1 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, Welcome back to Killers amongst Us, 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: a production of iHeartMedia and Crime Online. The disappearance of 3 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: a beautiful young barista, Samantha Konig. She vanishes into thin 4 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: air and into sub zero temperatures this week. Who is 5 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: Israel Keys? What if anything does he have to do 6 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: with Samantha joining us to help crack the case. Investigative 7 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: reporter Casey grow from Alaska and FBI special agent Bobby Chicone, 8 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: who's actually in on the FBI investigation, joining us to 9 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: analyze the clues left behind. Cheryl McCullum, director of the 10 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute, and doctor Bethany Marshall, renowned La psychoanalysts. 11 00:00:53,840 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: Today you hear directly from Israel Keys to understand who 12 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: he is in his own words, When I was smart, 13 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: I would letting them come to me this remote area 14 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: kind of go to a remote area that's not anywhere 15 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: near where you live. I diet other people go to 16 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: as well. Nancy Grace, Killers amongst Us? How did he 17 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: do it? How could he be a serial killer? Traveling 18 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: the country, crossing the country from New Mexico to Anchorage, 19 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: to Texas to California, killing randomly, seemingly randomly. He lived 20 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: to separate lives. Listen. He said to the detectives that 21 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: he found a house and he had staked it out 22 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: prior to their disappearance and murder. He said, to meet 23 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,239 Speaker 1: certain criteria for him to get in easily, to get 24 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: out easily, to have a car. There's no dog, there's 25 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 1: no kids. Keys would avoid homes that he thought either 26 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: had kids or had dogs, simply because they're a complicating factory. 27 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: I think I even had it pegged down just from 28 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: looking at the outside because of the way they had 29 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: their backyards, so it just looked like an older couple 30 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: that didn't have kids kind of house. That is when 31 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:38,119 Speaker 1: Israel Keys is setting at the murder of the Courier family, 32 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: a man and woman. He would stalk in hiking areas. 33 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: He would stalk in areas like where Samantha was leaving 34 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: no connection. As a matter of fact, Bobby Jaco, an 35 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: FBI special agent who was there recovering Samantha Koenigs dismembered 36 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: body out of a sub zero l covered in ice, 37 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: tell me about is your keys kill kits. He would 38 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: take um what were large five gallon compound buckets that 39 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: we often see in home improvement stores that are orange 40 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: and things like that. So he would take something like 41 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: that UM and put into it the things that he 42 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: thought he would need for an abduction and a kill. 43 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: Sometimes they had weapons, knives, guns, they had rope, they 44 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: had tape, UM, they had gloves. Sometimes they had sche masks, 45 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: So each one might have been a little different, UM, 46 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: but they all contained the things to subdue UM and 47 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: abduct someone and then to ultimately kill that person UM. 48 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: And so when I went up to up State New 49 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: York on the Courier case, UM, they had located one 50 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: of those in that area, and then we went to 51 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: look a kill kit they they they located. Yeah, So 52 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: when I went up state New York on the Courier 53 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: case and took my dive team up there, they had 54 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: located his kill kit up there, and he had the 55 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: thought is that he may have used it to actually 56 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: put it back, so they started analyzing that. I'm not 57 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: sure if anything ever came of that, but I certainly 58 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: went to the lake in upstate New York where Keys 59 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: said he had disposed of mister Currier's weapon, and in 60 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: less than an hour my divers located that weapon and 61 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: recovered it exactly where Keys told us it would be. 62 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: To John Lemley, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, were 63 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: the couriers his first kill? Who are the couriers? And 64 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: in this scenario, because I'm relating them back to Barista 65 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: Samantha Koenick, who are the curiers? Let me just start 66 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: with that. Sure, they were a middle aged couple living 67 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: in Essex Junction, Vermont, and over the past twenty four 68 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: to forty eight hours before they were reported missing, family 69 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: members and people they worked with thought it was very 70 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: bizarre that they hadn't heard anything from this couple. So 71 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: police conduct a welfare check. At first, everything looks normal 72 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 1: as if they've left town, like their car is gone, 73 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 1: But then they notice a window is broken, and inside 74 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: they find a mix of things that shouldn't be there 75 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: and things that should be there that are missing, such 76 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: as some very important medication that if they were going 77 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: to travel, they'd certainly have it with them, like Lorraine's 78 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 1: cardiac medicine, Bill's diabetes medicine, also something very important. Neither 79 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: Lorraine's purse nor her wallet was there. Also missing Lorraine's 80 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 1: gun Ruger Snubnos thirty eight caliber handgun that she kept 81 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 1: for protection, and while searching the area outside of the 82 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 1: Courier's home, this is when they first realized that there 83 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 1: may have been an abduction. They found that the couple's 84 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: phone line had been severed, and these were not the 85 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 1: type of people that would just leave out of the blue, 86 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 1: not tell family, not tell co workers where they were going. 