Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's crib a production of Shondaland Audio in
Speaker 1: partnership with iHeartRadio. What advice would you give to a parent, like,
Speaker 1: if they suspect a friend of theirs has MVP, what
Speaker 1: would be an appropriate way to recognize and support them
Speaker 1: without overstepping any boundaries.
Speaker 2: I understand how uncomfortable this is. I understand how terific
Speaker 2: it is to think that someone in your life is
Speaker 2: doing this. So I think we just all have to
Speaker 2: keep in mind, like what the stakes actually are. If
Speaker 2: this is happening, you have to report it. We always
Speaker 2: recommend to people that they report it to CPS and
Speaker 2: law enforcement because it is a matter for both of
Speaker 2: those entities. And as my colleague, Detective Weber always says,
Speaker 2: report it to both and hope that one of them
Speaker 2: knows what they're doing.
Speaker 1: Hello, everybody, Welcome back to Katie's CRIBB. How'd you like
Speaker 1: that intro? You're getting a really chill Katie today, isn't
Speaker 1: that interesting? And I got a great night sleep last night.
Speaker 1: That's not the norm at all. I think it's like
Speaker 1: my body's in full on preparation because I'm about to
Speaker 1: embark on a whole bunch of days where I don't
Speaker 1: have any childcare support. Adam is super busy in pretzel Land.
Speaker 1: My parents aren't here, my nanny isn't here, et cetera, etc.
Speaker 1: So it's like I'm in the calm before the shit storm. People.
Speaker 1: I'm really excited about today's episode. It's probably one of
Speaker 1: the most interesting Katie's Crib episodes we've ever done. I
Speaker 1: didn't know much about the topic. I've done a ton
Speaker 1: of research in prep all for our guest today, who
Speaker 1: goes by the name Andrea Dunlop. Andrea is amazing. She
Speaker 1: is an author, she is a consultant, She is a
Speaker 1: podcast host herself, and she is coming on the pod
Speaker 1: today to talk all about something called Munchausen by Proxy
Speaker 1: and what her personal connection is to the topic. Her
Speaker 1: previous novels include Losing the Light, She Regrets Nothing, We
Speaker 1: Came here to Forget, Broken Bay, and her most recent one,
Speaker 1: Women Are the Fiercest Creatures. Andrea is the host, like
Speaker 1: I mentioned, of a true crime podcast called Nobody Should
Speaker 1: Believe Me, and the show is dedicated to stories about
Speaker 1: Munchausen by Proxy, and she talks about what her experience
Speaker 1: was like working closely with people that have been through
Speaker 1: such a painful situation. She's also the co creator of
Speaker 1: Munchausen Support, which is a nonprofit dedicated to providing resources
Speaker 1: for frontline professionals, families, and survivors dealing with Munchausen by proxy.
Speaker 1: Andrea lives in Seattle, Washington with her husband and her
Speaker 1: two children, Fiona and Column Welcome to Katie's Crib. Andrea, Hi,
Speaker 1: Andrea Hi. It's such a pleasure to meet you.
Speaker 2: Oh so nice to meet you too.
Speaker 1: Thank you for sending me so many books. I'm so
Speaker 1: impressed by the amount of things you have written. Our
Speaker 1: listeners are all cut up in the know from our
Speaker 1: intro to today's episode of How Impressive You Are. Munchausen
Speaker 1: by proxy is something that a lot of people don't
Speaker 1: know about, other than like the things they might have
Speaker 1: seen in movies. You know a few storylines here and there.
Speaker 1: Can you explain to our audience what exactly Munchausen bi
Speaker 1: proxy is?
Speaker 2: Yes, and thank you, Thank you so much for having
Speaker 2: me on, Katie. Is such a pleasure to be here
Speaker 2: with you. So munchhause On bi proxy is the criminal
Speaker 2: act of exaggerating, inducing, or fabricating illness in your child Munchausen,
Speaker 2: which is called the official DSM. That's basically when when
Speaker 2: someone does those same things themselves, so again exaggerating, inducing
Speaker 2: or fabricating an illness in yourself for the purposes of
Speaker 2: sympathy and attention. Munchausen by proxy is the word I
Speaker 2: use the most because that's the one people are familiar with,
Speaker 2: if they're familiar with it at all, right, But then
Speaker 2: I think that also adds to a lot of the
Speaker 2: sort of confusion and mystery around the topic. They are
Speaker 2: pretty closely related. But of course, wow, Munchausen biproxy is
Speaker 2: especially important because it involves abuse of a child, whereas
Speaker 2: Munchausen does not.
