Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording
Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters
Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives.
Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The
Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure
Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I
Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season.
Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and
Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find
Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt
Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the
Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality,
Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious.
Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know
Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl
Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. So how does a half American, half
Speaker 1: Nicaraguan party girl from New Orleans there's absolutely no journalism experience, right,
Speaker 1: the biggest story of the eighties, That's what Journalista is
Speaker 1: all about. I'm a woman, wife beater T shirt, not
Speaker 1: wearing a brawl curses like a sailor. I got balls
Speaker 1: bigger than any man. Dan Rather used to call me
Speaker 1: his secret weapon. Listen to Journalista every Tuesday on the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: They say history is written by the victors, but you
Speaker 1: know what they left out A hell of a lot
Speaker 1: of juicy stuff. Ah, we all know who invented that, right,
Speaker 1: we'll think again. Truth is Alexander Graham Bell stole the
Speaker 1: idea for the telephone and then claimed it as his own.
Speaker 1: We're going to uncover the forgotten pieces of history you
Speaker 1: didn't know you need to know. Listen to the Backstory
Speaker 1: with me Patty Steele twice a week on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. After the
Speaker 1: massacre occurred, but before her arrest, mother Angela Wagner took
Speaker 1: to social media to speak out about the victims. Here's
Speaker 1: an excerpt from one of those posts. What has happened
Speaker 1: to us in the past few weeks has been devastating
Speaker 1: and it will follow us for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 1: Hannah was a daughter to me. I loved her dearly.
Speaker 1: Her laws still hurts to this day. We want justice
Speaker 1: like everyone else. Let's try to find the real monsters
Speaker 1: who've done this. Turns out she was the monster. This
Speaker 1: is the Pip did Massacre. A production of Katie Studios
Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio, Season three, Episode two Monsters Courtney Armstrong, a
Speaker 1: television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Ledecker and Jeff Shane,
Speaker 1: and preparation for this season, we've been speaking to many
Speaker 1: sources in and around Pike County who would not go
Speaker 1: on the record before, probably because they were scared, but
Speaker 1: now they are ready to talk. In some cases they
Speaker 1: were fearing retribution, including those close to Angela. There are
Speaker 1: so many perspectives on Mom Angela Wagner, and it begs
Speaker 1: the question is it possible for a human being to
Speaker 1: be all things at once. Throughout all of these conversations
Speaker 1: and interviews, we've learned a lot more about the victims,
Speaker 1: the Rodent family, and the alleged killers, the Wagners. This
Speaker 1: includes other theories and information that goes generations deep, and
Speaker 1: some of it has far reaching and sometimes nefarious tentacles.
Speaker 1: Here's what we know about Angela Wagner. She had a
Speaker 1: mother named Rita Newcome. I actually met her in person,
Speaker 1: was in her home just days after she was released.
Speaker 1: And she was married to a man named Pug Carter,
Speaker 1: Angela's father. They at some point divorced. Rita remarried and
Speaker 1: had a second child, twenty years younger, her half brother,
Speaker 1: Chris Newcomb. Chris has agreed to speak with us for
Speaker 1: the podcast on the record for the very first time.
Speaker 1: Has now a good time? Do you have a minute? Well,
Speaker 1: what would you wanting to know? You are? Angela's half
Speaker 1: brother explained that all to me, like how you're related
Speaker 1: and how much younger you are. Angela is my half
Speaker 1: sister from my mom's first marriage. We got the same mom.
Speaker 1: She is twenty years older than I am. Well, here's
Speaker 1: my backstory that I can give for your radio thing.
Speaker 1: I grew up with George and Jake. Like my brothers.
Speaker 1: I was always closer to George than I was with Jake.
Speaker 1: George would do anything in the world for anybody out
Speaker 1: have never in my life thought this out of him. Jake,
Speaker 1: on the other hand, I'd have never thought it out
Speaker 1: of him either. But he's always been a little odd.
Speaker 1: I mean, he just always has been. My sister met
Speaker 1: here never really got along that well. Jake ain't no
Speaker 1: better in my opinion, and I got nothing for him
Speaker 1: at all. Billy's Billy. He's always been Billy. I mean,
Speaker 1: everybody was trying to say, and he might have been
Speaker 1: the brains of the operation that some bitches stam time.
