1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:32,676 Speaker 1: Pushkin Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the 2 00:00:32,756 --> 00:00:36,156 Speaker 1: show where we explore the stories behind the stories in 3 00:00:36,196 --> 00:00:41,156 Speaker 1: the news. I'm Noah Feldman. As regular listeners know, this 4 00:00:41,196 --> 00:00:44,676 Speaker 1: season's theme at Deep Background is power, and right now 5 00:00:44,836 --> 00:00:49,196 Speaker 1: we're talking about power in the worlds of media and publishing. 6 00:00:49,756 --> 00:00:52,156 Speaker 1: Today we're going to look at an aspect of publishing 7 00:00:52,396 --> 00:00:55,996 Speaker 1: that is often opaque, the world of business journalism. But 8 00:00:56,076 --> 00:00:58,276 Speaker 1: not business journalism as you would find it in the 9 00:00:58,316 --> 00:01:02,436 Speaker 1: pages of the Wall Street Journal. Rather business journalism of 10 00:01:02,476 --> 00:01:07,596 Speaker 1: the kind that you find in magazines like Entrepreneur, Fast Company, 11 00:01:08,076 --> 00:01:12,476 Speaker 1: or Force. These kinds of journalism are distinctive in their 12 00:01:12,556 --> 00:01:18,116 Speaker 1: relationship to the structures of capital themselves, namely the businesses 13 00:01:18,316 --> 00:01:21,436 Speaker 1: that gather capital and expend it in trying to make 14 00:01:21,556 --> 00:01:26,916 Speaker 1: more money. In that sense, today's conversation genuinely goes behind 15 00:01:27,196 --> 00:01:30,756 Speaker 1: the stories that we might read in this genre of news. 16 00:01:31,676 --> 00:01:35,356 Speaker 1: To discuss these issues, we're joined by Jason Feiffer, who's 17 00:01:35,396 --> 00:01:39,556 Speaker 1: the editor in chief of the magazine Entrepreneur. He's agreed 18 00:01:39,556 --> 00:01:41,916 Speaker 1: to talk to us about the state of his industry, 19 00:01:42,276 --> 00:01:45,876 Speaker 1: how he conceives his job, and how it relates to 20 00:01:45,916 --> 00:01:57,716 Speaker 1: other forms of journalism. That we're accustomed to thinking about. Jason, 21 00:01:57,916 --> 00:02:00,236 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. Thank you. I 22 00:02:00,276 --> 00:02:05,236 Speaker 1: want to start by just diving into the industry that 23 00:02:05,276 --> 00:02:09,516 Speaker 1: you're most focused on right now, the magazine industry. You're 24 00:02:09,596 --> 00:02:12,276 Speaker 1: part of it, the business journalism part of it seems 25 00:02:12,316 --> 00:02:16,036 Speaker 1: to be thriving at a time when most of the 26 00:02:16,076 --> 00:02:18,916 Speaker 1: rest of the industry is. I guess it's somewhere in 27 00:02:18,996 --> 00:02:22,196 Speaker 1: the middle of its freefall according to conventional wisdom. So 28 00:02:22,676 --> 00:02:25,756 Speaker 1: am I right about what looks like a good moment 29 00:02:25,756 --> 00:02:28,356 Speaker 1: in the history of a business journalism and business magazines? 30 00:02:28,396 --> 00:02:30,556 Speaker 1: And if so, what's the secret that you guys have 31 00:02:30,596 --> 00:02:32,676 Speaker 1: that the rest of the industry is struggling with? At 32 00:02:32,716 --> 00:02:35,236 Speaker 1: least I can speak for us in that we are 33 00:02:35,276 --> 00:02:38,716 Speaker 1: doing very well. The pandemic was scary, of course, as 34 00:02:38,756 --> 00:02:41,676 Speaker 1: it was for everybody, but it came roaring back really fast, 35 00:02:41,836 --> 00:02:44,876 Speaker 1: and we've been on an upward trajectory for years as 36 00:02:44,916 --> 00:02:48,996 Speaker 1: you would define it by any reasonable standard, which is 37 00:02:49,036 --> 00:02:53,556 Speaker 1: to say, traffic, readership, advertising, and so on. And that's 38 00:02:53,596 --> 00:02:57,116 Speaker 1: been great. And look, I just want to make sure 39 00:02:57,356 --> 00:03:00,356 Speaker 1: I'm like speaking most for my own corner of the world, 40 00:03:00,396 --> 00:03:02,276 Speaker 1: because when we say business journalism, we can mean a 41 00:03:02,276 --> 00:03:05,756 Speaker 1: lot of different things, and one thing I don't do 42 00:03:05,876 --> 00:03:11,636 Speaker 1: an entrepreneur is run deep investigative pieces that are gonna 43 00:03:11,796 --> 00:03:16,316 Speaker 1: uncover bad deeds from CEOs and so on, because that's 44 00:03:16,356 --> 00:03:18,876 Speaker 1: just not our mission. Our mission is to support entrepreneurs. 45 00:03:18,876 --> 00:03:21,916 Speaker 1: And so in my world, what I see is an 46 00:03:22,316 --> 00:03:28,316 Speaker 1: unbelievable explosion in interest and desire to be an entrepreneur 47 00:03:28,436 --> 00:03:31,796 Speaker 1: or to at least infuse your life with those kinds 48 00:03:31,876 --> 00:03:36,716 Speaker 1: of mindsets of taking control of your life and building 49 00:03:36,756 --> 00:03:39,556 Speaker 1: something for your own and so on, and so there's 50 00:03:39,556 --> 00:03:42,276 Speaker 1: a lot of energy around that. I have often said, 51 00:03:42,396 --> 00:03:45,036 Speaker 1: as I've explained the media to friends, that I don't 52 00:03:45,036 --> 00:03:46,716 Speaker 1: know what on earth I would do if I was 53 00:03:46,796 --> 00:03:51,036 Speaker 1: running Time magazine, because it tries to reach so many people, 54 00:03:51,236 --> 00:03:53,756 Speaker 1: it has to be so many different things. But this 55 00:03:53,876 --> 00:03:58,036 Speaker 1: particular audience, business, entrepreneurship, there's a lot of energy. And 56 00:03:58,156 --> 00:04:01,636 Speaker 1: I don't think even though there's a million resources, enough 57 00:04:01,956 --> 00:04:04,316 Speaker 1: trusted resources, because there are a lot of people who 58 00:04:04,356 --> 00:04:06,996 Speaker 1: are out there trying to take advantage of your time 59 00:04:06,996 --> 00:04:10,316 Speaker 1: and money, and so to have a did brand that 60 00:04:10,396 --> 00:04:12,356 Speaker 1: people can turn to, I think still has a lot 61 00:04:12,396 --> 00:04:16,836 Speaker 1: of value even in a fractured media environment. Let's dig 62 00:04:16,876 --> 00:04:19,156 Speaker 1: deep a little bit on that, because it makes sense 63 00:04:19,156 --> 00:04:21,276 Speaker 1: to me to say that to be in a space 64 00:04:21,916 --> 00:04:24,716 Speaker 1: where the culture is bringing a lot of energy, right, 65 00:04:24,756 --> 00:04:26,436 Speaker 1: we are in a better or worse in a business 66 00:04:26,476 --> 00:04:30,036 Speaker 1: culture where many of our heroes are people who started companies, 67 00:04:31,036 --> 00:04:34,516 Speaker 1: and in that sense, entrepreneurship is a kind of tremendous 68 00:04:34,716 --> 00:04:38,076 Speaker 1: cultural ideal. Yet if you think of say, you know, 69 00:04:38,196 --> 00:04:41,476 Speaker 1: fashion or glamour or luxury, that's also a space where 70 00:04:41,476 --> 00:04:44,556 Speaker 1: there's a lot of excitement and attraction in the culture. 71 00:04:44,956 --> 00:04:49,196 Speaker 1: And yet the big magazines that were the dominant players 72 00:04:49,476 --> 00:04:54,436 Speaker 1: in shaping our conception of that cultural movement are struggling 73 00:04:54,556 --> 00:04:58,756 Speaker 1: relative to where they once were. So does there feel 74 00:04:58,756 --> 00:05:02,156 Speaker 1: like there's something different to you about entrepreneurship at that 75 00:05:02,276 --> 00:05:05,316 Speaker 1: end of the business that makes us distinctive. Yeah, it's 76 00:05:05,316 --> 00:05:09,916 Speaker 1: a really interesting question. I think that we need to 77 00:05:09,956 --> 00:05:14,796 Speaker 1: put what I'm experiencing into a broader context, which is 78 00:05:14,836 --> 00:05:20,316 Speaker 1: to say, maybe thirty forty years ago, because that's how 79 00:05:20,316 --> 00:05:23,676 Speaker 1: long this brand has been around. The brand was a 80 00:05:23,716 --> 00:05:26,996 Speaker 1: singular voice in the world of entrepreneurship in a way 81 00:05:26,996 --> 00:05:28,956 Speaker 1: that it is not now. It simply can't be. There 82 00:05:28,956 --> 00:05:32,516 Speaker 1: are too many people, as you say, who are offering 83 00:05:32,836 --> 00:05:35,796 Speaker 1: the kinds of things that we offer, which is to say, 84 00:05:35,916 --> 