WEBVTT - Mailbag: All of Your Golf Course Architecture Questions 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.520 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:04.920 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.960 And when I find my ball in a brid Egg, 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:11.880 Frida Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday Fridagg Bride Egg Lie, 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:13.640 I'm about ready to run off of the hump. 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.880 All right, Welcome back to another edition of the Fridaygg podcast. 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:44.040 Today's episode is brought to you by ourselves. Yes, that's right, ourselves. 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:46.560 It's brought to you by our Frida Egg pro Shop. 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:50.280 If you guys enjoy the podcast and are looking for 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:54.840 any type of new golf gear, loungewear, new print for 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:57.600 your office, go to the Frida Egg pro shop. You 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:03.000 Getproshop dot the Fridagg. We've got a pretty wide selection 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:06.160 right now. We've got polos, we've got hoodies, We've got 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:08.680 I think we've got crew necks. Yeah, we have crew necks. 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:12.199 We have t shirts, a wide array of things, probably 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:16.119 about seventy different courses in our print store. So if 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:18.800 you're looking for something to spruce up your home or office, 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:23.200 go check it out there. That's Proshop dot Thefridagg dot com. 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:26.480 And thank you for listening. Today's episode will be a 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:29.640 mail bag podcast. I've got Garrett Morrison right here. 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:33.000 What's up? How's it going? Ad read right off the top. Yeah, 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:33.520 move and. 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:38.200 Merch, Move and merch, move and merch. Talking golf architecture 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.360 on a long road trip, so this should be a 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:44.959 fun one. I'm excited to talk about something other than 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:49.720 professional golf. It's kind of been occupying the vacuum in 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:53.200 the golf world and it'll be nice change of pace 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:56.600 here to talk golf architecture. How's the trip end for you? 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:02.000 If you enjoyed your jaunt through the Northeast here. 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:05.120 This has been an incredible trip for people who don't know. 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:08.360 We started in Boston at an event that we held 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:12.720 called the Backyard at Essex County Club, which was sensational. 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.440 That course immediately goes into the top bucket for me, 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:20.440 I mean, just an incredible golf course. We've gotten to 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:22.760 play some other cool courses in the area as well. 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:26.600 As we were driving up to Rochester, which is where 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.160 we are right now, which by the way, is not 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:33.640 particularly near Boston, but in the midst of our drive 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:36.640 up we stopped at an incredible place called the Country 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.799 Club of Troy, which I admit I had never heard 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:44.079 of before, but it's a Walter Travis course outside of Albany, 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.200 and it's just really wonderful and I think that course 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:48.760 is going to stick with me for a long time. 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:53.280 So this trip has been really invigorating in some ways 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:55.760 in terms of the golf course part of it, and 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:59.240 really tiring in other ways because we've had long days. 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:03.280 We've been recordings, we've been going courses. But everything we're 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:07.320 doing we're super lucky to do. But we are starting 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:11.440 to run on fumes here. So thank you to everybody 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.160 for sending in questions because that really helps us kind 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:17.079 of generate a podcast out of nothing. That's what these 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:18.400 mail bag pods are all about. 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:22.480 Yeah, yeah, most of the teams on the road, so 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:26.160 putting together a podcast and getting it out there, and 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:32.480 it's lots of good questions. So do you have this 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:34.920 is actually a great question. Off the top. We've seen 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:37.000 a lot of blind te shots and one of the 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.680 reasons we had a golf course set up, you know, 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:43.600 situation at our last event was blamed. But you guys 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:46.960 on not having a bell or something, but blind te shots, 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:51.760 what's the best method for safety? Bells? Periscopes, nothing at all? 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:55.080 I think there's a wide array of this. I mean, 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:57.600 one of my favorite things is when there's like a 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:02.240 homemade periscope. I love the Paris well dun uh at 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:05.840 not dunbar ed ee. There's a there's like a regal 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.240 marine periscope for the first tea shot. 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:09.920 That's so cool. 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:13.320 I think periscope is by far the best amat. 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:16.960 Because then you can actually see people. Then you're your response. You, 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:19.840 the person who is hitting the t shot becomes responsible 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:21.880 for knowing whether you're hitting into somebody. 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:24.720 And because the problem with the bell is that somebody 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:25.640 might not ring. 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:28.359 It, that's exactly right. You can't really know and you 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:30.039 have to listen for it. You don't, you don't have 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:30.600 any control. 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:36.600 Yeah, exactly. So periscope by far the best method of safety, 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.560 and I think it's cool. I think it looks cool. 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:43.040 Somebody's gonna say that's so silly. One of my favorite 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:47.839 periscopes is that Spring Valley, like a twenty dollars course 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:51.719 north of Chicago, kind of on the Chicago Illinois border 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:57.240 or Chicago Illinois Wisconsin border Wisconsin Chicago. 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.680 Some people in southern Illinois might agree that there's a border. 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:05.440 There, but it's in Wisconsin. But but there's a like 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:09.200 a PVC pipe periscope. I don't know exactly how they 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:11.839 how you would make a periscope, how you fashion it, 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:13.520 but I think that's the right answer. 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:17.080 You know, where there's a periscope is the mines. Yeah, right, 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:18.880 there's a periscope at the mines and it was a 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:21.359 fun thing. The mines is where we held a joint 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:23.640 event with no laying up this year called the thirst Buckets, 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:26.200 a great public course outside of Grand rap INDs, and 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:29.760 they have a periscope on one blind t shot. I 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:32.520 think it's whole. I'm not exactly sure what hol it is, 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.200 but it's it's really cool. It's like a fun thing 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:37.520 that you can do during the round the bell though, 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:39.840 if you got rid of all the bells, what would 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:40.960 the content makers do? 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:41.880 Yeah? 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:43.919 I mean what would. 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:46.600 People can't rank the bell? How do you fill those shots? 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:48.920 Yeah? I don't know, I don't know. All right? One 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:52.839 another question, yeah, all right? This one is from Keith Roeble. 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:57.479 He asks, are we finally seeing a next generation of 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:01.279 architects getting new build work that seems relevant compared to 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:03.920 the Big Four? And by the Big four, I assume 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:08.240 he means Corn Crenshaw, Tom Doak and Renaissance Golf Design, 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:13.080 David McLay kid and Gil Hants. That's the big four. 