Speaker 1: He couldn't hit the ground with his hat three tries.
Speaker 1: So you didn't really grow up with her. I never
Speaker 1: grew up with her at all, hardly. I mean when
Speaker 1: I wasn't even a year old, I was like nine,
Speaker 1: ten months old, she got pregnant with George, her oldest boy,
Speaker 1: which would be my nephew. How long did you see
Speaker 1: any of them? George, Jake, Candel or Billy. And back
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, hello, I was always I
Speaker 1: had to go over and spend the night for two
Speaker 1: three weeks at a time. Oh wow, Now I spent
Speaker 1: several summers over there. And when we got older and
Speaker 1: stuff like that, I'd see George when ever he swung
Speaker 1: by or he called and say, hey, we're gonna go hunting,
Speaker 1: or we're gonna move fishing, so we'd all go out
Speaker 1: and do that. So you are grew up with Jake
Speaker 1: and George being your peers. Oh yeah, yeah, we grew
Speaker 1: up more like brothers than we did uncle and nephews.
Speaker 1: I mean, we as close as hell. When these kids.
Speaker 1: She'd treat me as one of the kids. But it just,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it seemed cold. Whenever she had to
Speaker 1: do something for me. It wasn't like a like a
Speaker 1: warming feeling, like you know, here I want I want
Speaker 1: to help you have fun, or I want to help
Speaker 1: you out do this. It was just cold. Was she
Speaker 1: liked that with the boys too? Are just yell? Not
Speaker 1: really just made Mainly, I don't think she liked me
Speaker 1: that much. Why why do you think that is? I
Speaker 1: don't know. I didn't like her either, so I kind
Speaker 1: of worked out. I never looked into it. My sister
Speaker 1: was very controlling person. Whenever I was around. She always
Speaker 1: tried to control every aspect that I did, and when
Speaker 1: I pretty much told her, go to hell and that
Speaker 1: was the end of it. But I mean she pretty
Speaker 1: much control every aspect of their life, right down to
Speaker 1: their social media, their Facebook, their message or Twitter, they're
Speaker 1: fucking uh. Their dating sites. They had dating sites, and
Speaker 1: she actually had the information for their dating sites. She
Speaker 1: had to passwords to it. No. Yes, So when you
Speaker 1: were a kid and you would spend summers there or
Speaker 1: extended periods of time, Angela was your sister. But I
Speaker 1: imagine treated you like a mom. You know, should probably
Speaker 1: helped cook for you and treated you like one of
Speaker 1: the boys. Was she kind to you that or was
Speaker 1: she always judge? Uh? Kind of a mixture of both.
Speaker 1: She was kind of judge, kind of fake. What do
Speaker 1: you mean by that? It just seemed like she would
Speaker 1: be nice, but it was all like an act because
Speaker 1: she always told me she said I'll never amount to anything.
Speaker 1: And she didn't tell just me that, she told other
Speaker 1: people that. She said that I'd never amount to nothing
Speaker 1: and I'd probably end up spending the rest of my
Speaker 1: life in jail. I almost wanted I answer a phone
Speaker 1: call from her just to laugh at her. Wow. You
Speaker 1: mentioned you and Angela were raised differently. How would you
Speaker 1: describe how you were raised and how would you say
Speaker 1: how she was raised. I wouldn't around whenever she was
Speaker 1: being raised, you know, I wouldn't even have thought then
Speaker 1: mom was still married to her dad, Pug or Eddie
Speaker 1: Edward Carter. He was always a good old guy. I
Speaker 1: knew him right, Will do you like Pug? Oh? I
Speaker 1: thought the world Pug Eddie Carter, better known as Pug,
Speaker 1: was Angela Wagner's father. We didn't know much about him
Speaker 1: or Angela's upbringing and how that might have shaped the
Speaker 1: person she is until now. Here's Jeff speaking to an
Speaker 1: anonymous friend of the Carter family who reached out to us.
Speaker 1: Your message is really interesting to me. I would love
Speaker 1: to just kind of like hear all of it, and
Speaker 1: now you found this information out on what your take
Speaker 1: on all of it is. I grew up in South Webster,
Speaker 1: where the Wagners came back from Alaska's where they moved to,
Speaker 1: and the actual house that they lived in was the
Speaker 1: house of her dad. I knew him as a Pug Carter.