Speaker 1: And when you have Munchausen or Munchausen by proxy, do
Speaker 1: they know what they're doing or is it different case
Speaker 1: by case.
Speaker 2: That's a great question, because it's a really important point.
Speaker 2: So Munchausen and Munchausen bi proxy are characterized by intentional deception,
Speaker 2: you know, in the case of parents, like there are
Speaker 2: some parents that may take their kid to the doctor
Speaker 2: too much because they're anxious. Obviously, you and I are
Speaker 2: both moms, especially like first time moms those things are
Speaker 2: just in a different bucket, right, and much easier to
Speaker 2: deal with, because then if the mom just really needs
Speaker 2: some help, or even something really serious like postpartum psychosis,
Speaker 2: then it's a question of okay, this needs help. They
Speaker 2: are not intentionally harming their children with these offenders, And
Speaker 2: again with those munch house and behaviors that we're talking about,
Speaker 2: they understand what they're doing, they understand right from wrong.
Speaker 2: In a criminal context, that's a really important distinction because
Speaker 2: I think that people get very caught up in these
Speaker 2: cases with what's going on mentally with the mother, and
Speaker 2: I think that's just because it's so hard to wrap
Speaker 2: your head around this behavior. And I would argue that
Speaker 2: we should also be treating offenders when appropriate, But of
Speaker 2: course you always have to be looking out for the
Speaker 2: well being of the children. And so when you're doing
Speaker 2: these investigations into this, what they're looking for is again
Speaker 2: intentional deception, when someone is lying about what's in the
Speaker 2: previous record, or inventing things where their child has tested
Speaker 2: negative for something and then they go to another doctor
Speaker 2: and say they tested positive for it. So that kind
Speaker 2: of thing god again very different than like someone seeking
Speaker 2: a second opinion, or someone who just has a child
Speaker 2: that has a medical a bit of medical mystery thing, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, of course that happens.
Speaker 1: How can you identify if someone has Munchausen by proxy?
Speaker 1: Is it just like it's like the intent is different.
Speaker 2: I've become very convinced talking to experts that I think
Speaker 2: we should be aware of like the warning signs. And
Speaker 2: then also warning signs are not evidence. So the only
Speaker 2: way that you can determine whether or not abuse has
Speaker 2: occurred is to do an investigation that should be both
Speaker 2: a CPS investigation and a criminal investigation, because CPS and
Speaker 2: law enforcement, you know, they have two really different jobs.
Speaker 2: This is something I've learned a lot about that's actually
Speaker 2: been really fascinating for me. I think for parents, like
Speaker 2: CPS is this sort.
Speaker 1: Of looming that's child protective Service? Sorry, child Protective Service? No, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's good.
Speaker 2: So CPS's job is to determine whether or not a
Speaker 2: child is safe in the home, right, so not to
Speaker 2: determine whether or not a crime has been committed. Law
Speaker 2: enforcement is determining whether a crime has been committed. So
Speaker 2: child abuse is of course a crime, and so really
Speaker 2: the only way that you can figure out whether this
Speaker 2: has been committed is to have someone do a full
Speaker 2: medical record review. So again looking for those discrepancies, those
Speaker 2: kinds of discrepancies that I mentioned, sort of someone going
Speaker 2: to a bunch of different doctors and telling those doctors
Speaker 2: different things. We see a lot of like parents interfering
Speaker 2: with tests.
Speaker 1: This is wild. Yeah, and okay, I'm interrupting. Okay, So
Speaker 1: what are the things that so parents can fake something?
Speaker 1: They can like you said, go to one doctor, go
Speaker 1: to another doctor, lie and said something came out positive,
Speaker 1: that was negative. They're actually meddling with medical information.
Speaker 2: So when you take your child to the pediatrician, what
Speaker 2: does that look like? You bring them in there and
Speaker 2: the pediatrician says, mom, what's going on with your child? Right?
Speaker 1: Everything normal? We have normal peeps, We have normal poos.
Speaker 2: How are they eating?
Speaker 1: How are they eating?
Speaker 2: How are they sleeping? Yeah? Are there any other problems?