87 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: And unfortunately, no other activity was ever reported in the case, 88 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 1: and then it went unsolved for the better part of 89 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: a year. Take a listen to our friend at WPTZ 90 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: NBC five. This is Charlie go hardest investigation, the longest 91 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: investigation I've ever been involved with in twenty eight years. 92 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: About a half mile down a path at the Woodside 93 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: Natural Area is where Detective George Murdy says, Israel Keys 94 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: hit what was used to murder Bill and Lorraine Currier. Yes, 95 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: this general area, and a lot of what guided us 96 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: was the sharp bend in the Winnisky River right here. 97 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: The serial killer told authorities he buried a cash of items, 98 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: including a handgun, in a box, calling it a murder kid. 99 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: Federal investigators say Keys initially stashed it in April two 100 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: thousand and nine. He retrieved it over two years later 101 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: before killing the Couriers. He then hid most of the 102 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: items in Parishville, New York, where they remained until he 103 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: started confessing to his crimes, and they recovered Bill and 104 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: Lorraine Currier's gun and pieces of what turned out to 105 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: be the murder weapon. Detective Murdie said he wasn't surprised 106 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: Keys chose a location like this because a wooded, isolated 107 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: area would have been in Keys's comfort zone. He was 108 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: very comfortable out in the woods and in wilderness areas. 109 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: Murdie can't say if Keys would have returned to Vermont, 110 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: but doesn't think the murderer would have changed his ways. 111 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: I think there's a substantial likelihood that he would have 112 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: killed again if he had remained free. And it seems 113 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: to me that these kill kits have been made very meticulously. 114 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: Listen to detectives speaking, his real Keys were one of 115 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: the most meticulous serial killers that I've ever come across 116 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: or even heard of. And one of the reasons is 117 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: these kill kids on these caches of gear that he 118 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: had stashed away all around the country. These kill kits 119 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: indicate to the FBI just how frighteningly calculating a killer 120 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: Keys is. They're also his signature, setting him apart from 121 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: other serial killers, even though he didn't have an identified victim. 122 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: The planning really started when he would leave that kit, 123 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: when he buried that kit in that location, I haven't 124 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: seen anything like it. It contains things like duct tape, shovels, guns, rope, 125 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: things that you would use to both capture somebody, to 126 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: hold them, and then to kill them and dispose of 127 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: the body afterwards. Draino and LYE and these sorts of 128 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: cost to chemical agents were present as well. Draino was 129 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: an idea I had in case they were found right away. 130 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: I didn't want on the outside of the bodies. The 131 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: other thought I had that it would start the decomposition 132 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: and they would break them down a little bit faster. 133 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: He mentioned having up to twelve cashes stashed in places 134 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: around the country. He kind of joked about them and said, 135 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 1: everybody loves a buried treasure. I was a kid. I 136 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: always used to dream that I'd find buried trading and 137 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: I very well might as well create it. You hear 138 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: him again laughing. You hear him laughing as he describes 139 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:42,599 Speaker 1: the killed kits. But the amount of planning the intricate 140 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: planning to create killed kits, including murder weapons and even 141 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: draino and then bury them in multiple states all across 142 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: this country. FBI believes there are still killed kits buried 143 00:09:55,920 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: to this day. But back to the couriers. Listen to 144 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: Israel Keys in his own words, speaking about two of 145 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: his mini victims, and at that point he was still 146 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: like trying to talk me out of it. He was like, 147 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: it's like, just let us go ok I know you're 148 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: in too deep, but we haven't really seen you. You 149 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: can still walk away. And I was kind of laughed at, 150 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 1: and I was looking, you know, like I don't know 151 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: if I actually said anything, but in my head, I 152 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: was like, you don't even know what I planned. Everybody 153 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 1: doesn't just walk away about two of his mini victims, 154 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: And at that point he was still like trying to 155 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: talk me out of it. He was like, he's like, 156 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: just let us go okay. I know you're in too deep, 157 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: but we haven't really seen you. You can still walk away. 158 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: And I was kind of laughed at and was looking, 159 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: you know, like I don't know if I actually said anything, 160 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: but the laughter, the laughter, I mean, the feeling of superiority, 161 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: he's feeling over his victims. Is the couriers, This man 162 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: and woman are trying to talk him out of killing them. 163 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollums. It literally makes me sick to my stomach. 164 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: And I'm just wondering how the FEDS are feeling sitting 165 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: there listening to him laughing about the victim is trying 166 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: to talk him out of murdering them. Nancy. They're feeling 167 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: confident because the more he talks and the more he laughs, 168 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: the more they gain and the closer they get to 169 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 1: a full confession. So again, yes, he is ridiculous in 170 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: what he's saying. I mean, it's almost unbelievable. You think 171 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: he's making this up, except we know that he's not. 172 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 1: And these you know, caches that he hidden everywhere, I 173 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: can guarantee you there's some in places still that will 174 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: never find. But he not only picked what went in 175 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: that bucket, he picked where he was going to bury it, 176 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: and what went in it. I think they were all 177 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: different for a reason. He didn't need a mask everywhere, 178 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: he didn't need a gun everywhere. He picked it deliberately. 