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Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's crib a production of Shondaland Audio in

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Speaker 1: partnership with iHeartRadio. What advice would you give to a parent, like,

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Speaker 1: if they suspect a friend of theirs has MVP, what

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Speaker 1: would be an appropriate way to recognize and support them

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Speaker 1: without overstepping any boundaries.

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Speaker 2: I understand how uncomfortable this is. I understand how terific

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Speaker 2: it is to think that someone in your life is

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Speaker 2: doing this. So I think we just all have to

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Speaker 2: keep in mind, like what the stakes actually are. If

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Speaker 2: this is happening, you have to report it. We always

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Speaker 2: recommend to people that they report it to CPS and

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Speaker 2: law enforcement because it is a matter for both of

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Speaker 2: those entities. And as my colleague, Detective Weber always says,

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Speaker 2: report it to both and hope that one of them

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Speaker 2: knows what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: Hello, everybody, Welcome back to Katie's CRIBB. How'd you like

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Speaker 1: that intro? You're getting a really chill Katie today, isn't

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Speaker 1: that interesting? And I got a great night sleep last night.

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Speaker 1: That's not the norm at all. I think it's like

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Speaker 1: my body's in full on preparation because I'm about to

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Speaker 1: embark on a whole bunch of days where I don't

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Speaker 1: have any childcare support. Adam is super busy in pretzel Land.

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Speaker 1: My parents aren't here, my nanny isn't here, et cetera, etc.

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Speaker 1: So it's like I'm in the calm before the shit storm. People.

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited about today's episode. It's probably one of

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Speaker 1: the most interesting Katie's Crib episodes we've ever done. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know much about the topic. I've done a ton

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Speaker 1: of research in prep all for our guest today, who

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Speaker 1: goes by the name Andrea Dunlop. Andrea is amazing. She

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Speaker 1: is an author, she is a consultant, She is a

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Speaker 1: podcast host herself, and she is coming on the pod

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Speaker 1: today to talk all about something called Munchausen by Proxy

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Speaker 1: and what her personal connection is to the topic. Her

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Speaker 1: previous novels include Losing the Light, She Regrets Nothing, We

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Speaker 1: Came here to Forget, Broken Bay, and her most recent one,

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Speaker 1: Women Are the Fiercest Creatures. Andrea is the host, like

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Speaker 1: I mentioned, of a true crime podcast called Nobody Should

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Speaker 1: Believe Me, and the show is dedicated to stories about

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Speaker 1: Munchausen by Proxy, and she talks about what her experience

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Speaker 1: was like working closely with people that have been through

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Speaker 1: such a painful situation. She's also the co creator of

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Speaker 1: Munchausen Support, which is a nonprofit dedicated to providing resources

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Speaker 1: for frontline professionals, families, and survivors dealing with Munchausen by proxy.

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Speaker 1: Andrea lives in Seattle, Washington with her husband and her

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Speaker 1: two children, Fiona and Column Welcome to Katie's Crib. Andrea, Hi,

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Speaker 1: Andrea Hi. It's such a pleasure to meet you.

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Speaker 2: Oh so nice to meet you too.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for sending me so many books. I'm so

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Speaker 1: impressed by the amount of things you have written. Our

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Speaker 1: listeners are all cut up in the know from our

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Speaker 1: intro to today's episode of How Impressive You Are. Munchausen

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Speaker 1: by proxy is something that a lot of people don't

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Speaker 1: know about, other than like the things they might have

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Speaker 1: seen in movies. You know a few storylines here and there.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain to our audience what exactly Munchausen bi

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Speaker 1: proxy is?

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Speaker 2: Yes, and thank you, Thank you so much for having

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Speaker 2: me on, Katie. Is such a pleasure to be here

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Speaker 2: with you. So munchhause On bi proxy is the criminal

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Speaker 2: act of exaggerating, inducing, or fabricating illness in your child Munchausen,

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Speaker 2: which is called the official DSM. That's basically when when

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Speaker 2: someone does those same things themselves, so again exaggerating, inducing

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Speaker 2: or fabricating an illness in yourself for the purposes of

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Speaker 2: sympathy and attention. Munchausen by proxy is the word I

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Speaker 2: use the most because that's the one people are familiar with,

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Speaker 2: if they're familiar with it at all, right, But then

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Speaker 2: I think that also adds to a lot of the

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Speaker 2: sort of confusion and mystery around the topic. They are

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Speaker 2: pretty closely related. But of course, wow, Munchausen biproxy is

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Speaker 2: especially important because it involves abuse of a child, whereas

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Speaker 2: Munchausen does not.

