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Speaker 1: Hi, Curse Up listeners, I know you miss me on

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Speaker 1: your feed. Don't worry. We're working on an all new

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Speaker 1: season of Curse Of coming out later this year. In

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Speaker 1: the meantime, if you can't stop thinking about the shocking

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Speaker 1: stories you heard about America's Next Top Model, you'll definitely

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Speaker 1: want to check out our new docuseries from E Dirty

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Speaker 1: Rotten Scandals. In the series, you'll hear from the America's

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Speaker 1: Next Top Model participants you heard from on Curse Of,

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Speaker 1: and a few you didn't like former A and TM

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Speaker 1: judge Janis Dickinson. Dirty Rotten Scandals unveils the dark underbelly

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Speaker 1: of the long running TV series through the untold stories

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Speaker 1: of former contestants, and shows what happens when a golden

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Speaker 1: opportunity for aspiring models unravels into a harrowing saga of exploitation,

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Speaker 1: shattered dreams, and resilience. You can find the two part

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Speaker 1: docuseries Dirty Rotten Scandals America's Next Top Model on E Network.

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Speaker 1: Check your local TV provider schedule.

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Speaker 2: Want to be on some.

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Speaker 1: You want to be a Welcome to the Curse of

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Speaker 1: America's Next Top Model. I'm Ridget Armstrong. Anybody else feel

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Speaker 1: gas lit after watching Tyra in the new Netflix Dockey series.

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Speaker 3: It was a time in the world where there was

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Speaker 3: a show fear factor and survivor and all of these

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Speaker 3: things of like pushing the limits and all of that,

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Speaker 3: and so we kept pushing, and we kept creating more

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Speaker 3: and more and more.

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Speaker 1: You guys were demanding it.

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Speaker 3: The viewers wanted more and more and more.

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Speaker 1: Reality TV is a bitch. If it doesn't bleed and lead,

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Speaker 1: then it doesn't work. Everybody seems to be talking about

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Speaker 1: A and t M right now because of this docu series.

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Speaker 1: It's called Reality Check Inside America's Next Top Model. And

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Speaker 1: this isn't just a this is an ANTM reckoning. There's

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Speaker 1: the Netflix docuseries, there's, of course this podcast. And our

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Speaker 1: production company, Glass Entertainment Group has been working on another

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Speaker 1: docuseries called Dirty Rotten Scandals America's Next Top Model, a

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Speaker 1: title that leaves no room for interpretation, and just like

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Speaker 1: A and TM, Dirty Rotten Scandals is Appointment Television. It

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Speaker 1: premieres on E on March eleventh at nine pm Eastern Time.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna come back and do another bonus episode with

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Speaker 1: one of the producers from Dirty Rotten Scandals. Once y'all

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Speaker 1: get a chance to watch it. But while we're all

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Speaker 1: still reeling from Netflix's docuseries, I wanted to hop back

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Speaker 1: on the mic to process my thoughts. We're currently working

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Speaker 1: on Curse of Season two is coming out later this year,

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Speaker 1: but for the last week or so since Netflix dropped

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Speaker 1: this docuseries, my editor and I have not been able

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Speaker 1: to stop talking about A and TM, a subject we

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Speaker 1: thought we put to bed last year. So I invited

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Speaker 1: my editor to me for a little debrief, and guys,

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Speaker 1: we had so much to talk about. We're actually going

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Speaker 1: to break this conversation up into two parts, so joining

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Speaker 1: me now. You've heard her name all the time in

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Speaker 1: the credits, the one and only Monique la Board.

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Speaker 4: Hey, Bridget, I'm thrilled to be here on the MIC

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Speaker 4: with you. This past season working on Curse Of, it

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Speaker 4: was you and me in the trenches listening to and

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Speaker 4: watching old episodes of A and TM, shaping the episodes

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Speaker 4: we made for the podcast, selecting the right clips, you know,

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Speaker 4: building episodes around the interviews that you conducted with the models.

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Speaker 4: But I feel like we both gained so much, like

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Speaker 4: isoteric knowledge about this show, and it's really wild now

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Speaker 4: to see everyone on the same page as we are.

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Speaker 4: And before we get started on this bonus episode, we

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Speaker 4: need to say spoiler warnings. Spoiler alert. If you have

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Speaker 4: not seen the Netflix doc and you want to see it,

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Speaker 4: you should pause go watch it. If you're like I

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Speaker 4: know everything already from this podcast and you don't want

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Speaker 4: to watch the Enough Stock, then we'll.

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Speaker 2: Get you up to speed.

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Speaker 4: This can be your TLDR of the Netflix stock. But

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Speaker 4: just so you know, spoiler warning starting now, Yeah, you know, bridget.

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Speaker 4: One thing that jumped out of me immediately was the

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Speaker 4: amount of parallels and synchronicities that came up in the

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Speaker 4: Netflix Stock and with our podcast. That was weird to

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Speaker 4: hear and to see it all in video when we

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Speaker 4: had made something really similar.

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Speaker 2: What was your reaction to that?

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Speaker 1: Honestly, I was like, they jacked our shit, that was right.

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Speaker 1: I was like, hey, listen to our podcasts and they

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Speaker 1: are doing it in the Netflix ACI series. But so

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Speaker 1: for me, the biggest one was the starting with that

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Speaker 1: we were rooting for you moment, and at first I

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Speaker 1: was like, Okay, that's actually one of the biggest moments

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Speaker 1: of the show. So they could just be a coincidence

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Speaker 1: that we both started there. But then yeah, there were

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Speaker 1: a lot of like archival pieces, even some of the pieces,

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Speaker 1: the things they were saying about like it being a

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Speaker 1: Cinderella story, and that was like a big through line

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Speaker 1: for us. Yeah, I saw a lot of similarity, but

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Speaker 1: there was a point where it diverged and they got

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Speaker 1: into a story that we actually didn't talk about that much,

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Speaker 1: and that was Shandy story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And Shandy's story was really really heartbreaking and it was

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Speaker 1: really really hard to watch on the docu series.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we're going to get into that more in this

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Speaker 4: bonus episode. I'm really was glad in a way that

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Speaker 4: they put it in the Netflix Dock that she got

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Speaker 4: the space to say that and the people are paying

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Speaker 4: attention to that.

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Speaker 2: Because when we were producing.

