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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: People did age faster in those days in terms of

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Speaker 2: becoming adults, but they were not sophisticated enough to really

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Speaker 2: realize how much danger they were in.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold More Wicked and the co host

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Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled

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Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they

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Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true

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Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those

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Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold More

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Speaker 1: Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make,

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Speaker 1: good and bad. Dive into the stories behind the stories.

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Speaker 1: One of my most favorite blogs is called Murder by Gaslight.

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Speaker 1: It focuses on historical true crime right up my alley.

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Speaker 1: The writer behind it is Robert Wilhelm, and he's also

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Speaker 1: a non fiction author. He tells us the story of

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Speaker 1: Pearl Brian from his book So Far From Home. So

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Speaker 1: I am a huge fan of your blog, Murder by gaslight.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a fantastic I mean I've known about

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Speaker 1: it for years. How long have you been doing it?

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Speaker 2: I think it's about fourteen years. Two thousand and nine

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Speaker 2: is when I started.

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Speaker 1: Well, I have talked about it, you know. I have

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Speaker 1: a different show with Paul Holes called Buried Bones, where

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Speaker 1: we look at old cases through a twenty first century lens,

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Speaker 1: and I've used some of the cases that you have.

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Speaker 1: Of course, we do our own research, but I use

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Speaker 1: some of the cases. And I always say I love

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Speaker 1: this website because I consider myself pretty well versed in

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Speaker 1: crime and history, and you do an incredible job curating

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Speaker 1: really obscure, but I think thoughtful and impactful crimes through history.

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Speaker 1: I just want to talk about briefly before we get

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Speaker 1: into the book, because I love the site so much.

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Speaker 1: How do you find these stories? What do you do?

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Speaker 1: It just seems like you pull them out of a

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Speaker 1: magic hat or something. Ye know.

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Speaker 2: It started taking notes about two thousand and nine. Well,

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Speaker 2: one murder will refer to another, and it sort of

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Speaker 2: builds on itself. And after I finished with all all

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Speaker 2: of the major ones, you know, Lizzie Borden, ones like that,

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Speaker 2: it got a little bit harder to find, but there

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Speaker 2: are a lot of murder pamphlets online. It's, you know,

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Speaker 2: nineteenth century people writing about nineteenth century murders. And what's

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Speaker 2: good is most of them have pictures. But it adds

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Speaker 2: to the whole effect to have a photo or a

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Speaker 2: drawing or a painting of some kind.

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Speaker 1: Well, your stories I find to be very well written

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Speaker 1: and very reliable. We've used a couple of your cases

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Speaker 1: and I refer to them in the podcast, and the

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Speaker 1: researcher always comes back and says, we've added to the sources,

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Speaker 1: but he is spot on. So that is to me

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Speaker 1: the sign of a fantastic nonfiction author. And I, because

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Speaker 1: I'm in you know, of course, looped into your newsletter.

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Speaker 1: I have seen you send out, you know, stories about

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Speaker 1: the Pearl Brian book that you have, and that's what

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Speaker 1: we want to talk about. Why don't we start with

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Speaker 1: where we are in time, late eighteen hundreds and who

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Speaker 1: the victim is, because we always try to start with

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Speaker 1: the victim. So tell me about Pearl before all of

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Speaker 1: this terrible stuff happens.

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Speaker 2: The year was eighteen ninety six, and she was the

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Speaker 2: youngest daughter of a family of thirteen children. And she

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Speaker 2: was the baby of the family, the one that everyone pampered.

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Speaker 2: But she was bright and smart, well known in the community.

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Speaker 2: She was attending college, which was would be unusual for

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Speaker 2: Indiana farm girl at the time. She kept her own counsel.

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Speaker 2: She did not have a lot of close friends or boyfriends.

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Speaker 2: That she became pregnant, and no one knew it except

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Speaker 2: her cousin, who may or may not have been the father.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god. I know our audience can imagine what

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Speaker 1: pregnancy for someone who was unmarried would have been like

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Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds, but can you give us some context.

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Speaker 1: What a woman? What was she in her late teens

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Speaker 1: early twenties when this happened.

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Speaker 2: She was twenty two.

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Speaker 1: What would it have been like for an unmarried mother

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Speaker 1: at twenty two?

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Speaker 2: For her personal life, it would have been I think,

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Speaker 2: just devastating her uncle who was the father of the

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Speaker 2: cousin that may or may not have been the father. Oh.

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Speaker 2: As a minister, a high ranking minister in the Methodist church.

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Speaker 2: According to the statements made by her cousin and by

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Speaker 2: Scott Jackson, who was later accused, she was anxious to

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Speaker 2: have an abortion just to put an end to her

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Speaker 2: problem because she had no other choice. She wasn't whoever

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Speaker 2: it was was not going to marry her.

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Speaker 1: So she is twenty two. Had she completed college by

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Speaker 1: the time she had gotten pregnant.

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Speaker 2: I think she was still in college, but the college

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Speaker 2: was in her hometown, DePaul University.

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Speaker 1: And what do we know about the relationship between Pearl

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Speaker 1: and her cousin. Are we saying this was a consensual

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Speaker 1: relationship or is it unclear?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. He was a bragger and he would

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Speaker 2: talk to his friends about you know how he had

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Speaker 2: a soft snap with Pearl. He could tell these tales

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Speaker 2: about going to our house when her parents went home

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Speaker 2: and going to her bedroom and things like that. And

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Speaker 2: then when she was pregnant, he sent to Cincinnati to

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Speaker 2: find drugs to end the pregnancy. But he told his

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Speaker 2: friends about it and said that he was responsible. He

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Speaker 2: later denied that he told them. His name was Will Wood.

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Speaker 1: So Will is saying that this is a consensual relationship.

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Speaker 2: He never admitted it though, he.

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Speaker 1: Never admitted it right, but he was bragging about it.

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Speaker 2: He was bragging about it beforehand.

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Speaker 1: Yet when he was bragging, was he bragging that it

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Speaker 1: was a boyfriend girlfriend kind of thing or I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess we don't have a real sense for that.

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Speaker 2: It would just be the equivalent of casual sex.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you know for a context, also in the late

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, would that have been a consensual relationship? Would

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Speaker 1: that have been okay between husins? Would that have been

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Speaker 1: encouraged or discouraged in their community in Indiana?

