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Speaker 1: The Hunting Collective is presented by Element. I guess I

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Speaker 1: grew up on hy Everybody, Welcome to episode one thirty eight.

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Speaker 1: I'm Ben O'Brien. I'm here with Philly engineer Phil. I

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Speaker 1: hated that. Thank you, Thanks man. I just like to

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Speaker 1: yell at people to get them make sure they're listening.

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Speaker 1: Worked on me, worked on you. Yeah. If you saw

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Speaker 1: the face that film made when I yelled into the

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Speaker 1: microphone was one of discussed, one of ang of deep

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Speaker 1: deep anguish um and despair. Well, we got a lot

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Speaker 1: of things to do today, but we have now I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna let Phil pronounce Ivan's last name, but we have

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Speaker 1: a wonderful neurosurgeon on the podcast today because I've been

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Speaker 1: thinking about since we went to Yellow National Park with

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Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Staylor some weeks ago and talked about mountain lions, wolves, predation,

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Speaker 1: all things that surround those very important topics. What is

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Speaker 1: the mind of a predator look like, what are their motivations,

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Speaker 1: what are their biological like, what are the things that

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Speaker 1: are like biologically tend to do or what are the

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Speaker 1: things that are driven to do by conditioning. I've been

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Speaker 1: thinking a lot about that. As I said, I make

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Speaker 1: quit podcasting and try to become a wildlife biologist. But

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Speaker 1: until then doing things like this. So I looked around.

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Speaker 1: I searched, I searched, I searched. I finally found a

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Speaker 1: neurologist who had studied what actually goes on in the

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Speaker 1: brain when it comes to predation. And so you'll hear

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Speaker 1: all about the study from Ivan Araujo. Perfect, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: go with that, Ivan d Araujo, We'll go with that.

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Speaker 1: And I even if we pronounce your name wrong, Phil,

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Speaker 1: pronounce your name wrong, I apologize on his behalf. Thanks Patty,

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Speaker 1: always looking out for me, Yeah, always always trying to

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Speaker 1: protect you. I haven't. Um. It was one of the

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Speaker 1: more interesting conversations, Phil. You listen to a little bit

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Speaker 1: of it. It was one of the more interesting conversations

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Speaker 1: that I've had. And sometime, just because of Ivan's delivery

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Speaker 1: of the information. He is, I'm sure that no one

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Speaker 1: listening to this has ever heard of him. He's the

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Speaker 1: study he did on predation specifically in mice UH and

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Speaker 1: how neurons fire in the central amygdala. I said that, right,

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Speaker 1: I've been practicing that. Good job. Um. That study I

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Speaker 1: think just sheds light on a lot of different things

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Speaker 1: about how we think about predators, how predators interact with

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Speaker 1: the world around them. And then he's he's studied a

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Speaker 1: lot of philosophy, so the way that he kind of

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Speaker 1: presents this very technical information seemed at least to me

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Speaker 1: and hopefully to you to be incredibly, incredibly helpful. So

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Speaker 1: I look forward to you guys get into that. We'll

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Speaker 1: get to that as quickly as we possibly can. And

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Speaker 1: again probably the to ivan for the name mess up. Well, Phil,

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Speaker 1: what did you think last week? Like, did you get

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Speaker 1: a lot of feedback from the David Hasselhoff exchange? Did

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Speaker 1: you did you feel more motivated? Your number was at

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Speaker 1: a five last week? Checked with you, Well, people were

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Speaker 1: inspired by David Hasselhoff in hiring me that I got

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Speaker 1: even more Instagram commons and messages, people offering their own

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Speaker 1: words of encouragement. Yeah, no, thank you to everybody out

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Speaker 1: everyone out there on Instagram. And then the emails that

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Speaker 1: have been encouraging Phil keeping his his and it's it's

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Speaker 1: were like in the dog days of August, we were

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Speaker 1: just talking about with producer kran before we came in here.

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Speaker 1: We're all kind of just feeling a little bit of

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Speaker 1: worn down, feeling dull um. I don't think my synapses.

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Speaker 1: It's a good thing we're talking to a neurologist, because

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Speaker 1: I don't think my synapses are quite firing just right.

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Speaker 1: I've been doing some things that I wouldn't normally do.

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Speaker 1: I've been missing some beats that I would normally hit.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's just been a long drawn out

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Speaker 1: I think seven years has it been since the pandemic begun? Yep? Yep,

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Speaker 1: almost eight almostly, So we're all just kind of feeling

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Speaker 1: worn down. But I have someone here too to keep

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Speaker 1: you going, Phil, to push you somebody else forward, someone else,

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Speaker 1: a good friend of the show. Hassle off, wasn't enough,

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Speaker 1: a good friend of the good friend of the show. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so now I'm not aware if this person has had

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Speaker 1: a music career, but we'll dig that up. If there's

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Speaker 1: any songs by this person, we'll dig that up. But

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Speaker 1: without further ado, play the music, philm and now a reading.

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Speaker 1: Hi Phil, I hear you are learning how to hunt Chuck.

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Speaker 1: Norris Leopold once said, we abused land because we regard

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Speaker 1: it as a commodity belonging to us. That's right. When

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Speaker 1: we see Land as a community to which we belong to. Thanks,

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Speaker 1: may begin to use it with love and respect. Chuck Norris. Then,

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Speaker 1: and I wish you the best, stay safe and all

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Speaker 1: the best your friend, Chuck Norris. Whoa Chuck Norris. Oh

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Speaker 1: my goodness, Chuck Norris. What do you think, Phil? Wow? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I ended at a five and a half from

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Speaker 1: last week. Yeah, Chuck Norris was a little more like

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Speaker 1: he was a little more subdued than David Hasselhoff. That's true,

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Speaker 1: but I think his words carried weight. And I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna go up a full number, Chuck six and a half.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Chuck Norris. I wish I had, you know,

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Speaker 1: Chuck Norris, Uh looks great. Bye the bye. Uh not

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Speaker 1: as many gold records on the wall compared to hassle Off. No,

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Speaker 1: he's like, you know, he's been a nice place because

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Speaker 1: al Leopold once we abused Land. That's right, we do

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Speaker 1: abuse Land. It's crazy that he just pulled that up

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Speaker 1: quote off the top of his head. Yeah, no, you know.

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Speaker 1: I called Chuck was like, hey Chuck, Charles, Charles, I've

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Speaker 1: been I got this problem, you know. And then and

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Speaker 1: the kind of guy that Chuck Norris is he's a

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Speaker 1: problem solver and he's not gonna We've seen it. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's not gonna let anything go go unsolved. And so

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Speaker 1: thank you to Chuck. What's you know what's Chuck? What's

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Speaker 1: his most famous movie? I have no idea but his show.

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Speaker 1: And I've got a history with this show. Uh, Walker

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Speaker 1: Texas Ranger. I'll say that that's the that's the highlight

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Speaker 1: of the Norris career. There it is, there is Oh,

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Speaker 1: I keep the guy ready in the face, the unsuspecteds

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Speaker 1: Drange chair had better know that he's a singer too.

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Speaker 1: From right, m Ranger you see it's not good, that's

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Speaker 1: great behind you because that's where the Rangers gonna be boom.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Chuck Norris, thank you so much. In the

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Speaker 1: early two thousand's, Conan O'Brien had a bit on this

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Speaker 1: show called the Walker Texas Ranger Lever, or he would

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Speaker 1: just pull it out and pull his lever and it

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Speaker 1: would play a random clip from Walker Texas Ranger without

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Speaker 1: any context whatsoever. And it was always completely absurd, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's what got me like completely shaped my

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Speaker 1: comedic sensibilities that that one segment. Yes, I apparently there's

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Speaker 1: a Walker Texas Stranger reboot last year, and so we'll

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Speaker 1: we'll hang on Chuck. Chuck is busy, but I mean

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Speaker 1: in the interest song. If you guys go and watch

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Speaker 1: the video, he roundhouse kicks the ship out of a

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Speaker 1: guy like harder than I've ever And so that's what

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Speaker 1: I feel like in your heart right now you're doing

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Speaker 1: to your hunting, to the to the challenges that will

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Speaker 1: be presented to you here. I mean that house's house

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Speaker 1: he's sitting in was was purchased by his roundhouse kicks.

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Speaker 1: That's what he's known fees of. Thanks well, thanks, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: friend of the show. I'll text you later, buddy. Um,

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Speaker 1: I know you're listening, so thanks, thanks so much. It

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Speaker 1: just just as in a side before we move on.

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Speaker 1: I don't know any of these people. Uh. The best

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Speaker 1: part about the and now reading, which may or may

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Speaker 1: not continue, I have no idea if if it's going

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Speaker 1: to continue not. And here's the reason why. Because there's

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Speaker 1: an app called cameo. I don't know if any of

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Speaker 1: you've heard of it, where I can pay celebrities to

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Speaker 1: say pretty much anything I want them to say. This

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Speaker 1: is disappointing. Yeah, you thought, another peak behind the curtain,

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Speaker 1: another show is just behind the scenes, behind the scenes. Um,

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Speaker 1: I've been paying you know, I paid hefty, hefty price

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Speaker 1: tag get Chuck to to do that. But it's worth

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Speaker 1: it to me. But then people were saying inside media,

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Speaker 1: they were saying, like, how do you can approval for

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Speaker 1: these funds? This is completely frivolous, And I said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it's awesome. It's content, baby content. So anyway, who

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Speaker 1: knows who knows? If right into meat eater at the

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Speaker 1: meat eater dot com and let them know that to continue,

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Speaker 1: these moneys are being spent in the best way possible

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Speaker 1: and also have an idea that's This has been the

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Speaker 1: most entertaining part of the quarantine for me, watching people

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Speaker 1: go like and close friends of mine go, how the

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Speaker 1: hell did you get David hass All, in fact, one

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Speaker 1: of my cousins brow It's like, you know David has All,

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Speaker 1: haven't heard of him in six years. It's your friends

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Speaker 1: with David hassel Off, Like yeah, man, yeah, good good bros. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Goes back to day Baywatch days. Anyhow, Cameo and I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna get on Cameo and Phil doesn't think we can

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Speaker 1: do it. Now this isn't again, isn't approved by the

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Speaker 1: bosses at meat Eat or anything. They don't want me

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Speaker 1: talking about very large asterisk in the corner of this

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Speaker 1: next upcoming sentence here. Yes, but I got this idea

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Speaker 1: where I'm gonna be on Me and Phil together will

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Speaker 1: be on cameo, and then you can pay us. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna go. I think fifty bucks a pop. Now that's

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Speaker 1: I know that's a lot. We're in a pandemic. I

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Speaker 1: think we can do it if we can get two

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Speaker 1: hundred people listening to my voice right now, listening to

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Speaker 1: this voice right now, two hundred people to give fifty dollars.

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Speaker 1: Me and Phil will do whatever you want. I think

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Speaker 1: it's clear that I'll do anything. I dressed up like

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Speaker 1: a fucking turkey one time and let Stevenella hunt me.

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Speaker 1: So I'll do whatever you want. I'll dress up like

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Speaker 1: every whatever you want. It doesn't really matter. Fifty bucks

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Speaker 1: two people. That's ten grand. I think I'm good at math.

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Speaker 1: I think it's ten grand. It could be a million dollars,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's ten grand. Take that tang grand.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna give it to a charitable organization of of

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Speaker 1: our choosing. That's my idea. Now that's not approved by anybody. Nobody.

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Speaker 1: A meat eator HQ has approved that. I have to

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Speaker 1: still like write an email and asked to do it.

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Speaker 1: I got to see see a couple of the whatever

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Speaker 1: suits or whatever. But I think we can. I think

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Speaker 1: we can pull it off. And I think Phil else

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Speaker 1: said to me before he record, he said that we

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Speaker 1: couldn't do it. He said, we can't get two people.

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Speaker 1: He said something like even my favorite podcast, I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: give fifty bucks for a video. But I think he's wrong. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I would love to I would love to meet that goal. Okay,

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Speaker 1: anything else, you wanna walk back your negative attitude? Nope, no, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I would love to meet that goal period period. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're not really doing that yet. Hopefully I'll get the

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Speaker 1: approval quote on the quote and we'll do it next

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Speaker 1: week or whatever. But I've already signed up for the

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Speaker 1: cameo app. I'm on there and I and let me

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Speaker 1: just reiterate one thing that's very important. Phil and I

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Speaker 1: will do anything. Ben will do anything. Phil and I

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Speaker 1: will do anything, will do anything. Anything you want us

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Speaker 1: to do. I want him to do on the cameo, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: thirty seconds. But anyway, thanks Chuck Norris. We'll see who

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Speaker 1: pops up next time on I'm looking at I'm looking

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Speaker 1: hard at Carol asking Phil bye the Bye. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if we can get her, do you really want a

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Speaker 1: reward of It's a reward is mine? The reward a murderer,

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Speaker 1: murder alleged. It's alleged she now owns a zoo by

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Speaker 1: the bye and a sanctuary. Anyhow, moving on, moving on, um,

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Speaker 1: we have to read a good email from our good

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Speaker 1: friend Luke Reef. Do you remember Luke Reeves. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Luke Reeves, him and his betrothed Lisa came on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: You know. He was the guy who I said, here's

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Speaker 1: how you get engaged, and then he got engaged and

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Speaker 1: came on. We gave a big my jacket. He also

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Speaker 1: wrote in when we were doing Dr Phil Medicine woman

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Speaker 1: when he had the rather short I believe it was

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Speaker 1: his uncle who was messing with him on their local property.

