WEBVTT - #239 Jason Flom with Johnny Berry 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:07.080 On August tenth, nineteen ninety four, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, seventy 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:09.600 eight year old Leonard Jones and twenty seven year old 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.520 Michelle Brooks sat in a parked car when one male 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:15.800 blocked the passenger door and another demanded that Jones get 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:19.720 out before shooting and killing him. The two males fled. 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:23.760 Michelle Brooks initially chose sixteen year old Johnny Barry from 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:26.920 a photo lineup, but when she rescinded that idea at 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:31.320 a preliminary hearing, the charges were dropped. Within a few weeks, 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:35.159 Johnny was inexplicably rearrested for the crime of which he 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:38.479 had just been cleared, and while in juvenile detention, he 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:41.839 met fifteen year old Taheed Lloyd, who admitted that he 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:44.400 was one of the two attackers in the Jones killing, 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:47.360 but when he wouldn't agree to clear Johnny's name, the 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:51.400 two boys fought. Lloyd was later arrested on an unrelated charge, 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:53.479 and a gun in his possession was linked to the 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:58.840 Jones murder. However, Lloyd mistakenly believed that Johnny had implicated him, 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.920 and as retribution, falsely named Johnny Berry as his accomplice 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:07.600 and Jones's shooter. At trial, Michelle Brooks's testimony was shaky 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:11.200 at best, but with Lloyd's testimony, Johnny was convicted and 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:15.959 sentenced to life without parole. Years later, Lloyd admitted his lies, 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:19.039 but at a hearing when the prosecution threatened to charge 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:22.480 Lloyd with perjury and retry him for the murder, Lloyd 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:26.360 refused to officially recant. It took a slew of Supreme 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:29.520 Court rulings on juvenile life sentences and a review by 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:33.800 Philadelphia's Conviction Integrity Unit to finally set Johnny Barry free 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:38.720 after nearly twenty five long years behind bars. This is 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:56.080 Wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your host, 0:01:56.200 --> 0:02:01.160 Jason Flahman. This episode is probably gonna with your perceptions 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.720 of justice. I mean, there are so many things wrong 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:07.360 with this case. You're gonna feel like you need a 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:11.239 chiropractic from your head spinning around. It's an incredible story 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:14.840 of an incredible man named Johnny Berry, and it goes 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:18.040 all the way to the United States Supreme Court decisions, 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:22.160 to lying witnesses, and a corrupt system that really ignored 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:25.720 what should have been absolutely crystal clear from day one. 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:30.480 So without further ado, Johnny Berry, Welcome to Wronfuel Conviction. 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:32.640 Thank you, thank you very much. Jason. 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:36.400 Yeah, And I mean, I'm so sorry you're here because 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:39.480 of what you had to go through, But I'm obviously 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:42.960 on the flip side, I'm super happy that you're free 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:47.920 and out and have been totally exonerated and vindicated and 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:50.920 are now living your best life. So okay, what was 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:53.359 your life like before all of this insanity? 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:57.519 Growing up in Philadelphia, Wes Philadelphia, life was simple. It 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:01.320 was fun. I am the eldest of five children. My 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:04.520 father was active member in the military. My mother was 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:07.480 a stay at home mom. We were poor, definitely didn't 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:11.160 have much, but what we did have was love, dedication 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:13.600 to one another, and we did our best to make 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:14.200 things work. 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:17.280 It sounds like people living that kind of life all 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:20.079 over the country, right, just struggling to get by day 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:23.079 to day, but having good parents and lots of love 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:26.359 in the household. And so you were sixteen years old 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:28.560 at the time of this horrible crime went on August tenth, 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.079 nineteen ninety four. Leonard Jones, who was seventy eight years 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:33.680 old and Michelle Brooks, who was just twenty seven, were 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.160 sitting in a van in the Parkside neighborhood at Philadelphia, 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:40.720 when two very young men approached the van. Right one 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:44.240 of them blocked the passenger side door from opening, preventing 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:47.280 Michelle from getting out, and then the other one approached 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:49.920 mister Jones with a handgun and yelled at him to 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.640 get out, but before he could even comply. I don't 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:54.760 forget he was not a young guy, seventy eight years old. 