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Speaker 2: It would have been discouraged cousins, and it would have

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Speaker 2: been discouraged. Premarial sex at all all hypothetical because he

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Speaker 2: never admit to doing it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So she's pregnant and she has made it

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Speaker 1: clear to multiple people that she'd like to terminate the pregnancy.

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Just to will Wood and to Scott Jackson who was

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Speaker 2: in Cincinnati at the time and would have been arranging

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Speaker 2: the abortion.

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Speaker 1: Do we believe that she wanted that or what do

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Speaker 1: you think?

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Speaker 2: I think she did want it, And she traveled to

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Speaker 2: Cincinnati alone, which would have been a little bit of

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Speaker 2: an adventure. She had been to Indianapolis once for her

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Speaker 2: school trip. That was like the farthest she had ever traveled,

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Speaker 2: and now she's going to Cincinnati alone. Her parents would

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Speaker 2: later say she wasn't gone for an abortion. She was

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Speaker 2: gone to convince him to marry her.

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Speaker 1: So is this in eighteen ninety six, when she's pregnant

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Speaker 1: and she is going to Cincinnati for an abortion? For

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Speaker 1: all we know, Yes, Okay, will has arranged this. Will

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Speaker 1: Woods has arranged this.

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Speaker 2: Her cousin right with Scott Jackson, who had been in

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Speaker 2: Greencastle the summer before. He admitted to going out with

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Speaker 2: Pearl a couple of times, but did not consider her

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Speaker 2: his girlfriend or you know, a close relationship. It was

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Speaker 2: just friends and they did write letters back and forth

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Speaker 2: before all of this happened. According to his statement, will

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Speaker 2: Wood wrote to him and said, Pearl's pregnant and we

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Speaker 2: need to do something. And he sent him the prescriptions.

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Speaker 2: They didn't work. And then he said, send her down

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Speaker 2: here and we have an abortion. Have an operation. His roommate,

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Speaker 2: Alonzo Walling, apparently had connections who knew how to have

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Speaker 2: an abortion in the region. People to go to.

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Speaker 1: Who is this guy? They both of these guys. Are

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Speaker 1: they in the medical field at all? And this is

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Speaker 1: Cincinnati versus Indiana.

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Speaker 2: They were both dental students at the Ohio Dental College

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Speaker 2: in Cincinnati. They had met each other at the Indiana

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Speaker 2: School of dentistry, which a year earlier, and Scott Jackson

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Speaker 2: had to leave because he was arrested in the brothel

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Speaker 2: on New Year's Eve for drunkenness, and he convinced his

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Speaker 2: mother to send him back to school, but Cincinnati this time,

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Speaker 2: and they just happened to run each into each other

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Speaker 2: again and took a room together at a roominghouse in

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Speaker 2: a sort of city district of Cincinnati.

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Speaker 1: So Pearl goes via train. Is that right to Cincinnati

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Speaker 1: from Indiana?

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Speaker 2: That's right?

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Speaker 1: Is she by herself? She is by herself, and her

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Speaker 1: parents are saying that she's hoping to get married, and

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Speaker 1: that's what this trip is about. And that is not

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Speaker 1: what other people are saying. They're saying she's going for

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Speaker 1: an abortion.

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Speaker 2: At this point, she told her parents she's going to

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Speaker 2: visit a friend in Indianapolis, an old school friend, and

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Speaker 2: she didn't tell them she was even going to Cincinnati.

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Speaker 2: So at this point they don't know she's pregnant.

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Speaker 1: She arrives in Cincinnati, and do these two men were

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Speaker 1: talking about Alonzo and Scott, the two dental students, do

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Speaker 1: they meet her at the train station.

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Speaker 2: No, they were supposed to meet her, but will Wood

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Speaker 2: told him she was coming to Cincinnati on Monday, but

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Speaker 2: they didn't say what train line, what time. Scott Jackson

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Speaker 2: went to one depot, Lonza Walling went to the other depot.

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Speaker 2: Neither of them saw. So she is all alone again

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Speaker 2: in a strange city, and the cab driver takes her

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Speaker 2: to a hotel, a reasonably christ hotel she can stay.

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Speaker 2: Next day she gets in touch with Scott Jackson at

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Speaker 2: his college, you know. He takes her out and she

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Speaker 2: spends two nights at that hotel. Then on Wednesday, he says,

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Speaker 2: we're going to take you where the abortion is going

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Speaker 2: to take place. In his story, Alonzo Walling took her

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Speaker 2: away to the abortion and he had no idea where

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Speaker 2: or when it was going to take place. Walling says,

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Speaker 2: last time he saw her it was with Jackson, and

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Speaker 2: he never saw her again after Wednesday, but he didn't

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Speaker 2: have anything to do with it, and that's the story

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Speaker 2: they stuck with for a year.

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Speaker 1: So essentially, according to Pearl Bryan's family, she vanishes. She's

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Speaker 1: supposed to go to Indianapolis to meet a friend she

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Speaker 1: we know, actually goes to Cincinnati and then she is

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Speaker 1: not heard or seen from until when.

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Speaker 2: The body was discovered on Saturday of that same week,

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Speaker 2: and they were very fortunate they were able to identify

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Speaker 2: it within another week. And that's the first they knew.

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Speaker 2: The parents knew anything about where she was when the

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Speaker 2: police came to their door and said, we think your

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Speaker 2: daughter was murdered Kentucky and we've got a bag of

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Speaker 2: her clothing, and they identified the clothing as hers.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, how did she end up in Kentucky?

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Speaker 1: How did that happen?

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Speaker 2: It was in the town of Newport, Kentucky, which is

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Speaker 2: right across the Ohio River from Cincinnati, and it was

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Speaker 2: about five miles south of the river, in a clearing

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Speaker 2: in the woods. Unfortunately for the police, a young boy

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Speaker 2: on his way to work that Saturday morning took a

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Speaker 2: shortcut through the woods, came to the clearing and found

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Speaker 2: the decapitated body, and then he ran and told his

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Speaker 2: boss and that he called the sheriff that it was chaos.