Speaker 2: So I think that sometimes this gets mischaracterized as something
Speaker 2: that can only be pulled off by this sort of
Speaker 2: manipulative mastermind type of person, but in fact, it's unfortunately
Speaker 2: very easy to commit. So doctors and pediatricians are trained
Speaker 2: to take the word of their patients. And that's as
Speaker 2: it should be, right because, of course, most parents would
Speaker 2: never lie to a doctor about what's going on with
Speaker 2: their child, especially some of these things we see in
Speaker 2: babies and younger children. It's just as simple as a
Speaker 2: mom going in and saying, oh, my child's just not
Speaker 2: gaining weight and I don't know why. And then you
Speaker 2: have these progressive interventions of first they put them on
Speaker 2: one kind of feeding tube, and then they put them
Speaker 2: on a surgical feeding tube and have all of these
Speaker 2: interventions because they can't figure out why the child is
Speaker 2: not gaining weight. And then the reason the child is
Speaker 2: not gaining weight is because the mother is not feeding
Speaker 2: that child. But a doctor sitting in an office with
Speaker 2: a mother would never know that from a ten minute conversation.
Speaker 2: That's the kind of thing that happens in these cases.
Speaker 1: Wow, okay, tell us a little bit about your sister please,
Speaker 1: and your own personal relationship to Munchausen by proxy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So starting off with some very important disclaimers. My
Speaker 2: sister has not been charged with a crime. She has
Speaker 2: been investigated twice. We have not been in touch with
Speaker 2: each other for about twelve years now. My family and
Speaker 2: I fell out. She cut us out of her lives
Speaker 2: after the first investigation. So that is how I learned
Speaker 2: about this. That's where I come to it. I had
Speaker 2: these experiences with her before her children were born, where
Speaker 2: she had some of these again Munchhaus and behaviors. Right. So,
Speaker 2: the most notable of being she had said she was
Speaker 2: pregnant with twins and lost them about six months in.
Speaker 2: I completely thought she was really pregnant and it, however,
Speaker 2: it all sort of unraveled. She did not lose that
Speaker 2: pregnancy when she said she did. It's very much our suspicion,
Speaker 2: collective suspicion that she was never pregnant at all. That
Speaker 2: was the most alarming instance of lying about something about
Speaker 2: her health. There were others. She shaved part of her
Speaker 2: head in high school and said she was losing her hair,
Speaker 2: and so that pattern had been going on for a
Speaker 2: long time. It was just this thing that would come
Speaker 2: in and out a bit. And then after her first
Speaker 2: child was born, that's when we got really scared in
Speaker 2: because we had those fears. She really cut us out
Speaker 2: of her life.
Speaker 1: What was she doing to her first kid that set
Speaker 1: off the alarms? Before you were cut out of her life,
Speaker 1: did you have personal experience of things that you saw
Speaker 1: that she was doing. Obviously she had a pattern growing
Speaker 1: up for whatever reason, and now she has a kid
Speaker 1: and it transfers on to this child.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And of course, like I want to put all
Speaker 2: the caveats because I want to say first of all,
Speaker 2: that I do have a lot of documentation of a
Speaker 2: lot of things, So I'll just say that that first off.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm not a mental health professional. I'm not
Speaker 2: going to diagnose my sister with anything. I can only
Speaker 2: sort of say what we observed and what we were told.
Speaker 2: So her son was born a couple of months. Early
Speaker 2: premies are, I've come to learn, extremely common in these cases.
Speaker 2: Now I will say too that, like anything that I mentioned,
Speaker 2: whether it's eating issues, premies, cistic fibrosis, just because we
Speaker 2: see a lot of them in these cases does not
Speaker 2: mean that we should be looking upon parents who have premies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, oh my gosh, you were a premature labor
Speaker 1: correct prox.
Speaker 2: It's not a causal relationship that way. In fact, doctor
Speaker 2: Mark Feldman, who's one of the top experts in the
Speaker 2: country who I've gotten really close with. He has a book,
Speaker 2: Dying to Be Ill, that profiles a bunch of people
Speaker 2: who have much house and munch as of by proxy,
Speaker 2: and he had a couple of perpetrators actually tell him
Speaker 2: how they induced premature labor. He was born premature and
Speaker 2: then had this failure to thrive thing happening. He was
Speaker 2: just having trouble gaining weight. We were concerned because it
Speaker 2: was progressing towards getting a GET tube, which is the
Speaker 2: surgically placed tube. My parents went to my family doctor,
Speaker 2: who had been our family doctor for like one hundred years,
Speaker 2: and really at that point, we didn't know anything. We
Speaker 2: didn't know the definition of this. We didn't know this
Speaker 2: was really a thing. Just was like a bad gut feeling,
Speaker 2: specifically because of the previous fake pregnancy and all that
Speaker 2: sort of lead up. And so she was the one
Speaker 2: who gave us that term, and she suggested that my
Speaker 2: mom speak to my sisters, her son's pediatrician. My mom
Speaker 2: went and did that, and we didn't know what was
Speaker 2: going to happen after that. What happened was CPS did
Speaker 2: an emergency removal. We did not know CPS was going
Speaker 2: to be called. You don't know if you've never had
Speaker 2: until you know a golement, right, if you've never been
Speaker 2: in that situation where like CPS gets called, then you
Speaker 2: have no idea what to expect, and it was very scary,
Speaker 2: and we really tried to sort of like maintain that
Speaker 2: contact with her, and my parents were just beside themselves.