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:17.159 I think so, And I obviously I think it's important 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:21.640 to be to know, like Fazio still gets lost your job. 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:24.279 That's exactly what I was going to say, if you 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:26.279 look at what's actually going on as opposed to what 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:30.320 gets covered in you know, alternative golf media or even 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:35.640 in mainstream golf media. Fasio Nicholas, all these architects who 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:38.000 have been around for a while still getting a lot 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:42.080 of work. Your local, your regional ASGCA architect is getting 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:44.120 a lot of work right now, and so it's not 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:46.520 just those four architects getting getting the work. But I 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:49.520 think what Keith is asking is among the crew of 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:53.320 kind of exciting young architects who seems to be prime 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:55.840 to break out, who would you be excited to see breakout? 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:58.400 I guess that that kind of discussion. 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:03.800 Yeah, I think it's been This is such a hard question. 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:08.000 So many people ask me about like who's the next guy, 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:12.320 Who's the or girl, who's the up and coming architect? 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:17.239 And one of the tricky things is, like we've seen 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:21.160 the young architects do restoration work for the buffs part 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:27.400 renovation work, restoration work of existing courses. And you know, 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:31.000 Rob Collins has built now two courses and nine or 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:34.040 three courses, two nine whole courses and an eighteen whole course. 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.440 I haven't gone seen the finished product. Landman, I've seen 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:40.440 Sweetens Gove, I haven't seen in this. You know, he's 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:45.720 one that has multiple courses. Like you're starting to see, 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:49.360 you actually have a body of work to go look at. Right. 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.679 A lot of these guys haven't built even their first 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:59.280 solo design. And I think restoring and renovating courses is 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:01.920 a lot different than building a golf course from scratch. 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:07.360 There are substantially more decisions and substantially more work. Is 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:10.960 it sexy work? Is it you know, sitting in a chair, 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:14.280 you know, talking through the strategy of a whole. No, 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.880 it's like permitting, it's it's construction. It's all the little 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:21.840 things that make your client happy and have a project 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:24.640 run on time, run smoothie. Like one of the things 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:29.040 that Bill and Ben, Tom and Gil and David all 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:32.840 do extraordinarily well because they've had so many chances is 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:36.120 the little things and run, you know, building a golf course, 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:40.959 so I think, you know, obviously on the short list, 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:44.560 you have like Kyle Franz, I know, has a few 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:50.080 solo designs in the works that that's exciting. You have 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:54.439 you know, Keith reb and Riley Johns, those are exciting guys. 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:57.880 Rob and Tad. I think Rob and Tad they're doing 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:01.920 brash stuff, right, They are doing stuff that is different 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:07.120 than what Gil, Tom and Bill and Ben are doing. 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:09.880 They are They're pushing the limit in their own way, 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:13.920 which I really appreciate. They're doing it their way, you know. 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:19.760 You know, it's it's moving earth and creating. It's not 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:21.560 building on the land. 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:26.080 They're not really in the corn Crenshaw tradition. Maybe they 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:28.640 would disagree with me about that. I'm sure they've taken 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:32.720 some inspiration from the corn Crenshaws and the Tom Doaks. 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:35.800 But you know what's really exciting about King Collins is 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:39.520 that they're coming from a different lineage, you know, working 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:44.000 for Fasio and being inspired by Mike Strants things like that. 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:49.240 It's a style of architecture that people who really are 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:53.800 into architecture, architecture nuts haven't been obsessed with I think 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:56.679 for a while. So some other young architects who might 0:09:56.679 --> 0:10:00.240 be exciting to see break out young. I'm you saying 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:03.280 in relative terms for golf architects young, I mean just 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:08.360 like maybe younger than fifty or sixty. But Brian Schneider, Yes, Blake, 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:13.040 Brian Schneider, Yeah, and Brian Schneider Blake Hunt currently building 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:16.360 a course called Old Barnwell near Aiken that looks like 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:17.560 it could be pretty exciting. 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.120 And like, so this is a perfect example, right, we 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:23.520 saw them. You know they've done Brian's done so much 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:27.320 restoration work. He's done so much new build with Tom. 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:32.720 And you know he did Brian and Blake, Brian as 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:38.400 the lead designer re renovated Lanark, really cool renovation and 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:41.160 now they're doing a new build, like you're going to 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:44.760 begin to see Brian Schneider original work. You know, he's 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:48.000 done so much. You know a lot of the work 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:50.720 he does for Tom is is you know a lot 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:53.560 of it is his work, but it's you know, under 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:55.920 the vein of Tom's routing. He's doing this all on 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:58.680 his own. You know, That's the exciting thing, right is 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:02.840 seeing these guys kind of get a chance and and 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.840 that's the big thing. There's enough work going around where 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:10.160 finally where the big names don't take all of the 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:14.920 really exciting new projects right there they have they can't 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:18.120 take on more work, if that makes sense. And like 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:22.320 I didn't list off a ton, but like it goes 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:26.440 down to people doing, you know, getting bigger restoration and 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:31.760 renovation jobs too, right, it's just building that momentum towards 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:36.000 I think we're getting getting to where we'll see younger 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:39.440 guys getting jobs over some of the some of the 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:42.360 you know, not old guard. They aren't old you. 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:47.040 Know, some of the we've been familiar with, yeah, getting 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:49.079 those jobs at the big resorts and stuff like that. 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:50.880 And sometimes it just takes one. 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:55.480 Course Mike Cocking. Mike Cocking and Ashley Me and Jeff 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:57.880 Ogilvie would be ones to watch. 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.120 And there they've got something in Minnesota, I believe in 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:03.960 Georgia that's yeah, right, coming up in the next couple 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:08.520 of years. Should we mention that or not? Okay? In 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:11.120 any case, we're going on to another question. Do you 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:12.280 have one queued up there? 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:14.679 I don't have one right now here. 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:19.559 One I'll throw you on. How can a lame This 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:25.200 is from Ryan Selhay Ryan Silave, one of those how 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:28.640 can a layman tell that a course architecture faux pa 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:34.160 has taken place? Example, given shrunk and green, how can 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:36.520 I tell that this is happening? So why don't we 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.640 like start with his example? How can you tell that 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:45.720 that a shrunken green on an older course is actually shrunken? 