WEBVTT - What is Munchausen by Proxy? w/ Andrea Dunlop

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Katie's crib a production of Shondaland Audio in

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<v Speaker 1>partnership with iHeartRadio. What advice would you give to a parent, like,

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<v Speaker 1>if they suspect a friend of theirs has MVP, what

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<v Speaker 1>would be an appropriate way to recognize and support them

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<v Speaker 1>without overstepping any boundaries.

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<v Speaker 2>I understand how uncomfortable this is. I understand how terific

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<v Speaker 2>it is to think that someone in your life is

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<v Speaker 2>doing this. So I think we just all have to

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<v Speaker 2>keep in mind, like what the stakes actually are. If

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<v Speaker 2>this is happening, you have to report it. We always

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<v Speaker 2>recommend to people that they report it to CPS and

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<v Speaker 2>law enforcement because it is a matter for both of

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<v Speaker 2>those entities. And as my colleague, Detective Weber always says,

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<v Speaker 2>report it to both and hope that one of them

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<v Speaker 2>knows what they're doing.

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<v Speaker 1>Hello, everybody, Welcome back to Katie's CRIBB. How'd you like

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<v Speaker 1>that intro? You're getting a really chill Katie today, isn't

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<v Speaker 1>that interesting? And I got a great night sleep last night.

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<v Speaker 1>That's not the norm at all. I think it's like

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<v Speaker 1>my body's in full on preparation because I'm about to

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<v Speaker 1>embark on a whole bunch of days where I don't

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<v Speaker 1>have any childcare support. Adam is super busy in pretzel Land.

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<v Speaker 1>My parents aren't here, my nanny isn't here, et cetera, etc.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's like I'm in the calm before the shit storm. People.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm really excited about today's episode. It's probably one of

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<v Speaker 1>the most interesting Katie's Crib episodes we've ever done. I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't know much about the topic. I've done a ton

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<v Speaker 1>of research in prep all for our guest today, who

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<v Speaker 1>goes by the name Andrea Dunlop. Andrea is amazing. She

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<v Speaker 1>is an author, she is a consultant, She is a

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<v Speaker 1>podcast host herself, and she is coming on the pod

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<v Speaker 1>today to talk all about something called Munchausen by Proxy

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<v Speaker 1>and what her personal connection is to the topic. Her

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<v Speaker 1>previous novels include Losing the Light, She Regrets Nothing, We

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<v Speaker 1>Came here to Forget, Broken Bay, and her most recent one,

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<v Speaker 1>Women Are the Fiercest Creatures. Andrea is the host, like

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<v Speaker 1>I mentioned, of a true crime podcast called Nobody Should

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<v Speaker 1>Believe Me, and the show is dedicated to stories about

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<v Speaker 1>Munchausen by Proxy, and she talks about what her experience

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<v Speaker 1>was like working closely with people that have been through

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<v Speaker 1>such a painful situation. She's also the co creator of

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<v Speaker 1>Munchausen Support, which is a nonprofit dedicated to providing resources

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<v Speaker 1>for frontline professionals, families, and survivors dealing with Munchausen by proxy.

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<v Speaker 1>Andrea lives in Seattle, Washington with her husband and her

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<v Speaker 1>two children, Fiona and Column Welcome to Katie's Crib. Andrea, Hi,

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<v Speaker 1>Andrea Hi. It's such a pleasure to meet you.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh so nice to meet you too.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you for sending me so many books. I'm so

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<v Speaker 1>impressed by the amount of things you have written. Our

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<v Speaker 1>listeners are all cut up in the know from our

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<v Speaker 1>intro to today's episode of How Impressive You Are. Munchausen

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<v Speaker 1>by proxy is something that a lot of people don't

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<v Speaker 1>know about, other than like the things they might have

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<v Speaker 1>seen in movies. You know a few storylines here and there.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you explain to our audience what exactly Munchausen bi

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<v Speaker 1>proxy is?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and thank you, Thank you so much for having

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<v Speaker 2>me on, Katie. Is such a pleasure to be here

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<v Speaker 2>with you. So munchhause On bi proxy is the criminal

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<v Speaker 2>act of exaggerating, inducing, or fabricating illness in your child Munchausen,

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<v Speaker 2>which is called the official DSM. That's basically when when

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<v Speaker 2>someone does those same things themselves, so again exaggerating, inducing

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<v Speaker 2>or fabricating an illness in yourself for the purposes of

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<v Speaker 2>sympathy and attention. Munchausen by proxy is the word I

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<v Speaker 2>use the most because that's the one people are familiar with,

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<v Speaker 2>if they're familiar with it at all, right, But then

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<v Speaker 2>I think that also adds to a lot of the

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<v Speaker 2>sort of confusion and mystery around the topic. They are

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<v Speaker 2>pretty closely related. But of course, wow, Munchausen biproxy is

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<v Speaker 2>especially important because it involves abuse of a child, whereas

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<v Speaker 2>Munchausen does not.

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<v Speaker 1>And when you have Munchausen or Munchausen by proxy, do

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<v Speaker 1>they know what they're doing or is it different case

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<v Speaker 1>by case.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a great question, because it's a really important point.

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<v Speaker 2>So Munchausen and Munchausen bi proxy are characterized by intentional deception,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, in the case of parents, like there are

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<v Speaker 2>some parents that may take their kid to the doctor

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<v Speaker 2>too much because they're anxious. Obviously, you and I are

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<v Speaker 2>both moms, especially like first time moms those things are

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<v Speaker 2>just in a different bucket, right, and much easier to

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<v Speaker 2>deal with, because then if the mom just really needs

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<v Speaker 2>some help, or even something really serious like postpartum psychosis,

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<v Speaker 2>then it's a question of okay, this needs help. They

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<v Speaker 2>are not intentionally harming their children with these offenders, And

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<v Speaker 2>again with those munch house and behaviors that we're talking about,

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<v Speaker 2>they understand what they're doing, they understand right from wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>In a criminal context, that's a really important distinction because

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<v Speaker 2>I think that people get very caught up in these

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<v Speaker 2>cases with what's going on mentally with the mother, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's just because it's so hard to wrap

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<v Speaker 2>your head around this behavior. And I would argue that

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<v Speaker 2>we should also be treating offenders when appropriate, But of

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<v Speaker 2>course you always have to be looking out for the

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<v Speaker 2>well being of the children. And so when you're doing

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<v Speaker 2>these investigations into this, what they're looking for is again

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<v Speaker 2>intentional deception, when someone is lying about what's in the

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<v Speaker 2>previous record, or inventing things where their child has tested

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<v Speaker 2>negative for something and then they go to another doctor

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<v Speaker 2>and say they tested positive for it. So that kind

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<v Speaker 2>of thing god again very different than like someone seeking

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<v Speaker 2>a second opinion, or someone who just has a child

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<v Speaker 2>that has a medical a bit of medical mystery thing, right,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, of course that happens.