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Speaker 1: And this is directly just to you, Phil, So listen up. Okay,

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Speaker 1: dearest Phillium. It's been a long time since we corresponded

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Speaker 1: over electronic mail about my clash with the halfling to

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Speaker 1: say things are a little different in our country would

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Speaker 1: be an understate. So just to revisit Luke again, you

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Speaker 1: can go back and listen to episode fill in the blank.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember what it was, but there was a

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Speaker 1: quarrel but to a family member, quarrel between Luke and

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Speaker 1: his uncle, who apparently is not he's a slight of stature.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of a short fellow. And there was a

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Speaker 1: continual clash, and that he wrote in and asked Phil

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Speaker 1: for the advice, and I think Phil's advice. Do you

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Speaker 1: remember what the advice was? Phil? Of course I do.

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Speaker 1: I have something like do your best treat others like

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Speaker 1: you want to be treated. And as Luke Skywalker would say,

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Speaker 1: I want. I went on to go to Toshi station

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Speaker 1: to pick up some power converters. Perfect uh he and

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Speaker 1: he said, he goes on, Luke goes on. I had

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Speaker 1: been waiting to write in again until you guys got

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Speaker 1: your invitations to the wedding. But recently Ben wrote an

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Speaker 1: article about Hollywood's most ridiculous hunters, and he chose Joe Pesci.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't help but wonder if perhaps my emailed dismounting

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Speaker 1: little dildo Saggins may have planted that seat as hard

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Speaker 1: as that. This is for me to admit for reasons

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Speaker 1: that Ben knows. I believe Cal was right in his

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Speaker 1: views that having you read my email with all the

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Speaker 1: jokes included on air was the best thing to do

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Speaker 1: about said problem again the conflict between family members, and

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Speaker 1: there have been no issue since. So thanks to you, Phil.

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Speaker 1: You give me a lot of undeserved credit on this show,

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Speaker 1: and that's why I stick around. I don't know about you,

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Speaker 1: but I think that's a celebration worthy of fireworks, much

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Speaker 1: like bilbos a hundred and eleventh birthday. Of course, I

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Speaker 1: am joking, but as you learned from my previous email,

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Speaker 1: I can't let the opportunity to mock the vertically inferior

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Speaker 1: passed me by. Anyhow. In previous shows, you've had other

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Speaker 1: listeners right in to share their experiences in handling the

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Speaker 1: various quarantine guidelines and how it has affected their day

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Speaker 1: to day. Since March, when lockdowns and changes have started

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Speaker 1: in Nebraska, Lisa and I have closed on our house,

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Speaker 1: moved in together, listed and sold my old house, and

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Speaker 1: continue to plan a wedding that we have no idea

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Speaker 1: if it will be legal to have no Normally, I

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Speaker 1: would scoff at these safety ordinances. I'm an industrial electrician.

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Speaker 1: Every day I go to work would be my last.

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Speaker 1: And honestly, after you shared a porta potty with a

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Speaker 1: hundred strangers on the job site, there's not many germs

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Speaker 1: left that scare you. That's true. That's true. There was

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Speaker 1: just a There was just a construction site and big

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Speaker 1: sky where there were one hundred and sixteen positive because

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Speaker 1: they were all short. He goes on to say, I've

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Speaker 1: seen things, man, horrible things. Once once we had job

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Speaker 1: sites and other cities be locked down for outbreaks. I

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Speaker 1: scoffed no more. I've gone from anxious and afraid to

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Speaker 1: annoyed and angry and back again. It doesn't help that

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Speaker 1: everywhere is burning and there's no source outside of th

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Speaker 1: HC that I can trust. My younger brother, I'm so sorry,

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Speaker 1: Luke no used the force. My younger brother's fiance and

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Speaker 1: her office was destroyed in downtown Lincoln during the riots.

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Speaker 1: My father, who was a college football coach, was recently

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Speaker 1: just allowed to resume his coaching duties after twelve weeks

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Speaker 1: of wondering if there will ever be sports again, needles

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Speaker 1: to say has been an absolute ship show for this

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Speaker 1: long time listener. On the bright side, Lisa and I

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Speaker 1: drew mule Deer tags out West, and I drew an

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Speaker 1: Analop tag as well. So instead of asking a question,

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Speaker 1: what I would literally like to do is thank you

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Speaker 1: all for your continuing to give people like me a

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Speaker 1: break from the chaos that is our day to day lives.

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Speaker 1: I've enjoyed every single episode you've put out, and I'm

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Speaker 1: sure I'll need to do so. You guys at Mediator,

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Speaker 1: especially you Phil, may not be the hero as we deserve,

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Speaker 1: but you're the ones we need. Hopefully, come December, I'll

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Speaker 1: be able to write back about how great the wedding

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Speaker 1: was and how many people complimented the first light jacket

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Speaker 1: I wore instead of a suit. Who knows. Now I'm

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Speaker 1: off to enjoy a salty Gilbert. You stay classy, Phil.

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Speaker 1: That was a great email. Love forever and always, Luke

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Speaker 1: ps posted script and a completely unrelated note. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to tell you Phil that your cat's names are awesome.

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Speaker 1: I can tell you are a kindred spirit as my

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Speaker 1: cat's names are Penguin, Clyde, Frog and Baxter. Although he

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Speaker 1: goes by Tuna because he is an excess of thirty pounds.

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Speaker 1: Those are those are good cat names? Ben, What do

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Speaker 1: you think of those pet names? Horse? I thought you'd

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Speaker 1: say that it should be should be like Bridger culture.

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Speaker 1: It's all mountain men names. Yeah, exactly what I'd be

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Speaker 1: looking for out of my cats. What were your cat's

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Speaker 1: names again, meet Loaf and Kevin? I mean that said

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Speaker 1: together like that. I'm into it. Okay, I'm into it.

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Speaker 1: All right, Well, thank you, Luke, good luck on the wedding.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for checking back in all right, Episode five, work

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Speaker 1: sharps not to sharp moments, play the jingle fill sharp,

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Speaker 1: not to sharp moment so you don't have to All right,

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Speaker 1: this is a good one. We're gonna run through this

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Speaker 1: quick because we gotta get to Ivan. Um Mike pu

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Speaker 1: pe u h anybody wrote this? The fanatic spelling out

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Speaker 1: for me? B W Mike Pugh. He says, I just

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Speaker 1: returned from a much needed vacation with my wife my

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Speaker 1: two boys. Let me quick aside before we get the

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Speaker 1: Mike story. Do you should we give out people's full name?

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Speaker 1: I think if they provide them, yeah, that means their

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Speaker 1: their fault. I would provide they knew they You're part

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Speaker 1: of this. You're trying to get read on this podcast. Sorry.

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Speaker 1: We went down to the Florida Keys with our boat

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Speaker 1: and stayed in our favorite hotel for about a week.

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Speaker 1: The hotel sits on a very narrow channel that gets

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Speaker 1: extremely shallow at low tide. My sons aren't quite old

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Speaker 1: enough to drive the boat, and my wife has no

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Speaker 1: desire to ever learn. The majority of the boating responsibilities

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Speaker 1: fall on my shoulders. So like any good Keys vacation,

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Speaker 1: there was some heavy drinking involved in the evenings, which

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Speaker 1: would cause me to get up in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the night and drink about a gallon of tap water.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure most of you can relate. However, if you've

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Speaker 1: ever been to the Keys, you know there is a

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Speaker 1: unique smell to the tap water. Yes, I've been to

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Speaker 1: the Keys many times. When I filate the day's catch,

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Speaker 1: I have a habit of eating some raw as a

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Speaker 1: snack hold me over until I cook dinner, which is

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Speaker 1: generally completely safe given the right considerations. I believe it

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Speaker 1: was a combination of tap water and the poorly handled

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Speaker 1: raw fish and heavy drinking that led to the following events.

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Speaker 1: I mean it sounds totally on the line to me,

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Speaker 1: I don't think anything could go wrong. No, it sounds

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Speaker 1: it sounds like everything is great in your stomach at

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Speaker 1: this point. One day, we wanted to anchor up at

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Speaker 1: the sand bar after fishing. It's a short distance away

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Speaker 1: from our hotel, maybe a quarter mile. I got to

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Speaker 1: the sandbar, cracked a beer, took a sip, then I

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Speaker 1: jumped off to go set the anchor out. As soon

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Speaker 1: as I've been over to put the anchor in the sand,

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Speaker 1: I felt my stomach grumble and my butt cheeks immediately clinch.

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Speaker 1: I knew something was wrong, like really wrong. I needed

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Speaker 1: to ship, and they needed to ship. Now. This was

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Speaker 1: not normal. Bubble guts or b gs I called them.

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Speaker 1: My first instinct was to wade out deep into the

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Speaker 1: water and take care of business, but the current was

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Speaker 1: not in favor of the other sandbar attendees. Smart I

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Speaker 1: quickly had my wife and kids look back into the

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Speaker 1: boat for a speedy run back to the hotel. As

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Speaker 1: I meant and before, the channel is narrow and shallow,

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Speaker 1: especially at low tide. As I was navigating the channel

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Speaker 1: making the last turn, another boat approached, which was generally

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Speaker 1: no biggie, but my buttole muscle gave out, and I

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Speaker 1: again to ship. This seems like the climax of the story.

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Speaker 1: I looked at my wife and she instantly knew I

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Speaker 1: was starting to ship. I threw. I threw the boat

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Speaker 1: in neutral and hurled myself off the boat and held

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Speaker 1: on while the initial blast took place inside my shorts.

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Speaker 1: The water at this point was about waist high and

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Speaker 1: littered with you guessed it, jellyfish that like calmly at

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Speaker 1: the bottom until disturbed. Well, I disturbed them. The oncoming

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Speaker 1: boat had just seen this and adjusted according into deeper water.

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Speaker 1: I'm now shipping my brains out, trying to keep the

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Speaker 1: boat from getting stuck in the shallow water, and devising

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Speaker 1: a plan for getting back on the boat without getting

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Speaker 1: ship everywhere. Then back to the hotel room without everyone

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Speaker 1: noticing my ship filled shorts or ship running down my legs. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: the jellyfish are now in full sting mode. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how, I don't know how this ends,

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Speaker 1: but this has got to be in the top three,

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Speaker 1: not so. I told my wife to grab a towel.

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Speaker 1: I stripped my shorts and began to jump back into

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Speaker 1: the boat, shitty ass flapping in the wind just as

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Speaker 1: I'm getting my butt up into the air. Lady some

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Speaker 1: might call her Karen, made it a point to come

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Speaker 1: out of her third story balcony and struck me where

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Speaker 1: the channel was. I politely said, I was aware as

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Speaker 1: I stood up, butt naked with a shitty jellyfish stung ass. Oh, Karen,

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Speaker 1: Oh mind you. I probably could have tossed a beer

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Speaker 1: to someone on the dock from where we were. We

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Speaker 1: were very close to the hotel dock. I just couldn't

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Speaker 1: hold it. It's not like I gave up my butt

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Speaker 1: hole just failed to stay closed. I successfully docked the

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Speaker 1: boat and walked up to the room only only wearing

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Speaker 1: a towel, showered, and headed back to the sandbar to

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Speaker 1: finish my beer. That's the most triumphant part of this,

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Speaker 1: the fact that he wasn't so ashamed and so in

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Speaker 1: pain by the jellyfish sting on his ass that he

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Speaker 1: didn't just like, watch a golf match or something and

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Speaker 1: stead I'd say it's I'd say it's a it's noble.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if there's just another ship in your

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00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 1: pants story or not so sharp moment you'd be the judge.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for great podcasting. Keep up the work all from

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Speaker 1: Mr pu Mr Mike Pugh. Play the jingle Phil sharp

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00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:42,479
Speaker 1: not so sharp moment so you don't have to man, Uh,

403
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,479
Speaker 1: that's up there, that's up there. And this one has

404
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,480
Speaker 1: a lot of visual elements where you can picture yep,

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Speaker 1: him just trying to climb back in the boat. Just welts.

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Speaker 1: That was a rough one. That was a rough one.

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Speaker 1: And I I grew up going to the Keys. My

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Speaker 1: family in a house down there, vacation house growing up,

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Speaker 1: and then I stayed down there a while after I graduated.

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Speaker 1: And the Keys is a forgiving place though there's there's

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Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of drunk people doing a

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Speaker 1: lot of drunk things down the Keys. So this is

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Speaker 1: probably you know, three on the on the one to

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Speaker 1: ten scale. Appreciate you seeing the yes. Okay, Well, remind

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00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,439
Speaker 1: me to stay away from the Florida Keys anyway. Mike,

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Speaker 1: you for all this, uh should be ashamed of yourself

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Speaker 1: and and um apologize to your family. But also you're

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Speaker 1: gonna get a work sharp field sharpener for your efforts.

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Speaker 1: As always, go to work Sharps YouTube channel. Check out

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00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: their weekly hot tips on how to sharpen your knife

421
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 1: over there at work sharp. Now we have to get

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Speaker 1: to the most important thing of the day, Phil, Um,

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Speaker 1: what you're about to hear from Ivan. You're about to

424
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 1: hear Um the opportunity for you and I to be

425
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 1: part of a brain study. Yes, you you asked me

426
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 1: something about this? Yeah, so what you'll hear it in

427
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: the interview. I don't want to. I don't want to

428
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 1: break any news here. But there's a chance that they

429
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 1: could study my brain and Phil's brain and compare the two.

430
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: Meaning I'm hoping this one. I'm hoping that, as I described,

431
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: even this one I would hope for is that they

432
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: would hook me up to some you know, brain monitoring device,

433
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: hook you up to a similar, if not identical, brain monitorvice,

434
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 1: and show us pictures of different animals to see how

435
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: my predatory brain would react and how you're non hunting, soft,

436
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 1: mushy brain would Yeah, yeah, um, what do you think

437
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,239
Speaker 1: that sounds? That sounds fascinating. I'd love to do it.

