1
00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:07,160
Speaker 1: This is mesters in Business with Very renaults on Bloomberg Radio.

2
00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:13,480
Speaker 1: This weekend on the podcast, I have yet another special guest.

3
00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:18,200
Speaker 1: Extra special guest, Samarica Cohne is the chief investment officer

4
00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,720
Speaker 1: at Black Rocks, where she manages E t f s

5
00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:26,800
Speaker 1: and index investing. Black Rock is ten trillion dollars their

6
00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:31,480
Speaker 1: E t F businesses over three trillion their index businesses

7
00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:37,760
Speaker 1: also over three trillion UH. Samara is consistently on everybody's

8
00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:42,720
Speaker 1: list of most influential women in finance. But that's not

9
00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:44,280
Speaker 1: why you want to listen to this. You want to

10
00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,440
Speaker 1: listen to this because there really are very few people

11
00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:52,199
Speaker 1: in the world more knowledgeable about managing e t f s,

12
00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:57,800
Speaker 1: managing indexes. What passive really means, how people should be

13
00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:03,480
Speaker 1: thinking about the actual engineering of products if you want

14
00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:08,840
Speaker 1: to have broad market exposure or specific types of beta. Really,

15
00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna stop talking and just say, with no further ado,

16
00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:20,520
Speaker 1: my conversation with Samaricane, this is mesters in Business with

17
00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:25,880
Speaker 1: Very Results on Bloomberg Radio. My extra special guest this

18
00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:30,600
Speaker 1: week is Samaricane. She is Black Rocks chief investment officer

19
00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,920
Speaker 1: for E t F s and index investments. Black Rock

20
00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:39,120
Speaker 1: manages about ten trillion dollars. The E t F business

21
00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:44,200
Speaker 1: is about three point to seven trillion. Uh. Samaricane, Welcome

22
00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,440
Speaker 1: to Bloomberg. Thank you so much, Barry. I'm happy to

23
00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:49,480
Speaker 1: be here. I'm happy to have you here. I have

24
00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,480
Speaker 1: so many questions to ask you, but I have to

25
00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,200
Speaker 1: start out with your education, which we usually skimp over.

26
00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,240
Speaker 1: So you graduated you pen with a b us in

27
00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:05,560
Speaker 1: economics and finance at Wharton, but you also had a

28
00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,600
Speaker 1: b a in theater arts. How has theater training helped

29
00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,799
Speaker 1: in your financial career? First, Barry, when you hear theater,

30
00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,960
Speaker 1: a lot of people might think that I was an actor,

31
00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:18,720
Speaker 1: So I feel like I need to start with the

32
00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,840
Speaker 1: fact that I was decidedly a backstage kid. My love

33
00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,359
Speaker 1: of theater was very much on the production design, directing, uh,

34
00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,560
Speaker 1: you know, behind the scenes side, and that has definitely

35
00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,480
Speaker 1: helped me um across the course of my career. But

36
00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,600
Speaker 1: I have to tell you, I came to the University

37
00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,400
Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania to be a theater major, and I left

38
00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,400
Speaker 1: with the dual degree in finance and theater. So finance

39
00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,519
Speaker 1: was something I discovered because I knew I was good

40
00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,600
Speaker 1: at math. In fact, when I started college, I didn't

41
00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,520
Speaker 1: really need to take any math classes because I had

42
00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,760
Speaker 1: all of this credit and I missed it, And so

43
00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,000
Speaker 1: I discovered markets and economics and it felt like math

44
00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,720
Speaker 1: with a purpose. So and I got to combine the

45
00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,000
Speaker 1: fin angel degree with the theater degree, which made my

46
00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,519
Speaker 1: parents much more comfortable with the fact that I was

47
00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,360
Speaker 1: spending all of my summers working for regional theater companies basically,

48
00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,360
Speaker 1: but it was a big part of learning who I

49
00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:15,080
Speaker 1: am and today in my role, I often remember being

50
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:20,480
Speaker 1: told that um casting is of directing and putting the

51
00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:22,800
Speaker 1: right person in the right seat is a lot about

52
00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,400
Speaker 1: leading any business. So it definitely has played a part throughout.

53
00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,680
Speaker 1: Really interesting, So you you end up in turning your

54
00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,800
Speaker 1: Goldman sacks on the trading floor pretty early in your career.

55
00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,840
Speaker 1: Tell us what that was like and how theatrical was that. Well,

56
00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,800
Speaker 1: actually I came to Goldman out of business school. I well,

57
00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,240
Speaker 1: my first job was actually a black Rock. That's where

58
00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:46,920
Speaker 1: I came out of college. I was a black Rock

59
00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,400
Speaker 1: for four years, went to business school, and part of

60
00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,960
Speaker 1: why I went back to school after black Rock was

61
00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,520
Speaker 1: in my head I thought maybe I could further combine

62
00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,200
Speaker 1: this love of finance and love of theater and how

63
00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,200
Speaker 1: might I do it? And I loved the idea of

64
00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,840
Speaker 1: going back to school. I'm kind of a voracious learner

65
00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,200
Speaker 1: and I'd worked hard, and I liked the idea of

66
00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,720
Speaker 1: meeting other people and seeing what was out there after

67
00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:13,680
Speaker 1: four years of working. And in that summer and actually

68
00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,520
Speaker 1: in the process of figuring out where I wanted to

69
00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,400
Speaker 1: work for the summer, I visited a trading floor and

70
00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,480
Speaker 1: I walked onto the trading floor and I thought, this

71
00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,800
Speaker 1: is it. It's a lot like theater. It's a lot

72
00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,480
Speaker 1: like that, like multitasking, high energy, collaborative environment where lots

73
00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,240
Speaker 1: of things are happening at the same time, and I

74
00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:36,640
Speaker 1: thrive in that. And so actually the theater, the trading

75
00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,920
Speaker 1: floor I found pretty theatrical and that really worked for me. Yeah,

76
00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,479
Speaker 1: there's a there's a buzz, there's an electricity on a

77
00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,680
Speaker 1: big trading floor, which I think is one of the

78
00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,440
Speaker 1: things that's lost from old Wall Street. You can replace

79
00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,200
Speaker 1: it with more efficient algorithms and technology, but man, when

80
00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,920
Speaker 1: you walk onto a big floor, you just feel that

81
00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,240
Speaker 1: there's nothing like that, and ever have a des ire

82
00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,400
Speaker 1: to become a trader? Was that did that ever appealed

83
00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:07,440
Speaker 1: to you until I walked onto the trading floor. Um,

84
00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:09,719
Speaker 1: the idea really scared me. And you know what, I

85
00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,040
Speaker 1: actually I don't think I've ever told anybody this. I

86
00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,960
Speaker 1: did not proactively send my resume to the securities division.

87
00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,440
Speaker 1: They reached out to me as part of a diversity

88
00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,360
Speaker 1: hiring effort to get more women onto the trading floor.

89
00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,360
Speaker 1: And the reason I didn't send my resume was it

90
00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,760
Speaker 1: sounded really intimidating to me. And so I think that's

91
00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,680
Speaker 1: just an important thing to note, is that sometimes if

92
00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,839
Speaker 1: something's interesting, even if it's intimidating, it's worth checking out.

93
00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:35,719
Speaker 1: Because I knew, and yes, there weren't a lot of

94
00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:37,919
Speaker 1: women on the floor when I walked out there, but

95
00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,640
Speaker 1: it was really clear to me that I would. You know,

96
00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,000
Speaker 1: once I got my bearings and learned to speak the language.

