Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my ball in a brid Egg,
Speaker 1: Frida Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday Fridagg Bride Egg Lie,
Speaker 1: I'm about ready to run off of the hump.
Speaker 2: All right, Welcome back to another edition of the Fridaygg podcast.
Speaker 2: Today's episode is brought to you by ourselves. Yes, that's right, ourselves.
Speaker 2: It's brought to you by our Frida Egg pro Shop.
Speaker 2: If you guys enjoy the podcast and are looking for
Speaker 2: any type of new golf gear, loungewear, new print for
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Speaker 2: go check it out there. That's Proshop dot Thefridagg dot com.
Speaker 2: And thank you for listening. Today's episode will be a
Speaker 2: mail bag podcast. I've got Garrett Morrison right here.
Speaker 1: What's up? How's it going? Ad read right off the top. Yeah,
Speaker 1: move and.
Speaker 2: Merch, Move and merch, move and merch. Talking golf architecture
Speaker 2: on a long road trip, so this should be a
Speaker 2: fun one. I'm excited to talk about something other than
Speaker 2: professional golf. It's kind of been occupying the vacuum in
Speaker 2: the golf world and it'll be nice change of pace
Speaker 2: here to talk golf architecture. How's the trip end for you?
Speaker 2: If you enjoyed your jaunt through the Northeast here.
Speaker 1: This has been an incredible trip for people who don't know.
Speaker 1: We started in Boston at an event that we held
Speaker 1: called the Backyard at Essex County Club, which was sensational.
Speaker 1: That course immediately goes into the top bucket for me,
Speaker 1: I mean, just an incredible golf course. We've gotten to
Speaker 1: play some other cool courses in the area as well.
Speaker 1: As we were driving up to Rochester, which is where
Speaker 1: we are right now, which by the way, is not
Speaker 1: particularly near Boston, but in the midst of our drive
Speaker 1: up we stopped at an incredible place called the Country
Speaker 1: Club of Troy, which I admit I had never heard
Speaker 1: of before, but it's a Walter Travis course outside of Albany,
Speaker 1: and it's just really wonderful and I think that course
Speaker 1: is going to stick with me for a long time.
Speaker 1: So this trip has been really invigorating in some ways
Speaker 1: in terms of the golf course part of it, and
Speaker 1: really tiring in other ways because we've had long days.
Speaker 1: We've been recordings, we've been going courses. But everything we're
Speaker 1: doing we're super lucky to do. But we are starting
Speaker 1: to run on fumes here. So thank you to everybody
Speaker 1: for sending in questions because that really helps us kind
Speaker 1: of generate a podcast out of nothing. That's what these
Speaker 1: mail bag pods are all about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, most of the teams on the road, so
Speaker 2: putting together a podcast and getting it out there, and
Speaker 2: it's lots of good questions. So do you have this
Speaker 2: is actually a great question. Off the top. We've seen
Speaker 2: a lot of blind te shots and one of the
Speaker 2: reasons we had a golf course set up, you know,
Speaker 2: situation at our last event was blamed. But you guys
Speaker 2: on not having a bell or something, but blind te shots,
Speaker 2: what's the best method for safety? Bells? Periscopes, nothing at all?
Speaker 2: I think there's a wide array of this. I mean,
Speaker 2: one of my favorite things is when there's like a
Speaker 2: homemade periscope. I love the Paris well dun uh at
Speaker 2: not dunbar ed ee. There's a there's like a regal
Speaker 2: marine periscope for the first tea shot.
Speaker 1: That's so cool.
Speaker 2: I think periscope is by far the best amat.
Speaker 1: Because then you can actually see people. Then you're your response. You,
Speaker 1: the person who is hitting the t shot becomes responsible
Speaker 1: for knowing whether you're hitting into somebody.
Speaker 2: And because the problem with the bell is that somebody
Speaker 2: might not ring.
Speaker 1: It, that's exactly right. You can't really know and you
Speaker 1: have to listen for it. You don't, you don't have
Speaker 1: any control.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So periscope by far the best method of safety,
Speaker 2: and I think it's cool. I think it looks cool.
Speaker 2: Somebody's gonna say that's so silly. One of my favorite
Speaker 2: periscopes is that Spring Valley, like a twenty dollars course
Speaker 2: north of Chicago, kind of on the Chicago Illinois border
Speaker 2: or Chicago Illinois Wisconsin border Wisconsin Chicago.
Speaker 1: Some people in southern Illinois might agree that there's a border.
Speaker 2: There, but it's in Wisconsin. But but there's a like
Speaker 2: a PVC pipe periscope. I don't know exactly how they
Speaker 2: how you would make a periscope, how you fashion it,
Speaker 2: but I think that's the right answer.
Speaker 1: You know, where there's a periscope is the mines. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: there's a periscope at the mines and it was a
Speaker 1: fun thing. The mines is where we held a joint
Speaker 1: event with no laying up this year called the thirst Buckets,
Speaker 1: a great public course outside of Grand rap INDs, and
Speaker 1: they have a periscope on one blind t shot. I
Speaker 1: think it's whole. I'm not exactly sure what hol it is,
Speaker 1: but it's it's really cool. It's like a fun thing
Speaker 1: that you can do during the round the bell though,
Speaker 1: if you got rid of all the bells, what would
Speaker 1: the content makers do?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean what would.
Speaker 2: People can't rank the bell? How do you fill those shots?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I don't know, I don't know. All right? One
Speaker 1: another question, yeah, all right? This one is from Keith Roeble.
Speaker 1: He asks, are we finally seeing a next generation of
Speaker 1: architects getting new build work that seems relevant compared to
Speaker 1: the Big Four? And by the Big four, I assume
Speaker 1: he means Corn Crenshaw, Tom Doak and Renaissance Golf Design,
Speaker 1: David McLay kid and Gil Hants. That's the big four.
Speaker 2: I think so, And I obviously I think it's important
Speaker 2: to be to know, like Fazio still gets lost your job.
Speaker 1: That's exactly what I was going to say, if you
Speaker 1: look at what's actually going on as opposed to what
Speaker 1: gets covered in you know, alternative golf media or even
Speaker 1: in mainstream golf media. Fasio Nicholas, all these architects who
Speaker 1: have been around for a while still getting a lot
Speaker 1: of work. Your local, your regional ASGCA architect is getting
Speaker 1: a lot of work right now, and so it's not
Speaker 1: just those four architects getting getting the work. But I
Speaker 1: think what Keith is asking is among the crew of
Speaker 1: kind of exciting young architects who seems to be prime
Speaker 1: to break out, who would you be excited to see breakout?
Speaker 1: I guess that that kind of discussion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's been This is such a hard question.
Speaker 2: So many people ask me about like who's the next guy,
Speaker 2: Who's the or girl, who's the up and coming architect?
Speaker 2: And one of the tricky things is, like we've seen
Speaker 2: the young architects do restoration work for the buffs part
Speaker 2: renovation work, restoration work of existing courses. And you know,
Speaker 2: Rob Collins has built now two courses and nine or
Speaker 2: three courses, two nine whole courses and an eighteen whole course.
Speaker 2: I haven't gone seen the finished product. Landman, I've seen
Speaker 2: Sweetens Gove, I haven't seen in this. You know, he's
Speaker 2: one that has multiple courses. Like you're starting to see,
Speaker 2: you actually have a body of work to go look at. Right.