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<v Speaker 1>How can you identify if someone has Munchausen by proxy?

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<v Speaker 1>Is it just like it's like the intent is different.

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<v Speaker 2>I've become very convinced talking to experts that I think

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<v Speaker 2>we should be aware of like the warning signs. And

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<v Speaker 2>then also warning signs are not evidence. So the only

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<v Speaker 2>way that you can determine whether or not abuse has

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<v Speaker 2>occurred is to do an investigation that should be both

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<v Speaker 2>a CPS investigation and a criminal investigation, because CPS and

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<v Speaker 2>law enforcement, you know, they have two really different jobs.

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<v Speaker 2>This is something I've learned a lot about that's actually

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<v Speaker 2>been really fascinating for me. I think for parents, like

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<v Speaker 2>CPS is this sort.

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<v Speaker 1>Of looming that's child protective Service? Sorry, child Protective Service? No, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it's good.

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<v Speaker 2>So CPS's job is to determine whether or not a

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<v Speaker 2>child is safe in the home, right, so not to

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<v Speaker 2>determine whether or not a crime has been committed. Law

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<v Speaker 2>enforcement is determining whether a crime has been committed. So

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<v Speaker 2>child abuse is of course a crime, and so really

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<v Speaker 2>the only way that you can figure out whether this

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<v Speaker 2>has been committed is to have someone do a full

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<v Speaker 2>medical record review. So again looking for those discrepancies, those

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<v Speaker 2>kinds of discrepancies that I mentioned, sort of someone going

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<v Speaker 2>to a bunch of different doctors and telling those doctors

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<v Speaker 2>different things. We see a lot of like parents interfering

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<v Speaker 2>with tests.

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<v Speaker 1>This is wild. Yeah, and okay, I'm interrupting. Okay, So

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<v Speaker 1>what are the things that so parents can fake something?

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<v Speaker 1>They can like you said, go to one doctor, go

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<v Speaker 1>to another doctor, lie and said something came out positive,

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<v Speaker 1>that was negative. They're actually meddling with medical information.

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<v Speaker 2>So when you take your child to the pediatrician, what

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<v Speaker 2>does that look like? You bring them in there and

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<v Speaker 2>the pediatrician says, mom, what's going on with your child? Right?

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<v Speaker 1>Everything normal? We have normal peeps, We have normal poos.

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<v Speaker 2>How are they eating?

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<v Speaker 1>How are they eating?

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<v Speaker 2>How are they sleeping? Yeah? Are there any other problems?

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<v Speaker 2>So I think that sometimes this gets mischaracterized as something

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<v Speaker 2>that can only be pulled off by this sort of

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<v Speaker 2>manipulative mastermind type of person, but in fact, it's unfortunately

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<v Speaker 2>very easy to commit. So doctors and pediatricians are trained

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<v Speaker 2>to take the word of their patients. And that's as

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<v Speaker 2>it should be, right because, of course, most parents would

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<v Speaker 2>never lie to a doctor about what's going on with

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<v Speaker 2>their child, especially some of these things we see in

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<v Speaker 2>babies and younger children. It's just as simple as a

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<v Speaker 2>mom going in and saying, oh, my child's just not

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<v Speaker 2>gaining weight and I don't know why. And then you

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<v Speaker 2>have these progressive interventions of first they put them on

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<v Speaker 2>one kind of feeding tube, and then they put them

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<v Speaker 2>on a surgical feeding tube and have all of these

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<v Speaker 2>interventions because they can't figure out why the child is

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<v Speaker 2>not gaining weight. And then the reason the child is

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<v Speaker 2>not gaining weight is because the mother is not feeding

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<v Speaker 2>that child. But a doctor sitting in an office with

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<v Speaker 2>a mother would never know that from a ten minute conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the kind of thing that happens in these cases.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, okay, tell us a little bit about your sister please,

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<v Speaker 1>and your own personal relationship to Munchausen by proxy.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So starting off with some very important disclaimers. My

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<v Speaker 2>sister has not been charged with a crime. She has

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<v Speaker 2>been investigated twice. We have not been in touch with

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<v Speaker 2>each other for about twelve years now. My family and

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<v Speaker 2>I fell out. She cut us out of her lives

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<v Speaker 2>after the first investigation. So that is how I learned

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<v Speaker 2>about this. That's where I come to it. I had

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<v Speaker 2>these experiences with her before her children were born, where

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<v Speaker 2>she had some of these again Munchhaus and behaviors. Right. So,

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<v Speaker 2>the most notable of being she had said she was

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<v Speaker 2>pregnant with twins and lost them about six months in.

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<v Speaker 2>I completely thought she was really pregnant and it, however,

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<v Speaker 2>it all sort of unraveled. She did not lose that

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<v Speaker 2>pregnancy when she said she did. It's very much our suspicion,

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<v Speaker 2>collective suspicion that she was never pregnant at all. That

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<v Speaker 2>was the most alarming instance of lying about something about

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<v Speaker 2>her health. There were others. She shaved part of her

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<v Speaker 2>head in high school and said she was losing her hair,

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<v Speaker 2>and so that pattern had been going on for a

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<v Speaker 2>long time. It was just this thing that would come

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<v Speaker 2>in and out a bit. And then after her first

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<v Speaker 2>child was born, that's when we got really scared in

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<v Speaker 2>because we had those fears. She really cut us out

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<v Speaker 2>of her life.

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<v Speaker 1>What was she doing to her first kid that set

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<v Speaker 1>off the alarms? Before you were cut out of her life,

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<v Speaker 1>did you have personal experience of things that you saw

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<v Speaker 1>that she was doing. Obviously she had a pattern growing

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<v Speaker 1>up for whatever reason, and now she has a kid

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<v Speaker 1>and it transfers on to this child.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And of course, like I want to put all

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<v Speaker 2>the caveats because I want to say first of all,

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<v Speaker 2>that I do have a lot of documentation of a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of things, So I'll just say that that first off.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I'm not a mental health professional. I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>going to diagnose my sister with anything. I can only

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<v Speaker 2>sort of say what we observed and what we were told.

