1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime. 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: compelling true crimes. 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries. 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 10 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens. 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: This is buried bones. 13 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 2: Hey, Paul, Hey Kate, how are you? 14 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: I'm doing well. That's it, no more. We don't have 15 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: time because you know, we're talking about the murder of 16 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,839 Speaker 1: an entire family in North Dakota in nineteen twenty and 17 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: it's baffling so far. I'm assuming you've been thinking about 18 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: this story. 19 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 2: I have, you know, In fact, I got my notes 20 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 2: from last week, you know, so at least you know 21 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 2: what I'm seeing in my notes. We've got the Wolf family, 22 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 2: a family of you know, two adults, a mother, father, 23 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 2: six daughters, plus a thirteen year old farm hand living 24 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 2: in North Dakota in the nineteen twenties, and all of 25 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,119 Speaker 2: them end up dead on this. 26 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,919 Speaker 1: Farm except for the little girl. Except for baby Emma. 27 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 2: Oh, that's right, that's right. 28 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: You did a good job summarizing it. I mean, you've 29 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: got five daughters who have been murdered, and the parents 30 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: and the farm hand, so you've got a total of 31 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: eight caskets. I remember from that photo we had discussed 32 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: what happened with Jacob and the nine year old Maria 33 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: and the seven year old Edna. So the two little 34 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: girls shot at the back of the head with a shotgun, 35 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: which I'm sure would have been just horrific to see. 36 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: And then we've got Jacob, who he was shot in 37 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: the back from a far back range, and then he 38 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: was shot kind of in the back slash side of 39 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: the head at a close range. So, I know, we 40 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: don't know the gauge of the shotgun, but how far 41 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 1: back can you be to get an accurate shot off? 42 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: Someone like is this when they say in far back, 43 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: how far are we talking? I mean this is you know, 44 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: this is not a rifle, so it's different. 45 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 2: Well, part of the advantages that a shotgun has and 46 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 2: the reason for the existence of a shotgun, you know 47 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 2: is often times, with the exception of select types of rounds, 48 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 2: like a slug, it's shooting out multiple pellets and as 49 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 2: these pellets travel down range, they start to spread, and 50 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 2: so you don't have to be very accurate with this 51 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: weapon in order to hit your target. You know. That 52 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 2: is part of the reason why shotguns exist. So, you know, 53 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 2: for the father Jacob to be shot in the back 54 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 2: at a distance, I would need to see the spread 55 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: of the pellets. You know, because doing what we call 56 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 2: a distance determination at burying distances, using a shotgun shoot 57 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: at a target and measuring the spread of the pellets, 58 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: we were able to determine roughly how far away the 59 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 2: shooter was from Jacob for that shot in the back. 60 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 2: If it was something that was like bird shot or 61 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 2: the double lot buck, if it was just a slug, 62 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 2: then no, you know, then we would be looking. If 63 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 2: it's a closer range shot, we'd need to have the 64 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 2: evidence such as the stippling, the singing, et cetera, also 65 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: associated with that wound in order to determine roughly, you know, 66 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 2: how many feet that shotgun was away, you know, so 67 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 2: I think it's just safe to say, you know, you 68 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 2: take a look. Jacob is the male, the adult male 69 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 2: that's on the property. He shot in the back. Makes 70 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: sense that of the three that are in the barn, 71 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 2: he is likely the first one shot at and his 72 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 2: back is turned. Who knows that Jacob is even aware 73 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 2: that the shooter is present or not, but that's to 74 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 2: incapacitate him, and then the shooter makes sure to finish 75 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 2: Jacob off, so this male is no longer a threat. 76 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 2: And of course the two little girls are just executed 77 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 2: with shots to the back of their head. And whether 78 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 2: they're standing up or laying down, who knows. 79 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: You know, I thought about, what is the reason why 80 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: you would kill all of these kids. Now, it could 81 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: be maybe they would recognize him, Maybe this is a 82 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: family member or a neighbor who they were very close with, 83 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: who knows, But I thought, well, maybe it's because you know, 84 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: they would all be screaming. This is a very rule farm. 85 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: I don't know who would hear them necessarily. I guess 86 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: I'm always trying to figure out what the motive is 87 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: to kill kids who are not your kids, and your 88 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: aim as a family annihilator, you know. 89 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 2: Right, now, off the top of my head, I'm thinking 90 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 2: of three very broad categories. First one that you alluded 91 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: to witnesses eliminating witnesses. The second one is vindictiveness, not 92 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 2: necessarily at the kids, Basically the offender is so upset 93 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 2: with somebody in this family that is just going to 94 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 2: wipe everybody out. And then the last one is psychosis, 95 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 2: absolute random crime. You now have a psychotic offender that 96 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 2: is just going around killing everything in sight. 97 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: Okay, well, we do know who the offender is, we 98 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: think in this case, so it'll be interesting to see 99 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: which category this falls into, or maybe it's all three. 100 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: We don't know. Ok I know that I left you 101 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: hanging with the fatal wounds for the kids and the 102 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: mother in the basement, so let me tell you what 103 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: happens there. Okay, when they examine everybody in the basement, 104 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,239 Speaker 1: the mother, who is missus wolf Biata, has been shot 105 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: in the back at close range and she has a 106 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: massive hole in her body. Bertha twelve, she's the eldest 107 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: besides the farm hand, had been shot in the face 108 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: at close range. This is all with a shotgun. Lydia, 109 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: who was five, had been shot behind her left ear 110 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 1: and had a deep gash at the back of her skull. 111 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: They believe this was from a hatchet. The hatchet was 112 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: found Paul in the kitchen. It was on the floor 113 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 1: of the kitchen. Now I didn't see it in that photo, 114 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: but it was on the floor of the kitchen, and 115 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: it had blood on the blade. It's clear that that's 116 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: what was used. So the five year old had that 117 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: deep gash at the base of her skull, and she 118 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: had been shot behind her left ear. And then finally Martha, 119 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: who is the three year old, no shotgun blast. She 120 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: had been hit in the head with the hatchet, the 121 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: blunt end of the hatchet. They said. The sheriff has 122 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: a theory about sequencing that I'll run by you in 123 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: a little bit, but just sort of at first, blush here, 124 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: what do you think about all of these you know, 125 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: all of these wounds that have taken place here, awful 126 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: with a shotgun in a small kitchen. 