WEBVTT - From the Vault: Send an Owl/Raven/Pigeon! 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:07.600 Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:11.200 name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And it's Saturday. 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:13.440 Time for a vault episode. Deep in the Vault, I 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:16.279 hear the fluttering of wings. Yeah, that's right, this is 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:20.680 our episode Send an owl slash raven slash pigeon. Uh. 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:25.239 This episode basically explores the actual use of pigeons to 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:28.400 to relay messages from one point to another, but then 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:33.000 also exploring the use of ravens and owls in our 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:36.560 various fictions, namely, um, The Song of Ice and Fire 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:41.080 by George R. Martin and J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter series. Uh. 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:43.720 To what extent do these make sense? Could an owl 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:46.519 actually deliver a message? How smart is it? Now? How 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:49.400 capable of being trained is a now? And likewise, what's 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.960 the situation with the raven? Uh? This is what These 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:55.760 are the questions that this episode attempts to answer. We 0:00:55.880 --> 0:01:01.200 hope you enjoy Welcome Stuff to Blow your Mind, a 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:10.200 production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:12.000 welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:14.760 Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. You know Joe and 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:18.319 my household. We're slap dab in the middle of Harry 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.760 Potter manio. Yeah, you've been telling me all about it, dude. Yeah. Yeah. 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:24.360 We're reading our seven year old the books, we're making 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:26.840 our way through the movies, and my son applies just 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:29.679 an amazing level of focus and determination to all these 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:32.039 Harry Potter Lego kits. Oh now, you gotta tell me 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:36.040 about those, because I love Legos and I am hoping 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.320 someday in my life to be able to play with 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:42.040 Legos again. Oh well, yeah, the Lego kits are pretty great. 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:46.240 They're not a sponsor, but I'm just saying there there 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:49.720 are a lot of fun The Hogwarts especially is quite 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:52.680 quite a kit. Uh. But you know, he also has 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:55.760 a stuffed owl, which he has, of course named Hedwig 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:59.080 after Harry potter Is owl. And at the same time 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:01.800 when he goes to bed, my wife and I are 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:04.800 currently enjoying the final season of Game of Thrones, as 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:08.120 am I and my wife. Yeah, I see your current 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:10.320 Oh yeah, we're cooked. Yeah, there won't be any spoilers 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:12.160 in this episode, but but I'm glad that we're on 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:15.119 the same wavelength. And uh, you know, and one day 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.480 I think I'm I'm looking forward to actually finishing reading 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:21.040 the books as well once they are all written. Oh yeah, 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:22.959 so are you actually caught up to where the books 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:24.799 are in the Song of Ice and Fire series? Am? 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:29.200 I'm caught up and eagerly awaiting the subsequent volume. Me too, 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:31.160 I've read them all and now it's been so long 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:32.800 I'm gonna have to go back and read them again 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:34.480 before the next one. Kind of I'm gonna have to 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:39.840 hit the Wikipedia entries. So in the Wizarding World of 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.600 the J. K. Rowland created the Magical Community, they use 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:47.560 owls to send messages back and forth, and its sides beautiful, 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:50.040 and it's a subtly magical part of the book, right, 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:54.040 playing on their traditional ideas of witches and wizards having familiars, 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:56.680 as well as the very properties of owls that make 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:01.000 them seem mystical right there, silence, they're nocturnal habits, their 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:06.480 wise appearance. Uh. But in reality, as we'll discuss, no 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:09.800 one actually uses an owl to send messages in the 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:12.640 real world. But the more general idea of using birds 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:15.240 to send messages is not so magical and not so 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:17.359 far fetched. I guess that's what we're gonna be talking 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:20.880 about today. Yeah, and likewise George R. Martin's Song of 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:24.320 Ice and Fire books, uh, and the HBO TV v 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:27.560 TV adaptation Game of Thrones. Now, folks, if we call 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:30.960 the books Game of Thrones today, don't get on our case. Right, 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:32.799 It's just it's the same thing. It's just what we've 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.680 been programmed to do at this point. But in both properties, 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:39.040 ravens are the bird of choice for members of the 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:43.360 Citadel to relay messages to and from various castles, cities, 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:47.400 