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Speaker 2: Reporters arrived first. Oh, of course, contaminated the scene, but they,

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Speaker 2: you know, they didn't have a lot of forensic to

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Speaker 2: work with.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, this is February in Kentucky, right when she's discovered.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine this is not freezing cold. I wonder

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Speaker 1: what that discovery must have been like. I guess she

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Speaker 1: wasn't covered with snow or anything.

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Speaker 2: It had rained the night before, okay, so everything was wet,

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Speaker 2: but it wasn't freezing.

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Speaker 1: So a headless corpse, and I'm assuming at some point

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Speaker 1: do they find the head.

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Speaker 2: I never find that, Oh gosh. So they didn't know

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Speaker 2: how they were going to identify her. They started with

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Speaker 2: assuming that Fort Thomas, which is the army for it

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Speaker 2: in the town, was within walking distance of the place

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Speaker 2: where she was found dead. So police assumed that it

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Speaker 2: was a soldier who did it before, and of course

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Speaker 2: denied that they actually had the body on display and

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Speaker 2: anyone could come in and see. And there were some

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Speaker 2: false identifications. She had a distinctive foot in that the

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Speaker 2: toes were connected to each other by a web of skin,

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Speaker 2: and that was how they one way they were able

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Speaker 2: to eliminate false identifications and also proved to her parents

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Speaker 2: that yes, this was your daughter.

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Speaker 1: Okay. I had read that there was suspicion that she

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Speaker 1: might have been a sex worker, and then that was dispelled, right,

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Speaker 1: And you also said that she has a distinctive, you know,

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Speaker 1: physical feature, So I still don't know in eighteen ninety six,

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Speaker 1: how does that information get from Kentucky to how many

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Speaker 1: miles away is her family in Indiana? That seems like

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Speaker 1: isn't a long way?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it took all day by train?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how does that happen?

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Speaker 2: One of the people that came to look at the

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Speaker 2: body was a shoe dealer named Lewis Pook, and he

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Speaker 2: could recognize that the boot she wore was distinctive and expensive,

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Speaker 2: but a very small foot. In fact, it was a

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Speaker 2: size three, but it was padded with moss, so her

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Speaker 2: foot was even smaller than that. Wow, And there were

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Speaker 2: markings on the boot that he could identify as the

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Speaker 2: manufacturer's mark. Contacted the factory. They directed him to a

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Speaker 2: shoe store in Greencastle, and that's when they thought, well,

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Speaker 2: she must have been from there. They also had another clue,

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Speaker 2: someone who had left their husband in Greencastle and gone

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Speaker 2: off with the soldier for it, so I thought maybe

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Speaker 2: it was her. So anyway, they had two reasons to

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Speaker 2: go to Greencastle. But when they get there, the shoe

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Speaker 2: store books are all arranged by name rather than date,

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Speaker 2: and then they had to just go down the list

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Speaker 2: look for the any shoes sole that were from that

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Speaker 2: shipment and in that size, and that took all day.

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Speaker 2: In the meantime, one of the reporters went to the

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Speaker 2: telegraph office to send the information back to his newspaper,

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Speaker 2: and the manager of the telegraph office said, you know,

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Speaker 2: I think it might be Pearlbrian because her brother sent

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Speaker 2: a telegram to someone in Indianapolis saying asking if his

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Speaker 2: sister had arrived safely, and the response was she hasn't

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Speaker 2: arrived and we're not expecting her. Also that he was

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Speaker 2: a friend of Will Woods and had heard him talk about,

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Speaker 2: you know, abortion and things like that, and he just

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Speaker 2: put two and two together and said, maybe that's pear Olbrian.

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Speaker 2: So they went back to the shoe store and said,

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Speaker 2: let's see some records for Pearlbrian, and there were the

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Speaker 2: shoes that she had purchased that last September, and they

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Speaker 2: went to the family and they identified the clothing. But

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Speaker 2: it was very fortunate the time that first of all,

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Speaker 2: that they found the body at all the day after

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Speaker 2: the murder, because it could have been once yeah. And

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Speaker 2: then second that the shoe dealer was able to pinpoint

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Speaker 2: the store. And then the third was that the telegraph

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Speaker 2: manager could give them her name.

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Speaker 1: That is all a stroke I mean, stroke of I

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Speaker 1: want to say stroke of luck. But it really that

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Speaker 1: was smart. All of that was very smart. Paul Hole's

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Speaker 1: an eye on Barry Bones often talked about it's just

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Speaker 1: like a miracle sometimes when they solve crimes, and this

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Speaker 1: was just good old fashioned detective work to be able

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Speaker 1: to identify who. I'm sure the killer or killers did

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Speaker 1: not know that her shoes and her feet would be

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Speaker 1: able to identify her. Obviously, they cut off her head

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Speaker 1: to prevent identification even though she was, you know, more

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Speaker 1: than a state away. Could they find out from her

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Speaker 1: body what her cause of death was? I know she's

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Speaker 1: missing her head.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no other marks. There were some defensive marks

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Speaker 2: on her hands. Okay, Well there were two two ideas.

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Speaker 2: Ones that she was stabbed in the throat or in

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Speaker 2: the head before the head was cut off, and the

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Speaker 2: other was that her head was severed while she was alive.

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, why do they think that before?

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Speaker 2: I think because there was so much blood in the

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Speaker 2: leaves above the body, the artery had spurret it. Then

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Speaker 2: there was you know, when they get to the trial,

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Speaker 2: there's some controversy. Was there enough blood to account for

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Speaker 2: a severed head, and then they had an expert witness

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Speaker 2: testify for the fact that if they had severed the

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Speaker 2: headwall alive, it would have taken ten minutes and it

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Speaker 2: would have been somewhat too much blood to continue after

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Speaker 2: a certain point, But it was still the most common theory.

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Speaker 1: I couched this all the time by saying, just because

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Speaker 1: coroners in the eighteen hundred say no signs of sexual

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Speaker 1: assault does not mean there was no sexual assault. But

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Speaker 1: did they find any obvious signs of sexual assault?

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Speaker 2: No, they didn't, okay. In fact, they didn't know she

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Speaker 2: was pregnant until the autopsy. Five months pregnant.

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Speaker 1: Five months pregnant, Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 2: I don't think the abortion drugs would have worked anyway.

