1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And it's Saturday. 3 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: Time for a vault episode. Deep in the Vault, I 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,279 Speaker 1: hear the fluttering of wings. Yeah, that's right, this is 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: our episode Send an owl slash raven slash pigeon. Uh. 6 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: This episode basically explores the actual use of pigeons to 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: to relay messages from one point to another, but then 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: also exploring the use of ravens and owls in our 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: various fictions, namely, um, The Song of Ice and Fire 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: by George R. Martin and J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter series. Uh. 11 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: To what extent do these make sense? Could an owl 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: actually deliver a message? How smart is it? Now? How 13 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: capable of being trained is a now? And likewise, what's 14 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: the situation with the raven? Uh? This is what These 15 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: are the questions that this episode attempts to answer. We 16 00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: hope you enjoy Welcome Stuff to Blow your Mind, a 17 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you 18 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is 19 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. You know Joe and 20 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: my household. We're slap dab in the middle of Harry 21 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: Potter manio. Yeah, you've been telling me all about it, dude. Yeah. Yeah. 22 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: We're reading our seven year old the books, we're making 23 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: our way through the movies, and my son applies just 24 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: an amazing level of focus and determination to all these 25 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: Harry Potter Lego kits. Oh now, you gotta tell me 26 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 1: about those, because I love Legos and I am hoping 27 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: someday in my life to be able to play with 28 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: Legos again. Oh well, yeah, the Lego kits are pretty great. 29 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: They're not a sponsor, but I'm just saying there there 30 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: are a lot of fun The Hogwarts especially is quite 31 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: quite a kit. Uh. But you know, he also has 32 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: a stuffed owl, which he has, of course named Hedwig 33 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: after Harry potter Is owl. And at the same time 34 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: when he goes to bed, my wife and I are 35 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: currently enjoying the final season of Game of Thrones, as 36 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: am I and my wife. Yeah, I see your current 37 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we're cooked. Yeah, there won't be any spoilers 38 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: in this episode, but but I'm glad that we're on 39 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,119 Speaker 1: the same wavelength. And uh, you know, and one day 40 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: I think I'm I'm looking forward to actually finishing reading 41 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: the books as well once they are all written. Oh yeah, 42 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 1: so are you actually caught up to where the books 43 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 1: are in the Song of Ice and Fire series? Am? 44 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: I'm caught up and eagerly awaiting the subsequent volume. Me too, 45 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: I've read them all and now it's been so long 46 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to go back and read them again 47 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: before the next one. Kind of I'm gonna have to 48 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: hit the Wikipedia entries. So in the Wizarding World of 49 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: the J. K. Rowland created the Magical Community, they use 50 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: owls to send messages back and forth, and its sides beautiful, 51 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: and it's a subtly magical part of the book, right, 52 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: playing on their traditional ideas of witches and wizards having familiars, 53 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: as well as the very properties of owls that make 54 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: them seem mystical right there, silence, they're nocturnal habits, their 55 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: wise appearance. Uh. But in reality, as we'll discuss, no 56 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: one actually uses an owl to send messages in the 57 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: real world. But the more general idea of using birds 58 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: to send messages is not so magical and not so 59 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: far fetched. I guess that's what we're gonna be talking 60 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: about today. Yeah, and likewise George R. Martin's Song of 61 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: Ice and Fire books, uh, and the HBO TV v 62 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: TV adaptation Game of Thrones. Now, folks, if we call 63 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: the books Game of Thrones today, don't get on our case. Right, 64 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 1: It's just it's the same thing. It's just what we've 65 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: been programmed to do at this point. But in both properties, 66 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: ravens are the bird of choice for members of the 67 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: Citadel to relay messages to and from various castles, cities, 68 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: and important locations. Yeah, they're the email of wester Ros. Yeah, 69 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: and uh, you know it's it's described in the books 70 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: that these clever messengers usually only function like real world 71 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: messager pigeons. Right. They that that the summer smarter and 72 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: capable of traveling to multiple locations. But for the most part, 73 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: you're sending a message from one place to another, right, Yeah, 74 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: that's right actually to without any spoilers to extremely comic 75 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: effects sometimes in the TV show, especially where like it 76 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: seems like somebody will write a message, put it on 77 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: a raven, send it off and they get results within 78 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: like a day when it was supposed to travel a 79 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: thousand miles. I'm not quite sure exactly how that happens. Yeah, 80 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: things have to move a lot a lot faster in 81 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: the TV series, right. I think this has led to 82 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: a lot of memes where like ravens have jet packs 83 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: on this well, and then they also have I believe 84 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: there's an additional separate species, a white raven, that that 85 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: used by the Citadel for particularly important messages. I don't 86 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: recall that, but there's a lot of detail in the 87 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: books that didn't even stick. I think I've had a 88 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of time with Game of Thrones 89 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: to to forget many different details myself. But you know, 90 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: I think all this works nicely in the books in 91 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: the TV series because it puts an alternative of universe 92 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: kind of spin on everything, right, Like in your world 93 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: it's a pigeon, but in in uh in wester Roast 94 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: it is it is a raven. And then uh, you know, 95 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: it's kind of like some of the other spins that 96 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: they do, like like having this predominantly polytheistic version of 97 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: medieval Western culture. Uh So this alternate of you know, 98 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: vision of how bloodlines and genetics work. Though I do 99 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 1: think they're interesting. Not to turn this into it just 100 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: a game of Thrones episode. There's some interesting parallels between 101 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: the religions in the Game of Thrones world and uh, 102 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: and the religions of Western Europe. Like, so you originally 103 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: have these pagan, polytheistic religions. But I know, George R. 104 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: Martin has commented that the Faith of the Seven in 105 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: the books and the TV show is really an analogy 106 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: for the Catholic Church even because it has you know, 107 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: even it is considers itself a monotheistic religion, It has 108 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: a trinity, it has many saints and other figures. And 109 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: and he just said, well, I just went ahead and 110 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: made them all gods. Yeah, he he had. He did 111 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: a great job of taking things that were familiar and 112 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: tweaking them just a little bit to where they still 113 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: felt familiar. Like you did have to, you know, take 114 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: a running start at understanding the religious world of Game 115 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: of Thrones, but it was a little bit different, just 116 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: just just a little bit skewed in a way that 117 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 1: made it to uh, you know, resonate a little more. Yeah, 118 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: and uh. And likewise, the Ravens fit perfectly in this, 119 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: you know, this grim dark setting because the raven, of course, 120 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: is a bird that's associated with with darkness. And carnage, 121 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: and so it makes sense that the characters would be 122 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: using this bird to send their messages, as opposed to 123 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: the peaceful dove or pigeons pecking bits of flesh from 124 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 1: dead bodies on the battlefield. That's how the raven is 125 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: often imagined. But the way the ravens are used in 126 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: the book, as we've already alluded to, is actually very 127 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: analogous to real life uses of messenger pigeons. That's right, 128 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: messenger pigeons, carrier pigeons. Uh. This is an actual method 129 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: that that we use and have used for thousands of 130 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: years to deliver messages across long distances, um and and 131 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: it's it's not really it's not like a magically trained pet. 132 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: It's more of an animal that will dependently dependently return 133 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: home after you transport it somewhere else and then let 134 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: it free, which is a much less impressive trick, though 135 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: still impressive. Yes, I mean, it would be pretty amazing 136 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: if you could just like send one to another city 137 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: on command and then it would come back, right. It's 138 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: like imagine doing it with say a guerrilla from the 139 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: local zoo, where like I want to send a message 140 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: to the zoo where this guerrilla lives. Okay, well, I'm 141 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: gonna take one of its guerrillas with me when I 142 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: visit another city. You know, that will give the guerrilla 143 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: the message let the guerrilla loose, and the guerrilla will 144 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: of course return home, thus delivering the message. So I 145 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: guess that's where you get the idea. You may have 146 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,559 Speaker 1: heard the phrase of homing pigeon. Yes, it is returning home. 147 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: So here we are. We're talking about pigeons, we're talking 148 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: about owls, and we're talking about ravens. We figured we 149 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: we know that homing pigeons. This has been a subject 150 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: that that numerous podcasts have covered. I know, Josh and 151 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: Chuck covered homing pigeon a while back on their show. 152 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: Oh that doesn't surprise me. Yeah, and uh, and so 153 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: we we wanted to to to discuss them, but we 154 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: figured this might spice it up a bit, to also 155 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: discuss them in relation to the owls and the ravens 156 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: of the world of Harry Potter and the world of 157 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: wester Ros. And in doing so, we'll be able to 158 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: highlight why the pigeon has worked so well for these 159 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: purposes and why we use the pigeon, and likewise why 160 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: we don't actually use ravens and owls. What is it 161 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: about ravens and owls that that would make them ideal 162 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: for this sort of work? And then also what you 163 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: know prevents us from using them for this sort of 164 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: work to begin with? Well, I say, let's go pigeon first. Yeah, 165 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: let's go, so let's hit reality and then we'll dip 166 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: our toes into the fantasy a bit. So, first of all, 167 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: let's let's consider some of the you know, the the 168 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: epic facts UH from the history of homing pigeons that 169 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: I think UH should ground their use in a real 170 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: world that feels as epic as anything from wester Ros uh. So, So, 171 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 1: first of all, it seems that pigeons were originally domesticated 172 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 1: for food UH in the Middle East and in Europe, 173 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: much in the same way that the jungle foul that 174 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,079 Speaker 1: we now call it chicken was originally domesticated in India 175 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: and East Asia. So they were domesticated for their meat, 176 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: for their eggs, which a pigeon has tiny eggs, but 177 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: you can't eat them. The pigeon, UH is maybe not 178 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: as robust as a modern uh, you know, hormonally enhanced chicken, 179 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: but it's still is edible. I mean again, if you've 180 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: read the song Advice and firebooks, one of the common 181 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: menu items at feasts and stuff is roast squab or 182 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: stuffed squab. Of course squab would be like a young pigeon. Yeah, 183 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: and you can still find squab on on menus in 184 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: various places. Now, when we're talking about homing pigeons, the 185 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: homing pigeon is technically Columba Olivia domestica. That's the domestic 186 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: version of the rock pigeon, which is just Columbo Olivia. Now, 187 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: one interesting fact about the common pigeon, the rock pigeon, 188 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: also known as the a dove, in their natural habitats, 189 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: their cliff dwellers, they tend to live and nest on 190 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 1: cliff faces and rock ledges, which probably at least partially 191 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: explains why they thrive so well in modern urban landscapes 192 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: full of buildings that function as artificial cliff faces. And 193 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: I think we talked about this some with with our 194 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 1: guest Jason Ward, who came on the show. Wants to 195 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: talk about urban evolution, especially of birds. Absolutely a highly 196 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 1: successful species, but back before their success was so guaranteed, Yeah, 197 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: they were this this wonderful edible bird that you could 198 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: stuff in cages pretty easily. And as you might imagine, 199 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: people were you know, kept their birds, and they doing 200 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 1: so prohibited from flying away. And as they traveled around 201 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: with these birds, and then I'm assuming they probably discovered 202 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: the curious, independable way that these birds could then return 203 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: to their home nest across increasingly long distances. And as such, 204 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: we have been using bird, these pigeons for thousands of 205 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: years to deliver messages. Uh, it is you know, it 206 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: is a is a pretty ancient practice, but it appears 207 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: to emerge out of this original domestication for food. First 208 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 1: to eat them and then you put them to work, right, 209 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 1: which which you know that it sounds rather this is 210 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 1: ultimately we're talking about very mundane use of the bird. Right, 211 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: We're going to use it for eating, and we're gonna 212 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: use it for delivering messages. But it's also worth noting 213 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,559 Speaker 1: that pigeons have sacred significance in many cultures, though we 214 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: often refer to them in doves in that in these instances, 215 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: at least in the English language, right, the pigeon and dove, 216 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: this is the same thing. Yeah, I mean, we're talking 217 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: about the about birds from the family Columbidae, which is 218 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: doves and pigeons. Um. But you know, we can think 219 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: to the roles of say, doves and Christian symbolism. Uh. 220 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: And even as it's kind of a secular symbol of peace, right, 221 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: releasing doves um. Uh, you know, to is you know, 222 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: a symbolic act. Right. Likewise, we can go all the 223 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: way back to ancient Sumerian Mesopotamia where we see the 224 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 1: use of the dove as an associated animal of the 225 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: goddess in Anna. Ah. We love Ananna on this show. 226 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: But that's interesting because Anana has multiple valences. Anana can be, 227 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: of course, like a fierce goddess of war who screams 228 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: death through the rebel lands, or she can be, you know, 229 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: like a peaceful goddess of fertility. She has kind of 230 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: both meanings in different contexts. And I wonder which which 231 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: way the dove comes in there? Is it like the 232 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: way we associate doves with peace or is it the 233 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: way that doves can be used to send messages and 234 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: gather intelligence during war? Yeah? I mean as it just 235 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: as a means of conveying information. It can serve both ends, right, 236 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: But it doesn't really seem like this. You know, this 237 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: prior relationship of domestication with the pitch and is ultimately 238 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: what sets it up for use. Is the carrier bird 239 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: um or earlier people domesticated them, live with them and 240 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: picked up on their abilities, and really the only other 241 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: bird they think, Think to the other birds that have 242 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: a legacy of domestication, and uh and and in each 243 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: one we can try to imagine to what extent they 244 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 1: could have actually been used to carry messages. I mean, 245 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: you have the chicken, it's not gonna work. The duck, 246 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: the goose, that's the carrier chicken. Yeah, the messenger chicken. 247 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: That would be like a good cartoon. Well, okay, so 248 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: the chickens out the duck and the goose. I couldn't 249 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: find any real discussions of this, but I mean, they 250 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: are migratory birds, so it's it's it sounds possible. But 251 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: are they Are they ever domesticated? I don't know. I 252 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: guess they are sometimes. Well, yeah, I've seen them listed 253 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 1: as as birds that we have domesticated in some cases, 254 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: likewise the goose, the guinea fowl, the turkey, canaries, and finches. 255 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,439 Speaker 1: But but of these, the domestication of the chicken, the duck, 256 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: the goose, and the turkey. Those go back thousands of years, 257 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 1: but canaries only go back to the fifteenth century, and 258 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 1: the finch to the eighteenth century. But you know, to 259 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: put ourselves back in in sent shoes on this right 260 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: as as one presumably you know, picks up on the 261 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: ability of the of the pigeon to carry messages. Just 262 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 1: think of the advantage, uh, in a world where message 263 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: delivery is only as fast as a human or a 264 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: horse and rider can can travel across either open terrain 265 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: or more likely a series of winding paths or roads. Yeah. 266 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: I mean, we take for granted now that we have 267 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: wired or wireless communication that can send information electronically or whatever. 268 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: I mean. Back then, of message had to be physically 269 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: taken one way or another. Either you tell it to 270 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: a person and they go deliver it in person, or 271 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: it had to be carried by hand. Yeah, you had 272 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: to have a runner carrying it or carrying it to 273 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: the next runner. Um. Oh and then yeah, yeah, if 274 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: you're going from point A to point B, you're probably 275 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: not able to go in a straight line. But the 276 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: bird can. The bird can fly, you know, literally as 277 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: the as the crow flies. Yeah, the bird also has 278 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: the advantage that this is seen sometimes in the Song 279 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: of Fire series, where say, if your castle is under 280 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: siege and no person, no human messenger would likely get 281 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: by without being captured, a bird probably could get by. Yeah, 282 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: the bird can leave a besieged city and go relay 283 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: a message. Um, you know, they might try and and 284 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: shoot it out of the sky with a with an arrow. 285 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: But that's why you have multiple pigeons, I imagine, or 286 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: multiple owls or ravens in your fantasy set of treatments. 287 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: Birds can also carry messages quickly over water, that's right. 288 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: Humans can't or I guess maybe could by boat. But yeah, 289 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: it's it's easy to just to sort of focus on 290 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: the sort of the primitive nature of tying a message 291 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: to an animal with and and and just forget the 292 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: tremendous freedom of movement that a bird like a pigeon has, uh. 293 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: And then in terms of speed with a pigeon, we're 294 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: talking speeds of of like fifty to sixty miles per 295 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: hour and up to record speeds. And I think this 296 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: is you know, when you're really pushing, when you're racing them, 297 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: you can get into the low nineties. Horses on the 298 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: other hand, Uh, you're only going to reach at the 299 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: mid fifties. And that's going at full gallup. And that's 300 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: like a world record for horse. Yeah, that's like a 301 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: common that's like really going. And uh and again, the 302 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: chances of you being able to send a message by 303 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: horse at top speed, at record speed in a straight line, 304 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: like on this magical highway that you've built between Fortress 305 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: A and Fortress B, it's just not It doesn't stack 306 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: up against the power, the the the message delivering power 307 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: of the pigeon. So to give everybody you know, some 308 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: more ideas about it, just that the history the legacy 309 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: of of carrier pigeon use. I was looking at the 310 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: Hallowed History of the Carrier Pigeon by Mary Bloom from 311 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: the New York Times two thousand four, and so some 312 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: of the high points of the author mentioned here, and 313 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: I believe this was uncovering a museum exhibit about the 314 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: carrier pigeon. But we have, like an addition to mythical 315 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: uh stories of in Anna and her association with the 316 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 1: with the pigeon or dove, you also have biblical accounts 317 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: such as uh Noah releasing doves or pigeons. Yeah, it 318 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: was to test whether the floodwaters of the Great Flood 319 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: had abated. I think it's in Genesis chapter eight where 320 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: uh Noah releases multiple doves or either the same dub 321 