and important locations. Yeah, they're the email of wester Ros. Yeah, 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:49.640 and uh, you know it's it's described in the books 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:54.040 that these clever messengers usually only function like real world 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:57.200 messager pigeons. Right. They that that the summer smarter and 0:03:57.280 --> 0:03:59.760 capable of traveling to multiple locations. But for the most part, 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.240 you're sending a message from one place to another, right, Yeah, 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:06.080 that's right actually to without any spoilers to extremely comic 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:09.320 effects sometimes in the TV show, especially where like it 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:11.600 seems like somebody will write a message, put it on 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.400 a raven, send it off and they get results within 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:16.240 like a day when it was supposed to travel a 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:19.560 thousand miles. I'm not quite sure exactly how that happens. Yeah, 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:21.360 things have to move a lot a lot faster in 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:23.400 the TV series, right. I think this has led to 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.280 a lot of memes where like ravens have jet packs 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.400 on this well, and then they also have I believe 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:33.040 there's an additional separate species, a white raven, that that 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:37.320 used by the Citadel for particularly important messages. I don't 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:39.040 recall that, but there's a lot of detail in the 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:40.880 books that didn't even stick. I think I've had a 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:42.840 lot of a lot of time with Game of Thrones 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:47.599 to to forget many different details myself. But you know, 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:49.400 I think all this works nicely in the books in 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:53.560 the TV series because it puts an alternative of universe 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:56.400 kind of spin on everything, right, Like in your world 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.280 it's a pigeon, but in in uh in wester Roast 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:02.760 it is it is a raven. And then uh, you know, 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:04.960 it's kind of like some of the other spins that 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:10.080 they do, like like having this predominantly polytheistic version of 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:14.640 medieval Western culture. Uh So this alternate of you know, 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:17.800 vision of how bloodlines and genetics work. Though I do 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:20.039 think they're interesting. Not to turn this into it just 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:22.800 a game of Thrones episode. There's some interesting parallels between 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:25.880 the religions in the Game of Thrones world and uh, 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.200 and the religions of Western Europe. Like, so you originally 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.760 have these pagan, polytheistic religions. But I know, George R. 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:35.279 Martin has commented that the Faith of the Seven in 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:37.920 the books and the TV show is really an analogy 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:40.600 for the Catholic Church even because it has you know, 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.440 even it is considers itself a monotheistic religion, It has 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:48.159 a trinity, it has many saints and other figures. And 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:49.839 and he just said, well, I just went ahead and 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:53.520 made them all gods. Yeah, he he had. He did 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.840 a great job of taking things that were familiar and 0:05:56.880 --> 0:05:58.800 tweaking them just a little bit to where they still 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:01.680 felt familiar. Like you did have to, you know, take 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:05.320 a running start at understanding the religious world of Game 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:07.279 of Thrones, but it was a little bit different, just 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:09.680 just just a little bit skewed in a way that 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:13.359 made it to uh, you know, resonate a little more. Yeah, 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:16.440 and uh. And likewise, the Ravens fit perfectly in this, 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:19.640 you know, this grim dark setting because the raven, of course, 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:23.400 is a bird that's associated with with darkness. And carnage, 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.560 and so it makes sense that the characters would be 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:29.200 using this bird to send their messages, as opposed to 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:32.800 the peaceful dove or pigeons pecking bits of flesh from 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.359 dead bodies on the battlefield. That's how the raven is 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:38.760 often imagined. But the way the ravens are used in 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:41.640 the book, as we've already alluded to, is actually very 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:47.160 analogous to real life uses of messenger pigeons. That's right, 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:52.600 messenger pigeons, carrier pigeons. Uh. This is an actual method 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:55.400 that that we use and have used for thousands of 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:59.680 years to deliver messages across long distances, um and and 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:02.640 it's it's not really it's not like a magically trained pet. 