Speaker 2: A lot of these guys haven't built even their first
Speaker 2: solo design. And I think restoring and renovating courses is
Speaker 2: a lot different than building a golf course from scratch.
Speaker 2: There are substantially more decisions and substantially more work. Is
Speaker 2: it sexy work? Is it you know, sitting in a chair,
Speaker 2: you know, talking through the strategy of a whole. No,
Speaker 2: it's like permitting, it's it's construction. It's all the little
Speaker 2: things that make your client happy and have a project
Speaker 2: run on time, run smoothie. Like one of the things
Speaker 2: that Bill and Ben, Tom and Gil and David all
Speaker 2: do extraordinarily well because they've had so many chances is
Speaker 2: the little things and run, you know, building a golf course,
Speaker 2: so I think, you know, obviously on the short list,
Speaker 2: you have like Kyle Franz, I know, has a few
Speaker 2: solo designs in the works that that's exciting. You have
Speaker 2: you know, Keith reb and Riley Johns, those are exciting guys.
Speaker 2: Rob and Tad. I think Rob and Tad they're doing
Speaker 2: brash stuff, right, They are doing stuff that is different
Speaker 2: than what Gil, Tom and Bill and Ben are doing.
Speaker 2: They are They're pushing the limit in their own way,
Speaker 2: which I really appreciate. They're doing it their way, you know.
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's moving earth and creating. It's not
Speaker 2: building on the land.
Speaker 1: They're not really in the corn Crenshaw tradition. Maybe they
Speaker 1: would disagree with me about that. I'm sure they've taken
Speaker 1: some inspiration from the corn Crenshaws and the Tom Doaks.
Speaker 1: But you know what's really exciting about King Collins is
Speaker 1: that they're coming from a different lineage, you know, working
Speaker 1: for Fasio and being inspired by Mike Strants things like that.
Speaker 1: It's a style of architecture that people who really are
Speaker 1: into architecture, architecture nuts haven't been obsessed with I think
Speaker 1: for a while. So some other young architects who might
Speaker 1: be exciting to see break out young. I'm you saying
Speaker 1: in relative terms for golf architects young, I mean just
Speaker 1: like maybe younger than fifty or sixty. But Brian Schneider, Yes, Blake,
Speaker 1: Brian Schneider, Yeah, and Brian Schneider Blake Hunt currently building
Speaker 1: a course called Old Barnwell near Aiken that looks like
Speaker 1: it could be pretty exciting.
Speaker 2: And like, so this is a perfect example, right, we
Speaker 2: saw them. You know they've done Brian's done so much
Speaker 2: restoration work. He's done so much new build with Tom.
Speaker 2: And you know he did Brian and Blake, Brian as
Speaker 2: the lead designer re renovated Lanark, really cool renovation and
Speaker 2: now they're doing a new build, like you're going to
Speaker 2: begin to see Brian Schneider original work. You know, he's
Speaker 2: done so much. You know a lot of the work
Speaker 2: he does for Tom is is you know a lot
Speaker 2: of it is his work, but it's you know, under
Speaker 2: the vein of Tom's routing. He's doing this all on
Speaker 2: his own. You know, That's the exciting thing, right is
Speaker 2: seeing these guys kind of get a chance and and
Speaker 2: that's the big thing. There's enough work going around where
Speaker 2: finally where the big names don't take all of the
Speaker 2: really exciting new projects right there they have they can't
Speaker 2: take on more work, if that makes sense. And like
Speaker 2: I didn't list off a ton, but like it goes
Speaker 2: down to people doing, you know, getting bigger restoration and
Speaker 2: renovation jobs too, right, it's just building that momentum towards
Speaker 2: I think we're getting getting to where we'll see younger
Speaker 2: guys getting jobs over some of the some of the
Speaker 2: you know, not old guard. They aren't old you.
Speaker 1: Know, some of the we've been familiar with, yeah, getting
Speaker 1: those jobs at the big resorts and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: And sometimes it just takes one.
Speaker 2: Course Mike Cocking. Mike Cocking and Ashley Me and Jeff
Speaker 2: Ogilvie would be ones to watch.
Speaker 1: And there they've got something in Minnesota, I believe in
Speaker 1: Georgia that's yeah, right, coming up in the next couple
Speaker 1: of years. Should we mention that or not? Okay? In
Speaker 1: any case, we're going on to another question. Do you
Speaker 1: have one queued up there?
Speaker 2: I don't have one right now here.
Speaker 1: One I'll throw you on. How can a lame This
Speaker 1: is from Ryan Selhay Ryan Silave, one of those how
Speaker 1: can a layman tell that a course architecture faux pa
Speaker 1: has taken place? Example, given shrunk and green, how can
Speaker 1: I tell that this is happening? So why don't we
Speaker 1: like start with his example? How can you tell that
Speaker 1: that a shrunken green on an older course is actually shrunken?
Speaker 1: Because this is something that people often, even people who
Speaker 1: are really familiar with their course, might not really notice,
Speaker 1: and understandably so because they're used to the green being
Speaker 1: whatever the current green shape is. So how can you
Speaker 1: tell that something is smaller than it should be or
Speaker 1: than it used to be?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think the big thing with that is looking
Speaker 2: at the landform, right, yes, and what was constructed. So
Speaker 2: if you have bunkers around a green, you'll usually have
Speaker 2: shaping with a bunker and then that will tie into
Speaker 2: the green. And if you see, you know, the face
Speaker 2: and then there's a lot of rough a lot of
Speaker 2: times that's a telltale sign. Now, some architects built bunkers
Speaker 2: off of greens. This isn't always just right, but the
Speaker 2: big thing, especially especially if you go around your course
Speaker 2: and you see like a consistent you know, especially say
Speaker 2: a Donald Ross course, right, you'll see a lot of
Speaker 2: times backs of greens built up. Now those backs of
Speaker 2: greens are built up and the green would push to
Speaker 2: the edges of the build is the way they were
Speaker 2: when they opened. Right, So if you see that the
Speaker 2: backs of the green and then along the sides are
Speaker 2: kind of built up and there's rough you know, I
Speaker 2: don't know many architects just in general generally speaking, that
Speaker 2: built like circular greens. And that's like a telltale sign,
Speaker 2: like that's the number one telltale salige. Like not a
Speaker 2: lot of architects built just circle greens. Right. If you
Speaker 2: think of the way a water sprinkler you know, works
Speaker 2: in your yard, you start to realize why something might
Speaker 2: become a circle, right, it goes around in a circle.
Speaker 2: And also from a mowing standpoint, mowing a circle is
Speaker 2: easier than mowing a square.
Speaker 1: It's just over time, the evolution of the green shape
Speaker 1: is going to come in a little bit and you
Speaker 1: woult you know, the greenkeepers won't notice it.
Speaker 2: Like it's so easy, Like think about you're mowing your lawn,
Speaker 2: but these people are mowing their these greens and they're
Speaker 2: trying to be super precise a lot of times when
Speaker 2: it's dark, and how easy it is to miss a
Speaker 2: corner by a couple inches or you know, in some
Speaker 2: cases you need to save money. How do you do that.