127 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's well, it's it's hard to say, 128 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 2: you know, because we have two different weapons. You know, 129 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: does that suggest that you know, we have two different offenders. 130 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: We have a shotgun being used out in the barn 131 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: and also inside the residence, and then on two of 132 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: the girls. We have one girl that is shot, but 133 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: she also looks like she's been struck with the hatchet. 134 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 2: And then we have the one girl that's only been 135 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 2: struck with the hatchet, and. 136 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: That's the blunt end. So they're they're making it. It's 137 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: a distinction. So Lydia was a deep wound, so the 138 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: front of the hatchet, and then Martha they can tell 139 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: was from the blunt end. 140 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 2: You know. And it's hard to say if the offender 141 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 2: is even aware that he's wielding the hatchet and what 142 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 2: orientation he's wielding the hatchet, maybe in the dynamic situation 143 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 2: of inflicting these blows. So it's hard to say for 144 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 2: sure that the offender has purposely chosen to use the 145 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 2: blunt end on Martha and then the cutting end on Lydia. 146 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 2: One of the possibilities for the reason for the two weapons, 147 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 2: and I think this is where it really does depend 148 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 2: on the sequence. I mean, it is possible that the 149 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 2: offender had the shotgun, you know, shoots three bodies, three 150 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 2: victims out there in the barn, and is shooting the 151 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 2: victims inside the house and runs out of Amma and 152 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 2: now picks up the hatchet, you know, So that's one 153 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 2: progression that could occur. It's also possible the offender starts 154 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 2: with the hatchet and recognizes maybe the shotgun is the 155 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 2: family shotgun and ends up taking that and kills the 156 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 2: people inside the house and then goes outside and tracks 157 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 2: down the dad and the two girls out there. I'm 158 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 2: sure there's other possible scenarios, you know, but right now 159 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 2: I think it's those two are the primary ones that 160 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: I think in terms of why two different weapons and 161 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: the sequencing, And it could go either direction with the 162 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: information I have right now. 163 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: Do you mean to run by what the sheriff thinks 164 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: the sequencing is so far or what do you think? 165 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's hear it. 166 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: So they do believe that the murders happened in different places, 167 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: you know, some murders in the kitchen, some murders in 168 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,959 Speaker 1: the barn. They think that Jacob, the father, Jacob Wolf, 169 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: tried to run from the kitchen and was shot outside 170 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: between the house and the barn, and they believe the 171 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: killer shot him from a distance in the back while 172 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: he was running, and then you know, when he went down, 173 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: killed him at close range. And they think the two 174 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: little girls whose bodies were found in the barn tried 175 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 1: to hide there and were then shot at close range. 176 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 2: Now, but Jacob was found in the barn, right he was, Yeah, Okay, 177 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 2: So if he is actually receiving this gun shot, the 178 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 2: shotgun blast to his head in between the house and 179 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: the barn, that would be obvious in terms of the blood, 180 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 2: brain matter, et cetera, on the ground wherever he ended 181 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 2: up laying, and then he's drug into the barn, you know, 182 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 2: And this is somewhat consistent with what the offender's doing 183 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 2: inside the house. He's trying to hide the body, so 184 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 2: he's not leaving Jacob out in playing view, laying between 185 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 2: the barn and the house. He's taking Jacob's body, which 186 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 2: takes effort and time to go into the barn. Again, 187 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 2: we don't know, you know, if Jacob's running out of 188 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 2: the house and shot in the back, I'm having What 189 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 2: I'm struggling with is he is now leaving behind his wife, 190 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: daughters in the farm, hand inside the house with the offender, 191 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 2: and is going out towards the barn where the two 192 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 2: girls are. So there must be something If that's truly 193 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 2: the scenario, there must be some information in which Jacob 194 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 2: thinks the two girls out in the barn are under 195 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 2: a greater threat than the people that are inside the house. 196 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 2: That's the only I think logical thing. I'm just putting 197 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 2: myself in Jacob's position. Right If I have only got 198 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 2: one offender, and the offender is in the house with me, 199 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 2: the people in the house are the ones that are 200 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 2: under the biggest threat. I'm not going to all said 201 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 2: and worry about the two girls that are safe out 202 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 2: in the bar. And why would I abandon my family 203 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 2: inside the house to go out towards the barn. So 204 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 2: I'm struggling with this scenario right now. 205 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: So what I think the sheriff is thinking right now 206 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: with his limited information. Everybody was in the kitchen except 207 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: for Jacob. They think Jacob was in the barn first. Okay, 208 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: And I don't know if this makes sense to you too. 209 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: So everybody's in, they're preparing dinner, they're sitting down. She's 210 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: probably gonna call Jacob to dinner. Shortly, the attacker comes in, 211 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: and the sheriff thinks that Jacob heard the screams of 212 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 1: his wife and the kids and he came running. It 213 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: is possible that the two little girls who were found 214 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: in the barn pasted him. They took off and escaped 215 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: and hid in the barn, and when he got to 216 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: the kitchen, you know, maybe that's when they left, or 217 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: maybe you know, who knows when this was happening. The 218 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: offender is not able to control all of these people. 219 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: So when Jacob arrives, he sees the offender turns tail 220 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: and runs back to the barn, and the little girls 221 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: are already maybe in the barn, and the offender then 222 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: goes after Jacob. So the sequence is very confusing to 223 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: me because that's a lot of I mean, so what 224 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: is he doing. He's killing Boom boom boom. Jacob arrives 225 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: at some point, boom boom boom, and he kills everybody 226 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: else and then manages to get a shot off of 227 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: Jacob hit himing him in the back. All of this 228 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: seems like a lot to have happen with one if 229 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: this is just one person, one person being able to 230 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: do all this. But what do you think, I mean, 231 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: I know you've always said it doesn't take very long 232 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: to kill somebody. 