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Speaker 1: So they identify her, and I can really only imagine

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Speaker 1: her family's reaction to all of this. Did they know

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Speaker 1: she was pregnant or No?

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Speaker 2: No, they didn't. The only one who knew was will.

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Speaker 3: Wood, so they're devastated. Obviously they were able to give

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Speaker 3: them the two names. One was will Wood and the

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Speaker 3: other was Scott Jackson. Will Wood was the one who

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Speaker 3: had introduced Pearl to Scott Jackson, and in the parents. Mind,

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Speaker 3: he was as guilty as even if he wasn't the

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Speaker 3: killer or the father of the baby. But he had

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Speaker 3: gone to South Bend, Indiana to visit a relative at

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Speaker 3: the same time, and Scott Jackson was in Cincinnati. So

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Speaker 3: the detectives and the sheriff went on to Indianapolis to

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Speaker 3: arrest will Wood, and then back in Cincinnati they arrested

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Speaker 3: Scott Jackson, and then he made an off, sort of

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Speaker 3: a casual remark to a reporter that this roommate Alonzo

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Speaker 3: Walling might be involved as well. So the reporter went

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Speaker 3: out and arrested Walling, brought him back to the police station,

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Speaker 3: and they booked him. It's interesting that none of these

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Speaker 3: actions involved the police. The investigation was the shoe.

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Speaker 1: Store telegraph operator. Well, now it's a good time to

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Speaker 1: talk about citizens arrests. That you were allowed to do that.

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Speaker 1: I think you had to get it, didn't You have

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Speaker 1: to get a warrant from a judge and then you

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Speaker 1: could go out or just anybody could slap cups on you.

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Speaker 2: As far as I know, you didn't have to. I

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Speaker 2: think you had to back it up once you brought

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Speaker 2: them in. Yeah, it was something that private detectives would

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Speaker 2: do at the time, but it was often they've stolen

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Speaker 2: something and you get a private detective arrest the guy

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Speaker 2: and said they make a deal to get the stolen

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Speaker 2: item back.

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Speaker 1: My first season, one of the other shows tenfold more

357
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Speaker 1: wicked I have. We're dealing with a guy who had

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Speaker 1: an arrest war and in eighteen forty three a family

359
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,560
Speaker 1: member needed to catch him. He was on the run

360
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Speaker 1: for killing his wife and his child, and the family

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Speaker 1: member had to go to a judge and secure a warrant.

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Speaker 1: But the judges said, go get him and bring him back.

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Speaker 1: You know, we'll make sure that this guy gets thrown

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Speaker 1: in jail. So the family member went out and finally

365
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Speaker 1: had to get him. But it was very confusing. It

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Speaker 1: just seemed very haphazard. Who could arrest too for what reason?

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Speaker 2: The problem comes in when it's crossing state lines, because

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Speaker 2: they were much more severe about that than we are now. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes it'd be just kidnapping.

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Speaker 1: And you're talking about three different areas here. So she's

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Speaker 1: found in Kentucky, the guys are from Cincinnati, and she's

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Speaker 1: from Indiana. So yeah, it sounds like a jurisdictional mess.

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Speaker 1: I bet Okay, So we have identified Pearl, and we

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Speaker 1: know that she was connected to Scott Jackson and her

375
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Speaker 1: cousin will Wood. We have no idea who the father was.

376
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Speaker 1: It sounded like she might have been involved either involuntarily

377
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Speaker 1: or voluntary with either of these men, but were not

378
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Speaker 1: sure and I'm assuming they never established, you know, the father,

379
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Speaker 1: who the father was of the baby.

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Speaker 2: Will Wood of course said it was Scott Jackson. Yeah,

381
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Speaker 2: Jackson said it was will Wood. Alonza Walling. The roommates

382
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Speaker 2: said they didn't know which it was, which was why

383
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Speaker 2: they just let's have an abortion. We don't know whose

384
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Speaker 2: baby this is.

385
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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Okay, So now we have three people

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Speaker 1: under arrest. Right, We've got will Wood, the cousin, We've

387
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Speaker 1: got Scott Jackson, and then we got the roommate who

388
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Speaker 1: was also a dental student, Alonzo Walling. Are all three

389
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Speaker 1: of them under arrest and dragged to where Kentucky or Indiana?

390
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Speaker 2: They're in Cincinnati.

391
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Speaker 1: Okay, So they stay in Ohio and they're arrested.

392
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Speaker 2: Will Wood was brought by train to Cincinnati and he

393
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Speaker 2: was told he was just going to be a witness,

394
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Speaker 2: but they had already had a warrant for his arrest

395
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Speaker 2: in Cincinnati, and when he's talking about abortion, they said, okay,

396
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Speaker 2: we have enough to indict this guy. We're going to

397
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Speaker 2: arrest him. And that caused some problems because the sheriff

398
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,080
Speaker 2: in Kentucky had promised him he wouldn't be arrested. But

399
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Speaker 2: this is Cincinnati. They don't care what the sheriff said

400
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,320
Speaker 2: to him. And they had had a warrant from a

401
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,160
Speaker 2: judge saying arrested some of it. But the judge said,

402
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,159
Speaker 2: book him and then leave him in the custody of

403
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,800
Speaker 2: his father if he promises to come back and testify it,

404
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:16,560
Speaker 2: because he had to go on trial too for the

405
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,160
Speaker 2: flanned abortion. But I don't know if they had really

406
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Speaker 2: enough evidence for that beyond his own statements.

407
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,439
Speaker 1: So the three of them are arrested, And is this

408
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,439
Speaker 1: all first degree murderer what they're charged with?

409
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,400
Speaker 2: Jackson and Walling would charge with first degree murderer.

410
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,760
Speaker 1: Okay, and this would have, of course resulted in a hanging.

411
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,760
Speaker 1: I'm assuming yes. What is the trail that detectives or

412
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:42,520
Speaker 1: the prosecutors can use to prove this because isn't this

413
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,600
Speaker 1: just sort of right now? These men saying, well, I

414
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 1: might have slept with her. I might have not I

415
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 1: don't know anything about an abortion right, and this is

416
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Speaker 1: all hearsay coming from wheal Wood, and that's it.

