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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: You cannot erase our history.

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Speaker 1: Yes it is flawed, Yes it is imperfect.

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Speaker 3: Philadelphia's mayor praised a federal judge's ruling ordering the Trump

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Speaker 3: administration to restore the displays with references to slavery at

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Speaker 3: the President's House site in the city. Last month, National

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Speaker 3: Park Service workers pried off thirty four panels about the

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Speaker 3: nine people enslaved by George Washington at his former home.

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Speaker 3: It's part of the Trump administration's drive to remove information

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Speaker 3: related to racism and slavery, sexism and LGBTQ rights, Indigenous communities,

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Speaker 3: and climate change from the nation's museums, parks, and landmarks. Well,

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Speaker 3: the National Parks Conservation Association and five other nonprofits are

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Speaker 3: suing the administration to stop it quote sustained campaign to

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Speaker 3: erase history and undermine science from national sites. My guest

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Speaker 3: is Alan Spears, Senior director of Cultural Resources for the

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Speaker 3: National Parks Conservation Association. Alan, will you give us the

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Speaker 3: timeline of the Trump administration's effort to remove certain information

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Speaker 3: about slavery, sexism, climate change, etc. From national monuments?

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Speaker 4: So we're in February of twenty twenty six, right now.

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Speaker 4: And this process got started shortly after President Trump was

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Speaker 4: reelected and re entered the White House, and in March

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Speaker 4: of twenty twenty five, he issued an Executive Order to

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Speaker 4: Restore Truth and Sanity to American History, and that was

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Speaker 4: followed two months later by a Secretarial Order, so thirty

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Speaker 4: four to thirty one, issued by Secretary Doug Bergham, Secretary

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Speaker 4: of the Interior, that essentially operationalized the President's Executive Order

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Speaker 4: for all of the agency in the Interior Department, including

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Speaker 4: the National Park Service, and so a quick review of

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Speaker 4: that history had QR codes placed in national parks so

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Speaker 4: that visitors could tattle on National Park Service employees if

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Speaker 4: they found that the interpretation of the site was a

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Speaker 4: little bit too left leaning or in their view, denigrated Americans.

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Speaker 4: And that was followed by an order for National Park

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Speaker 4: Service staff to assess everything in their interpretive inventories, whether

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Speaker 4: it was related to race or gender, or climate science,

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Speaker 4: anything that might run a foul of the Secretarial Order

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Speaker 4: or the President's Executive Order. They were required to put

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Speaker 4: that on a list and submit that list to the

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Speaker 4: Interior Department, and those lists were filled out and then

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Speaker 4: submitted over the course of the end of the summer

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Speaker 4: of twenty twenty five, and then in the fall of

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty five, we kind of went into a hiatus

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Speaker 4: where we heard some things were being removed, other things

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Speaker 4: weren't being touched, people were considering what was on the list.

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Speaker 4: And then we got started with a bang in January

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Speaker 4: when we saw the National Park Service take down the

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Speaker 4: displays at the President's House at Independence National Historical Park

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Speaker 4: in Philadelphia. And we have also seen other signs that

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Speaker 4: were taken down, a sign on sea level rise at

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Speaker 4: Fort Sumter, signs about climate change at Acadian National Park,

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Speaker 4: a couple of films videos at Lowell National Historical Park

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Speaker 4: in Massachusetts that talked about the pollution of the industrial

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Speaker 4: era and the challenging work environment for some of those

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Speaker 4: young women girls who were working in the mills and

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Speaker 4: Lowell during the Industrial Revolution in this country. And we've

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Speaker 4: seen signs about Native history and culture that have been

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Speaker 4: removed from the Grand Canyon, and we're hearing stories anecdotal

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Speaker 4: evidence of the fact that there is a large list

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Speaker 4: of sites out there, many of whom have commemorative or

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Speaker 4: interpretive materials that are related to the African American experience,

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Speaker 4: either slavery or civil rights that are on somebody's list.