233 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 2: No, you know, in terms of the amount of time, 234 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 2: you know, to actually kill this entire family with a shotgun, 235 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 2: and then of course we've got one of them is 236 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 2: killed with strictly just the hatchet. You know, it's not 237 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 2: necessarily a length of time. I'm just trying to kind 238 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:44,599 Speaker 2: of envision if you truly have these two clusters of victims, 239 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 2: If the offender is interacting with the group that is 240 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 2: inside and then leaves that group and then takes off 241 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 2: after Jacob and kills Jacob and the two girls, what's 242 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 2: going on with the group inside the house now? Are 243 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 2: they just huddling in fear. That's a possibility. You'd almost 244 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 2: think that they would disperse, it would get the hell 245 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 2: out of the house, but maybe not, you know, and 246 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 2: then that allows the offender to come back and then 247 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 2: kill them. I will tell you, you know, we took a 248 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: look at the photograph of the blood staining in the kitchen. 249 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 2: By no shape or means is that blood staining consistent 250 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: with any of these victims being shot in the head 251 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 2: with a shotgun. They're likely being killed or shot down 252 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 2: in the basement after they're put down there, unless there's 253 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 2: other staining in the house that that you haven't described 254 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 2: to me right now, at least with what the sheriff's 255 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 2: theory is I'm struggling to kind of rectify that, you know, 256 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 2: considering a single offender. Yeah, not saying it's impossible, but 257 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 2: I am struggling a little bit with that. 258 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: So one thing I thought of is maybe I'm not 259 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: saying he got lucky here, but maybe the timing was 260 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: such that he killed everybody in that kitchen that he 261 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: needed to kill. The two girls took off, Jacob ran 262 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: so everybody was dead, so there was no huddling to 263 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: be done because he had killed the five people right there. 264 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: The girls had left and snuck out, and then Jacob 265 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: shows up. 266 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 2: They're not being shot in the head with a shotgun 267 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 2: in that kitchen, you don't think. So I can guarantee that, 268 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 2: at least with the photo that you showed me. If 269 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 2: there's other other blood staining, there'd be massive blood pools, 270 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 2: massive massive blood pools. I'm not seeing that. There. There 271 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 2: would be spatter right now. My primary theory is is 272 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 2: that the sheriff must be seeing evidence that Jacob was 273 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 2: killed outside the barn if he's forming that opinion, because 274 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 2: there'd be a huge blood pool from this shotgun blast 275 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 2: to his head right and drag marks you know, with 276 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 2: dripping blood into the barn, it almost makes sense that 277 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 2: Jacob was in between these two, you know, the house 278 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 2: and the barn. He's gunned down. He's drug out to 279 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 2: the barn. Whether the two girls were already in there 280 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 2: or they come in, maybe they're they were told by mom, hey, 281 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 2: go get your dad, it's dinner time, and then they're 282 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 2: they're killed, and then he goes in and now he's 283 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 2: controlling the five that are at the dinner table, and 284 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 2: some of them are bleeding up in that kitchen, but 285 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 2: they have not been shot with a shotgun. Up in 286 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 2: that kitchen. There would be a massive blood pool, and 287 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 2: so it's like, no, they in all likelihood. Maybe the 288 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 2: girl Martha, who was killed with the hatchet, is killed 289 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 2: up up there, but I bet these other family members 290 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 2: were possibly forced down the trap door, and I would 291 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 2: be expecting a fair amount of blood from the victims 292 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 2: that were shot in the back of the head with 293 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 2: a shotgun and one girl was shot in the face. 294 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 2: So you know, I'm thinking the homicides with the shotgun 295 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 2: inside the house are occurring down in the basement. Maybe 296 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 2: the one or two girls that received wounds from the 297 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 2: hatchet are killed up or at least struck with the 298 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 2: hatchet up in the kitchen area. And if that white 299 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 2: material I saw in that fabric on the floor as 300 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,199 Speaker 2: brain matter, well, then that's from Martha who's receiving the 301 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 2: blunt and blow from the back of the hatchet. You know, 302 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 2: that'd be a crushing injury that would possibly leave brain matter, 303 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 2: plus the bleeding. If I had all the photos and 304 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 2: everything else, I'd probably be able to tease out exactly 305 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 2: sort of what's going on here. But at least with 306 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 2: the little bit that I'm discerning from the information you've 307 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 2: given me, and then what the sheriff is hypothesizing, I'm 308 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 2: kind of blending all that together to something that makes 309 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,360 Speaker 2: sense to me, assuming one offender. 310 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 1: Okay, so the sheriff is very dedicated. He's got neighbors 311 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 1: coming over while they're trying to sort this out. He's 312 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: very concerned about securing the crime scene, so he has 313 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,360 Speaker 1: a couple of neighbors spend the night with him. Two 314 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 1: other neighbors and the sheriff stay the night in the house. 315 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 1: They keep the bodies exactly where they are, and one 316 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: of the neighbors is it sounds like a relative of 317 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: the farm hand who is a relative of missus Wolf. 318 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: So how awful. They've left all the bodies in place, 319 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: which is smart, but you know, to sleep all night, 320 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: even as law enforcement, to sleep all night with the 321 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: dead bodies and not knowing if somebody is going to 322 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: come back, or what the motive is or who did 323 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 1: this must have been really frightening. I would be frightened 324 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: at least. 325 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not the way I'd recommend securing a crime scene. 326 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: Better than leaving it and leaving the fun door open. 327 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 2: I guess, well, you know, in this day and age, 328 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 2: we put up a yellow crime I'm seeing tape. We 329 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 2: put patrol officers you know, around the perimeter, and yeah, 330 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 2: but yeah, I could see where, you know, back then, 331 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 2: this was this was the mechanism that they chose. 332 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, So it becomes important because the two neighbors 333 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: decide to leave and they go to the hope for 334 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: farm to get breakfast for the sheriff and for themselves, 335 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: and they were going to bring it back. So the 336 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: sheriff's on his own at this house with five dead 337 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: bodies and three people in the barn and somebody on 338 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: the loose because he now, of course realizes that this 339 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 1: was not a murder suicide. When the sheriff is on 340 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: his own, you know, he is kind of just making 341 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: sure everything is secure. At about five point thirty in 342 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: the morning, he hears a car coming, and I think 343 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 1: that he's assuming that this is going to be you know, 344 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: the two neighbors who went to go get him breakfast. 