Speaker 2: They didn't know what to do. That investigation really came
Speaker 2: to nothing. There was a CPS investigation, the state did
Speaker 2: not make any attempts to take custody of her children.
Speaker 2: It sort of just fizzled out.
Speaker 1: Did he end up getting the tube? Did it go
Speaker 1: down that track?
Speaker 2: I believe not. Unfortunately, CPS revealed to my sister that
Speaker 2: my mother had made that call, which they're not supposed
Speaker 2: to do. You're supposed to be able to anonymously report
Speaker 2: to CPS. And again, of course she didn't report to CPS.
Speaker 2: She talked to the doctor. They revealed that information to it.
Speaker 2: So it put sort of an immediate division in my
Speaker 2: family of I can't believe you would ever think I
Speaker 2: would do this, And if you're not with me, you're
Speaker 2: against then you're dead to me, right, Yes, exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: You mentioned in a previous interview in Vanity Fair that
Speaker 1: your nephew the one we're speaking of. I'm assuming it's
Speaker 1: this one, not her second child spent years suffering from
Speaker 1: a series of medical ailments. So if you've been out
Speaker 1: of touch, have you been able to find out anything
Speaker 1: since then? How did you find out that there was
Speaker 1: a CPS investigation a second time that she definitely was
Speaker 1: in charge all of that.
Speaker 2: We found out about the second investigation because a police
Speaker 2: detective called us. So that was several years ago, and
Speaker 2: that was with her daughter. That investigation went from twenty
Speaker 2: eighteen to twenty twenty. Law enforcement was not involved for
Speaker 2: the first time, so the second time, law enforcement was involved.
Speaker 2: When law enforcement gets involved in a case like this,
Speaker 2: one of the things they do is all of these
Speaker 2: collateral interviews, right, So they're looking to talk to family members,
Speaker 2: talk to the school teachers, any medical professionals treating the child,
Speaker 2: anything like that. Obviously, we did not have information about
Speaker 2: her daughter because we had never met her daughter, but
Speaker 2: we'd heard things here and there over the years. She's
Speaker 2: not in touch with anyone from my extended family anymore.
Speaker 2: She's out of touch with all of her friends that
Speaker 2: she grew up with. But we did find out things
Speaker 2: here and there that she put on social media. She
Speaker 2: had another baby that was born very premature and did
Speaker 2: not make it. She posted a picture of that on
Speaker 2: social media, so we heard about that. Her daughter, than
Speaker 2: the one that she was investigated for, was born again
Speaker 2: very premature, so I think at about twenty four weeks, which,
Speaker 2: having been through a pregnancy, you'll know, that's very little
Speaker 2: so early.
Speaker 1: That's like six months right right at the sort of
Speaker 1: right at the is it a viable pregnancy at all?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Oh wow. The hospital that was treating her daughter
Speaker 2: posted like something on their care page about her, and
Speaker 2: a relative sent it to us. But really, we got
Speaker 2: this call from this police detective and then again they're
Speaker 2: not able to tell you that much about the investigation,
Speaker 2: but we just filled him in on our previous concerns
Speaker 2: and some of these previous events. Also, my sister was
Speaker 2: in the media, so she called up a reporter who
Speaker 2: was doing a series on what he has characterized as
Speaker 2: falsely accused mothers. I sort of know bits and pieces
Speaker 2: I get, I guess is the answer.
Speaker 1: Wow, And we just really don't know if your niece
Speaker 1: or nephew are thriving, if they're okay, if they're safe.
Speaker 1: My goodness, Now in your work, since this has so
Speaker 1: personally affected you, and your family because of her disease,
Speaker 1: which I guess she's never been technically diagnosed.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and I do. I do want to make
Speaker 2: sure to put that caveat in now. Like everything I'm saying,
Speaker 2: this is information that's in the public record, it's accessible.