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Speaker 4: And we may yet see additional operations coming from the

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Speaker 4: Trump administration, from the Secretary of the Interior, from the

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Speaker 4: National Park Service to remove or erase, or sensor or

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Speaker 4: sanitize elements of our shared national narrative as it is

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Speaker 4: interpreted by our National Park Service.

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Speaker 3: Is it any reference to slavery, LGBDQ writs, climate change, etc.

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Speaker 3: How are they deciding what's objectionable? Are there any parameters?

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Speaker 4: Oh, that's a great question. There is no transparency in

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Speaker 4: this process, and so, as an advocacy organization, the National

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Speaker 4: Parks Conservation Association is engaged in the game of whack

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Speaker 4: a mole where we've got something happening at the Independence

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Speaker 4: Park in one week, and then something happening at the

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Speaker 4: medgrin Early Evers Home potentially the next week, and so

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Speaker 4: it goes. So there is no transparency, There doesn't seem

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Speaker 4: to be any process. And sometimes we've got directives coming

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Speaker 4: down from above get rid of this, or we've got

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Speaker 4: people in National Parks who themselves are trying not to

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Speaker 4: get in any kind of trouble thinking all right, maybe

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Speaker 4: we ought to take that down or that program that

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Speaker 4: we were going to have on enslave people in the

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Speaker 4: underground railroad. Maybe let's postpone that. But the challenge right

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Speaker 4: now is we don't have a clear sense of exactly

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Speaker 4: what's happening, So it makes it really difficult to react

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Speaker 4: to that. What I can tell you is based on

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Speaker 4: your question, we know now that the word transgender has

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Speaker 4: been scrubbed from National Park Service interpretation, and we know

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Speaker 4: that it's been scrubbed from the interpretive arrays at the

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Speaker 4: Stonewall Inn in Lower Manhattan that was the site of

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Speaker 4: the LGBTQ Uprising in the summer of nineteen sixty nine

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Speaker 4: that launched the modern LGBTQ civil rights and human rights era.

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Speaker 4: And that protest, that uprising was led by transgender activists,

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Speaker 4: and so they have been excised from the history of

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Speaker 4: an event that they started and helped to organize and lead.

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Speaker 4: And we are seeing also at the President's House and

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Speaker 4: other places. It seems as if there are some folks

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Speaker 4: in the administration who believe that restoring truth and sanity

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Speaker 4: actually means getting rid of any references to anything related

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Speaker 4: to race, or gender or sexual orientation, labor class, women's rights,

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Speaker 4: or climate science that makes some people feel uncomfortable. And

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Speaker 4: so the idea is you take those things out of

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Speaker 4: the interpretive array and you can go and have a

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Speaker 4: fine time at any national park that you want to visit,

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Speaker 4: and you will never have to learn anything or think

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Speaker 4: critically about any issue, because we are just going to

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Speaker 4: look at the unfiltered, unalloid progress of this country from

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Speaker 4: start until the current time right now, when it's been

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Speaker 4: nothing but progress, progress, progress. And I would just round

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Speaker 4: out those comments by saying, this is an amazing country.

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Speaker 4: We have a broad and diverse history. It's complex. I

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Speaker 4: think the complexities are the things that make it interesting.

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Speaker 4: We have joined with allies to defeat fascism, we have

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Speaker 4: brought inspiration political, scientific, cultural to all parts of the globe.

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Speaker 4: We've cured dread disease. And there are times when we

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Speaker 4: have failed to live up to the better angels of

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Speaker 4: our nature. That's us too, And so when it comes

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Speaker 4: to national parks and historic interpretation, we want the full

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Speaker 4: story to be told in our national parks because we

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Speaker 4: can handle the truth, and we've got to have that truth.

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Speaker 3: And what are you hoping to accomp with your lawsuit.

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Speaker 4: The aim of our lawsuit is to just put a

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Speaker 4: stop to history erasure and signage removal. Let's stop it,

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Speaker 4: and then let's see if we can't through other means,

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Speaker 4: perhaps even legal means, reverse that trend and then repair

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Speaker 4: what's been lost. So that's the purpose of the lawsuit.

