WEBVTT - BONUS: The Pay Check, Episode 6 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:10.399 Back in the first episode of our series, I told 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:13.560 you a story about my mom and her fight for 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:18.360 pay equality. She was a surgeon who sued her employers, 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:21.200 the State University of New York and the hospital where 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:25.840 she worked, for pay discrimination. After almost ten years, she 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:31.440 won a settlement, but her story didn't end there. After 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:34.280 the lawsuit ended. As a condition of the settlement, my 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:37.800 mom had to stop teaching at the university. She still 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:40.760 kept up a busy career as a practicing doctor, but 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:43.920 she also dedicated a lot of her time to telling 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:47.760 other women about her experiences so that they wouldn't have 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:51.280 to go through what she did. My experience has taught 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:53.760 me that legal solutions are not solutions at all. What 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:56.680 I lost and what I won were not equal, not fungible, 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:00.040 not interchangeable. I thought I was going to make and 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:02.720 change their ways, and I'm sorry to say that didn't occur. 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:06.160 She was talking to a seminar of other women physicians 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:10.240 who came to learn about gender equity in medicine. Even 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:13.360 though getting a settlement is a win, she was telling 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:16.560 them not to do what she did. Legal action is 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.920 the court of last resort. If you litigate, be prepared 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.720 to leave You may recover money, it will never be 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:27.040 enough to cover your legal fees. You may keep your 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:29.720 job if you really want it. You may get some 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:34.680 workplace change that's not likely, and you can sometimes recover 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:36.640 emotional damages, but to do that you have to be 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:38.640 seen by a psychiatrist who says that you've been so 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:41.200 damaged by this that probably they're going to say you're 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:45.400 too damaged to continue as a doctor. Inn she started 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:48.960 a consulting firm to help other women in medicine. She 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:52.600 explains her mission in this YouTube video, which warning has 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:55.840 some cheesy clip art noises in the background. If you 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:58.240 want to be a woman doctor, know that you're going 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:02.560 to face unique challenges male colleagues will not face. You 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.800 may not get recognized for your worth. I don't think 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:09.400 that's fair. I've been where you are, and I've learned 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:12.679 a few things I really didn't want to know. It's 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:15.000 my mission to make sure that you don't have these 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:17.720 same struggles and you don't have to go it alone. 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:22.280 She wanted to advocate for other women, but more than that, 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:27.080 she wanted to help other women advocate for themselves. She thought, 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:29.880 if she could just teach people to be confident, and 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:32.880 strong at work, they could avoid what she had to 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:37.720 go through. Despite everything she experienced at work, my mom 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:41.239 really believed there were things women could do to change 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:46.560 their careers and their lives. There are solutions. You, a 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:49.160 woman physician, can learn to use your gifts as a 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:52.679 woman to have the confidence, the knowledge and the skills 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:55.880 to love you work, to live your life fully and 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:58.200 be the doctor you want to be and be the 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:01.440 doctor your patients deserve. And you can do this by 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:05.200 owning your medical career, being comfortable in the medical workplace, 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:12.560 and being able to when you look at the world, 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:16.640 you know what the population like, Where is our place like? 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:20.080 Where is our value? Will and deserve people who people work? 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.320 And Mason one meaning salary for Mandy is greater than 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:30.880 women in the six percent of major occupations women. What 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:35.120 do I want? We want to end gender inequality and 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:39.000 to do this we need everyone involved. When women are 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:41.880 financially stronger, it's good for their families, it's put money 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.600 into the economy, in the markets, it's good for everybody. 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:46.520 If I was a woman, I'm not sure I would 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:49.960 want to write on my show anyway. Yeah, we do 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:54.119 want to write out of them. We cannot do succeed 0:03:54.560 --> 0:04:00.920 when half of us a head bay. Welcome back to 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:05.920 the Paycheck. I'm Rebecca Greenfield. For the last five weeks, 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:11.560 we've deconstructed a big, expensive, global problem, the pay gap. 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:16.080 We've interviewed people like Christina chen Austar, who has been 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:19.560 fighting a pay discrimination case for thirteen years and counting. 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:22.560 We looked at Iceland, which has done more than just 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:25.479 about any country to fix its pay gap, but still 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:28.640 hasn't been able to and we investigated how all of 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.160 this is pretty much banked into the way we think 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:34.279 about women and men and work. If you're a little 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:41.200 depressed after all of this, well so are we. So far, 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:45.000 the pay gap has proved pretty impossible to solve, but 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:47.040 most of us aren't just going to sit here and 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.240 accept that will be paid less than men for our 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:53.960 entire careers. This desire to do something on a personal level. 