WEBVTT - A New Media Business Model 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:32.676 Pushkin Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the 0:00:32.756 --> 0:00:36.156 show where we explore the stories behind the stories in 0:00:36.196 --> 0:00:41.156 the news. I'm Noah Feldman. As regular listeners know, this 0:00:41.196 --> 0:00:44.676 season's theme at Deep Background is power, and right now 0:00:44.836 --> 0:00:49.196 we're talking about power in the worlds of media and publishing. 0:00:49.756 --> 0:00:52.156 Today we're going to look at an aspect of publishing 0:00:52.396 --> 0:00:55.996 that is often opaque, the world of business journalism. But 0:00:56.076 --> 0:00:58.276 not business journalism as you would find it in the 0:00:58.316 --> 0:01:02.436 pages of the Wall Street Journal. Rather business journalism of 0:01:02.476 --> 0:01:07.596 the kind that you find in magazines like Entrepreneur, Fast Company, 0:01:08.076 --> 0:01:12.476 or Force. These kinds of journalism are distinctive in their 0:01:12.556 --> 0:01:18.116 relationship to the structures of capital themselves, namely the businesses 0:01:18.316 --> 0:01:21.436 that gather capital and expend it in trying to make 0:01:21.556 --> 0:01:26.916 more money. In that sense, today's conversation genuinely goes behind 0:01:27.196 --> 0:01:30.756 the stories that we might read in this genre of news. 0:01:31.676 --> 0:01:35.356 To discuss these issues, we're joined by Jason Feiffer, who's 0:01:35.396 --> 0:01:39.556 the editor in chief of the magazine Entrepreneur. He's agreed 0:01:39.556 --> 0:01:41.916 to talk to us about the state of his industry, 0:01:42.276 --> 0:01:45.876 how he conceives his job, and how it relates to 0:01:45.916 --> 0:01:57.716 other forms of journalism. That we're accustomed to thinking about. Jason, 0:01:57.916 --> 0:02:00.236 thank you so much for being here. Thank you. I 0:02:00.276 --> 0:02:05.236 want to start by just diving into the industry that 0:02:05.276 --> 0:02:09.516 you're most focused on right now, the magazine industry. You're 0:02:09.596 --> 0:02:12.276 part of it, the business journalism part of it seems 0:02:12.316 --> 0:02:16.036 to be thriving at a time when most of the 0:02:16.076 --> 0:02:18.916 rest of the industry is. I guess it's somewhere in 0:02:18.996 --> 0:02:22.196 the middle of its freefall according to conventional wisdom. So 0:02:22.676 --> 0:02:25.756 am I right about what looks like a good moment 0:02:25.756 --> 0:02:28.356 in the history of a business journalism and business magazines? 0:02:28.396 --> 0:02:30.556 And if so, what's the secret that you guys have 0:02:30.596 --> 0:02:32.676 that the rest of the industry is struggling with? At 0:02:32.716 --> 0:02:35.236 least I can speak for us in that we are 0:02:35.276 --> 0:02:38.716 doing very well. The pandemic was scary, of course, as 0:02:38.756 --> 0:02:41.676 it was for everybody, but it came roaring back really fast, 0:02:41.836 --> 0:02:44.876 and we've been on an upward trajectory for years as 0:02:44.916 --> 0:02:48.996 you would define it by any reasonable standard, which is 0:02:49.036 --> 0:02:53.556 to say, traffic, readership, advertising, and so on. And that's 0:02:53.596 --> 0:02:57.116 been great. And look, I just want to make sure 0:02:57.356 --> 0:03:00.356 I'm like speaking most for my own corner of the world, 0:03:00.396 --> 0:03:02.276 because when we say business journalism, we can mean a 0:03:02.276 --> 0:03:05.756 lot of different things, and one thing I don't do 0:03:05.876 --> 0:03:11.636 an entrepreneur is run deep investigative pieces that are gonna 0:03:11.796 --> 0:03:16.316 uncover bad deeds from CEOs and so on, because that's 0:03:16.356 --> 0:03:18.876 just not our mission. Our mission is to support entrepreneurs. 