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:57.760 He was shot and killed and then both of the 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.960 men fled. And before we dive in to the investigation, 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:05.000 it's important to note that you, Johnny, had had some 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:07.800 brussures with the law prior to this. 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:12.080 Is that right, Yes? Unfortunately, yeah, I was specifically involved 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:14.960 with and I'm not proud of the selling of drugs 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:16.240 and things of that nature. 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:18.760 Right, So you weren't exactly a choir boy. But that 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:22.280 also doesn't make you a murderer. And it is relevant though, 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:24.680 because it means that you were known to the police. 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:28.680 And so as the investigation got underway, Michelle Brooks, the 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.520 twenty seven year old woman from the van, she described 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:33.360 the man who had held her door shut and said 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:36.120 he had a chipped front tooth, and then police showed 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:39.159 her a photographic lineup, and from that lineup she picked you, 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:42.279 and at that time you did have a slightly chipped 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:46.400 front tooth, so police arrested you. But on August thirty first, 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:49.280 nineteen ninety four, Michelle Brooks came to the preliminary hearing 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:51.719 and when she saw you, she told police that you 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:54.000 were not the person who had held the door shut. 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:57.800 You're just not the guy. So naturally the charges were 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:01.040 dismissed and you were freed, and that should have been 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:03.200 the end of it for you right there, you know, 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:07.359 But a few weeks later you were rearrested for the 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:11.000 same crime and sent back to Julie. So, Johnny, this 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:12.839 is crazy, right, I mean, phill us in, do you 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:14.760 have any idea why they rearrested you. 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:17.680 I have a theory. It was a time period where 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:22.520 Philadelphia was being plagued with crime, and politicians and public 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.560 officials were like their feet held to the fire, like, hey, 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:27.719 we got to do something about this. I was a 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:31.360 known individual to authorities. I was in the streets, I 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:35.560 was involved with gang activity, I sold drugs, and I 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:39.159 believe that the police specifically honed in on me. They 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:41.520 had me, they didn't have any other individual at that 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.159 particular time, and they wanted me and they were stuck 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:47.800 on me. And that's why we don't have any or 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:50.520 never came up with any type of evidence as to 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:51.640 why I was rearrested. 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.760 Yeah, I guess that's not completely out of the realm 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.880 of possibilities. It was Philadelphia in the nineties, after all, 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:02.240 when both crime and police miscond were just rampant. I mean, 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:06.600 but what happens next is even crazier. So there you 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:10.360 are back in juvenile detention and you hear about a 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:13.040 fifteen year old kid named Tyeth Lloyd who had been 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:16.360 a juvie on an unrelated charge during your last short stint. 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:19.719 Now he was still there and some guys, but aheadn't 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:24.080 told you what he had said after you had left 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:25.159 the last time. 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:30.200 Yeah, so I was incarcerated in the juvenile facility, and 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:35.400 once there, the individuals who were there and had been 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:38.360 introduced to me, so to speak from my time prior, 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:41.159 the whole thing was, hey, what are you doing here? 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:43.960 Why are you back? And I'm like, I have no idea. 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:46.479 They say, okay, well, by the way, do you know 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:50.040 this guy over here indicating Tayhi Lloyd, and I'm like, no, 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.240 I don't know him, never met him before, you know, 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:54.640 what's up with him? They're like, hey, when you left, 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:57.520 he told us that he and his friend had committed 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.000 the murder and not you, and that you really didn't 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:03.720 do it. So, hearing that, I approached him and I 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:05.760 was like, hey, I'm hearing that you had something to 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:08.320 do with this homicide that I'm here for. I didn't 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:09.960 do it. You know I didn't do it. Can you 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.880 help me with it? His exact words to me was, 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.160 I know who did it. I didn't do it, but 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.080 I'm not saying anything. And at that point I said, 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:21.920 or you're not saying anything? Oh no, you bought this. 