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: multiple times or multiple doves to go out and see 322 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: if it can land somewhere. At first, it goes out 323 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: and it can't find anywhere to land, and it comes 324 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: back to him. The second time it goes out and 325 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: it brings back a branch, and that means the waters 326 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: must have receded from somewhere. In the third time it 327 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: goes out, it just stays gone and never returns. So 328 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 1: if you love a dove, set it free. So the 329 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: ancient Romans used pigeons for chariot races to tell owners 330 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 1: how their entries had placed. Genghis Khan established pigeon relay 331 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: points across Asia and much of eastern Europe. Charlemagne made 332 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: pigeon raising the exclusive privilege of nobility. Pigeons were used 333 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: for military communication well into World War One, when the 334 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: Germans rolled out carrier carrier pigeons with cameras that were 335 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: soon replaced by reconnaissance planes by the end of the 336 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: Under the war France had mobilized thirty thousand pigeons, and 337 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: they had declared that anyone impeding their flight could be 338 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 1: sentenced to death. There's actually a famous story from World 339 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: War One, I believe about a group of Allied soldiers 340 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 1: who had come under friendly fire from artillery and only 341 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: managed to communicate to their allies that you know, like 342 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 1: stopped shelling us by accident by the use of a 343 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: carrier pigeons, I'll saved many lives. Pigeons have been used 344 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: to transport blood samples from remote regions regions of Britain 345 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: and France. In eastern India, they were used for communication 346 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: between remote police out outposts, and as of at least 347 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 1: last year, at least one of these uh lines was 348 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: still in use. The US has used pigeons to spot shipwrecks. 349 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: Drug drug traffickers have used pigeons seemingly around the world. 350 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: I was looking up various stories about this, and you know, 351 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,719 Speaker 1: I was finding hits for um, North, South and Central 352 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: America as well as in the Middle East. You know, 353 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: obviously you're not going to send like an entire brick 354 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: of hashish up into the at a pigeon, but if 355 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: you want to send a small amount of something like 356 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 1: across the border or police area. Yeah, like you take 357 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: a pigeon from its home, attached the drugs to it, 358 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: and then let it fly home. And that's exactly what 359 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: some people have done. Uh. This is a fun account 360 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: that my wife shared with me. She was remembering a 361 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: West Virginia whitewater rafting place from sort of like the 362 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: predigital photo age, and they used pigeons. So what they 363 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 1: did is, um, you know, you're going on this whitewater 364 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: rafting ride, right and uh uh nowadays we just take 365 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: this for granted. Right, You ride some sort of a 366 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 1: ride like a roller coaster, and at the end they 367 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: sell you a picture of yourself enjoying the ride, and 368 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 1: of course now we do it was just digital photography, 369 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: but this particular White Water rapid place, the way they 370 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: did it is they had a photographer with a long 371 00:19:58,160 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: lens up on a hillside where they could get a 372 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: good shot of the river. Uh. They would snap your 373 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: picture as you were going down the river, and then 374 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: they would take the film. They would attach you to 375 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: the homing pigeon, send the pigeon like to the end 376 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,719 Speaker 1: of the river where the pickup is. They would develop 377 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: the film and then they would sell you the picture, 378 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: because you know this is a course of that's when 379 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: you want to sell the picture, right, you're just getting 380 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: off the rafting rides, are excited like, oh that was awesome. 381 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: I didn't die, it was great, and then there's the 382 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: picture ready to go like magic, and you pay for it. Now, 383 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: that probably wasn't even possible until like sellularly to acetate film. Right, 384 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 1: try to attach it to garat type plate to your pigeons. 385 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: Work to understand that joke. Make sure you listen to 386 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: our series of episodes on our other podcast, Invention, about 387 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: the invention of photography. Those have been a lot of fun. 388 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: If you're not listening to Invention yet, what are you doing? 389 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: Go listen? Yeah, and you can check out the website 390 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: at invention pod dot com. Okay, I got one for you. 391 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: You ever wonder about the origin of the term pigeonhole. Oh, 392 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 1: I'd never thought about it, but now I am. Yeah, 393 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,199 Speaker 1: pigeonhole as a verb, right, like I don't want to 394 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: be pigeonholed as just another whatever. I don't know exactly 395 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: how I guess it means, like, uh, it's sort of 396 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 1: like the the idea of being type cast, right, I 397 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: don't want to be pinned down in this kind of 398 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,640 Speaker 1: narrowly defined space. Well, apparently this expression has a very 399 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: literal origin in the domestic pigeon raising trade. It comes 400 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: from when pigeons used to be given like individual holes 401 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 1: or recesses to nest in. And then after that it 402 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: later came to have another definition of quote one of 403 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: a series of small open compartments, as in a desk, 404 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: cabinet or the like, used for filing or sorting papers. Uh. 405 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: And so that's like a standard definition which I think 406 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 1: morphed further into the more abstract metaphor of having your 407 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: person pigeonholed into a narrow slot. Interesting. Yeah, I'd never 408 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: thought about it before, but that makes perfect sense. And 409 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: that metaphorical definition came about, I think in the eighteen 410 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: sixties and the mid late nineteenth century. Alright, so why 411 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: how do pigeons carry out these impressive feats of speedy delivery? Yeah? 412 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 1: Why them? Why not some other bird? Why not owl? 413 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: Why not owls? Why not ravens? Why not rats? Why 414 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: not the you know, than the neighborhood house cat. And 415 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 1: I think you might be able to answer this question 416 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: two different ways that we could that we can get 417 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: into more as the episode goes on, But one explanation 418 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: might be rooted in the sort of innate tendencies or 419 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 1: abilities of each of these animals, and another answer might 420 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: be more rooted in just accidents of history. Yeah, yeah, 421 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: I think so. Like we already touched on the fact 422 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: that the pigeon was domesticated seemingly originally for food, and 423 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: so that kind of like provided the groundwork for further 424 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: domestic uses of the animal. Yes, but it is certainly 425 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: true that pigeons have some very impressive qualities when it 426 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: comes to navigation and long distance travel. Right, their navigational 427 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 1: abilities are essentially twofold. So first of all, they have 428 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: a compass system and this tells them which direction they're 429 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: headed inn and the sun, the position of the Sun 430 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: and the Earth's magnetic field make this possible. But then 431 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: they also have a map system, which tells them where 432 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: they are in relation to where they want to go now. 433 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: And it's this ability that is a lot more controversial 434 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: that we have sort of competing hypotheses, uh, competing theories 435 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 1: about how they're actually working. So it's not totally settled 436 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: exactly all of the methods that pigeons have to navigate 437 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 1: the way they do and find their way back home. Right, 438 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: there's still there's still research ongoing as to what's going 439 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: on and and complicating all of this is the release 440 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: site bias. This is when birds go off in the 441 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: wrong direction at release, leading investigators to ask, well, what's 442 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: happening in these cases to disrupt their return? What can 443 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: we learn about the functionality by looking at the disruption events? 444 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 1: And so the basic theories for how the mapping system 445 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 1: works are as follows. First, there's the smell theory UH 446 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: so odors carried on the wind allow the pigeons to 447 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: map their way home, and studies have shown that the 448 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 1: atmosphere does contain the necessary olfactory information UH and pigeons 449 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 1: have been observed to get disoriented when their sense of 450 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: smell is impaired or when they don't have access to 451 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 1: natural winds at their home nest. And then there's the 452 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 1: Earth's magnetic field lines so like there is a theory 453 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: that there's some kind of inherent magneto reception in the 454 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 1: birds right as a Cordula Vi Mora and Michael M. 455 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: Walker pointed out in a two thousand nine, studying the 456 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: proceedings of the Royal Society b Biological Sciences. Quote, pigeons 457 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: may derive spatial information from the magnetic field at the 458 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: release site that could be used to estimate their current 459 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: position relative to their loft. Okay, so this sounds like 460 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: it might especially help with like initial orientation towards their 461 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: target destination. Absolutely and again working with that compass system. 