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<v Speaker 2>So her son was born a couple of months. Early

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<v Speaker 2>premies are, I've come to learn, extremely common in these cases.

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<v Speaker 2>Now I will say too that, like anything that I mentioned,

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<v Speaker 2>whether it's eating issues, premies, cistic fibrosis, just because we

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<v Speaker 2>see a lot of them in these cases does not

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<v Speaker 2>mean that we should be looking upon parents who have premies.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like, oh my gosh, you were a premature labor

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<v Speaker 1>correct prox.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not a causal relationship that way. In fact, doctor

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<v Speaker 2>Mark Feldman, who's one of the top experts in the

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<v Speaker 2>country who I've gotten really close with. He has a book,

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<v Speaker 2>Dying to Be Ill, that profiles a bunch of people

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<v Speaker 2>who have much house and munch as of by proxy,

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<v Speaker 2>and he had a couple of perpetrators actually tell him

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<v Speaker 2>how they induced premature labor. He was born premature and

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<v Speaker 2>then had this failure to thrive thing happening. He was

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<v Speaker 2>just having trouble gaining weight. We were concerned because it

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<v Speaker 2>was progressing towards getting a GET tube, which is the

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<v Speaker 2>surgically placed tube. My parents went to my family doctor,

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<v Speaker 2>who had been our family doctor for like one hundred years,

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<v Speaker 2>and really at that point, we didn't know anything. We

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<v Speaker 2>didn't know the definition of this. We didn't know this

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<v Speaker 2>was really a thing. Just was like a bad gut feeling,

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<v Speaker 2>specifically because of the previous fake pregnancy and all that

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<v Speaker 2>sort of lead up. And so she was the one

0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:29.680
<v Speaker 2>who gave us that term, and she suggested that my

0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:33.840
<v Speaker 2>mom speak to my sisters, her son's pediatrician. My mom

0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:36.240
<v Speaker 2>went and did that, and we didn't know what was

0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:38.680
<v Speaker 2>going to happen after that. What happened was CPS did

0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:41.840
<v Speaker 2>an emergency removal. We did not know CPS was going

0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:44.600
<v Speaker 2>to be called. You don't know if you've never had

0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:46.959
<v Speaker 2>until you know a golement, right, if you've never been

0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:50.800
<v Speaker 2>in that situation where like CPS gets called, then you

0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.240
<v Speaker 2>have no idea what to expect, and it was very scary,

0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:56.880
<v Speaker 2>and we really tried to sort of like maintain that

0:12:56.960 --> 0:13:01.800
<v Speaker 2>contact with her, and my parents were just beside themselves.

0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:05.760
<v Speaker 2>They didn't know what to do. That investigation really came

0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.839
<v Speaker 2>to nothing. There was a CPS investigation, the state did

0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:12.240
<v Speaker 2>not make any attempts to take custody of her children.

0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:13.920
<v Speaker 2>It sort of just fizzled out.

0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:16.600
<v Speaker 1>Did he end up getting the tube? Did it go

0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:17.640
<v Speaker 1>down that track?

0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.640
<v Speaker 2>I believe not. Unfortunately, CPS revealed to my sister that

0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:25.120
<v Speaker 2>my mother had made that call, which they're not supposed

0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.079
<v Speaker 2>to do. You're supposed to be able to anonymously report

0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:29.840
<v Speaker 2>to CPS. And again, of course she didn't report to CPS.

0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:32.520
<v Speaker 2>She talked to the doctor. They revealed that information to it.

0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:34.240
<v Speaker 2>So it put sort of an immediate division in my

0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:37.240
<v Speaker 2>family of I can't believe you would ever think I

0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:39.120
<v Speaker 2>would do this, And if you're not with me, you're

0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:42.000
<v Speaker 2>against then you're dead to me, right, Yes, exactly exactly.

0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.640
<v Speaker 1>You mentioned in a previous interview in Vanity Fair that

0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:48.199
<v Speaker 1>your nephew the one we're speaking of. I'm assuming it's

0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.880
<v Speaker 1>this one, not her second child spent years suffering from

0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:54.199
<v Speaker 1>a series of medical ailments. So if you've been out

0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:56.640
<v Speaker 1>of touch, have you been able to find out anything

0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:58.320
<v Speaker 1>since then? How did you find out that there was

0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:00.920
<v Speaker 1>a CPS investigation a second time that she definitely was

0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:02.960
<v Speaker 1>in charge all of that.

0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:06.880
<v Speaker 2>We found out about the second investigation because a police

0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:10.000
<v Speaker 2>detective called us. So that was several years ago, and

0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.520
<v Speaker 2>that was with her daughter. That investigation went from twenty

0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:15.880
<v Speaker 2>eighteen to twenty twenty. Law enforcement was not involved for

0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.719
<v Speaker 2>the first time, so the second time, law enforcement was involved.

0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.320
<v Speaker 2>When law enforcement gets involved in a case like this,

0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:23.120
<v Speaker 2>one of the things they do is all of these

0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.080
<v Speaker 2>collateral interviews, right, So they're looking to talk to family members,

0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:30.760
<v Speaker 2>talk to the school teachers, any medical professionals treating the child,

0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.680
<v Speaker 2>anything like that. Obviously, we did not have information about

0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:36.640
<v Speaker 2>her daughter because we had never met her daughter, but

0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.560
<v Speaker 2>we'd heard things here and there over the years. She's

0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:42.840
<v Speaker 2>not in touch with anyone from my extended family anymore.

0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:44.960
<v Speaker 2>She's out of touch with all of her friends that

0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:47.080
<v Speaker 2>she grew up with. But we did find out things

0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:49.520
<v Speaker 2>here and there that she put on social media. She

0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:53.280
<v Speaker 2>had another baby that was born very premature and did

0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:57.080
<v Speaker 2>not make it. She posted a picture of that on

0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.880
<v Speaker 2>social media, so we heard about that. Her daughter, than

0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:05.160
<v Speaker 2>the one that she was investigated for, was born again

0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:07.720
<v Speaker 2>very premature, so I think at about twenty four weeks, which,

0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.520
<v Speaker 2>having been through a pregnancy, you'll know, that's very little

0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:11.800
<v Speaker 2>so early.