0:03:18.876 --> 0:03:21.916 And so in my world, what I see is an 0:03:22.316 --> 0:03:28.316 unbelievable explosion in interest and desire to be an entrepreneur 0:03:28.436 --> 0:03:31.796 or to at least infuse your life with those kinds 0:03:31.876 --> 0:03:36.716 of mindsets of taking control of your life and building 0:03:36.756 --> 0:03:39.556 something for your own and so on, and so there's 0:03:39.556 --> 0:03:42.276 a lot of energy around that. I have often said, 0:03:42.396 --> 0:03:45.036 as I've explained the media to friends, that I don't 0:03:45.036 --> 0:03:46.716 know what on earth I would do if I was 0:03:46.796 --> 0:03:51.036 running Time magazine, because it tries to reach so many people, 0:03:51.236 --> 0:03:53.756 it has to be so many different things. But this 0:03:53.876 --> 0:03:58.036 particular audience, business, entrepreneurship, there's a lot of energy. And 0:03:58.156 --> 0:04:01.636 I don't think even though there's a million resources, enough 0:04:01.956 --> 0:04:04.316 trusted resources, because there are a lot of people who 0:04:04.356 --> 0:04:06.996 are out there trying to take advantage of your time 0:04:06.996 --> 0:04:10.316 and money, and so to have a did brand that 0:04:10.396 --> 0:04:12.356 people can turn to, I think still has a lot 0:04:12.396 --> 0:04:16.836 of value even in a fractured media environment. Let's dig 0:04:16.876 --> 0:04:19.156 deep a little bit on that, because it makes sense 0:04:19.156 --> 0:04:21.276 to me to say that to be in a space 0:04:21.916 --> 0:04:24.716 where the culture is bringing a lot of energy, right, 0:04:24.756 --> 0:04:26.436 we are in a better or worse in a business 0:04:26.476 --> 0:04:30.036 culture where many of our heroes are people who started companies, 0:04:31.036 --> 0:04:34.516 and in that sense, entrepreneurship is a kind of tremendous 0:04:34.716 --> 0:04:38.076 cultural ideal. Yet if you think of say, you know, 0:04:38.196 --> 0:04:41.476 fashion or glamour or luxury, that's also a space where 0:04:41.476 --> 0:04:44.556 there's a lot of excitement and attraction in the culture. 0:04:44.956 --> 0:04:49.196 And yet the big magazines that were the dominant players 0:04:49.476 --> 0:04:54.436 in shaping our conception of that cultural movement are struggling 0:04:54.556 --> 0:04:58.756 relative to where they once were. So does there feel 0:04:58.756 --> 0:05:02.156 like there's something different to you about entrepreneurship at that 0:05:02.276 --> 0:05:05.316 end of the business that makes us distinctive. Yeah, it's 0:05:05.316 --> 0:05:09.916 a really interesting question. I think that we need to 0:05:09.956 --> 0:05:14.796 put what I'm experiencing into a broader context, which is 0:05:14.836 --> 0:05:20.316 to say, maybe thirty forty years ago, because that's how 0:05:20.316 --> 0:05:23.676 long this brand has been around. The brand was a 0:05:23.716 --> 0:05:26.996 singular voice in the world of entrepreneurship in a way 0:05:26.996 --> 0:05:28.956 that it is not now. It simply can't be. There 0:05:28.956 --> 0:05:32.516 are too many people, as you say, who are offering 0:05:32.836 --> 0:05:35.796 the kinds of things that we offer, which is to say, 0:05:35.916 --> 0:05:39.316 guidance on entrepreneurship and insider access to how people think 0:05:39.356 --> 0:05:42.716 and all that stuff. And so what's our value proposition 0:05:42.796 --> 0:05:47.156 now in a crowded world of those folks. Well, for one, 0:05:47.276 --> 0:05:51.876 I think there's a I think that it's fair to 0:05:51.996 --> 0:05:56.556 say that we live in an abundance world, which is 0:05:56.556 --> 0:06:00.396 to say that just because somebody comes along and occupies 0:06:00.436 --> 0:06:02.196 a space that you might be in doesn't mean that 0:06:02.236 --> 0:06:05.636 you necessarily have to lose something. Instead, I think that 0:06:05.716 --> 0:06:09.876 we have to think of a brand and an individual 0:06:10.476 --> 0:06:14.356 as both being valuable and in a space that has 0:06:14.756 --> 0:06:18.556 infinite expansion. I'm really unthreatened by and I know that 0:06:18.596 --> 0:06:20.596 we'll get into this a little bit later, but you know, 0:06:20.676 --> 0:06:25.236 I'm unthreatened by the fracturing of a media environment. I'm 0:06:25.356 --> 0:06:29.756 unthreatened by not being the sole authoritative voice in a space. 0:06:30.236 --> 0:06:32.916 I think that as long as you have an understanding 0:06:33.036 --> 0:06:36.196 of what kind of value you can bring that maybe 0:06:36.196 --> 0:06:40.196 others don't, that you still have a place in their lives. 