179 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: And when you hear him speak, of course he's laughing 180 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: about it. He was hiding in playing fight. He was 181 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: superior Nancy. He was playing god. He decided who God 182 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: and who didn't and win. Local cops had wondered how 183 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: did the killer get into the Courier home. Well, here's 184 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: Issuel Keys bragging about how he got in penge. Because 185 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: usually if there's an alarm system, it'll trigger the alarm. 186 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: So after I cut that, I was outside for follow 187 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: an hour or two, waiting through everybody in the neighborhood 188 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: to go to sleep. He gains access to the house 189 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: by taking a fan out of a window in the garage. 190 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: He used a crowbar that he found in the garage 191 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 1: to break that glass. Once I was actually in the house, 192 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: I was probably in the bedroom with them five or 193 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: six seconds. That really was a Liitz attack on Bill 194 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: and the Rain who were sleeping in bedrooms with the cooperative. 195 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: At first is yeah, pretty shocked. Sure people never expected 196 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: stuff that's from our friends at Oxygen. But listen to Keys, 197 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: and I'm going to come back to the experts doctor 198 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, Cheryl McCollum, and Bobby Chicon talking about his demeanor, 199 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: how he's ragging about killing these two defenseless people. You 200 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: just make sure they know right away he's in charge 201 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: and immediately tie him up. I jumped up over on 202 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 1: the bed and grabbed her by the neck and shoved 203 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: her head down into the pillow. He went in fast, 204 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: he went in armed. He took them captive, put them 205 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: in their own car. He had found an abandoned farmhouse 206 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: that was very run down, and that's where he ended 207 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: up taking Bill in the rain. They were convinced that 208 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: I had their own. People thought it was a case 209 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: of mistaken identity or something. First thing that he did 210 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: is he took Bill downstairs cable tied his hands so 211 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: he couldn't stand up. Must have taken me longer than 212 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: I thought, because she had got out of the car. 213 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: The just crushing part was hearing about her very near escaping. 214 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: She started running a tackler and roused her up a 215 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: little bit, and tier Mac's feisty shoes fighting all the time. 216 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: That's when Keys tells investigators that he's sexually assaults Lorene. 217 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: That's from our friends at Oxygen to Dotor Bethany Marshall, 218 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: California's psychoanalyst, Doctor Bethany, I mean, there you see him 219 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: raping her, but it's is that his motive. I think 220 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: his motive is actually just to kill. I think it's 221 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: fall rape is just another aspect of that. With serial killers, 222 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: sexual perversion, power, and the homicidal instinct are all intertwined. 223 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: You can't really say one is more important than the other. 224 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: So these kill kids. The reason they're important to him 225 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: is that when he methodically puts them together, he probably 226 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: has sexual arouzzle as he's doing that, because that is 227 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: like the four play before the crime. He is interesting 228 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: about the couriers that he didn't care who he sexually assaulted. 229 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: It could be an adolescent girl, it could be a 230 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: middle aged man. And he didn't even care if his 231 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: victims were alive or dead. Okay, so that's how severe 232 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: the perversion was is it just had to be a body, 233 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: alive or dead. Now, with serial killers, we know that 234 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: aggression is processed through the same neural net as sexuality, 235 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: and somewhere in their neurobiology, sex, sadism, and killing all 236 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: get I don't know, intertwined, fused, stuck together. So when 237 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: he took he took the crowbar out of the garage, 238 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: when he took the screen off the window, when he 239 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: went into the bedroom, I wouldn't be surprised if this 240 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: felt like a sexual ritual. And then when he took 241 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: them to kill them, the idea it would be the 242 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: way am I gonna? Am I gonna sexually assault them 243 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,719 Speaker 1: while they're alive, while they're struggling, slash his throat, and 244 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 1: then sexually assault him while he lies there dying. That 245 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: all of it happens at once in his brain. And 246 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: that's what's so tragic about the couriers is that not 247 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: only were they killed, but they suffered extraordinarily and he 248 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: seems to enjoy the suffering. And I'm trying to figure 249 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 1: out a motive. Again, Remember, the state never has to 250 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: prove a motive. State prosecutors are not expected to, under 251 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: the law, crawl into the mind of a devil, as 252 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum put it, like Israel keys and figure out 253 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: what's happening. But there are clues that maybe part of 254 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: the motive is sexual. We know that he put Samantha 255 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: Koenig in a sex torture chamber that he created and 256 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: a shed even had a radio out in the shed 257 00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:59,719 Speaker 1: to turn the music up super high, so he has 258 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 1: old friend and daughter could not hear her screaming, and 259 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: it goes all the way back to his very first 260 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: victim that we know I've listened to keys. In his 261 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 1: own words, his first plan to sexually assault and kill 262 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: somebody happened in Wapping, Oregon in nineteen ninety seven. He 263 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: went through everything he did to stake things out and 264 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: identify where the best place was to take a victim. 