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:49.199 Because this is something that people often, even people who 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:53.160 are really familiar with their course, might not really notice, 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.960 and understandably so because they're used to the green being 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:00.440 whatever the current green shape is. So how can you 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:04.760 tell that something is smaller than it should be or 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:05.440 than it used to be? 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:09.920 Yeah? I think the big thing with that is looking 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:16.560 at the landform, right, yes, and what was constructed. So 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:19.920 if you have bunkers around a green, you'll usually have 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.400 shaping with a bunker and then that will tie into 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:27.520 the green. And if you see, you know, the face 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:29.680 and then there's a lot of rough a lot of 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:35.480 times that's a telltale sign. Now, some architects built bunkers 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.040 off of greens. This isn't always just right, but the 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:43.800 big thing, especially especially if you go around your course 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:47.200 and you see like a consistent you know, especially say 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:50.960 a Donald Ross course, right, you'll see a lot of 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:54.960 times backs of greens built up. Now those backs of 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:58.120 greens are built up and the green would push to 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:02.760 the edges of the build is the way they were 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.360 when they opened. Right, So if you see that the 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.120 backs of the green and then along the sides are 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:14.640 kind of built up and there's rough you know, I 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:18.960 don't know many architects just in general generally speaking, that 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:22.560 built like circular greens. And that's like a telltale sign, 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.760 like that's the number one telltale salige. Like not a 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:29.760 lot of architects built just circle greens. Right. If you 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:34.240 think of the way a water sprinkler you know, works 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:37.800 in your yard, you start to realize why something might 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:41.080 become a circle, right, it goes around in a circle. 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:45.080 And also from a mowing standpoint, mowing a circle is 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:46.840 easier than mowing a square. 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:50.120 It's just over time, the evolution of the green shape 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:52.520 is going to come in a little bit and you 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:54.920 woult you know, the greenkeepers won't notice it. 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:59.920 Like it's so easy, Like think about you're mowing your lawn, 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.400 but these people are mowing their these greens and they're 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:06.480 trying to be super precise a lot of times when 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:10.000 it's dark, and how easy it is to miss a 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:14.560 corner by a couple inches or you know, in some 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:17.760 cases you need to save money. How do you do that. 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:20.600 Let's cut down on how often we mow, Like you know, 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:23.840 there are all these little things. But over time, especially 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:28.680 especially in the southeast where you've got the bermuda grass, 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:31.200 like you've got this, you know, it's so easy to 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:33.960 miss a corner. Have that grow up, and then then 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:37.320 the next time you go around, you just don't think 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:39.560 that's part of the green. The other thing you can 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:43.600 look at is is sprinkler heads. That's a good sign, 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:46.160 but a lot of times sprinkler So sprinkler heads have 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:51.520 a lifespan of like thirty years and spring. Look at them, 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:54.000 See if they're new, See if they're old. If they're older, 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.240 that'll give you an idea. Like so if they're older 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:00.520 and they're thirty years old, right, you'll see where kind 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.880 of the greens were thirty years ago. Now those are 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:07.920 probably still smaller than they should be. Right. It's a 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.760 it's a tricky thing, like you know, and if you 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:12.800 want to get more into it, but if you're just 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:15.720 looking at it, I think like looking at like how 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:18.360 the greens built, how it's shaped right. 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:21.880 Yeah, especially on older courses. Look for where the green 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:26.600 pad is. There's usually some kind of green pad, some 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:29.960 kind of build and if the green's not out to 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.400 the edge of that, then it's probably a little bit 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:33.160 too small. 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.840 And then with like fairways and stuff, I would I 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:37.440 would start to look at like bunkers. 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:39.800 Yes, where the bunkers are they lost in the rough. 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:42.000 Fairways should usually be right out to the bunker. 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.600 Yeah, either the inside like either the at least the 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.880 inside edge of them. I don't know many architects that 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:51.720 are just like putting bunkers out in season of rough, 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:55.680 like maybe some might go inside edge, maybe some might 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:59.520 go middle, like, you know, there's all different. It's it's 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.120 always really tricky to tie in a bunker at a 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:03.960 fair away. Do you go all the way out to 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:08.680 the wide like I prefer wide in and out lines, 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:11.480 but others prefer other things. 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.320 So yeah, all right, So those are some nuts and 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:17.520 bolts for people. Maybe maybe your home course, maybe you're 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:21.439 looking for this kind of stuff that'll uh maybe that 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:23.840 maybe that'll help. But it's it's kind of a complicated thing. 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:26.040 The key is just going to see like a well 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:30.400 restored course and then comparing it to other courses. All right, 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:39.439 question from Shane Bacon. Yeah, what is the perfect restribution restribution? 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:43.960 What is the perfect restroom distribution on a golf course? 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:51.400 What holes? Multiple? I mean, first of all, two dudes 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:53.119 should not be answering this question. 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:58.040 Yeah, exactly. I I think I think every every six 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:01.040 holes seems like probably the them out right. 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.879 I guess, yeah, I mean I was thinking about it. 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:08.640 Three restrooms, but also like just put them. They need 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:11.560 to be located at gathering points where there's like multiple 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:14.760 different teas and greens. If the golf course has that, 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:16.760 that's probably where the restroom should be, right. 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:20.920 Yeah, exactly, all right, that's that's enough fun, that's enough. 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.880 Thank you for your question, Shane. Let's get another one. 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:30.639 Here's a big ee. What's your favorite green template on 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:34.800 a par three or short course? Are these green templates 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:38.600 more fun when you're hitting wedges opposed to long irons 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:39.720 in oh. 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.840 Man, I guess that's a that's a good question. I 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:46.560 mean there, but there are some templates like the Beertz 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.359 that are more fun when you're when you aren't hitting 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:51.879 a short club, right. The Beireritz is funny. 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:55.960 I think the Beers is a better green now for 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:59.879 par fives than it is for par three because like 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:02.040 you have to have the part three B like two 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:05.439 seventy to have a long hitter running it in. 