0:06:41.076 --> 0:06:43.476 Let me ask what I hope it's a foundational question 0:06:43.516 --> 0:06:46.756 and if it has a tinge of kind of curious skepticism. 0:06:46.796 --> 0:06:50.316 That's okay. Sure, you use the word brand a few 0:06:50.356 --> 0:06:53.396 times describe entrepreneur, and that makes perfect sense, both in 0:06:53.396 --> 0:06:55.596 the concrete it's a business and it's a business that's 0:06:55.716 --> 0:06:58.956 setting out to make profit, and also in the sense 0:06:59.036 --> 0:07:01.436 that any entity can be thought of as a brand 0:07:01.476 --> 0:07:04.076 in some sense. That said, when you were describing the brand, 0:07:04.116 --> 0:07:06.076 you were also saying, look, there's certain kinds of journalism 0:07:06.156 --> 0:07:08.876 we don't do. We're not trying to do the investigative 0:07:08.916 --> 0:07:12.916 journim to find distortions or frauds. And you also said 0:07:12.916 --> 0:07:14.676 that you have a kind of mission driven vision that 0:07:14.676 --> 0:07:18.676 you're supportive of people who are entrepreneurs. Is it possible 0:07:18.676 --> 0:07:22.356 that that's the model that's capable of existing in the 0:07:22.396 --> 0:07:27.036 media world today, And is there something worrisommer or devastating 0:07:27.076 --> 0:07:30.836 about that that, namely that a media business that says, look, 0:07:30.876 --> 0:07:33.116 this is our mission. We're helping these folks. We stand 0:07:33.116 --> 0:07:36.316 behind this set of beliefs and values. We're not trying to, 0:07:36.916 --> 0:07:40.956 in some neutral or objective way, describe the ends and 0:07:40.996 --> 0:07:43.236 the outs and the goods and the bads to the world. 0:07:43.276 --> 0:07:47.396 And if if that's right, shouldn't we be worried about 0:07:47.396 --> 0:07:49.476 that with respect to media power, because won't let mean 0:07:49.516 --> 0:07:52.796 that more and more media will gravitate towards that kind 0:07:52.836 --> 0:07:56.396 of brand oriented, mission oriented work rather than trying to 0:07:56.436 --> 0:07:59.876 explain the world to us. So this is a really 0:07:59.916 --> 0:08:04.556 wonderful question and really insightful. And again, I can only 0:08:04.556 --> 0:08:07.316 speak for myself and my own views and experiences here, 0:08:07.356 --> 0:08:12.476 but I think that we do ourselves a disservice. And 0:08:12.516 --> 0:08:15.996 I'm speaking we generally, the people who think about things 0:08:16.196 --> 0:08:19.676 when we try to create simple narratives out of chaos. 0:08:20.196 --> 0:08:28.316 And I don't worry that just because a brand like 0:08:28.556 --> 0:08:33.116 Entrepreneur is doing well. And again, I just very very 0:08:33.156 --> 0:08:36.036 open about what we do and what we don't do. 0:08:36.396 --> 0:08:39.276 We're not the New York Times Business Section, we're not 0:08:39.356 --> 0:08:45.556 Bloomberg BusinessWeek. We serve entrepreneurs and we champion entrepreneurs. It's 0:08:45.556 --> 0:08:49.476 a totally different thing. But just because this does well 0:08:49.556 --> 0:08:53.116 doesn't mean that the opposite can't do well too. And 0:08:53.396 --> 0:08:55.996 we also should be mindful that the way that we 0:08:56.076 --> 0:08:59.396 think of the media today is not some timeless thing, 0:08:59.476 --> 0:09:02.716 but it's actually a fairly new thing. I mean, if 0:09:02.716 --> 0:09:05.996 you're rewind to what media looked like in America and 0:09:06.116 --> 0:09:09.196 the eighteen hundreds. It doesn't look anything like what we 0:09:09.476 --> 0:09:13.916 are worried we're losing now with a handful of authoritative 0:09:13.956 --> 0:09:20.756 and objective enterprises that try to separate truth from fiction 0:09:20.876 --> 0:09:23.556 and call the shots that that that's a that's a 0:09:23.596 --> 0:09:27.876 new thing. So let's not think that just because something 0:09:27.996 --> 0:09:30.796 exists now, it needs to exist in the way that 0:09:30.836 --> 0:09:33.916 we're familiar with it forever and ever, because it didn't 0:09:34.036 --> 0:09:37.836 exist forever and ever. So that's not to discount the 0:09:37.996 --> 0:09:40.916 real importance, of course, of that kind of journalism. It's 0:09:40.996 --> 0:09:46.236 exceptionally valuable. I just don't