345 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: The description is he hears a car coming across the prairie. 346 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: I love the idea. I don't think I've said prairie 347 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: one of our episodes before, but I love that image 348 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: coming of like a car and you know, these are 349 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty cars, so there, you know, it's like bouncing across. 350 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: So he hears a car coming. They were very loud, 351 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: so you can't really sneak up on somebody. I mean, 352 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: we're certainly not talking about a Prius or anything. And 353 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: he steps outside. He can't identify the car at first, 354 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: so it sounds like is very smart. He steps back 355 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: into the shadows and kind of hides to see what's 356 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: going to happen. He's under a lean to that's just 357 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: like right outside the kitchen. Car pulls up and a 358 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: guy gets out. The sheriff doesn't know who this man is. 359 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: He is looking into the farmhouse living room window and 360 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 1: he starts walking towards the barn, so he's looking through 361 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: the window, walks towards the barn, and that's when the 362 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: sheriff pops out and says hello, and the man freezes. 363 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: I'm not saying this is the offender. I'm not saying 364 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 1: a man is. This man is a suspect. It's just 365 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 1: the sheriff trying to get information about who's on this 366 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: private property which has been the subject of a murder scene. 367 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 1: Sheriff introduces himself and the man says that he's the 368 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: owner of a neighboring farm. And you know, everybody else 369 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: has come out, so I don't think this is a 370 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: surprise to the sheriff. And this is the first time 371 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: the man has shown up. So there's been activity for 372 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: the past twenty four hours at this farm, but this 373 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 1: is the first time that the sheriff is meeting someone 374 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: he hadn't met earlier. His name is Henry Layer. He's 375 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 1: thirty six and he is originally from Russia. Remember this 376 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: is very immigrant centric this area. And you know, Layer says, 377 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: this is awful. I can't even believe this. These were 378 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: really good neighbors and understand what happened. They talk for 379 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: a while, and this is where Henry Layer starts to 380 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: get a little bit iffy. So he is suspicious because 381 00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 1: he's got his hand inside a pocket, and the sheriff 382 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,360 Speaker 1: kind of blows it off because he doesn't think it's 383 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: The pocket's very small, so it's not going to have 384 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: a weapon in it. And then the other guys show 385 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: up with breakfast, and so, you know, Henry Layer kind 386 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: of stays and he says. The sheriff says to one 387 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: of the neighbors, did you drive past this guy's house, 388 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: Henry Layer's house, Because Henry Lair had said, I live 389 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: over in this direction on your way to go get 390 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: the breakfast, and I didn't understand why this would be significant, 391 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: but I guess it is. So he says, did you 392 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: drive by this guy's house as you left the farm? 393 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: And the neighbor said yes, And he said, so, would 394 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: Henry Layer have heard you leave the farm? And the 395 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: neighbor said yeah. And plus we have a lot of 396 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: loud cars. So the significance is what that, you know, 397 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,239 Speaker 1: Henry is able to hear who's coming and going, and 398 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: that's what's signaling him to come to the farm or 399 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: what do you think? 400 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 2: Well, I think if it's the being suspicious about Henry. 401 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 2: You know, of course Henry knows there's activity going on 402 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 2: at the Wolf farm and there's law enforcement being present there. 403 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 2: So when Henry hears the cars go past his house, 404 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 2: he may be making the assumption, well, the Wolf house 405 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 2: and property are abandoned, Now is my time to go 406 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 2: back and do whatever if Henry isn't involved in the crime. 407 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 2: So I think that that's what the sheriff is kind 408 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 2: of keying in on. Is it just so happens that 409 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 2: at the moment that only one person besides the dead 410 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 2: bodies are present, This is when Henry, who's supposedly a 411 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 2: good neighbor of this the Wolf family, that's when he 412 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 2: decides to show up, and he walks up onto the 413 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 2: property and looks into the house and is starting to 414 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 2: head out to the barn where three victims were killed 415 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 2: or at least their bodies found. 416 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: You know, the share of is suspicious of everybody at 417 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 1: this point. So you know, Henry's in the mix. But 418 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: I think he's trying to keep an open mind, But 419 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: that I think is what he's piecing together exactly what 420 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 1: you said. And it could be Henry just taking advantage 421 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: of a tragedy and to steal some copper wire or something. 422 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: We don't know. You know, being a thief doesn't certainly make. 423 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 2: You a murderer. Or is he a luky lou? 424 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: Could be a luky lou. 425 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 2: He's just like, oh, you know, let's go check things out, 426 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 2: all right, Yeah. 427 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: Get a souvenir. If there's eBay in the nineteen twenties 428 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: and there's not, I could hawk something you know knows, 429 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: but you know, we're still trying to think about gathering evidence. Henry. 430 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: I don't know why the sheriff allows him to go 431 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: all over the house. He's accompanying him, but maybe he 432 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: thinks that he's going to say something that's incriminating. I 433 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: don't know. Henry says, let's go out to the barn 434 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: and check out the chickens to see if they've laid 435 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: any eggs. The bodies are still there of these two 436 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: little girls and their dad, and everybody thinks it's weird, 437 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 1: but the sheriff says, sure, let's go. So they go 438 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 1: out to the barn and you know, Henry points out 439 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: there are a few eggs, and seems like this is good, 440 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: It's great, there are these eggs here. But when everybody 441 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: kind of turns and looks at the eggs, he announces 442 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: that he has found a clue in the hay. And 443 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 1: in the hay he says he has found some shotgun shells, 444 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: which the sheriff had not found before. So, I mean, 445 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: Henry is not a rocket scientist. Clearly. I think the 446 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: sheriff immediately thinks, oh, this guy doesn't have his hand 447 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: in his pocket anymore. Clearly he's planting evidence. I don't 448 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: know if that's true, but that's what it seems like. 449 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: He is the only one who has discovered in this 450 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: hay some shotgun casings. 