1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: On August tenth, nineteen ninety four, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, seventy 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: eight year old Leonard Jones and twenty seven year old 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: Michelle Brooks sat in a parked car when one male 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: blocked the passenger door and another demanded that Jones get 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: out before shooting and killing him. The two males fled. 6 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: Michelle Brooks initially chose sixteen year old Johnny Barry from 7 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: a photo lineup, but when she rescinded that idea at 8 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: a preliminary hearing, the charges were dropped. Within a few weeks, 9 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: Johnny was inexplicably rearrested for the crime of which he 10 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: had just been cleared, and while in juvenile detention, he 11 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: met fifteen year old Taheed Lloyd, who admitted that he 12 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: was one of the two attackers in the Jones killing, 13 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: but when he wouldn't agree to clear Johnny's name, the 14 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: two boys fought. Lloyd was later arrested on an unrelated charge, 15 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: and a gun in his possession was linked to the 16 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: Jones murder. However, Lloyd mistakenly believed that Johnny had implicated him, 17 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: and as retribution, falsely named Johnny Berry as his accomplice 18 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: and Jones's shooter. At trial, Michelle Brooks's testimony was shaky 19 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: at best, but with Lloyd's testimony, Johnny was convicted and 20 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: sentenced to life without parole. Years later, Lloyd admitted his lies, 21 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: but at a hearing when the prosecution threatened to charge 22 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: Lloyd with perjury and retry him for the murder, Lloyd 23 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: refused to officially recant. It took a slew of Supreme 24 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: Court rulings on juvenile life sentences and a review by 25 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: Philadelphia's Conviction Integrity Unit to finally set Johnny Barry free 26 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: after nearly twenty five long years behind bars. This is 27 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your host, 28 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: Jason Flahman. This episode is probably gonna with your perceptions 29 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: of justice. I mean, there are so many things wrong 30 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: with this case. You're gonna feel like you need a 31 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 1: chiropractic from your head spinning around. It's an incredible story 32 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: of an incredible man named Johnny Berry, and it goes 33 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: all the way to the United States Supreme Court decisions, 34 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: to lying witnesses, and a corrupt system that really ignored 35 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: what should have been absolutely crystal clear from day one. 36 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: So without further ado, Johnny Berry, Welcome to Wronfuel Conviction. 37 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you very much. Jason. 38 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean, I'm so sorry you're here because 39 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: of what you had to go through, But I'm obviously 40 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: on the flip side, I'm super happy that you're free 41 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: and out and have been totally exonerated and vindicated and 42 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: are now living your best life. So okay, what was 43 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 1: your life like before all of this insanity? 44 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 2: Growing up in Philadelphia, Wes Philadelphia, life was simple. It 45 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 2: was fun. I am the eldest of five children. My 46 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 2: father was active member in the military. My mother was 47 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: a stay at home mom. We were poor, definitely didn't 48 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 2: have much, but what we did have was love, dedication 49 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 2: to one another, and we did our best to make 50 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 2: things work. 51 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: It sounds like people living that kind of life all 52 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 1: over the country, right, just struggling to get by day 53 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: to day, but having good parents and lots of love 54 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 1: in the household. And so you were sixteen years old 55 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: at the time of this horrible crime went on August tenth, 56 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four. Leonard Jones, who was seventy eight years 57 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: old and Michelle Brooks, who was just twenty seven, were 58 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: sitting in a van in the Parkside neighborhood at Philadelphia, 59 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: when two very young men approached the van. Right one 60 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: of them blocked the passenger side door from opening, preventing 61 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: Michelle from getting out, and then the other one approached 62 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: mister Jones with a handgun and yelled at him to 63 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: get out, but before he could even comply. I don't 64 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: forget he was not a young guy, seventy eight years old. 65 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: He was shot and killed and then both of the 66 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: men fled. And before we dive in to the investigation, 67 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: it's important to note that you, Johnny, had had some 68 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: brussures with the law prior to this. 69 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: Is that right, Yes? Unfortunately, yeah, I was specifically involved 70 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 2: with and I'm not proud of the selling of drugs 71 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: and things of that nature. 72 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: Right, So you weren't exactly a choir boy. But that 73 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: also doesn't make you a murderer. And it is relevant though, 74 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: because it means that you were known to the police. 