00:05:39,316 Speaker 1: guidance on entrepreneurship and insider access to how people think 85 00:05:39,356 --> 00:05:42,716 Speaker 1: and all that stuff. And so what's our value proposition 86 00:05:42,796 --> 00:05:47,156 Speaker 1: now in a crowded world of those folks. Well, for one, 87 00:05:47,276 --> 00:05:51,876 Speaker 1: I think there's a I think that it's fair to 88 00:05:51,996 --> 00:05:56,556 Speaker 1: say that we live in an abundance world, which is 89 00:05:56,556 --> 00:06:00,396 Speaker 1: to say that just because somebody comes along and occupies 90 00:06:00,436 --> 00:06:02,196 Speaker 1: a space that you might be in doesn't mean that 91 00:06:02,236 --> 00:06:05,636 Speaker 1: you necessarily have to lose something. Instead, I think that 92 00:06:05,716 --> 00:06:09,876 Speaker 1: we have to think of a brand and an individual 93 00:06:10,476 --> 00:06:14,356 Speaker 1: as both being valuable and in a space that has 94 00:06:14,756 --> 00:06:18,556 Speaker 1: infinite expansion. I'm really unthreatened by and I know that 95 00:06:18,596 --> 00:06:20,596 Speaker 1: we'll get into this a little bit later, but you know, 96 00:06:20,676 --> 00:06:25,236 Speaker 1: I'm unthreatened by the fracturing of a media environment. I'm 97 00:06:25,356 --> 00:06:29,756 Speaker 1: unthreatened by not being the sole authoritative voice in a space. 98 00:06:30,236 --> 00:06:32,916 Speaker 1: I think that as long as you have an understanding 99 00:06:33,036 --> 00:06:36,196 Speaker 1: of what kind of value you can bring that maybe 100 00:06:36,196 --> 00:06:40,196 Speaker 1: others don't, that you still have a place in their lives. 101 00:06:41,076 --> 00:06:43,476 Speaker 1: Let me ask what I hope it's a foundational question 102 00:06:43,516 --> 00:06:46,756 Speaker 1: and if it has a tinge of kind of curious skepticism. 103 00:06:46,796 --> 00:06:50,316 Speaker 1: That's okay. Sure, you use the word brand a few 104 00:06:50,356 --> 00:06:53,396 Speaker 1: times describe entrepreneur, and that makes perfect sense, both in 105 00:06:53,396 --> 00:06:55,596 Speaker 1: the concrete it's a business and it's a business that's 106 00:06:55,716 --> 00:06:58,956 Speaker 1: setting out to make profit, and also in the sense 107 00:06:59,036 --> 00:07:01,436 Speaker 1: that any entity can be thought of as a brand 108 00:07:01,476 --> 00:07:04,076 Speaker 1: in some sense. That said, when you were describing the brand, 109 00:07:04,116 --> 00:07:06,076 Speaker 1: you were also saying, look, there's certain kinds of journalism 110 00:07:06,156 --> 00:07:08,876 Speaker 1: we don't do. We're not trying to do the investigative 111 00:07:08,916 --> 00:07:12,916 Speaker 1: journim to find distortions or frauds. And you also said 112 00:07:12,916 --> 00:07:14,676 Speaker 1: that you have a kind of mission driven vision that 113 00:07:14,676 --> 00:07:18,676 Speaker 1: you're supportive of people who are entrepreneurs. Is it possible 114 00:07:18,676 --> 00:07:22,356 Speaker 1: that that's the model that's capable of existing in the 115 00:07:22,396 --> 00:07:27,036 Speaker 1: media world today, And is there something worrisommer or devastating 116 00:07:27,076 --> 00:07:30,836 Speaker 1: about that that, namely that a media business that says, look, 117 00:07:30,876 --> 00:07:33,116 Speaker 1: this is our mission. We're helping these folks. We stand 118 00:07:33,116 --> 00:07:36,316 Speaker 1: behind this set of beliefs and values. We're not trying to, 119 00:07:36,916 --> 00:07:40,956 Speaker 1: in some neutral or objective way, describe the ends and 120 00:07:40,996 --> 00:07:43,236 Speaker 1: the outs and the goods and the bads to the world. 121 00:07:43,276 --> 00:07:47,396 Speaker 1: And if if that's right, shouldn't we be worried about 122 00:07:47,396 --> 00:07:49,476 Speaker 1: that with respect to media power, because won't let mean 123 00:07:49,516 --> 00:07:52,796 Speaker 1: that more and more media will gravitate towards that kind 124 00:07:52,836 --> 00:07:56,396 Speaker 1: of brand oriented, mission oriented work rather than trying to 125 00:07:56,436 --> 00:07:59,876 Speaker 1: explain the world to us. So this is a really 126 00:07:59,916 --> 00:08:04,556 Speaker 1: wonderful question and really insightful. And again, I can only 127 00:08:04,556 --> 00:08:07,316 Speaker 1: speak for myself and my own views and experiences here, 128 00:08:07,356 --> 00:08:12,476 Speaker 1: but I think that we do ourselves a disservice. And 129 00:08:12,516 --> 00:08:15,996 Speaker 1: I'm speaking we generally, the people who think about things 130 00:08:16,196 --> 00:08:19,676 Speaker 1: when we try to create simple narratives out of chaos. 131 00:08:20,196 --> 00:08:28,316 Speaker 1: And I don't worry that just because a brand like 132 00:08:28,556 --> 00:08:33,116 Speaker 1: Entrepreneur is doing well. And again, I just very very 133 00:08:33,156 --> 00:08:36,036 Speaker 1: open about what we do and what we don't do. 134 00:08:36,396 --> 00:08:39,276 Speaker 1: We're not the New York Times Business Section, we're not 135 00:08:39,356 --> 00:08:45,556 Speaker 1: Bloomberg BusinessWeek. We serve entrepreneurs and we champion entrepreneurs. It's 136 00:08:45,556 --> 00:08:49,476 Speaker 1: a totally different thing. But just because this does well 137 00:08:49,556 --> 00:08:53,116 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that the opposite can't do well too. And 138 00:08:53,396 --> 00:08:55,996 Speaker 1: we also should be mindful that the way that we 139 00:08:56,076 --> 00:08:59,396 Speaker 1: think of the media today is not some timeless thing, 140 00:08:59,476 --> 00:09:02,716 Speaker 1: but it's actually a fairly new thing. I mean, if 141 00:09:02,716 --> 00:09:05,996 Speaker 1: you're rewind to what media looked like in America and 142 00:09:06,116 --> 00:09:09,196 Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds. It doesn't look anything like what we 143 00:09:09,476 --> 00:09:13,916 Speaker 1: are worried we're losing now with a handful of authoritative 144 00:09:13,956 --> 00:09:20,756 Speaker 1: and objective enterprises that try to separate truth from fiction 145 00:09:20,876 --> 00:09:23,556 Speaker 1: and call the shots that that that's a that's a 146 00:09:23,596 --> 00:09:27,876 Speaker 1: new thing. So let's not think that just because something 147 00:09:27,996 --> 00:09:30,796 Speaker 1: exists now, it needs to exist in the way that 148 00:09:30,836 --> 00:09:33,916 Speaker 1: we're familiar with it forever and ever, because it didn't 149 00:09:34,036 --> 00:09:37,836 Speaker 1: exist forever and ever. So that's not to discount the 150 00:09:37,996 --> 00:09:40,916 Speaker 1: real importance, of course, of that kind of journalism. It's 151 00:09:40,996 --> 00:09:46,236 Speaker 1: exceptionally valuable. I just don't worry about its existence in 152 00:09:46,276 --> 00:09:50,876 Speaker 1: a changing media environment because we are we are the 153 00:09:50,916 --> 00:09:55,756 Speaker 1: products of change. We're constantly seeing change. And I think 154 00:09:55,756 --> 00:09:59,036 Speaker 1: that we often make this mistake of thinking that just 155 00:09:59,156 --> 00:10:02,756 Speaker 1: because something exists in the form that we're familiar with it, 156 00:10:03,476 --> 00:10:05,636 Speaker 1: that that's the best form that it could ever take, 157 00:10:06,276 --> 00:10:10,956 Speaker 1: and that any shift in that form is somehow unprecedented, 158 00:10:11,516 --> 00:10:14,676 Speaker 1: because that's not the case. So yes, I think that 159 00:10:14,676 --> 00:10:17,036 Speaker 1: it's a good thing that entrepreneur thrives. I think that 160 00:10:17,076 --> 00:10:23,036 Speaker 1: it's a good thing that brands and media organizations that 161 00:10:23,156 --> 00:10:26,196 Speaker 1: do quite the opposite of us also thrive. And I 162 00:10:26,236 --> 00:10:30,676 Speaker 1: think that both are and will be disrupted. And I 163 00:10:30,716 --> 00:10:35,916 Speaker 1: think that's also fine because new forms of serving what 164 00:10:35,956 --> 00:10:41,476 Speaker 1: those brands do, which could be either supporting industries or 165 00:10:41,516 --> 00:10:47,196 Speaker 1: supporting people on individual levels, or holding power to account, 166 00:10:47,236 --> 00:10:50,196 Speaker 1: which is an exceptionally important thing, is something that people 167 00:10:50,236 --> 00:10:53,516 Speaker 1: will know how, they'll find ways to do it, even 168 00:10:53,556 --> 00:10:57,196 Speaker 1: if the economies of media as we know it shift 169 00:10:57,236 --> 00:11:01,316 Speaker 1: and maybe even die. It's just it's happened enough times 170 00:11:01,316 --> 00:11:03,396 Speaker 1: before that I just don't think that we can say 171 00:11:03,836 --> 00:11:06,356 Speaker 1: our time will be different. Our time is never different. 