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:57.599 It's partly why books like lean In by Cheryl Sandberg 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:01.200 are so popular. Back into uny thirteen when the book 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:04.239 came out, her advice that women should just lean into 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:07.600 their careers and advocate for themselves if they want to succeed, 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.120 it made sense to a lot of women. She was 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:15.000 speaking the truth, and she got people fired up. The 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:17.839 very blunt truth is that men still round the world. 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:20.599 But what about the women's revolution? I think we're stalled. 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.240 I think we're stalled, and I think we need to 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:28.159 acknowledge that we're stalled so that we can change it. 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:32.120 Are you trying to reignite the revolution? I think so. 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:35.919 But in the five years since Lenin came out, the 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:40.200 gender pay gap hasn't really budged. Women are still less 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:43.400 likely to get promoted than men and more likely to 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.239 be seen as aggressive when they try to ask for raises. 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:50.960 So does anything work? Is there any way for an 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:56.080 individual to ensure she gets the money she deserves? For 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:58.520 most of my life, I kept all of my financial 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:02.720 foibles to myself. Not having money was my secret. Gabby 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.839 Done started her podcast Bad with Money three years ago 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:09.200 as a way to confront her personal finance struggles head on. 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:13.080 She says the show is about finances and feelings and 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:17.320 has interviewed dozens of people, including financial experts, her family, 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.760 and even a financial therapist. Well, it's perfectly acceptable for 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:23.680 people in their twenties to cry over relationship problems or 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:29.839 friendships dissolving. There's an added shame to discussing finances. I 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.719 spoke with her about what she's learned and how we 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:35.919 can take action in our own lives even when we 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:42.359 know the pay gap is bigger than us. Hi, Gabby, 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:44.599 thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, thank you 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:51.239 for having me. So why did you start bad with money? 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:55.159 It started out being about like finances and feelings essentially, 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.160 which is what Season one was basically talking to people 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.000 about the taboo of talking about money. Why is it 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:02.520 a thing we don't want to talk about? Why is 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:06.400 it so isolating? What does everyone know that we don't know? Essentially, 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:09.120 and just sort of like spilled my own guts about 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:13.360 my family and um inability to figure out retirement or 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:17.560 savings or or any medical bill or anything. So our 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:19.880 show is also about money, but in a different sense. 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:23.200 Was there a time in your life when you realize 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:25.920 that the gender pay gap or other pay gaps were 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.200 affecting you? Yeah, definitely. I Mean there was a media 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:32.160 company that I worked for where a guy had the 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:35.960 same job as me, but he was getting paid dollars 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:40.800 more a year simply because he had asked Basically, like, 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:42.920 there was a day where we all were drinking or something, 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:45.120 and we shared our salaries and this one guy, and 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:47.480 I do not think he was doing a better or 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:50.040 more efficient job than me or or another woman that 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.680 I worked with. And um, he was like, well, I 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:54.920 had worked on a TV show prior to working here, 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:57.080 and so I knew the type of salary that you 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:59.559 should ask for in a mediate setting. So I asked 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.400 for that. They made the match my prior salary, and 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:04.920 I was like, you can do that, Like I had 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:09.000 no idea. That was like really alarming, But I think 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:11.840 that had to do more with the blind confidence of asking. 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.040 Like a lot of marginalized people, so I'm also queer 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:17.040 and a lot of marginalized people. It's like a similar 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:19.480 thing where you you're sort of so happy to be 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:22.000 there and so happy to be like even in the 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:23.840 interview that like, in my mind, I would just think 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:27.520 they're gonna pull this opportunity away as soon as they can, 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:29.840 Whereas like I think a lot of guys go in 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:34.720 and they're like, yeah, of course I should be here obviously. Um. 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:37.080 And there's also this other thing that I talked about 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:39.880 a lot, which is the uncompensated emotional labor of being 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.679 a minority at a job, Like hey are you doing 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:44.679 your job, but are you also doing the job of 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:47.360 like checking other people's work to make sure it isn't 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:50.800 homophobic or racist, and also like doing like outreach or 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:55.400 activities or pasting you know, nights for for other groups 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:58.800 and like advocacy or whatever, and all that stuff is uncompensated. 