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Speaker 4: Our podcast, like you said at the beginning, our production

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Speaker 4: company is working on its own documentary. It's coming out

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Speaker 4: in a few weeks, So we had access to some

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Speaker 4: models to interview, but not all of them, and Shandy

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Speaker 4: was one that was attached to the Netflix Dock, so

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Speaker 4: we didn't interview her. Didn't that was new information for me.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know that she was sexually assaulted.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's for sure. I mean in the documentary, Shandy

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Speaker 1: doesn't call it sexual assault, maybe even for legal reasons

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Speaker 1: we don't know, but that's clearly what it was. She

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Speaker 1: was blackout drunk, she couldn't give consent, and in the

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Speaker 1: docuseries you see Shandy describe how awful the whole experience was,

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Speaker 1: and you can tell she's still living with the trauma

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Speaker 1: to this day. She gets really really emotional. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it's seeing that was shocking because you know, we've been

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Speaker 1: in the trenches on this show and we know the

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Speaker 1: terrible things that were happening behind the scenes. But it

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Speaker 1: was really really hard to watch.

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Speaker 4: Mo.

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Speaker 1: Were there any other things about the docuseries, like any

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Speaker 1: other moments or just anything in general that shocked you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean.

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Speaker 4: We didn't have access to interviewing Tyra, Ken and the Jays.

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Speaker 4: I really liked that our podcasts focused more on the

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Speaker 4: model's experience, but hearing directly from Ken, Tira and the Jays.

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Speaker 2: I mean, in particular.

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Speaker 4: About the fallout that happened between the Jays and Tyra.

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Speaker 4: That was new insight. And we had this question about

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Speaker 4: is Tyra a villain? And I think for me that

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Speaker 4: question was answered watching this Netflix doc in a way

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Speaker 4: that was really disappointing.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, what about for you? What stood out for

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Speaker 2: you right off the bat?

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, that Tyra's a villain for sure. Like

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Speaker 1: if there's any question, this certainly underlined that she is.

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Speaker 1: Because I was I wasn't again, I wasn't shocked, but

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Speaker 1: I was a bit surprised at how unapologetic Tyra was.

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Speaker 1: You know, she's been criticized a lot about her actions

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Speaker 1: on the show and all the things the show did

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Speaker 1: to the women who participated since twenty twenty, right, and

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Speaker 1: so she's been hearing these criticisms for the last five years,

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Speaker 1: and this felt like this was the one opportunity for

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Speaker 1: her to make amends or show accountability or something right,

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Speaker 1: and she just she just really didn't do that. She

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Speaker 1: repeated the same excuses that she's repeated over the last years.

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Speaker 1: We had clips of those same answers, versions of those

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Speaker 1: same answers and other interviews she did four or five

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Speaker 1: years ago, and she repeated those same talking points. It

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Speaker 1: was a different time. This is what you guys wanted,

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Speaker 1: this is what the audience wanted, And you know, it

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Speaker 1: just showed that she really lacks self awareness because even

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Speaker 1: if a person is not sincerely apologetic, right, I think

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Speaker 1: that even the pr INU wants to come off like

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Speaker 1: you are, and she doesn't really try to do that either.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I wasn't shocked, but I was very surprised.

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Speaker 1: My biggest reaction is like, Wow, Tyra really doesn't get

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Speaker 1: what's going on, and I don't think she gets or

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Speaker 1: she understands how people truly feel about her now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And there was something about seeing her face confronted

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Speaker 4: with it right next to the side by side of

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Speaker 4: the model talking about the lifelong impact it's had on

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Speaker 4: them that was really hard to watch and looked bad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I think on Netflix this part it

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Speaker 1: was also really effective because I got a sense that

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Speaker 1: maybe Tyra agreed to do the Netflix docuseries for her

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Speaker 1: own reasons, right, to promote something or to make her

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Speaker 1: image look better.

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Speaker 2: To promote something.

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Speaker 4: We don't know what it's gonna be yet, and if

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Speaker 4: it's gonna be on Netflix.

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Speaker 1: Tell out something. Wait wait right, So I get that

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Speaker 1: that's why she did this, right, but Netflix sort of

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Speaker 1: using her reaction, a really lack of reaction to some

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Speaker 1: of these terrible things and then either seeing the actual

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Speaker 1: scene or hearing some of the person that it affected.

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Speaker 1: It allowed them to sort of say that Tyra is

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Speaker 1: completely out of touch without saying Tyr's completely out of touch.

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Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? I do?

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Speaker 1: And I thought it was a really smart move on

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Speaker 1: their part to edit it in that way where she

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Speaker 1: may be here for this reason, but like, here's the reality,

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Speaker 1: here's there's a reality reality check. Here's the reality of

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Speaker 1: what happened to these women and how it affected them,

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Speaker 1: no matter how Tyra tries to spin it.

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Speaker 4: Okay, We're going to get more into Tyra later on

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Speaker 4: in this bonus episode.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I want to.

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Speaker 4: Start just by talking about the reactions that we're seeing

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Speaker 4: online and the reactions we're seeing from the models, especially

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Speaker 4: some of the most notable absent models in the documentary

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Speaker 4: like Tiffany Richardson and Adrian Curry.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So Tiffany responded right fac of four, Tiffany Richardson.

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Speaker 1: We talked a lot about Tiffany on our season. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I'm gonna read it, but she basically

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Speaker 1: called Tyra a lot of b words, including bully. That

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Speaker 1: including bully and some others you may know, and she

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Speaker 1: said that Tyra said some really nasty things about her

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Speaker 1: and her son, And that's something that we actually uncovered

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Speaker 1: in some of our reporting that, like what was aired

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Speaker 1: and that we were rooting for you speech, we just

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Speaker 1: got like a fraction of what Tyra actually said. And

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Speaker 1: I think he said, You've gotten that question a lot

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Speaker 1: from people too, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, when I've been you know, my friends know that

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Speaker 4: I worked on this series Cursed Of and so when

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Speaker 4: they're watching the Netflix doc they're like, Okay, wait, well,

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Speaker 4: actually was said behind the scenes of that we were

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Speaker 4: rooting for you speech. And we get into that on

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Speaker 4: episode seven of our podcast. I mean, no one wants

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Speaker 4: to repeat it. It's personal, it's cruel. The person that

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Speaker 4: we interviewed in episode seven was the sound guy, and

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Speaker 4: he told us that basically she was saying, you know,

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Speaker 4: go back to sleeping on the mattress with your baby

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Speaker 4: and essentially calling out Tiffany's financial status in a way

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Speaker 4: that was really personal and really cruel, especially from where Tira.

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Speaker 2: Stood in that moment. So that's something that we heard.