0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:14.480
<v Speaker 1>That's like six months right right at the sort of

0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:17.160
<v Speaker 1>right at the is it a viable pregnancy at all?

0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Oh wow. The hospital that was treating her daughter

0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.240
<v Speaker 2>posted like something on their care page about her, and

0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:26.360
<v Speaker 2>a relative sent it to us. But really, we got

0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:29.280
<v Speaker 2>this call from this police detective and then again they're

0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:31.520
<v Speaker 2>not able to tell you that much about the investigation,

0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.720
<v Speaker 2>but we just filled him in on our previous concerns

0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:37.960
<v Speaker 2>and some of these previous events. Also, my sister was

0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:41.240
<v Speaker 2>in the media, so she called up a reporter who

0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.920
<v Speaker 2>was doing a series on what he has characterized as

0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:49.280
<v Speaker 2>falsely accused mothers. I sort of know bits and pieces

0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:50.560
<v Speaker 2>I get, I guess is the answer.

0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:55.080
<v Speaker 1>Wow, And we just really don't know if your niece

0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:59.400
<v Speaker 1>or nephew are thriving, if they're okay, if they're safe.

0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:14.360
<v Speaker 1>My goodness, Now in your work, since this has so

0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:20.360
<v Speaker 1>personally affected you, and your family because of her disease,

0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.480
<v Speaker 1>which I guess she's never been technically diagnosed.

0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:25.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, and I do. I do want to make

0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:28.080
<v Speaker 2>sure to put that caveat in now. Like everything I'm saying,

0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:32.080
<v Speaker 2>this is information that's in the public record, it's accessible.

0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:34.960
<v Speaker 2>No one gets diagnosed with Munchausen by proxy in the

0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:37.840
<v Speaker 2>absence of being charged with a crime. Right. So even

0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:41.840
<v Speaker 2>the famous case of our era, the Deiti Blanchard case, right,

0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:44.760
<v Speaker 2>the Gypsy Rose case, the only one anyone's heard of,

0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.400
<v Speaker 2>if they have heard of this at all, she was

0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:49.760
<v Speaker 2>never charged with a crime, and she was never diagnosed

0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:52.120
<v Speaker 2>with Munchausen by proxy. Right, So it's not something that

0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:55.520
<v Speaker 2>someone goes I'm having these tris now. I wish it was.

0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:57.720
<v Speaker 2>I wish it was right where if someone was having

0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.480
<v Speaker 2>right thoughts, having intrusive thoughts, they could go and seek help.

0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:04.520
<v Speaker 2>Even another pretty famous modern era case is the Lacy

0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:08.359
<v Speaker 2>Spears case. And she unfortunately killed her little boy, and

0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:10.040
<v Speaker 2>she was sitting in prison for it and still said

0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:13.959
<v Speaker 2>she didn't do it. It's not something where people take accountability

0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:14.360
<v Speaker 2>for it.

0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:18.119
<v Speaker 1>Like, you're not going you're not seeking to be diagnosed,

0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:20.959
<v Speaker 1>you're not seeking to be fixed, or you think nothing's

0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:22.560
<v Speaker 1>wrong and that this is normal.

0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:24.879
<v Speaker 2>Correct, it's characterized by deception.

0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.200
<v Speaker 1>What has surprised you the most from the stories you've

0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:35.639
<v Speaker 1>heard in learning from other MBP survivors.

0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:40.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, certainly the similarities and the patterns are very strong.

0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:42.760
<v Speaker 2>So a lot of the feeding issues. Also a lot

0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:46.120
<v Speaker 2>of seizure disorders, allegedly so seizures that no one else

0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:49.879
<v Speaker 2>is witnessing. It's just an incredibly strong pattern. So I

0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:52.560
<v Speaker 2>think that has been very surprising to think, like, oh,

0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:54.520
<v Speaker 2>you have this very weird case if you look at

0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:56.080
<v Speaker 2>it in isolation, but then if you look at it

0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:57.760
<v Speaker 2>next to a bunch of other cases, they sort of

0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:00.760
<v Speaker 2>all look the same. And then I think the revelation

0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:02.960
<v Speaker 2>that most of the experts that I've talked to have said,

0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:05.200
<v Speaker 2>this is probably about as common as any other form

0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:08.159
<v Speaker 2>of child abuse. Not every other family on the block.

0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:12.760
<v Speaker 2>We all know somebody who we all have some sort

0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.520
<v Speaker 2>of tangential experience with, like childhood sex abuse, right like,

0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:16.879
<v Speaker 2>very few of us are going to go through our

0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.480
<v Speaker 2>life never meeting someone that was the survivor. And it's

0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:23.280
<v Speaker 2>the same with this and that that's what the experts believe,

0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.280
<v Speaker 2>and certainly my anecdotal experience having had the podcast out

0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:29.560
<v Speaker 2>and hearing from a lot of people would lead me

0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:31.320
<v Speaker 2>to believe that is true.

0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:35.040
<v Speaker 1>Also, wow, when you look back, is it like memento

0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:38.680
<v Speaker 1>where you're like, you look back on her life and

0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:41.159
<v Speaker 1>what she was like as a child, and you were like,

0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:44.560
<v Speaker 1>oh my god, Like this has always been there. There

0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:45.600
<v Speaker 1>was Munchausen.

0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't really. There's certainly things like once we were teenagers,

0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:53.200
<v Speaker 2>like that thing with the hair and then the pregnancies,

0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:56.879
<v Speaker 2>but I had a really nice childhood with her, like

0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:58.840
<v Speaker 2>and that's one of the hardest things to square. And

0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:01.640
<v Speaker 2>it was really beautiful for me to get to meet

0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:03.719
<v Speaker 2>Hope you bar as siblings because we had a lot

0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:06.800
<v Speaker 2>of those same experiences where we just think my relationship

0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:08.800
<v Speaker 2>with this person ended in a really sad way. But

0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:11.480
<v Speaker 2>I still have all of these memories of them growing

0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:15.639
<v Speaker 2>up and they were a part of my family. I

0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:19.320
<v Speaker 2>think of it at this point as like a death, yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:22.960
<v Speaker 2>And so it's very hard to reconcile. Though this is

0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:24.879
<v Speaker 2>a long time ago that this happened, there was a

0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:27.920
<v Speaker 2>really long time that I was grieving losing that relationship.