worry about its existence in 0:09:46.276 --> 0:09:50.876 a changing media environment because we are we are the 0:09:50.916 --> 0:09:55.756 products of change. We're constantly seeing change. And I think 0:09:55.756 --> 0:09:59.036 that we often make this mistake of thinking that just 0:09:59.156 --> 0:10:02.756 because something exists in the form that we're familiar with it, 0:10:03.476 --> 0:10:05.636 that that's the best form that it could ever take, 0:10:06.276 --> 0:10:10.956 and that any shift in that form is somehow unprecedented, 0:10:11.516 --> 0:10:14.676 because that's not the case. So yes, I think that 0:10:14.676 --> 0:10:17.036 it's a good thing that entrepreneur thrives. I think that 0:10:17.076 --> 0:10:23.036 it's a good thing that brands and media organizations that 0:10:23.156 --> 0:10:26.196 do quite the opposite of us also thrive. And I 0:10:26.236 --> 0:10:30.676 think that both are and will be disrupted. And I 0:10:30.716 --> 0:10:35.916 think that's also fine because new forms of serving what 0:10:35.956 --> 0:10:41.476 those brands do, which could be either supporting industries or 0:10:41.516 --> 0:10:47.196 supporting people on individual levels, or holding power to account, 0:10:47.236 --> 0:10:50.196 which is an exceptionally important thing, is something that people 0:10:50.236 --> 0:10:53.516 will know how, they'll find ways to do it, even 0:10:53.556 --> 0:10:57.196 if the economies of media as we know it shift 0:10:57.236 --> 0:11:01.316 and maybe even die. It's just it's happened enough times 0:11:01.316 --> 0:11:03.396 before that I just don't think that we can say 0:11:03.836 --> 0:11:06.356 our time will be different. Our time is never different. 0:11:06.556 --> 0:11:08.676 So let me push back a little bit on that. Sure, 0:11:09.196 --> 0:11:13.156 the background music of what you're saying is the language 0:11:13.316 --> 0:11:17.956 of I would call it creative destruction. Within capitalism, things 0:11:17.956 --> 0:11:21.036 are changing, they're evolving their new opportunities, and that makes 0:11:21.036 --> 0:11:24.236 a lot of sense, especially given that entrepreneur has a 0:11:24.316 --> 0:11:29.436 history of being associated with small businesses, scrappy startups, the 0:11:29.476 --> 0:11:32.516 little guy who are after all, almost always interested in 0:11:32.676 --> 0:11:36.756 trying to change things and disrupt and bring about new results. 0:11:37.356 --> 0:11:40.156 But there is a powerful argument out there that says 0:11:40.196 --> 0:11:44.356 what's distinctive about our moment is just how enormously powerful 0:11:45.436 --> 0:11:51.276 the near monopolists out there are. The Amazons, the alphabets, 0:11:51.596 --> 0:11:55.476 the facebooks, and that argument sometimes comes with a title 0:11:55.556 --> 0:11:58.316 the Curse of bigness. It's actually an idea that comes 0:11:58.316 --> 0:12:01.636 from Louis Brandeis and from progressive antitrust legislation more than 0:12:01.636 --> 0:12:04.196 a century ago. But it was used recently by Tim 0:12:04.196 --> 0:12:07.036 wu who's a professor at Columbia who's become Joe Biden's 0:12:07.036 --> 0:12:10.596 special advisor on antitrust. And you know, broadly speaking, the 0:12:10.956 --> 0:12:16.396 view is that all that good stuff change, evolution is 0:12:16.396 --> 0:12:20.316 being blocked in the current moment. When you think about 0:12:20.436 --> 0:12:24.436 the mission for entrepreneur, how do you think about the 0:12:24.516 --> 0:12:29.196 big mega companies, which on one view, are actually a 0:12:29.276 --> 0:12:35.876 bad thing for your smaller mission driven people. I don't know. 0:12:35.916 --> 0:12:38.716 I mean, if you rewind only a couple decades ago, 0:12:38.796 --> 0:12:41.596 you find all these stories about how Yahoo will never 0:12:41.676 --> 0:12:46.396 be defeated and Nokia will own smartphones forever, and because 0:12:46.556 --> 0:12:50.996 Amazon has put such a dent in Walmart, and you 0:12:50.996 --> 0:12:54.636 can rewind all the way back to A and P Supermarkets, 0:12:54.636 --> 0:12:56.876 the very first supermarket chain, and who how could that 0:12:56.916 --> 0:13:00.036 ever be defeated? And you know, like we were constantly 