75 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: And so as the investigation got underway, Michelle Brooks, the 76 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: twenty seven year old woman from the van, she described 77 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: the man who had held her door shut and said 78 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: he had a chipped front tooth, and then police showed 79 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: her a photographic lineup, and from that lineup she picked you, 80 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: and at that time you did have a slightly chipped 81 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: front tooth, so police arrested you. But on August thirty first, 82 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four, Michelle Brooks came to the preliminary hearing 83 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 1: and when she saw you, she told police that you 84 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: were not the person who had held the door shut. 85 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: You're just not the guy. So naturally the charges were 86 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: dismissed and you were freed, and that should have been 87 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: the end of it for you right there, you know, 88 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:07,359 Speaker 1: But a few weeks later you were rearrested for the 89 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: same crime and sent back to Julie. So, Johnny, this 90 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: is crazy, right, I mean, phill us in, do you 91 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: have any idea why they rearrested you. 92 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: I have a theory. It was a time period where 93 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 2: Philadelphia was being plagued with crime, and politicians and public 94 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 2: officials were like their feet held to the fire, like, hey, 95 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 2: we got to do something about this. I was a 96 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 2: known individual to authorities. I was in the streets, I 97 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 2: was involved with gang activity, I sold drugs, and I 98 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 2: believe that the police specifically honed in on me. They 99 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 2: had me, they didn't have any other individual at that 100 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 2: particular time, and they wanted me and they were stuck 101 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 2: on me. And that's why we don't have any or 102 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 2: never came up with any type of evidence as to 103 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 2: why I was rearrested. 104 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess that's not completely out of the realm 105 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: of possibilities. It was Philadelphia in the nineties, after all, 106 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: when both crime and police miscond were just rampant. I mean, 107 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: but what happens next is even crazier. So there you 108 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: are back in juvenile detention and you hear about a 109 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: fifteen year old kid named Tyeth Lloyd who had been 110 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: a juvie on an unrelated charge during your last short stint. 111 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: Now he was still there and some guys, but aheadn't 112 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: told you what he had said after you had left 113 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 1: the last time. 114 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was incarcerated in the juvenile facility, and 115 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 2: once there, the individuals who were there and had been 116 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 2: introduced to me, so to speak from my time prior, 117 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 2: the whole thing was, hey, what are you doing here? 118 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 2: Why are you back? And I'm like, I have no idea. 119 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 2: They say, okay, well, by the way, do you know 120 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 2: this guy over here indicating Tayhi Lloyd, and I'm like, no, 121 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 2: I don't know him, never met him before, you know, 122 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 2: what's up with him? They're like, hey, when you left, 123 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 2: he told us that he and his friend had committed 124 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: the murder and not you, and that you really didn't 125 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 2: do it. So, hearing that, I approached him and I 126 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 2: was like, hey, I'm hearing that you had something to 127 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 2: do with this homicide that I'm here for. I didn't 128 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 2: do it. You know I didn't do it. Can you 129 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 2: help me with it? His exact words to me was, 130 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 2: I know who did it. I didn't do it, but 131 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 2: I'm not saying anything. And at that point I said, 132 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: or you're not saying anything? Oh no, you bought this. 133 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 2: We got into a physical altercation. We started to fight, 134 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 2: and the officers in that vicinity came and they broke 135 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: the fight up, separated us, but we had bad blood 136 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 2: between us from that point on because I was so 137 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 2: bent on. Man, I'm in this freaking hell hole for 138 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 2: something you and your friend or whoever it was, did 139 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: and I'm not supposed to be here. 140 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: And do you remember did Lloyd have chip teeth like 141 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: the witness Michelle Brooks had mentioned. 142 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: TYI, Lloyd had a very very identifiable two front chip teeth. 143 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 2: I could have actually taken the tip of your pinky 144 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 2: finger and stuck it through that chip in front of 145 00:07:58,280 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 2: his two teeth. 146 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: Well, I don't know that anybody in your situation would 147 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: have acted any differently. I mean not every reason to 148 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: be angry and to want to try to do what 149 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: you could do in that situation to extricate yourself. Right, 150 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: And here's this guy who holds the key, and he's 151 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: right in front of you, and then he actually turned 152 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: in the complete opposite direction. What I'm talking about is 153 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: Lloyd was arrested several months later and they found him 154 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: in possession of a handgun that was linked to the murder. 