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Speaker 4: We want to stop any additional signage removal in the

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Speaker 4: name of restoring truth and sanity to American history in

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Speaker 4: our national parks.

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Speaker 3: So you're hoping for an outcome similar to that in

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Speaker 3: the Philadelphia case.

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Speaker 4: That's exactly correct. Yeah, we just at this point in time,

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Speaker 4: we have an administration right now that has taken this

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Speaker 4: restoration of truth and sanity issue too far. And I

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Speaker 4: think the judge in the ruling for the preliminary injunction

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Speaker 4: spelled it out that the actions being taken by this

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Speaker 4: administration related to the Philadelphia case are capricious and arbitrary.

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Speaker 4: We certainly feel like that's the case nationwide with some

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Speaker 4: of the things that have been removed. You know, it

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Speaker 4: takes the National Park Service months and sometimes years to

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Speaker 4: develop interpretive arrays and sign that get placed in national parks.

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Speaker 4: They consult with historians and museum collections specialist and ethnographers

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Speaker 4: and archaeologists and community members and descendant communities and historians

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Speaker 4: from outside the agency to get together and develop really good, accurate,

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Speaker 4: inclusive interpretation that will benefit the public and enlighten the

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Speaker 4: public and enhance public knowledge about our history. What's happening

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Speaker 4: right now is it seems that there's somebody is in

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Speaker 4: charge of an algorithm that any time it finds anything

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Speaker 4: in a brochure or on a National Park Service interpretive

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Speaker 4: sign that mentions the word slavery or the initials LGBTQ,

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Speaker 4: it gets yanked out or it gets flagged for removal.

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Speaker 4: That's not a rigorous historical academic process, and I think

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Speaker 4: it's hurting us more than it's helping us at this

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Speaker 4: point in time. Again, we've got a very complex story.

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Speaker 4: We benefit when we're able to learn about where we've

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Speaker 4: come from and about the breadth and depth of the

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Speaker 4: contributions that people from a variety of backgrounds have made

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Speaker 4: to this country to make us the people that we

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Speaker 4: are today.

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Speaker 3: So you describe this as a game of whack a mole.

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Speaker 3: You don't know where in what National park some information

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Speaker 3: is going to be taken down. So even if you

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Speaker 3: get a judge's order, how will that be enforced?

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Speaker 4: Well, that's a good question. That is also something for

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Speaker 4: the lawyers and the legal teams to figure out. And

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Speaker 4: you know, once a ruling is made, we would hope

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Speaker 4: that everybody would abide by the law and buy the findings.

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Speaker 4: And the idea is we have, at this point in

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Speaker 4: time a problem that goes well beyond signage. And I

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Speaker 4: think that's the challenge that we've got right now and

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Speaker 4: that we're trying to communicate to the public. So if

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Speaker 4: let's say the installation about enslaved people that came with

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Speaker 4: George Washington and served his family in Philadelphia when he

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Speaker 4: was president, let's say those signs are removed and they

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Speaker 4: stay down, we lose an opportunity at that site to

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Speaker 4: have a conversation about the issue of slavery and its

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Speaker 4: place in the founding era of this country. And let

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Speaker 4: me tell you, George Washington as our president, deserves a

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Speaker 4: world of credit because he's the guy that helped to

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Speaker 4: establish our democratic traditions. When he got to the end

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Speaker 4: of his second presidential term, he was standing next to

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Speaker 4: some people who were elbowing him and saying, you know,

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Speaker 4: General you know people with muskets. We know people with muskets.

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Speaker 4: We can keep you in this position for as long

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Speaker 4: as you'd like to be the supreme leader of this nation.

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Speaker 4: In Washington, to his credit, said no, I believe in

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Speaker 4: civilian leadership and peaceful transition. We're gonna have an election.