97
00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,240
Speaker 1: It can be an intimidating place at first, but but

98
00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:46,800
Speaker 1: I knew it would be a great fit for me.

99
00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,120
Speaker 1: So let me make sure I understand the chronology of

100
00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,599
Speaker 1: your career. So you intern at black Rock, then you

101
00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,760
Speaker 1: work at Goldman for like sixteen years something like that,

102
00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,840
Speaker 1: and then you boomerang back it's a black Rock. Did

103
00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,520
Speaker 1: I did I get that right, Yeah, pretty much. I

104
00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,240
Speaker 1: went to black Rock out of college, and then business

105
00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,919
Speaker 1: school from black Rock, and then Goldman from business school,

106
00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,440
Speaker 1: and then back to black Rock. M that's really really interesting.

107
00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,200
Speaker 1: I heard the phrase black Rock boomerangs. Is this a thing?

108
00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,840
Speaker 1: Do people like work at black Rock leave and then

109
00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,560
Speaker 1: you know, magnetically get drawn back? What's that about? In

110
00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,280
Speaker 1: my case, it was definitely a thing. I don't know

111
00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,000
Speaker 1: the like what the total stats are, but it's definitely

112
00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,960
Speaker 1: true for other people. I mean, people's careers are marathons

113
00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,520
Speaker 1: and and not sprints and and you know, part of

114
00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,479
Speaker 1: my marathon, an important part of my marathon actually was

115
00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,320
Speaker 1: that sixteen years in Goldman. I think had it not

116
00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,320
Speaker 1: been for that, I wouldn't have the seat I currently

117
00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,680
Speaker 1: occupy a black Rock. So I'm pretty grateful for it, um.

118
00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,479
Speaker 1: But also I think my my history with black Rock

119
00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,400
Speaker 1: and my passion for the firm and its purpose did

120
00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,200
Speaker 1: draw me back as well. So let's talk about that

121
00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,839
Speaker 1: seat you have at black Rock. You recently were promoted

122
00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,120
Speaker 1: to chief Investment Officer of E t F s and

123
00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:09,760
Speaker 1: Index Investments. That sounds like a pretty serious job, especially

124
00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,640
Speaker 1: when we consider at black Rock. You know, it's well

125
00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,800
Speaker 1: over three trillion dollars in assets. Tell us a little

126
00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:20,440
Speaker 1: bit about your new job responsibilities. I'm really excited about

127
00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,000
Speaker 1: the new job and and even more than than me

128
00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,920
Speaker 1: being in the job, I'm excited about the fact that

129
00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,920
Speaker 1: we have a chief investment officer role for E t

130
00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,800
Speaker 1: F S and index and it actually is broader than

131
00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,400
Speaker 1: the e t F book. It's our whole indexing book

132
00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,920
Speaker 1: and in the and what it means in short, is

133
00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,560
Speaker 1: that I'm accountable for for investment performance in our E

134
00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,480
Speaker 1: t F and index book, which I love telling people

135
00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:47,440
Speaker 1: because sometimes they look at me and they say, well,

136
00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:51,040
Speaker 1: I don't really understand that is an investment performance the

137
00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,080
Speaker 1: out performance of the benchmark. And aren't you Smarrow at

138
00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,720
Speaker 1: E t F and index person the benchmark? So what

139
00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,080
Speaker 1: is investment performance? And we done a lot of work,

140
00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:05,040
Speaker 1: um really in partnership with our clients and articulating what

141
00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,560
Speaker 1: that is. And in the case of E t F

142
00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,640
Speaker 1: S and index, it's two things. It's first what we

143
00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,720
Speaker 1: call market quality. What do you expect in an E

144
00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,240
Speaker 1: t F That's how it trades in the market, secondary

145
00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,920
Speaker 1: market volumes, market quality in stressed scenarios, premium discount behavior.

146
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,400
Speaker 1: There's a bunch of metrics that we monitor with respect

147
00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,760
Speaker 1: to E t F market quality. Part of my job

148
00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,800
Speaker 1: is to be accountable for performing on those and the

149
00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,400
Speaker 1: other part is delivering on those index outcomes, which in

150
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,679
Speaker 1: a world where what we can index is evolving as

151
00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:43,280
Speaker 1: more markets and more strategies are indexed. UM is also

152
00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,400
Speaker 1: important that we deliver to investors what they have signed

153
00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,520
Speaker 1: on for with that index objective. And so that's what

154
00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,360
Speaker 1: it means to be the CIO of an E t

155
00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,600
Speaker 1: F and index book. So you mentioned UM market quality

156
00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:01,280
Speaker 1: and performing within the market. You know, was only m

157
00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,320
Speaker 1: less than two years ago. We had the big COVID

158
00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:08,439
Speaker 1: sell off in March, and people were concerned that e

159
00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,040
Speaker 1: t f s were not going to be able to

160
00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,560
Speaker 1: manage the pressure. They wouldn't be able to deal with

161
00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,559
Speaker 1: all of the stress, you know, all the usual criticisms

162
00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,920
Speaker 1: of indexing plus additional criticisms of e t F s.

163
00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:28,600
Speaker 1: How did ETFs perform during that collapse from February to April.

164
00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,160
Speaker 1: The people who were concerned before the COVID bout of

165
00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,000
Speaker 1: volatility had a huge and rich set of data to

166
00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:42,559
Speaker 1: draw from. UH when we emerged from those volatile markets.

167
00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,400
Speaker 1: That showed that actually ets have really supported stressed markets,

168
00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,920
Speaker 1: added liquidity, added transparency, and that was on a full

169
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:56,400
Speaker 1: display over the COVID volatility period, particularly in the bond market,

170
00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,320
Speaker 1: where if you think about what was happening across the world,

171
00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,520
Speaker 1: there were traders who were, you know, setting up their

172
00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,160
Speaker 1: their home desks there at their home, you know, uh,

173
00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:09,720
Speaker 1: you know, hundreds of that one trading floor that we

174
00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,559
Speaker 1: talked about became thousands and thousands of home office trading floors.

175
00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,920
Speaker 1: And the bond market in particular still has largely operated

176
00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,800
Speaker 1: in an over the counter bilateral basis, and the bond

177
00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,040
Speaker 1: market for for that reason and a whole lot of

178
00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,679
Speaker 1: other reasons, you know, in the treasury market in particular,

179
00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,400
Speaker 1: became very hard to access, while e t s you

180
00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,240
Speaker 1: could see on your phone, they were transparent, they were trading.

181
00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:34,760
Speaker 1: One of the stats that I love to quote that

182
00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,040
Speaker 1: I think is quite indicative of what was happening over

183
00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,760
Speaker 1: that period is, you know, we had an investment grade

184
00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,040
Speaker 1: ETF that traded on one of those volatile days in

185
00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:47,120
Speaker 1: March March nine thousand times on exchange, and of course,

186
00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,079
Speaker 1: every time something prints on an exchange is price formation.

187
00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:55,520
Speaker 1: Whereas it's underlying bonds. The top holdings of that underlying

188
00:10:55,559 --> 00:11:01,880
Speaker 1: bond portfolio traded on average thirty times, so N versus thirty.