Speaker 1: He always wore this like metal brace and he walked
Speaker 1: with a limp. What I heard from my dad was
Speaker 1: that he would climb electric poles and steal copper or
Speaker 1: something off of the poles, and he'd gotten electric uted
Speaker 1: and it affected his walking. When money would get tight,
Speaker 1: b block would go like pawn things a little, but
Speaker 1: he ran like a I guess it would be an
Speaker 1: illegal pawnshop where people would go take like small tools,
Speaker 1: lown equivament, you know, stuff like that. I think he'd
Speaker 1: gotten in trouble for forjury. One time. People would take
Speaker 1: their vehicle titles and pawned them to him for money,
Speaker 1: and he got to where he would like he would
Speaker 1: forge the titles and sell the vehicles, so people were
Speaker 1: like losing cars. So somebody eventually took him to court
Speaker 1: for that, and he'd done that for several years before
Speaker 1: he got in trouble for him, and that's the reason
Speaker 1: my dad quit feeling with him. Explain that to me.
Speaker 1: So I would take my car title and sell it
Speaker 1: to him. He would pawn it him. So you would
Speaker 1: give him your title and he would give you a
Speaker 1: couple hundred dollars and you'd pay it back on Once
Speaker 1: you paid him back, you'd give you your title back.
Speaker 1: But then he started like selling the vehicles before people
Speaker 1: had a chance to pay him back. The whole opioid
Speaker 1: epidemics started around here, and I guess he'd gotten into
Speaker 1: pills and stuff, and he would started selling drugs as
Speaker 1: well as running this underground pawn shop he was doing.
Speaker 1: There isn't a lot of information out there about Puck Carter,
Speaker 1: but what we could find included a criminal record filled
Speaker 1: with arrests for assault, receiving stolen property, and truck possession.
Speaker 1: From what I remember is that there was like an
Speaker 1: undercover seeing where the police were going to his house
Speaker 1: and purchasing and selling drugs. So actual drug bust is
Speaker 1: how he got caught. But the reason Michael Moran came
Speaker 1: into is Michael Moran he was like the cheaper lawyer.
Speaker 1: So if you were kind of poorer on like the
Speaker 1: lower income level, he would work out a deal where
Speaker 1: you didn't have to pay as much for a lawyer
Speaker 1: like he was who all the poorer people went to.
Speaker 1: And I think that's really how he got to where
Speaker 1: he could target prostitutes and stuffs because they were of
Speaker 1: lower income and they could afford his services. It's not
Speaker 1: a surprise to me that her dad had him as
Speaker 1: a lawyer. It's important to note that the recollections that
Speaker 1: Michael Moran was pot Carter's attorney is strictly the first
Speaker 1: hand account of our anonymous source. Here's Stephanie and Jeff
Speaker 1: We talked about Michael Moran in season two. He's an
Speaker 1: attorney and a former city councilman in Portsmouth, which is
Speaker 1: about twenty five miles south of Pike County. He had
Speaker 1: multiple allegations against him, including sex trafficking, the disappearance of
Speaker 1: several young women connected to him personally, and the possible
Speaker 1: murder of another at the age of seventy five while
Speaker 1: out on bail and awaiting trial for promoting prostitution, compelling prostitution,
Speaker 1: human trafficking, and engaging in a pattern of corrupt activity.