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:02.640 As women, we're often getting advice about how to be 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:06.160 better at work. We should lean in or advocate for 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:09.840 ourselves more. As someone with a show in this genre, 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:12.679 I'm wondering what you think about advice like that that 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:16.720 prescribes all these ways for women to act at work. Well, 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:19.880 it is. It's a double edged story because you're essentially 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:23.160 then saying be like the boys so that you can 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:25.640 treat other people poorly. Is what I've always kind of 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:28.640 taken from that, Like instead of being like, Okay, let's 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.240 all figure this out and maybe dismantle this, and like 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:33.160 I struggle with that on the show a lot. It's 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:35.760 like I get a lot of feedback from people that 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:37.760 are like super happy that it's kind of a show 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:40.760 about dismantling stuff, but then also people who are like, yeah, 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:42.320 but we gotta work within the system, and so I 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:44.160 try to talk to both sides. I try to talk 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:47.200 to people that I feel both ways about it, because 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:49.720 I don't really still don't know exactly how I feel 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:51.840 about it. There's part of me that's like, yeah, I 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:54.320 get in there, be just like the boys and do 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:55.959 the thing and blah blah blah. But then it's like, well, 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.920 why are we valuing this type of behavior and this 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:02.880 type of cut throughout situation where you have to behave 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.520 a certain way in order to succeed? Why are why 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:08.640 are we mirroring this thing that isn't good and it 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:10.880 and it is also only a certain type of woman 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:13.800 who even can do that. If you're like, hey, ladies, 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:17.200 go in and be brassy and take charge, and then 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:19.080 it's like, okay, that's cool, but like can a black 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:21.439 lady do that? Is like a disabled woman going to 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:26.920 be taken seriously doing that. Um, it's it's advice that 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:29.679 might work for some people, but it also leaves a 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:32.720 lot of people in the dust. Yeah, I want to 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:35.640 get into that more, like how do you tell women 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:38.160 to help themselves when, like you said, you know that 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:41.880 so much of this as kind of structural. Yeah, it's tough. 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:44.800 A big part of the show is eliminating the shame 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:47.880 in the isolation. So I took a lot of this 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:50.920 stuff to be personal. Right, I'm bad. This is a 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.880 rejection of me. I'm bad with money because I'm worthless. 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:57.880 I'm I'm a stupid person and I have a deficiency 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:02.120 and I'm maybe even like more only inferior. Right, So 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:06.120 once you eliminate that aspect of it, then you can 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:09.480 kind of start to go from there, because you just 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:11.920 need to be aware you can do things to help 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:15.520 yourself obviously, like I still have coupons, I still work 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:17.760 with a budgeting app. Like I'm not like, you know, 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:20.920 throwing bricks through Bank of America windows. Um, I'm still 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.400 trying to like do these little things. But you have 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:28.920 to be aware that it's stressful enough without the already 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:31.880 without adding on the whole thing of like I'm this 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:34.520 is this is in no part structural, and this is 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:36.960 all an individual failing. I want to talk a little 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.600 bit about your career outside of the podcast, because that's 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.280 far from the only thing that you do. Um, you know, 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.760 you're in the entertainment industry. And we did an episode 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:48.400 a couple of weeks ago where we talked to Monique 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:51.400 about her negotiation with Netflix, and that she said she 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.760 got offered five thousand dollars and that was much lower 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:57.200 than the rates other comedians were getting, and she didn't 0:11:57.280 --> 0:11:59.400 end up taking the deal. And she told us how 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.440 the Negotia Asian went, and it was interesting because she 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:06.840 was like, it's really hard to make the case for 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.000 your value in these situations and to to say like 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:12.480 this is what I'm worth. Has anything like that ever 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:14.480 happened to you? Or like, how do you know that 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:17.600 you're negotiating a fair rate in a situation like that. 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:20.640 I try to think long term about things. If I'm 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.080 working on something that is for a lower pay, in 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:25.959 my mind, I go okay, but then I can what 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:27.920 can I turn that into? Can I turn that into 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.160 a TV show? Can I expand it into a film? 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:32.160 But then other projects, I'm like, okay, it needs to 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:34.440 be this amount of money. I I you know, I 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:40.080 think it's very interesting when a woman like Monique actually 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:42.600 says like no, there's a power and no. Right, So 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:45.400 now she says no, and hopefully that leads them to 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.640 rethink the amount that they offered the next black woman. 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:51.560 I hope that's what happens. That's very idealistic, but maybe. 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:55.040 So your show started out as more of a personal journey, 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.000 but it's changed since then. What would you say the 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.800 mission of the show is now. I think the point 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:07.440 of the show is two teach people something, to broaden 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:11.040 this out from, because it's such an isolating topic and 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.600 you think that every problem that you have is is 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.520 your own. This is like a weird example, but my 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:21.840 dad's an alcoholic, and I thought everything that I was 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.640 in my personality and all the effects from it were 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:29.480 just my problem, Like, oh man, this is what I'm like. 