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:08.680 Like a reachable par five situation. Yeah, hitting a three 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:10.880 wood in because. 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:15.080 Then it actually the one hit meadow Brook, which we 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:17.639 have had an event at the last two years is 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:21.159 Andy Staples redesign. It's a reachable par five and it 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:22.399 plays uphill. 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:23.800 Yeah, it's cool yea. 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:27.720 So it's likely even long long hitters are hitting uphill, 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:31.200 so your SHOT's naturally coming in flatter and running. 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:35.080 Yeah. We should probably tell people what a beer it's is. 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:38.600 It's it's that green. It's a long green with a 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:42.760 big trough running perpendicular to the line of play, kind 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:45.920 of through the middle, and the idea of the hole 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:47.840 is that you're hitting a long club, you kind of 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:50.760 run your ball through the through the trough to the 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:54.480 other side. So other other temples, I don't know, what 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:57.560 do you think, Like I'd love to see on a 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:02.240 short course like a double plat toe type green or 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:05.240 a maiden type green. These are both greens that have 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:09.960 like shelves, multiple shelves on different in different corners. Of 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:13.720 the green and then kind of this you know, gully 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:18.879 running through them in various different arrangements. I think that's 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:23.120 a cool template quote unquote for a short par three 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:25.920 because you can find a bunch of different pins, and 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:30.000 the difference between a really good shot and just a 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:32.840 good shot is pretty stark. Yeah. 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:37.520 I think just in general, greens that have a lot 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:41.440 of different options and options get thrown too much around. 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:44.679 But like the way to think about it is really 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:48.920 tough positions and really gettable positions and something in between. 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:52.359 I think something for a par three, a short part three, 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:57.160 particularly if you have a middle pin. If you can 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.640 put the pin right in the middle and you think, wow, 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:03.119 that's great pin, it's usually a really great green, like 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:07.080 at the bare minimum, and that goes for any green. 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:09.840 Like when you just throw the pin right in the 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:12.159 smack dab in the middle of the green and you're like, 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.560 oh wow, this is a pretty cool pin, that's usually 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:18.200 a great, great green because that means there's a lot 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:20.480 going on, right, It's not just a pancake. 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:25.160 Yeah, all right. Continuing on the theme of greens, Preston 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:28.480 Walford asks a lot of us know a great set 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:31.560 of greens when we play them, but struggle to explain 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:35.600 to the uninitiated what makes some greens better than others? 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:39.480 Most people I play with great greens strictly on conditioning. 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:42.360 What would be some things to look out for when 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:48.080 assessing a course's greens. So we actually just recorded a video, 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:51.359 a little preview of some future content, recorded a video 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:54.159 about caper Rundle where we kind of address this question 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:56.400 of what makes a great green, what makes a great 0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:59.199 set of greens? But just to break it down in 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:02.920 really simple terms, what are what do you think are 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:05.959 some criteria? What are some like simple things that people 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:09.000 can look for when they see their courses greens? 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:13.840 Yeah, I think variety is right at the top. So 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:18.000 different shapes, different orientation, And what I mean by orientation 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:22.520 is how does the green sit? Like what angle does 0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:26.840 the green sit that it asks you to be at? 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:31.639 Going back? So you know, do certain shots open and 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:34.760 with greens? You know, I'm talking about the bunkers and 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:38.640 the surrounds. Right, if every green is like bunker right, 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:42.240 bunker left, and it's straight on, you know, that's not 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:45.560 very interesting, right You're you're you're kind of it's kind 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:47.480 of asking you to do the same thing. But if 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:50.640 you can open, you know, one way with a hard 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:54.040 angle so that it's like, oh wow, it's really advantageous 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:57.639 if I'm over here on the right, Like a great 0:22:57.680 --> 0:23:01.159 way to you know, look at greens is to go backwards. 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:05.360 If you look at them from behind them and kind 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:08.159 of look back, it's like, okay, if the pin's over here, 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:10.600 I want to be over here. It would be easier 0:23:10.640 --> 0:23:13.440 to hit a shot in from here. And when you're 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:15.880 behind the green, it's really easy to tell this stuff, 0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:18.240 or if you take a photo from behind the green, right. 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:22.480 So I think the big thing for me with greens 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:24.560 is variety. You don't want all of them to be 0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:27.159 back to front. You don't want all of them to 0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:30.159 have You don't want all of them to be the 0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:31.640 craziest green you've ever seen. 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:34.360 That's right. You don't want all of them to be huge. 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:38.920 Yeah, because you want like, you want some subtle ones. 0:23:39.040 --> 0:23:41.600 I think, like one of the things I've I've thought 0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:46.000 about a lot, and I think, you know, Bill core 0:23:46.080 --> 0:23:50.760 and Ben Crenshaw are I think among the best to 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:54.480 ever do it. And one of the things I always am, 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:57.960 you know, kind of walk away with the courses from 0:23:58.280 --> 0:24:02.159 is like I say that's such a cool green so often, 0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:06.040 and I can count on one hand how many times 0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:08.360 I've looked at green and been like, wow, that that 0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:11.600 might be a little too much, right, Like, they have 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:14.399 such confidence. And one of the things that the confidence 0:24:14.440 --> 0:24:18.280 does is that those guys aren't afraid to build a 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:22.600 really simple green. And I used to think that confidence 0:24:22.680 --> 0:24:27.879 was building something bold and something big with crazy you 0:24:27.920 --> 0:24:32.760 know crazy, you know, undulations in it. But now the 0:24:32.760 --> 0:24:35.760 more I've thought about it, the more I've seen, I 0:24:35.800 --> 0:24:40.240 think that the really great architects have the confidence to 0:24:40.280 --> 0:24:45.440 build something so subtle and simple and know that it's great. Right, 0:24:45.920 --> 0:24:50.600 It's a pretty tame green with one feature. You know, 0:24:50.800 --> 0:24:56.200 it doesn't have seventeen little pockets, and it's this combined 0:24:56.240 --> 0:24:59.240 with this, with this, it's just oh, this is a 0:24:59.320 --> 0:25:02.320 cool green. Sight. You know, you have to play up 0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:04.560 to this rise and we're just gonna put a little 0:25:04.720 --> 0:25:08.120 little bump in this spot and it's going to impact 0:25:08.280 --> 0:25:09.560 every single pin on the green. 0:25:10.000 --> 0:25:12.560 Yeah, great does not necessarily mean wild. 0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:16.920 So so with that, like a mixture of those types 0:25:16.960 --> 0:25:20.199 of greens with some other greens like where where you 0:25:20.280 --> 0:25:23.480 need to spice up a hole, they all relate back 0:25:23.520 --> 0:25:26.800 to the hole, right, and you know, if the course 0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:29.480 is a little bit flatter, then you might see a 0:25:29.520 --> 0:25:32.320 little bit more juice in the greens. Right. If the 0:25:32.359 --> 0:25:34.840 course has a little bit more going on in the land, 0:25:35.280 --> 0:25:38.000 then sometimes like subtle greens are the right thing because 0:25:38.000 --> 0:25:40.600 you're doing so much to get to the green, right, 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:43.720 And I think that's the thing, is they it's hard 0:25:43.800 --> 0:25:47.320 to like say this is the you know, the greens 0:25:47.359 --> 0:25:51.280 relate to the site, because if the site is big 0:25:51.359 --> 0:25:55.040 and bold and has a ton of movement, you know, 0:25:55.080 --> 0:25:57.480 the greens. It's okay to have a little bit more 0:25:57.560 --> 0:26:01.600 quiet greens there because you know, everything else is you know, 0:26:02.119 --> 0:26:04.840 getting you there. But if the if the land's pretty 0:26:04.840 --> 0:26:07.879 flat and everything, you have to do stuff at the 0:26:07.920 --> 0:26:11.440 green in order to create the interest back right. 