189
00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,960
Speaker 1: There just wasn't um price formation happening in the bond market,

190
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,080
Speaker 1: but it was happening in the E t F market

191
00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,800
Speaker 1: with buyers and sellers meeting on exchange, which meant that

192
00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:13,840
Speaker 1: there wasn't a whole lot that needed to happen in

193
00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,360
Speaker 1: the underlying bond market to to support that. And so

194
00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,680
Speaker 1: really uh and what's interesting is you can see a

195
00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,520
Speaker 1: whole lot has been written by policymakers around the world

196
00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,120
Speaker 1: about this supportive role that ets have effectively played in

197
00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,559
Speaker 1: in stressed markets. The you know, SEC has written about it,

198
00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:35,040
Speaker 1: the BOE aiasco UM. So it's been exciting to have

199
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,120
Speaker 1: this really rich data set to drawn looking back at

200
00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,400
Speaker 1: that period, the bond discussion is really interesting. And I

201
00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,160
Speaker 1: was referring to equities, but we'll circle back to that.

202
00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,920
Speaker 1: You know a lot of people have complains that bond

203
00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,360
Speaker 1: markets are thin. You know, you have a few thousand stocks,

204
00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,600
Speaker 1: but there are just countless, countless numbers of bonds, many

205
00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,960
Speaker 1: many more times of bonds, and there are stocks. It's

206
00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:05,320
Speaker 1: seems like the bondy t F universe handled the crash

207
00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,839
Speaker 1: or plunge maybe use a more accurate word because we're

208
00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,800
Speaker 1: so short, handled it pretty well. Everybody. We saw a

209
00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,400
Speaker 1: lot of money rotate out of stocks into bonds as

210
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,720
Speaker 1: a safe harbor. Didn't seem like there were a lot

211
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:21,000
Speaker 1: of dislocations or wild price anomalies or an inability to

212
00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,680
Speaker 1: get an execution. The bondy t F universe seemed to

213
00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,600
Speaker 1: behave really well. The bondy t F universe behaved well,

214
00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,360
Speaker 1: and as a result, the bond market behaved better. And

215
00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:34,520
Speaker 1: that's one of the things that I get really excited

216
00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:38,640
Speaker 1: about because the fact is I'm really a lifelong um

217
00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,040
Speaker 1: markets reformer. That's a passion that I have. I've spent

218
00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,440
Speaker 1: my entire career in the markets, and and my desire

219
00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,880
Speaker 1: at this point is to contribute to making them better,

220
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,559
Speaker 1: making them safer, more efficient, more transparent. And we can

221
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,200
Speaker 1: measure how bondy tfs actually did that in the bond market.

222
00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:00,000
Speaker 1: And in fact, interestingly, as a result of the demand

223
00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,040
Speaker 1: and for bondy t fs that came out of the

224
00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:06,439
Speaker 1: COVID period, we have seen the bond market uh start

225
00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:10,240
Speaker 1: to trade uh more electronically big pieces of the bond

226
00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:13,920
Speaker 1: market portfolios. In the bond market, bond dealers have started

227
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:18,400
Speaker 1: to really invest in algorithmic pricing, which creates more transparency,

228
00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,320
Speaker 1: more trading, and more liquidity. So we've written about and

229
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,559
Speaker 1: we've observed this what we call a real virtuous cycle

230
00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,080
Speaker 1: of how e t f s have been integrated into

231
00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,000
Speaker 1: the fabric of of capital markets across the board. And

232
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,880
Speaker 1: we can definitely talk about equities, but how in the

233
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,840
Speaker 1: bond market it has been good for bondy tfs and

234
00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,600
Speaker 1: also good for bonds. So when we had the Great

235
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,440
Speaker 1: Financial Crisis into oh eight oh nine, I thought that

236
00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,840
Speaker 1: was pretty much the end of the argument that indexing

237
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,520
Speaker 1: is problematic for markets or ETFs aren't going to be

238
00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:51,599
Speaker 1: able to handle pressure, that that should have been the

239
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,160
Speaker 1: last word in that. I was kind of surprised to

240
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,960
Speaker 1: see those same arguments still hanging around. And then March

241
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,280
Speaker 1: uh the execution seemed to go off without a problem.

242
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,160
Speaker 1: There were a handful of individual stocks that sort of

243
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,559
Speaker 1: their pricing get a little wacky. But is this the

244
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,160
Speaker 1: end of the passive is destroying the markets and E

245
00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,080
Speaker 1: t F or dangerous argument? Or is there are they

246
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,760
Speaker 1: just going to trot this out every time there's um

247
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,120
Speaker 1: something else to complain about. I'd love your thoughts on that,

248
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,760
Speaker 1: Barry Um. I would hope that it's uh, it's it's

249
00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,320
Speaker 1: closer to the end where we where we can kind

250
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,520
Speaker 1: of look forward to two numerous things that can improve

251
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,320
Speaker 1: the markets. But look, you make an excellent point. I mean,

252
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,280
Speaker 1: to be fair, In two thousand and eight, I was

253
00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,640
Speaker 1: I was on the bond trading floor actually at Goldman

254
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:44,880
Speaker 1: and I didn't know what an e t F was

255
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,560
Speaker 1: like in two thousand eight, you know, in the fixed

256
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,720
Speaker 1: income markets, you didn't you know, we weren't talking about

257
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,280
Speaker 1: what e t f s were. But to your point,

258
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,840
Speaker 1: it is true if we look back at the data

259
00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,920
Speaker 1: during those weeks and months when what was so value

260
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,040
Speaker 1: by investors was transparency and it was so feared was

261
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,880
Speaker 1: the lack of transparency when all this information was coming

262
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,320
Speaker 1: out about bank balance sheets and what was on balance sheets.

263
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:10,560
Speaker 1: We did see a real pick up in volume and

264
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,040
Speaker 1: velocity of et F trading in two thousand and eight

265
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,800
Speaker 1: and in two thousand nine, and we have repeated stressed

266
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,600
Speaker 1: market events like the big energy sell off that happened

267
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,040
Speaker 1: at the end of twenty fifteen, the you know what

268
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,960
Speaker 1: we call the vulpocalypse that happened in February of eighteen,

269
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,640
Speaker 1: where we have repeatedly seen E t F performed well

270
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,920
Speaker 1: under pressure and actually adds support to high velocity markets.

271
00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,960
Speaker 1: And yet this still you know, comes out from time

272
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,760
Speaker 1: to time, which feels like kind of the language that

273
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,960
Speaker 1: comes out around any sort of disruptive technology. But I

274
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,960
Speaker 1: do think, like we talked about, the data is pretty clear,

275
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:54,440
Speaker 1: you are definitely responsible for a lot of capital. And

276
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:56,960
Speaker 1: that leads me to a quote of yours that I

277
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,040
Speaker 1: need an explanation on. At Black Rocks. Is absolutely nothing

278
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:06,560
Speaker 1: passive about index investing, explain. I am on a mission

279
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,480
Speaker 1: Ferry to replace the word passive with the word index

280
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,520
Speaker 1: when people talk about E T S and index investing,

281
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:19,200
Speaker 1: because how we manage our portfolios is extremely active. And

282
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,520
Speaker 1: it goes back to that conversation we had about what

283
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,400
Speaker 1: investment performance is in the context of an E T

284
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:29,920
Speaker 1: F and index investment book, it is delivering the index outcomes,

285
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,960
Speaker 1: which the reason E T s and and index monthes

286
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:38,960
Speaker 1: exist is that indexes aren't often easily investible. They could

287
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,640
Speaker 1: have thousands and thousands of securities in them, and so

288
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,640
Speaker 1: depending on how much you you you know, are investing.