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:24.720 We got into a physical altercation. We started to fight, 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:28.680 and the officers in that vicinity came and they broke 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:31.440 the fight up, separated us, but we had bad blood 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:33.920 between us from that point on because I was so 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:36.480 bent on. Man, I'm in this freaking hell hole for 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.760 something you and your friend or whoever it was, did 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:41.320 and I'm not supposed to be here. 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:45.120 And do you remember did Lloyd have chip teeth like 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:47.480 the witness Michelle Brooks had mentioned. 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:52.560 TYI, Lloyd had a very very identifiable two front chip teeth. 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:55.200 I could have actually taken the tip of your pinky 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:58.280 finger and stuck it through that chip in front of 0:07:58.280 --> 0:07:58.960 his two teeth. 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:03.120 Well, I don't know that anybody in your situation would 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:06.280 have acted any differently. I mean not every reason to 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:09.280 be angry and to want to try to do what 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:14.040 you could do in that situation to extricate yourself. Right, 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:17.000 And here's this guy who holds the key, and he's 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.520 right in front of you, and then he actually turned 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:24.320 in the complete opposite direction. What I'm talking about is 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:27.680 Lloyd was arrested several months later and they found him 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.000 in possession of a handgun that was linked to the murder. 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:35.640 Ballistics confirmed this, and he thought that you had implicated 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:39.040 him because you had known that he had done it 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:42.160 from the talk inside the prison, and so he went 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:44.920 ahead and implicated you in the crime, almost like street 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.360 justice or something like that. Right, And as happens in 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:51.880 these cases time and time again, he agreed to plead 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:54.800 guilty in exchange for a fifteenth to thirty seven year 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.560 sentence for a murder that he did commit. So he 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:01.200 saved himself from a life sentence changed for lying and 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:05.480 presenting false testimony against you. Well, now what happens next 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:08.960 is predictable, right, You get charged with murder, robbery, conspiracy, 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:13.520 and possessing instruments of crime. So now you're facing the 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:17.240 worst imaginable scenario. What was going through your mind when 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:18.840 you found out you were being charged with all these 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:19.920 terrible crimes. 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:22.480 When I realized that I was being charged for this 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:26.320 murder and that he was bearing testimony against me, I 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:30.000 was horrified. I still remained optimistic that I was going 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:32.240 to go to trial and beat the case because I 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:32.839 didn't do it. 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.160 And so let's go to the trial. So this is 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:38.240 September nineteen ninety five. He had already spent the year 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:42.760 in jail awaiting trial. And then Michelle Brooks. So Michelle Brooks, 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:45.959 remember was the witness who was in this vehicle at 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:50.600 the time of the murder. Now, her testimony was conflicting 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:54.520 and confusing. She identified you as the person who held 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:57.400 the door shut during the robbery, but then she also 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:00.480 identified you as the gunman, which of course that couldn't 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:03.160 both be true. And she also said that she had 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:06.320 told the police previously that you weren't involved in the crime. 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:12.240 And then she restated that in her testimony. So if 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:15.000 I'm on the jury, I'm going wait a minute, there's 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:19.120 three totally different stories here. But I think the nail 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:22.960 in your conference, so to speak, was that Lloyd testified 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:25.160 saying that you and he had committed the crime. He 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:27.640 knew full well who had committed the crime with him, 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:32.800 and that guy, his actual co conspirator, remained on the 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:36.360 streets as a result of them taking you in his place. 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:39.840 So who was your attorney and did they mount any 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:41.240 kind of a defense for you. 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:45.880 My attorney at the time was Donald Michael Podova. I 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:51.520 will say that he did his best. He was quote appointed, overworked, underpaid, 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:55.200 and he tried his best to save this young boy's life. 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:58.199 And it was so much that he could have done 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.679 with a so called co defendant who pointed the finger 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:03.880 and said, hey, yeah, I was a part of this crime, 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:05.520 but he done it with me. Give me a deal, 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:06.200 you know. 