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Speaker 4: But I still don't even think that what we heard

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Speaker 4: in episode seven of our podcast was the full the

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Speaker 4: full speech.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely not. It wasn't And it's interesting because even now,

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Speaker 1: Tyra couches what happened with her and Tiffany as her

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Speaker 1: losing her cool on someone that she cared about, or

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Speaker 1: like a contestant that you really wanted to win, right,

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Speaker 1: and Tiffany has I mean, I think outside of her

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Speaker 1: post show interview, like when it was like back in

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Speaker 1: the day, Tiffany has always refuted that Tiffany said that

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Speaker 1: Tira did not care about her, and it showed in

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Speaker 1: how she treated her in that moment, but also in

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Speaker 1: other parts of the show. And I think that's really interesting.

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Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that Tyra's still sort of holding

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Speaker 1: on to that, you know, which is a pattern I

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Speaker 1: think with Tyra.

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Speaker 2: So uh huh.

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Speaker 4: I think someone says it in the Netflix doc like,

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Speaker 4: if you really cared about someone, you don't embarrass them,

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Speaker 4: you don't treat them like that, you don't say those

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Speaker 4: kind of things about them, period. So I do question

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Speaker 4: this whole narrative of, oh, she saw herself in Tifanio,

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Speaker 4: she cared about her, that's why she got so mad

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Speaker 4: at her.

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Speaker 2: I don't know about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. Some of the other models that were

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Speaker 1: not in the dock, but they're also in the eedoc

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Speaker 1: have responded and one of the things they're sort of

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Speaker 1: pointing out is they feel like the Netflix stock doesn't

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Speaker 1: focus on their stories and what happened to them. I

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Speaker 1: certainly think they do a great job of framing what

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Speaker 1: Tyra's done in context of like the human cost the

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Speaker 1: Netflix doc. I thought that the Netflix stock was pretty

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Speaker 1: hard on Tyra, but a lot of the models are like,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't go far enough, which has been interesting.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so I want to get into it because so

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Speaker 4: for us, we spent basically a year hearing this story,

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Speaker 4: and once we pulled the clips from the video, we

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Speaker 4: were just playing with them in audio, and we had

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Speaker 4: ten hours long episodes pretty much eleven if you count

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Speaker 4: the bonus, so we had more space in the podcast

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Speaker 4: to go in depth, but they had visuals. So I

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Speaker 4: want to start by talking about what it was like

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Speaker 4: for you to see it all on screen as opposed

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Speaker 4: to hearing it in audio.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So for me, I think one of the first

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Speaker 1: things that stood out was just how young everybody was

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Speaker 1: when they were on the show. We certainly talked to

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Speaker 1: people on Curse of you know. I think Kenya told

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Speaker 1: us that she taped her audition from her like Freshman

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Speaker 1: dorm right and Sharon, who was not on the Netflix

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Speaker 1: Sacusaties where we spoke with her, she told us she

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Speaker 1: was in high school. She talked about missing high school graduation, right,

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Speaker 1: And it's one thing to sort of paint that picture

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Speaker 1: in audio, but to see the clips of these young women,

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Speaker 1: these teenagers, when these things are actually happening to them

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Speaker 1: on the show, it's a little different and it really

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Speaker 1: hits home because I feel like there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who ask this question of why would anybody

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Speaker 1: sign up for this? Right, it's reality TV. Maybe you've

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Speaker 1: seen the show before, why would you sign up for this?

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Speaker 1: And I think seeing how young these women were when

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Speaker 1: they signed up really answers that question because a lot

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Speaker 1: of us have done things that we regret, or done

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Speaker 1: things we thought would be a good idea when we're young,

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Speaker 1: and you really see that like this is a high

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Speaker 1: school they're making a decision. This is a person who

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Speaker 1: was in high school two years ago who's signing up

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Speaker 1: to do something that's going to have this huge impact

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Speaker 1: on their life. So that for me was something that

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Speaker 1: really hit home with the docu series. And I think

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Speaker 1: a benefit of having the visuals. The other still on

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Speaker 1: the point of age, right, is how they look now.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a natural reaction for all of us.

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Speaker 1: I know when we were producing this right, Like, if

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Speaker 1: I knew we were talking about a model or we

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Speaker 1: were going to talk to them, one of the first

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Speaker 1: things I do was google them'm but go to their Instagram.

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Speaker 1: I want to know what they look like now. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's sort of an unintended curse that I

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Speaker 1: don't think we got into on the podcast. People will

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Speaker 1: always compare how you look now to what you look

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Speaker 1: like when you were on the show. It's this image

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Speaker 1: of you that's frozen. And I don't necessarily I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's a bad thing that people do it. It's

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Speaker 1: human nature before a person to always be judged against

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Speaker 1: like their eighteen year old self, foddy their eighteen year

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Speaker 1: old body. Yet it's hard and I'm I think even

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Speaker 1: well meaning people like it's just a natural reaction to

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Speaker 1: want to see how people look, right. And so there

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Speaker 1: was that, and then the other part of like seeing

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Speaker 1: how people look now is like, damn, we all and

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Speaker 1: I included me and because I'm like I was a teenager, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: watching y'all, and y'all were like eighteen or nineteen and

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Speaker 1: now all of us are old Like that was another thing,

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Speaker 1: and it's like we're reflecting from this point like twenty

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Speaker 1: years later and it's all of us. And that for

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Speaker 1: me was something that doesn't hit the same unless you

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Speaker 1: are looking at people, you know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the passage of time just visually on people's faces.

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Speaker 4: For me, seeing the images definitely hit different on some specifics.

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Speaker 4: Like we had talked about the two people, Joni and

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Speaker 4: Dan Evans, who had their teeth removed, and just describing

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Speaker 4: that is really different from seeing those scenes in the

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Speaker 4: dentist chair. I mean that was just physically visceral. To

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Speaker 4: watch it was like a horror movie. Just saying the

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Speaker 4: words they had their teeth removed, does and do it justice.

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Speaker 4: Another thing that's striking about seeing it visually is how

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Speaker 4: skinny some of them are. I mean, they look sick

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Speaker 4: and they're also telling us that they were sick.

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Speaker 1: Ya.

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Speaker 4: Of course when we were pulling the clips, we saw it,

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Speaker 4: but seeing it over and over again, and that montage

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Speaker 4: where we saw the models collapsing, struggling with heat strokes,

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Speaker 4: struggling to stand it just really brought home how physically

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Speaker 4: ill they were and still participating in this competition. And

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Speaker 4: it also makes you thank god everyone around them must

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Speaker 4: have been seeing that too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And it's also you see how thin they are while

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Speaker 1: they're being reprimanded for not being thin enough. That is

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Speaker 1: the other thing that drove it home, right, Like, it's

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Speaker 1: one thing when we describe because King is in our

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Speaker 1: pot on the pot, and King is also in this stock,

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Speaker 1: and it's one thing when we describe Kingya is being

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Speaker 1: really thin, right, and we get into all of that.