289
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,240
Speaker 1: You can't perfectly replicate the index, and so you need

290
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:53,080
Speaker 1: to optimize to deliver that index outcome with as little

291
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,200
Speaker 1: friction as possible. So that's delivering the index outcomes. And

292
00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,240
Speaker 1: then there is that huge dimension of eat e F

293
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,920
Speaker 1: market quality ensuring that the e t f s tracked

294
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,600
Speaker 1: the underlying portfolios with you know, we call it premium

295
00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:13,119
Speaker 1: discount behavior, ensuring that they're strong secondary market quality, transparency

296
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,639
Speaker 1: and liquidity in the e t F s. So we

297
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,000
Speaker 1: have teams of people, not robots, but actual people and

298
00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:21,200
Speaker 1: a lot of them, by the way, or women around

299
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:26,520
Speaker 1: the world, who are actively managing our market quality and

300
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,320
Speaker 1: investment performance in our et F and index book. So

301
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,080
Speaker 1: that's why there is absolutely nothing passive about it. Huh.

302
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:37,879
Speaker 1: Really interesting. We've gone through these periods where there are

303
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:44,400
Speaker 1: these spasms of anti indexing um sentiment, and it goes

304
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,119
Speaker 1: all the way back to Jack Bogel and the early

305
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:52,399
Speaker 1: days of indexing in the nineties seventies. Indexing is an

306
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,280
Speaker 1: American it's we've heard people call it Marxist. It's going

307
00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:02,400
Speaker 1: to lead to market crashes. Um. What what's your perspective

308
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,680
Speaker 1: when you hear these things crop up. By the way,

309
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,639
Speaker 1: the latest one is it's anti competitive and it's going

310
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,280
Speaker 1: to lead to price fixing and a lack of lack

311
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,680
Speaker 1: of competition due to all this ownership. How do you

312
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,639
Speaker 1: respond to those sort of backwater law review silliness? I

313
00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:25,680
Speaker 1: begin with and we've written on this uh this year

314
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,040
Speaker 1: in in something we call the Investor Progress Report, But

315
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,040
Speaker 1: we estimate that there's about a hundred and twenty million

316
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,800
Speaker 1: people around the world who are accessing our e t

317
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:40,320
Speaker 1: F and index capabilities. UM. There are more people accessing

318
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,520
Speaker 1: the markets and investing in the markets and participating in

319
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:48,080
Speaker 1: economic growth on their terms than ever before in history.

320
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,320
Speaker 1: And from my perspective, there's really nothing that's more American

321
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:57,080
Speaker 1: than that. UM. So that's how I think about it.

322
00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,320
Speaker 1: I think ETF spring markets. They bring market out access,

323
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:05,119
Speaker 1: they bring transparency, and increasingly they bring choice to lots

324
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,920
Speaker 1: of individual investors who are saving for retirement and thinking

325
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,440
Speaker 1: about their financial futures with the help of ets in

326
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,920
Speaker 1: ways that they couldn't before. And a lot of the

327
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,000
Speaker 1: you know, one of the pieces that we that we

328
00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,480
Speaker 1: put out recently points out to the fact that a

329
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,440
Speaker 1: lot of the households who own e t s in

330
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,440
Speaker 1: the United States have have media and incomes of AD dollars.

331
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,240
Speaker 1: So you're talking about investors who simply didn't have market

332
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 1: access before, who, as a result of e t f

333
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:39,880
Speaker 1: s and indexation can can get diversified strategies so manage

334
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:44,159
Speaker 1: their risks the way more sophisticated institutional investors have and

335
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,399
Speaker 1: participate in the markets. So let's talk a little bit

336
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 1: about product engineering. What tell us a little bit about

337
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,520
Speaker 1: what that means. What sort of projects are these teams

338
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:59,520
Speaker 1: working on. It's one of those phrases that definitely resonates.

339
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,040
Speaker 1: I'm glad that it resonates. It's something that we've been

340
00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,320
Speaker 1: using for for a few years now. And that team,

341
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,680
Speaker 1: which is global UM. There are product engineers in really

342
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:15,080
Speaker 1: every major region in the world, and they do two things. First,

343
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,880
Speaker 1: they helped design the operating models and the investment process

344
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 1: for for new e t F s. UM how will

345
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 1: creation redemption work, What are the characteristics of the index

346
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:30,120
Speaker 1: what you know? How will the index rebalance those types

347
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,000
Speaker 1: of things when it comes to new E t s.

348
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,480
Speaker 1: And the second piece of what they do, which is

349
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,920
Speaker 1: actually really critical, is they continue to manage the structure

350
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 1: of the product over its lifetime. So sometimes we will

351
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,520
Speaker 1: identify something in one of those market quality statistics that

352
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,920
Speaker 1: you know, let's say it seems to be trading a

353
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 1: little bit wide in the secondary market, and we'll go

354
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,800
Speaker 1: out and we'll talk to market makers and ask what's happening,

355
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,480
Speaker 1: and they'll say, well, it's a little tricky to hedge

356
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,480
Speaker 1: because of X, Y and z. And sometimes we can

357
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,480
Speaker 1: change something structurally and how the market interacts with the

358
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,320
Speaker 1: e t F to improve its investment performance and market quality.

359
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,320
Speaker 1: And that's the purview of our product engineering groups. So

360
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,360
Speaker 1: I tell all of our teams, you know, I want

361
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,639
Speaker 1: all of our teams to be able to explain how

362
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 1: they contribute to the active management of our e t

363
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 1: F and index book. And that's how the product engineering

364
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:29,160
Speaker 1: does by by identifying the operating model and by continuously

365
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 1: assessing and improving it. So let's talk about the rest

366
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:39,359
Speaker 1: of your team. You have portfolio engineers, risk managers, platform architects,

367
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 1: market structure developers, and products operating model designers. That sounds

368
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,359
Speaker 1: like some very intriguing job descriptions. Tell us about what

369
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 1: a market structure developer does or some of those other

370
00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:00,159
Speaker 1: really interesting titles. I think they're all exciting jobs, and

371
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,119
Speaker 1: I do have to make a plug for for anybody

372
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 1: who is is considering going into investing. It's never a

373
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,639
Speaker 1: dumb question to ask what is the job? Because there

374
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 1: are so many different jobs. And I remember when I

375
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 1: was in college, I was almost scared to ask that.

376
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,680
Speaker 1: But but as you just pointed out, and it's it's,

377
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:20,359
Speaker 1: you know, fun for me to kind of hear you

378
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 1: walk through it. There are so many different types of

379
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 1: ways to be an investor and to participate in an

380
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 1: investment platform. So really we do three things. Number one,

381
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 1: we manage day in and day out. We are responsible

382
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 1: for the investment performance of our funds, how we're managing

383
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:42,439
Speaker 1: the portfolios through rebalances, through corporate actions UM, and how

384
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 1: we're managing et F market quality. That's number one. Number

385
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:51,879
Speaker 1: two is we are continuously improving our platform and the

386
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 1: Aladdin technology that we use to manage our portfolios to

387
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 1: make things that can be lower touch, lower touch, to

388
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: give us capath city to spend more time on you know,

389
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:07,120
Speaker 1: new markets and new strategies. So that platform architecture piece

390
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 1: how we create scale. That's kind of bucket too of

391
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 1: what we do. And the third part is ecosystem leadership,

392
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 1: and you talked about um. You know, we talked about

393
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 1: how we engage with liquidity providers with stock exchanges. Earlier

394
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 1: you talked about the COVID volatility, and I think it's

395
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 1: really important and with a really interesting case study in

396
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 1: the US that a lot of the volatility guard rails

397
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 1: that had been put in place by the u S

398
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 1: stock exchanges over the five years preceding March twenty twenty,

399
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: market wide circuit breakers limit up, limit down, like the

400
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: whole limit up limit down framework was really only ten

401
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 1: years old, had been tested a few times and had

402
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:53,719
Speaker 1: its biggest test in March of We engage very deeply

403
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 1: with stock exchanges. Remember in the u S. E t

404
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 1: f are between thirty and forty percent of daily trading

405
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: ball ume. So those volatility guard rails really matter from

406
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: a market quality perspective. So focusing on the external environment

407
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: for our ets, that's what we mean by ecosystem developer.