155 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: Ballistics confirmed this, and he thought that you had implicated 156 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: him because you had known that he had done it 157 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: from the talk inside the prison, and so he went 158 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: ahead and implicated you in the crime, almost like street 159 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: justice or something like that. Right, And as happens in 160 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: these cases time and time again, he agreed to plead 161 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: guilty in exchange for a fifteenth to thirty seven year 162 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: sentence for a murder that he did commit. So he 163 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: saved himself from a life sentence changed for lying and 164 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: presenting false testimony against you. Well, now what happens next 165 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: is predictable, right, You get charged with murder, robbery, conspiracy, 166 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: and possessing instruments of crime. So now you're facing the 167 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: worst imaginable scenario. What was going through your mind when 168 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: you found out you were being charged with all these 169 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: terrible crimes. 170 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 2: When I realized that I was being charged for this 171 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 2: murder and that he was bearing testimony against me, I 172 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: was horrified. I still remained optimistic that I was going 173 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 2: to go to trial and beat the case because I 174 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:32,839 Speaker 2: didn't do it. 175 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: And so let's go to the trial. So this is 176 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: September nineteen ninety five. He had already spent the year 177 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: in jail awaiting trial. And then Michelle Brooks. So Michelle Brooks, 178 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 1: remember was the witness who was in this vehicle at 179 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: the time of the murder. Now, her testimony was conflicting 180 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: and confusing. She identified you as the person who held 181 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: the door shut during the robbery, but then she also 182 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: identified you as the gunman, which of course that couldn't 183 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: both be true. And she also said that she had 184 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: told the police previously that you weren't involved in the crime. 185 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: And then she restated that in her testimony. So if 186 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: I'm on the jury, I'm going wait a minute, there's 187 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: three totally different stories here. But I think the nail 188 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: in your conference, so to speak, was that Lloyd testified 189 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: saying that you and he had committed the crime. He 190 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: knew full well who had committed the crime with him, 191 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: and that guy, his actual co conspirator, remained on the 192 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: streets as a result of them taking you in his place. 193 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: So who was your attorney and did they mount any 194 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: kind of a defense for you. 195 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 2: My attorney at the time was Donald Michael Podova. I 196 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: will say that he did his best. He was quote appointed, overworked, underpaid, 197 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 2: and he tried his best to save this young boy's life. 198 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 2: And it was so much that he could have done 199 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 2: with a so called co defendant who pointed the finger 200 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: and said, hey, yeah, I was a part of this crime, 201 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 2: but he done it with me. Give me a deal, 202 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 2: you know. 203 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: So predictably, you were convicted of murder, robbery, possessing instruments 204 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: of a crime, and conspiracy and sentenced to life in 205 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: prison without the possibility of parole. What was that awful 206 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: moment like when the jury came back in. 207 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 2: With the verdict. When I was convicted and they handed 208 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 2: down that life sentence, tears came down my eyes like 209 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: a baby. I looked back at my mother at the time, 210 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 2: who was living, and I cried because I couldn't believe 211 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,359 Speaker 2: that the system had felt my family and my community 212 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 2: and me, and at that point I just felt absolutely helpless. 213 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 3: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company, 214 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,559 Speaker 3: and by Accenture, a global professional services company with leading 215 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 3: capabilities in digital, cloud and secure Working to reform the 216 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 3: criminal justice system is a key pillar of the AIG 217 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 3: pro Bono program, which provides free legal services and other 218 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 3: support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need. 219 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 3: As part of Eccentsure's commitment to racial and civil justice. 220 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 3: Accenture's Legal Access program provides pro bono legal services in 221 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 3: partnership with more than forty organizations, bringing meaningful change to 222 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 3: people and communities worldwide. 223 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: When I first got to prison, they sent me to 224 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 2: state correctional institution Gratifford. That place was like another world. 