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Speaker 1: And when you have Munchausen or Munchausen by proxy, do

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Speaker 1: they know what they're doing or is it different case

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Speaker 1: by case.

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Speaker 2: That's a great question, because it's a really important point.

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Speaker 2: So Munchausen and Munchausen bi proxy are characterized by intentional deception,

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Speaker 2: you know, in the case of parents, like there are

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Speaker 2: some parents that may take their kid to the doctor

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Speaker 2: too much because they're anxious. Obviously, you and I are

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Speaker 2: both moms, especially like first time moms those things are

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Speaker 2: just in a different bucket, right, and much easier to

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Speaker 2: deal with, because then if the mom just really needs

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Speaker 2: some help, or even something really serious like postpartum psychosis,

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Speaker 2: then it's a question of okay, this needs help. They

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Speaker 2: are not intentionally harming their children with these offenders, And

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Speaker 2: again with those munch house and behaviors that we're talking about,

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Speaker 2: they understand what they're doing, they understand right from wrong.

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Speaker 2: In a criminal context, that's a really important distinction because

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Speaker 2: I think that people get very caught up in these

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Speaker 2: cases with what's going on mentally with the mother, and

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Speaker 2: I think that's just because it's so hard to wrap

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Speaker 2: your head around this behavior. And I would argue that

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Speaker 2: we should also be treating offenders when appropriate, But of

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Speaker 2: course you always have to be looking out for the

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Speaker 2: well being of the children. And so when you're doing

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Speaker 2: these investigations into this, what they're looking for is again

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Speaker 2: intentional deception, when someone is lying about what's in the

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Speaker 2: previous record, or inventing things where their child has tested

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Speaker 2: negative for something and then they go to another doctor

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Speaker 2: and say they tested positive for it. So that kind

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Speaker 2: of thing god again very different than like someone seeking

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Speaker 2: a second opinion, or someone who just has a child

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Speaker 2: that has a medical a bit of medical mystery thing, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean, of course that happens.

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Speaker 1: How can you identify if someone has Munchausen by proxy?

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Speaker 1: Is it just like it's like the intent is different.

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Speaker 2: I've become very convinced talking to experts that I think

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Speaker 2: we should be aware of like the warning signs. And

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Speaker 2: then also warning signs are not evidence. So the only

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Speaker 2: way that you can determine whether or not abuse has

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Speaker 2: occurred is to do an investigation that should be both

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Speaker 2: a CPS investigation and a criminal investigation, because CPS and

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Speaker 2: law enforcement, you know, they have two really different jobs.

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Speaker 2: This is something I've learned a lot about that's actually

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Speaker 2: been really fascinating for me. I think for parents, like

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Speaker 2: CPS is this sort.

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Speaker 1: Of looming that's child protective Service? Sorry, child Protective Service? No, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's good.

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Speaker 2: So CPS's job is to determine whether or not a

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Speaker 2: child is safe in the home, right, so not to

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Speaker 2: determine whether or not a crime has been committed. Law

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Speaker 2: enforcement is determining whether a crime has been committed. So

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Speaker 2: child abuse is of course a crime, and so really

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Speaker 2: the only way that you can figure out whether this

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Speaker 2: has been committed is to have someone do a full

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Speaker 2: medical record review. So again looking for those discrepancies, those

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Speaker 2: kinds of discrepancies that I mentioned, sort of someone going

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Speaker 2: to a bunch of different doctors and telling those doctors

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Speaker 2: different things. We see a lot of like parents interfering

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Speaker 2: with tests.

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Speaker 1: This is wild. Yeah, and okay, I'm interrupting. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: what are the things that so parents can fake something?

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Speaker 1: They can like you said, go to one doctor, go

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Speaker 1: to another doctor, lie and said something came out positive,

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Speaker 1: that was negative. They're actually meddling with medical information.

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Speaker 2: So when you take your child to the pediatrician, what

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Speaker 2: does that look like? You bring them in there and

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Speaker 2: the pediatrician says, mom, what's going on with your child? Right?

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Speaker 1: Everything normal? We have normal peeps, We have normal poos.

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Speaker 2: How are they eating?

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Speaker 1: How are they eating?

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Speaker 2: How are they sleeping? Yeah? Are there any other problems?