172 00:11:06,556 --> 00:11:08,676 Speaker 1: So let me push back a little bit on that. Sure, 173 00:11:09,196 --> 00:11:13,156 Speaker 1: the background music of what you're saying is the language 174 00:11:13,316 --> 00:11:17,956 Speaker 1: of I would call it creative destruction. Within capitalism, things 175 00:11:17,956 --> 00:11:21,036 Speaker 1: are changing, they're evolving their new opportunities, and that makes 176 00:11:21,036 --> 00:11:24,236 Speaker 1: a lot of sense, especially given that entrepreneur has a 177 00:11:24,316 --> 00:11:29,436 Speaker 1: history of being associated with small businesses, scrappy startups, the 178 00:11:29,476 --> 00:11:32,516 Speaker 1: little guy who are after all, almost always interested in 179 00:11:32,676 --> 00:11:36,756 Speaker 1: trying to change things and disrupt and bring about new results. 180 00:11:37,356 --> 00:11:40,156 Speaker 1: But there is a powerful argument out there that says 181 00:11:40,196 --> 00:11:44,356 Speaker 1: what's distinctive about our moment is just how enormously powerful 182 00:11:45,436 --> 00:11:51,276 Speaker 1: the near monopolists out there are. The Amazons, the alphabets, 183 00:11:51,596 --> 00:11:55,476 Speaker 1: the facebooks, and that argument sometimes comes with a title 184 00:11:55,556 --> 00:11:58,316 Speaker 1: the Curse of bigness. It's actually an idea that comes 185 00:11:58,316 --> 00:12:01,636 Speaker 1: from Louis Brandeis and from progressive antitrust legislation more than 186 00:12:01,636 --> 00:12:04,196 Speaker 1: a century ago. But it was used recently by Tim 187 00:12:04,196 --> 00:12:07,036 Speaker 1: wu who's a professor at Columbia who's become Joe Biden's 188 00:12:07,036 --> 00:12:10,596 Speaker 1: special advisor on antitrust. And you know, broadly speaking, the 189 00:12:10,956 --> 00:12:16,396 Speaker 1: view is that all that good stuff change, evolution is 190 00:12:16,396 --> 00:12:20,316 Speaker 1: being blocked in the current moment. When you think about 191 00:12:20,436 --> 00:12:24,436 Speaker 1: the mission for entrepreneur, how do you think about the 192 00:12:24,516 --> 00:12:29,196 Speaker 1: big mega companies, which on one view, are actually a 193 00:12:29,276 --> 00:12:35,876 Speaker 1: bad thing for your smaller mission driven people. I don't know. 194 00:12:35,916 --> 00:12:38,716 Speaker 1: I mean, if you rewind only a couple decades ago, 195 00:12:38,796 --> 00:12:41,596 Speaker 1: you find all these stories about how Yahoo will never 196 00:12:41,676 --> 00:12:46,396 Speaker 1: be defeated and Nokia will own smartphones forever, and because 197 00:12:46,556 --> 00:12:50,996 Speaker 1: Amazon has put such a dent in Walmart, and you 198 00:12:50,996 --> 00:12:54,636 Speaker 1: can rewind all the way back to A and P Supermarkets, 199 00:12:54,636 --> 00:12:56,876 Speaker 1: the very first supermarket chain, and who how could that 200 00:12:56,916 --> 00:13:00,036 Speaker 1: ever be defeated? And you know, like we were constantly 201 00:13:00,116 --> 00:13:03,756 Speaker 1: I think having this narrative in American culture that that 202 00:13:03,916 --> 00:13:08,236 Speaker 1: bigness is permanent. Whatever new thing we're seeing couldn't possibly 203 00:13:08,276 --> 00:13:10,476 Speaker 1: be displaced, and then over and over again it is. 204 00:13:11,036 --> 00:13:15,916 Speaker 1: And you're right, of course that people small businesses must 205 00:13:16,116 --> 00:13:20,876 Speaker 1: use Facebook. They must use it. It's impossible not to. 206 00:13:22,516 --> 00:13:27,316 Speaker 1: They also find it pretty useful, and I think are 207 00:13:27,796 --> 00:13:30,636 Speaker 1: also finding lots of other ways to reach people that 208 00:13:31,156 --> 00:13:33,796 Speaker 1: aren't on Facebook. I think you work with what you've got. 209 00:13:34,356 --> 00:13:37,676 Speaker 1: I think that when I look at entrepreneurs, I find, 210 00:13:37,676 --> 00:13:40,916 Speaker 1: first of all, quite a lot of fascination. Interestingly among 211 00:13:41,796 --> 00:13:46,556 Speaker 1: entrepreneurs of big players. People want to know about Jeff Bezos. 212 00:13:46,556 --> 00:13:48,596 Speaker 1: They want to know about Elon Musk. I mean at 213 00:13:48,676 --> 00:13:52,396 Speaker 1: entrepreneur dot com right now. I mean if Elon Musk 214 00:13:52,636 --> 00:13:55,196 Speaker 1: farts in the woods and we ran a headline Elon 215 00:13:55,276 --> 00:13:57,036 Speaker 1: Musk farts in the Woods, it would get like three 216 00:13:57,076 --> 00:14:00,756 Speaker 1: million views. And people are fascinated by these people because 217 00:14:01,196 --> 00:14:08,076 Speaker 1: they built something extraordinary, and they are savvy, and they 218 00:14:08,116 --> 00:14:11,676 Speaker 1: are sometimes is quite ruthless. And it's not to say 219 00:14:11,716 --> 00:14:15,356 Speaker 1: that their business practices are always to be celebrated, because 220 00:14:15,356 --> 00:14:19,556 Speaker 1: they certainly are not. I ultimately come down on the 221 00:14:19,636 --> 00:14:24,796 Speaker 1: side of it's worth figuring out where the opportunities are 222 00:14:24,876 --> 00:14:30,476 Speaker 1: and where the opportunities aren't, both in coverage and being 223 00:14:30,516 --> 00:14:33,756 Speaker 1: an entrepreneur who's trying to live and build in a 224 00:14:33,836 --> 00:14:38,196 Speaker 1: world that has large competitors. And what you will find 225 00:14:38,636 --> 00:14:44,156 Speaker 1: if you talk to entrepreneurs is that they do not 226 00:14:44,316 --> 00:14:49,636 Speaker 1: sit there wringing their hands over that there is a 227 00:14:49,676 --> 00:14:52,356 Speaker 1: giant competitor in a space. Instead, what they tend to 228 00:14:52,396 --> 00:14:56,356 Speaker 1: do is think, well, what is this competitor missing and 229 00:14:56,756 --> 00:15:00,316 Speaker 1: what kind of white space is available? Because this competitor 230 00:15:01,036 --> 00:15:04,076 Speaker 1: fast in some ways, though they may be are slow 231 00:15:04,116 --> 00:15:07,916 Speaker 1: in other ways. And this is why people aren't afraid 232 00:15:07,956 --> 00:15:14,156 Speaker 1: of trying to establish new social networks and new search engines. 233 00:15:14,236 --> 00:15:16,196 Speaker 1: And that's not to say any of these are necessarily 234 00:15:16,236 --> 00:15:19,196 Speaker 1: going to topple Facebook or Google, but I don't know 235 00:15:19,236 --> 00:15:21,116 Speaker 1: that that has to be the goal. The goal is 236 00:15:21,156 --> 00:15:24,836 Speaker 1: can you build something new and innovative that's going to 237 00:15:24,876 --> 00:15:29,556 Speaker 1: solve a problem that in existing incumbent does not And 238 00:15:29,596 --> 00:15:32,476 Speaker 1: I think the opportunity is there to do that. You're 239 00:15:32,476 --> 00:15:36,636 Speaker 1: saying something that's really fascinating me, So go back for 240 00:15:36,676 --> 00:15:38,956 Speaker 1: a moment to this policy debate that's being fought out 241 00:15:39,076 --> 00:15:41,756 Speaker 1: between the Biden administration and others, and that's going to 242 00:15:41,796 --> 00:15:43,996 Speaker 1: be thought over the next few years in the courts 243 00:15:44,076 --> 00:15:48,956 Speaker 1: about bigness at about competition. You know, one of the 244 00:15:48,996 --> 00:15:51,836 Speaker 1: things that the innovative thinkers like Timu, like Lena Khan, 245 00:15:51,916 --> 00:15:55,116 Speaker 1: who's now become the chairperson of the FDC, have been 246 00:15:55,196 --> 00:15:58,476 Speaker 1: arguing is that although it's not so obvious how individual 247 00:15:58,516 --> 00:16:03,876 Speaker 1: consumers are harmed by bigness, nevertheless there is somebody who's 248 00:16:03,916 --> 00:16:07,276 Speaker 1: really affected by it, and it's the smaller firms that 249 00:16:07,316 --> 00:16:10,036 Speaker 1: would want to rise up and compete, and we should 250 00:16:10,076 --> 00:16:12,076 Speaker 1: be really worried about that because without those in the 251 00:16:12,116 --> 00:16:14,956 Speaker 1: long run, things really will be worse off for consumers. 