462 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: So these two things working together. Now, there is also 463 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: a third theory that I ran across, and this one's 464 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: not as big as the other two, but to just 465 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: get every everyone, you know, an idea of some of 466 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 1: the alternative ideas that are being explored here. Geophysicist John 467 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 1: Hagstrom has this theory that they follow ultra low frequency 468 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: sounds back towards their lofts and that that this is 469 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: why certain areas can confuse them and throw them off. 470 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: He argues that topographic disruptions and ultrasound account for why 471 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: some pigeons are thrown off track in known disruption disruption zones, 472 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: such as in parts of upstate New York. That was 473 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: the region that the UH that Hagstrom was actually looking 474 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 1: at and conducting. You know, some experiments in UH and 475 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: homing pigeons, they can hear sounds as low as point 476 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: zero five her hurts, so so they do have you know, 477 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 1: they do have impressive hearing that that space. Yeah. However, 478 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: it's also been pointed out particularly I was looking at 479 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: a National Geographic article New Theory on how homing pigeons 480 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: find home by Jane J. Lee Uh pointed out that 481 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: the given pigeon my use uh, you know, either the 482 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: smell or the magnetic field uh mapping system. It might 483 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: just depend on where their rays uh, you know, leaning 484 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: on magnetic fields in some cases, smell on the others 485 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: other areas, or perhaps leaning on ultrasound if that is 486 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 1: in fact one of the methods at their disposal. Well, 487 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 1: and that would sort of make sense given what we 488 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: know about our senses that we use for navigation. I mean, 489 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: it would depend on where you were that you were 490 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: trying to find your way to. Right, Like, some places, 491 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: it might be good to listen for traffic or something 492 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 1: if you don't know if you're like trying to get 493 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: back to a trafficked area and an otherwise wilderness like area, 494 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: or it might make more sense to just look with 495 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: your eyes and see what kind of place you're going to. Yeah, 496 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: I mean in all of these cases, I keep trying 497 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: to put myself in the shoes of the pigeon and 498 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: imagine somebody like sticking me in a cage, transporting me, say, um, 499 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 1: you know two counties over, releasing me in the wild 500 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 1: and giving me a message to return to my house 501 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: with to my house us uh, and I would probably 502 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: just die in the woods in those casas. So it's uh, 503 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 1: you know, it's we look at something like the pigeon, 504 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: an animal that is not um held in high esteem 505 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: by most people. You know. We we think of pigeons, 506 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: we think of essentially winged rats in the city, and 507 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: we we we may not stop to realize, you know, 508 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: what kind of amazing navigational abilities they have, but they do. Uh. 509 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: They the pigeons can do, can do these feats that 510 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: that humans would be completely lost to try and replicate. 511 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: Do you think the pigeons internal uh navigational computer is 512 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: as annoying as the navigation app on most phones or 513 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: like you know, uh GPS devices. Um, I would think not, 514 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 1: because it's a part of them, right. I mean that 515 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: the annoying thing about GPS technology is that it is 516 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: external and uh, it's it's something we have to divert 517 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: attention to or and or you know, we we draw 518 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: our phone out of that little cradle, or horsing around 519 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: with it while going down the interstate. I don't know 520 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: what brand it was, but there was one I used 521 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 1: to interact with fairly. It wasn't mine, it was somebody else's. 522 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 1: But uh, but it was incredibly passive aggressive, so like 523 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: anytime you missed a turn, you would almost hear it, 524 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: like get kind of huffy. It would go recalculating. Yeah, yeah, 525 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: they're all sorts of weird quirks like that. They've gotten 526 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: a lot better, but yeah, it's still they don't Still 527 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 1: they still don't feel like a natural instinct by any stretch. Now, 528 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: obviously we could spend more time here talking about the 529 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: navigational abilities of pigeons and and certainly the way that 530 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: pigeons and other animals, uh, you know, seemingly interact with 531 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: the magnetic field, but we want to take a quick 532 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: break here. When we come back, we're gonna move on 533 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: to the next animal. In this episode, we're going to 534 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: discuss the owls of Harry Potter, but more specifically the 535 00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: owls of the real world. Thank alright, we're back, all right, Robert, 536 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: give it to me straight. What are the what are 537 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: the chances the fighting chances of a military force that 538 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: wants to deliver messages between its ranks by the use 539 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: of war owls. Well, it depends if we're talking about 540 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: muggles or we're talking about members of the wizard In Community. 541 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: I'm talking about real real world here. Well, just to 542 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: take the pigeons of World War One replace them with owls. 543 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: What happens, um, Well, then the messages don't get delivered 544 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: for starters, because I think ultimately an important part of 545 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: this is the of course, the legacy of using the pigeons. 546 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: But the question that the bigger question is what what 547 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,719 Speaker 1: if there had been no pigeons? What if for some 548 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: reason early on people had gone the direction of the 549 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: wizard In community in the Harry Potter novels and had said, 550 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: let's use owls. Let's let's not focus on any other animals. 551 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: Let's focus on this species or the species of owl. 552 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: Can we use this animal to deliver our messages? Right? 553 00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: Whether rain or snow or dead of night, will this 554 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: owl deliver your message? Right? And I have to say 555 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: when we we set out to do this episode. My 556 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: initial suspected answer was going to be, no, they can't. 557 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: And I suspected that the reason was going to be 558 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: that owls are dumb, that owls are like really dumb 559 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: because and this is this is like, this is pre research, 560 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: but I've found that multiple bird shows that I go to, 561 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: you know, bird shows or like wildlife rescue places, places 562 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: where they have say an owl that can't be rereleased 563 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: into the wild because it has a damaged wing, and 564 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: so it's used for educational purposes. Multiple times. Uh, the 565 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: you know, the individual caring for the creatures has pointed 566 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: out that, well, this owl is really dumb. It's just 567 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: not a smart creature. Um. And so you know, we 568 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: have their their limits on what we can expect from 569 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: from it. That's strange. I tend to find that people 570 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: who work directly with animals are tending they tend to 571 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: air on the side of overstating the animals intelligence. Well, 572 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: and I don't mean to speak for every like wildlife 573 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: rescu you um individual out there or bird show worker, 574 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: et cetera. But you know, it stood out to me, 575 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: and it probably stood out to me because there is 576 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: this idea of the wise owl. You know, um, you 577 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: know it's it's firmly established not only in pop culture, 578 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: but in our mythic traditions. The owl was the bird 579 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: of Athena, the Greek goddess of wisdom. They were thought 580 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: to see the future, and of course they're nocturnal nature 581 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: in their silent flight made them creatures of occult fascination. 582 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: The Romans saw them as portents of doom. Uh. They 583 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: fulfill a number of roles among the native peoples of 584 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: North and South America, ranging from dire omens to uh, 585 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: you know, actual spirits of the dead. And in some 586 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: some traditions the owl is an evil creature uh. And 587 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: in other times that you know, it's associated with the goddess, 588 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: as in Athena's case, or in Welsh mythology, the goddess 589 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: Blotta wed is associated with the owl. It is not 590 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: hard at all to imagine how owls could come to 591 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: occupy a place of like terrifying spiritual power, because have 592 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: you ever been out in the woods at night and 593 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: heard an owl? It's I mean, it's a cliche now 594 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: because it's in the movies and all that, but in 595 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: person it is freaky. Yes, yeah, and then they have 596 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: enormous eyes which you can't help but lock eyes with 597 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: the owl, and it's it's intimidating to to look at them. 598 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: They're just in there, just fascinating, impressive specimens. Um. And 599 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: in terms of pop culture, who can forget the great 600 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: owl from the Secretive Nim It's so good. Yeah, but 601 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: kind of Wilford Brimley faced owl. It had some heavy 602 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: brows and mustache from what I recall, but it also 603 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: glowing eyes. Yeah. Um. And you know, there are a 604 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: lot of different types of owls. There's something like two 605 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: hundred species roughly. They're amazing creatures. And there's somewhere in 606 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: the neighborhood of two hundred different species of owl. Um. 607 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: By the way, possibly the largest owl ever to walk 608 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: the earth the Cuban giant owl, which stood about three 609 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: foot seven or one point one meters tall and was 610 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: either flightless or nearly flight A giant flightless owl, So 611 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: what was it like a like a raptor that like 612 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: run around along the ground and snatch up its prey 613 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: I be least, so yeah, and you know, we could 614 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: possibly have achieved you know, very limited flight, much in 615 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: the same way a chicken may fly, but but owls 616 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: are are specialized killers. They're they're mostly solitary creatures. There's 617 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: not a lot of social complexity to their brainload. Um, 618 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's more about the spotting uh 619 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: and and perceiving prey and then stealthily swooping down on 620 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: them and uh and um and snatching them up. But 621 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:42,959 Speaker 1: but I was, I was looking into this more and 622 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: I found a book, uh titled The Science of Harry 623 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: Potter from two thousand two by Roger high Field. And uh, 624 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: it's it's a pretty cool book obviously, Um, you know 625 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: it's it's been out for a few years. But um, 626 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: so this would have only been like the earliest Harry 627 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: Potter books, right, Not that the use of owls really, 628 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: you know, change as much in the series. It's pretty stationary. 