0:13:00.116 --> 0:13:03.756 I think having this narrative in American culture that that 0:13:03.916 --> 0:13:08.236 bigness is permanent. Whatever new thing we're seeing couldn't possibly 0:13:08.276 --> 0:13:10.476 be displaced, and then over and over again it is. 0:13:11.036 --> 0:13:15.916 And you're right, of course that people small businesses must 0:13:16.116 --> 0:13:20.876 use Facebook. They must use it. It's impossible not to. 0:13:22.516 --> 0:13:27.316 They also find it pretty useful, and I think are 0:13:27.796 --> 0:13:30.636 also finding lots of other ways to reach people that 0:13:31.156 --> 0:13:33.796 aren't on Facebook. I think you work with what you've got. 0:13:34.356 --> 0:13:37.676 I think that when I look at entrepreneurs, I find, 0:13:37.676 --> 0:13:40.916 first of all, quite a lot of fascination. Interestingly among 0:13:41.796 --> 0:13:46.556 entrepreneurs of big players. People want to know about Jeff Bezos. 0:13:46.556 --> 0:13:48.596 They want to know about Elon Musk. I mean at 0:13:48.676 --> 0:13:52.396 entrepreneur dot com right now. I mean if Elon Musk 0:13:52.636 --> 0:13:55.196 farts in the woods and we ran a headline Elon 0:13:55.276 --> 0:13:57.036 Musk farts in the Woods, it would get like three 0:13:57.076 --> 0:14:00.756 million views. And people are fascinated by these people because 0:14:01.196 --> 0:14:08.076 they built something extraordinary, and they are savvy, and they 0:14:08.116 --> 0:14:11.676 are sometimes is quite ruthless. And it's not to say 0:14:11.716 --> 0:14:15.356 that their business practices are always to be celebrated, because 0:14:15.356 --> 0:14:19.556 they certainly are not. I ultimately come down on the 0:14:19.636 --> 0:14:24.796 side of it's worth figuring out where the opportunities are 0:14:24.876 --> 0:14:30.476 and where the opportunities aren't, both in coverage and being 0:14:30.516 --> 0:14:33.756 an entrepreneur who's trying to live and build in a 0:14:33.836 --> 0:14:38.196 world that has large competitors. And what you will find 0:14:38.636 --> 0:14:44.156 if you talk to entrepreneurs is that they do not 0:14:44.316 --> 0:14:49.636 sit there wringing their hands over that there is a 0:14:49.676 --> 0:14:52.356 giant competitor in a space. Instead, what they tend to 0:14:52.396 --> 0:14:56.356 do is think, well, what is this competitor missing and 0:14:56.756 --> 0:15:00.316 what kind of white space is available? Because this competitor 0:15:01.036 --> 0:15:04.076 fast in some ways, though they may be are slow 0:15:04.116 --> 0:15:07.916 in other ways. And this is why people aren't afraid 0:15:07.956 --> 0:15:14.156 of trying to establish new social networks and new search engines. 0:15:14.236 --> 0:15:16.196 And that's not to say any of these are necessarily 0:15:16.236 --> 0:15:19.196 going to topple Facebook or Google, but I don't know 0:15:19.236 --> 0:15:21.116 that that has to be the goal. The goal is 0:15:21.156 --> 0:15:24.836 can you build something new and innovative that's going to 0:15:24.876 --> 0:15:29.556 solve a problem that in existing incumbent does not And 0:15:29.596 --> 0:15:32.476 I think the opportunity is there to do that. You're 0:15:32.476 --> 0:15:36.636 saying something that's really fascinating me, So go back for 0:15:36.676 --> 0:15:38.956 a moment to this policy debate that's being fought out 0:15:39.076 --> 0:15:41.756 between the Biden administration and others, and that's going to 0:15:41.796 --> 0:15:43.996 be thought over the next few years in the courts 0:15:44.076 --> 0:15:48.956 about bigness at about competition. You know, one of the 0:15:48.996 --> 0:15:51.836 things that the innovative thinkers like Timu, like Lena Khan, 0:15:51.916 --> 0:15:55.116 who's now become the chairperson of the FDC, have been 0:15:55.196 --> 0:15:58.476 arguing is that although it's not so obvious how individual 0:15:58.516 --> 0:16:03.876 consumers are harmed by bigness, nevertheless there is somebody who's 0:16:03.916 --> 0:16:07.276 really affected by it, and it's the smaller firms that 0:16:07.316 --> 0:16:10.036 would want to rise up and compete, and we should 0:16:10.076 --> 0:16:12.076 be really worried about that because without those in the 0:16:12.116 --> 0:16:14.956 long run, things really will be worse off for consumers. 