Speaker 2: No one gets diagnosed with Munchausen by proxy in the
Speaker 2: absence of being charged with a crime. Right. So even
Speaker 2: the famous case of our era, the Deiti Blanchard case, right,
Speaker 2: the Gypsy Rose case, the only one anyone's heard of,
Speaker 2: if they have heard of this at all, she was
Speaker 2: never charged with a crime, and she was never diagnosed
Speaker 2: with Munchausen by proxy. Right, So it's not something that
Speaker 2: someone goes I'm having these tris now. I wish it was.
Speaker 2: I wish it was right where if someone was having
Speaker 2: right thoughts, having intrusive thoughts, they could go and seek help.
Speaker 2: Even another pretty famous modern era case is the Lacy
Speaker 2: Spears case. And she unfortunately killed her little boy, and
Speaker 2: she was sitting in prison for it and still said
Speaker 2: she didn't do it. It's not something where people take accountability
Speaker 2: for it.
Speaker 1: Like, you're not going you're not seeking to be diagnosed,
Speaker 1: you're not seeking to be fixed, or you think nothing's
Speaker 1: wrong and that this is normal.
Speaker 2: Correct, it's characterized by deception.
Speaker 1: What has surprised you the most from the stories you've
Speaker 1: heard in learning from other MBP survivors.
Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly the similarities and the patterns are very strong.
Speaker 2: So a lot of the feeding issues. Also a lot
Speaker 2: of seizure disorders, allegedly so seizures that no one else
Speaker 2: is witnessing. It's just an incredibly strong pattern. So I
Speaker 2: think that has been very surprising to think, like, oh,
Speaker 2: you have this very weird case if you look at
Speaker 2: it in isolation, but then if you look at it
Speaker 2: next to a bunch of other cases, they sort of
Speaker 2: all look the same. And then I think the revelation
Speaker 2: that most of the experts that I've talked to have said,
Speaker 2: this is probably about as common as any other form
Speaker 2: of child abuse. Not every other family on the block.
Speaker 2: We all know somebody who we all have some sort
Speaker 2: of tangential experience with, like childhood sex abuse, right like,
Speaker 2: very few of us are going to go through our
Speaker 2: life never meeting someone that was the survivor. And it's
Speaker 2: the same with this and that that's what the experts believe,
Speaker 2: and certainly my anecdotal experience having had the podcast out
Speaker 2: and hearing from a lot of people would lead me
Speaker 2: to believe that is true.
Speaker 1: Also, wow, when you look back, is it like memento
Speaker 1: where you're like, you look back on her life and
Speaker 1: what she was like as a child, and you were like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, Like this has always been there. There
Speaker 1: was Munchausen.
Speaker 2: I don't really. There's certainly things like once we were teenagers,
Speaker 2: like that thing with the hair and then the pregnancies,
Speaker 2: but I had a really nice childhood with her, like
Speaker 2: and that's one of the hardest things to square. And
Speaker 2: it was really beautiful for me to get to meet
Speaker 2: Hope you bar as siblings because we had a lot
Speaker 2: of those same experiences where we just think my relationship
Speaker 2: with this person ended in a really sad way. But
Speaker 2: I still have all of these memories of them growing
Speaker 2: up and they were a part of my family. I
Speaker 2: think of it at this point as like a death, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: And so it's very hard to reconcile. Though this is
Speaker 2: a long time ago that this happened, there was a
Speaker 2: really long time that I was grieving losing that relationship.
Speaker 2: That's still hard some days.
Speaker 1: The cases that you've quoted talked about so far in
Speaker 1: this episode. Do you think you could run us through quick?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So the Hope You bar case is the one
Speaker 2: that we profiled in season one of my podcasts. We
Speaker 2: interviewed her, which was that was a very fascinating experience
Speaker 2: to sit down with her. So she is a woman
Speaker 2: who spent ten years in prison for abuse of her
Speaker 2: youngest child. The charges related to taking blood out of
Speaker 2: her daughter via a central line that was one that
Speaker 2: involved a fake cystic fibrosis diagnosis, and she poisoned her daughter.