Speaker 1: Michael Moran died in November twenty twenty one. There's a
Speaker 1: place called Big Bear Lake that has come up a
Speaker 1: lot over the years in our research. It's this spot
Speaker 1: not too far from Pike County that people go to
Speaker 1: on vacation. Essentially, it's like a holiday location. We're going
Speaker 1: to discuss this further, but it's also been alleged that
Speaker 1: it's a spot where sex trafficking happens, drug trafficking happens,
Speaker 1: and potentially there's a connection between Michael Moran and the
Speaker 1: Wagner family. I have to be really honest, my mouth
Speaker 1: dropped when we heard the connection between Pug Carter, Angela
Speaker 1: Wagner's father, and Michael Moran. It's full circle. It just
Speaker 1: further speaks to this idea that Pike County and the
Speaker 1: surrounding area is where people in power continue to stay
Speaker 1: in power by abusing other people. It also points to
Speaker 1: a larger plot here. Angie was always really with her dad,
Speaker 1: Like I remember her being at her dad's often, like
Speaker 1: she took care of her dad. What I've heard locally
Speaker 1: is that's why they came back from Alaska's because Billy's
Speaker 1: dad had died and her dad had died. They needed
Speaker 1: to settle those estates, and then they ended up moving
Speaker 1: into his house, to Plug's house, and that's where they
Speaker 1: lived when they were arrested. Did you have any interaction
Speaker 1: with them when they came back. No, nobody really knew
Speaker 1: they were here until they were arrested. People would be like, oh,
Speaker 1: I think I saw Angela and Jake at Jackson Walmart,
Speaker 1: which is a completely different county. I think they were
Speaker 1: going there so they weren't noticed, And everybody's like, no,
Speaker 1: there's no way. Then all of a sudden they were
Speaker 1: arrested and we're like, oh, well, maybe it was true.
Speaker 1: They were back into him. But if you drive by
Speaker 1: Plug's house, like the Wagner's vehicles are still there. It's
Speaker 1: still as if it was the day they were arrested.
Speaker 1: Nothing has been best with or moved. Somebody cuts the grass,
Speaker 1: but as far as like their stuff still being in there,
Speaker 1: it is still there. Can you paint the picture for me?
Speaker 1: So like a brick ranch home with you know, like
Speaker 1: a big gravel lot and there's still kind of stuff out.
Speaker 1: It still kind of looks like it did one plug
Speaker 1: O didn't. But there's like vehicles that outside they have,
Speaker 1: like this really big Dodge Ram Diesel truck. When you
Speaker 1: have something like that around here, it made you have money.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that that stuff wasn't seized. Yeah, we kind
Speaker 1: of get like an eerie feeling when you drive either too.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, there's so much bad stuff that's happened
Speaker 1: in that one house as far as like crime goes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's where they were hiding out and potentially
Speaker 1: they were there planning those murders. So we're going to
Speaker 1: take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh.
Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The
Speaker 1: Girl Friends Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.
Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and
Speaker 1: he was do He was perfect on paper. But he wasn't.
Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted and to the point she
Speaker 1: went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes
Speaker 1: the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob,
Speaker 1: us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him
Speaker 1: to pay for his crime. He needed to be put
Speaker 1: to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw
Speaker 1: him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call
Speaker 1: him and I would say, I know you killed my sister.
Speaker 1: I will always hound you and haunt you. You can
Speaker 1: listen to The girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Everybody, we know there
Speaker 1: are a ton of podcasts out there. Well, we have
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Speaker 1: is called The Penpals Podcast with Daniel Van Kirk and
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Speaker 1: were writers, but now most of all, we are your penpals.
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Speaker 1: that my mind is quick, if not that funny. And
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Speaker 1: the pen Pals podcast on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network,
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Speaker 1: your podcast, and sirely your new pen pals Daniel Van
Speaker 1: Kirk and Rory Scobel. Hi, I'm Dalia Wild and I
Speaker 1: want to invite you to listen to my newest podcast,
Speaker 1: The Afters to make Up. It's called The Oh My
Speaker 1: God Particle Show or OMGPS for short. How you like me?
Speaker 1: Always wondering about the universe, like what the universe is
Speaker 1: made of? What is in the atmosphere is of alien
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Speaker 1: even ask those questions, so road trip I wanted to
Speaker 1: get some answers directly from researchers at the Large Hadron Collider.
Speaker 1: We're colliding particles with energies that naturally existed when the
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Speaker 1: I Heard radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. LA's reputation not so great. People from LA
Speaker 1: will have a very superficial, nice conversation with you, and
Speaker 1: they won't lift a finger to help you. To LA,
Speaker 1: people represent vapidity stops that like oh the best GOLs
Speaker 1: like oh Shoot. As someone born and raised here, I
Speaker 1: can tell you there's much more to LA in. My
Speaker 1: name is James Kim, and I'm the creator of a
Speaker 1: new anthology fiction podcast, call You Feeling This. There's ten
Speaker 1: different stories about LA and the real people who make
Speaker 1: up this city. What did you listen to my message?