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Speaker 2: So I think that sometimes this gets mischaracterized as something

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Speaker 2: that can only be pulled off by this sort of

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Speaker 2: manipulative mastermind type of person, but in fact, it's unfortunately

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Speaker 2: very easy to commit. So doctors and pediatricians are trained

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Speaker 2: to take the word of their patients. And that's as

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Speaker 2: it should be, right because, of course, most parents would

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Speaker 2: never lie to a doctor about what's going on with

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Speaker 2: their child, especially some of these things we see in

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Speaker 2: babies and younger children. It's just as simple as a

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Speaker 2: mom going in and saying, oh, my child's just not

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Speaker 2: gaining weight and I don't know why. And then you

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Speaker 2: have these progressive interventions of first they put them on

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Speaker 2: one kind of feeding tube, and then they put them

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Speaker 2: on a surgical feeding tube and have all of these

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Speaker 2: interventions because they can't figure out why the child is

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Speaker 2: not gaining weight. And then the reason the child is

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Speaker 2: not gaining weight is because the mother is not feeding

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Speaker 2: that child. But a doctor sitting in an office with

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Speaker 2: a mother would never know that from a ten minute conversation.

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Speaker 2: That's the kind of thing that happens in these cases.

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Speaker 1: Wow, okay, tell us a little bit about your sister please,

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Speaker 1: and your own personal relationship to Munchausen by proxy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So starting off with some very important disclaimers. My

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Speaker 2: sister has not been charged with a crime. She has

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Speaker 2: been investigated twice. We have not been in touch with

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Speaker 2: each other for about twelve years now. My family and

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Speaker 2: I fell out. She cut us out of her lives

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Speaker 2: after the first investigation. So that is how I learned

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Speaker 2: about this. That's where I come to it. I had

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Speaker 2: these experiences with her before her children were born, where

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Speaker 2: she had some of these again Munchhaus and behaviors. Right. So,

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Speaker 2: the most notable of being she had said she was

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Speaker 2: pregnant with twins and lost them about six months in.

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Speaker 2: I completely thought she was really pregnant and it, however,

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Speaker 2: it all sort of unraveled. She did not lose that

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Speaker 2: pregnancy when she said she did. It's very much our suspicion,

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Speaker 2: collective suspicion that she was never pregnant at all. That

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Speaker 2: was the most alarming instance of lying about something about

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Speaker 2: her health. There were others. She shaved part of her

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Speaker 2: head in high school and said she was losing her hair,

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Speaker 2: and so that pattern had been going on for a

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Speaker 2: long time. It was just this thing that would come

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Speaker 2: in and out a bit. And then after her first

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Speaker 2: child was born, that's when we got really scared in

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Speaker 2: because we had those fears. She really cut us out

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Speaker 2: of her life.

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Speaker 1: What was she doing to her first kid that set

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Speaker 1: off the alarms? Before you were cut out of her life,

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Speaker 1: did you have personal experience of things that you saw

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Speaker 1: that she was doing. Obviously she had a pattern growing

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Speaker 1: up for whatever reason, and now she has a kid

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Speaker 1: and it transfers on to this child.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And of course, like I want to put all

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Speaker 2: the caveats because I want to say first of all,

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Speaker 2: that I do have a lot of documentation of a

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Speaker 2: lot of things, So I'll just say that that first off.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm not a mental health professional. I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to diagnose my sister with anything. I can only

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Speaker 2: sort of say what we observed and what we were told.

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Speaker 2: So her son was born a couple of months. Early

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Speaker 2: premies are, I've come to learn, extremely common in these cases.

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Speaker 2: Now I will say too that, like anything that I mentioned,

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Speaker 2: whether it's eating issues, premies, cistic fibrosis, just because we

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Speaker 2: see a lot of them in these cases does not

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Speaker 2: mean that we should be looking upon parents who have premies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like, oh my gosh, you were a premature labor

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Speaker 1: correct prox.

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Speaker 2: It's not a causal relationship that way. In fact, doctor

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Speaker 2: Mark Feldman, who's one of the top experts in the

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Speaker 2: country who I've gotten really close with. He has a book,

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Speaker 2: Dying to Be Ill, that profiles a bunch of people

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Speaker 2: who have much house and munch as of by proxy,

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Speaker 2: and he had a couple of perpetrators actually tell him

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Speaker 2: how they induced premature labor. He was born premature and

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Speaker 2: then had this failure to thrive thing happening. He was

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Speaker 2: just having trouble gaining weight. We were concerned because it

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Speaker 2: was progressing towards getting a GET tube, which is the

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Speaker 2: surgically placed tube. My parents went to my family doctor,

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Speaker 2: who had been our family doctor for like one hundred years,

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Speaker 2: and really at that point, we didn't know anything. We

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Speaker 2: didn't know the definition of this. We didn't know this

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Speaker 2: was really a thing. Just was like a bad gut feeling,