225 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 2: When I was eighteen at the time. When I first 226 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 2: entered into grated Ford, it was like halways full of people, 227 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 2: full of people like close jury loud, and I thought, 228 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 2: who are all these people? Wow, there's a lot of 229 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 2: counselors that were here, because I saw very few people 230 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 2: who had on the state issued clothing. Well what it was, 231 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 2: were all inmates, and at that particular time, we were 232 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 2: allowed to wear our street clothing. So the hallways was 233 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 2: filled with inmates or residents as I like to call them. 234 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 2: At that time, Prisidon was a lot more ran by 235 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 2: the residents, more so than it is now. At that time, 236 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 2: the residents had more control over the institutions and there 237 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 2: was a lot more liberties, more freedom. It was more 238 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: volatile than it is now. But on the other hand, 239 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 2: it had like a balance to the police. The residents 240 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 2: kind of ran it, but they maintained a balance, so 241 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 2: people didn't just do anything. You know, there were checks 242 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 2: and balances if you've done something. You know. Administration kind 243 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 2: of worked hand to hand with some of the residents 244 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 2: and we kind of figured it out. That didn't mean 245 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 2: that some stuff didn't happen sometimes, but it was a 246 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 2: lot more easier. And I'm telling you five six seven 247 00:13:58,040 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 2: years went by like nothing. 248 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: So six seven years later, two thousand and two, after 249 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 1: your convictions had already been upheld on appeal. You received 250 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: a letter that must have rocked your world. Tell us 251 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: about that. 252 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,959 Speaker 2: I received under the door and myself a recantation letter 253 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 2: from TYI Lord, basically saying, hey, here's a long awaited 254 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 2: piece of information that you've been waiting for. He wanted 255 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 2: to come clean, wanted to clear my name, and so 256 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 2: he did that. He talked about the fact of him 257 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 2: having known me prior to being incarcerated at the juvenile facility. 258 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 2: He talked about his incentives or motive for Lyon, and 259 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 2: he also saw it as a means to receive less time. 260 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 2: And I do remember that he was pretty insistent on 261 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 2: he wasn't recanting for me. He more so was concerned 262 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 2: about my mother and things of that nature. So for me, 263 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 2: it was like a bittersweet sort of thing at the 264 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: time because I was so elated. I was so blown 265 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 2: away by receiving that recantation, but at the same time 266 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 2: I was dealing with the loss of my mother. That 267 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: was hard, you know, I don't really talk about that. 268 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it's hard to imagine being stuck inside and 269 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: getting the worst news that you could get like that, 270 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: And what a crazy whirlwind of events, right if you 271 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: get that worst news, and then you get this letter 272 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: that you'd probably been maybe not even allowing yourself to 273 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: hope would come, but it came. So this guy who 274 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: had literally put you in prison for the rest of 275 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: your life not only sent this letter, but he also 276 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: signed an affter David under Oath, saying that he had 277 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: falsely implicated you because he thought that you had told 278 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: the prosecution about Lloyd admitting in the juvenile detention center 279 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: that he had taken part of the crime. So then 280 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: your lawyer, Robert Gamberg, filed a post conviction petition for 281 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: a new trial and was granted the hearing. Now he 282 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: had collected a significant amount of evidence to defend your innocence, 283 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: statements from two different people who were in the juvenile 284 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: detention center back in ninety four who overheard Lloyd say 285 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: that he was going to falsely accuse and implicate you, 286 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: and this lawyer Gamberg obtained a statement from a prison inmate, 287 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: Bryant Miles, who said that Russell Q. Wilson admitted that 288 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: he and Lloyd had committed the crime and that Lloyd 289 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: was the gunman. BINGO, right, This is powerful stuff. This 290 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: is where it takes a crazy turn. In two thousand 291 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: and seven. Lloyd was prepared to testify by a video conference, 292 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: but the prosecution had some dirty tricks a DOA prosecutor 293 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: threatened to charge Lloyd with perjury and retry him for 294 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: the murder if he persisted in his recantation, and the 295 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: judge conducting the hearing became concerned that Lloyd was opening 296 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: himself up to a perjury prosecution, which he was, so 297 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: he appointed a lawyer to represent Lloyd and continued the hearing, 298 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: and then the prosecutor got just what they wanted, right. 299 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: The hearing resumed two thousand and eight, but Lloyd took 300 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: the Fifth Amendment and you were sent back to prison. 