417
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Speaker 2: What they really hoped was that they questioned Jackson and

418
00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,359
Speaker 2: Walling separately and then one would convict the other one

419
00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,359
Speaker 2: would bring chick just against the other. But they stuck

420
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,960
Speaker 2: to their stories. There were some anger between the two

421
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:06,840
Speaker 2: of them, but both of them just said, we didn't

422
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,000
Speaker 2: see her after Wednesday, and we don't know what happened

423
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,400
Speaker 2: to her. You know. Jackson said I think Walling took her,

424
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:13,439
Speaker 2: and Walling would say I think Jackson took her, but

425
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 2: I don't know. But the police were sure that it

426
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 2: was Scott Jackson, probably with Walling's help. They had eyewitnesses

427
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,639
Speaker 2: at a saloon near their house. The three of them

428
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,879
Speaker 2: were seen getting into a Surrey, a horse drawn vehicle,

429
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,160
Speaker 2: near the bar, and they said, okay, we don't care

430
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,879
Speaker 2: what happened earlier in the week. We know on Friday

431
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,000
Speaker 2: night she got into this cab with Jackson and Walling,

432
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,040
Speaker 2: so they really wanted to get the driver of the cab.

433
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,600
Speaker 2: In the meantime, the newspapers are going off on their own.

434
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,760
Speaker 2: There was a woman in Indianapolis, who claimed she knew

435
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,439
Speaker 2: Pearl from the past, met her at the train station

436
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,959
Speaker 2: in Indianapolis and gave her advice on boarding the baby,

437
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,760
Speaker 2: and later she claimed she actually gave her an abortion

438
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,239
Speaker 2: in Indianapolis, and then she went back to Cincinnati and

439
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,880
Speaker 2: died in Scott Jackson's apartment. At first they believed her,

440
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 2: but you know, by the second day in prison, her

441
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,800
Speaker 2: stories became too wild and they said, no, his contradictor,

442
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,800
Speaker 2: she didn't do anything. But then there was another woman

443
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 2: in Cincinnati who was Walling's girlfriend, claimed that Scott Jackson

444
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 2: had told her that he had a girl pregnant in

445
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 2: Greencastle and was going to kill her when she came

446
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,399
Speaker 2: to town. And then he sent her letters saying, you know,

447
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 2: I didn't really mean that, but she ended up dying

448
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 2: in my apartment. That was what she told her reporter.

449
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 2: The next day, she talked to the police and recanted

450
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 2: the story. She said she was drunk, but she told him.

451
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,760
Speaker 1: That, well, is she doing that to protect her boyfriend,

452
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 1: to protect Alonzo Walling?

453
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:40,200
Speaker 2: That's what I think.

454
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So when you've got these contradictory stories, and

455
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,240
Speaker 1: I'm assuming will Woods said, I put her on a

456
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,199
Speaker 1: train and that's the last thing I know is that

457
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 1: it right.

458
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 2: In fact, he did not even driving her to the

459
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 2: train station, even though her parents saw her get into

460
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:55,639
Speaker 2: his carriage.

461
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 1: With these two men, they have contradictory stories. Do we

462
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: have any physical evidence anywhere? Is their blood? Are their tools?

463
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,880
Speaker 1: What about the crime scene? What do they think actually happened?

464
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:08,639
Speaker 1: Moving forward?

465
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 2: They had her clothing because she was she was staying

466
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,159
Speaker 2: with Jackson. They were dumping her clothes down sewers and

467
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,120
Speaker 2: over the bridge to hide the evidence. But very little

468
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 2: physical evidence. It was all dearsaying pretty much.

469
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,719
Speaker 1: They could not find blood. There was nothing where they

470
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 1: could even identify where this happened.

471
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,919
Speaker 2: There was a pair of pants in Walling's locker that

472
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,719
Speaker 2: had mud similar to the scene, but they were Jackson's pants.

473
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 1: And it doesn't even matter, right, that's nothing, Yeah, it

474
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 1: is nothing. How is Pearl framed in eighteen ninety six newspapers?

475
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,639
Speaker 1: This is a woman who is pregnant, she's unweed, she's

476
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 1: going for supposed to and legally abortion. So are they

477
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,360
Speaker 1: framing her as a victim or are they blaming her?

478
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 1: What are they saying?

479
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:08,479
Speaker 2: Definitely a victim?

480
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 1: Okay, good?

481
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 2: And she was considered a very nice, proper girl. Her

482
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 2: girlfriends from school from high school states things like she

483
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 2: was too agreeable, too easy to persuade. They were sort

484
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:20,400
Speaker 2: of blaming her innocence.

485
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 1: So they are sort of framing her as almost like

486
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 1: a martyr in the newspapers at this point. And how

487
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 1: are they framing Scott Jackson and Alonzo Walling just as

488
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: horrible predators with you know, degrees in medicine, who are

489
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 1: perfectly capable of not only performing abortions, taking advantage of

490
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: young women and then killing them.

491
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 2: They were as evil as possible.

492
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 1: What is specifically tying either of these two guys to her,

493
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 1: you know, being murdered and beheaded? Is there anything besides

494
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: just this story?

495
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 2: They know she came to Cincinnati and was seen in

496
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 2: Jackson's company several times. Okay, but again no physical evidence. Okay,

497
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 2: So how does the trial unfold? Are they on trial

498
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 2: at the same time, these two men or is it separate?

499
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 2: They were separated, and that was sort of an important distinction.

500
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: I bet, as it usually is who goes first. Yeah,

501
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 1: the second person usually testifies against the first person, screws

502
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: them over, and then the other guy gets a light

503
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 1: scence or no sentence at all.

504
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 2: Didn't happen this time though, because they stuck to their stories.

505
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,400
Speaker 2: Some moderation, but Jackson was tried first, and that's really

506
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 2: the one that everyone wanted to see.

507
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 1: Hang, so what happens? Does he ever take the stand?

508
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 2: He did take the stand. In fact, it was a

509
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 2: couple of unusual things about that. The defense attorney had

510
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 2: no opening statement. He just put Jackson on the stand

511
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 2: and he testified all day, and that the paper had

512
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 2: almost the whole thing verbat him. You know his history,

513
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 2: He had the trouble he had gotten into in New Jersey.