0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:29.399
<v Speaker 2>That's still hard some days.

0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.000
<v Speaker 1>The cases that you've quoted talked about so far in

0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:37.040
<v Speaker 1>this episode. Do you think you could run us through quick?

0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:39.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? So the Hope You bar case is the one

0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:41.960
<v Speaker 2>that we profiled in season one of my podcasts. We

0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:45.080
<v Speaker 2>interviewed her, which was that was a very fascinating experience

0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:46.640
<v Speaker 2>to sit down with her. So she is a woman

0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:51.040
<v Speaker 2>who spent ten years in prison for abuse of her

0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:56.320
<v Speaker 2>youngest child. The charges related to taking blood out of

0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.480
<v Speaker 2>her daughter via a central line that was one that

0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:04.359
<v Speaker 2>involved a fake cystic fibrosis diagnosis, and she poisoned her daughter.

0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:08.800
<v Speaker 2>So that yeah, these cases are very disturbing, but the

0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.959
<v Speaker 2>good news is in that one her daughter, I believe

0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:15.680
<v Speaker 2>just recently turned eighteen. Her and her other two kids,

0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:19.680
<v Speaker 2>they have a great dad and wonderful supportive family. So they,

0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:22.400
<v Speaker 2>as far as I know, are really thriving and did

0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.080
<v Speaker 2>really well. And I think that is a that's a

0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:27.320
<v Speaker 2>good story. That's a story of an intervention that went

0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:31.520
<v Speaker 2>in a positive direction. Well. Yeah, the other case that

0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:36.720
<v Speaker 2>I mentioned Lacey Spears, that was someone who killed her

0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:40.360
<v Speaker 2>four year old little boy via salt poisoning. She did

0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:43.560
<v Speaker 2>spend some time in prison. I believe she's out now,

0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:46.440
<v Speaker 2>and I believe her family stuck by her. It's very

0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:48.600
<v Speaker 2>interesting to me to see how which way the family

0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:50.600
<v Speaker 2>goes in a lot of these cases, because I've seen

0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:53.679
<v Speaker 2>a lot of family members that do stand by the

0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:55.920
<v Speaker 2>perpetrator and say she could never do this, she would

0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:58.800
<v Speaker 2>never do this, regardless of what evidence is put in

0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:00.720
<v Speaker 2>front of them. I think that's something I've really learned

0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:04.240
<v Speaker 2>in this process is that, like, people don't make decisions

0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.240
<v Speaker 2>about what they believe based on evidence the way that

0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:08.240
<v Speaker 2>we think they do right.

0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:11.640
<v Speaker 1>No, they make but on how they feel right exactly.

0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:15.560
<v Speaker 2>Their emotional truth. And like emotional is very strong, and

0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:19.440
<v Speaker 2>like the resistance to the idea that a mother could

0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:24.240
<v Speaker 2>do this, especially a mother who seems loving and loving

0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:28.720
<v Speaker 2>is not acting in any way that seems psychologically abnormal.

0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.400
<v Speaker 2>It's very disturbing to think that you could just have

0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:35.359
<v Speaker 2>this like lovely, nice mom next door, and then she's

0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:38.960
<v Speaker 2>doing this in her secret life. The other case that

0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:41.680
<v Speaker 2>is one that probably more people know about than any

0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:44.960
<v Speaker 2>other one is the Dede Blanchard case, which was fictionalized

0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:46.679
<v Speaker 2>on that show The Act, and then there's also a

0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:48.520
<v Speaker 2>great HBO documentary.

0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:49.919
<v Speaker 1>Pole were obsessed with it.

0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:54.000
<v Speaker 2>Yes, Joey King, Yeah, purcha shark Cat played TV Blanchard,

0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:56.160
<v Speaker 2>and so that is that is a very wild case.

0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:59.800
<v Speaker 2>That is one in which the victim actually conspired with

0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:04.200
<v Speaker 2>an internet boyfriend to murder her mother. Gipsy is in jail,

0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:06.400
<v Speaker 2>I think for maybe like one more year and then

0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:09.399
<v Speaker 2>she will be out on parole. But that sort of

0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:13.080
<v Speaker 2>has an extra element of wildness because of the murder.

0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:20.920
<v Speaker 1>Wow, how has your personal experience with your sister and

0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:24.800
<v Speaker 1>munch House in my proxy influenced you in raising your

0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:25.440
<v Speaker 1>own children?

0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:28.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a great question. There was a long period

0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:30.520
<v Speaker 2>of my life where I didn't want to think about

0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:33.680
<v Speaker 2>any of those events that had happened. Like there was

0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:36.320
<v Speaker 2>a couple of years after that first investigation when it

0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:37.960
<v Speaker 2>became very clear that I was not going to get

0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:40.040
<v Speaker 2>to see my nephew grow up. Where I just couldn't

0:22:40.040 --> 0:22:41.680
<v Speaker 2>even be in the room with a small child, you know.

0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:45.640
<v Speaker 2>So it's so painful. My life carried on. I published,

0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:48.320
<v Speaker 2>I got married, I got pregnant, And it really was

0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:50.600
<v Speaker 2>around the time that I got pregnant that I started

0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:54.960
<v Speaker 2>working on my novel and realized, like, oh, I think

0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:58.800
<v Speaker 2>everyone who becomes a parent, whatever your most difficult thing

0:22:58.840 --> 0:23:01.120
<v Speaker 2>in your family is like it will come back up.

0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:04.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, sure, And so.

0:23:04.640 --> 0:23:06.640
<v Speaker 2>For sure that came up for me. And I think

0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:09.520
<v Speaker 2>it's been really interesting because the bulk of the time

0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:13.080
<v Speaker 2>that I've been working on the novel, the podcast, and

0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:16.120
<v Speaker 2>this nonfiction book. Some days I think what am I doing?

0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:18.680
<v Speaker 2>This is insane, like I've you know, through two pregnancies

0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:21.880
<v Speaker 2>now in postpartum periods. But in fact it has been

0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:27.440
<v Speaker 2>cathartic and rewarding in a lot of ways. Every time

0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:29.359
<v Speaker 2>I talk about what actually happened in my family, that's

0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:33.080
<v Speaker 2>always hard, but I think talking to other people who've

0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:35.960
<v Speaker 2>been through it, giving people a voice to like come

0:23:36.000 --> 0:23:38.320
<v Speaker 2>on the show and talk about their experiences, getting some

0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:41.720
<v Speaker 2>of these experts on the air, and just getting that there,

0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:43.120
<v Speaker 2>that information out.