301 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 2: Yep. 302 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,479 Speaker 1: What a freaking turn of events that is. And just 303 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: so people understand, if he had lost, if they had 304 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: gone and done what they said they were going to 305 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: do and follow through on their threat, he could have 306 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: gone back to prison for the rest of his life 307 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: instead of fifteen to thirty seven. 308 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 2: Am I right, yeah, because that was part of his 309 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 2: agreement with the distric Attorney's office, is that it turned 310 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 2: out that he testified falsely, perject testimony or anything like that, 311 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 2: the dealers off the table and he would have been 312 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 2: prosecuted to the full assistant of the law. But the 313 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 2: problem with that is, as I see the District Attorney's 314 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 2: office in Pennsylvania, they have immunity, and so when they 315 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,479 Speaker 2: utilize his agreement as a threat to him, which it was, 316 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 2: it takes away the power of the balance of justice 317 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 2: and the scales of justice because now even though he 318 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 2: wanted to do the right thing and tell the truth, 319 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,360 Speaker 2: he's precluded from doing that because it's like, hey, I'm 320 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 2: not going to go to jail and exchange for helping 321 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 2: this guy to get out. Didn't leave him any real 322 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 2: room to do the right thing. And dic attorney, who 323 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 2: were instrumental in seeing to that he plied the fifth. 324 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 2: Their feet aren't held to the fire or anything like 325 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 2: that because they have immunity. 326 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, here's this guy, Lloyd, who finally found his moral 327 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: compass or his some kind of courage to come forward 328 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: and tell the truth. And the prosecutor is like, Nope, 329 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: we don't want the truth. Yep, we're not interested in 330 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: no kind of truth. We're happy the way things are. 331 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: And this takes us to February of twenty eighteen. So 332 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 1: now you've been in for what twenty three years. 333 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, approximately, Yeah. 334 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: And so there have been a number of Supreme Court 335 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 1: decisions in the past couple decades that have had a 336 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,719 Speaker 1: significant positive impact on juvenile justice, and I want to 337 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: just break those down for a second. They include that 338 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 1: Back in two thousand and five Roper versus Simmons, the 339 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court ruled that the death penalty was 340 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: unconstitutional for juveniles, and then in two twenty ten, with 341 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: Graham versus Florida, the US Supreme Court invalidated life without 342 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: parole sentences for juveniles and non homicide incidents. In twenty twelve, 343 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 1: in Miller versus Alabama, the US Supreme Court ruled that 344 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 1: mandatory life without parole sentences imposed on juveniles were unconstitutional 345 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: in all cases. And then in twenty sixteen, in Montgomery 346 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: versus Louisiana, the US Supreme Court made the holding they 347 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: made in Miller retroactive. And so due to that very ruling, 348 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 1: you received a reduced sentence that made you immediately eligible 349 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: for parole and common Please Court Judge Barbara McDermott's lover fantastic. 350 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 2: You love her right love. 351 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: And Judge McDermott, if you're listening, we're sending you a 352 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 1: big shout out and our respect for having done what 353 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: you did. It's important that we recognize when people in 354 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: positions of power do what's good and right. So she 355 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: noted that you could quote continue to fight on the 356 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: street instead of in prison end quote. She met, of course, 357 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: fight to prove your innocence. But on August fourteenth to 358 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, you finally came home. What was that like 359 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: when you just walked out the door. Was there a 360 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 1: big crowd to meet you? 361 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 2: What did you do? Oh? Man, Well, at the time, 362 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 2: there was one very significant, very special person there did 363 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 2: meet me, as my wife. She was right there, walked 364 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 2: out with a box in my hand, gave her a 365 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 2: big hug, and I kind of like trot it as 366 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 2: fast as I could in the direction away from the 367 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 2: prison because in my mind, I felt like, at any moment, 368 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 2: they're going to say, hey, Johnny, listen, we made a mistake. Man, 369 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 2: you gotta come back. So I wanted to get the 370 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 2: hell out of here. She said, hey, man, you moving 371 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 2: kind of quickly, and I'm like, well, you know, if 372 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 2: you want to get with me, you better come on. 373 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 2: But yeah, man, for me, that moment was like a 374 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 2: breath of fresh air and a burning building. I felt 375 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 2: like I had absolutely won when I walked out those 376 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 2: doors and I got in that car with those prison attire, 377 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 2: and we drove down that rope. 378 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: Let's not forget that even though you were free, you 379 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: weren't really free, right, you were still a convicted murderer 380 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: and all the things that go with that. But in 381 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: another good turn of events, there was a new DA 382 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 1: in town. His name was Larry Krasner, and Larry Krasner 383 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 1: was a friend of mine and a great man. He 384 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: had by this time established one of the most robust 385 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: conviction integrity units, run by Patricia Cummings, in the country. 