265 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: That's an area where people raft and tube down the 266 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 1: Dashoots river, and he claimed that a girl had been 267 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: separated from her party. He was able to pick off 268 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: the wounded deer in the herd, and much like a 269 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: wolf for a pack of wolves would do, found her 270 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: to be the easiest target, and in fact that was 271 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: his mo early on. They took her into the outhouse 272 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: structure and that's where he sexually assaulted her. What was 273 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: the name of the girl that you right? Oh? She 274 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 1: told me her first name was Leah, Lena leaning something else. Yeah, 275 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: it was that the first time you said to yourself, 276 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: with some depends what your definition is. So that's the 277 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: first time you hit sex with somebody against their rule. No, 278 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 1: but that was the first time like I had something 279 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: tied up, you know, like it was ready to actually 280 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: don't do that. Yeah, she wasn't the first person that 281 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: you had sex with. It wasn't a willing participant and 282 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: made this one because you tied her up because I 283 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: would gonna kill her, and she knew I was gonna 284 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: kill her. He kind of joked that she got inside 285 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 1: his head and she was asking him some personal questions 286 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: and kind of interact with him on a personal level. 287 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: She was talking to me and telling me, you know 288 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Oh, you're a good looking guy. Why 289 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: are you You know you don't have to do this. 290 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: I probably would have even gone out with you and 291 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: all the stuff, and things never got really violent like 292 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: they could have if she had been fighting me or something. 293 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: And she was pretty smart she was. I mean, because 294 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: it worked. I didn't I did. The main thing is 295 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: I just lost my nerve right at the end. That 296 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 1: victim eventually talked him into letting her go. S if 297 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: you tell anybody about this and I come back and 298 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: kill you. For like two years after that, I kept 299 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: telling myself I should have killed her, and I like 300 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: really beat myself up about that. Wow, you know what 301 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: I beat myself up about not giving the children enough vegetables. 302 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: I'm just thinking and hearing him laugh about the victims, 303 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: and he really beats himself up about the fact that 304 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: he didn't kill her. I'm seeing a lot of similarities 305 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: to FBI special agent Bobby Chicone. You can find him 306 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: at Bobby Chicone dot com. Bobby, I see picking this 307 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: a similar looking victim Leah that he's describing restraining her, 308 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: raping her, planning to kill her, committing the deed in 309 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 1: an outhouse as he describes it, compared to the shed 310 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 1: in which he sex assaulted and murdered Samantha Konig. I mean, 311 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: he thinks he's so smart, but he's committing the same 312 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: m O modus operandi method of operation over and over 313 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: and over. Yes, But the important thing here, Nancy, is 314 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: to look at these two cases and look at the 315 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: evolution of a killer. So here he brought her back 316 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 1: to an outhouse which is in the public for everybody 317 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: to use. As he matures as a killer, as he 318 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 1: gets better at his craft, he now has a shed 319 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 1: under his control that he's already pre outfitted with restraining devices. 320 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: So the change in this first attempted murder and rape 321 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: to the current situation that we have with Samantha Koning 322 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: is you can see the difference. You can see how 323 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: much he has honed his skills, how much he has 324 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: learned from prior incidents, and he says I should have 325 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 1: killed her. He learned from that initial incident and he 326 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: changed his methods and he got better. And this is 327 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: what we often find with killers like this, They get 328 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: better as they learn from their mistakes, if they don't 329 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: get caught from those mistakes. So these two incidents they 330 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: show us a stark difference. And you know, the maturation 331 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: and the expertise that he was developing in his craft, 332 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: which is to hunt and kill people. Well, what's so 333 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: amazing to me? And I'm going to let you explain 334 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: this in your way, Cheryl McCollum. But with all of 335 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: this happen, the raping, the murderer, he still doesn't want 336 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: his daughter to find out about dismembering Samantha Knig. Listen 337 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: to Keys in his own words, if you can stand it, 338 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: I do want to continue to quadry. I'm harving some 339 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: issues as far as somewhat of an unrealizeded expectation on 340 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: my part, But I was thinking there might be a 341 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: way to disclose all this information to Maybe you want 342 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: to do that, Yeah, and to some way ensure somehow 343 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: ensure that we work out some sort of a dreaming 344 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: that you know, I give you all the answer mons cases, 345 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: and I I want to get closer and find his 346 00:23:53,640 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: movie and many of the as possible. And and in 347 