Speaker 1: Who were just trying to get bought. I think I
Speaker 1: was just freaking out because I'm scared by connecting with
Speaker 1: each other. I'm going to be a father. Yea, Are
Speaker 1: you feeling? This? A fiction podcast mixtape about love? Listen
Speaker 1: to it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcast. Sammy Joe grew up in the
Speaker 1: piked In area and was closed with both the Wagner
Speaker 1: and the Rodent families. Sammy spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: at the Wagner's home, where she found Angela to be
Speaker 1: not so much motherly as controlling. Here she is speaking
Speaker 1: with Stephanie. I grew up with the Wagner and then
Speaker 1: I dated Frankie wrote, where were you when you heard
Speaker 1: all of the news about the murders. I was standing
Speaker 1: in my living room, and I lived not tremendously far away,
Speaker 1: but I heard all the sirens and everything going on.
Speaker 1: The next thing, you know, my Facebook was all lit
Speaker 1: up with family members found dead, and I'm thinking, there
Speaker 1: ain't no way we all talk about Angela Wagner, the
Speaker 1: mom of killers, as being in the mastermind. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: put a pastor if Angela said jumped and you didn't
Speaker 1: say how high Angela got mapped, especially with Jake. Jake
Speaker 1: was her baby. Like if Angela didn't like me, Jake
Speaker 1: wasn't allowed to like me that week. I didn't come
Speaker 1: from the right family, or I did her wrong in
Speaker 1: her eyes or something. What about Billy would you describe him?
Speaker 1: What was he like? He was a type of guy
Speaker 1: that he could crack a joke and you would laugh
Speaker 1: for days. My dad had a stroke, a massive brainbling
Speaker 1: a stroke, and I remember writing Angela and I said, hey,
Speaker 1: this is Samantha Brian Frederick's daughter. I need to get
Speaker 1: ahold of Billy. And Billy got ahold of me, and
Speaker 1: I told him my fight listened the house that we're
Speaker 1: living in the floor falling through. They will not let
Speaker 1: my dad come home and let me get the floor fit.
Speaker 1: Billy showed up with plywood feed for my animals. He
Speaker 1: had bought me cinnamon products, a shampoo conditioner, like he
Speaker 1: was there to help, like in his mom. I got
Speaker 1: ahold of Billy and I was. I listened my mom's
Speaker 1: behind on the electric bill. We're in disconnect very literally
Speaker 1: shutting us off. We need a good amount of money.
Speaker 1: And Frederika got ahold of us, and she paid our
Speaker 1: electric bill. They wasn't bad people. I mean they're bad
Speaker 1: people now, but I honestly am my opinion. I don't
Speaker 1: think they were all involved. I think there was other
Speaker 1: people involved under Angela's demand. Right, Is it possible that
Speaker 1: they weren't even there and that maybe other people were
Speaker 1: there that night? In my opinion, yes, I think they know,
Speaker 1: but they won't speak about it. I think the boys
Speaker 1: know what happened, and if they speak about it, they'll
Speaker 1: be dead. And that's my opinion. Jake and George was
Speaker 1: always homeschooled, like they were never in public schools. The
Speaker 1: public systems that Angela was not good enough for her boy,
Speaker 1: so her teaching her kids was better. I don't know
Speaker 1: how much better that was, but it was teaching them
Speaker 1: pretty much. What Angela said goes like she puts off
Speaker 1: the vibe of like if she said you're going to
Speaker 1: rob a bank and you tell her no, like she
Speaker 1: gets scary. I love the boys to death. They're a
Speaker 1: little weird, but I love them to death. I remember
Speaker 1: decades ago we all went to the bull riding thing
Speaker 1: and Billy and her got my little argument. I've never
Speaker 1: seen a grown man in an argument shut up so
Speaker 1: fast in my life, like the argument was over within seconds.
Speaker 1: It was controlling, is what it was. And have you
Speaker 1: been in the house when all of them were home
Speaker 1: at the same time. Yeah, the house was always quiet,
Speaker 1: very quiet. Normally would be Billy sitting there in a
Speaker 1: chair grinding his teeth, just sitting there watching TV. That
Speaker 1: would be like the living room area. Angela was normally
Speaker 1: in their cooking, and then off all that in the
Speaker 1: bag was the boys' room. To the left was Georgia's room,
Speaker 1: until the right was Jake's room. Of course, typical boys,
Speaker 1: you're going to have to your heads and guns in there.