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Speaker 2: specifically because of the previous fake pregnancy and all that

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Speaker 2: sort of lead up. And so she was the one

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Speaker 2: who gave us that term, and she suggested that my

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Speaker 2: mom speak to my sisters, her son's pediatrician. My mom

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Speaker 2: went and did that, and we didn't know what was

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Speaker 2: going to happen after that. What happened was CPS did

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Speaker 2: an emergency removal. We did not know CPS was going

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Speaker 2: to be called. You don't know if you've never had

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Speaker 2: until you know a golement, right, if you've never been

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Speaker 2: in that situation where like CPS gets called, then you

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Speaker 2: have no idea what to expect, and it was very scary,

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Speaker 2: and we really tried to sort of like maintain that

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Speaker 2: contact with her, and my parents were just beside themselves.

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Speaker 2: They didn't know what to do. That investigation really came

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Speaker 2: to nothing. There was a CPS investigation, the state did

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Speaker 2: not make any attempts to take custody of her children.

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Speaker 2: It sort of just fizzled out.

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Speaker 1: Did he end up getting the tube? Did it go

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Speaker 1: down that track?

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Speaker 2: I believe not. Unfortunately, CPS revealed to my sister that

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Speaker 2: my mother had made that call, which they're not supposed

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Speaker 2: to do. You're supposed to be able to anonymously report

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Speaker 2: to CPS. And again, of course she didn't report to CPS.

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Speaker 2: She talked to the doctor. They revealed that information to it.

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Speaker 2: So it put sort of an immediate division in my

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Speaker 2: family of I can't believe you would ever think I

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Speaker 2: would do this, And if you're not with me, you're

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Speaker 2: against then you're dead to me, right, Yes, exactly exactly.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned in a previous interview in Vanity Fair that

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Speaker 1: your nephew the one we're speaking of. I'm assuming it's

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Speaker 1: this one, not her second child spent years suffering from

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Speaker 1: a series of medical ailments. So if you've been out

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Speaker 1: of touch, have you been able to find out anything

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Speaker 1: since then? How did you find out that there was

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Speaker 1: a CPS investigation a second time that she definitely was

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Speaker 1: in charge all of that.

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Speaker 2: We found out about the second investigation because a police

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Speaker 2: detective called us. So that was several years ago, and

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Speaker 2: that was with her daughter. That investigation went from twenty

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Speaker 2: eighteen to twenty twenty. Law enforcement was not involved for

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Speaker 2: the first time, so the second time, law enforcement was involved.

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Speaker 2: When law enforcement gets involved in a case like this,

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Speaker 2: one of the things they do is all of these

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Speaker 2: collateral interviews, right, So they're looking to talk to family members,

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Speaker 2: talk to the school teachers, any medical professionals treating the child,

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Speaker 2: anything like that. Obviously, we did not have information about

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Speaker 2: her daughter because we had never met her daughter, but

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Speaker 2: we'd heard things here and there over the years. She's

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Speaker 2: not in touch with anyone from my extended family anymore.

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Speaker 2: She's out of touch with all of her friends that

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Speaker 2: she grew up with. But we did find out things

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Speaker 2: here and there that she put on social media. She

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Speaker 2: had another baby that was born very premature and did

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Speaker 2: not make it. She posted a picture of that on

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Speaker 2: social media, so we heard about that. Her daughter, than

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Speaker 2: the one that she was investigated for, was born again

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Speaker 2: very premature, so I think at about twenty four weeks, which,

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Speaker 2: having been through a pregnancy, you'll know, that's very little

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Speaker 2: so early.

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Speaker 1: That's like six months right right at the sort of

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Speaker 1: right at the is it a viable pregnancy at all?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Oh wow. The hospital that was treating her daughter

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Speaker 2: posted like something on their care page about her, and

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Speaker 2: a relative sent it to us. But really, we got

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Speaker 2: this call from this police detective and then again they're

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Speaker 2: not able to tell you that much about the investigation,

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Speaker 2: but we just filled him in on our previous concerns

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Speaker 2: and some of these previous events. Also, my sister was

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Speaker 2: in the media, so she called up a reporter who

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Speaker 2: was doing a series on what he has characterized as

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Speaker 2: falsely accused mothers. I sort of know bits and pieces

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Speaker 2: I get, I guess is the answer.

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Speaker 1: Wow, And we just really don't know if your niece

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Speaker 1: or nephew are thriving, if they're okay, if they're safe.