438
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 1: But what if this steady takes place after you take

439
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: me hunting and my brain just what if we're rewired? Yeah,

440
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: what if we do before and after study Okay, because

441
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: you've already been motivated by the Chuck Norris, that's true,

442
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 1: and the David Hassel enough yeah, the um and so

443
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: maybe your brain already is starting to shift. But I imagine,

444
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 1: I do imagine, like, and I think about this legitimately,

445
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 1: if they showed me like a running bowl elk bugling

446
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 1: across the meadow, I would be immediately thinking of shot

447
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: placement or where I had to get to cut him off.

448
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: And you would probably well, one, look at wonderful, look

449
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 1: at the flowers. Beautiful, Yeah, beautiful meadow. Look at the yeah,

450
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: peaks in the back, snow covered peaks, glacial peaks in

451
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 1: the back, exactly. Um, so maybe we'll get there. Yeah,

452
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: And I'd say vice versa. You know, if they showed

453
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 1: me a picture of like a PlayStation Platinum trophy and

454
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: they showed it to you, like, I'd tell me started sweating,

455
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: and I'd be like, I don't know what You're like,

456
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 1: I don't know what that is. Looks nice? You should yeah,

457
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: clean that up a little bit. Um, all right, Well,

458
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 1: here we're gonna go. We're gonna get to Ivan. And well,

459
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 1: I I said a little bit earlier, I do think

460
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: all the silliness, all the things, all the ship stories aside.

461
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 1: This is the the This is the quintessential THHD episode

462
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: where we talk about all kinds of random stuff, Chuck

463
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 1: Norris and ship stories. And then we move on to

464
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:12,199
Speaker 1: a neuro scientist. Here's our friend, Ivan d Arajo. I

465
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: have an hour, you, sir, I am great, Thank you, well,

466
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: thanks for coming on. I think we have a lot

467
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 1: to learn. I know I have a lot to learn,

468
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 1: so excuse some of my questions that sound that are

469
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 1: coming from a layman's perspective. But before we get into

470
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: neurology and predatory behavior and trying to understand the brains

471
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 1: of ourselves as predators and predatory animals that we know

472
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: aren't so interested in um, tell us how you got

473
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 1: started in neurology and and the study of predation moreover, Yes,

474
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 1: so I started out to buy analyzing um brain images

475
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: of humans during feeding behavior. So my actual background, more

476
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: than biology, is in computer science, and I I did

477
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 1: work on AI and and I started out on my

478
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: PhD by analyzing magnetic resonance imaging brains of humans during

479
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 1: feeding behavior. So that's how I got into the field

480
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: of feeding behavior. So I got really interested in it

481
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 1: because feeding is basically the most important behavior of all

482
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: classes of behaviors. Without food, you can to do anything else.

483
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 1: You cannot um fight your enemies, you cannot made to procreate,

484
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: and everything else is secondary if you don't have enough energy.

485
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 1: So I got fascinated by how much of the brain

486
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 1: is taken by this very basic behavior. So I got

487
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 1: into this field by by analyzing humans. I studied how

488
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: the human brain codes for tastes, aromas, and flavors and

489
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: things like that. And then I moved into more experimental

490
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: models later on, where we studied with more detail or

491
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: the secretary of the brain that controls this type of behavior.

492
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 1: But that's basically how I got into it. I headed

493
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: this more quantitative background that led me to a laboratory

494
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 1: that was specialized in feeding but needed someone to look

495
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: at these um images, and that's how I started. Yeah,

496
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: I mean, I'd love to to kind of go through

497
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: what you learned studying the human brain and feeding. I mean,

498
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: I know there's so much that that we don't know,

499
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: and there's so much activity that we do that's just

500
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: inherent that we don't understand the function of. And so

501
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: what you know, what are the top line things that

502
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: you found out as you as you look at those

503
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: brains and looked at m R s and kind of

504
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: study what feeding means for neurology. Yeah, I think one

505
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: one thing that makes some not very exciting, but in

506
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: some way it is is that the human brain is

507
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: extremely similar to the primate brain in terms of which

508
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: areas in code or respond for food is stimuli. So

509
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: we have a very direct homology between the human brain

510
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: and the primate brain. And then because the primate brain

511
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: is also related to other, let us say, lower species,

512
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: then we can clearly see that the human brain preserved

513
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: um a lot of the let us say, the the

514
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: old secuitary associated with feeding. So clearly we are a

515
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: product of millions of years of evolution and a lot

516
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: of the secret is conserved, right. So this is one

517
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: aspect that is very clear. Another one I think is

518
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 1: the fact that or is the importance that thing like

519
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: memory and the and the subjective evaluations play in our

520
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: appreciation of food. So the way memories, even childhood memories,

521
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: and the influences by cognitive queues like what people tell

522
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: you and especially like the time of the day, these

523
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: are very important factors that influence a lot the way

524
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: the brain responds to food. So um. So I think

525
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: these two properties, the the the the conservation of I

526
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: mean with regards to other species, and also the influence

527
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: of other factors like the memory and the time of

528
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: the day. These are very marked and the very clear

529
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: um um modulators of how the brain respond to food. Yeah,

530
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: is there as you as you start to think about that,

531
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: because explain the circuitry that remains from our ancestors and

532
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: through our evolution. Modern eating is so different, and it's

533
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: you know, we're so wired to eat for comfort. We

534
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: eat for a lot of different reasons. How does how

535
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: does the brain handle that? The change in motivation, I

536
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: guess maybe a good way to describe it from from

537
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: the evolutionary eating eating for hunger and eating for survival

538
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,239
Speaker 1: to eating for the reasons we do in the more

539
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: modern sense. Yeah, exactly. So this is a very complicated question,

540
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: and and that's a very interesting one, and a lot

541
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: of people believe that this isn't at the heart of

542
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: the reasons for why we develop obesity and diabetes at

543
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: epidemiological levels, right, So I think one idea that cleared

544
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,239
Speaker 1: out over the years and and it's very consistent is

545
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: that we still use our primitive brain, the brain that

546
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: was in port and for survival in early evolution, in

547
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: our modern society. Right. So the brains that evolved to

548
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: take the opportunity to get food whenever available is still

549
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: operating in this modern environment where we have an surplus

550
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 1: of food. Right. So if we look at feeding behavior

551
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: um in the in nature and when we get into

552
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: the hunting story, this is going to become more clear.

553
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: Eating behavior is a very opportunistic behavior, right, And the

554
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: reason is that rather than letting hunger or your physiological

555
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: need to control your behavior, the best strategy for survival

556
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: is to take food whenever it is available. Right. So,

557
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: because what you want to survive is to start energy

558
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: in your body in in in mammals, it's mainly by

559
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: accumulating fat tissue. Right. So the chances of survival in

560
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: times of scarcity increase a lot if you are able

561
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: to store energy inside your own body so that you

562
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: can use it when you cannot have uh food external

563
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: food available. So the the this property of the brain

564
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: that to let animals surviving nature is there still pretty

565
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: much alive in our h in our modern lives. So

566
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: whenever we have the opportunity to eat even if your

567
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: our bodies do not demand energy, we are going to

568
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: eat right. So you may be crossing, like you may

569
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,719
Speaker 1: be walking down a street and you are thinking about

570
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: something else, about your next podcast or something, and then

571
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: suddenly you see a sign that appeals to you, like

572
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: a bakery or a certain restaurant, and suddenly you feel

573
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: this urge to eat right. Or you see something sweet

574
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: in front of you, even without you having any feelings

575
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: of hunger or nutritional deficiency. You you are going to

576
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: think it is a good idea, or you're going to

577
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: find it irresistible. So this property of taking the opportunity

578
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: to restore energy whenever available is um is very important

579
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: for survival and is what is leading us to this

580
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: overweight or and obesity epidemic because basically, we take the

581
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 1: opportunity to eat even when we don't need to. And now,

582
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: because it's so easy to have food, we can have

583
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 1: food at any time, we can order, we can go

584
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: to the supermarket, um, the the the, Then we we

585
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: just go for this surplus of food basically because the

586
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:08,479
Speaker 1: old brain secretary is still there operating as if we

587
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: were in a in a more difficult situation in a

588
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: time of scarcity. Yeah, is there is there a different

589
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 1: satisfaction you know, in the in the evolutionary sense, because obviously,

590
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 1: if you're you know, if you were an early hunter,

591
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: you're the satisfaction you got from eating was one survival

592
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 1: you knew you could get to the next meal. But

593
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: now the satisfaction we get is seems more pleasure based.

594
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: Um as I try to just like work through you

595
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: know what you're saying in the modern the modern way

596
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: we eat as opposed to how we evolve. Yeah, this

597
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,240
Speaker 1: is Yeah, this is another complicated question, and it comes

598
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: back to the notion that I mentioned about memories. Right,

599
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: So one property that animals developed and that includes humans

600
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: that is very clear, very conserved, and very rough, but

601
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: is to learn about nutrients. So when we eat something

602
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: that has calories or is very nutritive, we are going

603
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,720
Speaker 1: to remember it and the and that the the advantage

604
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 1: we get out of the energy somehow transforms in our

605
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 1: brain in the ability to find something pleasant. Right. So,

606
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 1: for example, there are classical experiments showing that if you

607
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: give an animal a borring flavor, say some weak grape

608
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: juice with no calories, right, and then you let the

609
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: animal drink this, but you pare this drinking with the

610
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: infusion of nutrients directly into the stomach, then the animal

611
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: will develop a very strong pleasure or motivation to eat this.

612
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: This borring drinking the future. Right, So when we associate

613
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 1: energy with something that we eat, we attribute reward to

614
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: this component that is paired with with calories. Right. So

615
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 1: a lot of what we call pleasure based eating is

616
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: actually derives from the fact that in the past we

617
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 1: ate these foods, we acquire the energy, The brain reward

618
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:36,280
Speaker 1: system detected this energy, and the formed this association between

619
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 1: that food and the physiological advantage, the survival advantage, and

620
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 1: we developed these preferences that we think are innate. We

621
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: think that things taste good in natally, but there is

622
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: a lot of learning going on throughout our lives that

623
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: built up this feeling of pleasure over time. Yeah, this

624
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: is this question I can't help but ask it now.

625
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: This is kind of the ultimate question I was thinking of,

626
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 1: along among a few ultimate questions. Actually, but when when

627
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: I kill, When I go out and kill an elk,

628
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: for example, if I just take my own experience, I

629
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 1: go kill an elk, I have this challenge where the

630
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: gamelike quality of of a basically a predator and prey interaction.

631
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: Or I kill this elk, I cut it up, I

632
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: bring it home, I butcher it at my house, I

633
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: freeze it, I get it out, I fall it, I

634
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: cook it, I eat it. I always explain, and many

635
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: hunters will will relate the same experience where it's so

636
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 1: there's so much more pleasure in eating it. The taste

637
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 1: is magnified or amplified. You feel something way different than

638
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 1: if you just went to the store and purchased that

639
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: the same a similar chunk of meat. It certainly elk

640
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: meat certainly looks more robust, more nutrient based. It's certainly,

641
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: and it gives you a different energy. And so I

642
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: wonder if if part of that is this nutrient reward

643
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 1: you're talking about or something else. This Yeah, yeah, this

644
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: is very interesting. I don't think there is a lot

645
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: of research exactly on that. But but to the but

646
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:14,399
Speaker 1: the as I was mentioned in the beginning, the the

647
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 1: ability of the brain to sense a taste and now

648
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 1: our ability to derive pleasure from it is highly dependent

649
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 1: on the associations that we form, right, So all the

650
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: cycle of behaviors you described from capturing a prey and

651
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: eating it and absorbing the nutrients. This, all all these

652
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:46,359
Speaker 1: elements um involved the brain reward circuitry, right, so they

653
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: reinforce each other into a pattern of sequential behaviors that

654
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 1: that become a unit. Right. So the ability to this

655
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 1: this greater pleasure that you made rise by eating this

656
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:06,839
Speaker 1: food that was, let us say, obtained through capture, is

657
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: associated with the pleasure that is linked to all the

658
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: other parts of the behavior that the capture itself, the

659
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: obtaining of the nutrients, the gut sensing of the nutrients,

660
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: and so on. So I think that, as I mentioned this,

661
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 1: this conscious perception of a better taste is actually modulated

662
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 1: by a number of unconscious processes, some of them coming

663
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: from the gut, that increase the reward value of a

664
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: taste in such a way that we consciously attribute to

665
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,240
Speaker 1: this greater pleasure, to the taste itself, to the chemical

666
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: that we have in the mouth. But this is pretty

667
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 1: much a central process that is influenced by other events

668
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:02,280
Speaker 1: that took part uh that took place in at different moments.

669
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 1: I don't know if that makes it better, ruins it,

670
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 1: but at least more Yeah, exactly, Well, yeah, I mean

671
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 1: I think yeah, And and then there are all the

672
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 1: type of cognitive influences that you may that may influence

673
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: that that impression you have. Yes, I think that's that

674
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: is the core question that we talked about on the

675
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: show a lot. Why do we why it in the

676
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,959
Speaker 1: modern sense to be hunt where we don't need to um? Why?

677
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 1: Why do we feel so satisfied by it? Why is

678
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 1: it so fulfilling? Essentially, why is there so much value

679
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: place in this? Why are we so why? Why are

680
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 1: we we so fueled by this act, both the activity

681
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: and the end result. Yeah, I think that it is

682
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: very similar to the question of why we have we

683
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: feel pleasure out of eating something when we don't need

684
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:08,720
Speaker 1: to eat, right. So that's basically because all feeding behaviors

685
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: are intrinsically linked to the parts of the brain that

686
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: control reward and pleasure. So every aspect of eating produces

687
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: this pleasure even when we do not have the physiological need.

688
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: So the question of why someone would hunt and kill

689
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: and and feel this appeal, I believe it's very similar

690
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: to the question of why someone would have desert even

691
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 1: after a large meal. It's because the circuits that operate

692
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:49,240
Speaker 1: feeding are is still very much alive in our brains

693
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: and uh, and and that they haven't not been selected out.