408
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,360
Speaker 1: You mentioned Aladdin. I just finished a couple of months

409
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: ago the book Trillions by Robin Wigglesworth, and he describes

410
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: the Aladdin system really as the technological backbone of black

411
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 1: Rock from the very beginning and the secret source to

412
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 1: that successful scaling. Tell us a little bit about for

413
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,120
Speaker 1: for a person who maybe not familiar with Aladdin, tell

414
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 1: us a little bit about that. Aladdin is how we

415
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: we arm our investment managers, both Black Rocks investment managers

416
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: and the investment managers who are who are Aladdin clients

417
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: outside of Black Rock with best in class Rook management tools.

418
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 1: And it is the DNA of the firm. And I

419
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: can say that actually because as I've shared with you,

420
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: I was at the firm pretty much. It's at the

421
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: beginn thing black Rock was started in and I started there.

422
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: And the reason black Rock was founded really was a

423
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 1: group of UM fixed income market specifically mortgage backed security

424
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 1: experts who said, we can take this technology that's been

425
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 1: built on the cell side and deliver it directly to

426
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 1: clients as a fiduciary to help them create better outcomes.

427
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: So giving putting better risk management tools directly in the

428
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: hands of clients was really black Rocks founding mission, and

429
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: that's what Aladdin has grown in today. Black first it

430
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 1: was the system that all of black Rocks portfolio managers used,

431
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: and then it became a system that UM that other

432
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: asset managers wanted to to access as well. And it

433
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: is really the backbone of how we we look at

434
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 1: risk and we run our portfolios. Really intriguing. So let's

435
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about E. S. G UH generally

436
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 1: and then we'll we'll dig down a little more specifically. UM.

437
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 1: Your boss, Larry Thing famously pens a letter each year

438
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: to Corporate America's tell us a little bit about UM,

439
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 1: why we do that and and what's the thinking behind that.

440
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 1: Larry writes a letter to start a conversation UM, and

441
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: it's really a conversation with our clients who are owners

442
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 1: in all of these companies across Corporate America, and what

443
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: we think are the top of mind themes for the

444
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 1: year ahead. And it's a good integration of everything we've

445
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: heard from clients and how we're thinking about the markets

446
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 1: and how we're thinking about risk. And it becomes really

447
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: a point of of bringing people together, us inside the

448
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: firm and us with our clients to to take a

449
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: look at the world and what we've learned over the

450
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: past year and what we want to bring to to

451
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: the year in front of us. Very interesting. Let's talk

452
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: a little bit about corporate governance. How do you think

453
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: about that in terms of affecting risk. The conversation about

454
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: corporate governance is one we've spent a lot of time

455
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: thinking about because as as you know, but it probably

456
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 1: bears um, you know, speaking too explicitly. In a lot

457
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: of cases, we vote the shares on behalf of the

458
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: clients whose money we managed, and the question is, um,

459
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: do those clients want to vote the shares themselves. And

460
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 1: something we did in December and it's actually gone live

461
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: this month or it went live at the beginning of

462
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: two UM was work to give our institutional clients and

463
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 1: some of our co mingled fund clients, but a good

464
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 1: portion of our assets the option whether they want to

465
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: vote their shares or not. So it's early to say

466
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 1: are they going to take it us up on it

467
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 1: or not, But that will be very instructive to us

468
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: because our job is to help them create better financial futures,

469
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: create better portfolio outcomes. In some cases they may want

470
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 1: to participate in the corporate governance process themselves. In other

471
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: cases they may want to intentionally delegate it to us.

472
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: And we have a very big what we call investment

473
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: stewardship function where we you know, we're very transparent. We

474
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: publish the criteria in terms of what we think is

475
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: important when we engage with companies. But some investors feel

476
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: like well, that that engagement with companies is part of

477
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: the value proposition that I hire my asset manager for.

478
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: And some investors may feel Nope, I'd like them to

479
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: manage my assets, but I want the votes, and we

480
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: are really hopeful of increasingly being able to give those

481
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: investors choice. Let's talk a little bit about E s

482
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: G generally. You know, for a long time it's captured

483
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: a lot of mind share. People have talked about it,

484
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: especially with climate change in the focus on the environment,

485
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: but it doesn't seem like E s G is captured

486
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: as many inflows as it has, you know, a sort

487
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: of mind share. What what are your thoughts on that.

488
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: Is this going to be a persistent um gap or

489
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: are we seeing more people, especially uh younger generations, more

490
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: interested in E s G investing. I think flows are

491
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: actually the tip of the E s G iceberg, And

492
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: what you don't see below the surface is the integration

493
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: and evaluation of E s G risk across portfolios, and

494
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: that has captured a huge amount of time and attention

495
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: from investors and and certainly from us, and it's actually

496
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: really exciting from from an investor perspective. That reminds me

497
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: again dating myself here, but when I started at black Rock,

498
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: I uh, it was in in and I think in

499
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: the five years since black Rock was founded, interest rates

500
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: had dropped something like three d basis points right like

501
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: late eighties, call it ten percent on the bond to

502
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: seven percent. And one of the big topics of risk

503
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: in the fixed income market with mortgage pre payments and

504
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: so figuring out how to model that, articulate that make

505
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: that transparent um better than anybody else. Again a big

506
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: part of black Rocks value prop that it was bringing

507
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: to investors. And we are doing the same thing today

508
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: with climate risk and with E s G integration, and

509
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: we have integrated E s G metrics across our portfolios

510
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: and transition risk metrics, so we can assess what sort

511
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: of risks are there UM. And that's the really the

512
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: first step. It's measurement and transparency and then decisions around

513
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: capital commitment and risk taking. So, so I want to

514
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: restate a little bit of what you're saying. I've traditionally

515
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: heard E s G described as I want to invest

516
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: in a way that parallels my personal values. But you

517
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: really describing E s G as a risk management tool

518
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: as a way to screen out potentially problematic UM concerned

519
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: sectors companies? Whatever? Am I? Am I overstating that? Or

520
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: is that a fair translation? Both statements are actually true.

521
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: It's a spectrum. So what we need to do is

522
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:25,719
Speaker 1: give our clients choice and and clarity and help them articulate,

523
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: because often they're not even sure where they want to

524
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: be in that spectrum. But I would say the um

525
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: majority of the conversations that we have right now are

526
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: much more understanding. Looking at my portfolio today, what are

527
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: my E s G risks? Broadly? What are my climate risks?