Speaker 2: Let's cut down on how often we mow, Like you know,
Speaker 2: there are all these little things. But over time, especially
Speaker 2: especially in the southeast where you've got the bermuda grass,
Speaker 2: like you've got this, you know, it's so easy to
Speaker 2: miss a corner. Have that grow up, and then then
Speaker 2: the next time you go around, you just don't think
Speaker 2: that's part of the green. The other thing you can
Speaker 2: look at is is sprinkler heads. That's a good sign,
Speaker 2: but a lot of times sprinkler So sprinkler heads have
Speaker 2: a lifespan of like thirty years and spring. Look at them,
Speaker 2: See if they're new, See if they're old. If they're older,
Speaker 2: that'll give you an idea. Like so if they're older
Speaker 2: and they're thirty years old, right, you'll see where kind
Speaker 2: of the greens were thirty years ago. Now those are
Speaker 2: probably still smaller than they should be. Right. It's a
Speaker 2: it's a tricky thing, like you know, and if you
Speaker 2: want to get more into it, but if you're just
Speaker 2: looking at it, I think like looking at like how
Speaker 2: the greens built, how it's shaped right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, especially on older courses. Look for where the green
Speaker 1: pad is. There's usually some kind of green pad, some
Speaker 1: kind of build and if the green's not out to
Speaker 1: the edge of that, then it's probably a little bit
Speaker 1: too small.
Speaker 2: And then with like fairways and stuff, I would I
Speaker 2: would start to look at like bunkers.
Speaker 1: Yes, where the bunkers are they lost in the rough.
Speaker 1: Fairways should usually be right out to the bunker.
Speaker 2: Yeah, either the inside like either the at least the
Speaker 2: inside edge of them. I don't know many architects that
Speaker 2: are just like putting bunkers out in season of rough,
Speaker 2: like maybe some might go inside edge, maybe some might
Speaker 2: go middle, like, you know, there's all different. It's it's
Speaker 2: always really tricky to tie in a bunker at a
Speaker 2: fair away. Do you go all the way out to
Speaker 2: the wide like I prefer wide in and out lines,
Speaker 2: but others prefer other things.
Speaker 1: So yeah, all right, So those are some nuts and
Speaker 1: bolts for people. Maybe maybe your home course, maybe you're
Speaker 1: looking for this kind of stuff that'll uh maybe that
Speaker 1: maybe that'll help. But it's it's kind of a complicated thing.
Speaker 1: The key is just going to see like a well
Speaker 1: restored course and then comparing it to other courses. All right,
Speaker 1: question from Shane Bacon. Yeah, what is the perfect restribution restribution?
Speaker 1: What is the perfect restroom distribution on a golf course?
Speaker 1: What holes? Multiple? I mean, first of all, two dudes
Speaker 1: should not be answering this question.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I I think I think every every six
Speaker 2: holes seems like probably the them out right.
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, I mean I was thinking about it.
Speaker 1: Three restrooms, but also like just put them. They need
Speaker 1: to be located at gathering points where there's like multiple
Speaker 1: different teas and greens. If the golf course has that,
Speaker 1: that's probably where the restroom should be, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, all right, that's that's enough fun, that's enough.
Speaker 1: Thank you for your question, Shane. Let's get another one.
Speaker 2: Here's a big ee. What's your favorite green template on
Speaker 2: a par three or short course? Are these green templates
Speaker 2: more fun when you're hitting wedges opposed to long irons
Speaker 2: in oh.
Speaker 1: Man, I guess that's a that's a good question. I
Speaker 1: mean there, but there are some templates like the Beertz
Speaker 1: that are more fun when you're when you aren't hitting
Speaker 1: a short club, right. The Beireritz is funny.
Speaker 2: I think the Beers is a better green now for
Speaker 2: par fives than it is for par three because like
Speaker 2: you have to have the part three B like two
Speaker 2: seventy to have a long hitter running it in.
Speaker 1: Like a reachable par five situation. Yeah, hitting a three
Speaker 1: wood in because.
Speaker 2: Then it actually the one hit meadow Brook, which we
Speaker 2: have had an event at the last two years is
Speaker 2: Andy Staples redesign. It's a reachable par five and it
Speaker 2: plays uphill.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's cool yea.
Speaker 2: So it's likely even long long hitters are hitting uphill,
Speaker 2: so your SHOT's naturally coming in flatter and running.
Speaker 1: Yeah. We should probably tell people what a beer it's is.
Speaker 1: It's it's that green. It's a long green with a
Speaker 1: big trough running perpendicular to the line of play, kind
Speaker 1: of through the middle, and the idea of the hole
Speaker 1: is that you're hitting a long club, you kind of
Speaker 1: run your ball through the through the trough to the
Speaker 1: other side. So other other temples, I don't know, what
Speaker 1: do you think, Like I'd love to see on a
Speaker 1: short course like a double plat toe type green or
Speaker 1: a maiden type green. These are both greens that have
Speaker 1: like shelves, multiple shelves on different in different corners. Of
Speaker 1: the green and then kind of this you know, gully
Speaker 1: running through them in various different arrangements. I think that's
Speaker 1: a cool template quote unquote for a short par three
Speaker 1: because you can find a bunch of different pins, and
Speaker 1: the difference between a really good shot and just a
Speaker 1: good shot is pretty stark. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think just in general, greens that have a lot
Speaker 2: of different options and options get thrown too much around.
Speaker 2: But like the way to think about it is really
Speaker 2: tough positions and really gettable positions and something in between.
Speaker 2: I think something for a par three, a short part three,
Speaker 2: particularly if you have a middle pin. If you can
Speaker 2: put the pin right in the middle and you think, wow,
Speaker 2: that's great pin, it's usually a really great green, like
Speaker 2: at the bare minimum, and that goes for any green.
Speaker 2: Like when you just throw the pin right in the
Speaker 2: smack dab in the middle of the green and you're like,
Speaker 2: oh wow, this is a pretty cool pin, that's usually
Speaker 2: a great, great green because that means there's a lot
Speaker 2: going on, right, It's not just a pancake.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right. Continuing on the theme of greens, Preston
Speaker 1: Walford asks a lot of us know a great set
Speaker 1: of greens when we play them, but struggle to explain
Speaker 1: to the uninitiated what makes some greens better than others?
Speaker 1: Most people I play with great greens strictly on conditioning.
Speaker 1: What would be some things to look out for when
Speaker 1: assessing a course's greens. So we actually just recorded a video,
Speaker 1: a little preview of some future content, recorded a video
Speaker 1: about caper Rundle where we kind of address this question
Speaker 1: of what makes a great green, what makes a great
Speaker 1: set of greens? But just to break it down in
Speaker 1: really simple terms, what are what do you think are
Speaker 1: some criteria? What are some like simple things that people
Speaker 1: can look for when they see their courses greens?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think variety is right at the top. So
Speaker 2: different shapes, different orientation, And what I mean by orientation
Speaker 2: is how does the green sit? Like what angle does
Speaker 2: the green sit that it asks you to be at?