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:06.120 It's more of an animal that will dependently dependently return 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:08.720 home after you transport it somewhere else and then let 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:11.880 it free, which is a much less impressive trick, though 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:15.600 still impressive. Yes, I mean, it would be pretty amazing 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:17.720 if you could just like send one to another city 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:20.160 on command and then it would come back, right. It's 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:22.400 like imagine doing it with say a guerrilla from the 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:24.880 local zoo, where like I want to send a message 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:27.920 to the zoo where this guerrilla lives. Okay, well, I'm 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:30.440 gonna take one of its guerrillas with me when I 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:33.560 visit another city. You know, that will give the guerrilla 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:35.960 the message let the guerrilla loose, and the guerrilla will 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:39.080 of course return home, thus delivering the message. So I 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:40.720 guess that's where you get the idea. You may have 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:44.559 heard the phrase of homing pigeon. Yes, it is returning home. 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.200 So here we are. We're talking about pigeons, we're talking 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.600 about owls, and we're talking about ravens. We figured we 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:54.760 we know that homing pigeons. This has been a subject 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.960 that that numerous podcasts have covered. I know, Josh and 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:01.240 Chuck covered homing pigeon a while back on their show. 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:03.560 Oh that doesn't surprise me. Yeah, and uh, and so 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:06.120 we we wanted to to to discuss them, but we 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:08.160 figured this might spice it up a bit, to also 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:12.520 discuss them in relation to the owls and the ravens 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:15.680 of the world of Harry Potter and the world of 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:17.720 wester Ros. And in doing so, we'll be able to 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:21.920 highlight why the pigeon has worked so well for these 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:25.320 purposes and why we use the pigeon, and likewise why 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.200 we don't actually use ravens and owls. What is it 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:31.600 about ravens and owls that that would make them ideal 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.120 for this sort of work? And then also what you 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:36.520 know prevents us from using them for this sort of 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:39.920 work to begin with? Well, I say, let's go pigeon first. Yeah, 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:42.480 let's go, so let's hit reality and then we'll dip 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:45.400 our toes into the fantasy a bit. So, first of all, 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:47.120 let's let's consider some of the you know, the the 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:51.160 epic facts UH from the history of homing pigeons that 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.400 I think UH should ground their use in a real 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:58.600 world that feels as epic as anything from wester Ros uh. So, So, 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:02.439 first of all, it seems that pigeons were originally domesticated 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:05.079 for food UH in the Middle East and in Europe, 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:07.760 much in the same way that the jungle foul that 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:11.079 we now call it chicken was originally domesticated in India 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.840 and East Asia. So they were domesticated for their meat, 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.800 for their eggs, which a pigeon has tiny eggs, but 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.040 you can't eat them. The pigeon, UH is maybe not 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:26.400 as robust as a modern uh, you know, hormonally enhanced chicken, 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:29.760 but it's still is edible. I mean again, if you've 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:32.160 read the song Advice and firebooks, one of the common 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:35.360 menu items at feasts and stuff is roast squab or 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:39.400 stuffed squab. Of course squab would be like a young pigeon. Yeah, 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:42.320 and you can still find squab on on menus in 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:46.160 various places. Now, when we're talking about homing pigeons, the 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:51.400 homing pigeon is technically Columba Olivia domestica. That's the domestic 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:55.760 version of the rock pigeon, which is just Columbo Olivia. Now, 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:58.320 one interesting fact about the common pigeon, the rock pigeon, 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:03.040 also known as the a dove, in their natural habitats, 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:05.800 their cliff dwellers, they tend to live and nest on 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.679 cliff faces and rock ledges, which probably at least partially 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:13.480 explains why they thrive so well in modern urban landscapes 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:18.000 full of buildings that function as artificial cliff faces. And 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:20.800 I think we talked about this some with with our 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:22.839 guest Jason Ward, who came on the show. Wants to 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:26.520 talk about urban evolution, especially of birds. Absolutely a highly 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:31.319 successful species, but back before their success was so guaranteed, Yeah, 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:35.040 they were this this wonderful edible bird that you could 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:38.280 stuff in cages pretty easily. And as you might imagine, 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:41.440 people were you know, kept their birds, and they doing 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:44.680 so prohibited from flying away. And as they traveled around 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:47.520 