Speaker 2: So that yeah, these cases are very disturbing, but the
Speaker 2: good news is in that one her daughter, I believe
Speaker 2: just recently turned eighteen. Her and her other two kids,
Speaker 2: they have a great dad and wonderful supportive family. So they,
Speaker 2: as far as I know, are really thriving and did
Speaker 2: really well. And I think that is a that's a
Speaker 2: good story. That's a story of an intervention that went
Speaker 2: in a positive direction. Well. Yeah, the other case that
Speaker 2: I mentioned Lacey Spears, that was someone who killed her
Speaker 2: four year old little boy via salt poisoning. She did
Speaker 2: spend some time in prison. I believe she's out now,
Speaker 2: and I believe her family stuck by her. It's very
Speaker 2: interesting to me to see how which way the family
Speaker 2: goes in a lot of these cases, because I've seen
Speaker 2: a lot of family members that do stand by the
Speaker 2: perpetrator and say she could never do this, she would
Speaker 2: never do this, regardless of what evidence is put in
Speaker 2: front of them. I think that's something I've really learned
Speaker 2: in this process is that, like, people don't make decisions
Speaker 2: about what they believe based on evidence the way that
Speaker 2: we think they do right.
Speaker 1: No, they make but on how they feel right exactly.
Speaker 2: Their emotional truth. And like emotional is very strong, and
Speaker 2: like the resistance to the idea that a mother could
Speaker 2: do this, especially a mother who seems loving and loving
Speaker 2: is not acting in any way that seems psychologically abnormal.
Speaker 2: It's very disturbing to think that you could just have
Speaker 2: this like lovely, nice mom next door, and then she's
Speaker 2: doing this in her secret life. The other case that
Speaker 2: is one that probably more people know about than any
Speaker 2: other one is the Dede Blanchard case, which was fictionalized
Speaker 2: on that show The Act, and then there's also a
Speaker 2: great HBO documentary.
Speaker 1: Pole were obsessed with it.
Speaker 2: Yes, Joey King, Yeah, purcha shark Cat played TV Blanchard,
Speaker 2: and so that is that is a very wild case.
Speaker 2: That is one in which the victim actually conspired with
Speaker 2: an internet boyfriend to murder her mother. Gipsy is in jail,
Speaker 2: I think for maybe like one more year and then
Speaker 2: she will be out on parole. But that sort of
Speaker 2: has an extra element of wildness because of the murder.
Speaker 1: Wow, how has your personal experience with your sister and
Speaker 1: munch House in my proxy influenced you in raising your
Speaker 1: own children?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. There was a long period
Speaker 2: of my life where I didn't want to think about
Speaker 2: any of those events that had happened. Like there was
Speaker 2: a couple of years after that first investigation when it
Speaker 2: became very clear that I was not going to get
Speaker 2: to see my nephew grow up. Where I just couldn't
Speaker 2: even be in the room with a small child, you know.
Speaker 2: So it's so painful. My life carried on. I published,
Speaker 2: I got married, I got pregnant, And it really was
Speaker 2: around the time that I got pregnant that I started
Speaker 2: working on my novel and realized, like, oh, I think
Speaker 2: everyone who becomes a parent, whatever your most difficult thing
Speaker 2: in your family is like it will come back up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, And so.
Speaker 2: For sure that came up for me. And I think
Speaker 2: it's been really interesting because the bulk of the time
Speaker 2: that I've been working on the novel, the podcast, and
Speaker 2: this nonfiction book. Some days I think what am I doing?
Speaker 2: This is insane, like I've you know, through two pregnancies
Speaker 2: now in postpartum periods. But in fact it has been
Speaker 2: cathartic and rewarding in a lot of ways. Every time
Speaker 2: I talk about what actually happened in my family, that's
Speaker 2: always hard, but I think talking to other people who've
Speaker 2: been through it, giving people a voice to like come
Speaker 2: on the show and talk about their experiences, getting some
Speaker 2: of these experts on the air, and just getting that there,
Speaker 2: that information out.
Speaker 1: It's huge.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think one of the things that the situation
Speaker 2: within my family has really made me feel very helpless.
Speaker 2: I don't think the system worked as it should have worked.
Speaker 2: That is a very frustrating and helpless feeling. So I
Speaker 2: think like feeling like I could do a little something
Speaker 2: for the sort of overall cause or talk help make up.
Speaker 1: Oh you're doing a lot of something. Tell us about
Speaker 1: the nonprofit you co founded called Munchausen Support.