451 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 2: You know, I'm I'm I'm thinking about it from a 452 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 2: sort of a crime scene reconstruction standpoint. You know, the 453 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 2: location of these of these expended shotgun shopes. Is that 454 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 2: consistent with how the shotgun would have ejected these shells 455 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 2: considering the type of you know, where the shooter would 456 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 2: have been standing to kill these three victims, you know, 457 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 2: And since I don't have that information, I can't say that. 458 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 2: So I can, on one hand say, Okay, maybe this 459 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 2: is consistent with the gun used and where the shooter 460 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 2: would have been standing From an ejection pattern standpoint, are 461 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 2: the shotgun shells just laying on top of the hay, 462 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 2: you know? Or were they found underneath like they had 463 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 2: been hidden? Now? Could an offender, after killing the three victims, 464 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 2: taking the time to grab up the expended shotgun shells 465 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 2: and hide them. Sure? This is also where it's interesting 466 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 2: in terms of, well, what kind of shotgun are we 467 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 2: talking about? You know? Is this a shotgun like a 468 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 2: pump action shotgun? Is this a lever shotgun where you 469 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 2: you know, snap it down and have to manly take 470 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 2: out these shells? You know? Some of this is where 471 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 2: it's you know, is the shells even being present at 472 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 2: the crime scene consistent with the gun used. If Jacob 473 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 2: is shot outside and then drug into the barn, you know, 474 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 2: how many shelled? There should only be two shells expended 475 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 2: because those are the two girls that are being killed 476 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 2: inside because Jacob. The shells for Jacob should be outside 477 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 2: unless the offender pulls them out or rejects them inside 478 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 2: the barn before shooting the girls. So this is all 479 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 2: what I'm kind of starting to Okay, there's a lot 480 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 2: of variables that I don't have the information on. But 481 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 2: the sheriff is most certainly savvy, you know, to how 482 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 2: shotguns operate, and knows this crime scene and he immediately 483 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 2: is going, Okay, this isn't right. You know, Henry threw 484 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 2: out a distraction and now sounds like the sheriff is suspecting. 485 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 2: He pulls out the shells out of that little pocket 486 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 2: and is planting them there. Well, why is he doing that. Well, 487 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 2: he's probably planting shells from a different gun, you know, 488 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 2: to throw off the investigation. He is trying to literally 489 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 2: stage this crime scene in front of the sheriff who's 490 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 2: investigating the crime. 491 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 1: And luckily we have a smart sheriff here, so that's good. 492 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: I have been searching and I really can't find what 493 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 1: kind of shotgun it is. I'm sorry, sure it's you know, 494 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 1: but I think you're making some good assumptions. They bring 495 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: in hounds, and of course they interview everybody around. The 496 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: hounds are useless because it's been raining so much. There's 497 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: no help there. You know, the sheriff is suspicious of Henry, 498 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: but there's not a lot of evidence that is, you know, 499 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: kind of directly pointing at him. Even though I know 500 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: we're talking about it's clear that he's trying to plant evidence. 501 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: They have some rewards out to one thousand dollars rewards, 502 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: which is more than fifteen thousand dollars today, So that 503 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: means you've got to be more people out there trying 504 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: to figure out what happened. Later that morning, the other 505 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: murder weapon, in addition to the hatchet, is located, and 506 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: I still don't have the exact gauge here, but there's 507 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: a swampy area close by where someone notices the stock 508 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: of a shotgun sticking out. It's slightly rested, but it's 509 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: consistent with having been in the water for two days, 510 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: which is how long they think that this has been happening. 511 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: No one knows who bought it, and the manufacturer of 512 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: the gun is contacted and they have no idea. I mean, 513 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: you know who knows. But it sounds like they did 514 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: find the murder weapon. There's nothing they can really do 515 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: about that. In nineteen twenty. There's ballistics, but I don't. 516 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 2: Know shot well, shotguns are different than your handguns and 517 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 2: your rifles. So shotguns are smooth bored weapons, so there's 518 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 2: no rifling inside of most shotguns, So when the projectiles 519 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 2: travel down this smooth they're not marked like projectiles out 520 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 2: of a rifled handgun or a rifled rifle. The marks 521 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 2: that a shotgun would leave that could be intercompared would 522 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,959 Speaker 2: be on the shotgun shelves, the firing pin impression, the 523 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 2: breach face stamp, whether or not it's a shotgun that 524 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 2: had like a ejector extractor, which nineteen twenties. You know, 525 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 2: I'm not a firearms expert that has the you know, 526 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 2: in depth familiarity of what types of guns would have 527 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 2: existed back in the nineteen twenties. But my guess is 528 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 2: is you're not having a in all likelihood, this is 529 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 2: not like a semi auto shotgun. You know, That's my guess. 530 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: So we have a funeral and Henry Layer comes to 531 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: the funeral. He's part of the community. I mean, everybody 532 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: came to this funeral. As you can tell from that photo. 533 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: He's being weird and the sheriff is watching. He insists 534 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: that each of the cast gets be opened so he 535 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: can look at each one. But he doesn't cry or 536 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: have any emotion or anything. 537 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 2: This is Henry, Yeah, what is he doing? 538 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: So he's having each casket opened and he looks at it. 539 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: He doesn't really do anything, and that's it, and everybody 540 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: thinks this is bananas. 541 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it is. Is that, you know, I guess 542 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 2: the only thought, well, I would need to know more 543 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 2: about Henry, But right now I'm going to assume Henry 544 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 2: is your average farm person, not involved in homicidal violence 545 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 2: on a periodic basis. You know, it's not a hitman, 546 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 2: not mafia, you know, doing these types of homicides. And 547 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 2: I'm almost wondering if there is a sense of guilt 548 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 2: and making peace with each of the victims, if he's 549 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 2: responsible making the assumption, you know, he's responsible to look 550 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 2: at one of them. I can't see how that would 551 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 2: unless he's having to he's trying to acquire details for 552 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 2: subsequent interviews. You know. I think maybe it's a personal thing, 553 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 2: something inside that he needs to do. But that is bizarre. 554 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 2: I mean that the sheriff is spot on. That's a 555 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 2: behavior that I have to pay attention to. 556 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: So we've got in reacting weird Henry probably planting evidence 557 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: because it's under the hay, which we've already kind of said, 558 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: makes no sense, no sense. I mean, you know, Michelle 559 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: is not going to die of its way into Hey, 560 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: so I don't think he understood that when he was 561 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: planting it, right, So we have that information. 