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Speaker 4: We're going to let the next person come in and

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Speaker 4: take over the presidency. So our democratic traditions extend to

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Speaker 4: George Washington and his ability to be that self effacing.

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Speaker 4: And he was also a guy who owned several enslaved Africans.

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Speaker 4: And I think we need to be at a place

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Speaker 4: where we can walk, chew gum and think difficult thoughts

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Speaker 4: all at the same time. And so what we hope

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Speaker 4: through this lawsuit is to suggest to the administration and

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Speaker 4: to the people in America that this is an important issue.

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Speaker 4: We don't need to erase our history. We don't need

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Speaker 4: to hide from our history. We benefit all of us

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Speaker 4: by being able to think critically about things that happened

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Speaker 4: in our past that still very much influence us to

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Speaker 4: this day. So in that regard, the lawsuits starts with

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Speaker 4: the notion of stopping history erasure and signage removal, but

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Speaker 4: it goes well beyond that. It's a much more important

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Speaker 4: and challenging issue that we're facing right now.

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Speaker 3: Alan, I'm curious about something. So websites have been scrubbed

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Speaker 3: of information about slavery, sexism, climate change, etc. Is that

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Speaker 3: erased information stored somewhere so you can restore it right

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Speaker 3: away when you get a judge's order, or do you

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Speaker 3: have to go through some other kind of process to

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Speaker 3: develop the information Again.

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Speaker 4: It's a little bit like the novel Fahrenheit four or

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Speaker 4: five one where the people wander around in the woods

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Speaker 4: and they've memorized all the poetry and the science and

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Speaker 4: the literature, and they share those oral histories with young

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Speaker 4: people so that at some point in time in the

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Speaker 4: future they can come back and maybe republish all the

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Speaker 4: books that have been burned. We're not quite at that

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Speaker 4: stage at this point in time, but we do have

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Speaker 4: an organization called Save our Signs, and we do have

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Speaker 4: people who have taken photographs of websites, screen captures of websites,

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Speaker 4: so we do have a sense of before and after,

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Speaker 4: and I think there will be the ability to rebuild

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Speaker 4: and repair. But I would also tell you this, there

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Speaker 4: were some reports or some people who suggested that the

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Speaker 4: National Park Service at the President's home in Philadelphia were

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Speaker 4: ripping down these displays and maybe even tossing them into

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Speaker 4: garbage cans. That's not what happened. They were taken down carefully.

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Speaker 4: They have been put in a place whereby as they

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Speaker 4: have been ordered by a judge. At some point in time,

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Speaker 4: we hope to see them restore to their rightful place

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Speaker 4: at the President's home display on enslaved people. And so

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Speaker 4: we do have ways that we can recover this information,

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Speaker 4: even if it has been sanitized or erased from a website.

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Speaker 4: But the lawsuit that we have initiated is to make

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Speaker 4: sure that we don't lose anything else.

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Speaker 3: Any closing thoughts.

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Speaker 4: You know, we've got people who are concerned about history

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Speaker 4: being a little bit too woke. But I'll tell you

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Speaker 4: from my own personal perspective that when I do my

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Speaker 4: ancestry research, it only takes me about two generations to

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Speaker 4: get back to my first enslaved ancestor. And my parents

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Speaker 4: were working here in Washington, d C. In the nineteen

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Speaker 4: forties and the nineteen fifties. In the early nineteen sixties,

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Speaker 4: when despite the fact that they had good incomes and

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Speaker 4: good jobs. There were certain places they couldn't go, certain

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Speaker 4: restaurants where they couldn't walk through the front door and

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Speaker 4: sit down and have a bite to eat, hotels where

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Speaker 4: they couldn't spend the night, and even, quite frankly, some

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Speaker 4: national parks where they didn't go to because they felt

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Speaker 4: like segregated circumstances would keep them out. So for me,

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Speaker 4: this isn't DEI, this isn't woke. It's my family history,

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Speaker 4: and that history, for my family and other families needs

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Speaker 4: to be respected and it needs to be maintained as

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Speaker 4: part of our shared national narrative.