252 00:16:14,956 --> 00:16:17,116 Speaker 1: And that's sort of one of their back to the 253 00:16:17,116 --> 00:16:20,316 Speaker 1: future kinds of arguments that they're trying to make. If 254 00:16:20,356 --> 00:16:23,396 Speaker 1: I hear you correctly, it sounds like, at least speaking 255 00:16:23,396 --> 00:16:26,476 Speaker 1: in a general way, for this constituency of small business owners, 256 00:16:27,076 --> 00:16:29,556 Speaker 1: that they're not so worried about in your account, they're 257 00:16:29,596 --> 00:16:31,676 Speaker 1: not so worried at least at a collective level about it. 258 00:16:31,676 --> 00:16:34,156 Speaker 1: It's not the thing that that preoccupies them. And indeed, 259 00:16:34,156 --> 00:16:36,956 Speaker 1: if you put up coverage that's interested in the big 260 00:16:36,996 --> 00:16:39,796 Speaker 1: successful people who started companies, you're saying, you get a 261 00:16:39,796 --> 00:16:42,876 Speaker 1: lot of reaction and probably most of it adulatory, you know, 262 00:16:42,916 --> 00:16:46,556 Speaker 1: positive in some general sense. So if that's so, that 263 00:16:46,636 --> 00:16:49,236 Speaker 1: means that the case the Timu that Lena Khan that 264 00:16:49,236 --> 00:16:51,836 Speaker 1: the Biden administration are trying to make, it's actually an 265 00:16:51,836 --> 00:16:54,556 Speaker 1: even harder case to make than they present it as being. 266 00:16:55,276 --> 00:16:58,596 Speaker 1: If the constituency that they say is being harmed small 267 00:16:58,636 --> 00:17:02,956 Speaker 1: business is actually not so upset or doesn't really imagine 268 00:17:02,956 --> 00:17:05,836 Speaker 1: itself as thinking of itself is harmed. And just to 269 00:17:05,876 --> 00:17:07,956 Speaker 1: follow onto that is, if they did. If your readers 270 00:17:07,956 --> 00:17:10,916 Speaker 1: and your constituents thought that they were being badly harmed 271 00:17:10,916 --> 00:17:13,196 Speaker 1: by this, I take it that would become an important 272 00:17:13,196 --> 00:17:15,476 Speaker 1: part of your coverage. Right If they thought an everyday 273 00:17:15,476 --> 00:17:18,076 Speaker 1: basis that something was making their lives difficult or miserable, 274 00:17:18,316 --> 00:17:20,076 Speaker 1: I assume they would want to want to read about it, 275 00:17:20,076 --> 00:17:23,156 Speaker 1: and they'd want you to cover it. I really appreciate 276 00:17:23,196 --> 00:17:26,036 Speaker 1: that observation. So a couple of things here. Number One, 277 00:17:28,396 --> 00:17:32,956 Speaker 1: Entrepreneurs are kinds of people who like to look at 278 00:17:33,036 --> 00:17:35,396 Speaker 1: what's available and what other people aren't thinking about, and 279 00:17:35,436 --> 00:17:37,276 Speaker 1: then move forward. What they don't do is sit on 280 00:17:37,316 --> 00:17:39,996 Speaker 1: the sidelines and grumble about the things that are in 281 00:17:40,076 --> 00:17:42,756 Speaker 1: their way. It's not the thing that's on the top 282 00:17:42,796 --> 00:17:47,076 Speaker 1: of their mind. They are thinking about how they can 283 00:17:47,196 --> 00:17:52,116 Speaker 1: spot opportunity that other people haven't, and they see these 284 00:17:52,356 --> 00:17:57,956 Speaker 1: giant companies as at once instructive. They're very interested in 285 00:17:57,996 --> 00:18:02,796 Speaker 1: what exceptionally successful founders have done and how they operate, 286 00:18:03,076 --> 00:18:05,556 Speaker 1: because there are things to learn from them. But then 287 00:18:05,596 --> 00:18:10,156 Speaker 1: they also are looking around for ways that they could 288 00:18:10,596 --> 00:18:15,396 Speaker 1: build something utilizing opportunities that are created by these incumbents. 289 00:18:15,436 --> 00:18:18,316 Speaker 1: I mean, how many businesses have been built on Instagram. 290 00:18:19,316 --> 00:18:22,476 Speaker 1: I mean it's countless. I mean, look, this is like 291 00:18:22,556 --> 00:18:24,596 Speaker 1: a This is just going to zoom far off, but 292 00:18:24,636 --> 00:18:26,036 Speaker 1: I promise I'm going to bring it back. I just 293 00:18:26,076 --> 00:18:27,996 Speaker 1: want to tell you this little story that I'm obsessed with, 294 00:18:28,076 --> 00:18:31,876 Speaker 1: and it's about the dawn of the phonograph. So the 295 00:18:31,876 --> 00:18:34,636 Speaker 1: phonograph comes along and it is the very first time 296 00:18:34,716 --> 00:18:38,276 Speaker 1: that anybody ever can hear recorded music. I mean, just 297 00:18:38,316 --> 00:18:43,236 Speaker 1: think about the massive change that that represents. So before that, 298 00:18:43,716 --> 00:18:45,396 Speaker 1: through all of human history, the only time that you 299 00:18:45,436 --> 00:18:49,116 Speaker 1: could ever hear music is if somebody is literally playing 300 00:18:49,156 --> 00:18:51,276 Speaker 1: an instrument in front of you, the only way. And 301 00:18:51,276 --> 00:18:53,916 Speaker 1: then suddenly this machine comes along, and this new industry 302 00:18:53,916 --> 00:18:56,756 Speaker 1: comes along, and it proposes a completely different way of 303 00:18:56,796 --> 00:19:00,436 Speaker 1: experiencing this music, and all of the musicians of the time, 304 00:19:00,516 --> 00:19:04,716 Speaker 1: high profile musicians at the time, are absolutely furious about this. 305 00:19:04,836 --> 00:19:07,436 Speaker 1: John Philip Souza, who of course we know now is 306 00:19:07,476 --> 00:19:11,836 Speaker 1: the composer of all our fam marchesa, that's John Phillips, 307 00:19:12,276 --> 00:19:16,276 Speaker 1: John Philip Susa, is writing screeds against recorded music. He 308 00:19:16,316 --> 00:19:18,356 Speaker 1: makes one of his arguments, which I love the most 309 00:19:18,396 --> 00:19:21,116 Speaker 1: because it's just so insane, was he would say, recorded 310 00:19:21,236 --> 00:19:23,556 Speaker 1: music will enter the home. When it enters the home, 311 00:19:24,356 --> 00:19:27,436 Speaker 1: it will replace all forms of live music, because of course, 312 00:19:27,556 --> 00:19:31,196 Speaker 1: why would you perform live music when instead you could 313 00:19:31,236 --> 00:19:34,076 Speaker 1: just hit a button and hear it out of a machine. 314 00:19:34,556 --> 00:19:37,636 Speaker 1: And now, because of that, mothers will no longer sink 315 00:19:37,636 --> 00:19:40,676 Speaker 1: to their children. And because children grow up imitating their mothers, 316 00:19:40,676 --> 00:19:42,716 Speaker 1: that children will grow up imitating the machines. And thus 317 00:19:42,716 --> 00:19:45,196 Speaker 1: we will create a generation of machine babies. And so 318 00:19:45,276 --> 00:19:47,756 Speaker 1: he and his musicians and the musicians unions of the 319 00:19:47,756 --> 00:19:51,796 Speaker 1: time were very, very concerned and upset about this new industry. 