629 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: Owls are just how you send messages. But the major 630 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: reason he says that owls wouldn't be ideal for this 631 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: sort of work is that most of them are rather setentary, 632 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: so they don't migrate, uh and migrate Harry skills, you know, 633 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: would be ideal for the sort of messaging work. Um, 634 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: it's it's kind of like if you've heard I know 635 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: you and I have heard this uh presented and kind 636 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: of like a self defense uh scenario by saying that 637 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: if if someone is looking to say rob you on 638 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,839 Speaker 1: the street, uh, they have a remember the term uses. 639 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,280 Speaker 1: They have a small office, they have a small work area, 640 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: and you want to get out of that work area 641 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: because there's like just a you know, it's like a 642 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: pickpocket or robbers working like within like one street worth 643 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: of area. And that's the similar case with a lot 644 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,800 Speaker 1: of predatory organisms. Uh. They ultimately have a small zone 645 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,760 Speaker 1: in which they operate. They operate very well in that zone, 646 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: but you out of that zone and you might be 647 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: in the clear. Now, that might be a good point 648 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: about the owls not being migratory and being fairly sedentary. 649 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,320 Speaker 1: But then again, I believe pigeons are non migratory or 650 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: at least most in most cases non migratory, and yet 651 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,839 Speaker 1: they have this powerful homing and messaging ability. And then 652 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: also in high field does acknowledge that, well, you do 653 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: have some owls that are migratory, so you have I 654 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: think two out of the five native UK owl species 655 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: are migratory and nature and in theory could handle the 656 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 1: ranges involved in most Potter World letters. Um. And they 657 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: have great eyesight which would be useful as well. So 658 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: we think of like the ways that these uh you 659 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,760 Speaker 1: know that that that have given messenger species would find 660 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 1: the places that needs to go. Well, the owl has 661 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: excellent eyesight, could be it would be very useful. Now 662 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: as for their brain power, um he he pointed out 663 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: that there had not been a lot of systematic study 664 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,879 Speaker 1: of owl brain power. But this would have been two 665 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: thousand two, right, but he said, but he also acknowledged that, 666 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: you know, there have been some some work in you know, 667 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: looking at the memory of barn owls, specifically by Eric 668 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: Knudsen at Stanford University, and that research seemed to show 669 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: that they did have solid working memories. Um. While on 670 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: the other hand, some owl species were considered to be 671 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: quote rather dim due to their the predatory niche that 672 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: they depended on. Now, but of course, in all of this, anytime, 673 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: we're talking about animal intelligence, where it's always a bit unfair, right, 674 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: because ultimately a given species is as intelligent as it 675 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: needs to be for what it does, right. And I mean, 676 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: even given that caveat, I think we have learned a 677 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: lot more about bird intelligence just in the past couple 678 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,840 Speaker 1: of decades than we knew before. Like, uh, it is 679 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: becoming increasingly clear how smart corvids are, and we'll talk 680 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,240 Speaker 1: about that when we get to ravens in the next section. 681 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 1: But we didn't always know everything we know now about 682 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 1: bird intelligence. I think the picture is becoming clearer that 683 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: the birds are much smarter than we have long thought, 684 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: though not every bird is equally more intelligent than we 685 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 1: have long thought, right, I mean it ultimately is a 686 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: lot is going to depend on what that that particular bird, 687 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: or in this case, what that owl does. UM. For instance, 688 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 1: I was looking around at some UM, some some other 689 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,240 Speaker 1: some actual studies on this UM two thousand thirteen study 690 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,880 Speaker 1: from the International Journal of Comparative Psychology found that the 691 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: great gray owl or Stricts nebulosa, which that's one of 692 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: my favorites. There, that's that's I mean, that's that sounds 693 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: like a spell from Harry Potter. Um. These particular owls 694 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,359 Speaker 1: didn't do so hot and cognitive ability tests, they said 695 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: to quote, our results suggest that the owl's failed to 696 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: comprehend the physics underlying the object relationships involved in the 697 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 1: task presented. But then again has pointed out in any 698 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,800 Speaker 1: two thousand four study published in Nature from Levy Duncan 699 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: and Levin's burrowing owls or Atheny Cunicularia, which is another 700 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: nice one. Uh. They use dung as a tool, or 701 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: at least they use dung as bait to a track 702 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: that dung beetles, which are a favorite prey. But you 703 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 1: could would that be a like novel or cognitively discovered 704 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: behavior or is that more probably like an instinct? I 705 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 1: don't know, but they they they were framing it in 706 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: terms of, you know, this is a potential tool use. 707 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: That is, you know, and granted any time your tool 708 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 1: is dung, these deasbit I mean, it's not quite the 709 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: same as using a uh you know, a crafted twig 710 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 1: uh to to pull grubs out of a out of 711 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 1: a log or something. Just because it's dune doesn't mean 712 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: it's not a tool. Yeah, but I mean it still 713 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: works for him. So, I mean, ultimately, high Field had 714 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 1: argued that, well, maybe maybe the NOWL could be used 715 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 1: for such purposes, and I think, uh, you know, based 716 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 1: on some of the other research we're looking at, it 717 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: does seem like the NOWL could pull off some of 718 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: the feats involved. Well, I think one of the big 719 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 1: questions that you would need to ask about whether a 720 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: bird could be trained as some kind of messenger would 721 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 1: be how well do they respond to training right and 722 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 1: to domestic domestication. I mean, sadly, the popularity of the 723 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: Harry Potter books and movies reportedly caused an increase in 724 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,799 Speaker 1: the trafficking of pet owls, which J. K. Rowling has 725 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: is vocally condemned. By the way, do not go out 726 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: and try and buy a pet owl just because you 727 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 1: like Harry Potter. Um. But one of the important cases 728 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 1: here is that that outside of the magical world or 729 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 1: the realm of professional wildlife rescue efforts, owls should not 730 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,800 Speaker 1: be kept in cages and they're you know, they're not 731 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: going to deliver your mail for you. But but more 732 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: to the point that, you know, handling pigeons is one thing. 733 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: Stuffing them in and out of cages by hand, it's 734 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: one thing. But an owl has some pretty vicious talents 735 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: that can certainly send you to the hospital. So owls 736 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 1: are just generally not good candidates for domestication right outside 737 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,919 Speaker 1: of a magical um you know, fantasy series. Uh, it 738 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,399 Speaker 1: doesn't say like the talents alone would give me. Pause. Um, 739 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: if you you know, look up if you're if you're 740 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 1: curious about this, do a Google image search on like 741 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,320 Speaker 1: owl related injuries. You'll find some nice wipes and slices 742 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: here and there, and it'll be enough to make you think, well, yeah, 743 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: maybe we should leave the owls alone as much as possible. 744 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:17,839 Speaker 1: All right, let's take a break. When we come back, 745 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: we will talk about ravens as messengers. Thank alright, we're back. 746 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 1: We've talked about real world homing pigeons. We've talked about 747 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,319 Speaker 1: the owls of Harry Potter, and to what extent the 748 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: owls of the real world could or could not match 749 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: up to their to to the sort of message delivering 750 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 1: service that we see in the Harry Potter novels. They 751 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: don't seem like great candidates. I think, yeah, it seems 752 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 1: like you're better sticking off sticking with the pigeon, unless 753 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: you have the magic to make it possible. Uh So, 754 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: let's turn now to Game of Thrones, to wester Roast 755 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: and the use of ravens. Why are we not using 756 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 1: ravens And if we really wanted to, could we use 757 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,319 Speaker 1: ravens to deliver our messages? Uh? This one I think 758 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: the prospects are different, but maybe a little bit better 759 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: than owl. So you mentioned in mythology earlier that, uh, 760 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:10,880 Speaker 1: you talked about the doves of the Noah story in 761 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 1: the Book of Genesis. You know, Noah releases doves and 762 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: eventually they let him know that all the waters are 763 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,279 Speaker 1: gone from the earth. But don't forget, there's another part 764 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: of the story. This very strange doesn't necessarily really seem 765 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 1: to add up to anything, but Noah actually sends out 766 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: a raven. First. It's kind of hard to tell what 767 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 1: the raven is supposed to be doing in the story 768 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,440 Speaker 1: when it starts off by saying, then it came about 769 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 1: the end of forty days, so it's been you know, 770 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,359 Speaker 1: forty days and forty nights of raining. At the end 771 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: of forty days that Noah opened the window of the 772 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,400 Speaker 1: arc which he had made, and he sent out a 773 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 1: raven and it flew here and there until the water 774 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,880 Speaker 1: was dried up from the earth. And then after that 775 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: it just goes straight into the story with the doves. Uh. 776 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: So that's confusing. I'm not quite sure what's happening there. 777 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 1: I do know that there is some uh, there's some 778 00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: theories about the version of the story of the Great 779 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,280 Speaker 1: Flood that have that say that it's actually at least 780 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,360 Speaker 1: two different original stories that have essentially been edited together 781 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 1: in the version that we have of the Book of Genesis. 