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Speaker 1: My goodness, Now in your work, since this has so

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Speaker 1: personally affected you, and your family because of her disease,

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Speaker 1: which I guess she's never been technically diagnosed.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and I do. I do want to make

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Speaker 2: sure to put that caveat in now. Like everything I'm saying,

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Speaker 2: this is information that's in the public record, it's accessible.

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Speaker 2: No one gets diagnosed with Munchausen by proxy in the

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Speaker 2: absence of being charged with a crime. Right. So even

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Speaker 2: the famous case of our era, the Deiti Blanchard case, right,

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Speaker 2: the Gypsy Rose case, the only one anyone's heard of,

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Speaker 2: if they have heard of this at all, she was

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Speaker 2: never charged with a crime, and she was never diagnosed

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Speaker 2: with Munchausen by proxy. Right, So it's not something that

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Speaker 2: someone goes I'm having these tris now. I wish it was.

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Speaker 2: I wish it was right where if someone was having

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Speaker 2: right thoughts, having intrusive thoughts, they could go and seek help.

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Speaker 2: Even another pretty famous modern era case is the Lacy

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Speaker 2: Spears case. And she unfortunately killed her little boy, and

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Speaker 2: she was sitting in prison for it and still said

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Speaker 2: she didn't do it. It's not something where people take accountability

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Speaker 2: for it.

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Speaker 1: Like, you're not going you're not seeking to be diagnosed,

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Speaker 1: you're not seeking to be fixed, or you think nothing's

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Speaker 1: wrong and that this is normal.

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Speaker 2: Correct, it's characterized by deception.

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Speaker 1: What has surprised you the most from the stories you've

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Speaker 1: heard in learning from other MBP survivors.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly the similarities and the patterns are very strong.

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Speaker 2: So a lot of the feeding issues. Also a lot

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Speaker 2: of seizure disorders, allegedly so seizures that no one else

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Speaker 2: is witnessing. It's just an incredibly strong pattern. So I

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Speaker 2: think that has been very surprising to think, like, oh,

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Speaker 2: you have this very weird case if you look at

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Speaker 2: it in isolation, but then if you look at it

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Speaker 2: next to a bunch of other cases, they sort of

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Speaker 2: all look the same. And then I think the revelation

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Speaker 2: that most of the experts that I've talked to have said,

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Speaker 2: this is probably about as common as any other form

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Speaker 2: of child abuse. Not every other family on the block.

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Speaker 2: We all know somebody who we all have some sort

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Speaker 2: of tangential experience with, like childhood sex abuse, right like,

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Speaker 2: very few of us are going to go through our

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Speaker 2: life never meeting someone that was the survivor. And it's

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Speaker 2: the same with this and that that's what the experts believe,

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Speaker 2: and certainly my anecdotal experience having had the podcast out

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Speaker 2: and hearing from a lot of people would lead me

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Speaker 2: to believe that is true.

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Speaker 1: Also, wow, when you look back, is it like memento

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Speaker 1: where you're like, you look back on her life and

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Speaker 1: what she was like as a child, and you were like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, Like this has always been there. There

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Speaker 1: was Munchausen.

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Speaker 2: I don't really. There's certainly things like once we were teenagers,

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Speaker 2: like that thing with the hair and then the pregnancies,

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Speaker 2: but I had a really nice childhood with her, like

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Speaker 2: and that's one of the hardest things to square. And

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Speaker 2: it was really beautiful for me to get to meet

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Speaker 2: Hope you bar as siblings because we had a lot

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Speaker 2: of those same experiences where we just think my relationship

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Speaker 2: with this person ended in a really sad way. But

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Speaker 2: I still have all of these memories of them growing

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Speaker 2: up and they were a part of my family. I

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Speaker 2: think of it at this point as like a death, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: And so it's very hard to reconcile. Though this is

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Speaker 2: a long time ago that this happened, there was a

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Speaker 2: really long time that I was grieving losing that relationship.

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Speaker 2: That's still hard some days.

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Speaker 1: The cases that you've quoted talked about so far in

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Speaker 1: this episode. Do you think you could run us through quick?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So the Hope You bar case is the one

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Speaker 2: that we profiled in season one of my podcasts. We

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Speaker 2: interviewed her, which was that was a very fascinating experience

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Speaker 2: to sit down with her. So she is a woman

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Speaker 2: who spent ten years in prison for abuse of her

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Speaker 2: youngest child. The charges related to taking blood out of

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Speaker 2: her daughter via a central line that was one that

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Speaker 2: involved a fake cystic fibrosis diagnosis, and she poisoned her daughter.