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Speaker 3: Preserving our history is so important. Thanks so much, Alan

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Speaker 3: for joining me today. I hope you'll come back again.

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Speaker 3: That's Alan Spears, senior director of Cultural Resources for the

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Speaker 3: National Park's Conservation Association. In the latest legal clash between

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Speaker 3: the Trump administration and Harvard, the administration is suing the

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Speaker 3: Ivy League institution for allegedly failing to hand over documents

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Speaker 3: related to investigations into racial discrimination in admissions. Harvard says

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Speaker 3: it's complied with civil rights law under a twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: three Supreme Court decision that effectively barred universities from using

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Speaker 3: race as a factor in admissions, and that it's produced

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Speaker 3: more than twenty three hundred pages of admissions related documents,

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Speaker 3: but the administration wants more. At the applicant level, the

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Speaker 3: Trump administration has aggressively targeted elite universities by withholding federal

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Speaker 3: grants over alleged anti semitism, as well as racial and

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Speaker 3: ideological diversity. Though other Ivy League schools like Columbia and

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Speaker 3: Brown have reached deals with the administration, Harvard has publicly

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Speaker 3: fought back by filing its own suits against the government.

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Speaker 3: Joining me is Audrey Anderson, head of the higher education

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Speaker 3: practice at Bessberry and Simms. So, Audrey, why is the

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Speaker 3: Trump administration suing Harvard this time?

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Speaker 1: The Trump administration is suing Harvard in order to get

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Speaker 1: access to data that Harvard has about its student admissions program.

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Speaker 1: In April, the Trump administration started a compliance review of

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Speaker 1: Harvard's student admissions program in a couple of its schools,

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Speaker 1: It's undergraduate school, it's medical school, and its law school,

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Speaker 1: and among the data that it was asking for was

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Speaker 1: individual student level admissions data. And according to the lawsuit

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Speaker 1: that the government filed last week against Harvard, Harvard has

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Speaker 1: not provided that data.

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Speaker 2: To the government.

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Speaker 1: So the government now now has sued in federal court

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Speaker 1: in order to force Harvard to provide it with that

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Speaker 1: individual student level and missions data.

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Speaker 3: Harvard's produced more than twenty three hundred pages of admission

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Speaker 3: related documents, but the government is seeking a searchable electronic

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Speaker 3: spreadsheet with individual level data that identifies applicants, race and ethnicity,

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Speaker 3: economic indicators, undergraduate class rank and GPA, MCAT scores, internal ratings,

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Speaker 3: and holistic review factors and ratings. This is what's reference

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Speaker 3: to the medical school. Are they entitled to get a

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Speaker 3: searchable electronic spreadsheet?

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Speaker 1: That's a really good question, June, and that's what they're

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Speaker 1: going to be litigating over. The regulations say that the

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Speaker 1: government can require recipients of federal monies like Harvard to

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Speaker 1: provide reports, and then it also says that they can

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Speaker 1: ask for a review of the recipient's records. So if

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Speaker 1: Harvard does not already have a searchable electronic spreadsheet with

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Speaker 1: all of those fields, I think they may have a

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Speaker 1: good argument that they do not have to create it

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Speaker 1: for the government, that that's not the kind of a

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Speaker 1: report that the regulations require people to put.

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Speaker 2: Together for the government.

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Speaker 1: I think that's one of the arguments that Harvard may

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Speaker 1: make in this lawsuit.

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Speaker 3: I mean, this is all about they're examining whether there's

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Speaker 3: discrimination against white students. Right, that's correct. So go back

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Speaker 3: to the Supreme Court decision and explain what Harvard is

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Speaker 3: allowed to consider. They're not allowed to consider race, for say,

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Speaker 3: but there are other things that they can consider.

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Speaker 2: Right, Harvard can consider anything other than race.