528
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 1: What are my risks to a net zero transition? And

529
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: then the second question is how do I want to

530
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: manage those? Really really really intriguing. Let's talk a little

531
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: bit about no carbon and low carbon. That was kind

532
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: of a topic a couple of years ago. I've always

533
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: been a little perplexed by that because if you back

534
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: out the big carbon producers in the SMP five, everybody

535
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: else who's left our giant carbon consumers? Um, how should

536
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: we think about something like carbon? Is that the most

537
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: attractive approach to dealing with I'm concerned about climate change

538
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: or or or global warming. It depends on what your

539
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: goal is. And again I think a big part of

540
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: what our work has been is to offer a spectrum

541
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: um for investors who are trying to do different things,

542
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: and even more importantly, and this has been meaningful to

543
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: me as a personal investor, offer transparency around what it

544
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: all means. So something we did in December is we

545
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: published a metric for all of our public index and

546
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: all of our ets called the I t R metric

547
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: Implied Temperature Rise. And the beauty of the metric is

548
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: it's really easy to understand. You can pull up anything

549
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: on our website. You can see the I t R

550
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: metric UM and you can see is it paris aligned

551
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: or not, meaning is it you know, one point five

552
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: degrees or lower or is it higher? And we show

553
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: the spectrum of of bands and ranges and um and

554
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: what you can see is you know, nine to your

555
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: point of companies in in ms C I equally are

556
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: not paras aligned. But step number one is getting transparency

557
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: in terms of your book and then deciding do you

558
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: want to take the first step and move to something

559
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: that is a screened version of that index or go

560
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: much further and take more targeted exposures. And what we

561
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: hear from clients is, you know, they want different things.

562
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: So putting out that spectrum and putting out those measurements really,

563
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: you know, looking to be champions of transparency in this world,

564
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: which as it emerges, can kind of become a tower

565
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: of babble in terms of the different languages and different metrics.

566
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: So arming investors, both institutional and personal investors with the

567
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: tools to understand what does this mean for me um

568
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 1: that's really been the priority. That's really interesting. The old

569
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: Peter drug aligne is if you can't measure it, you

570
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,479
Speaker 1: can't manage it, and having metrics is sounds like a great,

571
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: great start. So let's talk a little bit about what

572
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: it's been like the past a couple of years with

573
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: the pandemic and then last summer delta it felt like

574
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: it was ending and then O Macron hit, I keep

575
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: hearing all these farms are trying to get their staffers

576
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,879
Speaker 1: back into the office and on the trading desks. Tell

577
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 1: us what what you guys are doing are are you

578
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: gonna have everybody back in the office, You're gonna be

579
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: remote you're gonna be hybrid. What what you're thinking about

580
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 1: the world going forward. We are going to pilot a

581
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 1: hybrid model, and we actually started piloting it in certain

582
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: parts of the world, including New York City prior to

583
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: oh macron. And what it was was, you are welcome

584
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 1: to back to come back to the office for five

585
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: days if you would like to take two remote days.

586
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: Take two remote days and and we'll see how that

587
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: plays out. And then omicron kron happened and we um

588
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 1: uh kind of you know uh pulled back on the

589
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: pilot and we'll put it back in hopefully in a

590
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: few weeks. I'm I'm in the office right now. I

591
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 1: like being in the office, and I think we've had

592
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of learnings. I mean, of course, our

593
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: number one priority is making sure that people are safe

594
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,800
Speaker 1: and that people are healthy. Um. But healthy doesn't just

595
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 1: mean you know, being safe from the from from the virus.

596
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 1: It means being mentally healthy. And one of the things

597
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 1: we've learned is is a lot of us really missed

598
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: the connection with other people. So creating an environment where

599
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: you can have those moments of human connection in the office.

600
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 1: And of course there were moments of human connection that people,

601
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 1: you know, particularly with kids of different ages, were we're

602
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,240
Speaker 1: having at home that they didn't have before. So trying

603
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,879
Speaker 1: to take the learnings from the pandemic and employ them

604
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 1: in a way that make people healthier physically and healthier mentally.

605
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,439
Speaker 1: That's what the goal is. But I imagine we will

606
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: be experimenting for a while, both based as conditions in

607
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: the world change and uh and as we see how

608
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: it works in our offices. Yeah, the the challenge has

609
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 1: been how do you manage corporate culture over zoom or remotely,

610
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: and black Rock has a very specific corporate culture. Lots

611
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 1: of other farms are trying to maintain that. Finding that

612
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: right balances seems to be a work in progress that

613
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: we're all going to be dealing with over the next

614
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: couple of quarters or years for all we know. Absolutely.

615
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about the rising demand

616
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: for e t F. It seems that lots of institutional

617
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: traders are driving E t F demand. Can can you

618
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: talk to that a little bit? I'm curious as to

619
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: your perspectives. What might surprise you to hear is one

620
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: of the biggest adopters of of ETS has been other

621
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: asset managers, so institutional asset managers, you know, like you know,

622
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 1: Black Rock zone asset managers outside of the index business

623
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: who are integrating e t s into their own pursuit

624
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: of alpha. Generally to you know, use e t s

625
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: as a cash equitization tool to look at e t

626
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: s alongside other sources of market data like um futures

627
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: contracts or swap contracts to look at options on e

628
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: t s. Often we've seen and this was actually a

629
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 1: very interesting story going into the Brexit referendum. There weren't

630
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 1: a lot of volatility plays out there, but there were

631
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: some UK We had a UK equity market e t

632
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: F and with options when options ecosystem around it and

633
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: options open interest went up eighteen hundred percents into the

634
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: referendum because it was a way to play volatility. And

635
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,280
Speaker 1: sometimes that would be an asset managers first experience ants

636
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: of an e t F because they were looking for

637
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: some sort of nonlinear payout, and then they would become

638
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 1: more interested in integrating e t f s as another rapper,

639
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: another tool in their overall toolkit in in making money.

640
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: So that has been one of the largest sources of

641
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 1: adoption to BTS. I have a very vivid recollection I

642
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: want to say, fifteen or twenty years ago hearing certain

643
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 1: institutions say, or institutional fund managers say, Look, we want

644
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: to get exposure either to broad equity market or to

645
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,320
Speaker 1: this specific sector. But our due diligence and our research

646
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,919
Speaker 1: process takes so long that by the time we pick

647
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: a particular company, a particular manager, a particular investment, the

648
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: move is half over. I could just use the t

649
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: F and get instant exposure to X. Do you still

650
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: see that sort of behavior or am I going too

651
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: far back in history? Nope, we absolutely see that behavior often.

652
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: You know, people will use the e t F as

653
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: a place holder um as they do that research and

654
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 1: figure out where they want that exposure to be specifically,

655
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: So sometimes they have longer term horizons, sometimes they have

656
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: shorter term horizons. But again, this is actually a key

657
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 1: reason why we see that increase in et F trading

658
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: during high velocity markets is they are very convenient and

659
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 1: transparent way to manage risk and pivot exposures during fast

660
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: moving markets, so you can make quick changes to adapt

661
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 1: your risk profile and work into what your longer term

662
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 1: target state might be. And we do continue to see

663
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: that really interesting. Let's talk about thematic ETFs. They seem

664
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 1: to have exploded in popularity UH the past couple of years.