694
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 1: That's many people that are opposed to hunting in the

695
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: modern sense or say that, you know, the this ego,

696
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 1: killing and pleasure are all connected, and that's that becomes

697
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: like there's some sadistic elements to it, and there's an

698
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: unhealthy connection between this pleasure and this death, and that's

699
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:16,280
Speaker 1: something that is so extremely complicated. Um. But it's it's,

700
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,399
Speaker 1: you know, from a neurological perspective or even from as

701
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 1: you're mentioning now, an evolution perspective, it starts to make

702
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: a little more sense when we think about it from

703
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: your framing, Yeah, exactly. So clearly this behavior is something

704
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: that exists in nature and is important for survival and

705
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:38,800
Speaker 1: certainly survived or was conserved in the primate brain and uh.

706
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 1: And the question, of course that becomes a more society

707
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:50,360
Speaker 1: related question is how much of it is justifiable these days?

708
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 1: But I think that to the that to the behavior

709
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 1: itself is just part of a a very old pattern

710
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 1: of behaviors that essential for survival, and without hunting we

711
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: probably wouldn't be here, right. So, without this ability to

712
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: obtain energy that moves around that that was a very

713
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 1: part of this step in in um in evolution. Of course,

714
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: there are theories in psychiatry, for example, that associate predatory

715
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: aggression to to to premeditated aggression or aggression against the

716
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 1: target that is not attacking you. So there are a

717
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: number of situations where people can make links to uh,

718
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 1: let us say, psychopathology. But clearly the hunting behavior was

719
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: there for a reason and emerged an evolution to propel

720
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 1: the survival of a very large number of species. Is

721
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 1: there a point where you believe that evolutionary link could

722
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,240
Speaker 1: be broken, like those those circuits that you mentioned earlier

723
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: on could be you kind of erased or deadened enough

724
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: in our in our neurology that we're no longer you know,

725
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: thinking in this way, rewarded in this way. Yeah, this

726
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: is yeah, this is also interesting. So there are a

727
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: number of theoretical discussions about whether there's certain aspects of

728
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 1: our feeding behavior may be selected out, either because they

729
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: are no longer needed, right so we don't need to

730
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 1: use brain areas anymore for things that we don't use,

731
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 1: and also the health impact of our modern feeding habits

732
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: may actually impact on our ability to survive in the

733
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:53,959
Speaker 1: long term. So people have ideas about obesity and diabetes

734
00:45:54,000 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: influencing the selection of organisms in terms of their dietary preferences. Right.

735
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:09,800
Speaker 1: But so far, um these these traits have not disappeared,

736
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 1: or we we we we haven't been around long enough

737
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:19,240
Speaker 1: for this traits to be selected out. Some modifications uh

738
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: in in in our head clearly seemed to indicate that

739
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:31,240
Speaker 1: the mode of hunting changed and our and our food

740
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 1: preferences changed, and that affected the the genetic background of humans, like,

741
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: for example, the the size and the shape of the

742
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: jaws right, and the facial muscles. They are less um

743
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 1: uh specialized in in in tearing apart objects like other

744
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 1: animals like say cats or or dogs. But we have

745
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 1: very strong molar and premolar teeth that are are are

746
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: very optimal for say, mastication and the trituration of the

747
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,320
Speaker 1: plants and so on. So there are some slow modification

748
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 1: that happens over thousands of years, and it may be

749
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 1: that this tray to this pleasure that we derive out

750
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 1: of foods without physiological need may eventually disappear. But so

751
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 1: far it does seem that our brains um are very

752
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 1: much like the ones of humans when they were surviving

753
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: in the savannas and making the most out of it. Yeah,

754
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: it's incredibly interesting. We've talked about this on the show

755
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 1: before where my I have a three year old son

756
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 1: and he when he picks up a rocky throws it,

757
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 1: and that I never told him throw it or don't

758
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 1: throw it. I never told him what the consequences of

759
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 1: throwing it would be. And we've had other folks on

760
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: that say, well, that's that's coming from that. How we

761
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: evolve to you know, survive and to eat and to

762
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: affect the world around us was to throw things, Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah,

763
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 1: it's very important that these behaviors are not let us say,

764
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 1: do not require excessive planning. Is something almost automatic or instinctive, right,

765
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 1: and that obviously increases the efficiency. Yeah. Yeah, And it

766
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,320
Speaker 1: seems to me that our instincts in that way, especially

767
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 1: when killing animals and eating them or you know, those

768
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: predatory behaviors are they're pretty robust, like the over millions

769
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: of years they've remained in our circuitry, um, you know.

770
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: And so that balance between like from the Industrial Revolution,

771
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 1: when we starting to soften that those desires and make

772
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,399
Speaker 1: them obsolete in some way. It's it's it seems it's

773
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 1: it's good to hear from you that they're they're robust

774
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: enough within our evolution that that you think they'll remain Yeah, exactly.

775
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: I mean that that that it's a very um, almost

776
00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: universal behavior. There are some species that adopted out UM,

777
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 1: but the the the evolution of the jaw right, it's

778
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 1: very intrinsically linked to the ability to hunt other animals.

779
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 1: And that conferred, for reasons that are not totally clear,

780
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 1: an incredible evolutionary at advantage if two animals that developed

781
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: this this new articulation in the head that we call

782
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 1: it job Yeah, yeah, and I think um. And one

783
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 1: of the reasons the reason why I first read your

784
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:31,919
Speaker 1: original paper that we talked about, and we'll get into

785
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: that here momentarily, was that I went a couple of

786
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 1: weeks ago at a Yelsta National Park here in Montana,

787
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 1: and we tracked a mountain lion with a park biologist,

788
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 1: and we went and looked at some kill sites and

789
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 1: we talked about, you know, how these predators move across

790
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:54,240
Speaker 1: the landscape, their territories, their habits, you know, their biology,

791
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: the ecology of the situation and it started to click

792
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 1: to me, like, how did their brains work? What is

793
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: happening here to propel them um in a in a

794
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,879
Speaker 1: predatory sense. In this case, this mountain lion had killed

795
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 1: seventeen ungulates within a two month period um, And so

796
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: you know, it really propelled me to think more, is

797
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: there some study of the of the brains of predators

798
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 1: to tell us what's happening and then explain to us

799
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 1: maybe along the way, why we feel about them the

800
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: way we do, and if those feelings are correct, because

801
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 1: just um, if you allow me an explanation of how

802
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: I think it plays out in our community. One side

803
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 1: of the fence often thinks of predators as a competition

804
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,920
Speaker 1: for the modern hunter. Right, you're killing that all the elk,

805
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 1: That mountain lion is killing all the elk, or the

806
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: wolves are killing all the elk um, so we need

807
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 1: to eliminate them or not to have them around. And

808
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 1: there's another side that seems to celebrate a more um

809
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 1: top down approach, a more full ecosystem approach, like welcoming

810
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 1: those predators. And then you also have the habitation elements

811
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 1: of living around places where mountain lions live. That's not

812
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:06,320
Speaker 1: you know, if your poodle gets eaten, that's not very pleasant.

813
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 1: And so we end up having that that dichotomy in

814
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 1: our in our world, where you either meet someone that

815
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: completely of whores and hates predation and predators, and somebody

816
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: who seems to be more a little bit more accepting

817
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: of them or celebrating of them because they are charismatic

818
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 1: and they are interesting to us. So that's kind of

819
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: where I came from. I don't know where you want

820
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: to start with all where you think the best place

821
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: to start with understanding what it is. But you sent

822
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 1: me a book called The Authology of Predation, and it

823
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 1: starts in the introduction by just talking about what is

824
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: predation and how do we how would we describe it?

825
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 1: And I think maybe that's a that's a good place

826
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: to kind of get your you know, your initial thoughts on. Yeah,

827
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: I think that this is a a very interesting topic

828
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: and we we um don't know much about it, right,

829
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,320
Speaker 1: so why do we um? What seems to be clear

830
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: is that predation, as being part of a limentary class

831
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:13,240
Speaker 1: of behaviors, they have some intrinsic or innate patterns associated

832
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 1: with it that are ingrained in the brains of many animals.

833
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:22,760
Speaker 1: So if we look at studies performed in the past

834
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 1: on species that are, let us say, simpler in terms

835
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 1: of their brains or how their brain operates, especially reptiles

836
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: that sometimes are fierce hunters, we're going to see that

837
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:41,359
Speaker 1: there are some aspects of the sensory world that are

838
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 1: very important triggers for the display of the hunting behavior.

839
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 1: So in some species, just the detection of something moving

840
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: is sufficient to trigger hunting behaviors, and in many cases

841
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: an evaluation of the size of this moving object. So

842
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 1: when animals see a certain pattern of biological movement and

843
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 1: the UH they assess that the size of this object

844
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:19,319
Speaker 1: is relatively small, then there is almost as if there

845
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 1: is an automatic trigger for the display of predation. Right.

846
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: So um, as I said before, the they stimulus to

847
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 1: hunter does not seem to come from the physiological need

848
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:37,879
Speaker 1: of the body, but from an appeal that comes from

849
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 1: outside and UH and that this this display of the

850
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: behavior engages the brain reward secretary through a number of connections.

851
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 1: So this automatic motor behavior that is triggered by the

852
00:53:55,600 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 1: detection of a moving prey is um reinforced or enhanced

853
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 1: by the activation of neurons that are responsible for the

854
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: feelings of pleasure, let us say so. So that's basically

855
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 1: I think that would be the simplest way to understand

856
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:23,359
Speaker 1: how the behavior is generated and why it produces the

857
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 1: subjective feelings that it does, because evolution somehow selected circuits

858
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 1: that whenever a prey like is stimulus is present, the

859
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 1: whole pattern of neuronal activations is initiated, and that involves

860
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 1: both the display of a very well defined series of

861
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: motor behaviors, but also the engagement of this um neurotransmitters

862
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 1: in the brain that are very important for the sensing

863
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: of pleasure and and reinforcement. Yeah, this this As I

864
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 1: was reading about this, it's something struck me. You know.

865
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 1: It was explained that, like, if you're thinking about predation,

866
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 1: if you're thinking one animal feeding on animal feeding on something,

867
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 1: or essentially one animal feeding or one another, what you're saying,

868
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:22,359
Speaker 1: I think is that, you know, it's the consequence of

869
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,720
Speaker 1: the action of predation that kind of sets it apart,

870
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: because there's mutilation or destruction of an animal that is

871
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: offering resistance um agans being discovered or being harmed, and

872
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 1: and then the comparison made to like a parasite is

873
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: also looking to harm or eventually kill what it's feeding on,

874
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: but it's not looking for that resistance. It's not it's

875
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:48,400
Speaker 1: actually looking to keep its host alive long enough to

876
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 1: complete the life cycle. So that's that's something that struck

877
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 1: me about understanding predation. It does have this element of

878
00:55:54,400 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: hunting and resistance baked in. Yes, exactly that that's the Yeah,

879
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,760
Speaker 1: that's exactly that and the and uh, this resistance element

880
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:09,800
Speaker 1: is probably, let us say, automatically detected by the brain

881
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 1: by the moving pattern. Right, so the praise they escape

882
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 1: and you want to overcome there the escaping skills of

883
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:26,360
Speaker 1: the prey by performing an even more optimal motor sequence

884
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 1: that we will lead you to capture the prey. And uh,

885
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 1: and that that trait, that link between detecting biological movement

886
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 1: that you can interpret as a type of resistance and

887
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 1: the production of motor behavior seems to be an element

888
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 1: that is basically the core of hunting behaviors that we

889
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 1: find from insects to to higher vertebrates. Yeah. And it

890
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 1: was also interesting to read a little bit and learned

891
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:04,359
Speaker 1: a little bit about the the difference between types of

892
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 1: predation or types of predators specialists and generalists, and how

893
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 1: those specials and generalist kind of manifest and as a

894
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: type of like well maybe there's more food, maybe there's

895
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 1: less food, as a response maybe to their environment. Is

896
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 1: that right? Yes, exactly, So then you have the whole

897
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 1: layer of of possibilities, right that are basically determined by

898
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:33,439
Speaker 1: the environment and the physiological need of the animal. Right. So,

899
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:38,919
Speaker 1: for example, rodents, they they they are hunters, unlike what

900
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 1: people think, even the small rodents, they are very fierce hunters.

901
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 1: But they will they will go for things like an

902
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: insects and uh and larvae and the other objects. So

903
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 1: they tend to be more omni for compared to other

904
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 1: species because they have a higher range of choices. Right.

905
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:02,919
Speaker 1: Airs let us say, if you think of a big cat,

906
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 1: what would be a advantages for them to hunt is

907
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 1: more restrict right, because they need more energy. And also

908
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 1: they will develop skills and body features that fit to

909
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 1: the prey that living their environment. So this basically construct

910
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 1: of the brain coordinating different parts of the body, the

911
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:35,080
Speaker 1: jaw and the limbs um will is conserved. And then

912
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 1: you have variations on how this is executed and when

913
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 1: the behavior is triggered depending on the environment of the animal. Yeah,

914
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of a lot of this too.

915
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 1: You know, we're also looking at different types of hunting

916
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 1: within the predatory world, like communal hunting. Um, I don't

917
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 1: know this for sure, but I'm guessing wolves would fall

918
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 1: into that communal hunting ructure where they hunt together. Yes,

919
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 1: they coordinate, And maybe a mountain lion like the one

920
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 1: that we saw on a yellowstone is solitary hunters, and

921
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 1: maybe things are happening differently there in that circuitry. Can

922
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about the behavioral aspects of

923
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 1: success and what and and kind of how that all

924
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 1: lines up. Yeah, exactly, So, I mean we don't exactly

925
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:26,439
Speaker 1: know how these different strategies play in terms of how

926
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 1: the brains are constructed, right, So, so different animals will

927
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 1: develop different strategies. For example, some animals they have the

928
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 1: ability when they detect a prey to kind of freeze

929
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 1: and become immobile so that they are not detected by

930
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 1: the prey. So some species clearly have these brain function

931
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 1: that others do not to display the the ability to

932
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 1: hunting groups is also very important. It seems to be

933
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 1: a same show for prey for hunters. That is specialized

934
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:08,439
Speaker 1: in larger prey. Right, so you need several of your

935
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 1: own to um to be able to overcome a large prey.