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Speaker 1: It's another thing to actually see how thin she was

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Speaker 1: at that time and then hear her talk about the

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Speaker 1: criticism she got about her body and how that affected

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Speaker 1: her and how that affected the sands, which is something

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Speaker 1: we talked about too. But yeah, that visual for me,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's one of the things, even describing how

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Speaker 1: people look now and how they look thin. It was

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Speaker 1: one of the things we actually struggle with, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: it's a show that is all about exploiting women's looks,

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Speaker 1: and we didn't want to like traffic in that as

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Speaker 1: well by getting too deep into people's looks, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: But there's also an element in which there's the curiosity factor,

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Speaker 1: which we just talked about, like you want to know

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Speaker 1: how people look then how they look now. But it's

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Speaker 1: also there's an element of like, sometimes you really need

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Speaker 1: to see how beautiful this person was who was being

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Speaker 1: told that they had too many teeth, or see how

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Speaker 1: thin they were who was being told, you know, you

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Speaker 1: need to lose weight. Were to really drive home and

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Speaker 1: make the point right, but then how many times can

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Speaker 1: you say she's tall and striking and beautiful, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean? She was, Yeah, tall, blonde, she was

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Speaker 1: a tall Burnett. You know that's you can only say

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Speaker 1: that so many times.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that was something that we went back and forth

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Speaker 4: with all the time on the podcast with how much

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Speaker 4: to physically describe them like you're saying, And we didn't

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Speaker 4: want to replicate the same thing that they were criticizing

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Speaker 4: the show for, which is they were reduced to what

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Speaker 4: they looked like.

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Speaker 2: And not the fact that they were people.

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Speaker 4: We also wanted people to remember, you know who we're

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Speaker 4: talking about if they had watched ANTM. We really just

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Speaker 4: landed on like describing them physically if it was relevant

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Speaker 4: to the scene that they were in or the larger

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Speaker 4: point we were making. I think that that's generally where

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Speaker 4: we net it out with describing them. It's not the

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Speaker 4: same describing someone in audio versus seeing them. And to

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Speaker 4: that point, there was something about seeing them on the dock,

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Speaker 4: especially when the documentary on Netflix brought up their family

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Speaker 4: photograph that we hadn't seen when we were watching ATM Like,

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Speaker 4: I'm thinking about Ebony and those pictures of her growing

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Speaker 4: up in the hair salon that really like humanized her

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Speaker 4: even more, brought her fullness to the story in a

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Speaker 4: way that was really satisfying because we didn't see that,

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Speaker 4: We couldn't show that in audio, So that was really

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Speaker 4: beautiful to see those those like archival photographs of the model.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and Ebony told that story about you know, being

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Speaker 1: told she was ugly when she was younger, but then

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Speaker 1: finding her beauty in her mother's beauty salon literally by

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Speaker 1: being told she was beautiful and then you see little Ebony,

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Speaker 1: and that it also for me, paints this picture of

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Speaker 1: like why these girls wanted to do it, Like you

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Speaker 1: can picture the little girl who dreamed of being a

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Speaker 1: model or dreamed of being seen as beautiful, and you

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Speaker 1: make it makes us I think a stronger connection to

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Speaker 1: the eighteen year old, a twenty year old young woman

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Speaker 1: who goes and tries out for this show, and it's

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Speaker 1: willing to do all of this stuff because she's really

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Speaker 1: just that little girl who wanted to be seen as pretty.

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Speaker 1: And I think we try to make that point, but

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Speaker 1: you're absolutely right seeing the actual picture of the little

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Speaker 1: girl in this case Ebony, and they had a few

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Speaker 1: other women. I think that they sort of did that

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Speaker 1: with Seeing that really to me helped sort of connect

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Speaker 1: who they were, who they are, who they were when

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Speaker 1: they did A and TM.

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Speaker 4: You know, something else that stood out to me was

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Speaker 4: seeing the CEO of UPN was a bit of a

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Speaker 4: visual surprise, like she's a very prim little white woman

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Speaker 4: with a blonde bob and these shoulder paths to the gods.

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Speaker 4: And I was when we were talking about UPN being

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Speaker 4: a network that the audience was mostly people of color,

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Speaker 4: I was not picturing this woman at the head of

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Speaker 4: the table when that decision was being made to green

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Speaker 4: light A and TM.

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Speaker 1: I was literally at my skin, like why are so

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Speaker 1: many white people who worked for UPN? Like that? That's

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Speaker 1: what I could not because I remember it being I

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Speaker 1: mean past our research right, like we looked into this

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Speaker 1: and like UPN did have programming that skewed towards black audiences,

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Speaker 1: but I remember it being a black network and so

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Speaker 1: I was shocked. I mean, I think UPN at the

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Speaker 1: time was owned by CDs, right, And there is some

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Speaker 1: talker we'll get into that about conversations that were had

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Speaker 1: with CBS execs. I think I expected on that level, right,

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Speaker 1: But I did not know. I didn't expect, Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: CEO of UPN to be like this little white woman.

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Speaker 1: It was interesting because Tyra and company had to fight

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Speaker 1: for diversity on ATM, and for me that was always like,

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Speaker 1: I don't really get it because it is a network

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Speaker 1: that is already known for diversity, so you would think

437
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,399
Speaker 1: they would want to lean into that. And sort of

438
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 1: seeing that, like, yeah, none of the execs actually looked

439
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 1: like the people that were hosting these shows or people

440
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 1: on any of the other UPN shows actually made made

441
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 1: it make a lot of sense. All Right, we're back

442
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 1: and I'm here with my editor Monique, and we're talking

443
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 1: about the new am docu series on Netflix. MO, was

444
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 1: there anything else visually that stood out for you while

445
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 1: you were watching the Dock?

446
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,680
Speaker 4: There was another thing about watching it which is a

447
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 4: point that we made in the podcast was that audiences

448
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 4: seemed to like watching, in particular beautiful women being tortured

449
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 4: physically and emotionally, like being dangled from high buildings, having

450
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 4: spiders put on their face, being freezing cold, having emotional breakdowns.

451
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 4: That audiences seem to like that, and seeing all the

452
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 4: archival strung together.

453
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 2: That was something that the show was profiting off of.

454
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 4: Was yeah, watching women in pain, and I felt personally

455
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,199
Speaker 4: implicated in having watched that in a way that I

456
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 4: hadn't before this this Netflix doc.