Speaker 2: Going back? So you know, do certain shots open and
Speaker 2: with greens? You know, I'm talking about the bunkers and
Speaker 2: the surrounds. Right, if every green is like bunker right,
Speaker 2: bunker left, and it's straight on, you know, that's not
Speaker 2: very interesting, right You're you're you're kind of it's kind
Speaker 2: of asking you to do the same thing. But if
Speaker 2: you can open, you know, one way with a hard
Speaker 2: angle so that it's like, oh wow, it's really advantageous
Speaker 2: if I'm over here on the right, Like a great
Speaker 2: way to you know, look at greens is to go backwards.
Speaker 2: If you look at them from behind them and kind
Speaker 2: of look back, it's like, okay, if the pin's over here,
Speaker 2: I want to be over here. It would be easier
Speaker 2: to hit a shot in from here. And when you're
Speaker 2: behind the green, it's really easy to tell this stuff,
Speaker 2: or if you take a photo from behind the green, right.
Speaker 2: So I think the big thing for me with greens
Speaker 2: is variety. You don't want all of them to be
Speaker 2: back to front. You don't want all of them to
Speaker 2: have You don't want all of them to be the
Speaker 2: craziest green you've ever seen.
Speaker 1: That's right. You don't want all of them to be huge.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you want like, you want some subtle ones.
Speaker 2: I think, like one of the things I've I've thought
Speaker 2: about a lot, and I think, you know, Bill core
Speaker 2: and Ben Crenshaw are I think among the best to
Speaker 2: ever do it. And one of the things I always am,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of walk away with the courses from
Speaker 2: is like I say that's such a cool green so often,
Speaker 2: and I can count on one hand how many times
Speaker 2: I've looked at green and been like, wow, that that
Speaker 2: might be a little too much, right, Like, they have
Speaker 2: such confidence. And one of the things that the confidence
Speaker 2: does is that those guys aren't afraid to build a
Speaker 2: really simple green. And I used to think that confidence
Speaker 2: was building something bold and something big with crazy you
Speaker 2: know crazy, you know, undulations in it. But now the
Speaker 2: more I've thought about it, the more I've seen, I
Speaker 2: think that the really great architects have the confidence to
Speaker 2: build something so subtle and simple and know that it's great. Right,
Speaker 2: It's a pretty tame green with one feature. You know,
Speaker 2: it doesn't have seventeen little pockets, and it's this combined
Speaker 2: with this, with this, it's just oh, this is a
Speaker 2: cool green. Sight. You know, you have to play up
Speaker 2: to this rise and we're just gonna put a little
Speaker 2: little bump in this spot and it's going to impact
Speaker 2: every single pin on the green.
Speaker 1: Yeah, great does not necessarily mean wild.
Speaker 2: So so with that, like a mixture of those types
Speaker 2: of greens with some other greens like where where you
Speaker 2: need to spice up a hole, they all relate back
Speaker 2: to the hole, right, and you know, if the course
Speaker 2: is a little bit flatter, then you might see a
Speaker 2: little bit more juice in the greens. Right. If the
Speaker 2: course has a little bit more going on in the land,
Speaker 2: then sometimes like subtle greens are the right thing because
Speaker 2: you're doing so much to get to the green, right,
Speaker 2: And I think that's the thing, is they it's hard
Speaker 2: to like say this is the you know, the greens
Speaker 2: relate to the site, because if the site is big
Speaker 2: and bold and has a ton of movement, you know,
Speaker 2: the greens. It's okay to have a little bit more
Speaker 2: quiet greens there because you know, everything else is you know,
Speaker 2: getting you there. But if the if the land's pretty
Speaker 2: flat and everything, you have to do stuff at the
Speaker 2: green in order to create the interest back right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally agree. Variety is the watchword. And I
Speaker 1: think variety also applies to pin positions on greens. Right.
Speaker 1: So a good set of greens, sometimes they'll be simple,
Speaker 1: sometimes they'll be small. Maybe there won't be many pin
Speaker 1: positions on those greens, but there need to be some
Speaker 1: greens on the course where you can find different pin
Speaker 1: positions in different sections of the greens that are meaningful
Speaker 1: for the strategy of the hole. That change something about
Speaker 1: how you ideally want to play the hole. Right, So,
Speaker 1: I think a variety of pin positions on an individual
Speaker 1: green is a really important thing to look for. If
Speaker 1: you look at a set of eighteen greens and you
Speaker 1: see a bunch of greens where you can't really put
Speaker 1: the pin in a bunch of different places, or where
Speaker 1: if you're putting the pin in different places, it doesn't
Speaker 1: really change anything about the way you attack the hole,
Speaker 1: then you might be dealing with a set of greens.
Speaker 1: This is a bit too simplistic to be interesting over
Speaker 1: the long haul. So I think this idea of standing
Speaker 1: behind a green and looking back at the hole, looking
Speaker 1: at how it relates to the way the hole is played,
Speaker 1: is the most important concept here. So if you're trying
Speaker 1: to introduce somebody to how greens are designed, or if
Speaker 1: somebody's curious about that, then taking them behind a green
Speaker 1: looking at it as it relates to the hole, and
Speaker 1: talking about how different areas of the green might be
Speaker 1: pinned and how that might change things. I think that's
Speaker 1: the most impactful discussion that you can have with somebody.
Speaker 1: But I would definitely advise making sure that that person
Speaker 1: wants to hear what you're talking about, because just spouting
Speaker 1: off about golf architecture at somebody can sometimes not have
Speaker 1: the intended effect, Which leads me to this next question
Speaker 1: that I'm curious to hear your reaction to from Jason Shanahan.
Speaker 1: Really good question. How do you balance talking course architecture
Speaker 1: with people who really don't care without sounding like a
Speaker 1: pompous ass. Well, first of all, I suggest not talking
Speaker 1: to people about it who don't care about golf art
Speaker 1: course architecture, who don't like it, you know, just you know,
Speaker 1: talk about movies or talk about the bears or something else.
Speaker 1: Second of all, I would suggest that asking us how
Speaker 1: not to sound like a pompous ass, some people would
Speaker 1: say that we are not the people to ask about that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But that said, do you have a response to this question, Anail?
Speaker 2: I talked with a lot of people about golf and
Speaker 2: you know, golf courses, and like, I mean, the biggest
Speaker 2: thing I think is just listen to people like I.
Speaker 2: Here's the thing I always think about. Golf courses to me,
Speaker 2: are a lot like restaurants. Okay, everybody has different tastes,
Speaker 2: and if everybody had the same taste, life would be
Speaker 2: pretty fucking boring, right, Like, so if I like one thing,
Speaker 2: if I like this restaurant and you know, my wife
Speaker 2: likes the other restaurant and doesn't like that one, like,
Speaker 2: I don't get like all snooty about it. I just say,
Speaker 2: that's weird. You know, I like that place, So like,
Speaker 2: why wouldn't apply the same thing, right And and like
Speaker 2: I'm fine giving my opinion on places. And I think
Speaker 2: this is an important like what would I say? What
Speaker 2: you say? What? Tom Doak says? What you know? Rhys
Speaker 2: Jones says, what It's all just an opinion. That's the
Speaker 2: beautiful thing about about it. It's art, it's it's to
Speaker 2: be judged, it's you know, you know, it's not everybody
Speaker 2: likes it. It makes different people people feel different ways.
Speaker 2: So I think the number one thing is just understanding
Speaker 2: that it's okay if somebody has a different opinion than you.