386 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: And they reviewed your case and they found all the 387 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: statements that corroborated your innocence. And so June twenty fourth, 388 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, less than a year after you were freed, 389 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 1: all the convictions were vacated and all the charges were dismissed. 390 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: How did that feel? 391 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 2: Well? Let me start off first by saying to Patricia Cummins, 392 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 2: phenomenal woman, and to Larry Krasner, shout out to them 393 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 2: virtual hugs. I love those two individuals. I love the 394 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,959 Speaker 2: work that they are doing. I take my head off 395 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 2: to them on that particular day where I was exonerated. First, 396 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 2: it took about maybe fifteen minutes. The judge said a 397 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 2: few words. She told me I was exonerated. I accepted it, 398 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 2: and the court went on with its normal daily proceeding. 399 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 2: And I'm like, wow, twenty three years and some change 400 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 2: versus fifteen minutes, and I walked out of the courtroom 401 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 2: a freeman. I just felt like I got me back. 402 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 2: I had felt empowered, and I felt like I could 403 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 2: then begin my new life. 404 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: And the Ada tom Gata actually told Judge McDermott that 405 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: had the prosecution allowed Lloyd to testify at the post 406 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: conviction hearing in two thousand and eight, without the threat 407 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: of being prosecuted for perjury, you would have been granted 408 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: a new trial. Those are powerful words that you don't 409 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 1: hear often enough from people like him. 410 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 2: Yep. I actually know him very well, very very decent 411 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 2: person with courage beyond description. So I'm glad that he 412 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 2: has been in addition to that office and changing the 413 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 2: trajectory of the way in which that office had been 414 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 2: running for past thirty or some odd years. 415 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 1: Amen to that as well, and so as many villains 416 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: as there are in this story. It feels like there's 417 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: almost an equal number of heroes, and I'm glad we're 418 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: recognizing them here and now. And then in August of 419 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, you filed a federal civil rights loss. It's 420 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: seeking damages from the city of Philadelphia. And I have 421 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: to say, in all the years I've been doing this work, 422 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: one of the questions that I'm asked the most is 423 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,120 Speaker 1: people they always want to know that the person who 424 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: was wrongfully convicted, like, surely they got compensation that millions 425 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 1: of dollars and like an apology, right, And unfortunately that's 426 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: not what happens in far too many of these cases. Actually, 427 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 1: in the large majority of these cases, and yours is 428 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: one of them, am I right? 429 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 2: Yeah? Actually, a lot of cases do not become successful 430 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 2: on civil wrongful conviction suit. They just aren't successful. And 431 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 2: it's a year after year process fighting tooth and nail 432 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 2: to be compensated. 433 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 1: So Pennsylvania is one of the states that doesn't have 434 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,479 Speaker 1: a compensation statue, you know, and the Innocents Project has 435 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 1: been leading the charge to pass compensation statutes and laws 436 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: around the country. I think they're now thirty two or 437 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: thirty three states that have them. Even then, they vary 438 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: widely and some of them provide very very little no 439 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: matter what you went through. But Pennsylvania doesn't have a law, 440 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: and so you haven't received any compensation whatsoever for your 441 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: twenty three years in prison. 442 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 2: No civil lawsuits are still on the way, but as 443 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 2: far as the state saying, hey, look, we apologize, we 444 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 2: acknowledge you've been wrongfully convicted, and as a gester of 445 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 2: you being able to kid on your out here, no, 446 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:02,120 Speaker 2: that hasn't happened. 447 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 1: Well, listen, hopefully it's not too far off, and hopefully 448 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: you will be successful in one of these civil suits, 449 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: so you definitely deserve it. In the meantime, though, I'm 450 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 1: happy to say that you have welcomed the baby boy 451 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: into the world. 