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Speaker 2: So that yeah, these cases are very disturbing, but the

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Speaker 2: good news is in that one her daughter, I believe

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Speaker 2: just recently turned eighteen. Her and her other two kids,

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Speaker 2: they have a great dad and wonderful supportive family. So they,

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Speaker 2: as far as I know, are really thriving and did

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Speaker 2: really well. And I think that is a that's a

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Speaker 2: good story. That's a story of an intervention that went

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Speaker 2: in a positive direction. Well. Yeah, the other case that

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Speaker 2: I mentioned Lacey Spears, that was someone who killed her

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Speaker 2: four year old little boy via salt poisoning. She did

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Speaker 2: spend some time in prison. I believe she's out now,

387
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Speaker 2: and I believe her family stuck by her. It's very

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Speaker 2: interesting to me to see how which way the family

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Speaker 2: goes in a lot of these cases, because I've seen

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Speaker 2: a lot of family members that do stand by the

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Speaker 2: perpetrator and say she could never do this, she would

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Speaker 2: never do this, regardless of what evidence is put in

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Speaker 2: front of them. I think that's something I've really learned

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Speaker 2: in this process is that, like, people don't make decisions

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Speaker 2: about what they believe based on evidence the way that

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Speaker 2: we think they do right.

397
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Speaker 1: No, they make but on how they feel right exactly.

398
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Speaker 2: Their emotional truth. And like emotional is very strong, and

399
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Speaker 2: like the resistance to the idea that a mother could

400
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Speaker 2: do this, especially a mother who seems loving and loving

401
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,720
Speaker 2: is not acting in any way that seems psychologically abnormal.

402
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,400
Speaker 2: It's very disturbing to think that you could just have

403
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Speaker 2: this like lovely, nice mom next door, and then she's

404
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,960
Speaker 2: doing this in her secret life. The other case that

405
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,680
Speaker 2: is one that probably more people know about than any

406
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 2: other one is the Dede Blanchard case, which was fictionalized

407
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,679
Speaker 2: on that show The Act, and then there's also a

408
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Speaker 2: great HBO documentary.

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Speaker 1: Pole were obsessed with it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Joey King, Yeah, purcha shark Cat played TV Blanchard,

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Speaker 2: and so that is that is a very wild case.

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Speaker 2: That is one in which the victim actually conspired with

413
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Speaker 2: an internet boyfriend to murder her mother. Gipsy is in jail,

414
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Speaker 2: I think for maybe like one more year and then

415
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Speaker 2: she will be out on parole. But that sort of

416
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Speaker 2: has an extra element of wildness because of the murder.

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Speaker 1: Wow, how has your personal experience with your sister and

418
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Speaker 1: munch House in my proxy influenced you in raising your

419
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Speaker 1: own children?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. There was a long period

421
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Speaker 2: of my life where I didn't want to think about

422
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,680
Speaker 2: any of those events that had happened. Like there was

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Speaker 2: a couple of years after that first investigation when it

424
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 2: became very clear that I was not going to get

425
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 2: to see my nephew grow up. Where I just couldn't

426
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Speaker 2: even be in the room with a small child, you know.

427
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Speaker 2: So it's so painful. My life carried on. I published,

428
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Speaker 2: I got married, I got pregnant, And it really was

429
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Speaker 2: around the time that I got pregnant that I started

430
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Speaker 2: working on my novel and realized, like, oh, I think

431
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Speaker 2: everyone who becomes a parent, whatever your most difficult thing

432
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Speaker 2: in your family is like it will come back up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, And so.

434
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,640
Speaker 2: For sure that came up for me. And I think

435
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 2: it's been really interesting because the bulk of the time

436
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: that I've been working on the novel, the podcast, and

437
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 2: this nonfiction book. Some days I think what am I doing?

438
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 2: This is insane, like I've you know, through two pregnancies

439
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,880
Speaker 2: now in postpartum periods. But in fact it has been

440
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 2: cathartic and rewarding in a lot of ways. Every time

441
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 2: I talk about what actually happened in my family, that's

442
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 2: always hard, but I think talking to other people who've

443
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 2: been through it, giving people a voice to like come

444
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 2: on the show and talk about their experiences, getting some

445
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 2: of these experts on the air, and just getting that there,

446
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:43,120
Speaker 2: that information out.

447
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 1: It's huge.

448
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think one of the things that the situation

449
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 2: within my family has really made me feel very helpless.

450
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 2: I don't think the system worked as it should have worked.

451
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 2: That is a very frustrating and helpless feeling. So I

452
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 2: think like feeling like I could do a little something

453
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 2: for the sort of overall cause or talk help make up.