457
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agreed. I had that moment of like this

458
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 1: is absurd, Like you just see how ridiculous a lot

459
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 1: of these challenges were. But I will say this, I

460
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,479
Speaker 1: do think one of the benefits we had in hearing

461
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 1: it versus seeing it right is hearing people painstakingly describe

462
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,679
Speaker 1: what they were feeling and going to I'm thinking of

463
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 1: Sophie Sumner, who did the macau Tower shoot. She was

464
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,239
Speaker 1: the winner of the British Vagency. So Sophie describing what

465
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 1: it was like to be out on that ledge right,

466
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,120
Speaker 1: and the moments leading up to it, what Kim Mox

467
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 1: said to her, what Nigel said to her, feeling the rain,

468
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 1: feeling like she was gonna slip and fall, like all

469
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: of that sort of stuff that you can sort of

470
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,640
Speaker 1: explain in detail. I think it's one of the benefits

471
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,919
Speaker 1: we have in audio because seeing the clip of it,

472
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 1: sometimes those clips are like cut really short, right, and

473
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 1: so you just see I'm scared, like you see the

474
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 1: terror quickly and then it cuts to something else. But

475
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 1: you have to remember that like this entire time, the

476
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: stuff that we don't see on the shows, like they're

477
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 1: going through this so that you may see them on

478
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 1: that ledge for a minute or two in the actual show,

479
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,919
Speaker 1: but actually the shoot itself took twenty minutes, you know,

480
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: And that's the sort of things that you can describe

481
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: and like really drive home, I think, in but no

482
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: doubt it is wild to actually see how absurd some

483
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 1: of this stuff was. And yeah, just the terror on

484
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:09,360
Speaker 1: people's faces.

485
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 4: Let's talk about some of the new information that we

486
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 4: learned from the Netflix dock because they had some exclusive

487
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 4: interviews and information that we hadn't heard before.

488
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 2: So, yeah, where do you want to start.

489
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 1: The elephant in the room. They had Tyra kN Mock,

490
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: the Jays and Nigel. These are people we went after

491
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,120
Speaker 1: we of course reached out and tried to get them

492
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 1: for the pod, but they unfortunately declined or didn't respond.

493
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,919
Speaker 1: And then of course with seeing Jay Miss j we

494
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 1: learned some really sad news about what Miss Jay has

495
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: been going through. Miss Jay had a stroke and Miss

496
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: Jay has been recovering from that stroke for the past

497
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: few years. This was new information, This is now information

498
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: that came out in the dock, and you know, seeing

499
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: Miss Jay's is larger than life character, it was kind

500
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 1: of hard to see her in in this state on

501
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: the documentary. I don't know, what did you think?

502
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, for me, Miss Jay was kind of like the

503
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 4: emotional centerpiece of this dock and seeing her physically like

504
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 4: diminished because you were so right, like she was larger

505
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,479
Speaker 4: than life. She was the definition of fears and in

506
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 4: so many ways like she was this show really, especially

507
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 4: for me watching the show, she just jumped off the

508
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,479
Speaker 4: screen like she was so alive. She was so different

509
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 4: than anything we had ever seen on TV up to

510
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 4: that point, and so to see her, you know, and

511
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,360
Speaker 4: it seemed like she wasn't even really able to speak

512
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 4: that much. It seems like it was difficult for her

513
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 4: to speak in the dock and that was painful to watch.

514
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 4: But in a sense, I'm also really glad in the

515
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 4: documentary that we got to see her get her flowers

516
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 4: at least from mister J and Nigel. They all kind

517
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 4: of were a coalition, which was surprising to me that

518
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 4: at the end they all, you know, sat there with her,

519
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,360
Speaker 4: everybody except and Ken Mock, but they all sat there

520
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 4: with her and were, you know, supporting her and saying

521
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 4: you're gonna get back on your feet. That was definitely

522
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 4: emotional to see, just because of what she represented who

523
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 4: she was on the show.

524
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: It was a really hard felt moment and it was

525
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: in a huge contrast to what was said about Tyra

526
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: and Miss J. Tyra hasn't even called Miss J throughout

527
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: this whole thing, let alone, she hasn't gone to see

528
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: her nothing, and that I was, I was there. If

529
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 1: there's anything I was shocked by, I was shocked by that. Yeah,

530
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: I think everything else, I'm like, uh, this seems on

531
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: par with Tyra. But because of the way that she

532
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 1: presented her relationship with Miss J, we have to remember, like,

533
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 1: this is not just a person she knows from working

534
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: on A and T M. This is the person she

535
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: knew when she started out as a model, somebody who's

536
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 1: like basically been in her entire adult life and been

537
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: a part of these two things, these two huge things

538
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: that made her like wildly successful, and so for her

539
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: to not have reached out. One thing that drove home

540
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: for me was actually Miss Jay's reaction when asked, have

541
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 1: you heard from Tyra? You know, Miss Jay is shady Jay,

542
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: Miss Jay even on this dog was still a little shady,

543
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: But Miss Jay wasn't shady at all in that answer.

544
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: The answer was like no, not yet almost hopeful in

545
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 1: a way that was a little sad for me, Like

546
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: Miss Jay is still holding out for this person that

547
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 1: clearly she had this relationship with, this really important relationship

548
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 1: holding out for her for Tyra to like reach out

549
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: and show that she actually cares. And so that for

550
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,239
Speaker 1: me was like I was a little sad. Yeah, I

551
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 1: was a little like, Oh, mis Jay's not even being

552
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 1: shady about it, which I thought meant that I thought

553
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,120
Speaker 1: it showed that Miss Jay was like really hurt that

554
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 1: she hasn't heard from Tyra.

555
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, seeing her at the end, Miss Jay being so emotional,

556
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 4: like there was a really deep pain in there, and

557
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 4: I'm sure, it's about this recovery that's been so difficult

558
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 4: on her, but it's also in the context of filming

559
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 4: this documentary and being around mister j and Nigel. You

560
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 4: only have so many minutes, finite amount of minutes in life,

561
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 4: and she spent so much of it on this show

562
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 4: and then to sort of be discarded by the figurehead

563
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 4: must be really really painful. Yeah, and j Manuel actually

564
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 4: posted an update since this documentary came out that Miss

565
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 4: Jay is back and walking and is able to walk now.

566
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 4: So that's an update that we didn't get to see

567
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 4: the documentary.