782 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,239 Speaker 1: So it could this could reflect different versions of the 783 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,960 Speaker 1: same story just sort of being stitched together. But I 784 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,239 Speaker 1: don't know that. So, like one of them is the 785 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 1: George R. Martin, Yes, exactly. It was never finished, so 786 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,439 Speaker 1: they had to dislike slap it together with this other 787 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: version of the story. Yeah, so some other author is like, 788 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 1: I don't like the raven I'm gonna do doves, okay, 789 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: But they also didn't want to throw anything away, so 790 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 1: the ravens still there. But yeah, anyway, that's one of 791 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 1: those interesting little textual mysteries. Uh so, but yeah, the 792 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: question would ravens be good messenger birds as in Game 793 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,720 Speaker 1: of Thrones. Now, in the world of George R. Martin's 794 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 1: Song of Ice and Fire and the TV show Game 795 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 1: of Thrones, the people of Westeros they use ravens mainly 796 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,879 Speaker 1: to send long distance messages. Like we're talking about much 797 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,400 Speaker 1: very very comparable to the way people have used messenger pigeons. 798 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: There's a scene where Master Aim and the the master, 799 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,399 Speaker 1: like the sort of uh learned person at the up 800 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,200 Speaker 1: at the wall tells John snow quote, doves and pigeons 801 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,400 Speaker 1: can also be trained to carry messages, though the raven 802 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 1: is a stronger, flyer, larger, bolder, far more clever, better 803 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 1: able to defend itself against hawks. So I think we 804 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: should keep that in mind, and we'll come back to 805 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,440 Speaker 1: it later to see whether Master Raymond's mostly or not 806 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,719 Speaker 1: on the money there. The first thing we should look at, 807 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: of course, is whether in fact ravens are far more clever. 808 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: And I think the answer to this is a resounding yes. Yeah. 809 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,800 Speaker 1: And this was I guess before we went into the research, 810 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: my suspicion was they might be too clever like that 811 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: that and this may be you know, unfounded bias, but 812 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,040 Speaker 1: it was like, maybe maybe the owl is too dumb, 813 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,280 Speaker 1: maybe though the raven is too smart in the pigeon 814 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,360 Speaker 1: is just this perfect uh uh you know a mix 815 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: of skill and uh in navigational ability. But also it's 816 00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 1: not gonna, you know, get bored and curious on the way. 817 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 1: I can totally see why you would think that, but 818 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,080 Speaker 1: I don't think that's what I would think. After the 819 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 1: research for this episode, I think that that sort of 820 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 1: underestimates owls a bit, maybe overestimates pigeons and ravens and 821 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,799 Speaker 1: and the unruling nous of intelligence, because it is the 822 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:22,240 Speaker 1: case that for many very intelligent animals it doesn't necessarily 823 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,719 Speaker 1: manifest as like a surliness and rebellious nous. I mean, 824 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:30,680 Speaker 1: often very intelligent animals can respond well to training and conditioning, 825 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,960 Speaker 1: though often they respond in ways that are unpredictable to you, 826 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,239 Speaker 1: which is that's an interesting thing we'll get to in 827 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,799 Speaker 1: a minute about ravens. So ravens are corvids. They're a 828 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 1: family of birds, containing many other kinds such as crows, jays, 829 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:48,520 Speaker 1: and magpies. Both corvids in general and ravens in particular, have, 830 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 1: especially in recent years, but for a long time, been 831 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:55,760 Speaker 1: known to be extremely intelligent, and especially in recent years, 832 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 1: we've gotten these studies that show these startling displays of 833 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:02,520 Speaker 1: intelligence and la conditions. And there are tons of examples 834 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 1: of this. If you want a whole episode focused on 835 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 1: this subject, go back to the one we did a 836 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,799 Speaker 1: couple of years ago called the Unsettling Depths of Bird Intelligence. 837 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:12,520 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that was a good one, and that we 838 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: also talked a little mythology in that one. I remember 839 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,440 Speaker 1: Hoogan and Moon and oh yeah, the Norse mythology that 840 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 1: represents aspects of what Odin's memory, his thoughts and his memory. 841 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, And we also talked about it with Jason 842 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 1: Ward when he came on the show to talk about 843 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 1: the Birds of the City. But yeah, there's just so 844 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,279 Speaker 1: many interesting stories about what corvid's and ravens in particular 845 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,480 Speaker 1: can do. Just one recent example I was reading about 846 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,439 Speaker 1: about the intelligence of ravens in particular came from a 847 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:46,799 Speaker 1: couple of researchers at Sweden's Lunda University named Can Kabadii 848 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,920 Speaker 1: and Matthias os Fath, who did a study where they 849 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:54,720 Speaker 1: showed really intelligent, interesting forethought, or at least what seems 850 00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,319 Speaker 1: like evidence of it in ravens. So it's already been 851 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:01,359 Speaker 1: demonstrated many times that corvids, like crows and ravens can 852 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,200 Speaker 1: use tools, and that's one of the hallmarks of complex intelligence, 853 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,440 Speaker 1: once thought to belong to primates alone. You know, if 854 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: you go back and look at old textbooks, it's like 855 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,799 Speaker 1: only humans and the great apes can use tools. But 856 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:18,640 Speaker 1: nowadays corvids and certain occupy take issue with that. Oh yes, certainly. 857 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,880 Speaker 1: And one of the interesting things about this to me 858 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,960 Speaker 1: is that tool using suggests that if you go way 859 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,400 Speaker 1: back in time, rewind the clock and just let evolution 860 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 1: run out in a different way. If other types of 861 00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,000 Speaker 1: animals with the seeds of tool using intelligence could have 862 00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 1: independently developed their own technological civilization the way primates like 863 00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,440 Speaker 1: us did. Yeah, what sort of world would it be 864 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:47,440 Speaker 1: if it was a world of corvid technology? Raven world? 865 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,040 Speaker 1: But so, yeah, we know now that corvids like ravens 866 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 1: use tools. And this more recent study showed that once 867 00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:58,080 Speaker 1: ravens had learned that they could use a particular tool 868 00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,720 Speaker 1: to open a box and get a piece of dog kibble, 869 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,280 Speaker 1: which they absolutely love, they would choose if they could 870 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:09,120 Speaker 1: to grab that particular box opening tool and keep it 871 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,720 Speaker 1: on hand when the food box was not even present, 872 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,360 Speaker 1: so that they could use it to open the box 873 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,239 Speaker 1: later whenever it was presented to them, maybe you know, 874 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,960 Speaker 1: minutes or hours later. So that's already interesting. Like the 875 00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:25,320 Speaker 1: bird is is recognizing, Okay, I can use this tool 876 00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:27,439 Speaker 1: to get food. I'm going to hang onto the tool 877 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,200 Speaker 1: even though I can't use it right now. Yeah, they're 878 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:34,680 Speaker 1: thinking ahead. Also, the same researchers demonstrated evidence that ravens, 879 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,800 Speaker 1: on average have a pretty strong ability to delay gratification 880 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 1: to get better rewards, like as demonstrated in humans with 881 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,880 Speaker 1: the marshmallow test. Yeah, yeah, so of course the classic 882 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,200 Speaker 1: marshmallow tests. Why am I getting a tickle that that 883 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,359 Speaker 1: somehow people have questioned the setting of that test. Now, 884 00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 1: they've certainly been a legacy of reproducing the test and 885 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,720 Speaker 1: altering the Yeah, different versions of the test. Well maybe 886 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:03,880 Speaker 1: I don't remember what that is off the top of 887 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:05,640 Speaker 1: my head. Maybe we can revisit that in the future. 888 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,080 Speaker 1: The basic ideas like, you know, if you cannot eat 889 00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,720 Speaker 1: this marshmallow for five minutes, you'll get three marshmallows or something. 890 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,160 Speaker 1: Um and and they do a version of that kind 891 00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:19,160 Speaker 1: of thing with different animals to test their abilities. By 892 00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:22,000 Speaker 1: and large, animals are terrible at this, just hopeless. You know, 893 00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,319 Speaker 1: they live in the moment, They have impulses immediately if 894 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:26,839 Speaker 1: a piece of food is in front of them, they're 895 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,440 Speaker 1: gonna eat it. But in this uh, this current group. 896 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,080 Speaker 1: What the study found is that when you give the 897 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,640 Speaker 1: ravens a choice between okay, you can grab an okay 898 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,480 Speaker 1: piece of food right now, or you can grab a 899 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,920 Speaker 1: tool or a bartering token that the ravens have learned 900 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 1: can be used to access a better, more delicious piece 901 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,840 Speaker 1: of food. Later. One of these experiments showed that ravens 902 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,520 Speaker 1: will pick the delayed path to better food more than 903 00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,280 Speaker 1: seventy percent of the time to be exactive, with seventy 904 00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,920 Speaker 1: three percent of the time they'd get the tool or 905 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,240 Speaker 1: the bartering token I knew would lead to the better 906 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:05,319 Speaker 1: delicious piece of kibble. And in these experiments the intelligence 907 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 1: of the ravens in question was even sometimes an impediment 908 00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:12,160 Speaker 1: to controlling the experiment, because, for example, I was reading 909 00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,359 Speaker 1: a Motherboard article about their research where they talked about 910 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,200 Speaker 1: how there was one raven that started building his own 911 00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:22,080 Speaker 1: tools to defeat the box uh and so instead of 912 00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:25,239 Speaker 1: using the tool they were supplying to the raven, it 913 00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,000 Speaker 1: was like, I can I can get around this, and 914 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,759 Speaker 1: so it was like putting together sticks in an arrangement 915 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,160 Speaker 1: there where it could trigger and open the box without 916 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,040 Speaker 1: the tool they supplied it. And also that one raven 917 00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:39,319 Speaker 1: apparently started trying to teach the other ravens how to 918 00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:44,000 Speaker 1: exploit the box, and neurologically speaking, it's been shown for example, 919 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,040 Speaker 1: in a paper in P and A. S by Alkawitz 920 00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:50,160 Speaker 1: at all that birds like corvids and some parrots have 921 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:54,360 Speaker 1: an enormous number of neurons packed into the four brain areas. 922 00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,520 Speaker 1: Uh quote. Large parrots and corvids have the same or 923 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,120 Speaker 1: greater four brain neur on counts as monkeys with much 924 00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:06,320 Speaker 1: larger brains. Avian brains thus have the potential to provide 925 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:11,320 Speaker 1: much higher cognitive power per unit mass than do mammalian brains. 