320 00:19:51,836 --> 00:19:55,876 Speaker 1: They felt like it was displacing them. Now what did 321 00:19:55,916 --> 00:19:59,996 Speaker 1: we learn, you know, one hundred years later, I'll tell 322 00:19:59,996 --> 00:20:02,276 Speaker 1: you what we learned. What we learned was that actually 323 00:20:02,356 --> 00:20:06,436 Speaker 1: this gigantic shift, though it seemed to dominate, did not 324 00:20:06,556 --> 00:20:09,596 Speaker 1: actually dominate. What it did was it created a million 325 00:20:09,676 --> 00:20:13,796 Speaker 1: new opportunities. Find a studio engineer and they can thank 326 00:20:13,956 --> 00:20:16,316 Speaker 1: the phonograph for their job. There was a job that 327 00:20:16,356 --> 00:20:18,676 Speaker 1: didn't exist before that. And this, I think is how 328 00:20:18,796 --> 00:20:21,996 Speaker 1: entrepreneurs think. They see a long game. They think about 329 00:20:22,116 --> 00:20:25,796 Speaker 1: how new things don't just gobble everything up, They in 330 00:20:25,836 --> 00:20:29,476 Speaker 1: fact shift the environment, they fracture, they create new opportunities 331 00:20:29,476 --> 00:20:32,956 Speaker 1: where there weren't before. And so I'm honestly not very 332 00:20:32,956 --> 00:20:38,436 Speaker 1: compelled or concerned by the antitrust conversations, which I would 333 00:20:38,436 --> 00:20:40,396 Speaker 1: not propose to be an expert about at all. But 334 00:20:40,476 --> 00:20:42,276 Speaker 1: I can tell you that on the ground level, as 335 00:20:42,396 --> 00:20:44,836 Speaker 1: entrepreneurs are talking about building their businesses, the thing that 336 00:20:44,876 --> 00:20:48,356 Speaker 1: they're not obsessed about is how a handful of giant 337 00:20:48,396 --> 00:20:51,276 Speaker 1: companies are stopping them from coming up with great ideas 338 00:20:51,316 --> 00:20:53,796 Speaker 1: and building something new. It's it's just not what I hear. 339 00:20:55,636 --> 00:21:08,156 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. You've alluded to a distinction between 340 00:21:08,196 --> 00:21:11,356 Speaker 1: what's sometimes called a hard journalism, you know, exemplified by 341 00:21:11,396 --> 00:21:14,996 Speaker 1: the big newspapers, maybe at one time by the network 342 00:21:15,036 --> 00:21:19,876 Speaker 1: news shows and by implication, software journalism, journalism that in 343 00:21:19,916 --> 00:21:22,636 Speaker 1: some way is allied with an industry and is self 344 00:21:22,636 --> 00:21:25,636 Speaker 1: consciously supportive of it. I think for those of us 345 00:21:25,636 --> 00:21:27,636 Speaker 1: who are not connected to the journalism industry, and I 346 00:21:27,716 --> 00:21:29,996 Speaker 1: am perfectly connected to it, so I do follow this 347 00:21:29,996 --> 00:21:32,796 Speaker 1: a little bit. But for most people who aren't, we 348 00:21:32,876 --> 00:21:36,516 Speaker 1: don't know much about the thought world, the power structures, 349 00:21:36,556 --> 00:21:39,436 Speaker 1: or the operation of the so called software journalism. There 350 00:21:39,436 --> 00:21:41,876 Speaker 1: are no movies about it, you know, all The President's 351 00:21:41,916 --> 00:21:45,076 Speaker 1: Men is not about a software journalism entity. Would you 352 00:21:45,156 --> 00:21:48,156 Speaker 1: say a little bit for the interested and open minded 353 00:21:48,156 --> 00:21:52,836 Speaker 1: listener of what is the business structure of software journalism? 354 00:21:52,956 --> 00:21:55,396 Speaker 1: Do you think of yourselves as in a different relationship 355 00:21:55,996 --> 00:22:01,916 Speaker 1: to your subject, to your advertisers? How would you conceptualize that? 356 00:22:01,956 --> 00:22:03,756 Speaker 1: And I wouldn't have introduced the distinction at all if 357 00:22:03,796 --> 00:22:06,636 Speaker 1: you hadn't introduced it. No, it's fine. I'm totally comfortable 358 00:22:06,676 --> 00:22:10,876 Speaker 1: with it because it's been a shift for me and 359 00:22:11,356 --> 00:22:16,276 Speaker 1: I enjoy it. Though it should be noted I come 360 00:22:16,316 --> 00:22:19,596 Speaker 1: from a harder journalism background. I started in daily newspapers 361 00:22:19,596 --> 00:22:22,436 Speaker 1: and this is ultimately where I landed, and I love it, 362 00:22:22,596 --> 00:22:25,236 Speaker 1: but I also want to be really wide eyed and 363 00:22:25,316 --> 00:22:28,796 Speaker 1: open that I'm I'm not the guy doing deep investigations. 364 00:22:28,956 --> 00:22:30,956 Speaker 1: I'm glad somebody else is doing it, but it's not me. 365 00:22:31,556 --> 00:22:33,236 Speaker 1: So yeah, sure, let me tell you about it. Yeah, 366 00:22:33,276 --> 00:22:34,996 Speaker 1: tell us about it, and tell us how power works 367 00:22:34,996 --> 00:22:36,996 Speaker 1: in it relative to how we at least imagine it 368 00:22:36,996 --> 00:22:40,156 Speaker 1: works in harder journalism, right right, Okay, let me tell 369 00:22:40,156 --> 00:22:42,996 Speaker 1: you a little quick story. When I became editor in 370 00:22:43,036 --> 00:22:48,116 Speaker 1: chief of Entrepreneur magazine, I started getting interview requests and 371 00:22:48,196 --> 00:22:51,956 Speaker 1: I said yes, and then people would introduce me in 372 00:22:51,996 --> 00:22:55,436 Speaker 1: this really interesting way. They would have me on their show. 373 00:22:55,476 --> 00:22:57,596 Speaker 1: And you know, generally speaking, I'm talking about there's like 374 00:22:57,596 --> 00:23:02,596 Speaker 1: a billion podcasts about entrepreneurship and these kinds of things, 375 00:23:03,116 --> 00:23:05,396 Speaker 1: and I'd be saying yes to this stuff first, and 376 00:23:05,596 --> 00:23:07,276 Speaker 1: so somebody would have me on and they would say, 377 00:23:07,316 --> 00:23:09,676 Speaker 1: we're so excited to have Jason five, a thought leader 378 00:23:09,676 --> 00:23:11,516 Speaker 1: an entrepreneurship here we're gonna be talking about. And I 379 00:23:11,556 --> 00:23:13,956 Speaker 1: would say, WHOA hold on a second. You know, I 380 00:23:13,956 --> 00:23:16,836 Speaker 1: don't consider myself a thought leader. I consider myself a journalist. 381 00:23:17,036 --> 00:23:21,036 Speaker 1: I'm a storyteller and my job is to find information. 382 00:23:21,196 --> 00:23:24,956 Speaker 1: And I found that they had no idea what I 383 00:23:24,996 --> 00:23:28,596 Speaker 1: was talking about and it was killing the vibe. It 384 00:23:28,676 --> 00:23:33,756 Speaker 1: was like falling downstairs, right, and leader in that and anyway, 385 00:23:33,916 --> 00:23:35,996 Speaker 1: in the world of self promotion, there's no such thing 386 00:23:36,036 --> 00:23:38,036 Speaker 1: as anyone who's not a thought leader. If you're breathing, 387 00:23:38,076 --> 00:23:40,156 Speaker 1: you're a thought leader. Well that's right. And I mean, 388 00:23:40,196 --> 00:23:42,236 Speaker 1: I was telling my wife about this problem. How do 389 00:23:42,276 --> 00:23:44,076 Speaker 1: I what do I do here? Because I'm like, I'm 390 00:23:44,196 --> 00:23:46,316 Speaker 1: destroying the reason that these people are having me on 391 00:23:46,356 --> 00:23:48,756 Speaker 1: their show. And she said, if they want you to 392 00:23:48,796 --> 00:23:50,476 Speaker 1: be a thought leader, just be a thought leader. And 393 00:23:50,516 --> 00:23:52,356 Speaker 1: I realized that the difference between a thought leader and 394 00:23:52,356 --> 00:23:53,876 Speaker 1: not a thought leaders that the thought leader is willing 395 00:23:53,876 --> 00:23:56,196 Speaker 1: to call themselves a thought leader. That's literally the only distinction. 396 00:23:56,236 --> 00:23:59,596 Speaker 1: And so I started to try to understand what people 397 00:23:59,676 --> 00:24:03,516 Speaker 1: understood of me. And that was a really interesting experience 398 00:24:03,636 --> 00:24:06,436 Speaker 1: because look, prior to that, when I was a journey 399 00:24:06,436 --> 00:24:09,036 Speaker 1: when I was a pure journalist, when I was covering 400 00:24:09,236 --> 00:24:13,196 Speaker 1: city council meetings for local newspapers. You know, I'd walk 401 00:24:13,236 --> 00:24:15,756 Speaker 1: in and everyone would sit up because now they know 402 00:24:15,796 --> 00:24:17,716 Speaker 1: they're on the record and whatever they say could end 403 00:24:17,756 --> 00:24:20,436 Speaker 1: up in the paper. And my job is and people 404 00:24:20,436 --> 00:24:26,116 Speaker 1: were understanding me different at entrepreneur, and I started to 405 00:24:26,116 --> 00:24:29,996 Speaker 1: listen to the questions that they were asking me. What 406 00:24:30,036 --> 00:24:34,036 Speaker 1: they primarily were asking me was some version of what 407 00:24:34,116 --> 00:24:37,796 Speaker 1: are the qualities of a successful entrepreneur? And I came 408 00:24:37,796 --> 00:24:40,476 Speaker 1: to this interesting philosophy, which is that when you listen 409 00:24:40,516 --> 00:24:43,316 Speaker 1: to the questions that people ask you, what you're actually 410 00:24:43,316 --> 00:24:46,236 Speaker 1: hearing is them telling you what they think your value 411 00:24:46,276 --> 00:24:49,556 Speaker 1: is to them. And so I was like, well, first 412 00:24:49,556 --> 00:24:50,996 Speaker 1: of all, I need an answer to this question, because 413 00:24:50,996 --> 00:24:53,676 Speaker 1: they keep asking me the question. But then also this 414 00:24:53,876 --> 00:24:56,476 Speaker 1: gives me insights into what they think I am. They 415 00:24:56,516 --> 00:24:58,996 Speaker 1: don't think of me as a journalist. What they think 416 00:24:59,036 --> 00:25:02,236 Speaker 1: of me is as like a like the super entrepreneur, 417 00:25:02,276 --> 00:25:04,796 Speaker 1: the entrepreneur who talks to all the entrepreneurs, who sits 418 00:25:04,796 --> 00:25:06,916 Speaker 1: in the middle and likes sees the patterns, and then 419 00:25:06,996 --> 00:25:09,956 Speaker 1: his job is to bring you the patterns. And I 420 00:25:09,956 --> 00:25:12,516 Speaker 1: realized that they they don't even understand me as a journalist. 