0:16:14.956 --> 0:16:17.116 And that's sort of one of their back to the 0:16:17.116 --> 0:16:20.316 future kinds of arguments that they're trying to make. If 0:16:20.356 --> 0:16:23.396 I hear you correctly, it sounds like, at least speaking 0:16:23.396 --> 0:16:26.476 in a general way, for this constituency of small business owners, 0:16:27.076 --> 0:16:29.556 that they're not so worried about in your account, they're 0:16:29.596 --> 0:16:31.676 not so worried at least at a collective level about it. 0:16:31.676 --> 0:16:34.156 It's not the thing that that preoccupies them. And indeed, 0:16:34.156 --> 0:16:36.956 if you put up coverage that's interested in the big 0:16:36.996 --> 0:16:39.796 successful people who started companies, you're saying, you get a 0:16:39.796 --> 0:16:42.876 lot of reaction and probably most of it adulatory, you know, 0:16:42.916 --> 0:16:46.556 positive in some general sense. So if that's so, that 0:16:46.636 --> 0:16:49.236 means that the case the Timu that Lena Khan that 0:16:49.236 --> 0:16:51.836 the Biden administration are trying to make, it's actually an 0:16:51.836 --> 0:16:54.556 even harder case to make than they present it as being. 0:16:55.276 --> 0:16:58.596 If the constituency that they say is being harmed small 0:16:58.636 --> 0:17:02.956 business is actually not so upset or doesn't really imagine 0:17:02.956 --> 0:17:05.836 itself as thinking of itself is harmed. And just to 0:17:05.876 --> 0:17:07.956 follow onto that is, if they did. If your readers 0:17:07.956 --> 0:17:10.916 and your constituents thought that they were being badly harmed 0:17:10.916 --> 0:17:13.196 by this, I take it that would become an important 0:17:13.196 --> 0:17:15.476 part of your coverage. Right If they thought an everyday 0:17:15.476 --> 0:17:18.076 basis that something was making their lives difficult or miserable, 0:17:18.316 --> 0:17:20.076 I assume they would want to want to read about it, 0:17:20.076 --> 0:17:23.156 and they'd want you to cover it. I really appreciate 0:17:23.196 --> 0:17:26.036 that observation. So a couple of things here. Number One, 0:17:28.396 --> 0:17:32.956 Entrepreneurs are kinds of people who like to look at 0:17:33.036 --> 0:17:35.396 what's available and what other people aren't thinking about, and 0:17:35.436 --> 0:17:37.276 then move forward. What they don't do is sit on 0:17:37.316 --> 0:17:39.996 the sidelines and grumble about the things that are in 0:17:40.076 --> 0:17:42.756 their way. It's not the thing that's on the top 0:17:42.796 --> 0:17:47.076 of their mind. They are thinking about how they can 0:17:47.196 --> 0:17:52.116 spot opportunity that other people haven't, and they see these 0:17:52.356 --> 0:17:57.956 giant companies as at once instructive. They're very interested in 0:17:57.996 --> 0:18:02.796 what exceptionally successful founders have done and how they operate, 0:18:03.076 --> 0:18:05.556 because there are things to learn from them. But then 0:18:05.596 --> 0:18:10.156 they also are looking around for ways that they could 0:18:10.596 --> 0:18:15.396 build something utilizing opportunities that are created by these incumbents. 0:18:15.436 --> 0:18:18.316 I mean, how many businesses have been built on Instagram. 0:18:19.316 --> 0:18:22.476 I mean it's countless. I mean, look, this is like 0:18:22.556 --> 0:18:24.596 a This is just going to zoom far off, but 0:18:24.636 --> 0:18:26.036 I promise I'm going to bring it back. I just 0:18:26.076 --> 0:18:27.996 want to tell you this little story that I'm obsessed with, 0:18:28.076 --> 0:18:31.876 and it's about the dawn of the phonograph. So the 0:18:31.876 --> 0:18:34.636 phonograph comes along and it is the very first time 0:18:34.716 --> 0:18:38.276 that anybody ever can hear recorded music. I mean, just 0:18:38.316 --> 0:18:43.236 think about the massive change that that represents. So before that, 0:18:43.716 --> 0:18:45.396 through all of human history, the only time that you 0:18:45.436 --> 0:18:49.116 could ever hear music is if somebody is literally playing 0:18:49.156 --> 0:18:51.276 an instrument in front of you, the only way. And 0:18:51.276 --> 0:18:53.916 