568
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: That's heartwarming. That's great. I want to see hopefully Miss

569
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: Jay stomping down some runways again, so I was happy

570
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: to hear that. One of the things I think is

571
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: interesting that they also got into about the j J

572
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: Nigel Tyra relationship that we didn't talk about as much

573
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: is the fallout, the fallout between Tyra and the Jays

574
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: and Nigel and how the Jays and Nigel were unceremoniously

575
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: fired from that show. Yeah, they were sort of blindsided

576
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: with being fired and that Tyer didn't really talk to

577
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: them that much about it afterwards, despite them having this

578
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: really long relationship and they were really hurt by it.

579
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: But one thing that came up for me thinking about

580
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: the way that they were fired in their public fallout

581
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: with Tyra is it has kind of shielded them from

582
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: some of the criticism because in watching this doc I'm like,

583
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: you know, certainly Tyra Hall's a bigger share of the

584
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: blame for this than they do. This is actually Tyra's

585
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: showed Tyra's baby, But a lot of the body shaming,

586
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: the negative comments that also came from these judges, and

587
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: because I think we sort of see them in some

588
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: ways is sort of victims of what happened on ANTM,

589
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: and they also were discarded, kind of saves them from

590
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: getting some of the criticisms that I think they partially hold,

591
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 1: If that makes sense.

592
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: It does.

593
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 4: I mean, having watched so many of the old seasons

594
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 4: to make the podcast, we know that all three of

595
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 4: them Ja Manuel, that's Jay Nigel said some horrible stuff

596
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 4: on camera that aired. We could make a montage right

597
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 4: now of all the things you know, that each of

598
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 4: them said, and they weren't being forced to say that stuff,

599
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 4: the body shaming stuff, just the cutting, mean remarks. So

600
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 4: for them to now be like, oh, we couldn't have

601
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 4: done or said anything differently from what Tyra wanted.

602
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 2: It's oh, it just it doesn't quite sit right.

603
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean even we spoke with that producer Andrew Patterson,

604
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: who was on later seasons of He was a producer,

605
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: a creative producer on later seasons, right, and he did

606
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: say that by that point, Jay Manuel was talent, right.

607
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: He would come on the set like they did a

608
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: lot of the creative. Andrew's team did a lot of

609
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: the creative. Jay Manuell come on set for its a

610
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: lot of times, shoot his scenes, do this, do that? Lead,

611
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: get a check? That's it, right, But that's later seasons, right.

612
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: The lore about this show is how hands on the

613
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: Jay's and Tyra were at the very beginning. Like, I

614
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: find that interesting because I think, well, there's a lot

615
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: of terrible stuff that happened all throughout ANTM until the

616
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: last seasons. Some of the worst some of the stuff

617
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: that people point back to did happen in those first seasons,

618
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: you know what I mean?

619
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 4: Yep.

620
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: And I'm like, that's when everybody admits that you guys

621
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: were hands on, and so now to sort of walk

622
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: it back and be like, oh, you know, I didn't

623
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: know what production did. I didn't know this, I didn't

624
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: know that. It just seems really disingenuous. And I understand

625
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: why you may not want to be associated with that,

626
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: or you may not want your legacy to be only that,

627
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: but I think in not addressing it, it then forces

628
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: people to like say, hey, wait a minute, why is

629
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: he off the hook? Which is what we're doing now.

630
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: So I don't know if it's working that well, but

631
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: I will say I think that the Netflix sock was

632
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: very kind to them in a way that I don't

633
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: want to say it's not fair, but in a way

634
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: that I just wish that they would have been pushed

635
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: a little bit more about some of the things they

636
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: didn't said.

637
00:31:47,080 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 4: Yep, speaking of new information, what we learned, especially from

638
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 4: the interviews with Tyra and kin Mock, was this question

639
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 4: that we reckoned with with like they said that they

640
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 4: were fighting for diversity Tyra and ken Mock, but what

641
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 4: does that really look like? And then kin Mack told

642
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 4: us about this fight that he and Tyra got into

643
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 4: with Les Moonveez, the CEO of CBS at the time.

644
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: This is something that Tyra brings up all the time. Mike,

645
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: It is her response to any criticism, and I see

646
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: why she uses it, right, because having a diversity on

647
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: A and TM was groundbreaking at the time and it

648
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: made the show really interesting. Right, And so we hear

649
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: Kim Mock and Tyra say that like this is something

650
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: they had to fight for. But in a doc they

651
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: tell this story in particular where they on the first

652
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: season wanted a Latina model to be one of the

653
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: contestants and Let's moonbe said no, which was shocking to me,

654
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: going back to like, UPN is the diversity channel, Why

655
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: don't you want diversity? So this is a point that

656
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: I think me and you were both trying to understand.

657
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: After less Moonbez vetoed having the Listina contestant, I read

658
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: that is that's when they started the search for Jazelle.

659
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: Remember when we talked to Gizelle, she said she was

660
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: like the last one cast, Like the girls were actually

661
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: already in the hotel, and Gazelle got cast and brought

662
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: on the show. But you read that it's a little different.

663
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was thinking that they were saying Gizelle was

664
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 4: the one they were fighting over and Tyra and kN

665
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 4: wanted her in and less Moonbez was the one who

666
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 4: was saying, no, I don't I don't want that person

667
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 4: on the show, and that in the end, she did

668
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 4: make it in because of you know, and they say,

669
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 4: like I think Kim Max says, it almost got physical

670
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,479
Speaker 4: this fight between Tyra and Les Moonveez, and so they

671
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 4: don't go into the specifics on the dock of who

672
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 4: that person was that they were fighting over, but like

673
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 4: it does sort of bring to life this thing that

674
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 4: Tyra says over and over again, like you were saying,

675
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 4: she's always like we had to fight for diversity and representation,

676
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,719
Speaker 4: and then we don't ever get the follow up of

677
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 4: what that looked like.

678
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and it's one of those things where I could

679
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 1: almost see Tyre feeling like like this is a part

680
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:15,919
Speaker 1: of the show. This is a thing that she fought

681
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 1: for that actually really was good. And I do think

682
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: it's it is a good thing that A and TM

683
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 1: did by showing this diversity within beauty right, But it's

684
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: almost like sometimes you can think because you did one

685
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: thing right, you did everything right, like you got this

686
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: one thing right, that doesn't mean that like you're not

687
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: accountable for all, Like yes, you brought on black and

688
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: brown women, women of different sizes, but you also treated

689
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 1: them all really badly, so it doesn't really absolve you

690
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: by like bringing on a diversity. But the other thing

691
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: to me was like, had less Moonves and the other

692
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 1: execs won this battle against diversity, what A and TM

693
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: would have looked like. First of all, I think it

694
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 1: would have been like really boring, right Like, I think

695
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 1: part of the interesting thing was that everyone was so diverse.