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: return for that, you know, I you know, I don't 348 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: find on being around a whole lot longer. But it 349 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 1: was really big concern to me, is um, you know 350 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: I didn't gonna be around. I don't want her to 351 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: take my name in the computer an my big pop up. 352 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: But you know, you know, I already know stuffing top 353 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: I know that, but um, I just trying to minimize 354 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: that at this point, I go and what I would 355 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: hoping to do, and um, apparently it's going to be 356 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: really difficult h giving that assurance. So I'm trying to, 357 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: you know, figure out a way to and so do that. 358 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,479 Speaker 1: So schry McCollum again, he's worried about his daughter finding 359 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: out about the dismemberment of Samantha Kney. He's living two 360 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: lots for him. The dismemberment was a level very different 361 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: than just frightening someone or shooting someone from a distance. 362 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: That is grotesque by anybody's definition, and he knew it 363 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 1: would be for his daughter, so we wanted to keep 364 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: that from her. So we've got this life as her dad, 365 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 1: he's got this life as a killer. He wanted those 366 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: two things separated as much as possible. How did he 367 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 1: do it? How could he be a serial killer? Traveling 368 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 1: the country, crossing the country from New Mexico to Anchorage, 369 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 1: to Texas to California, killing randomly, seemingly randomly. He lived 370 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: two separate lives. Listen, it wasn't until we got into 371 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 1: the really detailed conversations about his crimes where you had 372 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: to kind of step back. And that's why nobody suspected him. 373 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: He did such a good job of having these two 374 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: different lives, despite his stable career and newfound commitment to fatherhood. 375 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: He's tells investigators that he can't suppress his uncontrollable rouge 376 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: to kill him. He recounts the convincing wise he made 377 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: up to keep his family in the dark. A lot 378 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: of stuff that I did was in conjunction with something 379 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: else that was going on a pretty tight timeline, if 380 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: you can say so that it ever came up that 381 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 1: It's not like I would be in a situation where 382 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: I did explain where I was for days on end 383 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: or something. He would make up these stories for why 384 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: he had to leave on jobs and then take off 385 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: for blocks of time. He would tell family and friends 386 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 1: co workers that he was heading over to eastern Washington 387 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: to visit family. I may have gone to eastern Washington, 388 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean I went to see old friends. 389 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: I don't have any old friendship. Interestingly, his partner had 390 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: absolutely no clue about what he was up to. She 391 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: never suspected or knew anything. A measure of a success 392 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: was traveling to a place that he has no connection 393 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: to to commit a murder and then leave right away. 394 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 1: Traveling was his way of getting away, both physically and 395 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,199 Speaker 1: probably psychologically from the stability of the home he had created. 396 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: It's amazing to me, how does he do it? Bethany, 397 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: And it's not the first time we've seen it. For instance, 398 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: btk bind torture killed Dennis Raider was dogcatcher, involved in 399 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 1: his church, extremely sanctimonious, with a wife and a family. 400 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 1: You've got Ted Bundy, who was a law student whose 401 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: many people, not me, thought was charming, thought was charismatic. 402 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: You've got Scott Peterson who had it all, the wife, 403 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: the baby on the way, the home, the job, the 404 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: college degree, the golf that their killers, but they put 405 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: on the they put on a semblance of normalcy. You know, Nancy, 406 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: when we covered the beach k killer number of years ago, 407 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: I looked at all the research on serial killers, like 408 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 1: what kind of lives do they lead? And one of 409 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: the things the research showed is that they are often 410 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: family men in menial jobs. They usually have like two 411 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: point five children, like the national average, and they often 412 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: drive a family van or a family vehicle of some sort. 413 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: And in this case with Israel Keys, and we saw 414 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: with BTK and all the other serial killers you mentioned, 415 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: they do live double lives, but not because they love 416 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: their families. It's as we talk about earlier, they want 417 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: to put on the mask of sanity. They know something's 418 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: wrong with them, they know that they are not like 419 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: the rest, but they assemble a superficial life like putting 420 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: on a costume. But you know, when we go to 421 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: a costume party, that costume is just good for that night. 422 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: You know, we throw it in the closet at the 423 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: end of the night. We don't think about it doesn't 424 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: mean anything. That's like their families are like a costume 425 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: to that they have superficial interest. But this whole thing 426 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: about his daughter, I think in just some cheap kind 427 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: of way, he wants his daughter to look up to him. 428 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: It's like just simple pride and it's nothing more than that. 429 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: He doesn't want her to think of him badly. But 430 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: she's going to, right, She's going to grow up and 431 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: read all the news reports. So this is how shallow 432 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: his thinking is. Well, it's quite the dichotomy that he 433 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: wants to have a family and a family life. Cheryl McCollum, 434 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: I mean, we've dealt with serial killers so many many times, 435 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: and I'm always amazed they have a normal life. They 436 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: see that's part of it. They grow up knowing that's 437 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: what they're supposed to do. I mean, they watch TV, 438 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: they see movies, they see neighbors. They won't that on 439 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: some level they just know they can't have it. So 440 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: again they won't. The facade and that also in a 441 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: really bizarre way with BTK helps them continue their crime. 