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:11.440 So predictably, you were convicted of murder, robbery, possessing instruments 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.120 of a crime, and conspiracy and sentenced to life in 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:18.439 prison without the possibility of parole. What was that awful 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:20.560 moment like when the jury came back in. 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:23.640 With the verdict. When I was convicted and they handed 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:26.520 down that life sentence, tears came down my eyes like 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:28.880 a baby. I looked back at my mother at the time, 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:31.600 who was living, and I cried because I couldn't believe 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:35.359 that the system had felt my family and my community 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:39.120 and me, and at that point I just felt absolutely helpless. 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:53.640 This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company, 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:57.559 and by Accenture, a global professional services company with leading 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:01.640 capabilities in digital, cloud and secure Working to reform the 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:04.160 criminal justice system is a key pillar of the AIG 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.560 pro Bono program, which provides free legal services and other 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:11.960 support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need. 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:15.520 As part of Eccentsure's commitment to racial and civil justice. 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:19.720 Accenture's Legal Access program provides pro bono legal services in 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:23.800 partnership with more than forty organizations, bringing meaningful change to 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:26.000 people and communities worldwide. 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:37.920 When I first got to prison, they sent me to 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:44.040 state correctional institution Gratifford. That place was like another world. 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:46.440 When I was eighteen at the time. When I first 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:50.440 entered into grated Ford, it was like halways full of people, 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:55.679 full of people like close jury loud, and I thought, 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.800 who are all these people? Wow, there's a lot of 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.960 counselors that were here, because I saw very few people 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:06.120 who had on the state issued clothing. Well what it was, 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:10.120 were all inmates, and at that particular time, we were 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:13.719 allowed to wear our street clothing. So the hallways was 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:16.600 filled with inmates or residents as I like to call them. 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:21.080 At that time, Prisidon was a lot more ran by 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.960 the residents, more so than it is now. At that time, 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:28.679 the residents had more control over the institutions and there 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.800 was a lot more liberties, more freedom. It was more 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.880 volatile than it is now. But on the other hand, 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:38.080 it had like a balance to the police. The residents 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:40.960 kind of ran it, but they maintained a balance, so 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.440 people didn't just do anything. You know, there were checks 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:47.199 and balances if you've done something. You know. Administration kind 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:49.560 of worked hand to hand with some of the residents 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:52.000 and we kind of figured it out. That didn't mean 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:54.559 that some stuff didn't happen sometimes, but it was a 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:57.960 lot more easier. And I'm telling you five six seven 0:13:58.040 --> 0:13:59.400 years went by like nothing. 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:04.960 So six seven years later, two thousand and two, after 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:08.439 your convictions had already been upheld on appeal. You received 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.480 a letter that must have rocked your world. Tell us 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:11.920 about that. 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.959 I received under the door and myself a recantation letter 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:21.480 from TYI Lord, basically saying, hey, here's a long awaited 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:25.040 piece of information that you've been waiting for. He wanted 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:27.800 to come clean, wanted to clear my name, and so 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:30.520 he did that. He talked about the fact of him 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:34.600 having known me prior to being incarcerated at the juvenile facility. 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:38.680 He talked about his incentives or motive for Lyon, and 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.760 he also saw it as a means to receive less time. 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:45.560 And I do remember that he was pretty insistent on 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:50.160 he wasn't recanting for me. He more so was concerned 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:53.760 about my mother and things of that nature. So for me, 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:56.560 it was like a bittersweet sort of thing at the 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:59.720 time because I was so elated. I was so blown 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:03.440 away by receiving that recantation, but at the same time 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:06.160 I was dealing with the loss of my mother. That 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:08.520 was hard, you know, I don't really talk about that. 