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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha, and welcome to stuff.

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Speaker 1: I never told your production of I Heart Radio. So

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Speaker 1: for today's question, Samantha, I very important need to know of,

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Speaker 1: like the kind of classic stereotypical monsters, which is the

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Speaker 1: one that scared you the most, scared me the most?

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Speaker 1: Do ghosts count? I'll allow it. I was thinking more

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Speaker 1: of like the universal assumed, but I don't think I

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Speaker 1: ever really scared of any of those things because it

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Speaker 1: seemed also caricaturish that I never thought of it. But

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Speaker 1: to me, ghosts could be real. That's like not the

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Speaker 1: best example, but like you know, the idea that there's

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Speaker 1: unknown about death, death in itself, you know what happens

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Speaker 1: after death, who exists and whatnot. And because also growing

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Speaker 1: up in a very religious home, you know, people come

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Speaker 1: back to life apparently, you know, race from the dead.

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Speaker 1: So that's what I assume. But I guess, if anything,

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Speaker 1: maybe I was the most scared of like vampires. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but of course I also had the girly like, oh

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Speaker 1: it's also sexy and romantic feel about them. Oh sure,

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Speaker 1: so very mixed feelings on that. That's very confusing, confusing.

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Speaker 1: Maybe witches, which is are those monsters. I guess it depends. Certainly,

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Speaker 1: in a lot of these horror movies, they are right,

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Speaker 1: So I guess because like the Blair Witch Project, stuff

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Speaker 1: like that really scared the hell out of me. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was good stuff. What about you? I agree. I

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Speaker 1: think I've in a similar vein where like, I always

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Speaker 1: thought mummies were really kind of silly, especially in older

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Speaker 1: movies because you know technology, They moved very slowly, and

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Speaker 1: I kind of thought it was funny. They're adaptions of

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Speaker 1: were wolves that really scared me, but in general they didn't.

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Speaker 1: Their adaptions of vampires that really scared me, but in

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Speaker 1: general they didn't. And I don't know if you know this,

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Speaker 1: but for a while growing up, I had this I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't call it an imaginary friend, but it was like

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Speaker 1: a nightmare that I had that was recurring about this

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Speaker 1: vampire named Vinegar. I named him that because they smelled

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Speaker 1: like vinegar, and if I spelled vinegar, I've like freak out.

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Speaker 1: It was the whole thing. Wow, Yeah, it's a very detailed,

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Speaker 1: like perception of a monster. Oh yeah, my friends, you

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Speaker 1: grew up with me. If I bought up vinegar, they

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Speaker 1: would know who I was talking about. When one time

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Speaker 1: we tried to talk to him on the Guiji board

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Speaker 1: and after that, I like threw away my weigi board

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Speaker 1: because it scared me so right, Oh, you played. I

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Speaker 1: don't think I've ever played with the Ouiji boar because

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Speaker 1: I was scared of that. Yeah. Oh it scared me.

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Speaker 1: It scared me good. But the classic episode we wanted

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Speaker 1: to bring back this one that Kristen and Caroline did

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Speaker 1: way back on the Woman Pharaoh and that it was

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Speaker 1: an interview episode and we wanted to bring it back

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Speaker 1: because we just did our episode on one of the

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Speaker 1: feminist adventure acting adventure movies of our time, The Mummy,

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Speaker 1: the which that movie. As I said that, I don't

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Speaker 1: think the mommy scared me. The bugs scared me, right,

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Speaker 1: but definitely more frightening than the slow walking kind of

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Speaker 1: bandage wrapped one. The ride scared me more with the

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Speaker 1: mommies in it. Oh yeah, that's that's a good ride. Um. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: we hope you enjoyed this classic episode. Welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: Mom Never told You from House Toupports dot com. Hello

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline and I'm Kristen,

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Speaker 1: and today on the podcast, we have a really special guest.

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Speaker 1: Kristen and I are talking to Egyptologist, professor and pretty

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Speaker 1: much all around amazing person, Kara Cooney. Cooney is the

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Speaker 1: author of The Woman Would Be King hat cheps That's

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Speaker 1: Rise to Power, all about this amazing figure in history,

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Speaker 1: hat cheps That, who was the sixth pharaoh of the

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Speaker 1: Eighteenth dynasty. And you know, honestly, we don't know a

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Speaker 1: lot about her inner life, her personal life, but we

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Speaker 1: do know quite a bit now about how she ruled,

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Speaker 1: and she definitely was an interesting and different figure for history,

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Speaker 1: unique if only in the fact that she was a

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Speaker 1: female pharaoh or a woman king, which seems like an

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Speaker 1: oxymoron almost um. And what we're going to talk to

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Speaker 1: Cooney about is just how she was such a powerful

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Speaker 1: and effective ruler who really maintained her empire's position in

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Speaker 1: the world. And we're going to find out more about

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Speaker 1: how she came to that power and also how her

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Speaker 1: gender played such a strong role, not only in the

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Speaker 1: path that she had to take to grasp that power,

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Speaker 1: but also in her leg to see being diminished in

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways. And the reason that we don't

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Speaker 1: know more about sort of the inner workings of how

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Speaker 1: she came to power beyond the actual steps that you

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Speaker 1: have to take to become king, has to do a

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Speaker 1: lot with the fact that those darn Egyptians did not

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Speaker 1: record anything other than their super official histories and facts

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Speaker 1: about their rulers. They weren't writing down who was sleeping

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Speaker 1: with whom or how hat cheps It clawed her way

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Speaker 1: to power. And so there's been a lot of conjecture

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Speaker 1: over the years about how this woman came to be

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Speaker 1: a leader. Um, but so one important person that we

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Speaker 1: can turn to to answer some of those questions is

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Speaker 1: Kara Cooney. And so, without further ado, let's let the

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Speaker 1: interview role. First of all, Dr Cooney, could you introduce

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Speaker 1: yourself to our listeners and tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: about why you wanted to write a book on hat

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Speaker 1: cheps It. Sure thing. My name's Kira Cooney, and I

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Speaker 1: teach at U c l A. I'm a professor at

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Speaker 1: U c l A. And I didn't want to write

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Speaker 1: a book on hot cheps And I was actually approached

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Speaker 1: by my lead age and who said you should write

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Speaker 1: a book about hot chefs It. And I just thought,

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Speaker 1: why does this woman keep haunting me? What is going on?

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Speaker 1: Why did I've done this TV show for Discovery about

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Speaker 1: hot chefs that a couple of years before, which I

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Speaker 1: assumed he had seen. Otherwise he wouldn't have asked me

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Speaker 1: to to then write the book. And academics like to

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Speaker 1: stay in their own little niches, their own little little boxes.

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Speaker 1: And he said, I said, I can't write a book

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Speaker 1: about hot chefs, And He's like, why not? And I said,

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Speaker 1: because I do the nineteenth and twentieth dynasty and hot chefs.