936
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:18,160
Speaker 1: So in some species, like wolves, they seem to have

937
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 1: developed the brain circuits that understand what the other members

938
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 1: of your group are doing, so that some sort of

939
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 1: basic strategy is on display whenever there is a hunting behavior.

940
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:38,880
Speaker 1: And this seems to be particularly important for humans. Right.

941
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 1: So when humans is started to live in large communities

942
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 1: and developed communication skills, their the ability to overcome larger

943
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 1: prey by cooperating developed, right and that probably uh some

944
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:02,480
Speaker 1: authors believe that this is related to the relatively small

945
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 1: size of the human jaw, right, because when you're hunting groups,

946
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 1: you may be able to kill a large prey without

947
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 1: having yourself to go and bite the neck of the

948
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:18,320
Speaker 1: prey for example, and and and asphyxiated or or something

949
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 1: like that. So so this ability to communicate, this development

950
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 1: of a communicating brain changed hunting strategies, facilitated the development

951
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 1: of new bones and new muscles in the head of

952
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:41,840
Speaker 1: of humans and uh and uh. We are still to

953
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 1: understand exactly how the brain encodes this ability in an

954
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:54,840
Speaker 1: efficient way, especially in early hominids. And in including primates, right,

955
01:01:54,920 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 1: So many primates they have been shown by athologists to

956
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:04,520
Speaker 1: be able to hunt in groups and uh, and that

957
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:09,000
Speaker 1: they are very efficient. Right. So so this group as

958
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 1: opposed to individual prey hunting, UH, to covert primates are

959
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 1: certain groups of primates and and we still don't know

960
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 1: exactly how the brain is able to operate to this

961
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 1: type of behavior. H. And you think of as well,

962
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: like the variety of hunting tactics out there with with predators,

963
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 1: UM and thinking about how those things developed. There is

964
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:39,840
Speaker 1: this back and forth right about the prey species UM,

965
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 1: many of which I hunt, that are developing unique ways

966
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 1: to avoid certain predators. Right, because we already kind of

967
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 1: established that different predators summer general, summer opportunistic. We talked

968
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 1: about that UM with Dr Dan Stayler a couple episodes

969
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 1: ago for those listening that remember that conversation that wolves

970
01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 1: hunt so differently than and they're not as good of

971
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:04,560
Speaker 1: hunters as mountain lions, things of that nature. And so

972
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 1: they're developing both the prey and the predator are kind

973
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 1: of trying to outinvent each other. Yeah, exactly, like an

974
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:14,880
Speaker 1: arms race, Yeah exactly. There is a Yeah, I mean

975
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:19,520
Speaker 1: people who study um hunting behavior and in the very

976
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 1: specific ecological natures, they show you have some incredible back

977
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 1: and forth between the predator and the prey overcoming each

978
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:34,600
Speaker 1: other and in such a way that, yeah, there is

979
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 1: a continuous arms race and that the so if you

980
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 1: are if you are not able to capture your prey,

981
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 1: then you're going to die of hunger. Then there is

982
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 1: there must be some mutation that confers an an advantage.

983
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 1: Joy is slightly different animal. So certainly the development of

984
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 1: for example, group hunting is certainly one of those situations

985
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 1: where animals had to develop a new strategy right to

986
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:08,360
Speaker 1: to overcome prey today individually would not be able to.

987
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a very interesting back and forth. And

988
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 1: even to study the specialization of sensory modalities in the

989
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 1: nervous system, how audition or vision developed, A lot of it,

990
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:26,560
Speaker 1: if not most of it is propelled by the ability

991
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 1: to aid their hunt or escape a hunter. We see

992
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 1: that in in in the modern sense, I see that

993
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 1: quite a lot where you see animals that are conditioned

994
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 1: to do things, and conditioning being a lot of what

995
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:43,800
Speaker 1: we end up experiencing its hunters. You put pressure on

996
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:46,280
Speaker 1: an animal in one way and moves and adapts to

997
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 1: do something different. You put. You know, I've seen I have.

998
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:50,880
Speaker 1: I've had a recent elk heret. I've been tracking that.

999
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:52,760
Speaker 1: Last year they were up in the mountains this time

1000
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:54,919
Speaker 1: of year. This year they're out in a field laying

1001
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 1: under a pivot in the summertime, having water spread on

1002
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 1: them from the agriculture O pivot. And so you see

1003
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 1: how that conditioning must be impacting everything that both of

1004
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 1: these things, you know, both predator and prey do. So

1005
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:13,720
Speaker 1: we see it, I mean, yes, exactly, like yeah, Like,

1006
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:18,400
Speaker 1: for example, there are species of rodents and the lower

1007
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 1: animals that are very good in detecting the smell of

1008
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:27,080
Speaker 1: the urine of certain classes of predators and that scares

1009
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 1: them out and they learn to avoid these niches in

1010
01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 1: the future just because they detected the smell. So they

1011
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 1: are parts of the brain. Yeah that let us say,

1012
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:44,360
Speaker 1: upon detection of a danger queue will condition the animal

1013
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:48,320
Speaker 1: to change their behavior in the future. And uh. And

1014
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 1: the better you are at it, the better your nervous

1015
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:57,880
Speaker 1: system is in terms of um uh detecting these skills,

1016
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:01,959
Speaker 1: the more advantage you have against the europe bought it. Yeah,

1017
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 1: I think it gets to eventually gets to I'm probably

1018
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 1: skipping ahead of your wise, but it's another one of

1019
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:10,080
Speaker 1: the core questions that I had for you to see

1020
01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:13,920
Speaker 1: how you would would tackle this. We have often we

1021
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:18,440
Speaker 1: call it here charismatic megafauna, where we're attracted to bears,

1022
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 1: grizzly bears and mountain lions and wolves and these these

1023
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 1: apex predators in these landscapes were more we seem to

1024
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:28,440
Speaker 1: be more attracted than them. Many of folks that are

1025
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:34,480
Speaker 1: against hunting are most prominently against these types of of hunts.

1026
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:37,360
Speaker 1: You know, there's a huge battle for wolves and for

1027
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:39,360
Speaker 1: grizzly bears and different things of that nature here in

1028
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:43,680
Speaker 1: the States. So have you thought about why it is?

1029
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:46,640
Speaker 1: You know, what is is it everything we've already discussed

1030
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:50,120
Speaker 1: that that we're seeing ourselves in them? Or is there

1031
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:53,560
Speaker 1: just the how charismatic they are, how we can see

1032
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:57,439
Speaker 1: them having come of humanistic activities? Um, you know what,

1033
01:06:57,440 --> 01:07:00,480
Speaker 1: what is it? From your perspective? Yeah, I mean, I

1034
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 1: am not sure. This is a good question, and uh,

1035
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 1: it's a great it's a great question that involves quite

1036
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:10,600
Speaker 1: a bit of human psychology, right because when we think

1037
01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:17,040
Speaker 1: about charisma and other uh properties, we we we certainly

1038
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:21,480
Speaker 1: have some reflection about it that maybe other animals don't.

1039
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I think one way to think about it is,

1040
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:35,000
Speaker 1: um the realization of how wonderful these animals are when

1041
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:40,280
Speaker 1: they are accomplished hunters. Right, So, the an animal that

1042
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:45,600
Speaker 1: is an accomplished hunter has such a number of extraordinary

1043
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:50,479
Speaker 1: skills and uh and the personality traits let us say

1044
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 1: that we at least attribute to them that certainly influences

1045
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 1: the way we see them. Right So, even say domain

1046
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:05,120
Speaker 1: stick cats, the the if you look at an animal

1047
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:10,040
Speaker 1: like that playing or trying to capture a bird or so,

1048
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:15,360
Speaker 1: the precision of the movements, the the the the ability

1049
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:21,559
Speaker 1: that they have to perform extraordinary movements, there, fierce character

1050
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:29,320
Speaker 1: I think just basic basically um produces on us a

1051
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:39,880
Speaker 1: a feeling of amazement that we over time uh transform

1052
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:43,920
Speaker 1: into some sort of protective feeling. Right. So, I think

1053
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 1: it's basically this rough fact that the the accomplished hunters

1054
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 1: in nature are in many ways the most amazing or

1055
01:08:55,040 --> 01:09:00,479
Speaker 1: extraordinary special species out there, and that we can't help

1056
01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:06,880
Speaker 1: but detecting this these amazing properties. So that's how how

1057
01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:10,400
Speaker 1: I think about it, is just that they are extraordinarily

1058
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:16,439
Speaker 1: incredible animals from a biological perspective, how much refinement and

1059
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:22,439
Speaker 1: evolution is intrinsic to the behavior of these animals. Yeah,

1060
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:25,240
Speaker 1: that's quite interesting point. And I love the way that

1061
01:09:25,360 --> 01:09:28,240
Speaker 1: you articulated that, because there is this idea that we live,

1062
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:32,040
Speaker 1: you know, in many comedians friends of mine that you know,

1063
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:34,679
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan, a friend of mine, has as a comedy

1064
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:38,599
Speaker 1: bit about this little demon that lives in your house

1065
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 1: that's a kitty cat. And every time, yeah, every time

1066
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:46,360
Speaker 1: a potential prey bounces by the window, it's like I

1067
01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:48,960
Speaker 1: remember and it and it is I can never do

1068
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:51,240
Speaker 1: it as funny as he does it, but it's he's

1069
01:09:51,280 --> 01:09:53,519
Speaker 1: just saying that, you know, trying to make the overall

1070
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:56,120
Speaker 1: point that you're making. I think that just is, Hey,

1071
01:09:56,920 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 1: we have little predators running around our house that they

1072
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:03,080
Speaker 1: ships in our little boxes that we've made for them,

1073
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:06,200
Speaker 1: and we and we think of those things differently than

1074
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 1: we think of a mountain lion or some other thing

1075
01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:11,680
Speaker 1: that that it has the same baked in predatory instincts.

1076
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:16,240
Speaker 1: And so it's a you know that appreciation is just different. Yes, exactly,

1077
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:19,960
Speaker 1: it is very different. And the and from say a

1078
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:26,160
Speaker 1: biology biologist perspective, like to be the the the amount

1079
01:10:26,280 --> 01:10:33,120
Speaker 1: of of precision that is intrinsic to an animal like that,

1080
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:36,640
Speaker 1: it's just amazing. And and I think the most amazing

1081
01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 1: animals are became this way because they had to become

1082
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:48,600
Speaker 1: very efficient hunters in their environment. So so there is

1083
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:53,519
Speaker 1: this link between how incredible and animal is and how

1084
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:59,639
Speaker 1: much of a fierce hunter it is. So yeah, yeah,

1085
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:03,520
Speaker 1: And then again, as I was saying about predators earlier,

1086
01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:07,280
Speaker 1: I wonder if there is like a similar I don't

1087
01:11:07,320 --> 01:11:10,639
Speaker 1: know if you would say, like disengagement or a similar

1088
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:14,479
Speaker 1: unhealthy idea, Because there's one side that says, I love

1089
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:17,160
Speaker 1: these predators. We should never kill them. They belong in

1090
01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:20,840
Speaker 1: the landscape. And there's one side that says, I love

1091
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:25,799
Speaker 1: you know, I hate these predators. They're competing with me, um,

1092
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:30,639
Speaker 1: they're killing my livestock. There, they're the cohabitation just isn't working.

1093
01:11:31,360 --> 01:11:34,160
Speaker 1: And and and each of those two perspectives there seems

1094
01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:38,200
Speaker 1: like there's kind of an unhealthy connection present and even

1095
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:42,080
Speaker 1: in our evolution. Yeah, this is a very interesting question

1096
01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:47,080
Speaker 1: because in principle, we would imagine that our brains should

1097
01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:51,080
Speaker 1: develop some sort of a version to big predators because

1098
01:11:51,120 --> 01:11:54,800
Speaker 1: they are in principle a threat to us. Right, So,

1099
01:11:55,439 --> 01:12:01,360
Speaker 1: very often h scary images are related the two things that,

1100
01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 1: in some way or another become associated with hunting. Like

1101
01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:11,120
Speaker 1: so if you watch a terror movies, very often you're

1102
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:15,680
Speaker 1: going to see that the scariest images are related to

1103
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:20,519
Speaker 1: the display of jaws and teeth and especially a very

1104
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:25,000
Speaker 1: focused look at you. Right. So, things that look very

1105
01:12:25,080 --> 01:12:30,200
Speaker 1: threatening usually they have their eyes focusing on you, and

1106
01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:33,600
Speaker 1: in many cases they have jaws, so they can this

1107
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:37,439
Speaker 1: movie producers, they can make a little go girl look

1108
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:40,479
Speaker 1: very scary when they look at you, and they have

1109
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:45,000
Speaker 1: big jaws and big teeth. So somehow the fear and

1110
01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:52,080
Speaker 1: the aversion to hunting animals is um encoded in our brains,

1111
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:56,000
Speaker 1: right and uh. But at the same time, um, we

1112
01:12:56,200 --> 01:12:59,960
Speaker 1: developed this appreciation. This may be a sense of any

1113
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:07,120
Speaker 1: tation or or our innate interesting learning new skills that

1114
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:12,320
Speaker 1: is that is highly developing in larger animals like us.