then suddenly this machine comes along, and this new industry 0:18:53.916 --> 0:18:56.756 comes along, and it proposes a completely different way of 0:18:56.796 --> 0:19:00.436 experiencing this music, and all of the musicians of the time, 0:19:00.516 --> 0:19:04.716 high profile musicians at the time, are absolutely furious about this. 0:19:04.836 --> 0:19:07.436 John Philip Souza, who of course we know now is 0:19:07.476 --> 0:19:11.836 the composer of all our fam marchesa, that's John Phillips, 0:19:12.276 --> 0:19:16.276 John Philip Susa, is writing screeds against recorded music. He 0:19:16.316 --> 0:19:18.356 makes one of his arguments, which I love the most 0:19:18.396 --> 0:19:21.116 because it's just so insane, was he would say, recorded 0:19:21.236 --> 0:19:23.556 music will enter the home. When it enters the home, 0:19:24.356 --> 0:19:27.436 it will replace all forms of live music, because of course, 0:19:27.556 --> 0:19:31.196 why would you perform live music when instead you could 0:19:31.236 --> 0:19:34.076 just hit a button and hear it out of a machine. 0:19:34.556 --> 0:19:37.636 And now, because of that, mothers will no longer sink 0:19:37.636 --> 0:19:40.676 to their children. And because children grow up imitating their mothers, 0:19:40.676 --> 0:19:42.716 that children will grow up imitating the machines. And thus 0:19:42.716 --> 0:19:45.196 we will create a generation of machine babies. And so 0:19:45.276 --> 0:19:47.756 he and his musicians and the musicians unions of the 0:19:47.756 --> 0:19:51.796 time were very, very concerned and upset about this new industry. 0:19:51.836 --> 0:19:55.876 They felt like it was displacing them. Now what did 0:19:55.916 --> 0:19:59.996 we learn, you know, one hundred years later, I'll tell 0:19:59.996 --> 0:20:02.276 you what we learned. What we learned was that actually 0:20:02.356 --> 0:20:06.436 this gigantic shift, though it seemed to dominate, did not 0:20:06.556 --> 0:20:09.596 actually dominate. What it did was it created a million 0:20:09.676 --> 0:20:13.796 new opportunities. Find a studio engineer and they can thank 0:20:13.956 --> 0:20:16.316 the phonograph for their job. There was a job that 0:20:16.356 --> 0:20:18.676 didn't exist before that. And this, I think is how 0:20:18.796 --> 0:20:21.996 entrepreneurs think. They see a long game. They think about 0:20:22.116 --> 0:20:25.796 how new things don't just gobble everything up, They in 0:20:25.836 --> 0:20:29.476 fact shift the environment, they fracture, they create new opportunities 0:20:29.476 --> 0:20:32.956 where there weren't before. And so I'm honestly not very 0:20:32.956 --> 0:20:38.436 compelled or concerned by the antitrust conversations, which I would 0:20:38.436 --> 0:20:40.396 not propose to be an expert about at all. But 0:20:40.476 --> 0:20:42.276 I can tell you that on the ground level, as 0:20:42.396 --> 0:20:44.836 entrepreneurs are talking about building their businesses, the thing that 0:20:44.876 --> 0:20:48.356 they're not obsessed about is how a handful of giant 0:20:48.396 --> 0:20:51.276 companies are stopping them from coming up with great ideas 0:20:51.316 --> 0:20:53.796 and building something new. It's it's just not what I hear. 0:20:55.636 --> 0:21:08.156 We'll be right back. You've alluded to a distinction between 0:21:08.196 --> 0:21:11.356 what's sometimes called a hard journalism, you know, exemplified by 0:21:11.396 --> 0:21:14.996 the big newspapers, maybe at one time by the network 0:21:15.036 --> 0:21:19.876 news shows and by implication, software journalism, journalism that in 0:21:19.916 --> 0:21:22.636 some way is allied with an industry and is self 0:21:22.636 --> 0:21:25.636 consciously supportive of it. I think for those of us 0:21:25.636 --> 0:21:27.636 who are not connected to the journalism industry, and I 0:21:27.716 --> 0:21:29.996 am perfectly connected to it, so I do follow this 0:21:29.996 --> 0:21:32.796 a little bit. But for most people who aren't, we 0:21:32.876 --> 0:21:36.516 don't know much about the thought world, the power structures, 0:21:36.556 --> 0:21:39.436 or the operation of the so called software journalism. There 0:21:39.436 --> 0:21:41.876 are no movies about it, you know, all The President's 0:21:41.916 --> 0:21:45.076 Men is not about a software journalism entity. Would you 0:21:45.156 --> 0:21:48.156 say a little bit for the interested and open minded 0:21:48.156 --> 0:21:52.836 listener of what is the business structure of software journalism? 