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Speaker 1: It is the age. And the more I thought about

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Speaker 1: how silly that was, and how we we stick too

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Speaker 1: much to our our expected work and our expected research,

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Speaker 1: And the more I thought about female power and how interesting,

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Speaker 1: um it is that this woman was able to surmount

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Speaker 1: so many obstacles and able to climb to the very

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Speaker 1: highest pinnacle of political authority. I thought, Okay, yeah, I'd

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Speaker 1: like to write this book, and I'd like to do

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Speaker 1: it differently than than anyone else has done it before. Well,

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Speaker 1: could you talk a little bit about the Egyptian attitude

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Speaker 1: toward women rulers in general, and how powerful women could become,

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Speaker 1: and also sort of the available avenues to power for

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Speaker 1: women at the time. Ancient Egypt is an unusual place.

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Speaker 1: It's it's unique in the world in many ways. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a giant oasis, if you like. And

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Speaker 1: it's protected on all four sides geographically Mediterranean Sea to

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Speaker 1: the north, deserts on the other three sides, cataracts down

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Speaker 1: to the south. I mean, it's just it's a place

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Speaker 1: that can develop in a microcosm, soone for thousands of years,

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Speaker 1: and it encourages a culture that enjoys status quo and

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Speaker 1: continuity and doesn't like to have a lot of upheaval

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Speaker 1: and coups, and and in Asians they don't have to

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Speaker 1: deal with a lot of that because who have a

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Speaker 1: culture that enjoys continuity. They created a political system that

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Speaker 1: divinized kingship beyond anything that that had ever been seen

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Speaker 1: and arguably anywhere in the world. It's it's a more

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Speaker 1: divinized kingship than than perhaps any other system anywhere in

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Speaker 1: the world. And when you have a culture that is

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Speaker 1: very interested in king following king following king in the

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Speaker 1: same family at nauseam forever divinized. If there's a problem

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Speaker 1: with the succession, if the king is too young, if

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Speaker 1: there's an issue, then because you have a culture that's

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Speaker 1: risk averse and interested in continuity. They'll allow a woman

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Speaker 1: to come to the throne, to serve as regent for

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Speaker 1: a young king, or in some cases to even as

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Speaker 1: act as king in her own right. And more women

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Speaker 1: were allowed to rule and come to the center of

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Speaker 1: the wheel, if you like, in Egypt than than in

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Speaker 1: any other place, any other place in the world. And

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Speaker 1: so you can talk about women like hot Cheps. So

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Speaker 1: you can also talk about tawas Rat Metacras to some extent.

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Speaker 1: You can talk about a woman named so the Coteps,

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Speaker 1: you can talk about Cleopatra net for TV. There are

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Speaker 1: many female names known from Egypt, and that is an anomaly,

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Speaker 1: that is that is unusual and different from the rest

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Speaker 1: of the world. We would love to hear some more details,

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Speaker 1: especially about the avenues through which these women could attained power.

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Speaker 1: I know, for instance, in hot Chops it's case that

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Speaker 1: there was a lot to do with religious avenues and

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Speaker 1: being queen regent. So, yeah, could you talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about those avenues. Well, it's it's an interesting

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Speaker 1: thing that the avenues to power are generally connected to

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Speaker 1: the king. So a woman acts in support of the

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Speaker 1: king first and then can catapult herself into power in

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Speaker 1: her own right, and Hot Sheeps's case, she was regent

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Speaker 1: for a very very young king. And when I say young,

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Speaker 1: I mean one and a half years old, two years old.

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Speaker 1: You know, when they crowned him, he was probably chewing

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Speaker 1: on his crook and flail and a crown wouldn't fit.

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Speaker 1: And they probably couldn't keep him on the throne for

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Speaker 1: longer than a minute. And he wasn't paying attention to anything.

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Speaker 1: He probably couldn't really speak any of the incantations he

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Speaker 1: was supposed to. It was probably a pretty messy affair.

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Speaker 1: She's the one in control, and she was then, at

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Speaker 1: the age of sixteen, perhaps in control of Egypt until

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Speaker 1: he came of age, which would have taken other fourteen fifteen,

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Speaker 1: sixteen years and extraordinary thing within that amount of time.

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Speaker 1: She then used her ideological power as Egypt's highest priestess,

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Speaker 1: the god's wife Voman, to then catapult herself into the

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Speaker 1: kingship itself. Now, other women had had different methods, but

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Speaker 1: no one ruled Egypt for as long as Hot with

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Speaker 1: with as much power systematized um centralized power as Hot

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Speaker 1: cheps it. But other women like Um, like Nutacras or

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Speaker 1: sobek no fruit. They came to power at the end

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Speaker 1: of a dynasty when their father, the king was unable

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Speaker 1: to sire a son for whatever reason, there was only

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Speaker 1: a daughter left. Then they would allow um a woman

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Speaker 1: to be king and come to the throne that way.

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Speaker 1: Another woman there for TV. She came to the throne

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Speaker 1: after the death of her husband Akana, and perhaps there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of arguments surrounding her kingship, but she came

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Speaker 1: to the throne at the time to get an extreme

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Speaker 1: ideological crisis, and she's holding on to the remnants of

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Speaker 1: this tattered religious experiment. And another woman like Kawasa in

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Speaker 1: the nineteenth dynasty, she's very much like like um sobec

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Speaker 1: no fou and the talkers, willing at the end of

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Speaker 1: a dynasty, trying to hold together the last remnants of

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Speaker 1: her family line. And then there's Cleopatra, who, very much

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Speaker 1: like hot Chef's Foot, knows that to rule for an

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Speaker 1: extended period of time, she has to rule with a

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Speaker 1: mail by her side, a masculine entity. Had Chef's Foot

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Speaker 1: always ruled with her nephew by her side. He was

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Speaker 1: growing up as as she went along, as she took

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Speaker 1: on the kingship Cleopatra, first with her father, then with

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Speaker 1: a brother, one brother after another succession, and each of

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Speaker 1: whom she may have had a hand in murdering. And

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Speaker 1: then she ruled arguably alongside to Roman warlord. She made

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Speaker 1: sure she always had masculine support while she was inhabiting

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Speaker 1: her own kingship. So there is no such thing in

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Speaker 1: the ancient world. This is frustrating to me. It's probably

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Speaker 1: frustrating to you. There's no such thing in the ancient

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Speaker 1: world as a pure, unsullied feminine king ship. It doesn't exist.

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Speaker 1: Every female king or every female political leader in Egypt,

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Speaker 1: she a woman, calls herself a king, not a queen

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Speaker 1: who there's no political connotations that work. Every female king

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Speaker 1: in ancient Egypt had a male counterpart or some sort

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Speaker 1: of masculine entity by her side, and the same holds

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Speaker 1: true for the rest of the ancient world. If you

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Speaker 1: look at Northwest Asia, or you look at the Mediterranean region,

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Speaker 1: or you look at China, you look at the women

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Speaker 1: who are able to achieve that that highest cinnacal of power.