Speaker 2: And it's okay if somebody likes a said course. You know,
Speaker 2: in a lot of people, it's a hard thing to
Speaker 2: express why you like a course. I like to understand
Speaker 2: why I like a course. And I like to think
Speaker 2: about a golf course in a way that a lot
Speaker 2: of people don't think about courses, and that's you know,
Speaker 2: everybody plays golf for different reasons, and that's the beauty
Speaker 2: of the game. So that's what I would say, is like,
Speaker 2: if golf architecture is your thing, if you're listening to
Speaker 2: this podcast, it probably is, then like, yeah, that's cool,
Speaker 2: that's my thing. Like I've spent a lot of time
Speaker 2: with Garrett. Garrett's like a kind of a closet gearhead.
Speaker 2: I'm not so so, but like when Garrett starts picking
Speaker 2: up putters and fiddling around with them and talking about things,
Speaker 2: I don't, you know, I don't roll my eyes. I
Speaker 2: just listened to it and I might pick something up,
Speaker 2: you know. And I think that's the other thing is
Speaker 2: like I always approach caddying this way. And when I
Speaker 2: was like I was in high school, I was a
Speaker 2: high school golfer, I was playing AJGA tournaments. I was
Speaker 2: better than almost everybody that I candy for. But you know,
Speaker 2: you can't go in there with that mentality. You can't
Speaker 2: carry somebody's bag every day for eighteen holes knowing you're
Speaker 2: better than them and have that attitude of like I
Speaker 2: know more than about golf than you and be a
Speaker 2: good caddy. Right. The way I used to approach caddying
Speaker 2: was listen, Like, I know, I know way more about
Speaker 2: golf than this person, and I know I can tell
Speaker 2: them the shot they should hit, and they aren't going
Speaker 2: to listen to me. If I do, I'm not gonna
Speaker 2: do that. But something that this person says will probably
Speaker 2: help me understand the game of golf more because they
Speaker 2: might just understand something that I don't and something. It's
Speaker 2: the same thing with courses, right, Like somebody could love
Speaker 2: Reese Jones work and say something that I've never thought of, right.
Speaker 2: I'm not a big Reese Jones fan, right, So that's
Speaker 2: that's kind of my thing. It's just understanding that, like
Speaker 2: different different opinions, like and may this is just life advice, right,
Speaker 2: It's like different opinions. It's okay, it's not that end
Speaker 2: of the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And knowing that everybody has something of value
Speaker 1: to contribute to any subject, even if it's a subject
Speaker 1: you know a lot about and that the other person
Speaker 1: might just be getting into. Sometimes that can be a
Speaker 1: really interesting conversation. Like I'm always fascinated to hear what
Speaker 1: my wife has to say. About golf courses, whether we're
Speaker 1: at a golf course or we see one on TV.
Speaker 1: Her reaction it might not necessarily be my reaction. She
Speaker 1: might not be noticing things that I usually notice. But
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting to me to hear what she has
Speaker 1: to say, and it kind of gets me out of
Speaker 1: my bubble a little bit to hear that. At the
Speaker 1: same time, can I reframe this a little bit, because
Speaker 1: I think it's I think you have to do something
Speaker 1: more than say everybody has a different opinion, and that's okay.
Speaker 1: I think that's that's important. It's important to say that,
Speaker 1: but sometimes that's not quite enough. And the times when
Speaker 1: that's not quite enough is when say you're in a club,
Speaker 1: or say you're just a member at a public course
Speaker 1: or something, and the membership is having a discussion or
Speaker 1: a debate about what to do with the course, whether
Speaker 1: to change a certain hole, whether to restore something, whether
Speaker 1: to remove trees. All of these questions confront courses and
Speaker 1: clubs on a daily basis, and members have to debate
Speaker 1: with each other and figure out what to do right
Speaker 1: and so in that situation, saying oh, everybody has their
Speaker 1: own opinion and that's Okay, suddenly that doesn't quite work.
Speaker 1: And so how in that situation do you go about
Speaker 1: being a golf architecture nut, loving classic golf architecture and
Speaker 1: not coming off as a jerk, you know, And I
Speaker 1: think that that just to me, it just comes down
Speaker 1: to persuasion.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's not exercising.
Speaker 1: You have to be subtle about it, right, You have
Speaker 1: to like exercise some social graces and going about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've had a club with way too many trees
Speaker 2: and at one point in my life and I you know,
Speaker 2: I was young, I was in my twenties, and I
Speaker 2: like went about it way the wrong way. Like I
Speaker 2: got so many people like, what's this guy just hollering
Speaker 2: about trees? You know, you have to have some tax
Speaker 2: and some patience and and and that's I mean, it's hard.
Speaker 2: It's like anything in life. You have to be diplomatic.
Speaker 2: But I think the big thing is like show showing
Speaker 2: why you know, this was the way it was if
Speaker 2: you're restoring something, or I think a really good way
Speaker 2: to do it is to ask people what their favorite
Speaker 2: courses are and a lot of times like that, well,
Speaker 2: and you can glean something from that, right and be
Speaker 2: like hey, Like, you know, you said you like so
Speaker 2: and so course, well, like, oh, you say you like
Speaker 2: your courses abandon do they have a ton of trees
Speaker 2: and like it seems like they afford a lot of
Speaker 2: space off the play off the tee. That might be
Speaker 2: why you like them is that you know, you can
Speaker 2: get your ball out there and then you have a
Speaker 2: lot of different options on how you can hit into
Speaker 2: the green and you can play up the left or
Speaker 2: you could play up the right because there's enough space
Speaker 2: to do so. You know. So that's like a way
Speaker 2: to do it right is to kind of ask them
Speaker 2: questions and then work off that and make them almost
Speaker 2: you know, it's like an old sales trick, like make
Speaker 2: somebody think it's their idea.
Speaker 1: That's exactly what it is, right, and that is the
Speaker 1: most effective way to persuade somebody of something is to
Speaker 1: make them feel like it's in their interest or that
Speaker 1: it was even their idea to do something. And my
Speaker 1: belief is that most golfers kind of have fun with
Speaker 1: similar kinds of golf architecture. I don't believe that most
Speaker 1: golfers have a lot of fun playing super narrow, hard
Speaker 1: tree lined courses with a lot of rough Now, some
Speaker 1: golfers do enjoy that. I don't want to take anything
Speaker 1: away from that, but I would just hazard a guess
Speaker 1: that most golfers like something other than that, And so
Speaker 1: you know, we can eventually get to that conclusion together,
Speaker 1: but we just have to like not yell at each
Speaker 1: other about it first, and have each side kind of
Speaker 1: dig in and start making it about pride.
Speaker 2: I've got a question for you that's going to be
Speaker 2: hard for you not to sound like a pompous ask
Speaker 2: god from par Birdie Bertie. Oh no, which person has
Speaker 2: done the most damaged to golf architecture? A R T
Speaker 2: J JR B Dick NuGen See, Jack Nicholas or d
Speaker 2: Reese Johnson?
Speaker 1: You bastard? Okay, listen, Parr Birdie. Birdie asked actually a
Speaker 1: few questions and all of them were pretty pointed. So
Speaker 1: Parr Birdie, Birdie, hope, hope you're doing okay. It it
Speaker 1: seems like something is bothering you at but perhaps at
Speaker 1: your club. But in any case of those, God, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, Reyes Jones is really is really
Speaker 1: uh reek. Some havoc at at a lot of really
Speaker 1: really good courses.