with these birds, and then I'm assuming they probably discovered 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:50.520 the curious, independable way that these birds could then return 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:56.240 to their home nest across increasingly long distances. And as such, 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:01.240 we have been using bird, these pigeons for thousands of 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:04.520 years to deliver messages. Uh, it is you know, it 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:08.400 is a is a pretty ancient practice, but it appears 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:12.280 to emerge out of this original domestication for food. First 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:14.319 to eat them and then you put them to work, right, 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:17.680 which which you know that it sounds rather this is 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.319 ultimately we're talking about very mundane use of the bird. Right, 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:22.120 We're going to use it for eating, and we're gonna 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:25.280 use it for delivering messages. But it's also worth noting 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:29.559 that pigeons have sacred significance in many cultures, though we 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:32.760 often refer to them in doves in that in these instances, 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:35.560 at least in the English language, right, the pigeon and dove, 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:37.240 this is the same thing. Yeah, I mean, we're talking 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.200 about the about birds from the family Columbidae, which is 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:43.360 doves and pigeons. Um. But you know, we can think 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:46.640 to the roles of say, doves and Christian symbolism. Uh. 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.520 And even as it's kind of a secular symbol of peace, right, 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:54.360 releasing doves um. Uh, you know, to is you know, 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:59.120 a symbolic act. Right. Likewise, we can go all the 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.640 way back to ancient Sumerian Mesopotamia where we see the 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:06.080 use of the dove as an associated animal of the 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:09.600 goddess in Anna. Ah. We love Ananna on this show. 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:13.680 But that's interesting because Anana has multiple valences. Anana can be, 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:16.240 of course, like a fierce goddess of war who screams 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:19.400 death through the rebel lands, or she can be, you know, 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.480 like a peaceful goddess of fertility. She has kind of 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.960 both meanings in different contexts. And I wonder which which 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.240 way the dove comes in there? Is it like the 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:30.440 way we associate doves with peace or is it the 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:33.160 way that doves can be used to send messages and 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.040 gather intelligence during war? Yeah? I mean as it just 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:40.240 as a means of conveying information. It can serve both ends, right, 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:42.840 But it doesn't really seem like this. You know, this 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.920 prior relationship of domestication with the pitch and is ultimately 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.800 what sets it up for use. Is the carrier bird 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:52.520 um or earlier people domesticated them, live with them and 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.240 picked up on their abilities, and really the only other 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:58.160 bird they think, Think to the other birds that have 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.480 a legacy of domestication, and uh and and in each 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:03.960 one we can try to imagine to what extent they 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:06.200 could have actually been used to carry messages. I mean, 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:10.600 you have the chicken, it's not gonna work. The duck, 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:16.520 the goose, that's the carrier chicken. Yeah, the messenger chicken. 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.720 That would be like a good cartoon. Well, okay, so 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.760 the chickens out the duck and the goose. I couldn't 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:25.080 find any real discussions of this, but I mean, they 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:31.240 are migratory birds, so it's it's it sounds possible. But 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:34.160 are they Are they ever domesticated? I don't know. I 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:37.560 guess they are sometimes. Well, yeah, I've seen them listed 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:41.319 as as birds that we have domesticated in some cases, 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:46.360 likewise the goose, the guinea fowl, the turkey, canaries, and finches. 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:49.439 But but of these, the domestication of the chicken, the duck, 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:51.560 the goose, and the turkey. Those go back thousands of years, 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:53.559 but canaries only go back to the fifteenth century, and 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:58.199 the finch to the eighteenth century. But you know, to 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:02.160 put ourselves back in in sent shoes on this right 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:05.920 as as one presumably you know, picks up on the 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.960 ability of the of the pigeon to carry messages. Just 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:13.319 think of the advantage, uh, in a world where message 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:17.040 delivery is only as fast as a human or a 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:22.080 horse and rider can can travel across either open terrain 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:25.520 or more likely a series of winding paths or roads. Yeah. 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:27.520 I mean, we take for granted now that we have 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:32.360 wired or wireless communication that can send information electronically or whatever. 