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Speaker 1: Every single one of them that ruled for an extended

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Speaker 1: creative time had some sort of male counterpart as support well.

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Speaker 1: One of the fascinating things that jumped out to me

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Speaker 1: about hat chep Suit being sort of accidentally groomed to

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Speaker 1: rule is how she not only aligned herself with male

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Speaker 1: human male counterparts, but also male counterparts in a religious

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Speaker 1: sense as well, in a divine sense. Could you talk

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Speaker 1: about how she also helps solidify her rule through aligning

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Speaker 1: herself with the gods, making herself divine in that way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Cheps grew up in the temple. She was God's wife

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Speaker 1: of Omine, Egypt's most important high priestess, during the reign

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Speaker 1: of her father, probably as young. Training probably began for

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Speaker 1: her as young as eight or nine years old, maybe

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Speaker 1: even younger, which means that that temple space, those cool

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Speaker 1: stone walls, the incense smell, the chanting of the priest,

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Speaker 1: the son slanting in through the clerestory windows, all of

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Speaker 1: that was just into It was just in her bones.

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Speaker 1: It was something that she knew. She also saw her father,

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Speaker 1: to Mos of the First come to power, not being

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Speaker 1: born for the kingship himself, because the king before him,

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Speaker 1: um in Hotel the First had died without a son,

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Speaker 1: without an heir, and they had named at Mos of

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Speaker 1: the first, a living breathing man not directly related to

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Speaker 1: the king to be the next king, and had sheeps

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Speaker 1: saw her father because she's standing next to him as

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Speaker 1: he was high priestess. Right, she sees her father using

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Speaker 1: really Jen, using the Oracle of alman Rae, using all

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Speaker 1: of these tools at his disposal to create a farm

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Speaker 1: foundation for his kingship to say to his people, yes,

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Speaker 1: I know that we have a dynastic succession problem, but

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Speaker 1: that God has chosen me, and let me prove it

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Speaker 1: you and show you how Chepsaid actually reveals more to us,

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Speaker 1: pulls the veil away from the religious goings on more

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Speaker 1: than any other king before. So she tells us about

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Speaker 1: the Oracle of alman Rae and how it actually marked

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Speaker 1: her for power. The oracle was this way of taking

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Speaker 1: the God's most sacred precious vessel, the golden statue of

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Speaker 1: the God out of its shrine, was placed into a

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Speaker 1: portable shrine, placed onto a boat shaped thing that was

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Speaker 1: held a loss by priests holding two long carrying sticks,

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Speaker 1: and like twenty priests would carry this bark out of

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Speaker 1: the temple with the God's statue carefully in cas inside,

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Speaker 1: and people would be allowed to approach the bark, asking

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Speaker 1: questions a the oracle as it's leaving the temple, things

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Speaker 1: about what was going to happen in Egypt's political future,

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Speaker 1: what kinds of problems they had to worry about on

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Speaker 1: one festival day, the oracle was brought out in a

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Speaker 1: time period of great crisis. People were worried about the succession,

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Speaker 1: who was going to be king next, They were worried

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Speaker 1: about um to most of the second being sickly. Perhaps

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Speaker 1: we don't know the details of what was happening, but

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Speaker 1: we know there was worry about who was going to

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Speaker 1: be king next and who was going to take power.

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Speaker 1: And the oracle was brought out, and pat Chepsti writes

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Speaker 1: the story about and records it in her red chapel,

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Speaker 1: and she tells us that the priest holding the oracle

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Speaker 1: aloft were rudderless, leaderless. They didn't know where to move,

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Speaker 1: They didn't know where to go, but used to think.

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Speaker 1: These twenty priests they used some we don't know if

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Speaker 1: they were drunk or high or sleep deprived through what

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Speaker 1: was going on, but they used the their their own

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Speaker 1: um power from the gods to know where to go.

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Speaker 1: This is this is the way we have to understand it.

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Speaker 1: And they stopped up, and everyone in the outer um

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Speaker 1: parts of the temple or in the temple courtyard the

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Speaker 1: stunned and afraid because the oracle isn't moving, and the

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Speaker 1: oracle seems to not have a direction. And then all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, hot Scheps It's text tells us the

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Speaker 1: oracle gets up and is on the move, and it

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Speaker 1: goes right, and then it goes less, and it goes

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Speaker 1: here than it goes there, and then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: it points itself directly at hot Scheps as a girl,

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Speaker 1: as a priestess, is the God's wife of Almand in

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Speaker 1: the temple, and the oracle directs itself to her. She

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Speaker 1: throws herself to the ground in front of it, raises

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Speaker 1: her arms up in front of it, and says something

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Speaker 1: that came to oh, my father, Almandray, what would you

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Speaker 1: have me do? And the oracle then proceeds somehow to

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Speaker 1: communicate her, And we don't know how this happened, but

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Speaker 1: it proceeds to communicate to her that Egypt needs her,

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Speaker 1: that Almandray, the God needs her, that she is required

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Speaker 1: to move Egypt through this crisis of succession, through this crisis,

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Speaker 1: vacuum of power and tempts. It was always so canny

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Speaker 1: to use the religion that everyone believed in so fervently

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Speaker 1: to mark herself for powers. He never claims this power

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Speaker 1: as her own personal right. She's never outwardly ambitious for it.

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Speaker 1: In um in a bald way. She always cloaks each

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Speaker 1: of every power graph, every move she makes up that

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Speaker 1: ladder towards power, towards the kingship itself with religious ideology,

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Speaker 1: always saying I'm not doing it for myself. I'm only

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Speaker 1: doing this because the god omin Ray needs me to

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Speaker 1: do it. Pretty clever. Yeah, Yeah, it's an amazing story,

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Speaker 1: it really is. And this was generally accepted by the people,

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Speaker 1: right they said, okay, well, if this is the will

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Speaker 1: of the gods, then this is how it's going to be.

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Speaker 1: Or what was there any sort of horror or surprise

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Speaker 1: that this happened. You would think there would be some

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Speaker 1: sort of surprise at marking a female, especially your female,

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Speaker 1: so young, for so much power, But it doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: that there was any kind of pushback. There was shocked,

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Speaker 1: she tells us in and then later or there's a

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Speaker 1: later oracle that mark yours king and then she appeared

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Speaker 1: as king before her people, and she says that there's

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Speaker 1: stunned there weeping before me. They can't believe it, but

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Speaker 1: she puts it in the sense that it's a miracle.

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Speaker 1: But what we never see, and what what I don't

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Speaker 1: think we should expect to see from the ancient world,

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Speaker 1: is any sort of cynical disbelief in this oracle. And

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Speaker 1: think of politics and religion today. So many people use

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Speaker 1: religious ideology to support their political moves to the right

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Speaker 1: or the left or whatever. This shouldn't be something that

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Speaker 1: that surprises us. The ideology that works best to get

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Speaker 1: people politically on board is the ideology that people believe

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Speaker 1: in most so, and so it doesn't mean that that

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Speaker 1: you can't manipulate and use religion at the same time

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Speaker 1: that you fervently believe in it. There doesn't seem to

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Speaker 1: be any understanding that the oracle was somehow cynically manipulated.