0:26:11.960 --> 0:26:15.920 Yeah, I totally agree. Variety is the watchword. And I 0:26:15.960 --> 0:26:20.880 think variety also applies to pin positions on greens. Right. 0:26:21.359 --> 0:26:25.040 So a good set of greens, sometimes they'll be simple, 0:26:25.119 --> 0:26:27.600 sometimes they'll be small. Maybe there won't be many pin 0:26:27.680 --> 0:26:30.480 positions on those greens, but there need to be some 0:26:30.680 --> 0:26:34.440 greens on the course where you can find different pin 0:26:34.520 --> 0:26:39.359 positions in different sections of the greens that are meaningful 0:26:39.840 --> 0:26:42.560 for the strategy of the hole. That change something about 0:26:42.600 --> 0:26:46.199 how you ideally want to play the hole. Right, So, 0:26:46.280 --> 0:26:49.840 I think a variety of pin positions on an individual 0:26:49.880 --> 0:26:53.280 green is a really important thing to look for. If 0:26:53.320 --> 0:26:55.840 you look at a set of eighteen greens and you 0:26:56.040 --> 0:26:59.480 see a bunch of greens where you can't really put 0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:02.280 the pin in a bunch of different places, or where 0:27:02.359 --> 0:27:04.800 if you're putting the pin in different places, it doesn't 0:27:04.840 --> 0:27:08.080 really change anything about the way you attack the hole, 0:27:08.480 --> 0:27:10.480 then you might be dealing with a set of greens. 0:27:10.520 --> 0:27:13.800 This is a bit too simplistic to be interesting over 0:27:13.840 --> 0:27:17.120 the long haul. So I think this idea of standing 0:27:17.160 --> 0:27:21.119 behind a green and looking back at the hole, looking 0:27:21.160 --> 0:27:24.280 at how it relates to the way the hole is played, 0:27:24.720 --> 0:27:27.840 is the most important concept here. So if you're trying 0:27:27.880 --> 0:27:32.080 to introduce somebody to how greens are designed, or if 0:27:32.119 --> 0:27:35.480 somebody's curious about that, then taking them behind a green 0:27:35.920 --> 0:27:38.520 looking at it as it relates to the hole, and 0:27:38.600 --> 0:27:41.880 talking about how different areas of the green might be 0:27:41.960 --> 0:27:45.160 pinned and how that might change things. I think that's 0:27:45.200 --> 0:27:47.800 the most impactful discussion that you can have with somebody. 0:27:48.240 --> 0:27:51.679 But I would definitely advise making sure that that person 0:27:52.480 --> 0:27:57.440 wants to hear what you're talking about, because just spouting 0:27:57.440 --> 0:28:01.840 off about golf architecture at somebody can sometimes not have 0:28:01.880 --> 0:28:04.960 the intended effect, Which leads me to this next question 0:28:05.000 --> 0:28:09.040 that I'm curious to hear your reaction to from Jason Shanahan. 0:28:09.760 --> 0:28:13.800 Really good question. How do you balance talking course architecture 0:28:13.840 --> 0:28:18.000 with people who really don't care without sounding like a 0:28:18.040 --> 0:28:21.000 pompous ass. Well, first of all, I suggest not talking 0:28:21.000 --> 0:28:23.320 to people about it who don't care about golf art 0:28:23.359 --> 0:28:26.000 course architecture, who don't like it, you know, just you know, 0:28:26.040 --> 0:28:29.560 talk about movies or talk about the bears or something else. 0:28:29.960 --> 0:28:32.680 Second of all, I would suggest that asking us how 0:28:32.760 --> 0:28:35.600 not to sound like a pompous ass, some people would 0:28:35.640 --> 0:28:38.840 say that we are not the people to ask about that. Yeah, 0:28:38.880 --> 0:28:42.480 But that said, do you have a response to this question, Anail? 0:28:42.840 --> 0:28:45.400 I talked with a lot of people about golf and 0:28:45.960 --> 0:28:49.280 you know, golf courses, and like, I mean, the biggest 0:28:49.320 --> 0:28:51.800 thing I think is just listen to people like I. 0:28:52.800 --> 0:28:57.640 Here's the thing I always think about. Golf courses to me, 0:28:57.800 --> 0:29:03.520 are a lot like restaurants. Okay, everybody has different tastes, 0:29:03.680 --> 0:29:06.960 and if everybody had the same taste, life would be 0:29:07.000 --> 0:29:13.600 pretty fucking boring, right, Like, so if I like one thing, 0:29:14.040 --> 0:29:17.560 if I like this restaurant and you know, my wife 0:29:17.640 --> 0:29:21.440 likes the other restaurant and doesn't like that one, like, 0:29:21.520 --> 0:29:25.120 I don't get like all snooty about it. I just say, 0:29:25.240 --> 0:29:29.239 that's weird. You know, I like that place, So like, 0:29:29.280 --> 0:29:32.840 why wouldn't apply the same thing, right And and like 0:29:33.800 --> 0:29:37.920 I'm fine giving my opinion on places. And I think 0:29:37.960 --> 0:29:42.160 this is an important like what would I say? What 0:29:42.240 --> 0:29:46.440 you say? What? Tom Doak says? What you know? Rhys 0:29:46.600 --> 0:29:50.760 Jones says, what It's all just an opinion. That's the 0:29:50.800 --> 0:29:54.840 beautiful thing about about it. It's art, it's it's to 0:29:54.920 --> 0:29:57.840 be judged, it's you know, you know, it's not everybody 0:29:58.160 --> 0:30:01.440 likes it. It makes different people people feel different ways. 0:30:02.240 --> 0:30:06.160 So I think the number one thing is just understanding 0:30:06.880 --> 0:30:10.480 that it's okay if somebody has a different opinion than you. 0:30:10.800 --> 0:30:15.760 And it's okay if somebody likes a said course. You know, 0:30:15.880 --> 0:30:17.840 in a lot of people, it's a hard thing to 0:30:17.880 --> 0:30:21.520 express why you like a course. I like to understand 0:30:21.560 --> 0:30:23.760 why I like a course. And I like to think 0:30:23.760 --> 0:30:25.800 about a golf course in a way that a lot 0:30:25.800 --> 0:30:28.959 of people don't think about courses, and that's you know, 0:30:29.280 --> 0:30:32.240 everybody plays golf for different reasons, and that's the beauty 0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:35.000 of the game. So that's what I would say, is like, 0:30:35.280 --> 0:30:37.640 if golf architecture is your thing, if you're listening to 0:30:37.680 --> 0:30:41.360 this podcast, it probably is, then like, yeah, that's cool, 0:30:41.400 --> 0:30:44.600 that's my thing. Like I've spent a lot of time 0:30:44.600 --> 0:30:47.680 with Garrett. Garrett's like a kind of a closet gearhead. 0:30:47.840 --> 0:30:53.120 I'm not so so, but like when Garrett starts picking 0:30:53.200 --> 0:30:56.320 up putters and fiddling around with them and talking about things, 0:30:56.560 --> 0:30:58.480 I don't, you know, I don't roll my eyes. I 0:30:58.560 --> 0:31:00.680 just listened to it and I might pick something up, 0:31:01.040 --> 0:31:03.920 you know. And I think that's the other thing is 0:31:03.960 --> 0:31:08.880 like I always approach caddying this way. And when I 0:31:08.920 --> 0:31:10.520 was like I was in high school, I was a 0:31:10.600 --> 0:31:13.520 high school golfer, I was playing AJGA tournaments. I was 0:31:13.560 --> 0:31:18.160 better than almost everybody that I candy for. But you know, 0:31:18.320 --> 0:31:21.200 you can't go in there with that mentality. You can't 0:31:21.240 --> 0:31:24.920 carry somebody's bag every day for eighteen holes knowing you're 0:31:24.960 --> 0:31:27.960 better than them and have that attitude of like I 0:31:28.000 --> 0:31:30.800 know more than about golf than you and be a 0:31:30.840 --> 0:31:34.840 good caddy. Right. The way I used to approach caddying 0:31:35.320 --> 0:31:39.200 was listen, Like, I know, I know way more about 0:31:39.200 --> 0:31:42.520 golf than this person, and I know I can tell 0:31:42.560 --> 0:31:45.400 them the shot they should hit, and they aren't going 0:31:45.480 --> 0:31:48.360 to listen to me. If I do, I'm not gonna 0:31:48.400 --> 0:31:53.320 do that. But something that this person says will probably 0:31:53.440 --> 0:31:56.360 help me understand the game of golf more because they 0:31:56.440 --> 0:32:01.400 might just understand something that I don't and something. It's 0:32:01.480 --> 0:32:05.640 the same thing with courses, right, Like somebody could love 0:32:05.760 --> 0:32:09.840 Reese Jones work and say something that I've never thought of, right. 0:32:10.320 --> 0:32:14.160 I'm not a big Reese Jones fan, right, So that's 0:32:14.400 --> 0:32:16.880 that's kind of my thing. It's just understanding that, like 0:32:17.000 --> 0:32:20.840 different different opinions, like and may this is just life advice, right, 0:32:20.920 --> 0:32:24.520 It's like different opinions. It's okay, it's not that end 0:32:24.560 --> 0:32:24.960 of the world. 0:32:26.120 --> 0:32:31.160 Yeah, absolutely, And knowing that everybody has something of value 0:32:31.280 --> 0:32:33.960 to contribute to any subject, even if it's a subject 0:32:34.080 --> 0:32:36.720 you know a lot about and that the other person 0:32:37.320 --> 0:32:40.920 might just be getting into. Sometimes that can be a 0:32:41.000 --> 0:32:44.880 really interesting conversation. Like I'm always fascinated to hear what 0:32:45.040 --> 0:32:48.239 my wife has to say. About golf courses, whether we're 0:32:48.280 --> 0:32:50.160 at a golf course or we see one on TV. 0:32:50.840 --> 0:32:54.760 Her reaction it might not necessarily be my reaction. She 0:32:54.880 --> 0:32:58.480 might not be noticing things that I usually notice. But 0:32:59.040 --> 0:33:02.280 it's it's interesting to me to hear what she has 0:33:02.360 --> 0:33:04.640 to say, and it kind of gets me out of 0:33:04.800 --> 0:33:08.640 my bubble a little bit to hear that. At the 0:33:08.680 --> 0:33:12.360 same time, can I reframe this a little bit, because 0:33:12.360 --> 0:33:14.640 I think it's I think you have to do something 0:33:14.720 --> 0:33:18.480 more than say everybody has a different opinion, and that's okay. 0:33:18.840 --> 0:33:20.840 I think that's that's important. It's important to say that, 0:33:21.200 --> 0:33:25.160 but sometimes that's not quite enough. And the times when 0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:28.640 that's not quite enough is when say you're in a club, 0:33:29.360 --> 0:33:31.640 or say you're just a member at a public course 0:33:31.720 --> 0:33:35.240 or something, and the membership is having a discussion or 0:33:35.280 --> 0:33:39.000 a debate about what to do with the course, whether 0:33:39.160 --> 0:33:43.400 to change a certain hole, whether to restore something, whether 0:33:43.520 --> 0:33:48.480 to remove trees. All of these questions confront courses and 0:33:48.600 --> 0:33:53.200 clubs on a daily basis, and members have to debate 0:33:53.320 --> 0:33:56.440 with each other and figure out what to do right 0:33:56.840 --> 0:34:00.480 and so in that situation, saying oh, everybody has their 0:34:00.520 --> 0:34:04.280 own opinion and that's Okay, suddenly that doesn't quite work. 0:34:04.480 --> 0:34:07.640 And so how in that situation do you go about 0:34:08.600 --> 0:34:13.440 being a golf architecture nut, loving classic golf architecture and 0:34:13.640 --> 0:34:17.160 not coming off as a jerk, you know, And I 0:34:17.200 --> 0:34:19.799 think that that just to me, it just comes down 0:34:19.880 --> 0:34:22.080 to persuasion. 0:34:21.800 --> 0:34:24.120 Right, Yeah, it's not exercising. 