562 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 2: Just that that bit of information and relying a little 563 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 2: bit upon that the you know, the sheriff's own observations, 564 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 2: and I'm putting some fair amount of weight on the 565 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 2: veracity of the sheriff and his observational abilities in this case. 566 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 2: This really if Henry truly is planting those shotguns, and 567 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 2: he now becomes prime suspect. 568 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they go to his house and his daughters, 569 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: they're not trying to protect their dad. They said he 570 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: wasn't home for a large part of Thursday, which is 571 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: when they think this happened. Okay, he said he wasn't there, 572 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: so he doesn't have a good alibi. So the motive, 573 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: this is what's mysterious. What do you think? So this 574 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: is a neighbor Yeah, but we don't know anything about 575 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: There is a motive, but we don't know anything about 576 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: a motive. What are the possibilities here? 577 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 2: The first thing that comes to my mind is that 578 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 2: there is a dispute, kind of a neighbor dispute, possibly 579 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 2: related to farming land boundaries. You know, do they have cattle? 580 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 2: You know any yep? Okay, so you know I've watched Yellowstone. 581 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: Are you comparing this to Yellowstone? 582 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean you could see that these cattles are 583 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 2: the livelihood and maybe there's a dispute between them over 584 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 2: something that is a you know, high stakes financial you know, 585 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 2: financial situation for one or the other. So that's probably 586 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 2: right now my my top theory without knowing I mean, 587 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 2: it's possible that maybe Jacob was you know, doing criminal 588 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 2: work for Henry and didn't live up to his end 589 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 2: of what he was supposed to do. You know, But 590 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 2: considering the little bit of victimology that you talked about 591 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 2: Jacob at the beginning in the first episode, in terms 592 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 2: of there he's not abusive to his family, and he 593 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 2: seems to be a good guy and this and that, 594 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 2: I'm going to say, no, you know what, I think 595 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 2: Henry's a bad guy here, and somehow he feels that 596 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 2: he's been stiffed by Jacob and this family. And now 597 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 2: you're getting into that vindictive category of why the whole family. Basically, 598 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 2: you know, Henry is like, not only am I going 599 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 2: to take out Jacob, I'm going to take out this 600 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 2: entire family, and maybe there's some sort of aspect in 601 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 2: which Henry could end up taking over Jacob's property and 602 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 2: expand his own farm. So by Jacob no longer having 603 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 2: any heirs to inherit the land, yeah, Henry can now 604 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:21,240 Speaker 2: somehow swoop in and expand his business and financially profit. 605 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 2: So that's kind of the direction that I'm thinking right now. 606 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 1: What we find out is that neighbors start to say 607 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: Jacob the father, was having problems with the neighbor. There 608 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: was a disagreement that he was actually worried about this neighbor, 609 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: but they never named Jacob, never named the neighbor. So 610 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: when the sheriff presses other neighbors who he hadn't spoken 611 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: to yet about information about this mysterious neighbor, we find 612 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: out it's Henry Lair. Tell me what you think about 613 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: this as a motive, Apparently, Henry Lair's livestock had trespassed 614 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: on to the wolf land, as livestock is apt to do. 615 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: Wolf's dog had bitten Layer when he came on to 616 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: try to retrieve the cattle. There was then sort of 617 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: this feud, and it sounds like both men were spreading 618 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: rumors and gossip about each other. Really, this is a 619 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: motive to kill an entire family. I started watching this 620 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: show called fear Thy Neighbor, and I cannot believe the 621 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: stupid reasons why people kill each other, like over fence, 622 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: being too tall, Like it's unreal. So at first I 623 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: thought this is stupid that I thought. No, I could 624 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: see this on fear Thy Neighbor, the TV series. 625 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 2: No, absolutely, I'm gonna throw out at a different analogy. Okay, 626 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 2: road rage. You know, you get pissed off at somebody 627 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 2: because they cut you off or do something in traffic. Right, 628 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 2: and now you got two people that are just you know, 629 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 2: they're not thinking, they're just pissed off at each other. 630 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 2: And one runs the other off the road and pulls 631 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 2: out a gun and kills them. You know, it's just 632 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 2: how dare you? You know? And so this this neighbor dispute, 633 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 2: you know, originating with the dog bite, you know, it 634 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 2: escalated and Henry has the psychology of how dare you? 635 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 2: Right and took out Jacob and his entire family. That's 636 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 2: my opinion right now, I think it's crystal clear what 637 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 2: happened here. 638 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:28,359 Speaker 1: Well, let's find out, because the sheriff is aware it's 639 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 1: been three weeks now, he's aware that there's a lot 640 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: of public pressure on him and the investigators to make 641 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:38,439 Speaker 1: an arrest. Now everybody thinks it's Henry, and Henry has 642 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: not confessed, and he's denying all of this, and there's 643 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,839 Speaker 1: not a ton of concrete evidence. It's kind of circumstantially, except, 644 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 1: of course, we know we do think he planted evidence. 645 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 1: So the sheriff tries to do The sheriff tries to 646 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 1: do a couple of things. He's very creative, i have 647 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: to say, especially for nineteen twenty. So on the way 648 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 1: to taking Henry, they arrest him, and on the way 649 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: to taking him to the jail house, there's a man 650 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: that darts across the street and the sheriff's deputies run 651 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: out of the car that Henry's in and chase him down. 652 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: They put him next to Henry. This is a plant, Yeah, 653 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 1: and they stick him both in jail and Layer doesn't 654 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: ever confess. Henry doesn't ever confess to this, so they 655 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: really are trying to get a confession out of him. 656 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, this day and age, there's definitely restrictions on how 657 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 2: you do that type of scenario. But you know, that 658 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:40,800 Speaker 2: is a tactic that is employed from time to time. Okay, Again, 659 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,320 Speaker 2: there's a lot of legalities that restrict what law enforcement 660 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 2: can do, particularly under this set of circumstances. 