926 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,720 Speaker 1: So you know, mammals primates like us, we've got bigger 927 00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,680 Speaker 1: brains than birds do. But it seems like birds are 928 00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,919 Speaker 1: really packing in the neuron connections in there to make 929 00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:25,080 Speaker 1: make more with less matter. But they're also really startling 930 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,839 Speaker 1: examples of social intelligence in corvid's like ravens like there's 931 00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,359 Speaker 1: stories of how bird trainers who have close relationships with 932 00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,520 Speaker 1: pet ravens can train these ravens to follow and fly 933 00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,520 Speaker 1: ahead of them. There's even videos watching before we came 934 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,600 Speaker 1: in here of a BBC Earth segment where they had 935 00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,640 Speaker 1: a raven trainer who had a relationship, a previous existing 936 00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,239 Speaker 1: relationship with this raven that he trained for a long time, 937 00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,120 Speaker 1: and this guy's riding along on the side of a 938 00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,240 Speaker 1: fast moving truck with the raven just like flying along, 939 00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,359 Speaker 1: chasing after him, trying to land on his arm. So 940 00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,760 Speaker 1: I mean that kind of activity, like the raven chasing 941 00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:05,040 Speaker 1: after him makes me think, Okay, I see its potential 942 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:09,640 Speaker 1: possibility for like a delivery system involving ravens doesn't seem 943 00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:12,000 Speaker 1: entirely out of the question. You know, I'm just remembering 944 00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,480 Speaker 1: when we did this earlier episode on bird intelligence. One 945 00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,400 Speaker 1: of the things we did was I interviewed one of 946 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,400 Speaker 1: the researchers who had worked on a paper that we 947 00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:24,000 Speaker 1: talked about in that episode on on bird intelligence. Uh, 948 00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:28,600 Speaker 1: the researcher owner Gunterqune. And you know, I was asking 949 00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:33,759 Speaker 1: him about the differences in cognitive ability between different bird species, 950 00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:37,799 Speaker 1: and basically the question of like, have we underestimated all 951 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:42,000 Speaker 1: birds or is it like just basically corvids and parrots 952 00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,960 Speaker 1: that are smarter than we thought. And he was pretty 953 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,760 Speaker 1: generous in his estimate of all birds though, of course 954 00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,319 Speaker 1: corvids and parrots. He said, you know, essentially there's no 955 00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,799 Speaker 1: major cognitive difference between what they can do and what 956 00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,640 Speaker 1: primates can do. Uh. So you know, he's putting them 957 00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:59,800 Speaker 1: like way up there on the cognitive ladder like that 958 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,239 Speaker 1: are much smarter than we realized for a long time. 959 00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,120 Speaker 1: But even birds like pigeons and chickens, he put more 960 00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:08,000 Speaker 1: on the level of like mice and rats, which you know, 961 00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:10,919 Speaker 1: I think the average person would probably assume that mice 962 00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:14,560 Speaker 1: are a lot smarter than pigeons, that that's not necessarily true. Yeah, 963 00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:16,319 Speaker 1: and then the idea that a chicken is up there 964 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:20,879 Speaker 1: as well, I mean, checkmate Verner Herzog, Yeah, that's right. 965 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,280 Speaker 1: Who I believe what he was Herzog had said, that's 966 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,759 Speaker 1: something about their being just this like the overwhelming immensity 967 00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,480 Speaker 1: of stupidity and guys looking back at you from a 968 00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:35,920 Speaker 1: chicken chicken. I think what he's seeing there is not stupidity. 969 00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:39,759 Speaker 1: He's seeing like profound ancient magic. That chicken is a dinosaur. 970 00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:45,160 Speaker 1: I mean birds are again dinosaurs. They're the Avian dinosaurs. 971 00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:47,560 Speaker 1: They're the dinosaurs that are left. And he is seeing 972 00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,400 Speaker 1: a lineage going back tens of millions of years all 973 00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,799 Speaker 1: the way to the JUNGI sorry, some deep cuts on 974 00:52:55,239 --> 00:53:00,720 Speaker 1: Herzogs here, but I can't go too deep. Uh. But anyway, 975 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:02,560 Speaker 1: I think it is fair to say that ravens are 976 00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:06,480 Speaker 1: much more strikingly intelligent than pigeons, but also that pigeons 977 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:10,719 Speaker 1: are probably more intelligent than people usually give them credit for. Um. 978 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,320 Speaker 1: One interesting and funny Game of Thrones parallel I came across. 979 00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,520 Speaker 1: There's a scene in the in the Song of Ice 980 00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:19,640 Speaker 1: and Fire books where you know, the three eyed crow 981 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:21,440 Speaker 1: in the books, he's called the three eyed crow in 982 00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:23,719 Speaker 1: the books and three ad Raven in the show. The 983 00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,840 Speaker 1: guy played by Max von Sdlo in the books, he 984 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,560 Speaker 1: you know, he's talking to young brand Stark, which another 985 00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,480 Speaker 1: side note I just found out the other day that 986 00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:39,120 Speaker 1: brand in Welsh I believe means raven or means But 987 00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,080 Speaker 1: he's speaking to the character brand Stark, and he says, 988 00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,160 Speaker 1: it was the singers who taught the first men to 989 00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:47,400 Speaker 1: send messages by raven. But in those days the birds 990 00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:51,440 Speaker 1: would speak the words the trees remember, but men forget, 991 00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,520 Speaker 1: and so now they write the messages on parchment and 992 00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:56,440 Speaker 1: tie them around the feets of the birds who have 993 00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,480 Speaker 1: never shared their skin. So I think this is different 994 00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,399 Speaker 1: because he's talking about war, gang and magical stuff. It's 995 00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,560 Speaker 1: in the books, but he's saying it used to be 996 00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:07,239 Speaker 1: that you'd like tell the message to the raven, and 997 00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:09,200 Speaker 1: the raven would go carry the message, and when it 998 00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:10,879 Speaker 1: got there, it didn't let you didn't have to take 999 00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:13,040 Speaker 1: a tag of parchment off its leg. It would just 1000 00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:16,480 Speaker 1: tell you the message. And this actually does have some 1001 00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:20,200 Speaker 1: basis in reality, because ravens, much like parrots, can be 1002 00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:23,359 Speaker 1: trained to mimic human sounds, like talking even better than 1003 00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,120 Speaker 1: parrots in some cases. And if you don't believe me, 1004 00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:29,280 Speaker 1: look it up. There are videos of this online talking ravens. 1005 00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:35,880 Speaker 1: It's creepy. No, it's not creepy, it's gorgeous. Yeah, well, 1006 00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:38,000 Speaker 1: that that's amazing because I would have just have assumed 1007 00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,280 Speaker 1: assumed that you know, this is just a purely magical 1008 00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:44,320 Speaker 1: wrinkle in the world building here. But yeah, the idea 1009 00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,480 Speaker 1: that you could you can on some level train a 1010 00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:51,359 Speaker 1: raven to mimic human language, that's that's incredible, I think, 1011 00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,080 Speaker 1: especially if you bred them for it, like the best, 1012 00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:57,280 Speaker 1: the best ones best at mimicking human language and talking. 1013 00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:00,520 Speaker 1: You bred them for repeating phrases, and you train them 1014 00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:03,680 Speaker 1: individually in their lives. I don't know. I think it's 1015 00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,000 Speaker 1: not out of the question, but I don't know of 1016 00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,000 Speaker 1: any cases in the real world where there have been 1017 00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,279 Speaker 1: like breeding programs to try to bring out like the 1018 00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:13,719 Speaker 1: best talking ravens or even I mean, I didn't even 1019 00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,200 Speaker 1: know to what extent that's been done with with parrots 1020 00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:22,440 Speaker 1: A I wonder. Uh. Anyway, a few other things of notes. 1021 00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:26,839 Speaker 1: So I was reading about the University of Vienna biologist 1022 00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:31,360 Speaker 1: Matthias Claudio Loretto speaking to the writer Ella Davies for 1023 00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:35,879 Speaker 1: The Guardian in seen on the question of ravens as messengers. 1024 00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:39,400 Speaker 1: So they're directly addressing this question from the Game of 1025 00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:42,760 Speaker 1: Thrones show. And so Loretto is a researcher who works 1026 00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:44,919 Speaker 1: with ravens, and he said the following. So he said, 1027 00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:48,719 Speaker 1: they're good flyers, maybe not well suited to quickly crossing 1028 00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:53,920 Speaker 1: long distances. Uh, some bird species are already biologically adapted 1029 00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:58,880 Speaker 1: to rapid long distance migrations. Ravens are not one of them. Basically, 1030 00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,560 Speaker 1: everywhere except in the Arctic, ravens are quote non migratory 1031 00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:07,000 Speaker 1: and move rather opportunistically. That said, they can sometimes fly 1032 00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,960 Speaker 1: across moderately long distances. And now I'm trying to think 1033 00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,240 Speaker 1: back to my my maps of wester Ros and exactly 1034 00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:18,319 Speaker 1: what sort of distances we're talking about between say, the 1035 00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,319 Speaker 1: Wall and winter Fell. I think it's supposed to be 1036 00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:23,640 Speaker 1: pretty far. I think I remember off the top of 1037 00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:25,560 Speaker 1: my head that the wester ros is supposed to be 1038 00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:29,400 Speaker 1: roughly the size of the continent of South America. But 1039 00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:34,359 Speaker 1: to mention specifics about ravens traveling abilities that that that 1040 00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:37,239 Speaker 1: research I just mentioned. Loretto and a couple of other 1041 00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:41,759 Speaker 1: researchers published a studying current zoology in two sixteen that 1042 00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:45,680 Speaker 1: GPS tagged ravens to track their natural movements out in 1043 00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:49,239 Speaker 1: the wild, and they found a maximum movement range for 1044 00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,080 Speaker 1: one day of of about a hundred and sixty kilometers. 1045 00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:54,880 Speaker 1: That was the maximum, but this was not common, and 1046 00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,040 Speaker 1: it's way less than the daily traveling distance of say 1047 00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:01,280 Speaker 1: a car, you know, and a lot of ravens. Mostly 1048 00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,640 Speaker 1: what they did, the researchers discovered was they hung around 1049 00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:08,279 Speaker 1: quote anthropogenic food sources. That's not surprising, you know, like 1050 00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:11,920 Speaker 1: the bodies of the dead that have been put up 1051 00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:15,279 Speaker 1: on pikes by some victorious army. That absolutely would be 1052 00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:18,080 Speaker 1: an anthropogenic food source. I imagine this is more likely 1053 00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:22,360 Speaker 1: kind of a pizza rat scen area. Okay, But in 1054 00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:24,520 Speaker 1: terms of how fast they travel, they could be found 1055 00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:27,560 Speaker 1: traveling at speeds of up to forty per hour about 1056 00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:30,800 Speaker 1: twenty five miles per hour UM. So let's see how 1057 00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:33,320 Speaker 1: this matches up against the Masta Raymond quote I read 1058 00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:36,760 Speaker 1: earlier about why ravens are better than pigeons at at 1059 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,320 Speaker 1: delivering messages. So compared to the pigeon, Mast Raymond says, 1060 00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:45,360 Speaker 1: a raven is a stronger flyer, larger, bolder, far more clever, 1061 00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:49,640 Speaker 1: and better better able to defend itself against hawks. So 1062 00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:53,000 Speaker 1: when he says that a raven is a stronger flyer 1063 00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:56,000 Speaker 1: than the pigeon, it's hard to know exactly what he 1064 00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:58,040 Speaker 1: means there. It would depend on what stronger means, But 1065 00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,440 Speaker 1: in general I don't think that's true. If it means faster, 1066 00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,560 Speaker 1: that seems to be a no. Because the ravens normal 1067 00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:07,680 Speaker 1: top range of traveling speed looks like it's about forty 1068 00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:11,200 Speaker 1: kilometers an hour. As we saw earlier. You mentioned the 1069 00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:14,280 Speaker 1: pigeon flies more than double that speed and generally flies 1070 00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,840 Speaker 1: a lot farther. Now, if he means by stronger he 1071 00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,880 Speaker 1: means like more acrobatic, that could be true. Ravens do 1072 00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,439 Speaker 1: have some kind of they got some good moves like 1073 00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:27,080 Speaker 1: and you can if you watch raven flight and slow motion, 1074 00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:29,240 Speaker 1: it can be very cool because they'll do like flips 1075 00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:33,240 Speaker 1: and twists and flapside down and all kind of strange stuff. Now, 1076 00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:36,320 Speaker 1: in addition to the speed and distance of travel, I 1077 00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:39,680 Speaker 1: haven't seen any indication that ravens have the same kind 1078 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:43,400 Speaker 1: of long range navigational abilities that pigeons do. They obviously 1079 00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:46,439 Speaker 1: have some kind of navigational abilities, but I've not seen 1080 00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:48,880 Speaker 1: evidence that there's has been shown to be of the 1081 00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:51,520 Speaker 1: same power as that of the homing pigeon. So the 1082 00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:54,960 Speaker 1: whole ability to find their way back home from great distance, 1083 00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:58,040 Speaker 1: that that may be more unique to the pigeon. Now, 1084 00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,800 Speaker 1: the part where he says it's more clever, that's absolutely true, 1085 00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:06,280 Speaker 1: undoubtedly more clever. But does that matter much in delivering messages? 