0:34:24.200 --> 0:34:25.840 You have to be subtle about it, right, You have 0:34:25.960 --> 0:34:29.759 to like exercise some social graces and going about it. 0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:32.320 Yeah, I've had a club with way too many trees 0:34:32.400 --> 0:34:34.920 and at one point in my life and I you know, 0:34:35.239 --> 0:34:37.160 I was young, I was in my twenties, and I 0:34:37.360 --> 0:34:39.640 like went about it way the wrong way. Like I 0:34:39.719 --> 0:34:43.080 got so many people like, what's this guy just hollering 0:34:43.120 --> 0:34:45.800 about trees? You know, you have to have some tax 0:34:45.920 --> 0:34:50.239 and some patience and and and that's I mean, it's hard. 0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:53.839 It's like anything in life. You have to be diplomatic. 0:34:54.040 --> 0:34:57.760 But I think the big thing is like show showing 0:34:58.920 --> 0:35:02.200 why you know, this was the way it was if 0:35:02.239 --> 0:35:06.120 you're restoring something, or I think a really good way 0:35:06.680 --> 0:35:08.760 to do it is to ask people what their favorite 0:35:08.840 --> 0:35:12.279 courses are and a lot of times like that, well, 0:35:12.400 --> 0:35:15.400 and you can glean something from that, right and be 0:35:15.560 --> 0:35:18.880 like hey, Like, you know, you said you like so 0:35:19.040 --> 0:35:21.320 and so course, well, like, oh, you say you like 0:35:21.400 --> 0:35:24.520 your courses abandon do they have a ton of trees 0:35:24.680 --> 0:35:27.880 and like it seems like they afford a lot of 0:35:27.920 --> 0:35:30.440 space off the play off the tee. That might be 0:35:30.560 --> 0:35:32.480 why you like them is that you know, you can 0:35:32.560 --> 0:35:34.680 get your ball out there and then you have a 0:35:34.760 --> 0:35:37.319 lot of different options on how you can hit into 0:35:37.360 --> 0:35:39.920 the green and you can play up the left or 0:35:39.920 --> 0:35:42.120 you could play up the right because there's enough space 0:35:42.239 --> 0:35:46.160 to do so. You know. So that's like a way 0:35:46.280 --> 0:35:49.399 to do it right is to kind of ask them 0:35:50.040 --> 0:35:53.080 questions and then work off that and make them almost 0:35:53.680 --> 0:35:56.560 you know, it's like an old sales trick, like make 0:35:56.640 --> 0:35:57.920 somebody think it's their idea. 0:35:58.200 --> 0:36:00.840 That's exactly what it is, right, and that is the 0:36:00.920 --> 0:36:04.160 most effective way to persuade somebody of something is to 0:36:04.280 --> 0:36:06.440 make them feel like it's in their interest or that 0:36:06.520 --> 0:36:09.960 it was even their idea to do something. And my 0:36:10.520 --> 0:36:14.759 belief is that most golfers kind of have fun with 0:36:15.040 --> 0:36:18.359 similar kinds of golf architecture. I don't believe that most 0:36:18.400 --> 0:36:23.280 golfers have a lot of fun playing super narrow, hard 0:36:23.520 --> 0:36:25.680 tree lined courses with a lot of rough Now, some 0:36:25.800 --> 0:36:27.920 golfers do enjoy that. I don't want to take anything 0:36:27.960 --> 0:36:30.479 away from that, but I would just hazard a guess 0:36:30.640 --> 0:36:35.080 that most golfers like something other than that, And so 0:36:35.600 --> 0:36:39.960 you know, we can eventually get to that conclusion together, 0:36:40.520 --> 0:36:42.399 but we just have to like not yell at each 0:36:42.400 --> 0:36:44.960 other about it first, and have each side kind of 0:36:45.080 --> 0:36:48.320 dig in and start making it about pride. 0:36:48.520 --> 0:36:50.719 I've got a question for you that's going to be 0:36:50.800 --> 0:36:53.200 hard for you not to sound like a pompous ask 0:36:53.360 --> 0:36:57.920 god from par Birdie Bertie. Oh no, which person has 0:36:58.000 --> 0:37:01.239 done the most damaged to golf architecture? A R T 0:37:01.440 --> 0:37:07.400 J JR B Dick NuGen See, Jack Nicholas or d 0:37:07.840 --> 0:37:08.640 Reese Johnson? 0:37:08.960 --> 0:37:13.880 You bastard? Okay, listen, Parr Birdie. Birdie asked actually a 0:37:13.920 --> 0:37:17.680 few questions and all of them were pretty pointed. So 0:37:17.880 --> 0:37:20.400 Parr Birdie, Birdie, hope, hope you're doing okay. It it 0:37:20.520 --> 0:37:23.960 seems like something is bothering you at but perhaps at 0:37:23.960 --> 0:37:29.160 your club. But in any case of those, God, I 0:37:29.239 --> 0:37:34.200 don't know. I mean, Reyes Jones is really is really 0:37:34.400 --> 0:37:40.120 uh reek. Some havoc at at a lot of really 0:37:40.239 --> 0:37:41.200 really good courses. 0:37:41.360 --> 0:37:42.400 Because Jack though. 0:37:42.440 --> 0:37:45.920 Yeah, I mean I think ultimately you'd have to go 0:37:46.080 --> 0:37:49.399 with Jack nickolss there and okay, here, here's here's why 0:37:49.719 --> 0:37:52.239 I'm saying Jack Nicholas. It's not because I think that 0:37:52.400 --> 0:37:56.479 he's a clueless architect or that his best courses are bad. 0:37:57.600 --> 0:38:01.200 I think actually the best Jack Nicklass courses are really good, 0:38:01.880 --> 0:38:04.799 and some of them are really great places to hold 0:38:05.320 --> 0:38:08.839 pro tournaments, Mierfield Village being one of them. I've been 0:38:09.160 --> 0:38:11.680 more or less persuaded of this by Joseph Lamannia, but 0:38:11.760 --> 0:38:16.319 Mierfield Village is a terrific PGA tour venue, and Jack 0:38:16.400 --> 0:38:19.280 Nicholas clearly knows how to build that kind of course 0:38:19.600 --> 0:38:22.360 and make it interesting, make it challenging, and so the 0:38:22.400 --> 0:38:24.719 best Jack Nicholas courses are really good. I'm not saying 0:38:24.800 --> 0:38:27.560 Jack Nicholas is some kind of golf architecture idiot. 0:38:28.120 --> 0:38:28.520 But the. 0:38:30.080 --> 0:38:35.320 Problem starts with the factory model of Jack nicholas designs, 0:38:35.360 --> 0:38:39.320 and how many courses were built with the Jack Nicholas 0:38:39.560 --> 0:38:43.960 name on them that didn't necessarily have much input from 0:38:44.040 --> 0:38:49.560 Jack Nicholas, didn't necessarily represent much passion on his part 0:38:49.719 --> 0:38:53.200 in building them, creating them, and I think that that 0:38:53.480 --> 0:38:58.279 ultimately is the thing that gets golf architects in the 0:38:58.520 --> 0:39:03.359 end is the not paying attention to individual projects. Once 0:39:03.440 --> 0:39:06.279 they get too much work, once they're stretched too thin, 0:39:06.840 --> 0:39:10.520 once they stop caring about the course that they're building 0:39:11.040 --> 0:39:15.120 like it's life or death, then you start getting mediocre work. 0:39:15.760 --> 0:39:21.840 And that is I think the big problem that affects 0:39:21.880 --> 0:39:24.960 golf architecture, especially in boom times like we're having right now. 0:39:25.080 --> 0:39:28.600 So I think a question that all architects in this 0:39:28.840 --> 0:39:33.000 current kind of active moment in golf course development need 0:39:33.080 --> 0:39:35.239 to ask themselves is how much work can I really 0:39:35.360 --> 0:39:39.560 take on and remain passionate about each individual project. So 0:39:39.920 --> 0:39:43.120 I'm choosing Jack Nicholas because there are just way too 0:39:43.200 --> 0:39:46.360 many Jack Nicholas courses for him to have really cared 0:39:46.400 --> 0:39:47.600 about all of them. 0:39:48.520 --> 0:39:50.719 And I asked the question so I didn't have to 0:39:50.800 --> 0:39:51.160 answer it. 0:39:52.920 --> 0:39:57.399 So you've just hung me out to dry, like you've 0:39:57.520 --> 0:40:01.200 just completely abandoned me, just like just like tally on 0:40:01.320 --> 0:40:05.920 by Jack Nicholas. Hating hill. Yeah, thanks Andy, All right, 0:40:07.200 --> 0:40:11.319 question from cheesehead sports nut. Great great name. 0:40:11.800 --> 0:40:14.560 Ah yeah, Wisconsin sports suck. 0:40:18.160 --> 0:40:20.960 And that's your hill, all right, She's head sports nut. 0:40:21.080 --> 0:40:24.960 Che's head the lidos seems like a true golf course architecture, 0:40:25.080 --> 0:40:28.680 modern marvel on a number of levels. Do you see 0:40:28.960 --> 0:40:31.640 that being a total one offer paving the way for 0:40:31.800 --> 0:40:35.400 other lost courses to be rebuilt? Okay, so some context, 0:40:35.560 --> 0:40:38.080 I mean probably just about everybody listening to this knows this. 0:40:38.280 --> 0:40:44.600 But Tom Doak and his team are rebuilding C. B. 0:40:44.760 --> 0:40:50.080 McDonald's lost Liedo Golf Club in the middle of Wisconsin 0:40:50.200 --> 0:40:54.160 near the Sand Valley Golf Resort, and they are using 0:40:54.520 --> 0:40:59.840 kind of some innovative methods to really recreate exactly what 0:41:00.160 --> 0:41:04.239 that course might have been at the ground level. So 0:41:04.640 --> 0:41:07.400 that's the project that Cheese had Sportsnut is referring to 0:41:08.000 --> 0:41:12.080 and asking whether that's just one thing that will happen 0:41:12.160 --> 0:41:14.880 one time, or whether it's going to open up a 0:41:15.040 --> 0:41:18.680 new kind of possibility in golf course architecture. 0:41:19.400 --> 0:41:22.960 What do you think about that, Andy, I'm really excited 0:41:23.000 --> 0:41:31.000 about seeing the lido. I don't know how many lido 0:41:31.480 --> 0:41:34.920 type projects I want to see. I don't like the 0:41:35.080 --> 0:41:38.160 idea of getting in the habit of copying holes straight 0:41:38.480 --> 0:41:42.640 straight up. I don't like, you know, in this case, 0:41:42.800 --> 0:41:47.320 the Lido was considered by some the greatest course of 0:41:47.440 --> 0:41:51.000 its era. And it's gone. And I think it's very 0:41:51.120 --> 0:41:56.160 important to use this type of technology in that vein. 0:41:56.960 --> 0:42:01.479 Am I bringing something back that was truly the best 0:42:01.640 --> 0:42:05.840 course or one of the five best courses and it's gone. 0:42:05.960 --> 0:42:10.239 And I can't think of many courses that are in 0:42:10.400 --> 0:42:15.919 that type of vein as the Leado. So with that said, 0:42:16.200 --> 0:42:19.320 I would hate to see people start to use this 0:42:19.440 --> 0:42:25.399 technology to recreate holes at other golf courses because why 0:42:25.520 --> 0:42:28.920 not hire a talented architect and let them build stuff 0:42:29.400 --> 0:42:33.680 on their own? Why Like, who would want the you 0:42:33.760 --> 0:42:36.920 know in their heyday? Who would want the rolling Stones 0:42:37.080 --> 0:42:42.200 to try and be the Beatles? It's silly, right what hire? 0:42:42.600 --> 0:42:46.680 Push the the practice of golf architecture into the future, 0:42:46.920 --> 0:42:50.600 not live in the past, right, Like use the principles 0:42:50.719 --> 0:42:54.440 of those great courses to build new stuff and you know, 0:42:54.600 --> 0:42:59.399 tweak it. Don't just copy what happened like that. That's 0:42:59.520 --> 0:43:04.520 just repel art and that's not good. So I think 0:43:04.640 --> 0:43:07.279 like there there's some of this with like the Rainer 0:43:07.400 --> 0:43:11.719 McDonald's stuff, and I'm I'm a huge Rainer McDonald fan, 0:43:12.560 --> 0:43:15.640 But there can be twists of those templates and those 0:43:15.680 --> 0:43:18.440 templates were were you know, there are a lot of 0:43:18.719 --> 0:43:22.640 differences in the templates at different courses. Right, it's great 0:43:22.640 --> 0:43:25.600 to have, but like building straight up a template course, 0:43:25.719 --> 0:43:29.759 Like I think it's great to give architects the chance 0:43:29.840 --> 0:43:31.600 to build what they want to build. 