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:13.760 Yeah, that's it's hard to imagine being stuck inside and 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:16.640 getting the worst news that you could get like that, 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:19.480 And what a crazy whirlwind of events, right if you 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:21.720 get that worst news, and then you get this letter 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:25.040 that you'd probably been maybe not even allowing yourself to 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:29.320 hope would come, but it came. So this guy who 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:31.760 had literally put you in prison for the rest of 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:34.280 your life not only sent this letter, but he also 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:37.560 signed an affter David under Oath, saying that he had 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:41.440 falsely implicated you because he thought that you had told 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:46.520 the prosecution about Lloyd admitting in the juvenile detention center 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:49.720 that he had taken part of the crime. So then 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:53.400 your lawyer, Robert Gamberg, filed a post conviction petition for 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.480 a new trial and was granted the hearing. Now he 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.960 had collected a significant amount of evidence to defend your innocence, 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:02.800 statements from two different people who were in the juvenile 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:05.960 detention center back in ninety four who overheard Lloyd say 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:09.160 that he was going to falsely accuse and implicate you, 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:13.640 and this lawyer Gamberg obtained a statement from a prison inmate, 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.720 Bryant Miles, who said that Russell Q. Wilson admitted that 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.760 he and Lloyd had committed the crime and that Lloyd 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:24.120 was the gunman. BINGO, right, This is powerful stuff. This 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:27.800 is where it takes a crazy turn. In two thousand 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:31.640 and seven. Lloyd was prepared to testify by a video conference, 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:36.760 but the prosecution had some dirty tricks a DOA prosecutor 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:40.800 threatened to charge Lloyd with perjury and retry him for 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:44.840 the murder if he persisted in his recantation, and the 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:48.560 judge conducting the hearing became concerned that Lloyd was opening 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:51.920 himself up to a perjury prosecution, which he was, so 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:55.120 he appointed a lawyer to represent Lloyd and continued the hearing, 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:58.440 and then the prosecutor got just what they wanted, right. 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.600 The hearing resumed two thousand and eight, but Lloyd took 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:05.240 the Fifth Amendment and you were sent back to prison. 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:05.680 Yep. 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.479 What a freaking turn of events that is. And just 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:10.720 so people understand, if he had lost, if they had 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:12.639 gone and done what they said they were going to 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:14.960 do and follow through on their threat, he could have 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:16.680 gone back to prison for the rest of his life 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:18.120 instead of fifteen to thirty seven. 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:20.800 Am I right, yeah, because that was part of his 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:24.280 agreement with the distric Attorney's office, is that it turned 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:28.080 out that he testified falsely, perject testimony or anything like that, 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:30.800 the dealers off the table and he would have been 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:33.800 prosecuted to the full assistant of the law. But the 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:36.520 problem with that is, as I see the District Attorney's 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:40.600 office in Pennsylvania, they have immunity, and so when they 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:44.479 utilize his agreement as a threat to him, which it was, 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:48.199 it takes away the power of the balance of justice 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:50.960 and the scales of justice because now even though he 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:53.480 wanted to do the right thing and tell the truth, 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:56.360 he's precluded from doing that because it's like, hey, I'm 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:58.720 not going to go to jail and exchange for helping 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:01.840 this guy to get out. Didn't leave him any real 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:05.200 room to do the right thing. And dic attorney, who 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.240 were instrumental in seeing to that he plied the fifth. 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:10.639 Their feet aren't held to the fire or anything like 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:11.800 that because they have immunity. 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:16.959 Yeah, here's this guy, Lloyd, who finally found his moral 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.480 compass or his some kind of courage to come forward 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:23.600 and tell the truth. And the prosecutor is like, Nope, 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:26.359 we don't want the truth. Yep, we're not interested in 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:29.480 no kind of truth. We're happy the way things are. 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:34.040 And this takes us to February of twenty eighteen. So 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:37.120 now you've been in for what twenty three years. 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:40.880 Yeah, approximately, Yeah. 