665
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: How exciting is that for you guys to work on

666
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: and what do you see coming down the pipe? What

667
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: what's new and interesting? It's so exciting that we can

668
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: increasingly index new types of strategies and access new type

669
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: of markets and and that's really what we're about, bringing

670
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: the markets to investors on their terms. And you know,

671
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: one of the things that really brought it home for

672
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: me with some of our climate focused e t f

673
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: s was being able to find something that my kids

674
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 1: connected to. My daughter is a big environmentalist. She's a

675
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: part of her school's environmental Action committee, and I think

676
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: she never thought that e t f s were or

677
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,399
Speaker 1: investing was particularly relevant to her, and talking to her

678
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 1: about UH, climate focused e t s, it was a conversation.

679
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 1: So part of how we are bringing more people into

680
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: the markets is helping them connect to the themes that

681
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: are important to them and then helping them use those

682
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 1: as a way to start to construct the portfolios that

683
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: will deliver the outcomes they're looking for. So one of

684
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: the big things that we've seen has been the rise

685
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: of direct indexing. What are your thoughts on that? Is

686
00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: this a challenge to E T F and we've seen

687
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: a lot of big institutions by direct indexing shop, UH,

688
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about your thoughts with that.

689
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: Direct indexing is a is a very important part of

690
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: the index and E T F ecosystem. About half of

691
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: our book actually is direct indexing versus E T S. Increasingly, actually,

692
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: there's also been attention to UH to smaller direct indexing

693
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 1: opportunities more for individual investors where UM we UH we

694
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: acquired a perio to offer that service as well. So

695
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 1: I think direct indexing for individuals for institutions UM fits

696
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 1: nicely into that overall ecosystem. When you come to those

697
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 1: things we talked about around UH, what value the E

698
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: T F rapper brings that secondary market liquidity, the transparency. UM,

699
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 1: that's the role of the ETS play. But there's certainly

700
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,760
Speaker 1: a role for a very important role for direct indexing.

701
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 1: To really intriguing your bio mentions that you're an ad

702
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: a kid for employee networks, can you speak a little

703
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,720
Speaker 1: bit towards that. I know this is like a total

704
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: subject change, but I don't want to not get to

705
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 1: this question. Tell us a little bit about employee networks

706
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,439
Speaker 1: and what are they and what role do you play

707
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: with those. I've been a big beneficiary over the course

708
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 1: of my career of the networking and visibility that comes

709
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 1: from being part of, you know, in my case, women's networks.

710
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 1: It's an opportunity to meet and connect with people you

711
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: wouldn't otherwise know, um and an opportunity to to think

712
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: more intentionally and strategically about your career and maybe expand

713
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 1: your universe of role models. So that's how I've participated

714
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 1: in employee networks and a black rock. One of the

715
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 1: things I love about being a senior advocate for for

716
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 1: many of the networks is I really believe that you

717
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 1: can't do your best work unless you can talk about

718
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 1: your challenges, both inside and outside the office. And a

719
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 1: lot of times these networks create safe spaces for people

720
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: to talk about what they've struggled with, how they've overcomed it,

721
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: and and and I find that really inspiring um and

722
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: and it helps me recruit great people. So so it's

723
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: something that's very important to me. So let's stay with

724
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,800
Speaker 1: that topic. Finances notorious for not having a lot of

725
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 1: diversity or inclusion. I know Black Rock has a couple

726
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 1: of initiatives in that space. UM, tell us about them.

727
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 1: I've spent my career, uh, you know, being asked the

728
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: question of of, well, what's it like being a woman

729
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 1: in finance, and and we could talk about this for

730
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: for a really long time. What's it like being a woman,

731
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 1: what's it like being a mother, what's it like being

732
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: a parent? Um? And and it's always hard when you

733
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: feel different, no matter what, UM, no matter what the

734
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: source of the difference is. I think it can be

735
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 1: very hard to to feel safe and to feel secure

736
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: um amid differences. And that is what we try to

737
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,320
Speaker 1: sell for whether it's with employee networks, whether it's you know,

738
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: creating mentorships and role models. Although I'll have to say

739
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: a lot of my my most memorable mentors weren't necessarily women.

740
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 1: But again, thinking about those challenges which are different for

741
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: for different people, UM, talking about them and making people

742
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 1: feel safe in raising what they are. UM, that's what

743
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 1: we tried to focus on the most, and and probably

744
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 1: I think that's what's changed the most over the course

745
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 1: of my career. I think early in my career, I

746
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: felt the imperative was too you know, not not address

747
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 1: the fact that there were differences and just get out

748
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 1: there and and try to act like everybody else. And

749
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: and that didn't necessarily work for me, but you know,

750
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: it was sometimes hard to talk about that, and so

751
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,800
Speaker 1: talking about it, um uh like and having transparency to

752
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: those things is you know, has really been the first

753
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 1: step and and one that we have to take again

754
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 1: and again. I think it's, uh, it's not an old conversation,

755
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 1: it's not a dated conversation. I am incredibly proud Berry

756
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: that the leadership team of the E T F and

757
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 1: Index platform is majority female. UM and we talk all

758
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,280
Speaker 1: the time about how to increase our diversity, diversity of thought,

759
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: recial diversity, geographic diversity, because we think if we bring

760
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 1: our differences to the table, we'll perform better. So let

761
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,919
Speaker 1: me throw you a curve ball. You're sort of bicoastal

762
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: New York and Boca. How do you split your time?

763
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 1: And given what we've learned about working from home, can

764
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 1: you operate from anywhere you have an Internet connection? I

765
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 1: I live in New York, Berry, I live in New York.

766
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: I'm in the New York City office right now. I

767
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 1: have a home in Florida, and I'll tell you a

768
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,280
Speaker 1: funny story. My my husband loves Florida, so we've always

769
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 1: we've had a home in Florida for a while. He Um,

770
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: he's a he's a an investment manager, a triathlete, he

771
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 1: cycles a lot, he plays a lot of golf. He

772
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 1: uh you know, does some work from down there. But

773
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: I was always in Florida for vacations and weekends until

774
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 1: the pandemic when during that spring lockdown, I spent about

775
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: six weeks there and and liked it more than than

776
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: than I had uh So, but now Florida is uh

777
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,359
Speaker 1: is really weekends and vacations for me. But last night,

778
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: you like the story, my daughter texted my husband and said, Hey, Dad,

779
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: I'm wondering are you coming home tonight or are you

780
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 1: going to be in New York City? And by the way,

781
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: my husband and I were at a restaurant in New

782
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: York City. So the kids like to joke that my

783
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: husband lives in Florida, but um, but actually we are.

784
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: I am mostly here and between May and November, he

785
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: is mostly in New York City as well. Really really interesting, um,

786
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 1: So I know I only have you for so much time.

787
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: Let me jump to my favorite questions that we ask

788
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: all of our guests, starting with tell us what your

789
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 1: stream in these days? What have been keeping you entertained

790
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,359
Speaker 1: when everybody has been stuck at home? I have three

791
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: categories of of things I stream, and I'm sure you've

792
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: heard this before, Barry. The things I watched with my husband,

793
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 1: the things I get my kids to sit down and

794
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,399
Speaker 1: watch with me, and UH, and the stuff I watched

795
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: for myself. So so in each category, my husband and

796
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 1: I we loved ted Lasso, um that was one of

797
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 1: our favorite things of the pandemic. And we also loved Yellowstone. Um. My,

798
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: my kids will not sit down to watch the same

799
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 1: shows together no matter how much I try. So with

800
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: my son, we're watching Boba Fette and The Mandalorian with

801
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 1: my daughter. It's been Emily in Paris. They are fifteen

802
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 1: and thirteen. And you know, I'll tell you from myself.