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Speaker 1: Under the Students for Fair Admissions decision. The issue is

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Speaker 1: that the government believes two things. The government believes first

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Speaker 1: of all, that Harvard is using some race neutral things

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Speaker 1: like socioeconomic status, like maybe geographic factors as what we

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Speaker 1: call proxies for race. That what Harvard has done is said,

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Speaker 1: you know what, if we admit a bunch of low

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Speaker 1: income people, that will get us the racial balance that

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Speaker 1: we want. If Harvard's doing that, that's illegal. However, if

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Speaker 1: Harvard is saying, you know what, it's good for our class,

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Speaker 1: if we have people who are from all over the

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Speaker 1: United States, and it's good for our class. If we

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Speaker 1: have some people who are from the city and some

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Speaker 1: people who are from suburbs, and some people who are

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Speaker 1: from rural areas, that's not illegal. Even if that ends

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Speaker 1: up getting them the racial balance that they want. If

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Speaker 1: they do it because they want a balance of people

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Speaker 1: from different areas, that's not illegal.

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Speaker 2: The government, though, wants this data.

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Speaker 1: Because they want to be able to prove that Harvard

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Speaker 1: is using these race neutral factors for a racial purpose.

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Speaker 3: So is the government entitled to for example, essays that

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Speaker 3: the students write.

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Speaker 1: I think that that's another good question. They're entitled to

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Speaker 1: reasonable data, and so the court is going to have

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Speaker 1: to figure out what's reasonable. I mean, the complaint that

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Speaker 1: the government is filed says that the government needs applicant

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Speaker 1: level data to determine whether Harvard is complying with the

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Speaker 1: students for.

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Speaker 2: Fair admissions case. I'm not sure that that's even true.

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Speaker 1: If Harvard has provided all of its policies, all of

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Speaker 1: its procedures for admitting students, for example, and let's say

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Speaker 1: that those procedures say you're not to consider race, and

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Speaker 1: the people who read applications don't have available to them

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Speaker 1: the race of applicants. I think there might even be

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Speaker 1: an argument to be made there that without some kind

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Speaker 1: of reason to open a full on investigation, the government

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Speaker 1: isn't entitled to more data. That's probably a stretch of

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Speaker 1: an argument. But what's really interesting to me June is

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Speaker 1: that the government since the Trump administration, has said that

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Speaker 1: in enforcing Title six, which is the law we're talking

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Speaker 1: about here, no race discrimination if you receive federal funds,

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Speaker 1: they are no longer going to pursue cases of what

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Speaker 1: we call disparate impact. Disparate impact is you may have

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Speaker 1: a racially neutral factor that has a disproportionate impact on

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Speaker 1: We used to think about it as racial minorities. So

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Speaker 1: a classic case of that is a fire department that

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Speaker 1: has a written test for firefighters to be promoted. The

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Speaker 1: Department of Justice decades ago brought a bunch of cases

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Speaker 1: against fire department saying, look, you use this test. It's

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Speaker 1: facially neutral, but when you use it, your numbers of

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Speaker 1: black and Hispanic people who can be promoted go way

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Speaker 1: way down. It has a disproportionately racial impact, and we

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Speaker 1: get to look at that disproportionate impact and dig further

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Speaker 1: or to see if you really need to have that test.

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Speaker 1: The government under Trump said, we're not going to pursue

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Speaker 1: those kinds of cases. We don't care about disproportioned impact.

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Speaker 1: But in the way they're going after Harvard that's what

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Speaker 1: they're doing. They want to look at disproportionate impact. Harvard,

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Speaker 1: do these race neutral factors you are using in admissions

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Speaker 1: have a disproportionate impact against white people? So I see

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Speaker 1: it as really ironic that they're not calling a disproportionate impact,

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Speaker 1: but they seem to be interested in using a disproportionate

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Speaker 1: impact theory in college admissions when it hurts white people,

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Speaker 1: but they're not going to use it in other areas

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Speaker 1: where it hurts minorities.

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Speaker 3: That's interesting. Coming up next on the Bloomberg Lawn Show,

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Speaker 3: I'll continue this conversation with Audrey Anderson of Besparian Sims.