696
00:34:58,120 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 1: But two, I was like, it really would have looked

697
00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: like Tyra, a black woman, Ja the two J's, two

698
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: men of color. It would have looked like them sort

699
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: of being in service of like making turning these like

700
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: white women into models, which I thought would have been

701
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 1: like really bad for the optics. And it just sort

702
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: of to me, I was like, oh, so, like execs

703
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: really don't know what they're talking about. Sometimes. I don't

704
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,800
Speaker 1: think I would have been a fan, right Like, I

705
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 1: loved rooting for the girl who looked like me, And

706
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: my favorite season was I think season three, and that

707
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: was at that point the most diverse season they had had.

708
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: So I'm just like, ah, that would have been a

709
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: really bad decision, you know.

710
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, that is something we talked a lot about

711
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 4: in producing the podcast was one of the best contributions

712
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 4: of this show to broader culture is the diversity that

713
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 4: they and representation that they did put on camera, in

714
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 4: particular the LGBTQ plus diversity in a time when that

715
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 4: was not a thing that we saw on television. And

716
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 4: like for me, as I'm gay, watching this show as

717
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 4: a teenager, seeing lesbian representation was huge, huge, And we

718
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 4: saw with our story in our episode with Isis how

719
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 4: much she has heard from in particular trans women, saying

720
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 4: that seeing her on television was like a life saving representation.

721
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 4: So I don't think we can minimize how important that

722
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 4: was that the show ended up looking like that. But

723
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 4: at the same time, like we talked about in our episode,

724
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,240
Speaker 4: the people who were actually on camera experiencing that didn't

725
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 4: necessarily have a positive experience in the moment with the

726
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 4: way they were treated on set, the way they were tokenized.

727
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 2: Do you want to talk about Ebonie? That was new

728
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:42,240
Speaker 2: information we learned.

729
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't realize this when we were doing the pod.

730
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: We talked about Ebonie and Ebanie was on season one,

731
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: Ebnie's lesbian. Ebnie's girlfriend came to visit and they made

732
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 1: this cute moment, and we went all in on that, right.

733
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: What I didn't realize was that Tyra outed Ebonie. Ebanie

734
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,720
Speaker 1: talked about this and the Netflix stop that when Tyras

735
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: says that I saw ebone, you're gay. This was our

736
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 1: first introduction, and Ebanie did not know that that was

737
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: how the show was going to introduce her sexuality. And

738
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: so that just sort of goes to show that like, yes,

739
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: we want diversity, Yes we want to show all different

740
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: kinds of people, but we want to do that we

741
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 1: want to use it in a way where we're like

742
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: exploiting and manipulating your differences on the show. I read

743
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 1: it as like, oh, this is just a thing about

744
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: her and she's in on us knowing this about her,

745
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: And to find out that it wasn't was like, wow, So,

746
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: like y'all really didn't have any concern for these girls.

747
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, she was not consulted in not being part of

748
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 4: her storyline on this huge television show, and she must

749
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 4: have told the producers or the psychualuators that and then

750
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 4: it just then the cameras are rolling and Tyra says it,

751
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 4: I mean, to Ebanie's credit, I think especially for the

752
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 4: time looking back, on that season. She rolled with it

753
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 4: and she was really We saw her like keep her

754
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 4: head up the whole time, but knowing that she wasn't

755
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 4: involved in that decision for that to be part of

756
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 4: her storyline, it's like representation at what cost? You know?

757
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And that was one of the things we said.

758
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,879
Speaker 1: A and TM got right the way that they talked

759
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,760
Speaker 1: about ebone sexuality, like them bringing on this cute moment

760
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: with the girlfriend and everything, and so it really changed

761
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: my perspective hearing that she was out it because I

762
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: was like, oh, so they just treated Ebone like crap

763
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: the whole time. There's nothing that got right about it, right,

764
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: because they also get into and this is something we

765
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: got into, was Ebene's edit them talking about her being ashy,

766
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: talking about her skin being rough. I don't even think

767
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: we use the word ashy on the pod, Like, I

768
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: don't think we got into like the connotations of that

769
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: word specifically. And Ebanie talks about how much that hurt

770
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: her and it was really and this was something you know,

771
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,919
Speaker 1: One of my favorite episodes was our episode the Race

772
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 1: slop Card, where we also get into like the dynamics

773
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: of Tyer being a black woman and the way she

774
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: treated black women on this show. Hearing Ebany talk about

775
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: that and talk about how she expected to be protected

776
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 1: for me was like a really hard thing to listen

777
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: to because I can imagine being like a you know,

778
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 1: early twenties, like twenty one year old young woman who's

779
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: going on this show and you may know how the

780
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: world might, how the rest of the world might react

781
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: to you as a black woman, right, But because you

782
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: have this black woman who says she's a champion of

783
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: diversity heading this show, I could see going on there

784
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: and expecting at least for her to look out for you.

785
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,399
Speaker 1: And so that was heartbreaking. But it also was like, dang,

786
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: when you even try to give A and TM a

787
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: bit of credit somehow you find out that credit isn't

788
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:40,280
Speaker 1: even due.

789
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:45,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, So maybe the biggest new piece of information

790
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 4: that we learned in the stock You mentioned it at

791
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 4: the beginning is Shandy Sullivan's story.

792
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 2: Shandy from season two.

793
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 1: So Shandy's story was one of the ones that was

794
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 1: really really disturbing on A and TM. Shandy was on

795
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 1: season two. We had this situation where we see Shandy

796
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 1: get drunk, some guys are invited over. They're on the

797
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,879
Speaker 1: international trips and some guys that are helping them while

798
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: they're on this trip, and these guys come over, they

799
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 1: get in the hot tub, things go too far, Shandy

800
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 1: cheats on her boyfriend and we see this horrific call

801
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: where sh that Shandy makes to her boyfriend back home

802
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: to tell her she's quote cheated. But the information we

803
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 1: found out in this dock is that, actually, I mean,

804
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: when you with our understanding of what assault is like,

805
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: it's obvious that this is what's happening. Right, Shandy was

806
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: blackout drunk, this man sexually assaulted her, and the cameras

807
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: filmed the whole thing. They filmed the assault, they filmed everything.