Speaker 2: Because Jack though.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think ultimately you'd have to go
Speaker 1: with Jack nickolss there and okay, here, here's here's why
Speaker 1: I'm saying Jack Nicholas. It's not because I think that
Speaker 1: he's a clueless architect or that his best courses are bad.
Speaker 1: I think actually the best Jack Nicklass courses are really good,
Speaker 1: and some of them are really great places to hold
Speaker 1: pro tournaments, Mierfield Village being one of them. I've been
Speaker 1: more or less persuaded of this by Joseph Lamannia, but
Speaker 1: Mierfield Village is a terrific PGA tour venue, and Jack
Speaker 1: Nicholas clearly knows how to build that kind of course
Speaker 1: and make it interesting, make it challenging, and so the
Speaker 1: best Jack Nicholas courses are really good. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: Jack Nicholas is some kind of golf architecture idiot.
Speaker 2: But the.
Speaker 1: Problem starts with the factory model of Jack nicholas designs,
Speaker 1: and how many courses were built with the Jack Nicholas
Speaker 1: name on them that didn't necessarily have much input from
Speaker 1: Jack Nicholas, didn't necessarily represent much passion on his part
Speaker 1: in building them, creating them, and I think that that
Speaker 1: ultimately is the thing that gets golf architects in the
Speaker 1: end is the not paying attention to individual projects. Once
Speaker 1: they get too much work, once they're stretched too thin,
Speaker 1: once they stop caring about the course that they're building
Speaker 1: like it's life or death, then you start getting mediocre work.
Speaker 1: And that is I think the big problem that affects
Speaker 1: golf architecture, especially in boom times like we're having right now.
Speaker 1: So I think a question that all architects in this
Speaker 1: current kind of active moment in golf course development need
Speaker 1: to ask themselves is how much work can I really
Speaker 1: take on and remain passionate about each individual project. So
Speaker 1: I'm choosing Jack Nicholas because there are just way too
Speaker 1: many Jack Nicholas courses for him to have really cared
Speaker 1: about all of them.
Speaker 2: And I asked the question so I didn't have to
Speaker 2: answer it.
Speaker 1: So you've just hung me out to dry, like you've
Speaker 1: just completely abandoned me, just like just like tally on
Speaker 1: by Jack Nicholas. Hating hill. Yeah, thanks Andy, All right,
Speaker 1: question from cheesehead sports nut. Great great name.
Speaker 2: Ah yeah, Wisconsin sports suck.
Speaker 1: And that's your hill, all right, She's head sports nut.
Speaker 1: Che's head the lidos seems like a true golf course architecture,
Speaker 1: modern marvel on a number of levels. Do you see
Speaker 1: that being a total one offer paving the way for
Speaker 1: other lost courses to be rebuilt? Okay, so some context,
Speaker 1: I mean probably just about everybody listening to this knows this.
Speaker 1: But Tom Doak and his team are rebuilding C. B.
Speaker 1: McDonald's lost Liedo Golf Club in the middle of Wisconsin
Speaker 1: near the Sand Valley Golf Resort, and they are using
Speaker 1: kind of some innovative methods to really recreate exactly what
Speaker 1: that course might have been at the ground level. So
Speaker 1: that's the project that Cheese had Sportsnut is referring to
Speaker 1: and asking whether that's just one thing that will happen
Speaker 1: one time, or whether it's going to open up a
Speaker 1: new kind of possibility in golf course architecture.
Speaker 2: What do you think about that, Andy, I'm really excited
Speaker 2: about seeing the lido. I don't know how many lido
Speaker 2: type projects I want to see. I don't like the
Speaker 2: idea of getting in the habit of copying holes straight
Speaker 2: straight up. I don't like, you know, in this case,
Speaker 2: the Lido was considered by some the greatest course of
Speaker 2: its era. And it's gone. And I think it's very
Speaker 2: important to use this type of technology in that vein.
Speaker 2: Am I bringing something back that was truly the best
Speaker 2: course or one of the five best courses and it's gone.
Speaker 2: And I can't think of many courses that are in
Speaker 2: that type of vein as the Leado. So with that said,
Speaker 2: I would hate to see people start to use this
Speaker 2: technology to recreate holes at other golf courses because why
Speaker 2: not hire a talented architect and let them build stuff
Speaker 2: on their own? Why Like, who would want the you
Speaker 2: know in their heyday? Who would want the rolling Stones
Speaker 2: to try and be the Beatles? It's silly, right what hire?
Speaker 2: Push the the practice of golf architecture into the future,
Speaker 2: not live in the past, right, Like use the principles
Speaker 2: of those great courses to build new stuff and you know,
Speaker 2: tweak it. Don't just copy what happened like that. That's
Speaker 2: just repel art and that's not good. So I think
Speaker 2: like there there's some of this with like the Rainer
Speaker 2: McDonald's stuff, and I'm I'm a huge Rainer McDonald fan,
Speaker 2: But there can be twists of those templates and those
Speaker 2: templates were were you know, there are a lot of
Speaker 2: differences in the templates at different courses. Right, it's great
Speaker 2: to have, but like building straight up a template course,
Speaker 2: Like I think it's great to give architects the chance
Speaker 2: to build what they want to build.
Speaker 1: You know, create something new.
Speaker 2: Think about hiring a great artist and like telling them what.
Speaker 1: To paint yeah yeah, or or having them paint according
Speaker 1: to kind of like a machine learning adaptation of Michelangelo
Speaker 1: or something, you know like that.
Speaker 2: That So.
Speaker 1: The Leado is one of one, the original Leado, the
Speaker 1: CB McDonald Lido. There there was no other golf course
Speaker 1: like that golf course, not one, And so I think
Speaker 1: that this project of recreating the Lido should similarly be
Speaker 1: unique because the Lido was unique. So it justifies this
Speaker 1: project and the methods that they used to recreate the course.
Speaker 1: But golf architecture has to move forward, right, Once we
Speaker 1: start using new technology to recreate lost courses, our reverence
Speaker 1: for Golden age golf course architecture has gone way too far.
Speaker 1: We're going to start living in this kind of nostalgia, right,
Speaker 1: instead of pushing forward, finding new things, using old ideas
Speaker 1: and spinning them in some way to create something new.
Speaker 1: That's what art has to do. In order to remain
Speaker 1: a live So honestly, using this technology that they've used
Speaker 1: at the New Leader in Wisconsin to do other golf
Speaker 1: course projects, I think is wou would pose a major
Speaker 1: threat to the art of golf course design. And I
Speaker 1: really really hope that people don't do it, like I
Speaker 1: think it's I think that would be a very very
Speaker 1: bad thing. So if you're thinking about doing it, please don't.
Speaker 1: All right, moving on, Yeah, all right, we probably have
Speaker 1: time for one or two more questions here. Here's an
Speaker 1: interesting one from Andy Lack, fellow podcaster. Really good question.