421 00:25:12,756 --> 00:25:16,796 Speaker 1: And that was weird at first, and then ultimately fine. 422 00:25:17,076 --> 00:25:18,836 Speaker 1: And the reason for that is because I found that 423 00:25:18,876 --> 00:25:22,996 Speaker 1: I liked it. I liked relating to the audience, and 424 00:25:23,036 --> 00:25:28,996 Speaker 1: I liked supporting them. There's a deep skepticism that traditional 425 00:25:29,076 --> 00:25:32,356 Speaker 1: journalists bring to the sources that they cover and in 426 00:25:32,356 --> 00:25:35,356 Speaker 1: the industries that they cover. And what I ultimately discovered 427 00:25:35,396 --> 00:25:38,516 Speaker 1: about myself is that although I can summon that skepticism, 428 00:25:38,596 --> 00:25:42,436 Speaker 1: I'm a little happier without it. And so I started 429 00:25:42,516 --> 00:25:46,236 Speaker 1: to really lean into calling myself an entrepreneur and relating 430 00:25:46,276 --> 00:25:48,516 Speaker 1: to them and writing these motivates. I mean, if you 431 00:25:48,556 --> 00:25:51,796 Speaker 1: pick up my if you pick up the magazine, the 432 00:25:51,796 --> 00:25:54,116 Speaker 1: first thing that you'll read is this column that I write, 433 00:25:54,236 --> 00:25:56,356 Speaker 1: which you know, every other editor in chief uses their 434 00:25:56,596 --> 00:25:59,196 Speaker 1: editor's letter as like a table of contents and essay form. 435 00:25:59,276 --> 00:26:01,796 Speaker 1: But what I've done is turned it into this thing 436 00:26:01,836 --> 00:26:06,356 Speaker 1: where I share my own lessons and failures and the 437 00:26:06,436 --> 00:26:08,116 Speaker 1: lessons to draw from it. And I get it just 438 00:26:08,116 --> 00:26:10,476 Speaker 1: a tremendous response from So anyway, you ask about the 439 00:26:10,476 --> 00:26:12,436 Speaker 1: power structure of this thing and how this actually works, 440 00:26:12,436 --> 00:26:15,036 Speaker 1: and look, I mean, structurally, it's not all that different 441 00:26:15,076 --> 00:26:17,796 Speaker 1: from any other traditional journalism. There is a hard wall 442 00:26:17,836 --> 00:26:22,356 Speaker 1: between advertising and edit. You cannot buy edit in the magazine. 443 00:26:22,396 --> 00:26:25,396 Speaker 1: You cannot influence edit in the magazine and edit it 444 00:26:26,236 --> 00:26:28,716 Speaker 1: for the listeners. Edited short for editorial there which is 445 00:26:28,716 --> 00:26:31,276 Speaker 1: itself a shorthand for the idea of articles that you 446 00:26:31,316 --> 00:26:34,276 Speaker 1: write as opposed to advertisements. That's right, thanks, yes, correct. 447 00:26:34,356 --> 00:26:37,876 Speaker 1: So we I assign short and long stories to professional 448 00:26:37,956 --> 00:26:40,396 Speaker 1: journalists and they go out and they report those stories. 449 00:26:40,556 --> 00:26:45,116 Speaker 1: But the instruction that I give them is the people 450 00:26:45,156 --> 00:26:48,356 Speaker 1: who are reading this are going to be entrepreneurs, and 451 00:26:48,476 --> 00:26:50,396 Speaker 1: their number one question when they sit down to read 452 00:26:50,436 --> 00:26:53,036 Speaker 1: this story is what is in it for me? What 453 00:26:53,276 --> 00:26:55,996 Speaker 1: can I learn that I can apply directly to my life? 454 00:26:55,996 --> 00:26:58,076 Speaker 1: For this, So, if you're going to report a story 455 00:26:58,116 --> 00:27:00,876 Speaker 1: about how somebody built this company or whatever's going on 456 00:27:00,956 --> 00:27:03,076 Speaker 1: in this world, that the number one question to be 457 00:27:03,116 --> 00:27:06,716 Speaker 1: answering all the time is how did this problem get solved? 458 00:27:06,756 --> 00:27:09,796 Speaker 1: How does this thing work? How can entrepreneurs learn from this? 459 00:27:09,956 --> 00:27:13,796 Speaker 1: That's the mission. And again, yes, an advertiser cannot buy 460 00:27:13,836 --> 00:27:16,796 Speaker 1: a story. They cannot influence a story. We function like 461 00:27:16,916 --> 00:27:25,236 Speaker 1: traditional journalism, but I probably do more than a I'm 462 00:27:25,356 --> 00:27:28,756 Speaker 1: not probably, I'm sure a hundred thousand times do more 463 00:27:28,796 --> 00:27:31,036 Speaker 1: than like somebody at the New York Times would do 464 00:27:31,116 --> 00:27:35,596 Speaker 1: to engage with an advertiser. So let's say, for example, LinkedIn. Recently, 465 00:27:36,236 --> 00:27:38,676 Speaker 1: we partnered with LinkedIn, as you know, their sponsor, and 466 00:27:38,876 --> 00:27:42,476 Speaker 1: part of that was that I moderated a clubhouse and 467 00:27:42,476 --> 00:27:44,516 Speaker 1: then I did a LinkedIn live talking about how to 468 00:27:44,556 --> 00:27:47,356 Speaker 1: build your brand on LinkedIn. Now that doesn't feel dirty 469 00:27:47,356 --> 00:27:48,796 Speaker 1: to me, and the reason for that is because I 470 00:27:48,836 --> 00:27:51,356 Speaker 1: know my audience is actually really interested in how to 471 00:27:51,356 --> 00:27:53,476 Speaker 1: build their brand on LinkedIn. It's a subject that they 472 00:27:53,476 --> 00:27:57,476 Speaker 1: care about, So it doesn't feel like I'm sacrificing anything 473 00:27:57,596 --> 00:27:59,956 Speaker 1: or that people will feel differently about me or the 474 00:27:59,996 --> 00:28:02,676 Speaker 1: brand in any way. If I'm the voice and face 475 00:28:02,796 --> 00:28:07,036 Speaker 1: of that conversation, I'm happy to do it. We sell ads, 476 00:28:07,156 --> 00:28:11,516 Speaker 1: we create products. You can literally book my time through 477 00:28:11,676 --> 00:28:14,676 Speaker 1: entrepreneur and I will give you advice on your business. 478 00:28:14,756 --> 00:28:17,676 Speaker 1: It's a service that we offer. I've come to realize 479 00:28:17,756 --> 00:28:21,156 Speaker 1: that the best that I can do for my job 480 00:28:21,236 --> 00:28:24,636 Speaker 1: and my audience is to be a blend for them 481 00:28:24,876 --> 00:28:31,636 Speaker 1: in which I take the skills and the methodology of journalism, 482 00:28:32,076 --> 00:28:35,356 Speaker 1: which is to say, go out, gather information, create a 483 00:28:35,396 --> 00:28:40,156 Speaker 1: coherent narrative that people can follow, and to have standards 484 00:28:40,796 --> 00:28:43,476 Speaker 1: that I think that somebody outside of journalism may not 485 00:28:43,676 --> 00:28:46,036 Speaker 1: know how to apply to this world. So for example, 486 00:28:46,036 --> 00:28:48,156 Speaker 1: why are we covering certain things? We don't want a 487 00:28:48,196 --> 00:28:52,956 Speaker 1: log roll for people, etc. But then also be mindful 488 00:28:53,276 --> 00:28:57,756 Speaker 1: that what the audience ultimately wants is not journalism, but 489 00:28:57,836 --> 00:29:02,196 Speaker 1: they want is help. And by delivering those two things, 490 00:29:03,476 --> 00:29:06,556 Speaker 1: we can call it soft journalism, sure, but what I 491 00:29:06,636 --> 00:29:09,076 Speaker 1: just think of it as value. I have an audience 492 00:29:09,236 --> 00:29:11,836 Speaker 1: and I'm providing value to them. Jason, I want to 493 00:29:11,836 --> 00:29:14,396 Speaker 1: come around to one of the places where your power 494 00:29:14,476 --> 00:29:16,476 Speaker 1: actually enables you to potentially do good. And I know 495 00:29:16,516 --> 00:29:19,516 Speaker 1: it's something that you focus on, and that is getting 496 00:29:20,036 --> 00:29:25,156 Speaker 1: diverse faces and voices into your magazine so as to 497 00:29:25,196 --> 00:29:29,916 Speaker 1: promote the greater diversification by sex, by race, by class, 498 00:29:29,956 --> 00:29:35,876 Speaker 1: across the full space of really of capitalism, of entrepreneurial capitalism. 