514
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 2: He was a clerk to the Pennsylvania Railroad and had

515
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 2: been involved in robbing money from the till and then

516
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 2: again in Indianapolis when he was arrested for drunkenness in

517
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 2: a brothel on New Year's Eve. But they brought all

518
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 2: that stuff out. The point where the prosecuting attorney is saying,

519
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 2: is this drug testimony or cross examination? Because it seemed

520
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 2: like he was indicting himself. Yeah, and then he also

521
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 2: talked about having sex with.

522
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 1: Pearl, and nobody can prove who the father of this

523
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 1: baby was to begin with. But still he denies having

524
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 1: to do anything with her murder and just points to Alonzo. Right,

525
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 1: is Alonzo testifying at all in Scott's trial?

526
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 2: No, he didn't testify.

527
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 1: Wow, So we have Scott Jackson who's been on the

528
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: stand testifying and he's not saying really that many great things.

529
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: Does anybody else testify in this case?

530
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 2: Well, a lot of people for the prosecution testified, basically

531
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 2: identifying the clothes. Her mother identified the clothes, her sister

532
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 2: identified her clothes. The merchants who sold the clothes identified them.

533
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 2: You know, because there was no head, you can't just

534
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 2: point to it and say, yes, this is Pearl Brian.

535
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 2: They had to really drive home that, yes, this dead

536
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 2: body without a head is Pearl Brian. Someone came in

537
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 2: and claimed to be the driver and he's his testimon

538
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 2: money was very important.

539
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: This is the driver. Remind me of that again.

540
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 2: Who the driver was supposedly took the three of them

541
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 2: from Cincinnati to the murder scene, and he had a

542
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 2: very detailed description of how that went. With Scott Jackson

543
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,239
Speaker 2: and pro Brian in the back of the carriage and

544
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 2: he's driving with Alonza Walling holding a pistol to his head.

545
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Well, tell me about that story. So

546
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: this guy gets on the stand he says, what, I

547
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 1: picked these three people up, two men and one woman,

548
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 1: and the man and the woman get in the cab

549
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: and the other guy sits up on the rumble seat

550
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: with me.

551
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. When he first brought the story to the police,

552
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 2: that was wonderful for them. Now we have an unbroken

553
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 2: chain of circumstantial evidence and eyewitness evidence as well, from

554
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 2: the saloon where they were last scene to the place

555
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 2: where she was murdered. But this guy, who was kind

556
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 2: of dicey, had been in trouble in Springfield, Ohio, had

557
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 2: accused someone of robbing from him and was not long

558
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 2: after this indicted for perjury in that case.

559
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: Oh gosh.

560
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 2: The police were totally convinced that this was true, and

561
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 2: the newspapers were scott to go, and sometimes lawmen from

562
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 2: other towns were skeptical as well, and they actually re

563
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 2: enacted the route one night before the trial, where he

564
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 2: would take the cab the same route he had taken

565
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 2: it before, followed by the police and several newspaper carriages.

566
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 2: But it was not a direct route. It was a

567
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 2: very strange route. But he did end up there, so

568
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 2: there was still a lot of doubt about this, but

569
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 2: he was the most important of the witnesses.

570
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: So is he saying that the murder scene was in

571
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: the woods where the boy found the headless body.

572
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 2: Yes, they stopped at the road, climbed over the fence.

573
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 2: He said that Pearl looked like she was drugged at

574
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 2: the time.

575
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 1: Were there signs that someone had performed an abortion on

576
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 1: her or attempted to?

577
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 2: According to the postmodem doctors, there was no attempt.

578
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: Huh. What does the prosecutor think actually happened? Both men

579
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: were involved. Do they think that this was planned from

580
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: the start or was there sort of a discussion where

581
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: Pearls said I don't think I want to do this

582
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: anymore kind of thing and they snapped.

583
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 2: They think that she came down for the abortion, or

584
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 2: maybe to ask him to marry her, and he decided

585
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: the way out was to kill her. They drove across

586
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: the river look out of the woods and cut off

587
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 2: her head. The early indictment actually said Walling held her

588
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 2: down while Jackson cut off her head.

589
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: And who was assuming that? How are we placing Walling

590
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: aside from this sketchy cab driver. How else are we

591
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 1: placing Walling at the scene at all.

592
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 2: Well, he was seen getting into the cab okay. Also,

593
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 2: the driver testified that Walling was there, but he had

594
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 2: no connection at all to Pearl, had only met her

595
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 2: one time. Yeah, they had eventually changed the indictment saying

596
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 2: that one of them held her down and one of

597
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: them got the head off, because there was really no

598
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: way to know who actually did the cutting, but because

599
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 2: of Jackson's connection to Pearl, it was assumed it was her.

600
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: But are Jackson and Walling what are they saying about

601
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: the I'm assuming reliable witnesses who say we saw these

602
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: guys get into a cab with a woman. Are they denying?

603
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: Are they saying it wasn't us?

604
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: The bar people are saying it was Friday night and

605
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 2: Jackson saying no, Tuesday night, which was the last night

606
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: he had seen her, and Walling said the same thing.

607
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 2: Interesting that Friday afternoon, Scott Jackson had shaved his beard off.

608
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 2: He'd been to the barbershop and the barber suggested shave

609
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 2: it and he did so he's clean shaven for the

610
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: first time since he came to Cincinnati. At the bar

611
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 2: they said, no, he looked the same as every other night.

612
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 2: So it makes a question whether they were right about

613
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 2: the day or not.

614
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: Is there anyone else significant who takes the stand in

615
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: Scott Jackson's trial.

616
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: His landlady took the stand to say that, to her knowledge,

617
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 2: they were both in their room Friday night.

618
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: What really? So is she their alibi? Are they saying

619
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: that's what was happening was they were in their room?

620
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 2: Yeah?

621
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: What a mess, Robert, this story? Okay? So ultimately, is

622
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: there anyone else that we need to talk about before

623
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: we find out what happens with Scott?