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Speaker 3: Is the timing of this latest lawsuit a little bit suspect.

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Speaker 3: I'm June Grossol, and you're listening to Bloomberg. The Justice

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Speaker 3: Department sued Harvard University for allegedly failing to hand over

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Speaker 3: documents related to investigations into racial discrimination in admissions. It's

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Speaker 3: the latest legal clash between the Trump administration and the

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Speaker 3: Ivy League institution. I've been talking to Audrey Anderson, head

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Speaker 3: of the higher education practice at Bessbary and Simms. Is

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Speaker 3: the timing of this lawsuit suspect? Because there was a

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Speaker 3: report by The New York Times that Trump had dropped

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Speaker 3: his demand for two hundred million dollars from Harvard, and

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Speaker 3: then the President came out on truth Social and announced

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Speaker 3: that he was now seeking one billion dollars in damages

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Speaker 3: from the university, although he didn't say under what authority

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Speaker 3: he'd be seeking that money. And then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: you have this lawsuit. So it seems like it's part

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Speaker 3: and parcel of the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think that's going to be one of the

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Speaker 1: first arguments that Harvard makes is that this is just

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Speaker 1: more of the same. This is just more of the

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Speaker 1: government's retaliation against Harvard for its speech. You know, Harvard

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Speaker 1: right now has two lawsuits going on against the government,

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Speaker 1: where one in the district court. They're both on appeal

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Speaker 1: right now to the First Circuit Court of Appeals, but

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Speaker 1: both of those suits at won on First Amendment grounds,

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Speaker 1: saying that the government is just taking retaliatory measures against

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Speaker 1: them because they have spoken out against the government's efforts

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Speaker 1: on DEI and the government's efforts on foreign student visas.

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Speaker 3: Also adding to that the Defense Department is severing academic

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Speaker 3: ties to Harvard and ending professional military education fellowship at

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Speaker 3: the Harvard Kennedy School of Government at the end of

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Speaker 3: the cur an academic year, and that's within days of

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Speaker 3: the suit. Do you have any idea what President Trump

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Speaker 3: was talking about when he was calling for a criminal

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Speaker 3: investigation and a billion dollar fine.

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Speaker 1: The criminal investigation is a new thing June, and I've

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Speaker 1: really scratched my head. I will admit I haven't done

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Speaker 1: any research to see. I really think that's just something

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Speaker 1: that the President made up. The billion dollar fine is

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Speaker 1: a number that he's come up with before. He wanted

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Speaker 1: a billion dollar fine against UCLA as well. He mentioned

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Speaker 1: that number, So that's just a number that he's liked

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Speaker 1: to throw out there from time to time. You know,

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Speaker 1: what the press has reported, you know, mostly out of

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Speaker 1: New York Times, is that others in the government have

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Speaker 1: wanted two hundred million dollar fine out of Harvard, and

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Speaker 1: Harvard has at least so far drawn a line saying

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Speaker 1: we will not pay any amount of a fine to

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Speaker 1: the federal government, and that has been one of its

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Speaker 1: red line. But certainly I think that the Defense departments

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Speaker 1: actions and this lawsuit are just part of the government's

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Speaker 1: tactics to continue to put.

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Speaker 2: Pressure on Harvard. In order to try to get it

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Speaker 2: to settle.

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Speaker 3: Do you know how it is affecting Harvard? Is it

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Speaker 3: affecting the number of students who apply? Is it affecting

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Speaker 3: Harvard at all?

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Speaker 1: I haven't taken a look at their admissions. It has

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Speaker 1: to be making a financial impact on them. But you know,

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00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: Harvard does have a large amount of financial resources. They

439
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: floated some bonds last year in order to get some

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00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: additional funds in order to operate and in order to

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00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: fight the federal government.

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00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 2: But it can't go on forever.