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Speaker 1: Nobody seems to talk about it. It's not the way.

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Speaker 1: But I'm sure that hut chips that her priests knew

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Speaker 1: that she was the one that was going to be

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Speaker 1: much for power. I don't think this came as a

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Speaker 1: surprise to anyone. I think that it had been planned

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Speaker 1: out carefully and politically in advance beforehand, and then the

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Speaker 1: ideology was used to pay that path. At the same time,

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Speaker 1: I think they understood it as a god's choice as well.

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Speaker 1: It's it's a big difference between us and them, between

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Speaker 1: the modern world the ancient world that fervent belief in

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Speaker 1: the gods being all around you, pulling the strings, ruling everything.

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Speaker 1: But that was that certainly seems to be the way

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Speaker 1: the ancient people approached their their world. Well, it seems

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Speaker 1: like Hutus put a lot of thought into the way

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Speaker 1: that she was depicted uh in in temples and across

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Speaker 1: Egypt and remembered. So in what ways did she position

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Speaker 1: herself as masculine and as king rather than just being

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Speaker 1: feminine and queen? And why did she do this? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Chetsford's story is not only amazing in that she's the

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Speaker 1: only female king who rules for such an extensive period

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Speaker 1: of time, successfully leaving each it better than she found it,

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Speaker 1: but she's also not a rule breaker. She's a traditionalist.

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Speaker 1: She doesn't expect a patriarchal society to fit to her

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Speaker 1: feminine self. She knows she's an anomaly. She knows she's strange,

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Speaker 1: and so as her coking, And we can never forget

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Speaker 1: that she had a coking by her side throughout her

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Speaker 1: entire rule as regent and then as king. As he's

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Speaker 1: getting older, she has to match him. She takes precedence

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Speaker 1: of place before him. She has the primary spot and festivals,

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Speaker 1: presumably in the throne room with the higher diet. She's there,

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Speaker 1: always in the primary position. But this kid is getting older.

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Speaker 1: When she's crowned, he's nine years old. It's easy to

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Speaker 1: have precedence of place over a nine year old, but

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Speaker 1: a fourteen year old that's much more difficult. How do

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Speaker 1: you How do you take precedence of place when you're

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Speaker 1: an older woman next to a young and vibrant man.

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Speaker 1: How do you do that? And Hot checks the messages

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Speaker 1: that there's worries about. He tries new things, and we

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Speaker 1: can see that transition in her stackturing in her relief,

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Speaker 1: and she starts out, there's a there's a statue in

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Speaker 1: the met that shows her as feminine but masculine simultaneously.

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Speaker 1: It's an extraordinary piece made of an indurated kind of

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Speaker 1: marble like limestone, and she has this beautiful delicate, heart

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Speaker 1: shaped face, very feminine, very grassile body with narrow shoulders

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Speaker 1: and slender limbs. It's the body of a woman, and

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Speaker 1: yet she's shown topless. She's shown wearing not a shirt

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Speaker 1: but a naked bare chest of a man. But it's

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Speaker 1: clearly a woman's upper body, and in fact, they even

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Speaker 1: show her with breasts but no nipples, as you would

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Speaker 1: expect if you were showing a naked female upper body.

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Speaker 1: So she's there is masculine and feminine simultaneously, and she's

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Speaker 1: obviously not satisfied with with this visage, with this image

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Speaker 1: of herself, because she then moves on to a fully

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Speaker 1: masculinized imagery where her body no longer has that grassile form,

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Speaker 1: where she shows herself with with a buff body, pectoral

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Speaker 1: muscles and biceps and all of that which she obviously

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00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,359
Speaker 1: didn't have in real life. That she feels she needs

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Speaker 1: to show this in her relief and in her statutory

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Speaker 1: to match the king that's growing up next to her.

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Speaker 1: So she's she's got to experiment. She knows that she

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Speaker 1: has to change her body in the way she depicts

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00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,920
Speaker 1: herself to match this coking and to sit patriarchal kingship

402
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 1: models in in their purest form, because the Egyptians believed

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Speaker 1: that that monarch needed to be masculine, that that masculine

404
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: rebirth was was a necessary part of the king's power.

405
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Speaker 1: So she in some way religiously magically needs to inhabit

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Speaker 1: that masculine self, even with her feminine her feminine body.

407
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Speaker 1: And now back to the show, so hat ships that

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00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,360
Speaker 1: was an exceptional rule. I mean, you mentioned that she

409
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Speaker 1: left Egypt better than she started with it, and she

410
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Speaker 1: asked all these incredible accomplishments. But it seems like all

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Speaker 1: we learned about as students in the classroom are King

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Speaker 1: tut and we know who Cleopatra is, and yet not her.

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Speaker 1: Why is that? Why? Why has her history sort of

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Speaker 1: sort of been erased in a way from our popular

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00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 1: understanding of Egyptian history. I've had to think about this

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Speaker 1: a lot. This is this is really the crux of

417
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Speaker 1: her story for me, because as I'm trying to resurrect her,

418
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,199
Speaker 1: trying to get people to pronounce her name correctly, and

419
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 1: people like, wait, had she what? How does it work?

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Speaker 1: It's extraordinary to me that this woman who did it

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Speaker 1: all right, who was the most and I'd like to

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Speaker 1: use this for badass woman of the ancient world who

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Speaker 1: ruled for the longest, ruled the most successfully, is the

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Speaker 1: one that we've forgotten. And and here here's where we're

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Speaker 1: going to go with this. So let's say we go

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Speaker 1: out to a bus stop and we and we just

427
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,920
Speaker 1: talked to the every man or every woman to say, hey,

428
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 1: have you ever heard of somebody named Jezebel? And here

429
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,439
Speaker 1: you will say, oh, yeah, I've heard of Jezebel. Good

430
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: or bad, very bad, very bad. And you may not

431
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: know the whole story that that. You know, she was

432
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: a Phoenician princess married off to a king in the

433
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: Levant and was um upset a bunch of Yahwa priests

434
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: for worshiping many gods and was thrown out of a

435
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 1: window and eating my dogs. You may not know all

436
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 1: of that, um, but you know she's bad. She did

437
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: something wrong. You may say, okay, how that Cleopatra person

438
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,640
Speaker 1: at the bus stops? You know Cleopatra? Indeed, I do

439
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 1: good story or bad story is very bad, interested in glamour,

440
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: interested in parties, and ended up killing ourselves. And these

441
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 1: things are known in popular culture by normal people. But

442
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 1: had chepsoot. People have no idea who this woman is.