0:21:52.956 --> 0:21:55.396 Do you think of yourselves as in a different relationship 0:21:55.996 --> 0:22:01.916 to your subject, to your advertisers? How would you conceptualize that? 0:22:01.956 --> 0:22:03.756 And I wouldn't have introduced the distinction at all if 0:22:03.796 --> 0:22:06.636 you hadn't introduced it. No, it's fine. I'm totally comfortable 0:22:06.676 --> 0:22:10.876 with it because it's been a shift for me and 0:22:11.356 --> 0:22:16.276 I enjoy it. Though it should be noted I come 0:22:16.316 --> 0:22:19.596 from a harder journalism background. I started in daily newspapers 0:22:19.596 --> 0:22:22.436 and this is ultimately where I landed, and I love it, 0:22:22.596 --> 0:22:25.236 but I also want to be really wide eyed and 0:22:25.316 --> 0:22:28.796 open that I'm I'm not the guy doing deep investigations. 0:22:28.956 --> 0:22:30.956 I'm glad somebody else is doing it, but it's not me. 0:22:31.556 --> 0:22:33.236 So yeah, sure, let me tell you about it. Yeah, 0:22:33.276 --> 0:22:34.996 tell us about it, and tell us how power works 0:22:34.996 --> 0:22:36.996 in it relative to how we at least imagine it 0:22:36.996 --> 0:22:40.156 works in harder journalism, right right, Okay, let me tell 0:22:40.156 --> 0:22:42.996 you a little quick story. When I became editor in 0:22:43.036 --> 0:22:48.116 chief of Entrepreneur magazine, I started getting interview requests and 0:22:48.196 --> 0:22:51.956 I said yes, and then people would introduce me in 0:22:51.996 --> 0:22:55.436 this really interesting way. They would have me on their show. 0:22:55.476 --> 0:22:57.596 And you know, generally speaking, I'm talking about there's like 0:22:57.596 --> 0:23:02.596 a billion podcasts about entrepreneurship and these kinds of things, 0:23:03.116 --> 0:23:05.396 and I'd be saying yes to this stuff first, and 0:23:05.596 --> 0:23:07.276 so somebody would have me on and they would say, 0:23:07.316 --> 0:23:09.676 we're so excited to have Jason five, a thought leader 0:23:09.676 --> 0:23:11.516 an entrepreneurship here we're gonna be talking about. And I 0:23:11.556 --> 0:23:13.956 would say, WHOA hold on a second. You know, I 0:23:13.956 --> 0:23:16.836 don't consider myself a thought leader. I consider myself a journalist. 0:23:17.036 --> 0:23:21.036 I'm a storyteller and my job is to find information. 0:23:21.196 --> 0:23:24.956 And I found that they had no idea what I 0:23:24.996 --> 0:23:28.596 was talking about and it was killing the vibe. It 0:23:28.676 --> 0:23:33.756 was like falling downstairs, right, and leader in that and anyway, 0:23:33.916 --> 0:23:35.996 in the world of self promotion, there's no such thing 0:23:36.036 --> 0:23:38.036 as anyone who's not a thought leader. If you're breathing, 0:23:38.076 --> 0:23:40.156 you're a thought leader. Well that's right. And I mean, 0:23:40.196 --> 0:23:42.236 I was telling my wife about this problem. How do 0:23:42.276 --> 0:23:44.076 I what do I do here? Because I'm like, I'm 0:23:44.196 --> 0:23:46.316 destroying the reason that these people are having me on 0:23:46.356 --> 0:23:48.756 their show. And she said, if they want you to 0:23:48.796 --> 0:23:50.476 be a thought leader, just be a thought leader. And 0:23:50.516 --> 0:23:52.356 I realized that the difference between a thought leader and 0:23:52.356 --> 0:23:53.876 not a thought leaders that the thought leader is willing 0:23:53.876 --> 0:23:56.196 to call themselves a thought leader. That's literally the only distinction. 0:23:56.236 --> 0:23:59.596 And so I started to try to understand what people 0:23:59.676 --> 0:24:03.516 understood of me. And that was a really interesting experience 0:24:03.636 --> 0:24:06.436 because look, prior to that, when I was a journey 0:24:06.436 --> 0:24:09.036 when I was a pure journalist, when I was covering 0:24:09.236 --> 0:24:13.196 city council meetings for local newspapers. You know, I'd walk 0:24:13.236 --> 0:24:15.756