Speaker 1: If a new architect came to you and said, I
Speaker 1: can go anywhere in the world to study one course
Speaker 1: before I build mine, where would you send him? So
Speaker 1: I think this question part of its premise is that
Speaker 1: you know the land of course, we would advise the
Speaker 1: architect go find this a course built on a similar
Speaker 1: piece of land and kind of study that, like the
Speaker 1: greatest course built on X piece of land. Study that
Speaker 1: that would probably be the real move. But let's just think,
Speaker 1: you know, in general, what would be the greatest place
Speaker 1: to learn how to do golf course architecture.
Speaker 2: Ah, that's a great question. I personally I think a
Speaker 2: lot of golf course construction and golf architecture. Golf courses
Speaker 2: are very socially irresponsible in terms of their waste and
Speaker 2: their opulence. So to me, if I was going to
Speaker 2: send somebody who was thinking about building a golf course
Speaker 2: to a course, I would send them to sand Hills
Speaker 2: because there is you know, you have a masterpiece of
Speaker 2: golf design. And also it shows that everything doesn't need
Speaker 2: to be over the top to be a great place
Speaker 2: and a great place to hang out. Like you know,
Speaker 2: you're building these courses and really you're building a golf course,
Speaker 2: so everything should be centered around the golf course like
Speaker 2: everything else. Like it's nice to have nice stuff at
Speaker 2: golf courses, but they are really unnecessary. And I think,
Speaker 2: like from a facility standpoint, sand Hills is the place
Speaker 2: that to me, it just it always leaves an impact
Speaker 2: on me as to like, hey, you know, everything doesn't
Speaker 2: need to be five star. If you have the best
Speaker 2: golf course in the world, all you know, one of
Speaker 2: the best golf courses in the world. All you want
Speaker 2: to do is get people out to play the golf course,
Speaker 2: Like and the lodging doesn't have to be extraordinary you're
Speaker 2: gonna be exhausted after a day of playing golf. You know,
Speaker 2: they have good food, they have strong drinks, they have
Speaker 2: you know, comfortable beds, and unbelievable golf course that's maintained
Speaker 2: for far, far less than you know, most golf courses
Speaker 2: in his class.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's appropriate to go there if you're a
Speaker 1: modern architect. Sand Hills is kind of at the at
Speaker 1: the genesis of you know, what we now know of
Speaker 1: as modern golf course architecture. This, this new era of
Speaker 1: golf course architecture, sand Hills is is kind of the course.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I agree with a lot of that. You know,
Speaker 1: a lot of people would probably say the old course,
Speaker 1: you know, good one too. Yeah, So that that that's
Speaker 1: probably it's that has that has proven over time. The
Speaker 1: old course has its bona fides as a school room
Speaker 1: for golf course architects. That's where so many great golf
Speaker 1: course architects have gone to learn about the craft of
Speaker 1: golf course design, from you know, early twentieth century architects
Speaker 1: through to the present day. You know, many many golf
Speaker 1: course architects have learned their most important lessons from that course.
Speaker 1: But we are you know, we're Americans, with a lot
Speaker 1: of our coverage is kind of American based.
Speaker 2: So well, if you think about those two that we
Speaker 2: picked out, they're roughly too cheap, probably maybe the two
Speaker 2: cheapest courses to build up their era.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, two of the most natural courses. And the
Speaker 1: old course wasn't I'm not even sure you could call
Speaker 1: it built the enemy. Well that's what I said, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: and so that that's that. Yeah, it goes to show
Speaker 1: you you don't need to do too much the course.
Speaker 2: Honestly, like so many courses, if they just did seventy
Speaker 2: percent less would be better places. Like that's the crazy
Speaker 2: thing to me just from my lens. And this again,
Speaker 2: this is you know, as somebody who this is tons
Speaker 2: of places every year. To me, my general takeaway is,
Speaker 2: well I could have done without that more so than
Speaker 2: I really wish they had this. Like I find myself
Speaker 2: more often being like, well that was a little too much,
Speaker 2: more than I really wish they had this. Like the
Speaker 2: only thing that I ever am like I really wish,
Speaker 2: I really wish there was more water to drink on
Speaker 2: a golf course is really like what I find myself
Speaker 2: saying the most.
Speaker 1: Well, here's something that I find myself doing a lot
Speaker 1: at golf courses that maybe aren't architecturally the best. And
Speaker 1: I do play those courses and enjoy them because it's
Speaker 1: golf and it's all fun. But whatever. Sometimes if I
Speaker 1: hit a ball way offline and I'm kind of hunting
Speaker 1: off the golf course in whatever the natural area around
Speaker 1: the golf course is, sometimes I'll find myself enjoying myself
Speaker 1: more in that environment than I did in the environment
Speaker 1: of the golf course, and I think to myself that
Speaker 1: this course has been overbuilt or the agronomy is trying
Speaker 1: to do too much to separate it from its natural environment.
Speaker 1: And I think that's probably the biggest lesson that you
Speaker 1: can learn from sand Hills in the Old Course, is
Speaker 1: that the natural landscape is the most beautiful thing. It's
Speaker 1: the thing that we humans are sort of genetically coded
Speaker 1: to respond well to, and so try to keep that intact. Now,
Speaker 1: the course, I'll just mention this quickly because it's not
Speaker 1: as good of an answer as sand Hills or the
Speaker 1: Old Course. But the course that I would maybe send
Speaker 1: an architect to would be Old Town Club. I think
Speaker 1: that would be that would be a cool place to
Speaker 1: go to learn about golf course architecture because across the
Speaker 1: board Old Town Club does everything well. It's beautifully routed,
Speaker 1: the greens are so interestingly designed. The restoration of that
Speaker 1: course by Corn Crenshaw is absolutely spot on. And it's
Speaker 1: not on the most extraordinary piece of land in the world. Now,
Speaker 1: it's a really good piece of golfing terrain, like it's
Speaker 1: it's fantastic, no doubt about it. But this is not
Speaker 1: built on you know, the sand dunes of coastal Oregon.
Speaker 1: This is not on linksland. This is a fairly ordinary
Speaker 1: parkland property. Period dramatic. This is a above average parkland property,
Speaker 1: let's call it, or something beautiful.
Speaker 2: Wildhorse would be a great one.
Speaker 1: Wildhorse was was probably my other thought because the ones
Speaker 1: we've mentioned so far, I mean, aside from the Old
Speaker 1: Course are are private clubs, and so you know, Wildhorse
Speaker 1: very accessible and beautifully designed.
Speaker 2: I got one here from Ben Herms. This may be
Speaker 2: is our last one. Is it wrong to judge classic
Speaker 2: courses against modern ones? Or I'm just gonna tweak this
Speaker 2: a little bit or minimalist slash found courses against manufactured ones,
Speaker 2: like should they be judged different, judged differently because they're
Speaker 2: classic and modern or minimalist versus.
Speaker 1: So those are two different subjects, but they're both interesting.
Speaker 2: Like should they be should we judge different types of
Speaker 2: courses against each other, you know, across generations or you
Speaker 2: know styles.
Speaker 1: I think the short answer is is yes, you can
Speaker 1: compare anything while also offering the caveats that this is
Speaker 1: what the course is trying to do. Okay, so we
Speaker 1: just talked about the wonders of natural golf courses, but
Speaker 1: what about Shadow Creek?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: Is that course was that was the purpose of that
Speaker 1: course ever going to be to be a tribute a
Speaker 1: love note to the natural landscape or ledo which was
Speaker 1: built on a marsh right and was and was really created.