454
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: Oh you're doing a lot of something. Tell us about

455
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: the nonprofit you co founded called Munchausen Support.

456
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 2: Back in twenty twenty twenty twenty twenty one, I first

457
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 2: started meeting with this committee that's part of the American

458
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 2: Professional Society on the Abuse of Children, which is just

459
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,239
Speaker 2: a big umbrella organization that has nurses and teachers and

460
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 2: CPS workers and all kinds of people that just have

461
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 2: anything to do with child abuse. And so they have

462
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 2: a Munchausen Biproxy Committee, which is just a dedicated group

463
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 2: of professionals that works and shares resources. I'm now a

464
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 2: member of that committee and one of my sort of

465
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 2: functions on that committee was to try and help translate

466
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 2: some of this kind of out of this very academic

467
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 2: sphere that it lives in. And so one of the

468
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 2: first things I did was work with doctor Mark Feldman,

469
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 2: who oversaw everything I did on this site, to create

470
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,239
Speaker 2: munch House and Support dot com, which is just an

471
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 2: online resource where you can find like warning signs and

472
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 2: information for therapists, information for teachers, for doctors, for CPS workers,

473
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 2: for law enforcement. That's just making some of that really accessible.

474
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: That's awesome.

475
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,479
Speaker 2: And then we're building on that work now and with

476
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 2: one of my colleagues, b Yorker, who's incredible. She was,

477
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 2: she's been like she was a nurse for thirty years.

478
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 2: She's a lawyer, she was a professor of law. She's

479
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 2: an incredible background in this. And she and our colleague Joe,

480
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 2: who is a survivor themselves, are working on these survivor

481
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,479
Speaker 2: support groups and we actually have them for family members

482
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 2: as well. And then we're also working on just getting

483
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 2: some more trainings out there talking to I've talked to

484
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 2: a couple of people actually got in touch because of

485
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: the podcast, getting some trainings at their hospital. Even doctors

486
00:25:52,520 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 2: often don't know that much about this, which is sucks. Yeah, yeah,

487
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 2: it's you would want everyone like.

488
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: To know so that there so if there's any red

489
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: flags or Spidey sense that's going off, we have to

490
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 1: protect the child.

491
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, And unfortunately, in a lot of these situations, doctors

492
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 2: really get vilified. I'm sure that is what happened in

493
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,640
Speaker 2: the media coverage of my sister's case, that they made

494
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 2: it sound like this doctor was like out of line

495
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: somehow to be reporting abuse, which is just insane. I mean, obviously,

496
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 2: like in every state in the country, doctors are mandated reporters.

497
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 2: People should be reporting. But I always worry that kind

498
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: of media coverage is going to have a chilling effect.

499
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 2: I think it would be insane to think that it wouldn't.

500
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 1: Wow, how old your kids now?

501
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 2: My daughter is four and a half and my son

502
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 2: is ten months old, so they're very Oh.

503
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 1: My god, there's so little. Okay, so we are no

504
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 1: way shape for near the time yet where you'll have

505
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: to be. Have you thought at all about if they

506
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: ever asked about your sister or cousin on that side,

507
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: like what that would be Like, I have.

508
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 2: Thought about that, and for now that's just a can

509
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 2: I'm kicking down the road.

510
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're got there.

511
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 2: We are years away. You're years away. I think that

512
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 2: it'll just be a matter of, like any difficult thing,

513
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,959
Speaker 2: just finding age appropriate ways to to explain that so

514
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 2: that it doesn't sound too scary. But it's like kids

515
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 2: don't actually they think about who's there, they know who's.

516
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: They're never going to know her. It's going to be a.

517
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 2: Long time down the road before they start thinking about, oh,

518
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 2: did you ever have a sister or anything like that. Yeah,

519
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 2: I think it all.

520
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: You know, what advice would you give to a parent,

521
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: like if they suspect a friend of theirs has MVP.

522
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: What would be an appropriate way to recognize and support

523
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: them without overstepping any boundaries.

524
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 2: It's really hard, and I can't tell you the number

525
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 2: of messages I've gotten or like people that will just

526
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 2: pull me aside when they see me in real life.

527
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 2: I always want people to remember, I understand how uncomfortable

528
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 2: this is. I understand how horrific it is to think

529
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 2: that someone in your life is doing this. So I

530
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 2: think we just all have to keep in mind, like

531
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 2: what the stakes actually are. If this is happening, you

532
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 2: have to report it. We always recommend to people that

533
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 2: they report it to CPS and law enforcement because it

534
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 2: is a matter for both of those entities. And as

535
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 2: my colleague, Detective Weberre always says, report it to both

536
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 2: and hope that one of them knows what they're doing.