Speaker 2: Back in twenty twenty twenty twenty twenty one, I first
Speaker 2: started meeting with this committee that's part of the American
Speaker 2: Professional Society on the Abuse of Children, which is just
Speaker 2: a big umbrella organization that has nurses and teachers and
Speaker 2: CPS workers and all kinds of people that just have
Speaker 2: anything to do with child abuse. And so they have
Speaker 2: a Munchausen Biproxy Committee, which is just a dedicated group
Speaker 2: of professionals that works and shares resources. I'm now a
Speaker 2: member of that committee and one of my sort of
Speaker 2: functions on that committee was to try and help translate
Speaker 2: some of this kind of out of this very academic
Speaker 2: sphere that it lives in. And so one of the
Speaker 2: first things I did was work with doctor Mark Feldman,
Speaker 2: who oversaw everything I did on this site, to create
Speaker 2: munch House and Support dot com, which is just an
Speaker 2: online resource where you can find like warning signs and
Speaker 2: information for therapists, information for teachers, for doctors, for CPS workers,
Speaker 2: for law enforcement. That's just making some of that really accessible.
Speaker 1: That's awesome.
Speaker 2: And then we're building on that work now and with
Speaker 2: one of my colleagues, b Yorker, who's incredible. She was,
Speaker 2: she's been like she was a nurse for thirty years.
Speaker 2: She's a lawyer, she was a professor of law. She's
Speaker 2: an incredible background in this. And she and our colleague Joe,
Speaker 2: who is a survivor themselves, are working on these survivor
Speaker 2: support groups and we actually have them for family members
Speaker 2: as well. And then we're also working on just getting
Speaker 2: some more trainings out there talking to I've talked to
Speaker 2: a couple of people actually got in touch because of
Speaker 2: the podcast, getting some trainings at their hospital. Even doctors
Speaker 2: often don't know that much about this, which is sucks. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's you would want everyone like.
Speaker 1: To know so that there so if there's any red
Speaker 1: flags or Spidey sense that's going off, we have to
Speaker 1: protect the child.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And unfortunately, in a lot of these situations, doctors
Speaker 2: really get vilified. I'm sure that is what happened in
Speaker 2: the media coverage of my sister's case, that they made
Speaker 2: it sound like this doctor was like out of line
Speaker 2: somehow to be reporting abuse, which is just insane. I mean, obviously,
Speaker 2: like in every state in the country, doctors are mandated reporters.
Speaker 2: People should be reporting. But I always worry that kind
Speaker 2: of media coverage is going to have a chilling effect.
Speaker 2: I think it would be insane to think that it wouldn't.
Speaker 1: Wow, how old your kids now?
Speaker 2: My daughter is four and a half and my son
Speaker 2: is ten months old, so they're very Oh.
Speaker 1: My god, there's so little. Okay, so we are no
Speaker 1: way shape for near the time yet where you'll have
Speaker 1: to be. Have you thought at all about if they
Speaker 1: ever asked about your sister or cousin on that side,
Speaker 1: like what that would be Like, I have.
Speaker 2: Thought about that, and for now that's just a can
Speaker 2: I'm kicking down the road.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're got there.
Speaker 2: We are years away. You're years away. I think that
Speaker 2: it'll just be a matter of, like any difficult thing,
Speaker 2: just finding age appropriate ways to to explain that so
Speaker 2: that it doesn't sound too scary. But it's like kids
Speaker 2: don't actually they think about who's there, they know who's.
Speaker 1: They're never going to know her. It's going to be a.
Speaker 2: Long time down the road before they start thinking about, oh,
Speaker 2: did you ever have a sister or anything like that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think it all.
Speaker 1: You know, what advice would you give to a parent,
Speaker 1: like if they suspect a friend of theirs has MVP.
Speaker 1: What would be an appropriate way to recognize and support
Speaker 1: them without overstepping any boundaries.
Speaker 2: It's really hard, and I can't tell you the number
Speaker 2: of messages I've gotten or like people that will just
Speaker 2: pull me aside when they see me in real life.
Speaker 2: I always want people to remember, I understand how uncomfortable
Speaker 2: this is. I understand how horrific it is to think
Speaker 2: that someone in your life is doing this. So I
Speaker 2: think we just all have to keep in mind, like
Speaker 2: what the stakes actually are. If this is happening, you
Speaker 2: have to report it. We always recommend to people that
Speaker 2: they report it to CPS and law enforcement because it
Speaker 2: is a matter for both of those entities. And as
Speaker 2: my colleague, Detective Weberre always says, report it to both
Speaker 2: and hope that one of them knows what they're doing.
Speaker 2: It may go nowhere, but you have to report it
Speaker 2: because then at least it will be documented. Right in
Speaker 2: the second season, and we did some stuff about what
Speaker 2: does it look like when something looks suspicious and it
Speaker 2: doesn't turn out to be abuse, right, Like, sometimes more
Speaker 2: than one kid in a family has a bunch of
Speaker 2: weird health stuff and they realize it's like a genetic thing.