452 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 2: Right, yep, it's my baby boy. His name is Yusuf. 453 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 2: He's just turned two. He's so advanced. Man, it's so smart. 454 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,959 Speaker 1: That's awesome. That's a beautiful scene. And you have a 455 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: cleaning business now as well. 456 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 2: Right. I work alongside of another individual, and what we 457 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 2: do is we can clean commercial and residential properties and 458 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 2: then we also do clean outs so individuals wann't like 459 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 2: debris and things like that moved and then sense of 460 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 2: the dumpster and things like that. We do our best 461 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 2: to provide that service. 462 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: And so, Johnny, for people who are listening out there, 463 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: who are wanting to help, and we know how expensive 464 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: it is raising a little kid. Is there a way 465 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: that people can reach out to you about your cleaning 466 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: business if they're in the Philadelphia area, or to make 467 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: a speech to help, you know, to help cover your 468 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: expenses while you're waiting for what we hope will be 469 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: a successful outcome of a civil case eventually. Is there 470 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: a way for people to contact you? 471 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 2: You can contact me directly. My email is my name 472 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,959 Speaker 2: backwards Barry Johnny eleven eleven at gmail dot com. 473 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 1: All right, so if anyone can help, has the ability 474 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 1: to help, and is willing to help, please go to 475 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: the link in the bio. We're gonna have Johnny's contact 476 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: info there to help Johnny and his family. Of course, 477 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 1: now we have the part of our show that I 478 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: love the most, and I think our audience does too. 479 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 1: We call it, of course, closing arguments, and Johnny, here's 480 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: how it works. It's very very simple. First of all, 481 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: I thank you again for being here with us today, 482 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: courageously sharing your insane story and your experience in the 483 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 1: service of others. And now I'm just going to kick back, 484 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: turn off my microphone, leave my headphones on, and of 485 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: course leave your microphone on so you can share with 486 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: us any other thoughts that you want to impart to 487 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: our large and growing audience. 488 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, and I do appreciate being here. 489 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 2: The one thing that I'm focusing on right now here 490 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania is hopefully getting the legislatures to realize the 491 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 2: importance of enacting a law which would allow for parole 492 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 2: eligibility for people who are serving life sentences and deserve 493 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 2: to see the parole board. I think it's important for 494 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 2: a number of reasons. One because to me, if you 495 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 2: really do the numbers, it's cost efficient. It costs about 496 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 2: in upwards of maybe thirty seven to forty thousand dollars 497 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 2: the house and inmate annually, and if the intimate or 498 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 2: resident is geriatric or in some other type of state 499 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 2: where they need assistance, it can run you in up 500 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 2: with some hundreds of thousands of dollars. So it's cost efficient. Also, 501 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 2: if you really look at these statistics for an individual 502 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 2: who has been commuted after serving a life sentence or 503 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,199 Speaker 2: has been pardoned or has been released on parole, or 504 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 2: some other type of situation like that. The recidivism break 505 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 2: for that type of individual is less than one percent. 506 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 2: So statistics have shown that these type of individuals, this 507 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 2: class of people mostly do not reoffend. The statistics show 508 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 2: is less than one percent. So I'll call on the legislature. 509 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 2: I call on their constituents. It makes sense, man, do 510 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 2: the sensible thing, and that a legislation to say parole eligibility. 511 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 2: That means an individual would have a chance to see 512 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 2: the parole board and then leave it to the parole 513 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 2: board to make that decision based on that individual's case 514 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 2: and then also what that person has been doing while 515 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 2: in cons of it. And I put that number in 516 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 2: maybe twenty five years. So that's what I would say, 517 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 2: Support a bill for parole eligibility. 518 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Rafel Conviction. I'd like to 519 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn, 520 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: and Kevin Wartis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music 521 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated 522 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram 523 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and 524 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava 525 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow 526 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flam. 527 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good podcasts 528 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one