1115
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:16,479
Speaker 1: So yeah, there is this dicotomy there, and I think

1116
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:21,519
Speaker 1: this dividing the community may actually UM, let us say,

1117
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:30,719
Speaker 1: reflect these two uh opposing uh properties that hunters may

1118
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:35,040
Speaker 1: evolk in the brain. On one hand, fear because we

1119
01:13:35,080 --> 01:13:37,759
Speaker 1: shouldn't be close to them, But on the other hand,

1120
01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:44,680
Speaker 1: the need to use them as examples for learning uh

1121
01:13:45,439 --> 01:13:48,960
Speaker 1: uh skills right that that and this is very human.

1122
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:54,400
Speaker 1: Humans like to learn new skills almost innatally. Kids are

1123
01:13:54,439 --> 01:13:57,560
Speaker 1: always doing this, and many animals do. Like if you

1124
01:13:57,680 --> 01:14:01,479
Speaker 1: see cats playing, they basically play like they were hunting.

1125
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:10,120
Speaker 1: You're on Instagram and all ivan, you ever been on Instagram? No? No,

1126
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:13,439
Speaker 1: I know, not really. I mean I didn't expect that

1127
01:14:13,479 --> 01:14:17,479
Speaker 1: you were. But yeah, you're too busy working on things

1128
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:20,559
Speaker 1: that are important. My kids are. I mean, they keep

1129
01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:24,160
Speaker 1: telling me about things and I don't know. I think

1130
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:28,120
Speaker 1: I I probably lost the past tword five minutes after

1131
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:32,360
Speaker 1: I tried it to something like that. Yeah. Yeah, Well

1132
01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:35,200
Speaker 1: there's something on there called Nature is Metal, and it's

1133
01:14:35,240 --> 01:14:38,240
Speaker 1: an account that's fairly famous where it's just an account

1134
01:14:38,240 --> 01:14:42,120
Speaker 1: that shows the most gruesome aspects of of nature. You know,

1135
01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:44,960
Speaker 1: it's a it's a seal getting getting chomped on by

1136
01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:48,960
Speaker 1: a killer whale. It's a wolf eating uh deer while

1137
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:51,880
Speaker 1: still alive. It's it's just kind of painting the picture

1138
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:54,759
Speaker 1: for folks that nature isn't all cartoons. It isn't all

1139
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:58,320
Speaker 1: you know, if there's so much gruesome parts of nature

1140
01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:00,240
Speaker 1: and then you know, so that's one side that kind

1141
01:15:00,240 --> 01:15:02,080
Speaker 1: of illustrates the point you're making. And then the other

1142
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:04,839
Speaker 1: one that I would choose is there I follow several

1143
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:11,320
Speaker 1: prominent wildlife photographers who show this beautiful animal, say a

1144
01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:15,559
Speaker 1: bear playing with cubs or a bear um palling at

1145
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:19,080
Speaker 1: the water for to capture salmon, and they're kind of

1146
01:15:19,120 --> 01:15:22,080
Speaker 1: like displaying the beauty of these animals. And then you

1147
01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:24,720
Speaker 1: have as the dichonomy we're trying to explain. I think

1148
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:28,360
Speaker 1: here nature is metal, which is there to say, like, yeah,

1149
01:15:28,400 --> 01:15:33,280
Speaker 1: they're beautiful, but look at how awful this actual act

1150
01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:37,320
Speaker 1: of survival and predation is, you know, for the prey.

1151
01:15:37,439 --> 01:15:39,920
Speaker 1: And so I think I think what you're saying plays

1152
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:42,960
Speaker 1: out in our society, you know, we and we see

1153
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:45,400
Speaker 1: it every day. We see people kind of setting up

1154
01:15:45,479 --> 01:15:48,240
Speaker 1: both of those straw men to say like, you know,

1155
01:15:48,280 --> 01:15:52,439
Speaker 1: look how look how gruesome, Look how beautiful? Yeah exactly,

1156
01:15:52,479 --> 01:15:55,400
Speaker 1: I think these two, these two things survived in our breath,

1157
01:15:55,520 --> 01:15:58,240
Speaker 1: and if you think about it, they are both important

1158
01:15:58,320 --> 01:16:00,720
Speaker 1: for survival. Right, So you want to escape, you want

1159
01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:04,439
Speaker 1: to be scared um of something that may eat you,

1160
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:07,880
Speaker 1: of course, But on the other hand, if if if

1161
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:11,840
Speaker 1: you want to compete in an environment for the same prey,

1162
01:16:11,960 --> 01:16:16,160
Speaker 1: you would rather learn from those who do it better

1163
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:21,439
Speaker 1: than you. And I think like, in somewhat subconscious way,

1164
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:26,880
Speaker 1: these two influences like a play out when we evaluate

1165
01:16:27,280 --> 01:16:31,040
Speaker 1: how much we like certain animals. Yeah, that's it's one

1166
01:16:31,080 --> 01:16:32,760
Speaker 1: of the core questions. I was wondering if you could

1167
01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:34,639
Speaker 1: help me suss out a little bit. And it's it's

1168
01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:37,519
Speaker 1: absolutely makes total sense what you're saying. And I think

1169
01:16:37,520 --> 01:16:40,960
Speaker 1: hopefully for everybody listening as we continue to go through

1170
01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:46,080
Speaker 1: these examinations of predator prey interactions and the importance of

1171
01:16:46,120 --> 01:16:50,320
Speaker 1: these predators and ecosystems that that we that we just

1172
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:52,519
Speaker 1: think back to this because I think this is a huge,

1173
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:56,000
Speaker 1: huge important point that you know, examines who we are

1174
01:16:56,080 --> 01:16:58,400
Speaker 1: and what we value and kind of is an is

1175
01:16:58,439 --> 01:17:02,080
Speaker 1: a weird psychological experiment. See how you approach predators and

1176
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:05,400
Speaker 1: what you think about predators out there in the world. Um,

1177
01:17:05,439 --> 01:17:07,400
Speaker 1: you know, I think that tells a lot about the

1178
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:12,960
Speaker 1: person that's talking or the person that's examining that that predator. Sure,

1179
01:17:13,040 --> 01:17:15,519
Speaker 1: and yeah, this is my my opinion, but that's how

1180
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:18,080
Speaker 1: I think about it now. It's I think it's really valuable.

1181
01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:22,000
Speaker 1: So I appreciate that, Um, but we have to actually

1182
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:26,000
Speaker 1: get to the part of the brain that you really

1183
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:30,280
Speaker 1: works this feeding behavior you talked about, you know, talking

1184
01:17:30,320 --> 01:17:34,240
Speaker 1: about how our jaws work. Um, forgive me if I

1185
01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:37,360
Speaker 1: butcher this, But it's the center of central amygdala. Is

1186
01:17:37,479 --> 01:17:41,040
Speaker 1: that right? Yes? Exactly, Yeah, tell us a little bit

1187
01:17:41,040 --> 01:17:43,800
Speaker 1: about the the amigdala and what it does. Yes, So

1188
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:49,800
Speaker 1: the amygdala is part of a um what used it

1189
01:17:49,840 --> 01:17:52,800
Speaker 1: to be called the lim big brain sometimes the rep

1190
01:17:52,920 --> 01:17:58,599
Speaker 1: bio brain, meaning that it's an area that is found

1191
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:04,599
Speaker 1: in almost every specious and any vertebrate species. Right. Unlike,

1192
01:18:04,640 --> 01:18:08,440
Speaker 1: for example, the more developed parts of the frontal cortex

1193
01:18:08,560 --> 01:18:12,920
Speaker 1: that are very human or at least primate specific, we

1194
01:18:13,040 --> 01:18:16,599
Speaker 1: have some parts of the brain that have been there forever,

1195
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:20,879
Speaker 1: let us say, since the beginning of the vertebrate lineage.

1196
01:18:21,360 --> 01:18:24,320
Speaker 1: So the amygdala has this name because it has an

1197
01:18:24,320 --> 01:18:28,400
Speaker 1: almond shaped, almond like shape, if you look at the brain,

1198
01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:31,080
Speaker 1: you can find it deep in the brain. It's very

1199
01:18:31,200 --> 01:18:37,200
Speaker 1: characteristic and it has different subparts. Right. So one of

1200
01:18:37,240 --> 01:18:42,960
Speaker 1: the the way anatomists like make they're living is by

1201
01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:50,320
Speaker 1: subdividing these things and giving them complicated names. Right, so um.

1202
01:18:50,360 --> 01:18:54,640
Speaker 1: So one subpart of this almond shaped part of the

1203
01:18:54,720 --> 01:19:00,360
Speaker 1: brain is the central amygdala because of its location, aation

1204
01:19:00,479 --> 01:19:05,000
Speaker 1: and so on. So this central amiguela is a very

1205
01:19:05,080 --> 01:19:09,120
Speaker 1: interesting area. So, as I said, this evolutionarily very old

1206
01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:15,040
Speaker 1: and it's traditionally linked to fear behavior. People believe that

1207
01:19:15,160 --> 01:19:20,000
Speaker 1: this area is very important for the display of fear

1208
01:19:20,160 --> 01:19:26,160
Speaker 1: like freezing or escape behaviors. However, when we were looking

1209
01:19:26,280 --> 01:19:30,560
Speaker 1: more carefully at the anatomy of this area, we noticed

1210
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:34,320
Speaker 1: that it's a very important area for the control of

1211
01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:38,519
Speaker 1: the jaw. So it I'm not going to get into

1212
01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:43,600
Speaker 1: borrowing details, but basically, the the the arms of this

1213
01:19:44,040 --> 01:19:47,719
Speaker 1: the cells in this part of the brain go down

1214
01:19:47,720 --> 01:19:52,799
Speaker 1: into the brain stem and somehow they control the motor

1215
01:19:52,960 --> 01:19:57,479
Speaker 1: neurons that open and close the jaw and allow the

1216
01:19:57,680 --> 01:20:02,760
Speaker 1: muscles of the jaw to imprint force on objects. Right.

1217
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 1: So essentially, what we noticed is that by looking at

1218
01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:12,200
Speaker 1: the anatomy and looking at some oder UH studies looking

1219
01:20:12,240 --> 01:20:16,679
Speaker 1: at the activity in this area, we found that these

1220
01:20:16,760 --> 01:20:21,439
Speaker 1: neurons this part of the brain is essential for predatory behavior.

1221
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:27,479
Speaker 1: So when we selectively destructed the neurons in this area

1222
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:34,080
Speaker 1: in MINCE, they were completely incompetent in their ability to

1223
01:20:34,280 --> 01:20:37,960
Speaker 1: hunt an insect. They could not kill the insect, they

1224
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:44,280
Speaker 1: could not capture and uh so they they they became

1225
01:20:44,400 --> 01:20:49,439
Speaker 1: completely unable to hunt. So that was very obvious that

1226
01:20:49,680 --> 01:20:54,840
Speaker 1: these neurons, this small group of neurons, is very important

1227
01:20:54,960 --> 01:20:59,600
Speaker 1: for the efficiency with which the animals hunt. On the

1228
01:20:59,640 --> 01:21:03,479
Speaker 1: other hand, when we did the opposite, when we over

1229
01:21:03,760 --> 01:21:08,559
Speaker 1: activated these neurons, then we were able to produce the

1230
01:21:08,760 --> 01:21:16,160
Speaker 1: display of hunting behaviors even in inappropriate situations. Right. So,

1231
01:21:16,240 --> 01:21:20,320
Speaker 1: for example, we got a little toy, one of these

1232
01:21:20,439 --> 01:21:23,680
Speaker 1: toys like that looks like a bug. We put it

1233
01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:27,280
Speaker 1: moving in front of the mice. The mice were scared

1234
01:21:27,439 --> 01:21:30,680
Speaker 1: initially of it, but as soon as we used some

1235
01:21:30,800 --> 01:21:35,920
Speaker 1: techniques to specifically turned on these neurons, the animals went

1236
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 1: and run after the toy, and uh we're biting the

1237
01:21:41,360 --> 01:21:45,479
Speaker 1: toy in an attempt that looked like they were trying

1238
01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:51,000
Speaker 1: to kill it, right, so they Basically this is small

1239
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:56,320
Speaker 1: group of neurons. It's very important for the ability of

1240
01:21:56,360 --> 01:22:01,240
Speaker 1: the body to coordinate two different muscles that display these

1241
01:22:01,320 --> 01:22:05,519
Speaker 1: very stereotypical behaviors. Right. And what is more incredible is

1242
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:08,479
Speaker 1: that even if you take an animal that is not

1243
01:22:08,640 --> 01:22:12,879
Speaker 1: a hunter, that never hunted a laboratory mouse, for example,

1244
01:22:13,600 --> 01:22:18,120
Speaker 1: that never hunted an insect or anything like it. The

1245
01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:23,400
Speaker 1: activation of these neurons will will be sufficient to make

1246
01:22:23,520 --> 01:22:28,320
Speaker 1: the animal display the hunting behavior, meaning that this behavior

1247
01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:34,080
Speaker 1: is somehow innally encoded in the brain of these animals. Yeah. Like,

1248
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:37,479
Speaker 1: so you're telling me that you could like give me

1249
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:41,840
Speaker 1: you could activate my neurons and make me a better hunter. Well, yeah,

1250
01:22:41,880 --> 01:22:44,240
Speaker 1: that's the that's a great Now, this is a great

1251
01:22:44,320 --> 01:22:49,639
Speaker 1: question because we don't really know the extent to lead.