624
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 2: One other thing that should be mentioned. The driver, whose

625
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 2: name was also Jackson, was the leader of they were

626
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 2: called the Cold Ball Guards. It was a drill team

627
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 2: black men who would do army drills in the park

628
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 2: with the intention someday joining the state militia. And he said, yeah,

629
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 2: we were drilling that night and then I left. Walling

630
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:08,959
Speaker 2: came by and said, who wants to make five dollars

631
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: to drive this cab to Kentucky. So the other Jackson

632
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: took the job. But Scott Jackson's attorney deposed the members

633
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 2: of the cauld War Guard and they all said, no,

634
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,479
Speaker 2: we didn't drill that night because we had a private

635
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: meeting that we were court martialing one of our members.

636
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 2: There's say twelve people with sworn depositions saying no, we

637
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 2: didn't drill that night. When it comes to his trial,

638
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 2: the prosecution brings them in one by one, they all testified,

639
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 2: yes we did. They said that they signed the depositions,

640
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: and they quitted perjury one way or the other. Well, okay,

641
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: that's another thing that the police had the ability to say,

642
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 2: we want you to go and testify in Kentucky, because

643
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 2: there's no way that you could be forced to do

644
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 2: that across state lines. So they probably threatened these people.

645
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: It's just my guess what did the police want them

646
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: to say that they were perjuring? Just so that I'm

647
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 1: totally clear, these.

648
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 2: Yes we did drill that night, and that's the extent

649
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 2: of it. I mean, but it was in either or

650
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 2: a situation if they didn't drill that night. The basis

651
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 2: of Jackson's testimony is faulse Yeah.

652
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: Are we thinking at this point, based on all of

653
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: this contradictory evidence, is Scott Jackson being reil roaded or no?

654
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: For this murder?

655
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 2: I think in terms of first degree murder probably yes.

656
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 2: I think if they said said manslaughter they probably could

657
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 2: have convicted him. I think in Scott Jackson's mind he said, well,

658
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: we didn't commit first degree murders, so let's not plead

659
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 2: guilty to anything and we'll just be acquitted. Sort of

660
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 2: goes back to the fact these people are all very young.

661
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 2: He was twenty six, Walling.

662
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: Was nineteen, Pearl was twenty two.

663
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 2: I mean, people did age faster in those days in

664
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 2: terms of becoming adults, but they were not sophisticated enough

665
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 2: to really realize how much danger they were in. If

666
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 2: they had said, yes, she died from an abortion, they

667
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 2: would have gone to jail for the abortion instead of

668
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: first degree murder.

669
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: So everything closes out. There's contradictory stuff, but it looks

670
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 1: like the prosecutor's case seems to be compelling. And Jackson

671
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: did himself no favors as usual by taking the stand.

672
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: Most defendants don't do themselves any favors and sort of

673
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: incriminates himself. And what ultimately does the jury of all men,

674
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: I presume.

675
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 2: Say they found him guilty murder?

676
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: Is this hanging?

677
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 2: Yes?

678
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: So he is convicted in what mid eighteen ninety six, right?

679
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: It may I believe Walling's trial was right after and

680
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 2: it was almost exactly the same. In fact, they sort

681
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: of there are some things that they sort of fine

682
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: tuned a little bit. But he was convicted as well.

683
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: So these men are both convicted, both sentenced to hang,

684
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: and both continue to deny it. They both say the

685
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: other person really did it, but they're not giving any

686
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: more context to the other person. Okay.

687
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 2: They both appealed and the appeals were denied. It's been

688
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 2: almost a year since the convictions. They're preparing to be hanged.

689
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: Effect a couple of days before the hanging. That's why

690
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,479
Speaker 2: they decided to confess that they together with a doctor

691
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 2: in Bellevue, Kentucky, just right next to Newport. They took

692
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 2: us there for the abortion, and that's when she died

693
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: from the drugs. And the doctor said, we can't leave

694
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 2: her here. We've got to do something. We got to

695
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 2: dump her, and they take her to this spot. And

696
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 2: that's another interesting thing is there's no way for Jackson

697
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 2: wanting to know that this spot existed, but it was

698
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 2: known to the people at the fort. They would go

699
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 2: bring their dates there sometimes. Anyway, the doctor takes them

700
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 2: there and the doctor cuts her head off.

701
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: This is what they say, right.

702
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 2: That's what they say in two separate confessions. However, they're

703
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: sitting in the same room.

704
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: Why that doesn't make any sense. Why are they after

705
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: a year and an appeal has been denied. Why is

706
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: this all of a sudden coming up in eighteen ninety

707
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: seven to save them from the gallows?

708
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 2: Hopefully, if nothing else, maybe have more investigation. Because they

709
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 2: mentioned the doctor. They mentioned the druggist that supplied the medicine.

710
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: Whilst the confessions became public, the druggist says, oh, yeah,

711
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 2: they came in that night and bought some air gut.

712
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 2: They wanted whiskey as well, but couldn't sell them the whisky,

713
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: so we had to mix it with something.

714
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: Did they not do a toxic coology report on her,

715
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: which would have been something they could have done in

716
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: eighteen ninety six. Did they not test her blood for anything?

717
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 2: Not that I know of.

718
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: Well, so tell me what the combination of drugs are.

719
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: You've got Jackson and Wallings sitting next to each other

720
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: in the police station, are in jail, and they're saying, Okay,

721
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: we have this story. We don't want to die at

722
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: the gallows. Here's what actually happened. We took pearl to

723
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: a doctor. He gave her this mixture of drugs. What

724
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: was the mixture that turned out to be from their

725
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: point of view, deadly.

726
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 2: They didn't really know. They said that the doctor injected

727
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 2: her with a clear liquid. They had found cocaine in

728
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 2: the stomach, and which was common for dental students because

729
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 2: they use it for anesthetic. The drugists said they bought

730
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 2: airgun and whiskey. Assuming this is true. Whatever it was,

731
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,800
Speaker 2: it was the mixture of the drugs that got her.

732
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 1: So the cocaine would have been kind of numbing.

733
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: Someone else have mentioned chloroform alone. If you overdose, you

734
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 2: could overdose on.

735
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: So the doctor's real, this guy's real, is he denying?

736
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 2: Yeah? He did. There were rumors early on about this.