Speaker 2: But it's like the only thing that can determine that
Speaker 2: is an investigation. And certainly if a whole bunch of
Speaker 2: suspicions are piling up over the years and for multiple
Speaker 2: different things, then that certainly that's going to be germane
Speaker 2: to an investigation whenever one happens.
Speaker 1: Everyone listening. If you have any questions that you can
Speaker 1: always go to munchausendsupport dot com. You can listen to
Speaker 1: Andrea's podcast, which is so so brilliantly called Nobody Should
Speaker 1: Believe Me. Andrew has tons of books and in closing,
Speaker 1: I just want to know Sinjovi a youngin lighthearted question,
Speaker 1: what's one registry item you couldn't live without?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I think that are like our number
Speaker 2: one thing. So I know you've done. I've listened to
Speaker 2: several of your episodes on breastfeeding. Breastfeeding Oh my god,
Speaker 2: couldn't do it. The first one could do it throughout
Speaker 2: through in the chale after four months with my second one, so.
Speaker 1: Mine, well done, not any of it. Who cares, It's
Speaker 1: all insane, truly, do.
Speaker 2: What you want, do what you want. But I so
Speaker 2: we have we have had formula with both babies, the
Speaker 2: baby bread Oh my god, what a miracle. Do you
Speaker 2: know what a baby Bresa is? Oh?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, like Breza is an amazing It makes
Speaker 1: the formula for you and keeps it up right, touch
Speaker 1: a button, correct the correct machine. They're shaking up fucking
Speaker 1: powders and mixes and all this. It does it all
Speaker 1: for you. So the baby Breza, which is spelled b
Speaker 1: r easysy A.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: And as you're coming upon your little ones first birthday.
Speaker 1: At the time of this recording, you're older ones fifth birthday.
Speaker 2: She will be five in October.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what advice would you like to give your children
Speaker 1: as they get closer to their next birthdays?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I don't know. I just think they're
Speaker 2: the most wonderful little people. I just I think it's
Speaker 2: so funny, seem like they're so cool.
Speaker 1: Well, you're doing the right thing, which is I've got
Speaker 1: nothing to teach you. You've got everything to teach me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. I just I think, like, you know,
Speaker 2: the thing that we just always try and emphasize. I
Speaker 2: know this sounds cheesy, but like we're really just trying
Speaker 2: to like be kind. That's the most important thing. Like
Speaker 2: how you treat other people as the thing that matters
Speaker 2: the most. It's quite a wild world that we're all
Speaker 2: sending our kids into.
Speaker 1: I think everyone listening to this podcast would agree. And
Speaker 1: I hope that we're all instilling that in our kids.
Speaker 2: So that's like our only hope.
Speaker 1: I know it's so lame, but I'm like, can we
Speaker 1: please try to make the world a better place because
Speaker 1: we done fucked up.
Speaker 2: I will always be proud of my kids. Whatever else
Speaker 2: they do, achieve, don't achieve, whatever, as long as they're
Speaker 2: like good to other people, You're like, just be like,
Speaker 2: be good to the people in your life.
Speaker 1: Ye test, Yeah, and last question, finish this sentence. Parenthood
Speaker 1: is a wild ride, truly. Thank you so much, Andrea
Speaker 1: Dunlop for coming on Katie's Crib. I really appreciate you
Speaker 1: opening up our eyes and our ears and our experiences
Speaker 1: to this horrible thing that has so closely affected you
Speaker 1: and your family. Please everyone listen to Andrew's podcast, Her
Speaker 1: Books Her, My gosh, You've so much going on, and
Speaker 1: I can't believe almost fell over when you were like,
Speaker 1: here's all the books I've written in the podcast I
Speaker 1: host and everything I do, and I have a ten
Speaker 1: month old and a freaking almost five year old. Bravadio,
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: Necessarily recommend it. I got a whole bunch of deals
Speaker 2: went through right after I got pregnant. That is not
Speaker 2: the timing I would have missed.
Speaker 1: Wow, good for you. Thank you so much for coming
Speaker 1: on Katie's Crib. It was a real pleasure and I
Speaker 1: learned a ton today.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Katie.
Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode.
Speaker 1: I want to hear from you. Let's chat questions, comments, concerns.
Speaker 1: Let me know. You can always find me at Katie'scrib
Speaker 1: at Shondaland dot com. Katie's Crib is a production of
Speaker 1: Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from
Speaker 1: Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. Oh my st