1252
01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:56,240
Speaker 1: These brain areas changed over evolution. Right, So for example,

1253
01:22:56,479 --> 01:23:03,080
Speaker 1: as we were saying the beginning, uh, humans, they developed

1254
01:23:03,200 --> 01:23:08,080
Speaker 1: this ability to say too to hunting larger groups. Right,

1255
01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:12,840
Speaker 1: we have a central amygdala. It's very well conserved. It

1256
01:23:13,040 --> 01:23:17,879
Speaker 1: responds to a number of emotional stimuli. But the extent

1257
01:23:18,040 --> 01:23:21,040
Speaker 1: to each let us say, the joys controlled by the

1258
01:23:21,080 --> 01:23:26,920
Speaker 1: amigdla versus say vocalization that is very important for hunting. Right,

1259
01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:31,639
Speaker 1: may be different between animals like the amygdala, because these

1260
01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:35,960
Speaker 1: areas that control the jaw in addition to biting and killing,

1261
01:23:36,080 --> 01:23:39,519
Speaker 1: they are of course very important for communicating because we

1262
01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:43,800
Speaker 1: need to move the job, the tongue, etcetera. So it

1263
01:23:43,880 --> 01:23:49,000
Speaker 1: may be that this area took is slightly different functions

1264
01:23:49,360 --> 01:23:56,080
Speaker 1: as the type of hunting behavior changes in different species. Yeah,

1265
01:23:56,080 --> 01:23:58,920
Speaker 1: that's it's incredibly interesting, I say that kind of adjustment.

1266
01:23:58,920 --> 01:24:02,920
Speaker 1: Then again, I'm interested in the functionality of how within

1267
01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:04,960
Speaker 1: those mice that you're testing in a lot, how do

1268
01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:09,639
Speaker 1: you activate and then deactivate those neurons. What's the process? Yeah,

1269
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:14,839
Speaker 1: so this is a process that developed over the last

1270
01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:20,479
Speaker 1: ten fifteen years, and when I was starting out many

1271
01:24:20,600 --> 01:24:25,000
Speaker 1: years ago, I participated in some of the early experiments

1272
01:24:25,439 --> 01:24:29,799
Speaker 1: involving this technique. So basically there is a way now

1273
01:24:29,840 --> 01:24:36,760
Speaker 1: to stimulate neurons with very high precision, known as optogenetics.

1274
01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:42,760
Speaker 1: So it means that we use light to activate neurons.

1275
01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:47,439
Speaker 1: So the idea is basically the following. We uh take

1276
01:24:48,200 --> 01:24:53,479
Speaker 1: a gene from algae that is sensitive to to light

1277
01:24:53,600 --> 01:24:58,200
Speaker 1: at certain frequencies, more commonly a blue light. So this

1278
01:24:58,439 --> 01:25:03,160
Speaker 1: gene is protein that live in algae is sensitive to light.

1279
01:25:03,240 --> 01:25:07,400
Speaker 1: So we can take that gene, put it in a virus,

1280
01:25:08,080 --> 01:25:12,519
Speaker 1: and by injecting the virus in the brain, we can

1281
01:25:12,640 --> 01:25:18,360
Speaker 1: make neurons express that proteins. Okay, so the neurons that

1282
01:25:18,760 --> 01:25:23,720
Speaker 1: usually don't care about, say, blue light, they become sensitive

1283
01:25:23,960 --> 01:25:28,720
Speaker 1: to They become sensitive to light because they now have

1284
01:25:29,000 --> 01:25:34,400
Speaker 1: this protein in their outer coat. And this protein basically

1285
01:25:34,520 --> 01:25:41,000
Speaker 1: allows for changes in the electrical activity of cells. So

1286
01:25:41,120 --> 01:25:45,240
Speaker 1: basically what we do is we express this gene in

1287
01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:50,640
Speaker 1: neurons and we place an optical fiber over the neurons,

1288
01:25:50,720 --> 01:25:55,760
Speaker 1: so we can control laser poses with high temporal precision,

1289
01:25:56,160 --> 01:26:01,320
Speaker 1: and we can activate and deactivate within milites seconds as

1290
01:26:01,439 --> 01:26:06,599
Speaker 1: a given a pre selected group of neurons, and uh

1291
01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:09,920
Speaker 1: and and that's how we do it. So it's a

1292
01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:16,000
Speaker 1: big step forward compared to the old method for a stimulation,

1293
01:26:16,040 --> 01:26:19,679
Speaker 1: which was basically to place a wire in the brain

1294
01:26:19,800 --> 01:26:23,200
Speaker 1: and deliver currents to it. That is much less precise

1295
01:26:23,280 --> 01:26:27,760
Speaker 1: because the currency is spread over large areas. So so

1296
01:26:27,880 --> 01:26:33,080
Speaker 1: this is the technique that now many groups used to

1297
01:26:34,120 --> 01:26:40,759
Speaker 1: to manipulate exogenously. Let us say, the activity of certain

1298
01:26:40,840 --> 01:26:44,439
Speaker 1: groups of neurons that you want to control, is there

1299
01:26:44,720 --> 01:26:46,360
Speaker 1: this is something I'm thinking of. This may be too

1300
01:26:46,360 --> 01:26:48,000
Speaker 1: sci fi for me, and you may just tell me

1301
01:26:48,040 --> 01:26:50,679
Speaker 1: that's that's never gonna happen. But as I was thinking

1302
01:26:50,680 --> 01:26:54,320
Speaker 1: about this originally, I was I'm wondering if there was

1303
01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:59,040
Speaker 1: a way to examine my my brain saying like stasis

1304
01:26:59,160 --> 01:27:01,639
Speaker 1: or my brain just in a normal walking down the street,

1305
01:27:02,120 --> 01:27:05,559
Speaker 1: and then what's happening in my brain particularly probably the

1306
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:10,880
Speaker 1: center of magdala of when when I release an arrow

1307
01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:14,479
Speaker 1: and I know it hit it's target, or when I

1308
01:27:14,880 --> 01:27:20,200
Speaker 1: you know, finally come up because I've experienced wild emotions, um,

1309
01:27:20,240 --> 01:27:24,559
Speaker 1: when it comes to killing an animal for food, um,

1310
01:27:24,680 --> 01:27:33,200
Speaker 1: wild wild emotions, tears, uncontrollable laughter, just celebration like nothing else. Um.

1311
01:27:33,240 --> 01:27:36,040
Speaker 1: I felt the feelings of community and connection with other

1312
01:27:36,160 --> 01:27:39,840
Speaker 1: human beings I feel are a little bit more concrete

1313
01:27:40,000 --> 01:27:41,800
Speaker 1: in these activities. And I always wondered, is there a

1314
01:27:41,840 --> 01:27:44,719
Speaker 1: way to like what's happening in my brain during those

1315
01:27:44,760 --> 01:27:48,479
Speaker 1: moments and then what's happening as I'm just hanging out

1316
01:27:48,560 --> 01:27:52,160
Speaker 1: podcasting with you? Yeah exactly, I think that, I mean

1317
01:27:52,200 --> 01:27:55,960
Speaker 1: you you could perform like a UM, I don't know,

1318
01:27:56,040 --> 01:27:58,839
Speaker 1: I don't think this has been done, but you could perform,

1319
01:27:58,920 --> 01:28:04,160
Speaker 1: say imaging studies where you somehow simulate in a scanner

1320
01:28:04,240 --> 01:28:07,760
Speaker 1: a situation where you would be in the in the

1321
01:28:07,960 --> 01:28:11,519
Speaker 1: hunting mode, right, And uh, it seems to be that

1322
01:28:11,800 --> 01:28:16,439
Speaker 1: to me. That the this UH joy that you derive

1323
01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:20,479
Speaker 1: out of it is the product of previous associations, right

1324
01:28:20,600 --> 01:28:27,840
Speaker 1: where the act itself becomes UH more and more strongly

1325
01:28:27,880 --> 01:28:31,760
Speaker 1: associated with the feeling of pleasure, and there must be

1326
01:28:31,880 --> 01:28:36,840
Speaker 1: the involvement of UH neurotransmitter systems that are related to

1327
01:28:37,080 --> 01:28:41,160
Speaker 1: pleasure and reward and so on. So I guess that

1328
01:28:41,600 --> 01:28:46,360
Speaker 1: like people have made these studies, like say, for example,

1329
01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:51,440
Speaker 1: people who have I don't want to mean to compare

1330
01:28:51,479 --> 01:28:55,920
Speaker 1: the situation, but like, for example, suppose someone who there

1331
01:28:55,960 --> 01:28:59,559
Speaker 1: are many studies on people who developed addiction to drugs

1332
01:28:59,640 --> 01:29:03,800
Speaker 1: for amputure, cocaine or fetamine. So when they are in

1333
01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:09,280
Speaker 1: their scanner and they are shown images of say syringes,

1334
01:29:09,439 --> 01:29:15,519
Speaker 1: or of the drug itself, or even of people associated

1335
01:29:15,600 --> 01:29:19,200
Speaker 1: with the provision of drug, then all these systems in

1336
01:29:19,240 --> 01:29:25,800
Speaker 1: the brain linked to reward and pleasure are activated, right.

1337
01:29:26,240 --> 01:29:29,720
Speaker 1: So and it's very clear compared to pictures that I

1338
01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:35,400
Speaker 1: would say are more neutral, so um and and this

1339
01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:40,400
Speaker 1: is because this primary stimulus that is very pleasurable becomes

1340
01:29:40,439 --> 01:29:47,640
Speaker 1: associated with other cues, and the brain anticipates the pleasurable

1341
01:29:47,720 --> 01:29:53,439
Speaker 1: outcome and activated the networks in sequence. So I would

1342
01:29:53,479 --> 01:30:00,080
Speaker 1: say that certainly your brain would look very different. Uh,

1343
01:30:00,080 --> 01:30:05,040
Speaker 1: when you were shown images of hunting, for example, or

1344
01:30:04,960 --> 01:30:09,880
Speaker 1: of prey compared to whether you are shown something that

1345
01:30:10,080 --> 01:30:13,240
Speaker 1: is not moving, even food that is not moving. That

1346
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:19,680
Speaker 1: would be a very interesting study showing say, moving target

1347
01:30:20,280 --> 01:30:24,719
Speaker 1: prey and comparing it to bring responses to just a

1348
01:30:24,760 --> 01:30:27,240
Speaker 1: food on a plate for example. Yeah, like if you

1349
01:30:27,360 --> 01:30:30,479
Speaker 1: if you showed me an elk and a kitty cat,

1350
01:30:30,800 --> 01:30:33,200
Speaker 1: and then you showed a non hunter an elk and

1351
01:30:33,240 --> 01:30:36,800
Speaker 1: a kidy cat, well exactly, Yeah, what would be the

1352
01:30:36,840 --> 01:30:39,719
Speaker 1: difference as well. Listen, I'm all in for that study.

1353
01:30:39,760 --> 01:30:42,360
Speaker 1: If you ever get it going, I will be I

1354
01:30:42,400 --> 01:30:45,320
Speaker 1: will tell you study my brain. I am happy, happy

1355
01:30:45,360 --> 01:30:48,559
Speaker 1: to do that. That is super interesting. Yeah, it's super interesting.

1356
01:30:48,560 --> 01:30:50,519
Speaker 1: What what do we know is that the brains of

1357
01:30:50,600 --> 01:30:57,519
Speaker 1: animals that eight after hunting versus eight when after versus

1358
01:30:57,680 --> 01:31:03,400
Speaker 1: when they eat just regular food that was just sitting there,

1359
01:31:03,680 --> 01:31:08,040
Speaker 1: they look different, right, because you engage very different systems

1360
01:31:08,040 --> 01:31:12,559
Speaker 1: for the obitani of food. Eventually the nutrient sensing in

1361
01:31:12,600 --> 01:31:15,640
Speaker 1: the brain is going to look similar. But certainly there

1362
01:31:15,680 --> 01:31:19,599
Speaker 1: are major differences there that I would bet would look

1363
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:26,080
Speaker 1: very obvious. Because there's been some other report that you know,

1364
01:31:26,200 --> 01:31:28,519
Speaker 1: some more surveys and things where people are trying to

1365
01:31:28,560 --> 01:31:32,120
Speaker 1: determine the why of hunting, and a couple of a

1366
01:31:32,160 --> 01:31:34,479
Speaker 1: couple that I've read and well, I'm attempting to get

1367
01:31:34,520 --> 01:31:36,920
Speaker 1: some of these folks have done these studies on have

1368
01:31:37,120 --> 01:31:40,679
Speaker 1: landed on this term achievement as one of the main

1369
01:31:40,880 --> 01:31:43,280
Speaker 1: factors of why people hunt, or at least kind of

1370
01:31:43,320 --> 01:31:46,200
Speaker 1: the reward system for doing it, the motivation for doing

1371
01:31:47,160 --> 01:31:49,320
Speaker 1: And I think, after hearing a lot of what you're saying,

1372
01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:53,639
Speaker 1: achievement is a very um nebulous term in a way

1373
01:31:53,680 --> 01:31:57,800
Speaker 1: that we might say, I'm this achievement. I feel, I

1374
01:31:57,880 --> 01:32:01,559
Speaker 1: feel rewarded by the antlers on the wall, but I'm

1375
01:32:01,600 --> 01:32:05,560
Speaker 1: also feeling this very innate achievement of you know, predatory

1376
01:32:05,640 --> 01:32:10,400
Speaker 1: selection and of being a competent predator and all these

1377
01:32:10,439 --> 01:32:13,240
Speaker 1: things that are so connected to our neurology and also

1378
01:32:13,320 --> 01:32:16,000
Speaker 1: just to to who we are on an evolutionary scale.