737
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 2: He was sort of a nervous character and we'd talk

738
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 2: to himself in the backyard and said, you know, maybe

739
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 2: he did it. I kind of thing. But it was

740
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 2: reported in the newspaper, so it's possible that Jackson and

741
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 2: Walling said, you know, this guy's already on the on

742
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 2: the list, let's accuse him. It was at the insane

743
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 2: asylum and the confessions come out and the doctors say

744
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 2: declared him cured so he could go back and defend himself.

745
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:24,919
Speaker 1: Oh god.

746
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 2: But then the family denied it. But the drug is

747
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 2: stuck to his story, saying that no, that they sent

748
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 2: me a prescription and I filled it.

749
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: Okay, So this doctor got a prescription for iergot so

750
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 1: he wanted a prescription. But if this is somebody who

751
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: performs abortions, then this would not have been abnormal for

752
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: him to do any way, regardless of this case.

753
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah.

754
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: So the doctor says, I've never seen this woman. I

755
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: didn't do anything, and I certainly didn't cut her head off, right,

756
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: And Jackson and Walling say, this is our story, and

757
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 1: this is what we want to this is what we're

758
00:35:58,360 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: going with. What is the reaction?

759
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 2: They send it to the governor and the governor says,

760
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 2: we don't believe that's true. It contradicts your testimony. They

761
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 2: contradict each other and some of the points and don't

762
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 2: accept it.

763
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,879
Speaker 1: So final appeal denied. And are they both hanged? I'm

764
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: assuming they are both hanged.

765
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,720
Speaker 2: By this point, people really think it's just Scott Jackson

766
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 2: and Walling is a co conspirator or just there by

767
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 2: bad luck. And they're trying to get Jackson to say, well,

768
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 2: Walling wasn't there and he didn't do it, so don't

769
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 2: hang him. But Jackson won't do it because in order

770
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: to do that, he has to admit, yes, I was

771
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 2: there and killed Pearl Bryant and Walling didn't, and he's

772
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: not going to go that far. So he let his

773
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: friend hang, whether he's guilty or not.

774
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 1: Wow, what do you think when it's all said and done.

775
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 1: You've looked at this case more than anybody, What do

776
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: you think?

777
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 2: I think it was a botched abortion, whether the doctor

778
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 2: was involved, or whether it happened in Cincinnati and they

779
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 2: just dumped the body there. There's still contradictory things like

780
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 2: there were defensive marks on her.

781
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: Hand, lots of blood, lots.

782
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 2: And lots of blood. There's so much about Scott. Jackson's

783
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 2: a fast talker, sort of a behind the scenes kind

784
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 2: of guy. Not violent, he was short of stature, not

785
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 2: known to be violent. Boy.

786
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 1: It only takes one time, though, right about that, then

787
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you are violent, and this poor woman,

788
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: you know, she comes down, she's pregnant. Who knows what

789
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: her intention was for getting on that train, whether it

790
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,280
Speaker 1: was an abortion or whether it was to beg someone

791
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: to marry her. Who knows. We just know she ended

792
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: up in Cincinnati when she told her parents she was

793
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: going to Indianapolis, and then that is it. Then the

794
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 1: mystery of what happened to her after that is lost

795
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,760
Speaker 1: over the past, you know, one hundred and thirty years.

796
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,399
Speaker 2: And the conclusion that I drew is that the main

797
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: reason that's so hard to say what really happened is

798
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,280
Speaker 2: that everybody lied, So you don't know what to believe. Yeah,

799
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 2: and it's not like maybe part of this and maybe

800
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 2: part of that. No, it's either or almost every story.

801
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: And you said Pearl kept her own counsel. I love

802
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 1: that phrase. I always forget. That's such an old phrase.

803
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 1: Kept her own counsel. And her parents didn't even know

804
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: she was pregnant, so we don't have a lot of

805
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: information from her. And then you've got all of these

806
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: dubious people, including her cousin, a doctor, and a stagecoach operator.

807
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: The only reliable people, it seems like, in this case,

808
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: you've got prosecutors who are trying to solve this and

809
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: under a lot of public pressure, the only reliable people

810
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: are the initial you know, people who stepped forward, the

811
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: telegraph operator who flagged these messages that just seemed alarming.

812
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 1: You know, the shoe manufacturer who said, boy, this is audits.

813
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: The people who were initially able to sound the alarm

814
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 1: about who she was and what the circumstances might have been.

815
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: So thank goodness for those people, because if not, this

816
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: woman would have ended up in a potter's grave and

817
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 1: would have never been in any way given some sort

818
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: of you know, recognition or any sort of you know,

819
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: vengeance here right, And.

820
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 2: If he hadn't found it the first day, as I said,

821
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: it might have been months before they on that body,

822
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,399
Speaker 2: and then there would be no way to identify her.

823
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: How do you think she is known throughout history? Is

824
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: this a well known case? I had heard her name,

825
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 1: but I really didn't know the case until I looked

826
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: at your book.

827
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 2: It's not as well known as I think it should be.

828
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 2: I mean, when it was happening, it was a national story. Yeah,

829
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 2: papers all over the country. I think sometimes history flattens

830
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 2: things in the sense that whole year of turmoil and

831
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 2: controversy is just reduced to the police caught the killers

832
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 2: and they hung them. Here's the driver, and here's the

833
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 2: shoe guy, and so forth. The details are not there

834
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 2: because they were hung. There's no mystery in that particular summary.

835
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 2: You know what I mean you to say, Oh, yeah,

836
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 2: they were as good police work they hung them. Case closed.

837
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 2: I'll not say Lizzie Borden.

838
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I still think there is that mystery. This

839
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: woman on her own in some way or the other,

840
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 1: certainly fell prey to predators in one way or the other,

841
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: including in her family potentially, and then you know, she

842
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: dies a terrible death based on the forensics that we're

843
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: talking about, by herself. And there seems to be a

844
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: message in there somewhere, and one that shouldn't be forgotten.

845
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 2: Right. There are three murder ballads about the case, where

846
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 2: it's sort of a morality play, a cautionary tale. Watch

847
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 2: Out Who You Trust.

848
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

849
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

850
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly

851
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis a Morosi. Our

852
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed by

853
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga.

854
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff, and Danielle Kramer.

855
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more

856
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. And if you

857
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: know of a historical crime that could use some attention

858
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at

859
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: info at tenfoldmore wicked dot com. We'll also take your

860
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