0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:44.159
<v Speaker 1>It's huge.

0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:47.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I think one of the things that the situation

0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:50.800
<v Speaker 2>within my family has really made me feel very helpless.

0:23:51.240 --> 0:23:55.240
<v Speaker 2>I don't think the system worked as it should have worked.

0:23:55.600 --> 0:23:58.119
<v Speaker 2>That is a very frustrating and helpless feeling. So I

0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:01.880
<v Speaker 2>think like feeling like I could do a little something

0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:05.760
<v Speaker 2>for the sort of overall cause or talk help make up.

0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:18.879
<v Speaker 1>Oh you're doing a lot of something. Tell us about

0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:21.760
<v Speaker 1>the nonprofit you co founded called Munchausen Support.

0:24:22.400 --> 0:24:27.080
<v Speaker 2>Back in twenty twenty twenty twenty twenty one, I first

0:24:27.119 --> 0:24:30.120
<v Speaker 2>started meeting with this committee that's part of the American

0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:32.359
<v Speaker 2>Professional Society on the Abuse of Children, which is just

0:24:32.400 --> 0:24:35.239
<v Speaker 2>a big umbrella organization that has nurses and teachers and

0:24:35.359 --> 0:24:37.600
<v Speaker 2>CPS workers and all kinds of people that just have

0:24:37.640 --> 0:24:39.359
<v Speaker 2>anything to do with child abuse. And so they have

0:24:39.400 --> 0:24:42.120
<v Speaker 2>a Munchausen Biproxy Committee, which is just a dedicated group

0:24:42.119 --> 0:24:45.399
<v Speaker 2>of professionals that works and shares resources. I'm now a

0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:49.600
<v Speaker 2>member of that committee and one of my sort of

0:24:49.640 --> 0:24:52.400
<v Speaker 2>functions on that committee was to try and help translate

0:24:52.440 --> 0:24:54.919
<v Speaker 2>some of this kind of out of this very academic

0:24:55.040 --> 0:24:56.720
<v Speaker 2>sphere that it lives in. And so one of the

0:24:56.760 --> 0:24:59.600
<v Speaker 2>first things I did was work with doctor Mark Feldman,

0:24:59.720 --> 0:25:02.440
<v Speaker 2>who oversaw everything I did on this site, to create

0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:04.239
<v Speaker 2>munch House and Support dot com, which is just an

0:25:04.280 --> 0:25:07.880
<v Speaker 2>online resource where you can find like warning signs and

0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:13.720
<v Speaker 2>information for therapists, information for teachers, for doctors, for CPS workers,

0:25:13.800 --> 0:25:17.520
<v Speaker 2>for law enforcement. That's just making some of that really accessible.

0:25:18.080 --> 0:25:18.680
<v Speaker 1>That's awesome.

0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:21.479
<v Speaker 2>And then we're building on that work now and with

0:25:21.480 --> 0:25:24.560
<v Speaker 2>one of my colleagues, b Yorker, who's incredible. She was,

0:25:25.000 --> 0:25:27.280
<v Speaker 2>she's been like she was a nurse for thirty years.

0:25:27.320 --> 0:25:29.840
<v Speaker 2>She's a lawyer, she was a professor of law. She's

0:25:29.840 --> 0:25:33.440
<v Speaker 2>an incredible background in this. And she and our colleague Joe,

0:25:33.480 --> 0:25:38.000
<v Speaker 2>who is a survivor themselves, are working on these survivor

0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:41.479
<v Speaker 2>support groups and we actually have them for family members

0:25:41.520 --> 0:25:44.560
<v Speaker 2>as well. And then we're also working on just getting

0:25:44.560 --> 0:25:47.200
<v Speaker 2>some more trainings out there talking to I've talked to

0:25:47.200 --> 0:25:48.720
<v Speaker 2>a couple of people actually got in touch because of

0:25:48.720 --> 0:25:52.040
<v Speaker 2>the podcast, getting some trainings at their hospital. Even doctors

0:25:52.520 --> 0:26:00.720
<v Speaker 2>often don't know that much about this, which is sucks. Yeah, yeah,

0:26:01.080 --> 0:26:03.400
<v Speaker 2>it's you would want everyone like.

0:26:03.800 --> 0:26:06.560
<v Speaker 1>To know so that there so if there's any red

0:26:06.600 --> 0:26:10.320
<v Speaker 1>flags or Spidey sense that's going off, we have to

0:26:10.480 --> 0:26:11.680
<v Speaker 1>protect the child.

0:26:12.119 --> 0:26:16.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And unfortunately, in a lot of these situations, doctors

0:26:16.359 --> 0:26:20.280
<v Speaker 2>really get vilified. I'm sure that is what happened in

0:26:20.320 --> 0:26:22.640
<v Speaker 2>the media coverage of my sister's case, that they made

0:26:22.680 --> 0:26:25.639
<v Speaker 2>it sound like this doctor was like out of line

0:26:25.680 --> 0:26:29.600
<v Speaker 2>somehow to be reporting abuse, which is just insane. I mean, obviously,

0:26:29.680 --> 0:26:32.440
<v Speaker 2>like in every state in the country, doctors are mandated reporters.

0:26:32.760 --> 0:26:35.920
<v Speaker 2>People should be reporting. But I always worry that kind

0:26:35.960 --> 0:26:38.080
<v Speaker 2>of media coverage is going to have a chilling effect.

0:26:38.119 --> 0:26:40.040
<v Speaker 2>I think it would be insane to think that it wouldn't.

0:26:41.200 --> 0:26:43.160
<v Speaker 1>Wow, how old your kids now?

0:26:44.000 --> 0:26:46.080
<v Speaker 2>My daughter is four and a half and my son

0:26:46.200 --> 0:26:48.400
<v Speaker 2>is ten months old, so they're very Oh.

0:26:48.200 --> 0:26:50.199
<v Speaker 1>My god, there's so little. Okay, so we are no

0:26:50.280 --> 0:26:53.399
<v Speaker 1>way shape for near the time yet where you'll have

0:26:53.480 --> 0:26:56.840
<v Speaker 1>to be. Have you thought at all about if they

0:26:56.840 --> 0:27:01.000
<v Speaker 1>ever asked about your sister or cousin on that side,

0:27:01.160 --> 0:27:03.800
<v Speaker 1>like what that would be Like, I have.