443
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: They can't even pronounce her name, They have no understanding

444
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: of what she did. And I think human culture in

445
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 1: general loves to tell stories, replicate stories, retell stories about

446
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: female failure, about women who did it all wrong, as

447
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 1: cautionary tales, as ways to know what happens when when

448
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 1: crisis and female leaders to coincide the crisis. That that

449
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: when females rule, they bring on crisis. I'm here to

450
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: tell you the historian that females generally are only allowed

451
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: into leadership when there's crisis. That's the way they get

452
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: into power in the first place. So Chips that, as

453
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 1: as I always say, left Eagy better than she found it,

454
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: did everything right, and that was her ultimate undoing. And

455
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 1: that's the irony of the whole thing. She she created

456
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: a perfect package for the king's after her to take

457
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: credit for what she herself had done. She did it

458
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 1: all so traditionally, even depicting herself as a masculine entity,

459
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: that in many cases all they had to do was

460
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: erased her name and put in a different name and

461
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 1: take credit for all of her vast achievements and buildings

462
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 1: and and just all that she did. She did it

463
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 1: too perfectly in a way. It was that much more abstracted,

464
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: that much more um uh normal, so that a male

465
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: king could just say, yeah, I did this, erase her

466
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: name very shortly after her reign was over. Put all

467
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: of the other names in their place, in her place,

468
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: and unless we've forgotten her. So the women who were

469
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 1: the most successful, or those that we don't tell stories about,

470
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 1: and the women that were the biggest failures, Shakespeare writes

471
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 1: plays about them. Mhm. It's really interesting. That's a really

472
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: interesting division to draw and troubling one at the same time. Though, Yeah, indeed,

473
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,640
Speaker 1: you know it's it's funny. I was. I did my first,

474
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: one of my very first discussions about hot chess to

475
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 1: a group of female CEOs and power brokers in Los Angeles.

476
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: Small group. It was. It was a lunchtime lecture and

477
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: I'm just informally talking through this and it was in

478
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 1: that room, in that moment with all of these female

479
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: power brokers, but I understood that success was something that

480
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: indeed could threaten a woman with a lawsome legacy, with

481
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: somebody else trying to take the credit for it, that

482
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: that happens more often than than we would expect. Or

483
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: like to think of in a patriarchal society, and that

484
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 1: right there, I think is the crux of hot chests.

485
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: But story, um, well, that leads to another question though,

486
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 1: between kind of the parallels a tween hat chip set

487
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: the women around her and women in powerful positions today,

488
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: because as you're telling this story, it's bringing similar bells

489
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: in my mind of things that we have similar patterns

490
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 1: of women in power, whether that's political power or even

491
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: power in career in career context as well. Yeah, I

492
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: teach a class that you see called Women in Power

493
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: in the Ancient World. In the first two weeks we

494
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: go through a discussion of how much power women have today.

495
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 1: I always try to keep ancient history as topical and

496
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: useful and applicable to the modern world as possible. To

497
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: the humans are humans. We have the same general systems, uh,

498
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 1: same patriarchal system for certain So how can we use

499
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: these women from the ancient world as role models, as

500
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: cautionary tales, as whatever. How can they help us out today?

501
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: And you know, it's it's an interesting thing when you

502
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: when you look at patriarchal society as a whole, it

503
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 1: does systematically bar women from power and I start my

504
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: own talk about hot chips, said I put, I put

505
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 1: hot cheps that in context. I start my own lecture

506
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: with four slides where I show how today women have

507
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: so little political power. There are very few leaders of state,

508
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: prime ministers, are presidents around the world who are female.

509
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: Why are we so hostile to that? Why are we

510
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: so ambilance of that power. There's even fewer female CEOs

511
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 1: and leaders of fortune companies who are women. In the

512
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 1: United States, it's four percent candidates, just over six percent

513
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: female CEOs. It's nothing. When we allow the free market

514
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 1: and the human organisms that pick who they want to

515
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: have leadership over money, we do not choose women. It's extraordinary. Um.

516
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: The military is improving because you have a very top

517
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: down hierarchical um system in the United States, so you

518
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: do see female officers except for the Marines, but in

519
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: the Air Force, the Army, and the Navy at and rising.

520
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: So that's improving. Ideological power and females there's just none.

521
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: Judaeo Christian Islamic traditions do not suffer females and leadership positions.

522
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: So all this is applicable, all of this is useful

523
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: and in my class, women in power in the ancient world.

524
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: We look at cognitive differences between males and females. Brain differences, um,

525
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: how how a female thinks or forgives versus a man,

526
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: how a female might think of her survival versus a man.

527
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: All of these things I think are important to bring

528
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: out into the open and understand so that they can

529
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: be transcended. For example, did you know that women hold

530
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: grudges longer than men do, so somebody cuts you off

531
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: or betrays you politically, that a woman is more likely

532
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: to hold the grudge and cut that person off than

533
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: a man. And that if we learn as females not

534
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: to burn our bridges to get over those those impasses,

535
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: we would be better political leaders. But we have other

536
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: we have strengths as well. For example, micro loan lenders

537
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: don't like to give micro loans to men. They like

538
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: to give them to women because the woman will buy

539
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: the cow, make the cheese, make the business, and take

540
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: care of her family. Too many micro loans that go

541
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: to men are brought into a bar and exchange for

542
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: political capital for drinks at the bar. And you know

543
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: that and men often think that way because our brains

544
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: work in different ways. I like to look at the

545
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: biological sources of it all. I like to think about

546
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: how a female hunter gather you know, the human origins

547
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: or sources for how we might think and feel. Her

548
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: survival depended on her connection with her sister, with her mother,

549
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: with her close family. A man's hunter gathers survival depends

550
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: on finding game far away, making connections with other troops

551
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: far away, warfare with troops far away. These are things

552
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: that he depends on. So he is automatically going to

553
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: be more politically inclined genetically, perhaps the cognitively than a

554
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: female who is going to be genetically cognitively more interested

555
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: in looking towards her inner circle. All of those things

556
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: translate into how we perceive political power. So when and

557
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: I put a slide up in my lecture where I

558
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: put up an image of Maggie Fast or Hillary Clinton, Condoleeza, Rice,

559
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: Angela Merkel, all of these women inaction at a podium talking,

560
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: and I put up a male slide next to it,

561
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: and the females look angry, and the males lead early

562
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: and strong, and we have these visceral reactions, these emotional

563
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: reactions misperceptions even or just perceptions of what power is

564
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: for males or females without even thinking about it. And

565
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: a lot of the time we think females can't have power.