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.680 I mean. Back then, of message had to be physically 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:37.720 taken one way or another. Either you tell it to 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.280 a person and they go deliver it in person, or 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:42.520 it had to be carried by hand. Yeah, you had 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:44.480 to have a runner carrying it or carrying it to 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:47.640 the next runner. Um. Oh and then yeah, yeah, if 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.200 you're going from point A to point B, you're probably 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:52.720 not able to go in a straight line. But the 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.240 bird can. The bird can fly, you know, literally as 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:57.880 the as the crow flies. Yeah, the bird also has 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:00.360 the advantage that this is seen sometimes in the Song 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:04.360 of Fire series, where say, if your castle is under 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:07.920 siege and no person, no human messenger would likely get 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:11.440 by without being captured, a bird probably could get by. Yeah, 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.160 the bird can leave a besieged city and go relay 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:16.880 a message. Um, you know, they might try and and 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.200 shoot it out of the sky with a with an arrow. 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:23.160 But that's why you have multiple pigeons, I imagine, or 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:27.320 multiple owls or ravens in your fantasy set of treatments. 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:30.960 Birds can also carry messages quickly over water, that's right. 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:34.840 Humans can't or I guess maybe could by boat. But yeah, 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:36.880 it's it's easy to just to sort of focus on 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:39.120 the sort of the primitive nature of tying a message 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:42.440 to an animal with and and and just forget the 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:47.400 tremendous freedom of movement that a bird like a pigeon has, uh. 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:50.440 And then in terms of speed with a pigeon, we're 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.040 talking speeds of of like fifty to sixty miles per 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:56.200 hour and up to record speeds. And I think this 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:58.680 is you know, when you're really pushing, when you're racing them, 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.000 you can get into the low nineties. Horses on the 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:05.000 other hand, Uh, you're only going to reach at the 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.640 mid fifties. And that's going at full gallup. And that's 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:10.680 like a world record for horse. Yeah, that's like a 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:14.280 common that's like really going. And uh and again, the 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:16.520 chances of you being able to send a message by 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:21.120 horse at top speed, at record speed in a straight line, 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:25.000 like on this magical highway that you've built between Fortress 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:27.800 A and Fortress B, it's just not It doesn't stack 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:31.080 up against the power, the the the message delivering power 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:33.160 of the pigeon. So to give everybody you know, some 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:35.680 more ideas about it, just that the history the legacy 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:39.120 of of carrier pigeon use. I was looking at the 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:42.680 Hallowed History of the Carrier Pigeon by Mary Bloom from 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:47.160 the New York Times two thousand four, and so some 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:49.640 of the high points of the author mentioned here, and 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:53.320 I believe this was uncovering a museum exhibit about the 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:57.400 carrier pigeon. But we have, like an addition to mythical 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:01.160 uh stories of in Anna and her association with the 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:04.120 with the pigeon or dove, you also have biblical accounts 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:08.040 such as uh Noah releasing doves or pigeons. Yeah, it 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:10.879 was to test whether the floodwaters of the Great Flood 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:13.680 had abated. I think it's in Genesis chapter eight where 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:18.400 uh Noah releases multiple doves or either the same dub 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:21.200 multiple times or multiple doves to go out and see 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:24.000 if it can land somewhere. At first, it goes out 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.000 and it can't find anywhere to land, and it comes 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:27.679 back to him. The second time it goes out and 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.359 it brings back a branch, and that means the waters 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:32.359 must have receded from somewhere. In the third time it 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:36.240 goes out, it just stays gone and never returns. So 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:40.439 if you love a dove, set it free. So the 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:44.040 ancient Romans used pigeons for chariot races to tell owners 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:48.439 how their entries had placed. Genghis Khan established pigeon relay 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:52.240 points across Asia and much of eastern Europe. Charlemagne made 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:56.600 pigeon raising the exclusive privilege of nobility. Pigeons were used 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.560 for military communication well into World War One, when the 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:03.920 Germans