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00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 1: So they have to be starting to feel the pinch

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00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: and feeling some uncertainty and just kind of overall. June,

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00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: you know the damage this is due to higher education

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00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: in terms of us losing the best and brightest researchers

447
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: who are not seeing the United States as the best

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00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: place for them to be able to research. That damage

449
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: is increasing every day as they look to go to

450
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 1: Europe or Canada or China in order to conduct the

451
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: most important groundbreaking research. And the United States used to

452
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: be the best place, hands down for those people to go.

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00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: And now we're losing our own researchers, and we're losing

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00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 1: researchers from around the world.

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00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 3: It's not only Harvard. The University of Pennsylvania is resisting

456
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 3: a subpoena for information about employees who brought complaints about

457
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 3: antisemitic discrimination and about those who are members of Jewish

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00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 3: groups on campus.

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00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that one is really troubling to me. June.

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00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 2: They they want the University of Pennsylvania.

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00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: To give them lists of people who have been members

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00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: of Jewish groups and who have participated in Jewish group

463
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: activities so that the government can reach out. They say,

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00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 1: so that the government can reach out to those people

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00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: individually and say, have you experienced anti semitism while you're

466
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: at the University of Pennsylvania. And the University of Pennsylvania said, Hey,

467
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: we're a little uncomfortable with that. How about if we

468
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: just send everybody at the university the email that you

469
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 1: want us to send them, saying, Hey, if you have

470
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: witnessed or been the subject of any anti semitism, here

471
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: are the people in the government who you should reach

472
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: out to because they want to hear from you. Why

473
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: don't we send that to everybody at the university? And

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00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: the government is not satisfied with that, And I cannot,

475
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: for the life of me figure out why the government

476
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: would not be satisfied with that accommodation and instead is

477
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: insisting on getting a list of the Jewish employees.

478
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,719
Speaker 2: At the University of Pennsylvania.

479
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 3: And the schools that settled, like Brown and Columbia, are

480
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 3: they home free after that settlement and the government is

481
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 3: not interfering with them anymore.

482
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: The compliance review that Harvard is fighting about these documents

483
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: over is a compliance review that the government started at

484
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: some other schools as well. Some of the schools that

485
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: settled when they settled, this compliance review was something the

486
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: government said, Okay, we're not going to look into you

487
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: anymore under this compliance review, so they got out from

488
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: under this very compliance review by settling. There are some

489
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: other schools, however, that don't have any settlement agreement with

490
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: the government that are also part of this compliance review,

491
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: and I think that some of them may have provided

492
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: this kind of information to the government. It's my understanding

493
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: that schools that may have provided this information did so

494
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: on an anonymized basis, so they're not giving any student

495
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: names to the government, so you know exactly how they've

496
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 1: done it. I don't know the other thing that I

497
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: think that Harvard may come forward and say is they're

498
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: uncomfortable giving this kind of data because the government's unwilling

499
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: to say what they.

500
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 2: Will do with it and who they will release it to.

501
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: One of the things that's concerning about this is that

502
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people in the public who are

503
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: very interested in suing universities like students for fair admissions.

504
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of groups like that out there

505
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: who would love to have this kind of data so

506
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: that they can do their own analyzes and then bring

507
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: lawsuits against colleges and university And so if the government's

508
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: not promising to keep this data within the government, and

509
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: maybe even if they are promising, because there's a lot

510
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: of distrust right now, it's really quite concerning that they

511
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: may share this data with private parties who have more

512
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: time and interest in bringing civil suits.

513
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 3: There's always a lot of interest in bringing civil suits.

514
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Audrey, it's a pleasure to have you

515
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 3: on again. That's Audrey Anderson, head of the higher education

516
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 3: practice at bess Berry and Simms. And that's it for

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00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 3: this edition of the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can

518
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 3: always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcast.

519
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 3: You can find them on Apple podcasts Spotify and at

520
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 3: www dot bloomberg dot com, slash podcast, Slash Law, and

521
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 3: remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight

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00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 3: at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso and

523
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 3: you're listening to Bloomberg