566
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: They're too hormonal, they're too they're too more curial, they

567
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: won't be able to have a consistent leadership style. We

568
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: need the men. We we can't trust this, we're hostile

569
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,479
Speaker 1: towards it, or ambivalent to, or more intellectually inclined or

570
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,719
Speaker 1: or open about female power. But for me, just like

571
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: a baby might be if it's a white baby more

572
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: inclined and attracted to white faces, or a black baby

573
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: might be more interested in cognitively looking at black faces

574
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: like itself, that doesn't mean that can't be transcended later

575
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: in life. So in the same token of female might

576
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: actually be misperceived as being self interested, as being um selfish,

577
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: or be seen as angry or hormonal. But if we're

578
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: open about how we feel about female leadership, then these

579
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: things can be transcendent. So I like to look at

580
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,239
Speaker 1: the biological roots of it, at the sources of our

581
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: distrust to female power, and it's a very source of

582
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: it all is the fact that women can have babies

583
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: and men cannot. And I always go back to the

584
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: story of Marissa Meyer CEO of DA Who, and everyone

585
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: was was freaking out that she had that baby. How

586
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: can she possibly be CEO of Yah who would have

587
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: a baby simultaneously, your feminist pundits on TV saying, of

588
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: course she can have a baby and b CEO of

589
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: yah Who simultaneously. When that story came out, I was

590
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: at home on leave breastfeeding my child and I have

591
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: five months off, and I remember holding my kid, looking

592
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: at the TV and saying, there's no way she can

593
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: do it. She can't do it because I had little

594
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: support and help in that moment. I was going to

595
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,959
Speaker 1: postpartum depression and anxiety, and these are the things that

596
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: women have to deal with. We need help to transcend

597
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: our own bodies to maintain power. I needed u c

598
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: l A my university, to give me time off to

599
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: go a little bit crazy, go hormonal, come back to

600
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: the real world, put my kid to into dake your

601
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: system so that I could be that that powerful female.

602
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: If we don't have governmental systems societal help, we cannot

603
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: transcend our bodies, have children and have it. All. These

604
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: things are all very interesting to me. I don't like

605
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: to deny the biological and say of course you can

606
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: do it all. I like to bring all of that

607
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: in and say, okay, now what are we going to

608
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: do next? It with a long issue, Right. That gave

609
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: you some sort of an insight into how I think

610
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: about all of this absolutely well, and it reminded me

611
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: of one thing that jumped out to me at the

612
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: end of the book and the acknowledgments. You're talking about

613
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: that period of time when you just had your son

614
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: and the book comes along and you're dealing with writing

615
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: a book while grappling with this new thing that is

616
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: childcare and your life. But you you right. I could

617
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: not have understood had shep sat before motherhood happened. And

618
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: I was just wondering if you could, especially because the

619
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: podcast is called stuff Mom Never Told You. Um, I

620
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: was just wondering if you could. I sort of explained

621
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: that in a little bit A little bit. I mean,

622
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 1: I know that you already did someone in the previous answer,

623
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: but um, that was something that really jumped out to me.

624
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: I have never felt more isolated and more confused and

625
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: in a darker place than than when I had my

626
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: son through that postpartum year. It was a very tough

627
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: year and I actually through a car accident and had

628
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: to be your head trauma and almost died. And that

629
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: year was worse arguably than than that that year post

630
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 1: head trauma. It was tough because everything that you thought

631
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: as a that I thought as a woman that I

632
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: could have was made intensely vulnerable in a way that

633
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: that I'd never experienced before that that child. Having that

634
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: child stripped me bear in a way that that i've

635
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: I still am grappling with and thinking about, because you're

636
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: never more vulnerable and you're never more of a slave

637
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: to your own body. And I think that in Western culture,

638
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 1: not only do we like to deny death and pretend

639
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: that it will never happen. You know, we like to

640
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 1: live forever on plastic surgery. And people die in hospitals

641
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: outside of our site. They don't die in front of

642
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: our own eyes. In the same way, you know, women today,

643
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,919
Speaker 1: especially women who want power and want careers, put off

644
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:34,919
Speaker 1: having a child. I put off having a child until

645
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: I was thirty eight years old. And you think, yeah,

646
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be a slight of this. I'm

647
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: gonna do it right. I'm gonna be fine. You know,

648
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 1: when I had my kid, I was the first natural

649
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: breach birth at US aliens sixteen years and fifty people

650
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: watch my birth. It was a rock star birth. It was,

651
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: and you know, you have that that joyous, exuberant moment,

652
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: you know, a badass kind of moment you think you

653
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: could do anything. And then the long slow water torture

654
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: of sleep deprivation and breast feeding which was very hard

655
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,439
Speaker 1: for me, um and postpartum hormonal problems which was very

656
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 1: hard for me, hits, and then it's a different thing.

657
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: It's something that you can't really surmount. And for the

658
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,720
Speaker 1: ancient people that was unavoidable. They couldn't put off child bearing.

659
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 1: They this was what every royal woman was expected to do.

660
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: She was expected to be a wound, to be a

661
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: baby producer. That was her job first and foremost. And yes,

662
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: the royal woman could give the child off to a

663
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: wet nurse. You know, in many ways they had their

664
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: daycare and everything figured out as well. She was a

665
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 1: working woman as well, and she had support. She probably

666
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: had a lot more support than I did giving birth

667
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 1: in that in that year after the baby, But to

668
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: understand the obstacles to female power, I think I had

669
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: to go through that that childbirth experience and understand that

670
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: the body, the female body, is really the ground zero,

671
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 1: the biggest obstacle for why female powers are attainable. And

672
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: if we don't have social support systems in place, you'll

673
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: you'll never be able to get it. I've got to

674
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: tell you, your answers make me want to like run

675
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 1: up down the street high fiving people love. I've loved

676
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: your responses, um and and it touches on so many

677
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: different things that we recurring themes in the podcast, recurring

678
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 1: themes that we hear from, especially our our women listeners,

679
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 1: especially mothers who have careers and are balancing all this

680
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: stuff as well. So, I mean, yeah, it's it's you know,

681
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: we did a whole series on lean in and women

682
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 1: in the workplace and all of that stuff, and so,

683
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it is kind of fascinating to hear those

684
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: same ideas applied to ancient women who really, I mean,

685
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: the more things change, the more they stay the same.

686
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 1: It sounds people are people are people. The biggest difference though,

687
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:00,919
Speaker 1: is life expectancy. So get to live till over eighty

688
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 1: or ninety. They got to live till they were forty.