537
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 2: It may go nowhere, but you have to report it

538
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 2: because then at least it will be documented. Right in

539
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 2: the second season, and we did some stuff about what

540
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 2: does it look like when something looks suspicious and it

541
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: doesn't turn out to be abuse, right, Like, sometimes more

542
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 2: than one kid in a family has a bunch of

543
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 2: weird health stuff and they realize it's like a genetic thing.

544
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 2: But it's like the only thing that can determine that

545
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: is an investigation. And certainly if a whole bunch of

546
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 2: suspicions are piling up over the years and for multiple

547
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 2: different things, then that certainly that's going to be germane

548
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: to an investigation whenever one happens.

549
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: Everyone listening. If you have any questions that you can

550
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: always go to munchausendsupport dot com. You can listen to

551
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: Andrea's podcast, which is so so brilliantly called Nobody Should

552
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: Believe Me. Andrew has tons of books and in closing,

553
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: I just want to know Sinjovi a youngin lighthearted question,

554
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: what's one registry item you couldn't live without?

555
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I think that are like our number

556
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 2: one thing. So I know you've done. I've listened to

557
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 2: several of your episodes on breastfeeding. Breastfeeding Oh my god,

558
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 2: couldn't do it. The first one could do it throughout

559
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: through in the chale after four months with my second one, so.

560
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: Mine, well done, not any of it. Who cares, It's

561
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: all insane, truly, do.

562
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 2: What you want, do what you want. But I so

563
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: we have we have had formula with both babies, the

564
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: baby bread Oh my god, what a miracle. Do you

565
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 2: know what a baby Bresa is? Oh?

566
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, like Breza is an amazing It makes

567
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: the formula for you and keeps it up right, touch

568
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: a button, correct the correct machine. They're shaking up fucking

569
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: powders and mixes and all this. It does it all

570
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: for you. So the baby Breza, which is spelled b

571
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: r easysy A.

572
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 2: Yes.

573
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: And as you're coming upon your little ones first birthday.

574
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: At the time of this recording, you're older ones fifth birthday.

575
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 2: She will be five in October.

576
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, what advice would you like to give your children

577
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: as they get closer to their next birthdays?

578
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I don't know. I just think they're

579
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 2: the most wonderful little people. I just I think it's

580
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 2: so funny, seem like they're so cool.

581
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: Well, you're doing the right thing, which is I've got

582
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: nothing to teach you. You've got everything to teach me.

583
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. I just I think, like, you know,

584
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: the thing that we just always try and emphasize. I

585
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: know this sounds cheesy, but like we're really just trying

586
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 2: to like be kind. That's the most important thing. Like

587
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 2: how you treat other people as the thing that matters

588
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 2: the most. It's quite a wild world that we're all

589
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 2: sending our kids into.

590
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: I think everyone listening to this podcast would agree. And

591
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: I hope that we're all instilling that in our kids.

592
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 2: So that's like our only hope.

593
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: I know it's so lame, but I'm like, can we

594
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: please try to make the world a better place because

595
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: we done fucked up.

596
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 2: I will always be proud of my kids. Whatever else

597
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 2: they do, achieve, don't achieve, whatever, as long as they're

598
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 2: like good to other people, You're like, just be like,

599
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 2: be good to the people in your life.

600
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: Ye test, Yeah, and last question, finish this sentence. Parenthood

601
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: is a wild ride, truly. Thank you so much, Andrea

602
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: Dunlop for coming on Katie's Crib. I really appreciate you

603
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 1: opening up our eyes and our ears and our experiences

604
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: to this horrible thing that has so closely affected you

605
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: and your family. Please everyone listen to Andrew's podcast, Her

606
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: Books Her, My gosh, You've so much going on, and

607
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: I can't believe almost fell over when you were like,

608
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: here's all the books I've written in the podcast I

609
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: host and everything I do, and I have a ten

610
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: month old and a freaking almost five year old. Bravadio,

611
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: I don't.

612
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 2: Necessarily recommend it. I got a whole bunch of deals

613
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: went through right after I got pregnant. That is not

614
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 2: the timing I would have missed.

615
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: Wow, good for you. Thank you so much for coming

616
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: on Katie's Crib. It was a real pleasure and I

617
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: learned a ton today.

618
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Katie.

619
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode.

620
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: I want to hear from you. Let's chat questions, comments, concerns.

621
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: Let me know. You can always find me at Katie'scrib

622
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: at Shondaland dot com. Katie's Crib is a production of

623
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from

624
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

625
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. Oh my st