808
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: And remember we talked about this on our on our podcast,

809
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 1: there was a rule that if two or more people

810
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: were in the shower in the bathroom at the same time,

811
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: the cameras get filmed. And Shandy was in the bathroom

812
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 1: with the guy. It's framed as, Oh, they invited these

813
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: guys over and Shandy couldn't hold her liquor and she

814
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 1: did this thing. She made this mistake, right, But what

815
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 1: we find out in the dop is that this wasn't

816
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 1: just like, oh, a random meetup this is something the

817
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 1: producer set up. The models were asked, hey, how do

818
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: you feel about having these guys come over right? That's

819
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:28,280
Speaker 1: something Shandy confirms, And in our research for the pod,

820
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: we also found that like producers would set up these

821
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: types of situations and stir the pod, and so it

822
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 1: makes it even more insidious that, like they set this

823
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 1: situation up, they watch it unfold. They watched her clearly

824
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: drink way too much to give consent, and then filmed

825
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,800
Speaker 1: her assault. That's it's sick.

826
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:50,479
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

827
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 4: The moment where she's talking about the camera person apologizing

828
00:41:54,120 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 4: for having had to film that. Yeah, that is one

829
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 4: of those moments where you wonder why people didn't walk out,

830
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 4: Why people working on this series didn't say I can't

831
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:08,879
Speaker 4: do this, I don't want to do this, I don't

832
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 4: want to be part of this. It's just flat out unacceptable.

833
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 4: The fact that these guys were invited over there. The

834
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 4: fact that this is a set, This house was a set,

835
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 4: There were producers there, there were film crew there, and

836
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 4: nobody working that night thought to say, hey, let's go

837
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 4: cameras down, let's take Shandy to another room. She can't

838
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 4: consent to this. The fact that that didn't happen. The

839
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 4: cameras kept rolling and then, oh my god. In the

840
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,240
Speaker 4: dock on Netflix to see her, they played an archival

841
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 4: clip where she was brought on The Tyra Show and

842
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 4: essentially forced to watch that scene replayed in front of

843
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 4: a studio audience, and she is saying to Tyra, I

844
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 4: can't look at this, and then we see her interview

845
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 4: for the Netflix dock saying I was told that wasn't

846
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 4: going to be played, a not to be played, and

847
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 4: it was played again. It's just a level of the

848
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 4: mistakes were made over and over and over again. It's

849
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 4: not like this was one mistake that happened from the

850
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 4: production crew. This was a series of like twelve mistakes

851
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 4: that are inexcusable.

852
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: And one of the things I was also disturbing in

853
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: the Netflix stock was Tyra and Kim Mock's reaction when

854
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: they were asked about what happened with Shandy. We find

855
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 1: out in the Netflix dock right that there was even

856
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 1: more footage from the fallout of what happened to Shandy.

857
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: So they taped her after the call. While she was

858
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 1: crying in the fetal position after the call with the boyfriend,

859
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: they told her she needed to go to the hospital

860
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: to be tested. She need to go to a clinic

861
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: to be tested, and they filmed that too. Now we

862
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: find out about this information, why because Kim Mock uses

863
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,959
Speaker 1: it as this point to make that like, see, we're

864
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: not you know, we're not that bad, because they cut

865
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: it out like it's almost as like, oh yeah, like

866
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 1: we could have shown all this other terrible stuff that

867
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: we shouldn't have filmed at all, but we didn't because

868
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 1: that's when I drew the line, And that, to me

869
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: just showed that like there's still a lackative accountability about

870
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: what happened to her because none of it should have

871
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: filmed and it shouldn't have actually happened.

872
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 4: And I don't buy Tyra saying she doesn't remember this.

873
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 4: We know from those early days that she was very

874
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 4: hands on in those seasons. She was in the editing

875
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 4: bay day in and day out, and she later brought

876
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 4: Shandy on her show, The Tyra's Show and did that

877
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 4: interview where she made her watch this clip again and

878
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 4: talked about it with her. I don't believe that Tyra

879
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 4: doesn't remember what happened there.

880
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 2: I think that was a really convenient excuse for her.

881
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 1: I also think she should have made it her business.

882
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: She made this comment that was like production wasn't really

883
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: my territory, And I'm like, this happened on season two, right,

884
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: And even if you don't know all the details, and

885
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:04,760
Speaker 1: even if you don't have the information you had today,

886
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: something about that doesn't look right. Just the idea of like,

887
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,760
Speaker 1: girls are coming on your show and they're getting really

888
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 1: really blackout drunk and engaging in sexual activity that they

889
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: can't consent to, right, That's something as the host of

890
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 1: the show, I would have made it my business to

891
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: find out what happened. That's something that when I came

892
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: to this interview with Netflix, I would have had an

893
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: answer ready to talk about what happened, because I'm just

894
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 1: like the fact that you have come on here and

895
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:30,720
Speaker 1: you still don't have an answer for this thing happening

896
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,919
Speaker 1: on your watch, to me just shows like a true

897
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: lack of care, Like you actually so because you don't

898
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 1: care what happened, or it's because you don't want to

899
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 1: admit that something happened on your watch, possibly opening you

900
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 1: up to a lawsuit. Who knows, But yeah, that was

901
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 1: weird because I'm like, girl, it's literally like like almost

902
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 1: twenty five years later, why don't you know what happened yet?

903
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 1: Like you should have found this out.

904
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 4: But at some point, yeah, I think you're on the

905
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 4: something there with the law suit, that that might be

906
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 4: one of the reasons that she is claiming feigning like

907
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 4: she doesn't know and saying, oh I had I had

908
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 4: no control over this situation, because if she were to

909
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 4: take accountability for it, then she could be opened up.

910
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 2: That could open her up for a lawsuit. But you

911
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 2: just you can't have it both ways, where you.

912
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 4: Say I was involved in every minute of this show,

913
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 4: this was my show, I was in control of it,

914
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 4: and also, oh, this horrific thing occurred and I have

915
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 4: no knowledge of it, Like you can't.

916
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:32,320
Speaker 2: Have both.

917
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: Okay, So we're gonna pause here and come back with

918
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: part two where we finished this conversation. In the next part,

919
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,359
Speaker 1: we're breaking down everything we heard from Tyra and Ken Mock,

920
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: and we'll explain why we think Tyra is a villain.

921
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 1: So look out for part two of this conversation. It'll

922
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: be in your feed in the next few days. The

923
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: Curse of America's next top model is a production of

924
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: Glass podcasts. Vision of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with

925
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,800
Speaker 1: iHeart Podcast. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass,

926
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: hosted and senior produced by me Bridget Armstrong. Our story

927
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: editor is Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman and

928
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: Andrea Gunning. Associate producers are Kristin mel Carey and Curry Richmond.

929
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 1: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio

930
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: editing and mixing on this episode by Matt del Vecchio.

931
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: The Curse of America's Next Top Model theme was composed

932
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by my Music and

933
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,

934
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcast. Also check out the

935
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 1: et Glass Podcast Instagram for Curse of America's Next Top

936
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: Model behind the scenes content