0:43:31.840 --> 0:43:33.440 You know, create something new. 0:43:33.840 --> 0:43:38.239 Think about hiring a great artist and like telling them what. 0:43:38.360 --> 0:43:43.360 To paint yeah yeah, or or having them paint according 0:43:43.440 --> 0:43:51.000 to kind of like a machine learning adaptation of Michelangelo 0:43:51.160 --> 0:43:52.360 or something, you know like that. 0:43:52.800 --> 0:43:53.279 That So. 0:43:54.760 --> 0:43:57.920 The Leado is one of one, the original Leado, the 0:43:58.040 --> 0:44:01.600 CB McDonald Lido. There there was no other golf course 0:44:01.800 --> 0:44:07.319 like that golf course, not one, And so I think 0:44:07.680 --> 0:44:11.920 that this project of recreating the Lido should similarly be 0:44:12.520 --> 0:44:17.200 unique because the Lido was unique. So it justifies this 0:44:17.480 --> 0:44:21.560 project and the methods that they used to recreate the course. 0:44:22.239 --> 0:44:27.520 But golf architecture has to move forward, right, Once we 0:44:27.719 --> 0:44:36.680 start using new technology to recreate lost courses, our reverence 0:44:36.840 --> 0:44:40.120 for Golden age golf course architecture has gone way too far. 0:44:41.400 --> 0:44:45.680 We're going to start living in this kind of nostalgia, right, 0:44:45.960 --> 0:44:51.160 instead of pushing forward, finding new things, using old ideas 0:44:51.760 --> 0:44:56.080 and spinning them in some way to create something new. 0:44:56.239 --> 0:44:59.440 That's what art has to do. In order to remain 0:44:59.719 --> 0:45:05.319 a live So honestly, using this technology that they've used 0:45:05.440 --> 0:45:10.080 at the New Leader in Wisconsin to do other golf 0:45:10.880 --> 0:45:14.760 course projects, I think is wou would pose a major 0:45:14.880 --> 0:45:17.000 threat to the art of golf course design. And I 0:45:17.160 --> 0:45:20.680 really really hope that people don't do it, like I 0:45:20.719 --> 0:45:22.920 think it's I think that would be a very very 0:45:23.480 --> 0:45:27.320 bad thing. So if you're thinking about doing it, please don't. 0:45:28.840 --> 0:45:32.239 All right, moving on, Yeah, all right, we probably have 0:45:32.400 --> 0:45:36.239 time for one or two more questions here. Here's an 0:45:36.280 --> 0:45:42.759 interesting one from Andy Lack, fellow podcaster. Really good question. 0:45:43.200 --> 0:45:45.800 If a new architect came to you and said, I 0:45:45.920 --> 0:45:49.120 can go anywhere in the world to study one course 0:45:49.520 --> 0:45:53.200 before I build mine, where would you send him? So 0:45:53.280 --> 0:45:56.120 I think this question part of its premise is that 0:45:57.200 --> 0:45:59.400 you know the land of course, we would advise the 0:45:59.520 --> 0:46:02.640 architect go find this a course built on a similar 0:46:02.680 --> 0:46:04.320 piece of land and kind of study that, like the 0:46:04.400 --> 0:46:07.279 greatest course built on X piece of land. Study that 0:46:07.680 --> 0:46:10.480 that would probably be the real move. But let's just think, 0:46:10.680 --> 0:46:14.200 you know, in general, what would be the greatest place 0:46:14.280 --> 0:46:16.920 to learn how to do golf course architecture. 0:46:18.840 --> 0:46:25.600 Ah, that's a great question. I personally I think a 0:46:25.680 --> 0:46:31.560 lot of golf course construction and golf architecture. Golf courses 0:46:31.800 --> 0:46:38.279 are very socially irresponsible in terms of their waste and 0:46:38.360 --> 0:46:42.800 their opulence. So to me, if I was going to 0:46:42.840 --> 0:46:45.640 send somebody who was thinking about building a golf course 0:46:46.320 --> 0:46:50.000 to a course, I would send them to sand Hills 0:46:50.280 --> 0:46:54.600 because there is you know, you have a masterpiece of 0:46:55.480 --> 0:47:01.680 golf design. And also it shows that everything doesn't need 0:47:01.760 --> 0:47:05.160 to be over the top to be a great place 0:47:05.400 --> 0:47:07.480 and a great place to hang out. Like you know, 0:47:07.640 --> 0:47:12.520 you're building these courses and really you're building a golf course, 0:47:12.600 --> 0:47:15.560 so everything should be centered around the golf course like 0:47:15.719 --> 0:47:18.680 everything else. Like it's nice to have nice stuff at 0:47:18.719 --> 0:47:21.759 golf courses, but they are really unnecessary. And I think, 0:47:21.880 --> 0:47:25.480 like from a facility standpoint, sand Hills is the place 0:47:25.600 --> 0:47:29.600 that to me, it just it always leaves an impact 0:47:29.719 --> 0:47:34.160 on me as to like, hey, you know, everything doesn't 0:47:34.239 --> 0:47:36.719 need to be five star. If you have the best 0:47:36.800 --> 0:47:39.680 golf course in the world, all you know, one of 0:47:39.719 --> 0:47:42.160 the best golf courses in the world. All you want 0:47:42.239 --> 0:47:45.399 to do is get people out to play the golf course, 0:47:45.640 --> 0:47:49.879 Like and the lodging doesn't have to be extraordinary you're 0:47:49.920 --> 0:47:52.640 gonna be exhausted after a day of playing golf. You know, 0:47:52.800 --> 0:47:56.480 they have good food, they have strong drinks, they have 0:47:57.320 --> 0:48:03.360 you know, comfortable beds, and unbelievable golf course that's maintained 0:48:03.440 --> 0:48:08.000 for far, far less than you know, most golf courses 0:48:08.040 --> 0:48:08.640 in his class. 0:48:08.920 --> 0:48:11.360 Yeah, and it's appropriate to go there if you're a 0:48:11.440 --> 0:48:15.000 modern architect. Sand Hills is kind of at the at 0:48:15.040 --> 0:48:18.719 the genesis of you know, what we now know of 0:48:18.840 --> 0:48:22.480 as modern golf course architecture. This, this new era of 0:48:22.520 --> 0:48:25.800 golf course architecture, sand Hills is is kind of the course. 0:48:27.000 --> 0:48:29.440 So yeah, I agree with a lot of that. You know, 0:48:30.000 --> 0:48:32.040 a lot of people would probably say the old course, 0:48:32.880 --> 0:48:36.879 you know, good one too. Yeah, So that that that's 0:48:36.920 --> 0:48:40.040 probably it's that has that has proven over time. The 0:48:40.120 --> 0:48:44.680 old course has its bona fides as a school room 0:48:45.040 --> 0:48:48.239 for golf course architects. That's where so many great golf 0:48:48.320 --> 0:48:52.480 course architects have gone to learn about the craft of 0:48:52.560 --> 0:48:57.719 golf course design, from you know, early twentieth century architects 0:48:58.000 --> 0:49:01.439 through to the present day. You know, many many golf 0:49:01.480 --> 0:49:04.760 course architects have learned their most important lessons from that course. 0:49:05.280 --> 0:49:08.520 But we are you know, we're Americans, with a lot 0:49:08.560 --> 0:49:10.480 of our coverage is kind of American based. 0:49:10.560 --> 0:49:12.880 So well, if you think about those two that we 0:49:13.080 --> 0:49:18.799 picked out, they're roughly too cheap, probably maybe the two 0:49:18.960 --> 0:49:21.520 cheapest courses to build up their era. 0:49:22.120 --> 0:49:25.080 Yeah, yeah, two of the most natural courses. And the 0:49:25.160 --> 0:49:27.680 old course wasn't I'm not even sure you could call 0:49:27.760 --> 0:49:31.839 it built the enemy. Well that's what I said, you know, yeah, 0:49:32.040 --> 0:49:34.040 and so that that's that. Yeah, it goes to show 0:49:34.120 --> 0:49:36.759 you you don't need to do too much the course. 0:49:37.680 --> 0:49:43.400 Honestly, like so many courses, if they just did seventy 0:49:43.480 --> 0:49:48.160 percent less would be better places. Like that's the crazy 0:49:48.280 --> 0:49:52.840 thing to me just from my lens. And this again, 0:49:53.200 --> 0:49:57.000 this is you know, as somebody who this is tons 0:49:57.040 --> 0:50:01.120 of places every year. To me, my general takeaway is, 0:50:01.320 --> 0:50:05.560 well I could have done without that more so than 0:50:05.920 --> 0:50:09.240 I really wish they had this. Like I find myself 0:50:09.520 --> 0:50:14.520 more often being like, well that was a little too much, 0:50:15.040 --> 0:50:18.560 more than I really wish they had this. Like the 0:50:18.719 --> 0:50:21.080 only thing that I ever am like I really wish, 0:50:21.360 --> 0:50:24.640 I really wish there was more water to drink on 0:50:24.760 --> 0:50:28.400 a golf course is really like what I find myself 0:50:28.480 --> 0:50:29.120 saying the most. 0:50:30.480 --> 0:50:33.640 Well, here's something that I find myself doing a lot 0:50:34.640 --> 0:50:38.880 at golf courses that maybe aren't architecturally the best. And 0:50:38.960 --> 0:50:40.880 I do play those courses and enjoy them because it's 0:50:40.920 --> 0:50:44.759 golf and it's all fun. But whatever. Sometimes if I 0:50:44.840 --> 0:50:48.040 hit a ball way offline and I'm kind of hunting 0:50:48.239 --> 0:50:51.280 off the golf course in whatever the natural area around 0:50:51.320 --> 0:50:54.680 the golf course is, sometimes I'll find myself enjoying myself 0:50:54.840 --> 0:50:58.480 more in that environment than I did in the environment 0:50:58.560 --> 0:51:00.880 of the golf course, and I think to myself that 0:51:01.000 --> 0:51:04.239 this course has been overbuilt or the agronomy is trying 0:51:04.280 --> 0:51:07.160 to do too much to separate it from its natural environment. 0:51:07.520 --> 0:51:09.640 And I think that's probably the biggest lesson that you 0:51:09.719 --> 0:51:12.080 can learn from sand Hills in the Old Course, is 0:51:12.160 --> 0:51:15.399 that the natural landscape is the most beautiful thing. It's 0:51:15.440 --> 0:51:20.360 the thing that we humans are sort of genetically coded 0:51:20.480 --> 0:51:24.560 to respond well to, and so try to keep that intact. Now, 0:51:24.640 --> 0:51:26.800 the course, I'll just mention this quickly because it's not 0:51:26.840 --> 0:51:28.800 as good of an answer as sand Hills or the 0:51:28.880 --> 0:51:31.200 Old Course. But the course that I would maybe send 0:51:31.200 --> 0:51:34.200 an architect to would be Old Town Club. I think 0:51:34.280 --> 0:51:36.120 that would be that would be a cool place to 0:51:36.200 --> 0:51:39.800 go to learn about golf course architecture because across the 0:51:39.920 --> 0:51:45.160 board Old Town Club does everything well. It's beautifully routed, 0:51:45.719 --> 0:51:50.840 the greens are so interestingly designed. The restoration of that 0:51:51.040 --> 0:51:54.960 course by Corn Crenshaw is absolutely spot on. And it's 0:51:55.080 --> 0:51:58.560 not on the most extraordinary piece of land in the world. Now, 0:51:58.920 --> 0:52:02.399 it's a really good piece of golfing terrain, like it's 0:52:02.520 --> 0:52:05.600 it's fantastic, no doubt about it. But this is not 0:52:05.840 --> 0:52:10.040 built on you know, the sand dunes of coastal Oregon. 0:52:10.920 --> 0:52:14.160 This is not on linksland. This is a fairly ordinary 0:52:14.640 --> 0:52:22.000 parkland property. Period dramatic. This is a above average parkland property, 0:52:22.200 --> 0:52:24.800 let's call it, or something beautiful. 0:52:24.840 --> 0:52:26.040 Wildhorse would be a great one. 0:52:26.200 --> 0:52:29.399 Wildhorse was was probably my other thought because the ones 0:52:29.600 --> 0:52:32.040 we've mentioned so far, I mean, aside from the Old 0:52:32.080 --> 0:52:35.280 Course are are private clubs, and so you know, Wildhorse 0:52:35.400 --> 0:52:37.840 very accessible and beautifully designed. 0:52:38.200 --> 0:52:41.160 I got one here from Ben Herms. This may be 0:52:41.320 --> 0:52:44.280 is our last one. Is it wrong to judge classic 0:52:44.360 --> 0:52:48.160 courses against modern ones? Or I'm just gonna tweak this 0:52:48.320 --> 0:52:53.600 a little bit or minimalist slash found courses against manufactured ones, 0:52:54.040 --> 0:52:57.960 like should they be judged different, judged differently because they're 0:52:58.040 --> 0:53:00.480 classic and modern or minimalist versus. 0:53:00.760 --> 0:53:03.640 So those are two different subjects, but they're both interesting. 0:53:03.880 --> 0:53:06.600 Like should they be should we judge different types of 0:53:06.680 --> 0:53:11.840 courses against each other, you know, across generations or you 0:53:11.920 --> 0:53:12.880 know styles. 