0:27:03.920 --> 0:27:06.440
<v Speaker 2>Thought about that, and for now that's just a can

0:27:06.560 --> 0:27:08.120
<v Speaker 2>I'm kicking down the road.

0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:10.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, you're got there.

0:27:10.480 --> 0:27:13.679
<v Speaker 2>We are years away. You're years away. I think that

0:27:13.760 --> 0:27:16.720
<v Speaker 2>it'll just be a matter of, like any difficult thing,

0:27:16.880 --> 0:27:21.959
<v Speaker 2>just finding age appropriate ways to to explain that so

0:27:22.000 --> 0:27:26.119
<v Speaker 2>that it doesn't sound too scary. But it's like kids

0:27:26.160 --> 0:27:31.159
<v Speaker 2>don't actually they think about who's there, they know who's.

0:27:31.760 --> 0:27:34.440
<v Speaker 1>They're never going to know her. It's going to be a.

0:27:34.359 --> 0:27:36.920
<v Speaker 2>Long time down the road before they start thinking about, oh,

0:27:36.960 --> 0:27:39.120
<v Speaker 2>did you ever have a sister or anything like that. Yeah,

0:27:39.200 --> 0:27:39.639
<v Speaker 2>I think it all.

0:27:40.000 --> 0:27:43.600
<v Speaker 1>You know, what advice would you give to a parent,

0:27:44.040 --> 0:27:47.359
<v Speaker 1>like if they suspect a friend of theirs has MVP.

0:27:48.280 --> 0:27:51.000
<v Speaker 1>What would be an appropriate way to recognize and support

0:27:51.040 --> 0:27:53.600
<v Speaker 1>them without overstepping any boundaries.

0:27:54.760 --> 0:27:56.800
<v Speaker 2>It's really hard, and I can't tell you the number

0:27:56.840 --> 0:27:58.879
<v Speaker 2>of messages I've gotten or like people that will just

0:27:59.000 --> 0:28:01.359
<v Speaker 2>pull me aside when they see me in real life.

0:28:02.160 --> 0:28:05.160
<v Speaker 2>I always want people to remember, I understand how uncomfortable

0:28:05.200 --> 0:28:07.520
<v Speaker 2>this is. I understand how horrific it is to think

0:28:07.520 --> 0:28:09.399
<v Speaker 2>that someone in your life is doing this. So I

0:28:09.400 --> 0:28:11.919
<v Speaker 2>think we just all have to keep in mind, like

0:28:12.040 --> 0:28:16.119
<v Speaker 2>what the stakes actually are. If this is happening, you

0:28:16.400 --> 0:28:19.400
<v Speaker 2>have to report it. We always recommend to people that

0:28:20.040 --> 0:28:23.040
<v Speaker 2>they report it to CPS and law enforcement because it

0:28:23.119 --> 0:28:27.440
<v Speaker 2>is a matter for both of those entities. And as

0:28:27.480 --> 0:28:30.720
<v Speaker 2>my colleague, Detective Weberre always says, report it to both

0:28:30.800 --> 0:28:32.800
<v Speaker 2>and hope that one of them knows what they're doing.

0:28:33.760 --> 0:28:35.879
<v Speaker 2>It may go nowhere, but you have to report it

0:28:35.880 --> 0:28:38.680
<v Speaker 2>because then at least it will be documented. Right in

0:28:38.720 --> 0:28:40.480
<v Speaker 2>the second season, and we did some stuff about what

0:28:40.520 --> 0:28:43.000
<v Speaker 2>does it look like when something looks suspicious and it

0:28:43.040 --> 0:28:47.040
<v Speaker 2>doesn't turn out to be abuse, right, Like, sometimes more

0:28:47.080 --> 0:28:49.720
<v Speaker 2>than one kid in a family has a bunch of

0:28:49.800 --> 0:28:52.200
<v Speaker 2>weird health stuff and they realize it's like a genetic thing.

0:28:52.840 --> 0:28:55.160
<v Speaker 2>But it's like the only thing that can determine that

0:28:55.320 --> 0:28:59.280
<v Speaker 2>is an investigation. And certainly if a whole bunch of

0:28:59.280 --> 0:29:03.360
<v Speaker 2>suspicions are piling up over the years and for multiple

0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:06.600
<v Speaker 2>different things, then that certainly that's going to be germane

0:29:06.640 --> 0:29:08.680
<v Speaker 2>to an investigation whenever one happens.

0:29:09.240 --> 0:29:14.160
<v Speaker 1>Everyone listening. If you have any questions that you can

0:29:14.160 --> 0:29:17.680
<v Speaker 1>always go to munchausendsupport dot com. You can listen to

0:29:17.720 --> 0:29:22.280
<v Speaker 1>Andrea's podcast, which is so so brilliantly called Nobody Should

0:29:22.280 --> 0:29:26.920
<v Speaker 1>Believe Me. Andrew has tons of books and in closing,

0:29:27.000 --> 0:29:30.680
<v Speaker 1>I just want to know Sinjovi a youngin lighthearted question,

0:29:31.560 --> 0:29:34.040
<v Speaker 1>what's one registry item you couldn't live without?

0:29:36.200 --> 0:29:39.680
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, I think that are like our number

0:29:39.720 --> 0:29:41.600
<v Speaker 2>one thing. So I know you've done. I've listened to

0:29:41.600 --> 0:29:45.400
<v Speaker 2>several of your episodes on breastfeeding. Breastfeeding Oh my god,

0:29:45.760 --> 0:29:47.960
<v Speaker 2>couldn't do it. The first one could do it throughout

0:29:48.000 --> 0:29:49.880
<v Speaker 2>through in the chale after four months with my second one, so.

0:29:49.840 --> 0:29:52.680
<v Speaker 1>Mine, well done, not any of it. Who cares, It's

0:29:52.720 --> 0:29:54.120
<v Speaker 1>all insane, truly, do.

0:29:54.120 --> 0:29:56.680
<v Speaker 2>What you want, do what you want. But I so

0:29:56.800 --> 0:29:59.360
<v Speaker 2>we have we have had formula with both babies, the

0:29:59.440 --> 0:30:02.560
<v Speaker 2>baby bread Oh my god, what a miracle. Do you

0:30:02.600 --> 0:30:04.360
<v Speaker 2>know what a baby Bresa is? Oh?