1379
01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:18,479
Speaker 1: So would you if someone came to you and said, well,

1380
01:32:18,520 --> 01:32:22,800
Speaker 1: we we interviewed, you know, ten thousand hunters in and

1381
01:32:22,840 --> 01:32:26,479
Speaker 1: they and overwhelmingly achievement was the thing that they selected

1382
01:32:26,479 --> 01:32:29,160
Speaker 1: out is the reason they hunt the most. How would

1383
01:32:29,200 --> 01:32:33,760
Speaker 1: you kind of think about that term. Yeah, I mean, yeah,

1384
01:32:33,840 --> 01:32:38,599
Speaker 1: I think that that requires some yeah specification. Right, So

1385
01:32:38,840 --> 01:32:43,720
Speaker 1: we certainly humans have few achievements, um for things that

1386
01:32:43,800 --> 01:32:49,599
Speaker 1: are not obviously i'd advantages for from our evolutionary perspectives. Say,

1387
01:32:49,840 --> 01:32:54,320
Speaker 1: when we save a puzzle or a mathematical problem, right,

1388
01:32:54,400 --> 01:32:58,320
Speaker 1: we feel very good. We have this feeling of achievement,

1389
01:32:58,800 --> 01:33:02,400
Speaker 1: and the purpose of it is not clear, especially to

1390
01:33:02,560 --> 01:33:06,559
Speaker 1: people around you. Right. But the so so there, because

1391
01:33:06,680 --> 01:33:12,519
Speaker 1: hunting has such a biological importance, it certainly has something

1392
01:33:12,560 --> 01:33:17,439
Speaker 1: more intrinsic to it than just achievement itself. Right. What

1393
01:33:17,800 --> 01:33:24,040
Speaker 1: um maybe true is that the ability to hunt and

1394
01:33:24,120 --> 01:33:31,000
Speaker 1: the feeling of achievement uh generalized in more complex species

1395
01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:35,000
Speaker 1: like us in two other things. Right. So if we think,

1396
01:33:35,080 --> 01:33:38,840
Speaker 1: say sports, for example, right, our ability to chase a

1397
01:33:39,000 --> 01:33:42,840
Speaker 1: ball and get it and then hit it on us

1398
01:33:43,640 --> 01:33:48,760
Speaker 1: in a very specific location, um, and and other activities

1399
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:54,000
Speaker 1: that bring us uh the feeling of achievement. They maybe,

1400
01:33:54,360 --> 01:33:59,680
Speaker 1: let us say, situations that our culture created that some

1401
01:34:00,040 --> 01:34:05,160
Speaker 1: how are related to to hunting, right, very much like say,

1402
01:34:05,400 --> 01:34:11,080
Speaker 1: um uh, like cats like a small cats, for example,

1403
01:34:11,120 --> 01:34:14,559
Speaker 1: when they play, they play like hunting, They are not hunting.

1404
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:19,799
Speaker 1: They certainly have this feeling of achievement when overcoming their

1405
01:34:19,840 --> 01:34:23,759
Speaker 1: siblings or something like that. But but the the reason

1406
01:34:23,880 --> 01:34:27,640
Speaker 1: why this behavior is there is probably like the development

1407
01:34:27,760 --> 01:34:32,599
Speaker 1: of a greater hunting skills. So I think that it

1408
01:34:32,680 --> 01:34:37,080
Speaker 1: may be some sort of byproduct of a more primary

1409
01:34:37,240 --> 01:34:43,479
Speaker 1: achievement feeling that we derive from hunting and from other

1410
01:34:44,320 --> 01:34:50,400
Speaker 1: activities essential for survival like finding a mate for for

1411
01:34:50,560 --> 01:34:54,479
Speaker 1: sex and other things like that. Yeah, that's really interesting

1412
01:34:54,520 --> 01:34:57,080
Speaker 1: too that, you know, because we have this semantics game

1413
01:34:57,160 --> 01:35:01,160
Speaker 1: and in the hunting world today where we're talking about

1414
01:35:01,479 --> 01:35:03,400
Speaker 1: it as a sport, how do we describe it? Is

1415
01:35:03,400 --> 01:35:06,240
Speaker 1: it a sport? Is it a pursuit? Um? Are we harvest?

1416
01:35:06,320 --> 01:35:08,519
Speaker 1: Are we harvesting the animal? Are we killing the animal?

1417
01:35:08,880 --> 01:35:12,719
Speaker 1: We have this game of certainly elements of a public

1418
01:35:12,760 --> 01:35:15,200
Speaker 1: relations game how do how do people best take in

1419
01:35:15,240 --> 01:35:17,880
Speaker 1: this activity? But there's also I think a struggle within

1420
01:35:17,920 --> 01:35:20,200
Speaker 1: our own minds to say, like is it a sport?

1421
01:35:20,280 --> 01:35:22,720
Speaker 1: If we call a sport, does that give the right

1422
01:35:22,760 --> 01:35:26,920
Speaker 1: reverence to the death involved? Um? And we've talked recently

1423
01:35:26,960 --> 01:35:30,120
Speaker 1: on the show about this game like quality within within

1424
01:35:30,160 --> 01:35:33,559
Speaker 1: the hunting pursuit, where there is achievement, there is this

1425
01:35:33,960 --> 01:35:37,680
Speaker 1: developing of of immense skills. Um, and there is this

1426
01:35:37,840 --> 01:35:41,760
Speaker 1: risk reward system that we're involved in. So um. You know,

1427
01:35:41,800 --> 01:35:44,120
Speaker 1: it sounds like the words sport is a little more

1428
01:35:44,160 --> 01:35:47,840
Speaker 1: interesting than I thought before. Yeah, they may be like

1429
01:35:47,880 --> 01:35:53,920
Speaker 1: a cultural activities that somehow emulate um hunting and or

1430
01:35:54,040 --> 01:35:59,840
Speaker 1: or or hunting like activities that are evolutionarily older and

1431
01:36:00,400 --> 01:36:04,360
Speaker 1: uh and yeah, and they maybe even used as au

1432
01:36:05,160 --> 01:36:10,120
Speaker 1: as a way to say, for those who oppose hunting itself,

1433
01:36:10,200 --> 01:36:13,000
Speaker 1: it may be proposed as a way to overcome this

1434
01:36:13,160 --> 01:36:16,960
Speaker 1: primitive behavior and uh and display it in a in

1435
01:36:17,040 --> 01:36:20,680
Speaker 1: an in another setting in another way or something like that.

1436
01:36:20,760 --> 01:36:24,320
Speaker 1: But I think of that too. Yeah, this basic biological

1437
01:36:24,400 --> 01:36:30,519
Speaker 1: behavior survivors and other activities that somehow simulate hunting and

1438
01:36:30,800 --> 01:36:35,679
Speaker 1: somehow sparts. Could you could think of it as as

1439
01:36:35,800 --> 01:36:39,360
Speaker 1: one possible situation. Well that's interesting. Well I have and

1440
01:36:39,439 --> 01:36:41,040
Speaker 1: I really I think we could probably talk about this

1441
01:36:41,080 --> 01:36:43,479
Speaker 1: all day. I know I could. This has been there's

1442
01:36:43,520 --> 01:36:45,640
Speaker 1: been so many you know what I would just in

1443
01:36:45,720 --> 01:36:48,479
Speaker 1: terms revelations for me and how you're describing some of

1444
01:36:48,479 --> 01:36:51,400
Speaker 1: these essential questions that I've been asking myself and everyone

1445
01:36:51,439 --> 01:36:53,559
Speaker 1: I listen to the show. I think it's probably either

1446
01:36:53,560 --> 01:36:57,240
Speaker 1: ask themselves openly or maybe wondered about, you know, intrinsically.

1447
01:36:57,280 --> 01:36:59,639
Speaker 1: So if if I would would end by saying, if

1448
01:36:59,680 --> 01:37:03,639
Speaker 1: you want study my brain, please give me a call.

1449
01:37:03,680 --> 01:37:07,200
Speaker 1: I I'm really genuinely interested by this idea, and that

1450
01:37:07,200 --> 01:37:10,400
Speaker 1: that that I could understand a little bit more of

1451
01:37:10,439 --> 01:37:13,559
Speaker 1: what's going on, because the core of worth this is

1452
01:37:13,560 --> 01:37:16,559
Speaker 1: an episode one thirty seven or eight of of the

1453
01:37:16,600 --> 01:37:18,559
Speaker 1: show and we'll be doing it for two years. And

1454
01:37:18,600 --> 01:37:23,280
Speaker 1: I think the core ideas why do we do this?

1455
01:37:24,080 --> 01:37:26,640
Speaker 1: And then trying to explain that to other people, you know,

1456
01:37:26,920 --> 01:37:31,920
Speaker 1: to explain these very intricate, complicated activity. Yeah. No, I

1457
01:37:32,280 --> 01:37:36,360
Speaker 1: think woul would be a very interesting and uh we

1458
01:37:36,439 --> 01:37:40,679
Speaker 1: will come up with some good design and certainly will

1459
01:37:40,720 --> 01:37:43,000
Speaker 1: be fun to do that. I would love to do it.

1460
01:37:43,080 --> 01:37:45,559
Speaker 1: So if you keep in touch, and I'll keep bothering

1461
01:37:45,560 --> 01:37:48,479
Speaker 1: you about it until you start studying my brain. Okay,

1462
01:37:48,560 --> 01:37:51,559
Speaker 1: you never know what you're gonna find in there. Yeah,

1463
01:37:51,560 --> 01:37:55,000
Speaker 1: it's good to look very interesting, I'm sure. All right, Ivan,

1464
01:37:55,000 --> 01:37:58,840
Speaker 1: thank you so much for your time and we'll talk soon. Alright, best,

1465
01:38:08,200 --> 01:38:11,480
Speaker 1: that's it. That's all. Thanks to Ivan for that great conversation.

1466
01:38:11,520 --> 01:38:15,120
Speaker 1: Apologies to him for all the silliness and for trying

1467
01:38:15,160 --> 01:38:18,680
Speaker 1: our best to pronounce his name. But a lot to

1468
01:38:19,240 --> 01:38:21,280
Speaker 1: think about there. We're going to continue to kind of

1469
01:38:21,320 --> 01:38:25,520
Speaker 1: dive into the predator conversation, what predators mean on the landscape,

1470
01:38:25,560 --> 01:38:27,400
Speaker 1: what they mean for wildlife biology, what they kind of

1471
01:38:27,439 --> 01:38:30,840
Speaker 1: mean for our understanding of of wildlife management, and also

1472
01:38:30,920 --> 01:38:35,320
Speaker 1: ecosystems in general. I think it's an important conversation. In fact, Phil,

1473
01:38:35,880 --> 01:38:39,799
Speaker 1: in fact, next week we're going to have the return

1474
01:38:40,400 --> 01:38:44,840
Speaker 1: of Doctor Valarious Geist. Oh great, Yeah, I thought you're

1475
01:38:44,840 --> 01:38:47,120
Speaker 1: gonna say Dr Phil medicine moment. I was about to say,

1476
01:38:47,200 --> 01:38:49,880
Speaker 1: this is a terrible idea. We will never bring that

1477
01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:54,280
Speaker 1: dr back this one. Um. Much like since we've we've

1478
01:38:54,320 --> 01:38:57,760
Speaker 1: talked to Dan Flores, Dr Daniel Staylor, many others about

1479
01:38:57,800 --> 01:39:02,000
Speaker 1: getting really getting our minds right on predators, where they've been,

1480
01:39:02,200 --> 01:39:05,800
Speaker 1: whether they're going, cohabitation, and those types of principles, I

1481
01:39:05,880 --> 01:39:11,080
Speaker 1: would say that Dr Geist's opinion is level set completely

1482
01:39:11,120 --> 01:39:14,160
Speaker 1: against um what you hear from those folks and many

1483
01:39:14,200 --> 01:39:16,360
Speaker 1: others thin the conservation community. So we'll touch on that

1484
01:39:16,400 --> 01:39:19,679
Speaker 1: with him. We're also going to touch on his book

1485
01:39:19,720 --> 01:39:23,280
Speaker 1: with Shane Mahoney on the North American model of wildlife conservation.

1486
01:39:23,439 --> 01:39:27,519
Speaker 1: So hopefully you've been reading. This has been you know,

1487
01:39:27,560 --> 01:39:29,360
Speaker 1: at least a month over a month now since we've

1488
01:39:29,360 --> 01:39:31,639
Speaker 1: asked you to purchase that book and read it. Hopefully

1489
01:39:31,640 --> 01:39:34,360
Speaker 1: you've done so. We are going to be asking questions

1490
01:39:34,560 --> 01:39:37,439
Speaker 1: about that book next week on our first edition of

1491
01:39:37,479 --> 01:39:40,360
Speaker 1: the TC book Club with Dr Geist So we're gonna

1492
01:39:40,360 --> 01:39:43,920
Speaker 1: go through that book, um in detail. And if you'd

1493
01:39:43,920 --> 01:39:46,320
Speaker 1: like to ask him a question about that book, if

1494
01:39:46,360 --> 01:39:48,559
Speaker 1: you've read it, if you've kind of taken in its information,

1495
01:39:48,600 --> 01:39:50,760
Speaker 1: you'd like to ask him a question, please do so.

1496
01:39:50,840 --> 01:39:53,519
Speaker 1: Thh C at the mediata dot com, th HC at

1497
01:39:53,520 --> 01:39:56,240
Speaker 1: the media dot com. Um, if your comments and questions

1498
01:39:56,280 --> 01:39:59,680
Speaker 1: are good, insightful, even funny, we'll choose you and if

1499
01:39:59,720 --> 01:40:01,640
Speaker 1: we use you, we'll have a little something for you.

1500
01:40:02,000 --> 01:40:04,160
Speaker 1: So t HC at the media dot com. Th h

1501
01:40:04,240 --> 01:40:06,680
Speaker 1: C at the mediator dot com. If you want to

1502
01:40:06,720 --> 01:40:10,679
Speaker 1: ask Dr vlarious guys a question for episode Numero UNO

1503
01:40:10,800 --> 01:40:14,880
Speaker 1: of the th HC Book Club next week, thanks for

1504
01:40:14,880 --> 01:40:18,439
Speaker 1: another great episode. We will see you next week. Dr

1505
01:40:18,560 --> 01:40:21,360
Speaker 1: vlarious guys, bring your questions. It's gonna be a good time.

1506
01:40:22,040 --> 01:40:25,880
Speaker 1: Say bye film by bye, you know, because I can't

1507
01:40:25,920 --> 01:40:28,040
Speaker 1: go a week without doing roun