Speaker 1: So I think that yeah, I mean it's it's not
Speaker 1: wrong to compare Shadow Creek to the old course at
Speaker 1: Saint Andrew's, like you you can do it like there,
Speaker 1: they have their golf courses, they have nothing common so
Speaker 1: that you can compare them and talk about why you
Speaker 1: like one more than the other. But yeah, sure, you
Speaker 1: have to keep in mind what the course was trying
Speaker 1: to accomplish with what it was given. You can also
Speaker 1: ask the question of whether you know courses should be
Speaker 1: built on desert wasteland at all, whether whether that's a
Speaker 1: good thing to do in the first place. Now, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to be able to stop anybody from building
Speaker 1: desert courses by just saying I disapprove, But I don't
Speaker 1: necessarily think that that was golf as it's meant to
Speaker 1: be or golf as I prefer it. And I think
Speaker 1: that that's okay to say that. I just like the
Speaker 1: course that's built on a setting that's naturally suited to
Speaker 1: golf more than the course that was built on a
Speaker 1: setting that really rejects golf at every turn. I've kind
Speaker 1: of wandered off the subject. I don't know. I think
Speaker 1: you can compare the courses. You just have to keep
Speaker 1: in mind what they're trying to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have thoughts on this too, from the sense of,
Speaker 2: you know, the rankings right e anyway ranks courses. It's like, well,
Speaker 2: you know, the reality is like a course could be better,
Speaker 2: but I might want to play a different course more.
Speaker 2: You know. Championship courses are great examples of this, Like
Speaker 2: I you know, you go to so many clubs that
Speaker 2: have multiple courses in a championship course and a non
Speaker 2: championship course, and the non championship course is more popular
Speaker 2: with his members than the championship course, Like they play
Speaker 2: the championship course when they bring guests out, Like, so,
Speaker 2: what's the better course? What's the better course? Like is
Speaker 2: the better course of the course that the members want
Speaker 2: to play more that? You know, what restaurants better the
Speaker 2: one that I want to eat at more? Like there's
Speaker 2: different types of restaurants right now, Like there's those once
Speaker 2: in a like once every once in a while restaurants
Speaker 2: that blow your socks off, like with great food and everything,
Speaker 2: but you're like, I wouldn't want to do this regularly, right,
Speaker 2: And it's the same thing with golf courses. There are
Speaker 2: courses that like really like you know, blow your mind
Speaker 2: and you're like, god, this is incredible, but they're like
Speaker 2: taxing and you're kind of like, I don't think I
Speaker 2: would want to do this every day. And then you
Speaker 2: have like the courses that you're like, got it. I
Speaker 2: just wish I could play this every day. I would
Speaker 2: die a happy person. But like, so which one's better? Right?
Speaker 2: And this is the problem with rankings and saying this
Speaker 2: course is better than this course. You know, in a vacuum. Right,
Speaker 2: there are different qualities to courses. It's almost like superlatives. Right.
Speaker 2: There are great everyday courses. This is this is a club,
Speaker 2: This is a place I'd want to be a member at.
Speaker 2: This is a public course that want to play every day. Now,
Speaker 2: this course is the most dramatic, most spectacular course, right,
Speaker 2: And if I was going to play one place before
Speaker 2: I died, I want to play that place, right. And
Speaker 2: the that's the thing is like that place against the
Speaker 2: place that is the best, is the place I want
Speaker 2: to play every day. I might play the place I
Speaker 2: want to play every day seven times to three over
Speaker 2: the spectacular one. But if I had one round, I'd
Speaker 2: play the other, of course, so which one's better? Like?
Speaker 2: This is the silly thing with the rankings. The rankings
Speaker 2: are so that they cause such damage because the reality
Speaker 2: of the rankings is that they are centered around dramatic
Speaker 2: land and difficulty. For the most part, I think golf
Speaker 2: dot Com has done a good job of kind of
Speaker 2: getting away from that, but especially golf digest is like,
Speaker 2: if you don't have dramatic land or a really hard course,
Speaker 2: good luck, good luck, And what's that do for the
Speaker 2: course Without dramatic land. Then they try and make their
Speaker 2: course really hard in order to, you know, compel raiders
Speaker 2: to think that it is a good course. This is
Speaker 2: the disease of the rankings and the harm that so
Speaker 2: many rankings have done to golf architecture. Instead of golf
Speaker 2: courses thinking about how do we be the best course
Speaker 2: we can be and what our identity is, they try
Speaker 2: and build their identity off what they're rated on, which
Speaker 2: is just asinine.
Speaker 1: You took that question a different direction than I was
Speaker 1: thinking of it. I was thinking of it as like,
Speaker 1: how would I determine my favorite course? How would I
Speaker 1: compare one course to another, or you know, do that?
Speaker 1: But you're thinking of it in terms of how do
Speaker 1: you determine which course's best? And that process of trying
Speaker 1: to figure out which course is the best and getting
Speaker 1: a bunch of different people together and asking them to
Speaker 1: collectively come up with an idea of which course's best
Speaker 1: is always going to be a pretty silly process. I
Speaker 1: totally agree with that, and it happens to be a
Speaker 1: process that has become institutionalized in the golf course industry
Speaker 1: and has had a pretty bad effect on what golf
Speaker 1: courses do. So I'm with you on that. But I
Speaker 1: think it's different to just talk about favorite courses because
Speaker 1: you can come up with your own idiosyncratic criteria and
Speaker 1: just make decisions based on that. You know. On this trip,
Speaker 1: we've played some some really great courses, but the one
Speaker 1: that I keep thinking about, the one that I really love,
Speaker 1: is Cape Arundle. I also think that Essex County Club
Speaker 1: is one of the best courses I've ever played, but
Speaker 1: maybe my favorite on the trip was Cape Rundle.
Speaker 2: Probably arguably the least. It's definitely probably the least spectacular
Speaker 2: land of the trip. The settings idyllic right Land is quiet, yeah,
Speaker 2: And and I think that's the thing is like, that's
Speaker 2: a great everyday course. That's the course you would love
Speaker 2: to play every day because of a lot of things,
Speaker 2: and one of them being like it's super easy to
Speaker 2: go around it, like it's not going to kill you.
Speaker 1: It's a course that's suited to me because I'm a
Speaker 1: golfer of pretty average abilities and pretty average length off
Speaker 1: the tee, and it's fifty eight hundred yards and it
Speaker 1: really feels like a pleasure to play that course as
Speaker 1: opposed to hitting five wood into every grain, and that
Speaker 1: is something that can't enter that kind of thinking, can't
Speaker 1: enter into the discussion when you talk about best courses,
Speaker 1: and especially when you talk about best courses as rated
Speaker 1: by a group of people, you can't start talking about
Speaker 1: what your particular game is or what your particular preferences are.
Speaker 1: And so I think when you move from favorite to best,
Speaker 1: a lot of things happen, and a lot of them
Speaker 1: aren't very good.
Speaker 2: All right, I think that's a good stapping point. We're
Speaker 2: right around an hour here, yeah, so let's wrap up there.
Speaker 2: Thank you guys for listening to another edition of the
Speaker 2: Friday Podcast. Today's episode was edited by the wonderful meg Adkins.
Speaker 2: She does a great job with many many things, including
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