1086 00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:08,120 Speaker 1: I don't know how clever does it have to be 1087 00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:11,040 Speaker 1: to just get something from one place to another, right, 1088 00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:14,640 Speaker 1: I mean, if they're not actively engaging in spycraft, if 1089 00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:18,840 Speaker 1: they're just taking a message and delivering it without getting 1090 00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:22,640 Speaker 1: snatched up by a hawk from one fortress to another, Yeah, 1091 00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:24,520 Speaker 1: how what do you need? I will come back to 1092 00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:27,920 Speaker 1: something you just mentioned there though, another thing. The raven 1093 00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:31,360 Speaker 1: is generally larger, that is what what mace to Raymond says. 1094 00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,640 Speaker 1: That is certainly true, but does this matter if it's 1095 00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:37,240 Speaker 1: just delivering a small message written on a piece of paper. 1096 00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:39,040 Speaker 1: I mean it might be able to carry a heavier 1097 00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:41,720 Speaker 1: load if it needed to deliver something big. I mean, 1098 00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:43,920 Speaker 1: if you're smuggling milk of the poppy around, I guess 1099 00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:47,080 Speaker 1: come in hand you. But yes, yea for just a message, 1100 00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:51,080 Speaker 1: what's that can matter? Yeah, he says it's bolder. I 1101 00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:53,040 Speaker 1: don't know exactly what that means, but I think that's 1102 00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,960 Speaker 1: probably true if it means like more aggressive, more likely 1103 00:59:56,000 --> 01:00:00,440 Speaker 1: to approach unfamiliar objects, execute its training. You know, ravens 1104 01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:03,320 Speaker 1: are I think it fits that they are smart and 1105 01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,160 Speaker 1: bold and they'll do what they need to do. When 1106 01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:09,160 Speaker 1: it comes to being better at defending itself against hawks 1107 01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,520 Speaker 1: and other predators. I assume ravens are large. They have 1108 01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,880 Speaker 1: very few natural predators, mainly just humans and some of 1109 01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:20,080 Speaker 1: the larger predatory birds, sometimes including hawks. Uh So yeah, 1110 01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:22,240 Speaker 1: I think that probably is right. They are better able 1111 01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:25,720 Speaker 1: to defend themselves. So I think, based on what I've read, 1112 01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:28,560 Speaker 1: I want to say that while pigeons are generally preferred, 1113 01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:30,960 Speaker 1: and it seems like they naturally, especially when they've been 1114 01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:34,800 Speaker 1: bred this way, fly farther and faster, with a message. 1115 01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:38,200 Speaker 1: I don't see any reason why ravens couldn't in principle 1116 01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,760 Speaker 1: be trained to become messenger birds, especially if they're bred 1117 01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,600 Speaker 1: for that purpose over many years like the pigeons have been. 1118 01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:48,760 Speaker 1: I mean, that's another thing to consider the domestication program here. Yeah, 1119 01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:52,480 Speaker 1: again we have to look at the the longstanding traditions 1120 01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:56,000 Speaker 1: that have enabled the carrier pigeon uh to to be 1121 01:00:56,160 --> 01:01:00,240 Speaker 1: the species of choice for delivering small slopes of paper. Right. 1122 01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:03,240 Speaker 1: But then again, while it may be the case that 1123 01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:08,040 Speaker 1: pigeons are more suited for long range delivery for multiple reasons, 1124 01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:11,280 Speaker 1: ravens might be more useful on other kinds of long 1125 01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:14,320 Speaker 1: range jobs. I would say, for example, if you wanted 1126 01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:18,800 Speaker 1: to train an animal to actively do spying or reconnaissance 1127 01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:21,880 Speaker 1: of some kind, like, I could imagine that you might 1128 01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:25,800 Speaker 1: be able to train ravens to go into an enemy 1129 01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,840 Speaker 1: encampment and recover certain kinds of objects and bring them 1130 01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:32,880 Speaker 1: home to you. Uh, probably better than you could train 1131 01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:35,200 Speaker 1: a pigeon to do something like that. Like if you 1132 01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:39,120 Speaker 1: were to train or raven like basically, the raven new 1133 01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:42,560 Speaker 1: that if it found a flash drive, yes, it could 1134 01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:44,800 Speaker 1: return that and get a special treat yes, and then 1135 01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:48,000 Speaker 1: you would just you know, receive flash drives and hopefully 1136 01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:50,960 Speaker 1: they would have something of interest on them. Yeah. And 1137 01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:54,120 Speaker 1: I think there are some reports that throughout history ravens 1138 01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:57,600 Speaker 1: have been rumored to have been considered for for like 1139 01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:01,640 Speaker 1: war surveillance and and sp nage purposes. I don't know 1140 01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:04,200 Speaker 1: to what extent they've ever been fully used, especially not 1141 01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:06,840 Speaker 1: to the extent that pigeons have been. But there's your 1142 01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:11,360 Speaker 1: movie set up, Raven, James Bond. Yeah. I was trying 1143 01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:15,040 Speaker 1: to think of examples of other messenger animals and fiction, 1144 01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:19,959 Speaker 1: and nothing was really coming to mind except for the idea. 1145 01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:22,280 Speaker 1: And I didn't read the book series. My wife had 1146 01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:25,480 Speaker 1: the books, but at least the television series The Magicians 1147 01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:29,880 Speaker 1: that Arizon Sci Fi. They have these talking rabbits that 1148 01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,560 Speaker 1: they'll share, these messenger rabbits, and they'll just sort of 1149 01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:36,400 Speaker 1: pop into existence on say, your table, and then they'll 1150 01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:41,080 Speaker 1: speak in this um this kind of like weird uh uh. 1151 01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:46,920 Speaker 1: I'm almost Gilbert Godfrey ish voice to deliver the message. Wow. Yeah, 1152 01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,360 Speaker 1: but nobody, that's not We're not even gonna consider the 1153 01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:55,160 Speaker 1: possibility of messenger rabbits here on this podcast. I think 1154 01:02:55,200 --> 01:03:00,680 Speaker 1: we should consider messenger Cicilians like underground amphibians, burrow through 1155 01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:02,840 Speaker 1: the earth until they get to their target and give 1156 01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:06,040 Speaker 1: you the message. And messenger worms it's dirty. It's dirty 1157 01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:09,840 Speaker 1: by the time it arrives. There's some significant slime. Yeah. Well, 1158 01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:12,640 Speaker 1: I wonder if there are any other really fascinating treatments 1159 01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:15,080 Speaker 1: out there. I mean, ultimately, the bird a bird is 1160 01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:17,840 Speaker 1: going to give you the best bang for your buck, right, 1161 01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:20,760 Speaker 1: It's gonna be able to to fly, it's gonna be 1162 01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:23,640 Speaker 1: able to travel in a straight line, it's gonna be 1163 01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:27,080 Speaker 1: able to execute a fair amount of you know, reasonable 1164 01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:31,240 Speaker 1: like stealth and avoidance of threats. And they're smarter than 1165 01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:33,960 Speaker 1: we thought. Yeah, unless I don't know in West in 1166 01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:37,320 Speaker 1: water World, did they have like messenger fish that they used, 1167 01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:42,280 Speaker 1: even that wouldn't be as good as a messenger bird though, yeah, 1168 01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:46,360 Speaker 1: messenger rats, I don't know. Well, at any rate, if 1169 01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:48,880 Speaker 1: you're out here out there listening to this episode, perhaps 1170 01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:52,200 Speaker 1: you have encountered another messenger animal or another variety of 1171 01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:55,680 Speaker 1: messenger bird uh in fiction, and you'd like to share 1172 01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:59,080 Speaker 1: that with us. Likewise, a lot of people still raised. 1173 01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:01,320 Speaker 1: But I have a friend who who just picked up 1174 01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:05,479 Speaker 1: raising carrier pigeons. So perhaps some of you out there 1175 01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:08,680 Speaker 1: have some expertise with pigeons that you would like to share. 1176 01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:12,400 Speaker 1: Perhaps you have some expertise with with owls or ravens 1177 01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:15,160 Speaker 1: you would like to share you have some insight on, uh, 1178 01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:18,040 Speaker 1: the intellect of of the raven or the owl or 1179 01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:20,920 Speaker 1: the pigeon. Obviously we would love to hear from you. 1180 01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:22,640 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you want to check out more 1181 01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:24,160 Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, head on over 1182 01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:25,560 Speaker 1: to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's where 1183 01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:27,400 Speaker 1: you'll find all the episodes. You'll find links out to 1184 01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:29,960 Speaker 1: social media accounts, you'll find a link to our store. 1185 01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:32,040 Speaker 1: It's a cool way to support the show, but the 1186 01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:33,840 Speaker 1: best way to support the show is to rate and 1187 01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:35,720 Speaker 1: review us wherever you have the power to do so, 1188 01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:38,880 Speaker 1: and make sure you have subscribed, and hey, make sure 1189 01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:41,280 Speaker 1: you've subscribed to Invention as well. We already talked about 1190 01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:44,240 Speaker 1: it once in the show, but invention pot dot com 1191 01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:45,919 Speaker 1: that's where you'll find it. But you can also find 1192 01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:49,880 Speaker 1: that podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Huge thanks as 1193 01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:53,640 Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producers Alex Williams and Tary Harrison. 1194 01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:55,840 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 1195 01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:58,440 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 1196 01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:00,480 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, just to a hello. You 1197 01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:04,240 Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 1198 01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:15,320 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a 1199 01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:18,120 Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. For more podcasts 1200 01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:21,080 Speaker 1: from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 1201 01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:31,760 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.