442 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: How does he do it? You can how does he 443 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: have a normal life when he's traveling across the country, 444 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: raping and killing. He adds bank robberies to his repertoire. 445 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: How does he do it? And then he comes home 446 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: to a wife and a daughter. Yeah, and I think 447 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: I agree with Charlotte. I don't. I don't. I think 448 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: it's all the facade for him. I think it's it's 449 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: it's it's a disguise that he uses. The normalcy is 450 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: a disguise. He doesn't really want that. He knows he 451 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: needs it in society because he was raised to think 452 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: that this is what people do. So this is what 453 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: he has to do to be able to maintain this 454 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: facade so that he can then go and pursue his 455 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: life's passion and his life's work, which is to hunt 456 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: and kill people. That's what he's made to do. If 457 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: society didn't have these rules, he probably wouldn't need that facade. 458 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: So the facade only serves the function of keeping him hidden, 459 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: keeping him out in the public, so that he's not 460 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: caged like an animal. So he knows that, so you know, 461 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: he doesn't want to have that family life. He doesn't 462 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: want any of that. It's a useful tool. It's just 463 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: like a ski mask that he might pull over to 464 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: hide his identity. That's what all about. Trappings are and 465 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: he has learned that through his upbringing that he needs 466 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: to maintain that so that he can go off and 467 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 1: do these other things that he's really basically and primarily 468 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: driven to do. You know, Bobby, I've actually as many 469 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: times if I've dealt with serial killers, I've never thought 470 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: about it like that. I didn't think about it that way. 471 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: That these families, or being the deacon in the church, 472 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: or the dogcatcher, or the law student or the fertilizer salesman, 473 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: that's that's all just props. That's like putting on stage 474 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: makeup and you know, a costume. That's what those people 475 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: are to you. That's all they are to you. They 476 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: make it possible for you to be literally a wolf 477 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: in this world. Listen. Investigators suspect he's killed a total 478 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: of eight people after they learned of five potential victims 479 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: in Washington State. But it was after taking those five 480 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: lives that Keys comes to a crossroads in his personal life. 481 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: He decides that his girlfriend, struggling with alcoholism, is an 482 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: unfit mother, so he seeks a better life for his 483 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: daughter an anchorage. He's been a handyman from much of 484 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: his life, so he opened his own contracting business. He 485 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: really fooled everybody. I mean, there was no indication for 486 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: anybody in Anchorage that he was up to anything other 487 00:32:54,680 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: than carpentry. He was of living what seemed to be 488 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: a responsible life, but it was more like islands that 489 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: were punctuated by channels that were turbulent and dangerous. He 490 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: could be on firm ground for a little while, but 491 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: it wouldn't last. Keys tell special Agent Joline Golden and 492 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: her team, and in the spring of two thousand and nine, 493 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 1: he traveled to the East Coast under the guise of 494 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: visiting family. During the strip, Keys had committed a homicide. 495 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: He had acknowledged that to us. Our computer forensic team 496 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: had gotten hold of his computer to see what kind 497 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: of news article he searching, and they found Deborah Feldman's 498 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: name on the computer. Deborah Feldman was a woman the 499 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: FBI had identified as going missing and around this time. 500 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 1: She was someone who was estranged from her family, and 501 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: I think that they assume that she had just run off. 502 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: She was someone who lived a very high risk lifestyle. 503 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: She had addiction issues, may have lived on the street 504 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: for a while, and these is the type of people 505 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: that unfortunately fall prey to people like Keys. In her case, 506 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: a very little media attention was not one that he 507 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: would have had any reason to know about, so to 508 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: find her name on it was really significant. We pulled 509 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: photographs of several missing people, and when we got to 510 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: Deborah's photograph, his demeanor changed a bit. Do you know 511 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: this person? That's do you know where this person is? 512 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: For the first time, the investigators see a crack and 513 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: Keys is cool persona. Keys didn't want to talk about 514 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: Deborah Felman because it was a turn on the way 515 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: he was controlling the interrogation process. All of a sudden, 516 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: we're confronting him with a picture, say do you know 517 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: this person? So he pushes back and say I don't 518 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,919 Speaker 1: want to talk about that. He's exercising that control again. 