803
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: I finished the UH, the sequel to Sex in the City,

804
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 1: and just like that, and I loved it. It was,

805
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 1: you know, women around my age talking about dealing with

806
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 1: their teenage kids and finding meaning in their lives. And

807
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 1: I know the reviews were any mixed, but I really

808
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: loved it. We talked briefly, but you didn't give us

809
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 1: any names about some of the mentors who helped shape

810
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 1: your career. Tell us about those folks. I have had

811
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,800
Speaker 1: great mentors and sponsors, and I think it's important to

812
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 1: talk about both. I don't think until more recently in

813
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: my career I understood what a sponsor was. A sponsor

814
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: being somebody who will actually work intentionally to to move

815
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 1: your career forward. But the uh Um Goldman facts. I

816
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: had the privilege of working with John Rodgers who asked

817
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: me to testify to Congress in front of the House

818
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 1: Banking Committee on to represent Goldman, which was the scariest

819
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 1: thing I had ever done. And what John told me,

820
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: which I will never forget, it's it's the scariest things

821
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 1: that once you do, you are the proudest of of

822
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: having done. Um. Marty Chavez, who I also worked for

823
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,320
Speaker 1: a Goldman, was a tremendous mentor, and I think importantly,

824
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: as I said, I've had I've had some great female

825
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 1: role models, but I've had some awesome male mentors. UM.

826
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 1: I think my high school calculus teacher, Judy Konan, probably

827
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: changed the course of my career. So those three are

828
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:13,760
Speaker 1: my biggest mentors at Black Rock. My uh my boss

829
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: Selim rom G are ahead of hr Minish Meta, who

830
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,439
Speaker 1: was the you know, had this job before me. They've

831
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: been great sponsors, and I think being intentional about providing

832
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 1: sponsorship as well as mentorship is something we think about

833
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 1: a lot. Really interesting. I know you read a lot.

834
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 1: Tell us some of your favorite books, and what are

835
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: you reading right now? I am. I'm sure uh you

836
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 1: are as well. I'm a voracious reader and I'm usually

837
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 1: reading multiple books at the time, So the two I

838
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 1: am reading right now, I kind of usually have something fiction,

839
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: something nonfiction. The nonfiction book I'm reading is Digital Body Language,

840
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: which in the you know, uh situation that we're in

841
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: right now, it's fascinating how how how we create a

842
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 1: digital body language, how people respond to it, and what

843
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,399
Speaker 1: you need to think about it. That's my nonfiction book

844
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: right now, and my fiction book I'm I'm a few

845
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 1: chapters in and I'm loving it. It's called um The

846
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 1: Louding Voice, and it's about a young woman, a young

847
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: teenager in a rural Nigerian village who gets married very

848
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:22,760
Speaker 1: young um and and is thirsting for an education because

849
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 1: she wants to find her louding voice. And that's probably

850
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 1: a theme and everything I read about women people in general,

851
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 1: but often women finding their voices and using them. And

852
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 1: one of the books I read recently that that had

853
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: a big impact on the colleague of mine actually gave

854
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: it to me when I was promoted to ce I. Oh.

855
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 1: It was um uh intronewees memoir My Life in Full

856
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 1: and I absolutely loved that book. She started out by saying,

857
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 1: I intended to write a book about my career as

858
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,359
Speaker 1: CEO of PepsiCo and not write about my life as

859
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: a mother and a wife. I didn't want to write

860
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: that book. And what I ended up writing is exactly

861
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 1: that book, because when you're a mom or a parent

862
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 1: and a wife, and and how you show up with

863
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: that to the office, you know, as a CEO. Weaving

864
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,320
Speaker 1: all of that together, she did brilliantly and it was

865
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 1: really moving, really interesting. I have a book recommendation for

866
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:23,720
Speaker 1: your daughter. There's a fascinating book called Windfall, The Booming

867
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: Business of Global Warming by Mackenzie Funk that describe since

868
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 1: your daughter is interested in E. S. G. And it

869
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 1: describes how the entire world of finance slowly started recognizing

870
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 1: investment opportunities both at you know, the individual company level,

871
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 1: the s G level, but also at the venture capital

872
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:53,280
Speaker 1: and startup level. And how Wall Street has arms into

873
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: all these industries that are working on either climate change

874
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 1: or you know, electric cars, and and and that book

875
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 1: is already about five years old, so when they talk

876
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: about firms like Tesla, they're still fairly nascent. Maybe it's

877
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 1: seven years old. But if she's interested in that, it's

878
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 1: a really well written book, and it's really fascinating, she

879
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: may really, uh, really enjoy it. Let's go on to

880
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:23,879
Speaker 1: our next question, speaking of um, younger people, what sort

881
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,800
Speaker 1: of advice would you give to a recent college grad

882
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 1: who was interested in a career in either finance or

883
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 1: investment management. Ask all of your questions, find people, ask

884
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: your questions. There are no dumb questions, and uh and

885
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: if it sounds interesting to you, it's worth having a

886
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 1: conversation about it. I wish I had done that more.

887
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 1: In a lot of ways, I feel like I I

888
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:49,240
Speaker 1: got lucky. I I told you I was the product

889
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 1: of actually a diversity recruiting effort that led me to

890
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: the to the trading floric Goldman. But if it sounds interesting. Um,

891
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: it's worth doing the exploration and networking and finding friends

892
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 1: and just saying hey, can I spend ten minutes and

893
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 1: ask you about your job? Doing that a lot, I

894
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 1: think is an awesome idea, really interesting. In our final question,

895
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,760
Speaker 1: what do you know about the world of investing today?

896
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 1: You wish you knew years ago when you were first

897
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: getting started. If you asked me thirty years ago what

898
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: I thought about the world of investing, I probably would

899
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 1: have said, Gordon Gecko. I mean I was really thinking

900
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: Wall Street and even you know, when I was in college,

901
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 1: that was the that was the vision that I had.

902
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 1: That's what you had to look like to be to

903
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 1: be an investor. Uh. Now what I know is excellence

904
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 1: looks like uh, lots of different things in the world

905
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 1: of investing. And you know, if you're a woman, if

906
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:47,800
Speaker 1: you're a person of color, it's uh, you can be excellent.

907
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: And in fact, if you're a theater major, you can

908
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 1: find a path. I think there is a superpower in

909
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 1: being different. Um, and my mother always suggested that to

910
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 1: me thirty years ago. So so maybe I should say

911
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 1: that's what I wish i'd believed thirty years ago when

912
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:07,800
Speaker 1: I was told, um, now I know it's true. Really interesting, Samara,

913
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 1: thank you for being so generous with your time. We

914
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 1: have been speaking with Samaricane. She is the chief investment

915
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: officer for E T F s and Index Investments at

916
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: black Rock. If you enjoy this conversation, be sure and

917
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 1: check out any of the previous several hundred we've done

918
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 1: over the past eight years. You can find that at iTunes, Spotify, Google, Bloomberg,

919
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: wherever you feed your podcast fix. Check out my daily

920
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: reads at Ridalts dot com. Follow me on Twitter at

921
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:39,880
Speaker 1: rid Halts. I would be remiss if I did not

922
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:43,800
Speaker 1: thank that crack staff that helps put these conversations together

923
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 1: each week. Marx and Ascalchi is my audio engineer. Paris

924
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: Wald is my producer. Sean Russo is my researcher. Artika

925
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: val Brunn is our project manager. I'm Barry Hults. You've

926
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.