661 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,919 Speaker 1: Okay. So the reason I say that is because it's 662 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 1: very clear that the sheriff wants a confession, that he 663 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: doesn't think he has a strong case against Henry if 664 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 1: he doesn't get a confession. So this and this is 665 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: why I said, remember what happened at the funeral with 666 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: Henry looking at the bodies and the caskets and making 667 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 1: a big deal out of that. So the sheriff gets 668 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: him back to the jail and interrogates him. They are 669 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: not getting anywhere with him until they show the sheriff says. 670 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 1: They show crime scene photos of the bodies, and the 671 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 1: sheriff says that when they show a photo of Emma 672 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 1: in her crib, you know the one I showed you, 673 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 1: they I think made that photo up and you know, 674 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: showed it to him to show that she's alive and 675 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: that all of these people are dead. He breaks down 676 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:44,359 Speaker 1: in tears and confesses he will later Paul, he will 677 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: later say I was beaten into a confession. I certainly 678 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: think that Henry was guilty. I don't know how you 679 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: feel about this, but why would photos of the people 680 00:39:56,040 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 1: he killed have a bigger reaction that forces confession out 681 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: of him then actually being in front of their caskets 682 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: and looking at their dead. But it didn't make any 683 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: sense to me. Why would you have a reaction in 684 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: one way and not the other. That's why I'm wondering 685 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: if Henry really did get beaten to get this confession. 686 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 2: But also I think it's also within the context of 687 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:21,239 Speaker 2: when he is looking at the cast gets versus when 688 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 2: he's looking at the photos. You know, when he's looking 689 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 2: at the photos, he's under suspicion. He's recognizing, you know, 690 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 2: he's under jeopardy in terms of his freedom and potentially 691 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 2: his life if this is a death eligible case. So 692 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 2: time has passed, reflection, emotions, you know, maybe he's now 693 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 2: recognizing that. You know, you said he had some kids. 694 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 2: He's not going to be around for his kids. You know, 695 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:56,720 Speaker 2: who knows the differences. I don't think the difference between him, 696 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 2: you know, looking at the bodies in the casket versus 697 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 2: now he's breaking down looking at the photos, that that 698 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,720 Speaker 2: is somehow indicative that he was mistreated during the interview. 699 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 2: It would not be surprising to me if there was, 700 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 2: let's say, a level of corporal involvement in terms of, 701 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 2: you know, he's you know, getting whacked a bit, you know, 702 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 2: as he's being interviewed, you know, nineteen twenties, you know, 703 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 2: it's It wouldn't surprise me at all. However, I in 704 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 2: terms of utilizing the difference in his response from the 705 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 2: caskets to the photos, I don't put any weight on 706 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 2: that at all. 707 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I told you he confessed. So I'm going 708 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: to just tell you what he says, from start to 709 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,279 Speaker 1: finish happened, and you tell me if it makes sense 710 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 1: based on what you know. Now, Okay, you ready, because 711 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,359 Speaker 1: there's some differences from what you and I said. So 712 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 1: he confesses, whether it was you know, a real heart 713 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: and soul confession or beaten out of him. He says 714 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,239 Speaker 1: that he was pissed off about the dog and that 715 00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 1: he went over to the wolf's house and they got 716 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 1: into an argument. Jacob got into an argument, and Jacob 717 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 1: grabbed his own shotgun. We don't know whether the shotgun 718 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,279 Speaker 1: in the swampy area was Jacob's, but Henry says, I 719 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: wasn't armed, he had the shotgun. The two men fought 720 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,799 Speaker 1: over the gun and Henry got it. He says that 721 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: when they were fighting, the gun went off accidentally two times, 722 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,719 Speaker 1: one shot that killed the wife in the kitchen and 723 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,719 Speaker 1: the other one that killed Jacob. Ho for the farm hand. 724 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 1: He said that everybody else is there, and Jacob was 725 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: in the kitchen at the time. Jacob freaks out and 726 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 1: runs into the field and Henry gets more ammunition out 727 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: of a drawer. How he knew there would be ammunition 728 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 1: in this particular drawer, I have no idea, This is 729 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: what he says. He shot Jacob once in the back 730 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,719 Speaker 1: as he was running, and then of course in the 731 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,879 Speaker 1: head at close range. She said. Two of the little 732 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,839 Speaker 1: girls ran into the barn when he was chasing after 733 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,920 Speaker 1: their dad. He shot both of them there. He said 734 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,320 Speaker 1: that the wife and the farmhand were dead. In the house, 735 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: three little girls were still alive. He said he killed 736 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:07,759 Speaker 1: two of them with the shotgun, one with the hatchet. 737 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,280 Speaker 1: And he said, I had no idea that the baby 738 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 1: was there, otherwise he probably would have killed her too, Emma, 739 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: He just didn't know. He said that after that it 740 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,320 Speaker 1: was all done, he dragged Jacob's body to the barn 741 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,759 Speaker 1: and covered him and the little girl's up with the 742 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: hay and then he pushed the bodies of the rest 743 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 1: of the family through the trap door into the cellar. 744 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,640 Speaker 1: Of course, he says his memory is hazy, as killers 745 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,880 Speaker 1: will say, but he said this all started with an accident, 746 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 1: two shots, and that was it, and he was defending 747 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 1: himself and then everything else just sort of fell apart, 748 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 1: and the sheriff it basically feels like, well, there's inconsistencies 749 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,840 Speaker 1: which looked like, you know, the killer really this was 750 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 1: an attack, a full offense, not defense. So then the 751 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 1: rest is just kind of what happens to Henry, which 752 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,920 Speaker 1: is not very much. What do you think about his 753 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:56,000 Speaker 1: version of events? 754 00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 2: You know, the problem with Henry's confession has to do 755 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 2: with how much access Henry had at the crime scene 756 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,239 Speaker 2: to visualize everything, to be able to see everything, to 757 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,759 Speaker 2: see what the victims look like in the casket, you know, 758 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 2: because he's giving some specific information that's adding up to 759 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:18,839 Speaker 2: you know, what actually happened in terms of the types 760 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 2: of injuries, you know, and who he had, you know, 761 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,680 Speaker 2: the hatchet was used on. So this is where it 762 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:29,240 Speaker 2: gets hard to truly assess. You know, is this bona 763 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,000 Speaker 2: fide information that he knew because he's a killer, or 764 00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,200 Speaker 2: is this something he could discern because he had so 765 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,360 Speaker 2: much access to the crime scene, the victims' bodies. Was 766 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,800 Speaker 2: this a coerced confession and now details are being fed 767 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 2: to him, you know, by the interviewers, by law enforcements, 768 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,400 Speaker 2: so it adds up with what they think happened. You know. 769 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,440 Speaker 2: It is interesting that he's saying that this was you know, 770 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:57,239 Speaker 2: Jacob initiating, so he's minimizing that, and that the two 771 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,359 Speaker 2: shots to the mom and to the farm hand were 772 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,120 Speaker 2: accidental over the struggle of the shotgun. There is a 773 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:09,440 Speaker 2: that's a level of minimizing in my opinion. So I'm 774 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:13,440 Speaker 2: not sure you know what to to really make but 775 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:18,120 Speaker 2: it's close enough to the evidence, though I still have 776 00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:21,120 Speaker 2: problems with, you know, the number of people that were 777 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,439 Speaker 2: shot in the head inside the house and the lack 778 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,880 Speaker 2: of the you know, the blood pools you know that 779 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,800 Speaker 2: would show where they were laying. Henry's confession is close 780 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:36,400 Speaker 2: enough at least on face value that yeah, you know 781 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:41,400 Speaker 2: this this could be indicative that he's truly the killer. 