Speaker 1: And that's pretty much the house. I can't remember a
Speaker 1: time that they were one of the houses burnt down
Speaker 1: and they were living in a shack and they were
Speaker 1: all cramped up in this little living room area and
Speaker 1: I'm standing there by the door with my dad. It
Speaker 1: was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. As
Speaker 1: a reminder, this is Sammy Joe's recollection of events. I
Speaker 1: could tell you every place that they had, every place
Speaker 1: that burned down. I can't prove that it was in church,
Speaker 1: but that many houses. There's the trailer trailer slash house,
Speaker 1: the building. There's like a good four or five places
Speaker 1: that burnedale, plus a semi truck. There wasn't anybody home
Speaker 1: or in the houses when they burned down. Correct. No,
Speaker 1: We've heard for several years about suspicious fires related to
Speaker 1: Angela and Billy Wagner, but have never been able to
Speaker 1: speak out about it. However, now these allegations have been
Speaker 1: substantiated in court. On May second, twenty twenty two, Special
Speaker 1: Prosecutor Angiekneppa references arson in connection with the Wagner family
Speaker 1: multiple times. Some of these apps are alleged. Some of
Speaker 1: these we have again high levels of proof, specifically number one,
Speaker 1: multiple instances of arson of various properties for their own
Speaker 1: financial gain. Everybody in the conspiracy has their own role
Speaker 1: and they carry out that role ironically. Oftentimes Angela absents
Speaker 1: herself from the himself. The men Jake, George and Billy
Speaker 1: carry out on the crime and then they have a story,
Speaker 1: a cover up story. If I had a chance to
Speaker 1: talk to George, I honestly would because I just want
Speaker 1: to know why I actually want fishing with George. Shortly
Speaker 1: after and it got brought up, Wait, you went fishing
Speaker 1: with George Wagner after the murders. I asked him. I
Speaker 1: was like, I can't believe this happened, and because him
Speaker 1: and Frankie after a while that rode close as terrible
Speaker 1: as it is to say now, victim Frankie Rodin and
Speaker 1: accused murderer George Wagner were known to be good friends.
Speaker 1: Sammy Job calls the time when Frankie Rodin was standing
Speaker 1: up to Jake Wagner to defend his sister Hannah May.
Speaker 1: I did hear about Frankie and Jay getting into it,
Speaker 1: because I guess and Hannah got into it and Jake
Speaker 1: had hit Hannah. Sorry to interrupt, but just for clarity,
Speaker 1: you're referring to victim Frankie Rodin, Hanname Rodin's older brother, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I don't know. I wasn't there or that's just
Speaker 1: what I was told. But George like shut me out,
Speaker 1: like he goes, how could we do it? Because they
Speaker 1: were already be in question who was going to be
Speaker 1: there with the kids. And I was like, well, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I was like, there's just something wrong, Like
Speaker 1: he totally shut me out, Like I knew sometime was
Speaker 1: wrong that day when we were talking about it, like
Speaker 1: our vision trip was going good and it got run
Speaker 1: real fuck Like, I talked to them. Why they were
Speaker 1: in Alaska? Tell me about the Alaska piece. Why Alaska?
Speaker 1: That's been the boys's dream since they were mee hi
Speaker 1: to Grasshopper. Do you know if Angela and Hannah at
Speaker 1: any point had a positive relationship, even back in the
Speaker 1: early days. Oh yeah, at one one time. They loved
Speaker 1: each other as far as I know. But angel was
Speaker 1: the type of person if you say or do something
Speaker 1: out of the way, you're a bad person. Why, I think,
Speaker 1: honestly because Hannah was the type of person. But if
Speaker 1: I say no, that's what I mean. And Angela wasn't
Speaker 1: getting her way with the custody, And I honestly feel like,
Speaker 1: and this was my opinion, Angela was afraid that Hannah
Speaker 1: was going to take away all visitations and that's how
Speaker 1: it was going to be. Not only did Sammy Joe
Speaker 1: know the Wagner family, but she also knew the Rodents intimately.
Speaker 1: When they were very much alive. She spent a lot
Speaker 1: of time at mother Dana Roden's house visiting her boyfriend Frankie.