rolled out carrier carrier pigeons with cameras that were 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:07.560 soon replaced by reconnaissance planes by the end of the 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:10.840 Under the war France had mobilized thirty thousand pigeons, and 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.760 they had declared that anyone impeding their flight could be 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:16.400 sentenced to death. There's actually a famous story from World 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:19.320 War One, I believe about a group of Allied soldiers 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.920 who had come under friendly fire from artillery and only 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.879 managed to communicate to their allies that you know, like 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:28.439 stopped shelling us by accident by the use of a 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.760 carrier pigeons, I'll saved many lives. Pigeons have been used 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:35.560 to transport blood samples from remote regions regions of Britain 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:39.600 and France. In eastern India, they were used for communication 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:43.080 between remote police out outposts, and as of at least 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:46.679 last year, at least one of these uh lines was 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:51.160 still in use. The US has used pigeons to spot shipwrecks. 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:56.200 Drug drug traffickers have used pigeons seemingly around the world. 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:58.879 I was looking up various stories about this, and you know, 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:01.719 I was finding hits for um, North, South and Central 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.040 America as well as in the Middle East. You know, 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:07.560 obviously you're not going to send like an entire brick 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.280 of hashish up into the at a pigeon, but if 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:12.359 you want to send a small amount of something like 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:15.400 across the border or police area. Yeah, like you take 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.520 a pigeon from its home, attached the drugs to it, 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.080 and then let it fly home. And that's exactly what 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:24.680 some people have done. Uh. This is a fun account 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:27.280 that my wife shared with me. She was remembering a 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:31.879 West Virginia whitewater rafting place from sort of like the 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:36.480 predigital photo age, and they used pigeons. So what they 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:38.680 did is, um, you know, you're going on this whitewater 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:42.840 rafting ride, right and uh uh nowadays we just take 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:44.639 this for granted. Right, You ride some sort of a 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:46.639 ride like a roller coaster, and at the end they 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:50.080 sell you a picture of yourself enjoying the ride, and 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:52.400 of course now we do it was just digital photography, 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:55.000 but this particular White Water rapid place, the way they 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.080 did it is they had a photographer with a long 0:19:58.160 --> 0:19:59.879 lens up on a hillside where they could get a 0:19:59.880 --> 0:20:02.840 good shot of the river. Uh. They would snap your 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.160 picture as you were going down the river, and then 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:07.040 they would take the film. They would attach you to 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:09.879 the homing pigeon, send the pigeon like to the end 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:12.719 of the river where the pickup is. They would develop 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:15.639 the film and then they would sell you the picture, 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:17.960 because you know this is a course of that's when 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:20.040 you want to sell the picture, right, you're just getting 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:23.199 off the rafting rides, are excited like, oh that was awesome. 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:25.480 I didn't die, it was great, and then there's the 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:28.280 picture ready to go like magic, and you pay for it. Now, 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:32.280 that probably wasn't even possible until like sellularly to acetate film. Right, 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:35.120 try to attach it to garat type plate to your pigeons. 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:38.440 Work to understand that joke. Make sure you listen to 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:42.879 our series of episodes on our other podcast, Invention, about 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:45.800 the invention of photography. Those have been a lot of fun. 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:48.320 If you're not listening to Invention yet, what are you doing? 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.000 Go listen? Yeah, and you can check out the website 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:54.280 at invention pod dot com. Okay, I got one for you. 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:58.960 You ever wonder about the origin of the term pigeonhole. Oh, 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:00.880 I'd never thought about it, but now I am. Yeah, 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.199 pigeonhole as a verb, right, like I don't want to 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:06.480 be pigeonholed as just another whatever. I don't know exactly 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:09.080 how I guess it means, like, uh, it's sort of 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.159 like the the idea of being type cast, right, I 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:13.960 don't want to be pinned down in this kind of 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:17.640 narrowly defined space. Well, apparently this expression has a very 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:22.359 literal origin in the domestic pigeon raising trade. It comes 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:25.399 from when pigeons used to be given like individual holes 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:29.119