782 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 2: Just there's there's those issues that I'm having about, you know, 783 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:47,799 Speaker 2: his knowledge of the crime scene and whether or not 784 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,080 Speaker 2: he was fed to details during the interview. 785 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't put it past the sheriff to 786 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,640 Speaker 1: really just try to nail this down. So he pleads guilty. 787 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:00,719 Speaker 1: The judge even says, are you sure you want to 788 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,320 Speaker 1: do that? He says, yes, He's given life in prison 789 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:07,279 Speaker 1: with hard labor. I'm surprised, you know that this was 790 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,160 Speaker 1: even an option, that they were even going to have 791 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 1: him plead guilty. But I don't know. I don't know 792 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 1: why that happened. I was expecting him to hang, for sure. 793 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: So later on he says, I'm recanting and it's too late. 794 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,560 Speaker 1: He says, really, you think I could have killed all 795 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 1: those people? And you know there's ample evidence that he 796 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:31,880 Speaker 1: likely did. And he dies five years into his life sentence. 797 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:36,360 Speaker 1: I mean, he's thirty six. So he died at forty one. Ironic, 798 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,279 Speaker 1: so did Jacob Wolf died at forty one. But I 799 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,960 Speaker 1: don't know, something something might be amiss there in the 800 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:43,920 Speaker 1: prison system. 801 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:48,400 Speaker 2: I don't know, well, hard labor. That might take a 802 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:49,040 Speaker 2: toll on you. 803 00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, in North Dakota in the winter, Oh for sure. 804 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,520 Speaker 1: Emma Wolf is adopted by her mom's sister and she 805 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 1: lives the rest of her life near Turtle Lake, and 806 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 1: she dies at eighty four in two thousand and three. 807 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,840 Speaker 1: So this story is something else. And I think we 808 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,280 Speaker 1: don't do a lot, but we do talk about families 809 00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:09,359 Speaker 1: who have all been murdered in the impact of that, 810 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:13,439 Speaker 1: and we've had stories where you have a survivor and 811 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,200 Speaker 1: thankfully oftentimes they go on and live a good life. 812 00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,360 Speaker 1: And it sounds like that's what happened here. But what 813 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,880 Speaker 1: is nauseating to me is when he essentially makes the 814 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:25,919 Speaker 1: statement that well, I didn't even know she was there, 815 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,879 Speaker 1: which indicates that he would have killed her a bait 816 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,160 Speaker 1: and eight month old baby. That is what you're saying. 817 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:36,960 Speaker 1: It's rage, it's road rage, it's rage over cattle and 818 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 1: a dog, and that's it. 819 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:39,160 Speaker 2: You know. 820 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:40,839 Speaker 1: You and I talk about that all the time. Every 821 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,160 Speaker 1: time I hear someone say he would have never killed 822 00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:46,920 Speaker 1: somebody over an affair from fifty five years ago or whatever. 823 00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,080 Speaker 1: I mean. You and I I know both always think 824 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,839 Speaker 1: you don't have any idea what in their head, what 825 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:53,719 Speaker 1: they're saying to themselves, you. 826 00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,279 Speaker 2: Know, And that's a scary part, right, It's just that 827 00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,799 Speaker 2: you don't know who you're dealing with. Sometimes from a 828 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,319 Speaker 2: my own family, when you're talking to the kids who 829 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:07,000 Speaker 2: are now driving, it's like, don't get into some sort 830 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,440 Speaker 2: of beef with somebody on the road, you know, no, 831 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,000 Speaker 2: because you don't know who they are, what they're capable 832 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 2: of doing. And this is the reality is is. You know, 833 00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,160 Speaker 2: Jacob sounds like he talked to some neighbors that he 834 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,319 Speaker 2: was having problems with Henry. You know, he recognized that 835 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,799 Speaker 2: Henry was kind of a jerk, but he probably had 836 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,440 Speaker 2: no idea that Henry would be somebody that would come 837 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:29,000 Speaker 2: over and kill his entire family. 838 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, he did say he was a little 839 00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:36,080 Speaker 1: scared of him, but nothing. He didn't alert any authorities 840 00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:40,360 Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, who knows what a mess. So hopefully 841 00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,839 Speaker 1: next week we won't have something that involves eight victims. 842 00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:49,239 Speaker 1: It particularly children. You know, I always say it's hard 843 00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:50,960 Speaker 1: for me to do the stories about children, but there's 844 00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: sometimes they're so significant and we learn so much that, 845 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,120 Speaker 1: you know, I will visit those types of stories. I 846 00:48:58,120 --> 00:48:59,759 Speaker 1: think they can be important, and I think you and 847 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,480 Speaker 1: I tell those stories compassionately through the lens of the victim. 848 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,880 Speaker 1: Hopefully so that's the goal. 849 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,640 Speaker 2: All victims and especially children need to be remembered. 850 00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:14,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely, Well, next week we'll have a different story. 851 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,000 Speaker 1: I promise I will move heaven and Earth to get 852 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,600 Speaker 1: us something non involving kids, and in North Dakota, in 853 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:25,400 Speaker 1: the wild, in the prairie, even though I love saying prairie. 854 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:28,280 Speaker 1: Have a good week and I'll see you next week. 855 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:30,760 Speaker 2: All right, Kate, thanks again, Thanks. 856 00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,640 Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources 857 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,200 Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried 858 00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,799 Speaker 1: Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi. 859 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:50,320 Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson. 860 00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:52,880 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 861 00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,480 Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 862 00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:57,760 Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 863 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:02,120 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarreff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer. 864 00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,799 Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 865 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:07,040 Speaker 1: Baried Bones pod. 866 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,080 Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 867 00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,080 Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the 868 00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,319 Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and 869 00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:18,760 Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold 870 00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,560 Speaker 1: Cases is also available now.