519 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: This was part of that cat and mouse game, and 520 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,439 Speaker 1: he was at a point where he, I don't think, 521 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: felt that he had to give us anything. But he 522 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: didn't deny it either. Her name was on your computer, Yeah, 523 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't understand. You don't understand why the 524 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 1: name was on my computer. Well, put it this way. 525 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: There's a lot of names on that we'll just explain. 526 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 1: So we're not sitting here and wondering, No, I'm not, 527 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: I'm not. No, I'm not gonna talk about let's computer. 528 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 1: You're hearing serial killer Israel Keys in his own words 529 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: and our friends at Oxygen Bobby checkon the debbor they're 530 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 1: talking about. Is victim number nine that we know of? 531 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: How is her murder and Leah's murder similar to that 532 00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: of Samantha Konigan? How do you think he picked Samantha out? Well? 533 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,800 Speaker 1: The Debora Felman murder is similar because they tied the 534 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,439 Speaker 1: time of her disappearance to a known trip that Keys 535 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: took to the area where she disappeared. He also robbed 536 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: a bank in that area. He drove and robbed a bank, 537 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,800 Speaker 1: and then he was in the area where Debora Felman 538 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: disappeared at the time of a disappearance. And then then 539 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: and they because they found her name and a news 540 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: article on his computer. And when they confronted him with that, 541 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: you saw the stark change in his demeanor. He did 542 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 1: not like the fact that for change where he was 543 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: giving the interrogators the situations where he killed people. Now 544 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,720 Speaker 1: they're saying, we found another one that you did without 545 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: your help. That frightened him. That that's the loss of 546 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: control because now the interrogators now are saying, we did 547 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,320 Speaker 1: some work and we know what you did here. So 548 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: that's a complete change to that point. And that change, 549 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: you can see how that change caused his change in demeanor. 550 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: And he immediately said, no, I'm not going to talk 551 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: about any names on my computer because now he's he's 552 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,479 Speaker 1: lost a measure of that control. Um, and that's that's 553 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,320 Speaker 1: that's a that was a very big turning. So my 554 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 1: question is how did he single out Samantha? What do 555 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: you think, Bobby, Well, Um, we think he singled out 556 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 1: the coffee shop itself. So he he knew that that 557 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: particular coffee shop stayed open I think one hour later 558 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: than some of the surrounding coffee kiosks that that populated 559 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 1: that area, so he staked them out. He knew that 560 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 1: that one stayed opened one hour later. Um, it was 561 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: it was surrounded by a mountain of snow basically, so 562 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: it was hidden from the street. So I think he 563 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,800 Speaker 1: picked the actual coffee shop and whoever was closing on 564 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 1: that particular night was going to be his victim. I 565 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:47,800 Speaker 1: wonder how many times, how many times, Cheryl McCollum he 566 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: drove by Samantha kon Egg and looked into her coffee 567 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,879 Speaker 1: stand and decided she was the one I guarantely used 568 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: at least four He take the coffee shop out, had 569 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: nothing to do with her once he realized, Hey, after 570 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: about forty five minutes to close, they stopped having a 571 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: lot of people. There's not a lot of people around. 572 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,320 Speaker 1: He thought that location, he knew where to part, he 573 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: knew how to enter, he knew how to get out, 574 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: he knew how to do it unseen. He was meticulous 575 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: in every aspect, Nancy. He knew that general area better 576 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 1: than I would say most people that live there. I mean, 577 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: if you listen to him talk about how he staked 578 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: out the home of the couriers, the couple, about taking 579 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: the fan out of the window, about sneaking in, cutting 580 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: the phone cords. He had watched them for a long time. 581 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: He had buried a kill kit long before in their vicinity. 582 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,399 Speaker 1: Same thing here, And just imagine Samantha Cone Egg, night 583 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: after night after night in that isolated coffee stand. You know, sir, 584 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: founded by the twelve foot tall snow banks where the 585 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 1: snow has been pushed out of the parking area of 586 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: the parking lot and there she sits like a little 587 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: canary in a golden case, just sitting there waiting, unbeknownst 588 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 1: to her, no idea at all. But then you also 589 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: have the aspect of the robbery. It's not just about 590 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: sexual torture. It's not just about the thrill of dominion 591 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: over his victims later laughing about how they begged to live. 592 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: You know, he's making a living at this there's a 593 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: robbery aspect, and it goes all the way back to that. 594 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: We know of victim number nine, that's Debrah at that point, 595 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,760 Speaker 1: that is when he started robbing banks. Listener, the reason 596 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: he was such a successful killing machine was because he 597 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: knew how to avoid getting caught. The only victim that 598 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: we recovered is Amantha, and that's because he told us 599 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: exactly where she was. He was very good at not 600 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: leaving evidence. Deborah is the ninth victim that the FBI 601 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: is able to connect to Keys, and although her body 602 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: has never been recovered, Keys's location at the time of 603 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: her disappearance supports the theory that she is one of 604 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 1: his victims. With Deborah, New Jersey, FBI is asking questions 605 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,880 Speaker 1: basically because it fits, it fits, the date, fits the 606 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,839 Speaker 1: place fits. A number of things fit, and the fact 607 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: that she's on your computer I don't want to talk about. 