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:42.280 And so there have been a number of Supreme Court 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:44.439 decisions in the past couple decades that have had a 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:47.719 significant positive impact on juvenile justice, and I want to 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:50.760 just break those down for a second. They include that 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:53.680 Back in two thousand and five Roper versus Simmons, the 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.720 United States Supreme Court ruled that the death penalty was 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:01.280 unconstitutional for juveniles, and then in two twenty ten, with 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:06.000 Graham versus Florida, the US Supreme Court invalidated life without 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:11.000 parole sentences for juveniles and non homicide incidents. In twenty twelve, 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:14.679 in Miller versus Alabama, the US Supreme Court ruled that 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:18.920 mandatory life without parole sentences imposed on juveniles were unconstitutional 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:22.879 in all cases. And then in twenty sixteen, in Montgomery 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:26.320 versus Louisiana, the US Supreme Court made the holding they 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:31.240 made in Miller retroactive. And so due to that very ruling, 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.360 you received a reduced sentence that made you immediately eligible 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:40.480 for parole and common Please Court Judge Barbara McDermott's lover fantastic. 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:41.680 You love her right love. 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:47.080 And Judge McDermott, if you're listening, we're sending you a 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:50.640 big shout out and our respect for having done what 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:54.199 you did. It's important that we recognize when people in 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:57.399 positions of power do what's good and right. So she 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:01.119 noted that you could quote continue to fight on the 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:03.600 street instead of in prison end quote. She met, of course, 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:06.320 fight to prove your innocence. But on August fourteenth to 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:10.080 twenty eighteen, you finally came home. What was that like 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.080 when you just walked out the door. Was there a 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:14.640 big crowd to meet you? 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.600 What did you do? Oh? Man, Well, at the time, 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:22.720 there was one very significant, very special person there did 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:25.920 meet me, as my wife. She was right there, walked 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:28.040 out with a box in my hand, gave her a 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.680 big hug, and I kind of like trot it as 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:32.960 fast as I could in the direction away from the 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:35.920 prison because in my mind, I felt like, at any moment, 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:39.000 they're going to say, hey, Johnny, listen, we made a mistake. Man, 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:40.840 you gotta come back. So I wanted to get the 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:42.880 hell out of here. She said, hey, man, you moving 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:44.800 kind of quickly, and I'm like, well, you know, if 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:46.080 you want to get with me, you better come on. 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:49.359 But yeah, man, for me, that moment was like a 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:53.080 breath of fresh air and a burning building. I felt 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:56.080 like I had absolutely won when I walked out those 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.920 doors and I got in that car with those prison attire, 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:02.040 and we drove down that rope. 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:14.520 Let's not forget that even though you were free, you 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:17.080 weren't really free, right, you were still a convicted murderer 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:20.960 and all the things that go with that. But in 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:23.879 another good turn of events, there was a new DA 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:27.159 in town. His name was Larry Krasner, and Larry Krasner 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:29.919 was a friend of mine and a great man. He 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:33.240 had by this time established one of the most robust 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:37.240 conviction integrity units, run by Patricia Cummings, in the country. 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:42.359 And they reviewed your case and they found all the 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:46.800 statements that corroborated your innocence. And so June twenty fourth, 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:50.040 twenty nineteen, less than a year after you were freed, 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:54.159 all the convictions were vacated and all the charges were dismissed. 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:55.320 How did that feel? 0:21:56.359 --> 0:21:59.960 Well? Let me start off first by saying to Patricia Cummins, 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:04.679 phenomenal woman, and to Larry Krasner, shout out to them 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:07.800 virtual hugs. I love those two individuals. I love the 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:09.959 work that they are doing. I take my head off 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:14.160 to them on that particular day where I was exonerated. First, 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:16.840 it took about maybe fifteen minutes. The judge said a 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:20.600 few words. She told me I was exonerated. I accepted it, 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:24.480 and the court went on with its normal daily proceeding. 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:28.520 And I'm like, wow, twenty three years and some change 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:32.359 versus fifteen minutes, and I walked out of the courtroom 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.800