689
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: Dam they had to bury so many children. We have

690
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: no notion of this if a baby dies, now it's

691
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: a weird and strange thing that people are ashamed of

692
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: and can't talk about. In the ancient world, we would

693
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: have buried half of our children under our mud group floor,

694
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 1: and little cot would have been a normal thing. Yeah right,

695
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: That's that's some severe trauma. That's something that we can't

696
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 1: even we can't even fathom, right, Well, I mean I

697
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: got the impression because of issues like that that people

698
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: in Egypt and in the ancient world in general face

699
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: that they did have to pack in so much stuff

700
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: into their brief lives, and you know, hat chups. It

701
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: was certainly no was certainly no different. I mean, if anything,

702
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: she packed thirty times more into her life. And so

703
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: that kind of leads me to our next question, which

704
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: is her legacy and what you consider her legacy to

705
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: be sort of in general in Egypt and in our history,

706
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: but also in terms of the perception of women lers

707
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: what affected her legacy have yeah and had chips? Is

708
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 1: that extraordinary woman who who did it all right and

709
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: got forgotten. That's the point that that intrigues me the most,

710
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: upsets me the most, that I that I kind of

711
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: mess with a lot, because I don't think it's it's

712
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,919
Speaker 1: that unusual today. It's the woman who knows she can't

713
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: change the patriarchy. I said, try to tries to fit it,

714
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: and that's you know, that's the way she has to

715
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: work it. If a woman wants it all today to

716
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,800
Speaker 1: have the baby, to have the job, she can't change

717
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: her body, and she can't change the economy of her womb.

718
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: She can't change the fact that it takes that long

719
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,399
Speaker 1: to jest date to breastfeed. Those things are unavoidable. And

720
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 1: you know, arguably women have to spend more time with

721
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 1: their children with the upbringing, with the breastfeeding than they

722
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: didn't when I when my mother was was bringing up

723
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: her kids when bottle feeding was normal. I mean, in

724
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: some ways that made things easier, in some ways not um,

725
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:07,240
Speaker 1: there are great expectations on women having children with careers

726
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 1: to do the motherhood all in completely and totally with

727
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: you know, two years of breasting, which I did, and

728
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: you know, baby carrying and which I did, and family

729
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 1: bed which I did, and all all of those things

730
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: so intense, so intensely, and still do the career and

731
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,760
Speaker 1: the and the powerful side so intently and not lose

732
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: any of it on either side, it's impossible, it's impossible

733
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 1: to do. Something will be lost. And and yet we

734
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: as women gain something as as we go through and

735
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: we've and we learned. We think differently, we rule differently,

736
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: we um, we we behave differently when we have power.

737
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 1: And now that we're finally allowed to have power, people

738
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: see females I think as more of an asset um

739
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: as and they're less um misperceived, and there's less hostility

740
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: towards female power. I think Hillary is going to have

741
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: quite a run um in the next couple of years,

742
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: and well, and we'll see, I think in the next

743
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: eight years, a discussion of misogyny in the way that

744
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 1: the Barack Obama administration has been a discussion of racism

745
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: and how people perceive or misperceive the agenda of a

746
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 1: certain person because of their color, their skin, how they

747
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: grew up, their gender. Um these things are being discussed

748
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: and talked about, very much like gay marriage and what

749
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: it means to be gay and what it means to

750
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 1: have that identity. All of these things are being openly

751
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: discussed and talked about and very much transcended. Um so

752
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 1: hot chepso I mean, she just she she helps us

753
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 1: do that because of her success and because of her power.

754
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: And if I can help to resurrect her and get

755
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 1: people to be able to pronounce her name, then that

756
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 1: then I can, you know, I can somehow understand what

757
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: it means to try to have it all because that's

758
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 1: what we want, and that's what she did, and and

759
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 1: she got a raised for it. You know, her name

760
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,919
Speaker 1: and names were raised, her images were raised. Um. How

761
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 1: often does that happen today? I think we need to

762
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: keep our eyes open. If Hillary does become president, will

763
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 1: what will be her legacy? D? How will that work?

764
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 1: What's the legacy of Maggie Thatcher? What's the legacy of

765
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 1: of an angela mercle? How does how does that work? Um?

766
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: I think legacy is super important because if you look

767
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: at women in the ancient world, they never have a

768
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: genetic legacy. They never do. They don't get to become

769
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 1: king on their own and their own right, get a

770
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: boyfriend or a lover and have a child that's going

771
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: to follow them onto the throne. It always ends up

772
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 1: with some other family, some other dynasty, some other man

773
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 1: taking over after them. They're just placeholders. They're just stop gaps.

774
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 1: They're just convenient things to have in the moment. How

775
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 1: can we women create a legacy didn't happen in the

776
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: ancient world? How can we transcend it into it now?

777
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: It's an interesting question and a perfect question, I think

778
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: to leave this conversation at set all the questions that

779
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: we had for you, Is there anything though about at

780
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: Chefs that women in power your work, um, that you'd

781
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,839
Speaker 1: like to tell us about that we didn't ask you? Um?

782
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: What what's next on your plate? Yeah? I think you

783
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 1: guys hit everything that was great, UM, So I don't

784
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 1: I don't think I need to add anything like that.

785
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: And what's next for me? Um? I am going to

786
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 1: move on to a book about political ideologies, how people

787
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 1: link religion and and power. And I'm going to write

788
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: a book about akanat In, a biography about Actin as

789
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 1: the first religious fanatic in the world. And I think

790
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: religious extremism is certainly something that we talk to talk

791
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: about every day all the time on the news. And

792
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: I'm going to do what I did with Hot Chefs

793
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: that go jump dive back into the past and try

794
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: to see when it happened first time, how it happened,

795
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: why it happened and see if I can make that

796
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,439
Speaker 1: ancient story as applicable as possible to what we're dealing

797
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: with today. We'll definitely be looking forward to that and

798
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 1: might have to ask you to come back on the

799
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: podcast when that about it not a problem. You have

800
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 1: to wait a couple of years. It'll take me a while,

801
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 1: but I'm on it. I'm on it. We'll just pencil

802
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: us in for a couple of years from now. Also,

803
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 1: if you want to tell our listeners where they can

804
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: learn more both about you and your book, that'd be great. Yeah. Sure.

805
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: So I'm out there in the world digitally. I try

806
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,800
Speaker 1: to keep a good present. So my Facebook pages almost

807
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 1: fifty followers and it's karacoone Egyptologists starts the k K

808
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: R A C O N E Y. And I've got

809
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 1: a new web page up with all my articles posted

810
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: and uh academic work. I actually my academic work is UM.

811
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 1: I'm a coffin specialist with a little strange but essentially

812
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,240
Speaker 1: I look at at social competition and how people compete

813
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: with one another using junery arts kind of like UM,

814
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 1: like we use weddings, you know where if you see

815
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 1: the bride walking down the aisleand address. You know pretty

816
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 1: much what the class she belongs to, maybe with her

817
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: ethnicity is what she's trying to prove. I do the

818
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 1: same thing with confin. So a lot of that work

819
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,839
Speaker 1: is is on my website. And yeah, my my book

820
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 1: for The Woman Who Would Be King is is available

821
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: in bookstores everywhere. And uh, thank you guys so much

822
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: for having me on the show. Well, thanks for taking

823
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:22,760
Speaker 1: the time to talk to us. This has been really

824
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: really fascinating, awesome, so huge thanks to Dr Cooney for

825
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: taking the time to talk to us about hat ships,

826
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 1: set and women in power. I know that Caroline and

827
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 1: I walked away from that conversation still talking about so

828
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 1: much of what Cooney had to say and how hat

829
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: chips that story applies to women in power and even

830
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 1: just women like us who are dealing with day to

831
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 1: day careers as well. So I don't know about you, Caroline,

832
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 1: but that was a really inspiring interview for for us

833
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 1: to do. Yeah. Absolutely, I thought she hit on so

834
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 1: many incredible points, not only about this amazing figure in history,

835
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: but also just about womanhood and what her own path

836
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 1: has been like. Yeah, So to learn more about Dr

837
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: Cooney and to check out her book The Woman Who

838
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 1: Would Be King. You can head over to Kara Cooney.