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:33.280 I got messed up in this very particular way. Um. 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:36.000 And then I went to alan On and everyone there 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:38.040 had the same the words had been coming out of 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:40.440 my mouth. They had the same exact problems, and I 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:42.880 was like, oh my god, I'm not even special. Um. 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:45.520 And so part of what I want is to teach 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:50.920 people with the show, but I also want people to go, oh, like, 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:54.280 I'm hiding this thing, and I'm hiding you know the 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:56.200 ways that this and this and this are affecting me. 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:58.560 And I didn't even realize that there was like this 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:02.360 huge umbrella where all of us are are being affected 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:05.720 by this. Yeah, and I think that's something that we're 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.240 trying to get at with this show too, where it's 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:10.400 like that it can feel very personal to you something 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:12.839 that happened in your career or at work or to 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:16.520 someone you know, and actually it's it's something that's happening 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.640 to lots of women and we just don't talk about it. Yeah, 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:21.800 so hopefully talking about it on this episode will solve 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.600 the whole problem. God, I hope, so really down to 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.920 solve things. So a lot of this is very depressing. 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:31.600 Um in like a lot of our episodes feel depressing. 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:35.080 How do you not get depressed doing this show and 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:39.040 talking about this all the time. I don't know. I 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:41.480 guess because I meet so many people on the podcast 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:43.080 who are doing all these things I've never heard of. 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:47.400 I'm constantly uplifted by, like the individual people that I 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:49.240 talked to you on Bad with Money. Like, obviously the 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:53.840 topics are depressing, and like the general outlook and like 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.360 the world in the government and everything is depressing. But 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:58.240 then like there will be people that come on that 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:00.600 are just like even like journe List, that are doing 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.040 amazing work and like deep dives into these things that 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:04.760 then you know, you go, oh, well, nobody reads long 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:08.360 reads anymore. But their their work is amazing, and it's 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:11.320 stuff that you don't necessarily hear about um. But the 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:14.640 individual people that I talked to have just been you know, 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:16.880 there's a guy running for president that we had on 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.640 the show that is committed to universal basic income and 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:22.000 and I don't know that he'll even get on a ticket. 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:28.600 But there's like UM, stuff that is small and and uplifting, 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:31.280 and that comes from like the individuals that I talked to. 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:40.040 Gabby is still not entirely sure what works and what doesn't, 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:44.280 but hearing from other people and sharing information is helping 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:48.840 her figure it out. And she's not alone. Women's empowerment 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:54.720 seminars and workshops and conferences have become wildly popular. Women 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.720 want to come together to talk and learn about how 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.920 to solve their own individual pay gaps. We should be 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:06.960 cynical about anything that promises a magic bullet solution to sexism, 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:11.360 and most of these workshops probably aren't worth your money. Still, 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.160 there can be real value in meeting other people who 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.880 are having the same problems as you are. Jordan Holman 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.720 flew out to Seattle in March to attend the Get Money, 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.920 Get Paid conference hosted by the group Ladies Get Paid 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:31.640 to see if she could get empowered? So what do 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:33.960 you do when you're just one person trying to fight 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:37.640 the gender pay gap? When you're Claire Washerman, you hold 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.640 a conference. So a lot of us feel very overwhelmed 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.600 because we think, well, what can I possibly do? So 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:45.800 that's a big goal of the conference is getting people 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.680 to walk out with you know, the bravery to do 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:51.120 something and also what actually am I doing at work 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.480 on Monday? Ladies Get Paid is dedicated to, as his 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:58.120 website puts it, helping women embrace their ambition and take 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:02.320 control of their careers. Conferences like Get Money, Get Paid 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:06.320 are part of a lucrative industry claiming to teach women 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:11.439 how to be strong, confident professionals. These conferences traffic and 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:15.159 good feelings in women's empowerment, but usually come at a 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:20.480 high cost. Get Money, Get Paid was no exception. Tickets 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:24.840 cost two hundred and seventy nine dollars originally, but organizers 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:28.359 quickly figured out that was more than women were willing 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:33.159 to pay. They marked them down, but only if you 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:44.960 brought a friend. I arrived at the conference around nine am. 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:49.159 The morning started with the usual depressing statistics, so I 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:50.840 think one of the more statistics that I read that 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:53.879 relaying st kick my button. Starting this from the fact 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:56.800 that black women in this country it makes forty four 0:17:56.800 --> 0:18:01.640 billion dollars a year in revenue, but less getting DC 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:06.159 funding at an average, Ladies Get Paid puts a distinctly 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:10.159 millennial spin on its events. The vibe in Seattle was 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:30.440 part soul cycle, part Susie Orman, supposedly affirmative channing helps 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:34.080 you get rich. It was kind of weird, but a 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:36.720 lot of people seem to feel good just talking about 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:39.080 money out loud. A lot of what we're doing is 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:42.119 stripping away taboos of not only money, but even just 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:45.879 women declaring to each other that, wow, I am having anxiety. 