0:53:13.160 --> 0:53:15.759 I think the short answer is is yes, you can 0:53:15.840 --> 0:53:20.880 compare anything while also offering the caveats that this is 0:53:20.960 --> 0:53:24.040 what the course is trying to do. Okay, so we 0:53:24.320 --> 0:53:28.480 just talked about the wonders of natural golf courses, but 0:53:28.719 --> 0:53:29.879 what about Shadow Creek? 0:53:30.520 --> 0:53:30.680 Right? 0:53:31.600 --> 0:53:34.440 Is that course was that was the purpose of that 0:53:34.560 --> 0:53:39.680 course ever going to be to be a tribute a 0:53:39.800 --> 0:53:42.400 love note to the natural landscape or ledo which was 0:53:42.440 --> 0:53:45.360 built on a marsh right and was and was really created. 0:53:46.120 --> 0:53:48.800 So I think that yeah, I mean it's it's not 0:53:49.040 --> 0:53:52.880 wrong to compare Shadow Creek to the old course at 0:53:52.920 --> 0:53:55.640 Saint Andrew's, like you you can do it like there, 0:53:55.719 --> 0:53:58.880 they have their golf courses, they have nothing common so 0:53:59.080 --> 0:54:01.800 that you can compare them and talk about why you 0:54:02.040 --> 0:54:04.920 like one more than the other. But yeah, sure, you 0:54:05.040 --> 0:54:07.160 have to keep in mind what the course was trying 0:54:07.239 --> 0:54:10.560 to accomplish with what it was given. You can also 0:54:10.640 --> 0:54:13.440 ask the question of whether you know courses should be 0:54:13.520 --> 0:54:17.960 built on desert wasteland at all, whether whether that's a 0:54:18.080 --> 0:54:20.239 good thing to do in the first place. Now, I'm 0:54:20.280 --> 0:54:22.040 not going to be able to stop anybody from building 0:54:22.080 --> 0:54:25.439 desert courses by just saying I disapprove, But I don't 0:54:25.520 --> 0:54:28.600 necessarily think that that was golf as it's meant to 0:54:28.680 --> 0:54:31.200 be or golf as I prefer it. And I think 0:54:31.239 --> 0:54:34.480 that that's okay to say that. I just like the 0:54:34.600 --> 0:54:38.279 course that's built on a setting that's naturally suited to 0:54:38.360 --> 0:54:41.040 golf more than the course that was built on a 0:54:41.080 --> 0:54:44.640 setting that really rejects golf at every turn. I've kind 0:54:44.680 --> 0:54:46.759 of wandered off the subject. I don't know. I think 0:54:46.800 --> 0:54:49.319 you can compare the courses. You just have to keep 0:54:49.360 --> 0:54:50.560 in mind what they're trying to do. 0:54:50.800 --> 0:54:53.040 Yeah, I have thoughts on this too, from the sense of, 0:54:54.239 --> 0:55:00.719 you know, the rankings right e anyway ranks courses. It's like, well, 0:55:02.120 --> 0:55:04.879 you know, the reality is like a course could be better, 0:55:05.040 --> 0:55:08.080 but I might want to play a different course more. 0:55:09.040 --> 0:55:12.560 You know. Championship courses are great examples of this, Like 0:55:12.800 --> 0:55:15.000 I you know, you go to so many clubs that 0:55:15.120 --> 0:55:17.600 have multiple courses in a championship course and a non 0:55:17.719 --> 0:55:20.920 championship course, and the non championship course is more popular 0:55:21.000 --> 0:55:23.319 with his members than the championship course, Like they play 0:55:23.360 --> 0:55:26.160 the championship course when they bring guests out, Like, so, 0:55:26.239 --> 0:55:28.560 what's the better course? What's the better course? Like is 0:55:28.640 --> 0:55:31.080 the better course of the course that the members want 0:55:31.120 --> 0:55:35.120 to play more that? You know, what restaurants better the 0:55:35.160 --> 0:55:36.839 one that I want to eat at more? Like there's 0:55:36.960 --> 0:55:40.399 different types of restaurants right now, Like there's those once 0:55:40.480 --> 0:55:43.480 in a like once every once in a while restaurants 0:55:43.520 --> 0:55:47.480 that blow your socks off, like with great food and everything, 0:55:47.600 --> 0:55:50.719 but you're like, I wouldn't want to do this regularly, right, 0:55:51.400 --> 0:55:53.640 And it's the same thing with golf courses. There are 0:55:53.800 --> 0:55:58.560 courses that like really like you know, blow your mind 0:55:58.680 --> 0:56:02.160 and you're like, god, this is incredible, but they're like 0:56:02.480 --> 0:56:04.759 taxing and you're kind of like, I don't think I 0:56:04.800 --> 0:56:08.400 would want to do this every day. And then you 0:56:08.480 --> 0:56:10.239 have like the courses that you're like, got it. I 0:56:10.400 --> 0:56:12.439 just wish I could play this every day. I would 0:56:12.520 --> 0:56:16.279 die a happy person. But like, so which one's better? Right? 0:56:16.640 --> 0:56:19.640 And this is the problem with rankings and saying this 0:56:19.880 --> 0:56:23.400 course is better than this course. You know, in a vacuum. Right, 0:56:23.800 --> 0:56:28.160 there are different qualities to courses. It's almost like superlatives. Right. 0:56:28.600 --> 0:56:32.080 There are great everyday courses. This is this is a club, 0:56:32.200 --> 0:56:33.960 This is a place I'd want to be a member at. 0:56:34.080 --> 0:56:37.080 This is a public course that want to play every day. Now, 0:56:37.280 --> 0:56:41.239 this course is the most dramatic, most spectacular course, right, 0:56:41.840 --> 0:56:44.120 And if I was going to play one place before 0:56:44.120 --> 0:56:46.560 I died, I want to play that place, right. And 0:56:46.680 --> 0:56:50.480 the that's the thing is like that place against the 0:56:50.560 --> 0:56:52.799 place that is the best, is the place I want 0:56:52.840 --> 0:56:55.360 to play every day. I might play the place I 0:56:55.440 --> 0:56:58.319 want to play every day seven times to three over 0:56:58.400 --> 0:57:01.399 the spectacular one. But if I had one round, I'd 0:57:01.400 --> 0:57:04.560 play the other, of course, so which one's better? Like? 0:57:05.320 --> 0:57:08.400 This is the silly thing with the rankings. The rankings 0:57:08.440 --> 0:57:13.400 are so that they cause such damage because the reality 0:57:13.480 --> 0:57:16.920 of the rankings is that they are centered around dramatic 0:57:17.080 --> 0:57:21.360 land and difficulty. For the most part, I think golf 0:57:21.440 --> 0:57:23.880 dot Com has done a good job of kind of 0:57:24.120 --> 0:57:27.920 getting away from that, but especially golf digest is like, 0:57:28.040 --> 0:57:31.680 if you don't have dramatic land or a really hard course, 0:57:33.120 --> 0:57:35.760 good luck, good luck, And what's that do for the 0:57:35.840 --> 0:57:38.680 course Without dramatic land. Then they try and make their 0:57:38.720 --> 0:57:42.960 course really hard in order to, you know, compel raiders 0:57:43.080 --> 0:57:45.560 to think that it is a good course. This is 0:57:45.800 --> 0:57:49.920 the disease of the rankings and the harm that so 0:57:50.000 --> 0:57:53.320 many rankings have done to golf architecture. Instead of golf 0:57:53.440 --> 0:57:56.800 courses thinking about how do we be the best course 0:57:56.960 --> 0:57:59.919 we can be and what our identity is, they try 0:58:00.080 --> 0:58:02.919 and build their identity off what they're rated on, which 0:58:03.000 --> 0:58:04.840 is just asinine. 0:58:06.600 --> 0:58:09.280 You took that question a different direction than I was 0:58:09.360 --> 0:58:11.600 thinking of it. I was thinking of it as like, 0:58:11.920 --> 0:58:15.200 how would I determine my favorite course? How would I 0:58:15.960 --> 0:58:19.480 compare one course to another, or you know, do that? 0:58:20.160 --> 0:58:23.240 But you're thinking of it in terms of how do 0:58:23.320 --> 0:58:27.520 you determine which course's best? And that process of trying 0:58:27.560 --> 0:58:30.560 to figure out which course is the best and getting 0:58:30.560 --> 0:58:34.000 a bunch of different people together and asking them to 0:58:34.120 --> 0:58:37.560 collectively come up with an idea of which course's best 0:58:38.120 --> 0:58:41.280 is always going to be a pretty silly process. I 0:58:41.440 --> 0:58:44.760 totally agree with that, and it happens to be a 0:58:44.840 --> 0:58:48.400 process that has become institutionalized in the golf course industry 0:58:49.080 --> 0:58:53.919 and has had a pretty bad effect on what golf 0:58:54.000 --> 0:58:58.880 courses do. So I'm with you on that. But I 0:58:58.920 --> 0:59:03.280 think it's different to just talk about favorite courses because 0:59:03.320 --> 0:59:07.400 you can come up with your own idiosyncratic criteria and 0:59:07.680 --> 0:59:13.320 just make decisions based on that. You know. On this trip, 0:59:14.120 --> 0:59:17.280 we've played some some really great courses, but the one 0:59:17.320 --> 0:59:19.960 that I keep thinking about, the one that I really love, 0:59:21.080 --> 0:59:25.120 is Cape Arundle. I also think that Essex County Club 0:59:25.200 --> 0:59:27.120 is one of the best courses I've ever played, but 0:59:29.040 --> 0:59:32.080 maybe my favorite on the trip was Cape Rundle. 0:59:31.880 --> 0:59:35.840 Probably arguably the least. It's definitely probably the least spectacular 0:59:36.000 --> 0:59:41.360 land of the trip. The settings idyllic right Land is quiet, yeah, 0:59:41.440 --> 0:59:43.600 And and I think that's the thing is like, that's 0:59:43.640 --> 0:59:46.440 a great everyday course. That's the course you would love 0:59:46.560 --> 0:59:48.760 to play every day because of a lot of things, 0:59:49.000 --> 0:59:52.680 and one of them being like it's super easy to 0:59:52.720 --> 0:59:54.800 go around it, like it's not going to kill you. 0:59:55.160 --> 0:59:57.960 It's a course that's suited to me because I'm a 0:59:58.040 --> 1:00:02.760 golfer of pretty average abilities and pretty average length off 1:00:02.840 --> 1:00:05.920 the tee, and it's fifty eight hundred yards and it 1:00:06.080 --> 1:00:08.560 really feels like a pleasure to play that course as 1:00:08.600 --> 1:00:11.600 opposed to hitting five wood into every grain, and that 1:00:11.840 --> 1:00:15.479 is something that can't enter that kind of thinking, can't 1:00:15.640 --> 1:00:19.000 enter into the discussion when you talk about best courses, 1:00:19.680 --> 1:00:23.000 and especially when you talk about best courses as rated 1:00:23.600 --> 1:00:26.760 by a group of people, you can't start talking about 1:00:26.880 --> 1:00:30.280 what your particular game is or what your particular preferences are. 1:00:30.960 --> 1:00:34.120 And so I think when you move from favorite to best, 1:00:34.720 --> 1:00:38.120 a lot of things happen, and a lot of them 1:00:38.280 --> 1:00:39.000 aren't very good. 1:00:40.240 --> 1:00:43.200 All right, I think that's a good stapping point. We're 1:00:43.280 --> 1:00:45.920 right around an hour here, yeah, so let's wrap up there. 1:00:56.880 --> 1:00:59.640 Thank you guys for listening to another edition of the 1:00:59.680 --> 1:01:05.040 Friday Podcast. Today's episode was edited by the wonderful meg Adkins. 1:01:05.520 --> 1:01:08.320 She does a great job with many many things, including 1:01:08.400 --> 1:01:11.840 this podcast. As a quick reminder, sign up for the 1:01:11.880 --> 1:01:17.000 Fridagg newsletter. It is a wonderful way to stay up 1:01:17.040 --> 1:01:20.240 to date with golf. I think with the off season here, 1:01:20.960 --> 1:01:23.840 anybody listening to this now, after this podcast, we're going 1:01:23.960 --> 1:01:26.800 to write a little bit more about golf course architecture 1:01:26.840 --> 1:01:31.320 golf courses in that newsletter. So sign up. Go to 1:01:31.400 --> 1:01:34.240 the Fridagg dot com. There's a subscribe button right there. 1:01:34.520 --> 1:01:37.400 Look on that or enter your email. There's a bar 1:01:37.560 --> 1:01:40.880 there's a button, there's all sources of places there to 1:01:41.080 --> 1:01:43.760 sign up, enter your email and you're in and you'll 1:01:43.800 --> 1:01:47.880 get that every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday for free. So 1:01:48.400 --> 1:01:51.320 do that, and thank you for sticking with us through 1:01:51.440 --> 1:01:55.000 another edition of the FRIDAYGG podcast. We will be back 1:01:55.080 --> 1:02:00.920 next week. No