0:30:04.440 --> 0:30:08.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, like Breza is an amazing It makes

0:30:08.200 --> 0:30:10.720
<v Speaker 1>the formula for you and keeps it up right, touch

0:30:10.760 --> 0:30:16.000
<v Speaker 1>a button, correct the correct machine. They're shaking up fucking

0:30:16.280 --> 0:30:19.840
<v Speaker 1>powders and mixes and all this. It does it all

0:30:19.880 --> 0:30:21.640
<v Speaker 1>for you. So the baby Breza, which is spelled b

0:30:21.760 --> 0:30:22.560
<v Speaker 1>r easysy A.

0:30:23.120 --> 0:30:23.360
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

0:30:24.160 --> 0:30:27.760
<v Speaker 1>And as you're coming upon your little ones first birthday.

0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:31.760
<v Speaker 1>At the time of this recording, you're older ones fifth birthday.

0:30:32.040 --> 0:30:33.560
<v Speaker 2>She will be five in October.

0:30:33.680 --> 0:30:36.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what advice would you like to give your children

0:30:36.640 --> 0:30:38.680
<v Speaker 1>as they get closer to their next birthdays?

0:30:39.080 --> 0:30:43.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, I don't know. I just think they're

0:30:43.040 --> 0:30:45.600
<v Speaker 2>the most wonderful little people. I just I think it's

0:30:45.640 --> 0:30:49.880
<v Speaker 2>so funny, seem like they're so cool.

0:30:49.960 --> 0:30:52.160
<v Speaker 1>Well, you're doing the right thing, which is I've got

0:30:52.200 --> 0:30:54.320
<v Speaker 1>nothing to teach you. You've got everything to teach me.

0:30:54.560 --> 0:30:57.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know. I just I think, like, you know,

0:30:57.240 --> 0:30:59.200
<v Speaker 2>the thing that we just always try and emphasize. I

0:30:59.240 --> 0:31:01.600
<v Speaker 2>know this sounds cheesy, but like we're really just trying

0:31:01.640 --> 0:31:05.120
<v Speaker 2>to like be kind. That's the most important thing. Like

0:31:05.160 --> 0:31:07.120
<v Speaker 2>how you treat other people as the thing that matters

0:31:07.120 --> 0:31:09.160
<v Speaker 2>the most. It's quite a wild world that we're all

0:31:09.200 --> 0:31:10.240
<v Speaker 2>sending our kids into.

0:31:10.800 --> 0:31:13.680
<v Speaker 1>I think everyone listening to this podcast would agree. And

0:31:13.760 --> 0:31:16.280
<v Speaker 1>I hope that we're all instilling that in our kids.

0:31:16.360 --> 0:31:17.680
<v Speaker 2>So that's like our only hope.

0:31:17.760 --> 0:31:19.520
<v Speaker 1>I know it's so lame, but I'm like, can we

0:31:19.600 --> 0:31:21.600
<v Speaker 1>please try to make the world a better place because

0:31:21.640 --> 0:31:22.640
<v Speaker 1>we done fucked up.

0:31:22.920 --> 0:31:25.040
<v Speaker 2>I will always be proud of my kids. Whatever else

0:31:25.080 --> 0:31:27.720
<v Speaker 2>they do, achieve, don't achieve, whatever, as long as they're

0:31:27.800 --> 0:31:29.960
<v Speaker 2>like good to other people, You're like, just be like,

0:31:30.200 --> 0:31:31.840
<v Speaker 2>be good to the people in your life.

0:31:31.760 --> 0:31:37.160
<v Speaker 1>Ye test, Yeah, and last question, finish this sentence. Parenthood

0:31:37.440 --> 0:31:43.600
<v Speaker 1>is a wild ride, truly. Thank you so much, Andrea

0:31:43.680 --> 0:31:46.360
<v Speaker 1>Dunlop for coming on Katie's Crib. I really appreciate you

0:31:46.400 --> 0:31:49.080
<v Speaker 1>opening up our eyes and our ears and our experiences

0:31:49.120 --> 0:31:51.560
<v Speaker 1>to this horrible thing that has so closely affected you

0:31:51.600 --> 0:31:56.040
<v Speaker 1>and your family. Please everyone listen to Andrew's podcast, Her

0:31:56.080 --> 0:31:59.240
<v Speaker 1>Books Her, My gosh, You've so much going on, and

0:31:59.280 --> 0:32:01.160
<v Speaker 1>I can't believe almost fell over when you were like,

0:32:01.200 --> 0:32:03.200
<v Speaker 1>here's all the books I've written in the podcast I

0:32:03.240 --> 0:32:05.040
<v Speaker 1>host and everything I do, and I have a ten

0:32:05.080 --> 0:32:09.680
<v Speaker 1>month old and a freaking almost five year old. Bravadio,

0:32:10.160 --> 0:32:10.720
<v Speaker 1>I don't.

0:32:10.480 --> 0:32:12.640
<v Speaker 2>Necessarily recommend it. I got a whole bunch of deals

0:32:12.680 --> 0:32:14.280
<v Speaker 2>went through right after I got pregnant. That is not

0:32:14.320 --> 0:32:15.680
<v Speaker 2>the timing I would have missed.

0:32:15.720 --> 0:32:19.760
<v Speaker 1>Wow, good for you. Thank you so much for coming

0:32:19.800 --> 0:32:22.560
<v Speaker 1>on Katie's Crib. It was a real pleasure and I

0:32:22.640 --> 0:32:23.640
<v Speaker 1>learned a ton today.

0:32:23.640 --> 0:32:32.480
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Thank you, Katie.

0:32:33.400 --> 0:32:35.640
<v Speaker 1>Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode.

0:32:35.720 --> 0:32:40.280
<v Speaker 1>I want to hear from you. Let's chat questions, comments, concerns.

0:32:40.720 --> 0:32:43.160
<v Speaker 1>Let me know. You can always find me at Katie'scrib

0:32:43.200 --> 0:32:48.800
<v Speaker 1>at Shondaland dot com. Katie's Crib is a production of

0:32:48.840 --> 0:32:52.680
<v Speaker 1>Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from

0:32:52.680 --> 0:32:56.240
<v Speaker 1>Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

0:32:56.280 --> 0:33:01.360
<v Speaker 1>you listen to your favorite shows. Oh my st