608 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: We suspect that Deborah went missing on April ninth, and 609 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: it was on April eleventh that the bank and Tupper Lake, 610 00:40:54,360 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 1: New York was robbed. We learned that Keys was into 611 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 1: bank robberies, and he admitted that was a bank that 612 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:08,759 Speaker 1: he had robbed. I walked through the door and there 613 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: are a lot of people, so I've holding gun out. 614 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: But then I already had to know, and I was like, 615 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 1: this doesn't make sense. They've already got the gun out. 616 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 1: There's literally a picture where you've got done in one 617 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,320 Speaker 1: holding gun. The other money cashes were some of the 618 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 1: types of cashes that he had. So from that statement, 619 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 1: I suspect that he's probably robbed several banks. The idea 620 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 1: was we could find the bank that he robbed, maybe 621 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 1: we can find the person he murdered, because that seemed 622 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: to be in similar places. But he was very careful 623 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,719 Speaker 1: with dolding out information and he understood exactly where we're going. 624 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: Believe it or not, ast of the things I've done 625 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:46,760 Speaker 1: having been for money, and it's hard to make that defense. 626 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 1: I didn't get quite a bad that's not really more 627 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 1: of the drolling bank robberies are fairly common in our business, 628 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: but takeover bank robberies where suspect takes over the bank 629 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: exceedingly rare. Seemed to be one of the things he 630 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 1: enjoyed doing after killing someone because it excited him. Mister 631 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,839 Speaker 1: Keys said it was similar to the type of rush 632 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,360 Speaker 1: he would get when he would kidnap the victim, but 633 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,360 Speaker 1: not on the same scale. That's our friends at Oxygen 634 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:24,280 Speaker 1: and the words from Hours of Israel Keys statements John Linley. 635 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 1: Where the bodies of the couriers ever found? I mean, 636 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 1: we've got so many victims. I had made a float chart. No, 637 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: they were not. Keys were forced into a vacant farmhouse 638 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,280 Speaker 1: not far from their home. Now, this is a location 639 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,919 Speaker 1: that Keys had identified earlier as the place where he'd 640 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 1: take a couple. He hadn't identified at the time which one, 641 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: but take a couple and then killed them. Keys placed 642 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 1: the courier's bodies in separate garbage bags in one corner 643 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,879 Speaker 1: of that abandoned farmhouse basement. He poured draino on them 644 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: to speed decomposition, than covered them with debris. Now, not 645 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,759 Speaker 1: knowing as the months passed that the old burned out 646 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,919 Speaker 1: house was actually a crime scene. Someone at some point 647 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,239 Speaker 1: had bulldozed the charred remains and hauled them all to 648 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 1: a landfill. By the time investigators realized the full story 649 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 1: of what had happened to the couriers, the debris and 650 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 1: presumably the couple's remains had been there for some time. 651 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: A long search of the landfill was conducted, but the 652 00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,719 Speaker 1: courier's bodies were never recovered, and at this point authorities 653 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,719 Speaker 1: really don't expect to ever find them, isn't it true? 654 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 1: John Linley one of his hunting grounds was cemeteries. Yes, indeed, 655 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 1: he seemed to have a fascination with cemeteries as a 656 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 1: part of his travel. One thing that investigators began to 657 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 1: see is that a picture of Keys' life was He 658 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 1: liked to be a tourist. He liked to travel. He 659 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,720 Speaker 1: liked the freedom of moving around the country exploring new places. 660 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 1: So very much like many of us, he'd scope out 661 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:06,359 Speaker 1: where he wanted to go, where he'd like to stay. 662 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 1: He'd make airline in riddle car reservations. Unlike many of us, though, 663 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:16,360 Speaker 1: instead of say, visiting an historic landmark or maybe catching 664 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 1: up with family or friends. He said he had none. 665 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: His vacation activities centered around murdering a random person or 666 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,320 Speaker 1: maybe two, if you're trying to compare him to me, 667 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,879 Speaker 1: taking the twins to historic sites or Disney. He didn't 668 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:36,840 Speaker 1: stop right there. You know the way he talks. He 669 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: talked for how many hours, Bobby chi con Oh, dozens 670 00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,279 Speaker 1: of hours. I don't know the exact number, but he 671 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,800 Speaker 1: spoke for dozens of hours. There were many, many trips, 672 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,839 Speaker 1: all in control. I can just imagine him kicked back, 673 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:53,799 Speaker 1: smoking his cigar, laughing about all of his victims. It's 674 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,360 Speaker 1: a miracle in my mind, Bobby, that the body of 675 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,560 Speaker 1: Samantha was ever found, because we never got Deborah's body, 676 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,479 Speaker 1: we never found the courier's body. There are so many 677 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:10,000 Speaker 1: others out there I think we don't know about and 678 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 1: we never found. And what's eerie that I can't shake 679 00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:26,280 Speaker 1: this is that he walked among us undetected for decades, killing, 680 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:33,160 Speaker 1: planning the killings, enjoying the killings, savoring the killings. I mean, 681 00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,520 Speaker 1: when I pull up at a red light and I 682 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 1: look around, this guy Keys makes me automatically lock my doors, 683 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:54,160 Speaker 1: because killers walk among us. In case you're wondering Israel 684 00:45:54,280 --> 00:46:02,799 Speaker 1: Keys committed suicide behind bars. Nancy Grace starting y'all good 685 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:03,359 Speaker 1: back end