499 00:29:35,996 --> 00:29:38,836 Speaker 1: That's obviously hard because we live in a world where 500 00:29:38,876 --> 00:29:41,236 Speaker 1: you're not in charge of capitalism and you're not in 501 00:29:41,316 --> 00:29:44,796 Speaker 1: charge of the allocation of capital. And for systemic and 502 00:29:44,836 --> 00:29:47,756 Speaker 1: structural reasons, it's harder to get access to capital and 503 00:29:47,756 --> 00:29:49,476 Speaker 1: start a business if you're a woman. It's harder to 504 00:29:49,516 --> 00:29:51,476 Speaker 1: get access to capital and start a business if you're 505 00:29:51,476 --> 00:29:54,676 Speaker 1: a person of color in the United States. And you're 506 00:29:54,716 --> 00:29:57,076 Speaker 1: not responsible for the fact that those things came into existence, 507 00:29:57,076 --> 00:29:58,756 Speaker 1: but it is part of your mission to try to 508 00:29:58,796 --> 00:30:01,796 Speaker 1: help make them better by coverage Yeah, how do you 509 00:30:01,836 --> 00:30:05,636 Speaker 1: think about that? How do you push forward and enable 510 00:30:05,716 --> 00:30:08,996 Speaker 1: there to be different faces and different voices given the 511 00:30:09,156 --> 00:30:14,556 Speaker 1: background conditions that already exist and make it much harder. Yeah, 512 00:30:14,076 --> 00:30:17,556 Speaker 1: it's an important question. I used to work a fast 513 00:30:17,596 --> 00:30:20,196 Speaker 1: company and the editor in chief at the time, a 514 00:30:20,196 --> 00:30:23,356 Speaker 1: guy named Bob Saffian, said this thing that I really 515 00:30:23,396 --> 00:30:26,076 Speaker 1: liked and that I've I've thought about a lot since, 516 00:30:26,396 --> 00:30:31,476 Speaker 1: which was our job is not to show business as 517 00:30:31,596 --> 00:30:34,916 Speaker 1: it is right now, necessarily, but to show where business 518 00:30:35,036 --> 00:30:37,556 Speaker 1: is going, what business looks like in the future. We 519 00:30:37,596 --> 00:30:41,996 Speaker 1: are to imagine a more diverse cast of players in business. 520 00:30:42,476 --> 00:30:44,036 Speaker 1: What does that look like? And let's make sure that 521 00:30:44,076 --> 00:30:48,116 Speaker 1: we're reflecting that. So on a practical level, what does 522 00:30:48,116 --> 00:30:50,636 Speaker 1: that look like? Well, I mean it literally looks like 523 00:30:51,196 --> 00:30:57,076 Speaker 1: us as a staff saying do we have enough diversity 524 00:30:57,116 --> 00:30:59,356 Speaker 1: in every issue? I mean, I don't know that I 525 00:30:59,356 --> 00:31:01,036 Speaker 1: should even be saying this aloud, but I don't know 526 00:31:01,076 --> 00:31:03,316 Speaker 1: how else to do it. So I'll just tell you 527 00:31:03,796 --> 00:31:07,476 Speaker 1: when we put together a package. So, a package, in 528 00:31:07,756 --> 00:31:11,916 Speaker 1: magazine parlance is a number of pages that are all 529 00:31:11,956 --> 00:31:14,396 Speaker 1: around the same theme. So let's say we have a 530 00:31:14,436 --> 00:31:17,676 Speaker 1: package called one hundred Powerful Women that's a package. When 531 00:31:17,796 --> 00:31:23,356 Speaker 1: we are producing a lineup for that, we are mindful 532 00:31:23,396 --> 00:31:25,996 Speaker 1: of and in fact literally writing down on a spreadsheet 533 00:31:27,076 --> 00:31:30,116 Speaker 1: who and what everybody is. Making sure that because the 534 00:31:30,116 --> 00:31:31,476 Speaker 1: thing is that I don't want to I don't want 535 00:31:31,476 --> 00:31:33,236 Speaker 1: to have come up with a list and then look 536 00:31:33,276 --> 00:31:35,196 Speaker 1: at it and say, a crap, eighty percent of these 537 00:31:35,196 --> 00:31:37,716 Speaker 1: people are white. We want to make sure that we're 538 00:31:38,236 --> 00:31:40,276 Speaker 1: we have a good mix, and literally the only way 539 00:31:40,276 --> 00:31:41,996 Speaker 1: to do that is to put it on a spreadsheet 540 00:31:42,316 --> 00:31:44,156 Speaker 1: and make sure that you've got the right numbers. And 541 00:31:44,196 --> 00:31:46,956 Speaker 1: that's what we do because there's no better, there's no 542 00:31:46,956 --> 00:31:49,516 Speaker 1: other way to do it. And that means doing a 543 00:31:49,516 --> 00:31:52,516 Speaker 1: lot of extra work, and it means being proactive and 544 00:31:52,796 --> 00:31:59,076 Speaker 1: contacting communities and constantly asking them for their own insights. 545 00:31:59,076 --> 00:32:02,476 Speaker 1: I met with a female investor a couple days ago. 546 00:32:02,756 --> 00:32:04,836 Speaker 1: We got coffee and I told her, I was like, look, 547 00:32:04,876 --> 00:32:07,956 Speaker 1: we're casting this hundred women thing. We're looking for a 548 00:32:07,996 --> 00:32:11,596 Speaker 1: really diverse range of founders. I would love you to 549 00:32:11,636 --> 00:32:13,196 Speaker 1: tap your network as well and tell me who you 550 00:32:13,236 --> 00:32:15,196 Speaker 1: think we should be considering. That's the only way to 551 00:32:15,196 --> 00:32:18,756 Speaker 1: do it. Take down the walls, let people contact you. 552 00:32:19,236 --> 00:32:21,796 Speaker 1: Be proactive in contacting them too, because to me, the 553 00:32:21,836 --> 00:32:26,196 Speaker 1: best way to serve our community is to try to 554 00:32:26,276 --> 00:32:29,276 Speaker 1: knock as many of those barriers down as possible. Last 555 00:32:29,356 --> 00:32:33,356 Speaker 1: question for you, Jason, Yeah, when you think about your 556 00:32:33,396 --> 00:32:38,036 Speaker 1: industry and your job, what worries you the most? You 557 00:32:38,076 --> 00:32:40,956 Speaker 1: sound like an upbeat, positive guy with good messages to 558 00:32:41,036 --> 00:32:42,436 Speaker 1: learn in good goals, and I don't want to in 559 00:32:42,436 --> 00:32:45,836 Speaker 1: any way undermind that you must have some worries sometimes, 560 00:32:45,876 --> 00:32:49,516 Speaker 1: and I'm wondering what they are. It's a funny, weird, 561 00:32:49,636 --> 00:32:54,156 Speaker 1: hard question. Actually, you're right. I am generally a very optimistic, 562 00:32:54,316 --> 00:32:57,236 Speaker 1: upbeat person, and I will tell you that serving an 563 00:32:57,236 --> 00:33:02,236 Speaker 1: optimistic and upbeat audience really helps do that. What keeps 564 00:33:02,276 --> 00:33:03,956 Speaker 1: me up at night, I mean, I guess the thing 565 00:33:04,036 --> 00:33:09,676 Speaker 1: that worries me the most is that there are always 566 00:33:09,716 --> 00:33:13,276 Speaker 1: bad actors who are looking to take advantage of people. 567 00:33:13,396 --> 00:33:15,676 Speaker 1: And in the world of entrepreneurship, I can tell you 568 00:33:15,756 --> 00:33:19,716 Speaker 1: that there are so many people who are looking to 569 00:33:19,796 --> 00:33:23,396 Speaker 1: get you to show up at their ten thousand dollars 570 00:33:24,436 --> 00:33:27,476 Speaker 1: three day course, and the whole point of that course 571 00:33:27,596 --> 00:33:29,276 Speaker 1: is to sell you on the fifty thousand dollars three 572 00:33:29,356 --> 00:33:33,156 Speaker 1: day course. And I hate those guys. They're bad. They're 573 00:33:33,196 --> 00:33:35,556 Speaker 1: bad for the people who they're trying to who they're 574 00:33:35,596 --> 00:33:38,636 Speaker 1: proposed to serve. And I think that it's good to 575 00:33:38,756 --> 00:33:45,636 Speaker 1: have strong leadership and strong I mean, I'll use the 576 00:33:45,676 --> 00:33:47,916 Speaker 1: word brand again because to me, entrepreneurs a brand more 577 00:33:47,916 --> 00:33:53,156 Speaker 1: than it is anything else. A strong brand that isn't 578 00:33:53,436 --> 00:33:56,716 Speaker 1: trying to actively take advantage of people. And I think 579 00:33:56,756 --> 00:34:01,156 Speaker 1: that it's possible that as the economics of these brands shift, 580 00:34:02,036 --> 00:34:04,516 Speaker 1: some will survive and some will not, and some will disappear. 