839
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: That's see oo n e y dot com. And now

840
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: I want to hear from you. What are your thoughts

841
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 1: on hat chepst, women in power? What we can learn

842
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: today from ancient women. Mom Stuff at how Stuff Works

843
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: dot com is our email address. If you want to

844
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: tweet us, you can do that at mom Stuff podcast

845
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 1: or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of

846
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 1: messages to share with you when we come right back

847
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 1: from a quick break. And now back to the show. Well,

848
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: I gotta let her hear from Danielle about our women

849
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 1: in the Construction Industry podcast. She writes, I was excited

850
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 1: to see the title of the podcast because I have

851
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 1: more than a few stories on the subject. First of all,

852
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 1: my mom was the first female to work at a

853
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: construction site in Ontario. She was definitely hazed and couldn't

854
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 1: use the outhouse for fear that the men on her

855
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: crew would pick it up with a forklift while she

856
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: was in it, which apparently happened regularly. She did say

857
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 1: that after some time, the men she worked with became

858
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 1: close like big brothers and looked out for her. As

859
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: for myself, I've worked in the arboriculture and forestry industries

860
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: for the past seven years or so. I found school

861
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: to be an amazing experience and never felt different from

862
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: the men. I built that My teachers encouraged me and

863
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:43,760
Speaker 1: motivated me to work just as hard as the boys,

864
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 1: and they never singled me out based on my gender.

865
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,760
Speaker 1: Once I started working in the field, however, I encountered

866
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: men who seemed to loathe me just for being female,

867
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 1: and others who are completely in awe that I would

868
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: do a physical job. I'm more skilled than some of

869
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:58,760
Speaker 1: the men I've worked with when it comes to handling

870
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: a chainsaw, and I believe that having to teach myself

871
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: the technique has helped. I agree with your points that

872
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 1: women don't get the mentorship that men do, and so

873
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: we have to learn the hard way. I've heard some

874
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,760
Speaker 1: of the most ridiculous and disgusting things from co workers,

875
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 1: and have also worked with some that seem to think

876
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: I was invisible. I've also noticed that if I shortened

877
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,800
Speaker 1: my name Danielle to Danny on resumes, I get way

878
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 1: more interviews and callbacks, which I assume is because the

879
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: company believes I'm male. Thankfully, most of my job positions

880
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: have put me on small cruise, so eventually the men

881
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 1: and I become close and in some cases good friends.

882
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 1: I always joke with my female friends that when I

883
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 1: start to work with new people, I'm only seen as

884
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: a woman for two weeks and then I become a man.

885
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: At that point, no one helps me carry anything or

886
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 1: does any favors. They get that I'm working just as

887
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: hard as them, and sometimes, because of my small size,

888
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 1: even harder. I think that even at the higher corporate

889
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: level I find myself now, women don't get the same pay,

890
00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: respect or job opportunities as men. However, I'm up domestic

891
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,399
Speaker 1: that this next generation of female workers, like the six

892
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 1: year old mentioned in your podcast my niece, will continue

893
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 1: to break down the gender barriers in the male dominated jobs.

894
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 1: So thanks Danielle, and I have a letter here from Mary.

895
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:18,359
Speaker 1: She says, first off, thank you, thank you, thank you.

896
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: That podcast you all did over women in Construction was fantastic.

897
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 1: It was ruthless, brutally truthful, and enlightening. I'm emailing you

898
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: because I'm a current senior pursuing a degree in construction management.

899
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: I was previously an engineering major, but I changed because

900
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 1: construction is the perfect blend of hands on organization and creativity. Essentially,

901
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 1: I see it as architecture slash engineering slash contractor combined

902
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: into one. I haven't had any firsthand experience on a

903
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: job site yet, but I will say I am one

904
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 1: of two girls in the entire program at my school.

905
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: All the rest are gents. It was the same in

906
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 1: my engineering classes, and it was the same in my

907
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: technical classes in high school. Hardly any girls, And to

908
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: be honest, I've never known why there is more opportunity

909
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 1: in this field than practically any other. Companies are fighting

910
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: to hire women because there is such a low percentage

911
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: of us applying. When I graduate, I can be an estimator.

912
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: B I am specialist, scheduler, safety coordinator, project engineer, project manager.

913
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 1: The list goes on and on. Have I experienced prejudice?

914
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 1: It depends on how you see it or take it.

915
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: If someone says something inappropriate, I often fire something witty

916
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 1: right back. Women have to be ready to face these

917
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: kinds of situations. It's important not to take it super personally.

918
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 1: Harassment rarely happens in school. My classmates respect me and

919
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 1: they learn to because I work my butt off and

920
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: I complete really quality work. As a woman, I'm more

921
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 1: motivated to do my best to represent the gender and

922
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 1: gain a higher level of respect. It's sad, but the

923
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: reality is some of the guys just don't know how

924
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,320
Speaker 1: to react with a strong, tomboy woman who likes to

925
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 1: play in the dirt, drive nails with a hammer, and

926
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 1: wants to kick butt in this industry. From what I've seen,

927
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: the guys who do understand all of this are the

928
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 1: ones in management and supervisory positions. The construction management field

929
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 1: seems to be way less brutal than the trades field.

930
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 1: From a woman's standpoint, I'm thankful for women like Nicole

931
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: Curtis on HDTVs. Rehab Addict, who are true trailblazers. She's

932
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 1: making the field more open to women, and I hope

933
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: to do the same someday. Dude, I love Nicole Curtis

934
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: and Rehab Addict. My boyfriends sit around the house and

935
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 1: watch it all the time, so she I agree. She

936
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:22,719
Speaker 1: is a good figure and I'm glad you're getting out

937
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: there and do what you love to do. Thanks for

938
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 1: writing in, and thanks to everybody who's written into us.

939
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 1: We've gotten so many letters in particular about women in construction,

940
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 1: so keep all of them coming. Mom Stuff at how

941
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:38,879
Speaker 1: Subwork dot com is our email address and for links

942
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 1: to all of our social media, as well as all

943
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 1: of our videos and blogs, including Seven Queens Who Fought

944
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: to Rule. If you're really into learning more about powerful

945
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 1: women of your head, on over to stuff Mom Never

946
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:58,760
Speaker 1: Told You dot com for more on this and thousands

947
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 1: of other topics. Doesn't how Stuff Works dot com