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:48.720 Nowt work, I'm struggling, right, that's a taboo to say 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:53.159 that maybe the ultimate thing women feel anxiety about is 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:57.320 how to advocate for themselves in the workplace. A lot 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.119 of women think if they can just figure out how 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:03.840 to negotiate better, they'll finally get the money they deserve. 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:08.080 Ladies Get Paid knows this audience and the speakers had 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.200 a lot to say on the subject. If they don't 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.720 get into a place where you feel good thinking about 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:17.439 so when you think about your no text number. A 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:18.840 lot of way you want to do here. So if 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:21.119 you get a really good email from a client or 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:24.359 someone internally in the company, say it. But it's somewhere 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:27.040 where you have mayload all you If you know you've 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:29.640 done your research for what you should be making, that's 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:32.960 when you have a decision to make. But salary negotiation 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:36.439 is a pretty fraught subject for women. We're told that 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:39.080 we're bad at it, but we're also punished when we 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:42.480 do it well. We don't speak up for ourselves or 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:46.119 we're too aggressive. It's one of the reasons why the 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:49.880 Advice and Lean In was ultimately disappointing for a lot 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:54.280 of people. Claire says, the conference focuses so much on 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:59.480 salary negotiation because that's what women want, so we had 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:01.879 I mean, at this point, eight women have written in 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:03.760 to us. When they sign up, they say what they're 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.200 most interested in, and the reason we've done so much 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:09.679 salary negotiation curriculum is because they've told us overwhelmingly that 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:12.320 they just need help. You also want to be careful 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:15.000 of not giving women bad advice in terms of just 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:17.440 go in there and ask for the biggest number and 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:19.880 you know it's like, there's a lot of nuances to this. 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:23.200 You have to be very strategic and aware of your 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.040 the context of your relationship if you're a woman of color, 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:28.840 even more so. Uh So, it's certainly not a one 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:33.200 size fits all even among women. What qualifies is actionable 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.879 for one person might not work for someone else. Can 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:40.919 money get paid? Actually seemed to get this. The speakers 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:47.479 were black, Indian, divorced gay. Still, the realist lessons happened 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.800 out in the audience, with people swapping tips based on 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:55.960 their own life experiences. For instance, I talked to Maria Popolio, 0:20:56.359 --> 0:21:00.760 are freelance user experience designer in Seattle, when she learned 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:04.200 that the agencies she worked for was billing clients almost 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:07.560 seven times more than what they were paying her. She 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:11.080 came back with one of the most effective negotiating tactics 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:14.760 in the book. I took census data, like the U. 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:17.879 S Census, and I printed it out, and I was like, 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:21.040 this is what I'm going for, And through all of that, 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:25.240 that's where I developed my tactic of the weirdly specific number. 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:28.720 When Maria goes into a job interview, instead of saying 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:32.439 she wants, say sixty an hour, she'll go in with 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:36.680 something like fifty seven. It plays into a concept called anchoring, 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:40.760 which basically says that whoever throws out the first number 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:45.760 in a negotiation automatically gets the upper hand. In general, 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:49.520 people like round numbers, so if you throw out a 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:54.160 weirdly specific number to start with, whoever you're negotiating with 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:58.600 is likely to counter with another weird number, say fifty 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:02.840 dollars an hour instead of fifty. Because it's also helpful 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:06.440 to go into a negotiation with research to back you up, 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:09.800 Maria looked at the senses to figure out what other 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:13.720 people in the same industry we're making, because census data 0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:16.880 is just a aggregate of all of the numbers rolled 0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:19.080 up into one and they rounded up to the nearest dollar. 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:21.520 But you get non traditional numbers, you get numbers and 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:23.919 ends and three or seventh, and so I've kind of 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:26.560 taken that going forward. I'm like, every time I present 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:28.320 a salary, it's going to end in the three or 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:33.280 seven anchoring. The conversation may not help you seem less 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:36.600 aggressive when you try to negotiate your salary, but it 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:39.320 might just help you get closer to the number you 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:42.560 want to hit. And when you've been shut down over 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:45.840 and over again in your career, that little bit of 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:50.040 success can be huge. Even though the conference spent a 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:53.920 lot of time focusing on actionable advice. When I asked 0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:57.240 Comisha Turner, an artist in Seattle who has a day 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:00.280