581 00:34:04,596 --> 00:34:08,036 Speaker 1: And it's possible that that creates more oxygen for the 582 00:34:08,116 --> 00:34:12,076 Speaker 1: Charlottean's of the world. But I don't think that that 583 00:34:12,116 --> 00:34:14,236 Speaker 1: means that the Charlottean's of the world win. I think 584 00:34:14,236 --> 00:34:16,276 Speaker 1: that if Entrepreneur disappeared tomorrow. I think that if you 585 00:34:16,436 --> 00:34:19,316 Speaker 1: and I wrapped up this conversation and then I look 586 00:34:19,356 --> 00:34:21,596 Speaker 1: at my email and I've got an email from the 587 00:34:21,636 --> 00:34:24,596 Speaker 1: president of Entrepreneur that says, you know, crap, it's all 588 00:34:24,636 --> 00:34:27,716 Speaker 1: over and the company has disappeared. I don't think that 589 00:34:28,236 --> 00:34:31,716 Speaker 1: entrepreneurs suffer forever, right. I think that they lose a 590 00:34:31,756 --> 00:34:35,276 Speaker 1: trusted source of information and then another one rises, and 591 00:34:35,876 --> 00:34:39,156 Speaker 1: that's how it should be. Jason, thank you for your candor, 592 00:34:39,156 --> 00:34:42,636 Speaker 1: your enthusiasm. I learned a huge amount about your industry 593 00:34:42,676 --> 00:34:44,836 Speaker 1: and how it works, and also about what it takes 594 00:34:44,876 --> 00:34:47,236 Speaker 1: to succeed in it. And I'm really really grateful to 595 00:34:47,276 --> 00:34:49,516 Speaker 1: you for your time. Oh well, thanks, I appreciate you 596 00:34:49,556 --> 00:34:52,276 Speaker 1: and this is a lot of fun. Thanks. We'll be 597 00:34:52,396 --> 00:35:05,916 Speaker 1: right back listening to Jason. I was extraordinarily struck by 598 00:35:06,076 --> 00:35:10,916 Speaker 1: his candor. In no way did Jason attempt to mislead, misrepresent, 599 00:35:11,076 --> 00:35:14,316 Speaker 1: or sugarcoat the basic structure of how he understands his 600 00:35:14,436 --> 00:35:18,596 Speaker 1: branch of business journalism. In Jason's account, the point of 601 00:35:18,596 --> 00:35:22,436 Speaker 1: what he does is to support and embrace the mission 602 00:35:22,476 --> 00:35:26,316 Speaker 1: of small businesses, to help them be inspired to do better, 603 00:35:26,636 --> 00:35:29,156 Speaker 1: to give them advice about how to do their jobs, 604 00:35:29,436 --> 00:35:33,276 Speaker 1: and not to focus on negative stories that might inevitably 605 00:35:33,276 --> 00:35:37,476 Speaker 1: have the effect of alienating his readers. Jason sees his 606 00:35:37,516 --> 00:35:42,476 Speaker 1: readers as constituents or stakeholders in an overarching project, which is, 607 00:35:42,556 --> 00:35:45,916 Speaker 1: after all, part of the central project of capitalism in America, 608 00:35:46,356 --> 00:35:49,956 Speaker 1: namely getting small business to do big things in the world. 609 00:35:50,476 --> 00:35:54,236 Speaker 1: This perspective on a whole genre of journalism is almost 610 00:35:54,396 --> 00:35:57,756 Speaker 1: entirely missing from our general discussion in the culture of 611 00:35:57,796 --> 00:36:00,916 Speaker 1: what media is for and what it does. We tend 612 00:36:00,956 --> 00:36:04,356 Speaker 1: to think of newspapers and magazines in the classic mold 613 00:36:04,476 --> 00:36:06,396 Speaker 1: of the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal 614 00:36:06,836 --> 00:36:11,396 Speaker 1: being objective, aiming to tell the truth and uncovering instances 615 00:36:11,436 --> 00:36:16,076 Speaker 1: of wrongdoing by the subjects that they cover. Yet, in 616 00:36:16,116 --> 00:36:20,476 Speaker 1: today's complex economic reality for media journalism, it may be 617 00:36:20,636 --> 00:36:24,596 Speaker 1: that the business model of traditional objective journalism is limited 618 00:36:24,676 --> 00:36:29,756 Speaker 1: to only a handful of significant players. However, the market 619 00:36:29,796 --> 00:36:33,716 Speaker 1: for journalism of the kind that Jason described seems in 620 00:36:33,836 --> 00:36:38,476 Speaker 1: fact to be doing pretty well and even growing, reflecting 621 00:36:38,556 --> 00:36:42,556 Speaker 1: the underlying economic interest that many people seem to have 622 00:36:42,956 --> 00:36:46,636 Speaker 1: in reading stories that do give them feelings of uplift 623 00:36:46,796 --> 00:36:51,356 Speaker 1: and that do guide them towards their business objectives. In 624 00:36:51,396 --> 00:36:55,876 Speaker 1: that context, so relently positive is Jason's vision that even 625 00:36:55,996 --> 00:37:00,236 Speaker 1: topics like the potential monopolistic effects of big tech topics 626 00:37:00,236 --> 00:37:02,996 Speaker 1: that are in constant discussion on Capitol Hill, for example, 627 00:37:03,236 --> 00:37:07,996 Speaker 1: are not particularly in Jason's expert view of interest to 628 00:37:08,076 --> 00:37:13,076 Speaker 1: his readers. Why because they represent limitations, and his job, 629 00:37:13,556 --> 00:37:16,516 Speaker 1: as he sees it, is to tell stories that emphasize 630 00:37:16,676 --> 00:37:23,116 Speaker 1: possibilities by bringing us inside the actual world of how 631 00:37:23,196 --> 00:37:27,396 Speaker 1: journalism works at his magazine, Jason gave me and I 632 00:37:27,436 --> 00:37:31,516 Speaker 1: hope you too, a remarkable gift, the gift of the 633 00:37:31,636 --> 00:37:37,116 Speaker 1: unvarnished truth about how power actually is deployed in certain 634 00:37:37,196 --> 00:37:44,516 Speaker 1: journalistic spaces today, very much outside of the headlines. Until 635 00:37:44,556 --> 00:37:47,116 Speaker 1: the next time I speak to you here on Deep Background, 636 00:37:47,716 --> 00:37:52,196 Speaker 1: Breathe deep, think deep thoughts, and try to have a 637 00:37:52,236 --> 00:37:56,716 Speaker 1: little fun. If you're a regular listener, you know I 638 00:37:56,756 --> 00:38:00,356 Speaker 1: love communicating with you here on Deep Background. I also 639 00:38:00,436 --> 00:38:03,716 Speaker 1: really want that communication to run both ways. I want 640 00:38:03,716 --> 00:38:06,116 Speaker 1: to know what you think are the most important stories 641 00:38:06,236 --> 00:38:08,636 Speaker 1: of the moment and what kinds of guests you think 642 00:38:08,636 --> 00:38:11,556 Speaker 1: you would be useful to hear from. More So, I'm 643 00:38:11,596 --> 00:38:15,316 Speaker 1: opening a new channel of communication. To access it, just 644 00:38:15,396 --> 00:38:18,676 Speaker 1: go to my website Noah Dashfelman dot com. You can 645 00:38:18,716 --> 00:38:21,516 Speaker 1: sign up from my newsletter and you can tell me 646 00:38:21,636 --> 00:38:25,076 Speaker 1: exactly what's on your mind, something that would be really 647 00:38:25,156 --> 00:38:29,956 Speaker 1: valuable to me and I hope to you too. Deep 648 00:38:29,956 --> 00:38:33,316 Speaker 1: Background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer 649 00:38:33,436 --> 00:38:36,476 Speaker 1: is mo La Board, our engineer is Ben Taliday, and 650 00:38:36,596 --> 00:38:40,836 Speaker 1: our showrunner is Sophie Crane mccibbon. Editorial support from NOAHM 651 00:38:40,876 --> 00:38:45,476 Speaker 1: Osband theme music by Luis Gera at Pushkin. Thanks to 652 00:38:45,516 --> 00:38:50,436 Speaker 1: Mia Lobell, Julia Barton, Lydia Jeancott, Heather Faine, Carlie mcgliori, 653 00:38:50,756 --> 00:38:54,676 Speaker 1: Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weisberg. You can find 654 00:38:54,676 --> 00:38:57,596 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. I also write 655 00:38:57,596 --> 00:38:59,956 Speaker 1: a column for Bloomberg Opinion, which you can find at 656 00:38:59,996 --> 00:39:04,716 Speaker 1: bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's original slate 657 00:39:04,756 --> 00:39:09,396 Speaker 1: of podcasts, go to Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts, and 658 00:39:09,476 --> 00:39:11,756 Speaker 1: if you liked what you heard today, please write a 659 00:39:11,796 --> 00:39:15,236 Speaker 1: review or tell a friend. This is deep background