Speaker 1: How old were you when you dated Frankie Rodin? I
Speaker 1: dated him from seventh grade to like ninth grade. He
Speaker 1: was fun and you just liked the rest of him,
Speaker 1: like you was so well going, give the shirt off
Speaker 1: his back, caring Nolsee when you were dating Frankie, did
Speaker 1: you spend any time at the road and home? What
Speaker 1: were they like? What was their home like? It was fun,
Speaker 1: like it was a live like that place was alive.
Speaker 1: Frankie would ride a bus home with me. Mostly I
Speaker 1: ride bus home with them and just spend a lot
Speaker 1: of time out there. I spent more time than even
Speaker 1: at my own house. And was Dana close with Frankie?
Speaker 1: Oh that was her baby boy? Like should hurt someone
Speaker 1: over her kids? Could you physically describe her like? What
Speaker 1: did she look like? Her hair was always sure. We
Speaker 1: always called her fluffy. She was about five to seven,
Speaker 1: very loud but fun. Yeah, like I never wanted to
Speaker 1: go home, like I actually felt like I was wanted.
Speaker 1: She would go out of your way like my dream
Speaker 1: shoes was I called him Abby's shoes like they were
Speaker 1: the very long shoes that zip up the back. I
Speaker 1: can't remember what they're called now and her and Frankie Blomingham.
Speaker 1: I had those shoes for years. Did you know Hannah,
Speaker 1: Gilly Frankie lover her. You could tell. Sammy Joe shared
Speaker 1: a recollection she had about Hanname Rodin Hannah. She would
Speaker 1: drive past my house just honking. And she drove by
Speaker 1: honk and I was on my porch. She was, I'll
Speaker 1: see you later. I came to see you later. And
Speaker 1: I didn't get to see her later because she was
Speaker 1: dead the next day. Let's stop here for another break. Oh.
Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The
Speaker 1: Girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.
Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and
Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper. But he wasn't.
Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted into the point she went unconscious.
Speaker 1: Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one
Speaker 1: time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us
Speaker 1: girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to
Speaker 1: pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice.
Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now,
Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I
Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will
Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to
Speaker 1: the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. How Rude tanner Rito's is the
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Speaker 1: and we'll take a trip down memory lane together. Listen
Speaker 1: to how Rude Tanertos on the iHeartRadio app, cable podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. LA's reputation not so great.
Speaker 1: People from LA will have a very superficial, nice conversation
Speaker 1: with you, and they won't lift a finger to help you.
Speaker 1: To LA, people represent vapidity, stops that like oh the
Speaker 1: best calls like oh shoot. As someone born and raised here,
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Speaker 1: a new anthology fiction podcast, call You Feeling This. It's
Speaker 1: ten different stories about La and the real people who
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Speaker 1: you Feeling This? A fiction podcast mixtape about love? Listen
Speaker 1: to it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
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Speaker 1: one of the most important American children's authors of the
Speaker 1: twentieth century. She's the basis for its television show still
Speaker 1: watched around the world. Somebody somewhere is watching A Little
Speaker 1: as the Bird. She's been called a hero, a racist,
Speaker 1: a feminist, and a propagandist. I think the harm is
Speaker 1: too great because it's just one more thing that Native
Speaker 1: children have to endure. She is Laura Ingles Wilder, author
Speaker 1: of the book series Little House on the Prairie. As
Speaker 1: a kid, I idolized Laura, and last summer I went
Speaker 1: on the road in search of the real Laura. We're
Speaker 1: literally on the prairie. What I found was a complicated
Speaker 1: person alongside the camlicated country she represents. I'm Glennis McNichol,
Speaker 1: and this is Wilder. Listen to Wilder on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. While Sammy
Speaker 1: Joe's relationship with Angelo was similar to what we've heard
Speaker 1: from other people and in trials, that she was controlling
Speaker 1: and suspicious, like all people, Angela is different things to
Speaker 1: different people. Here's Howie, a family friend who knew the
Speaker 1: Wagners both in Ohio and Alaska. My understanding is that
Speaker 1: you had a very close relationship with the Wagner family.
Speaker 1: I grew up with them and went to church and
Speaker 1: them and things like that. Tell me about them. What
Speaker 1: were they like? I always thought they were great people.
Speaker 1: I've stated at their house multiple times. Like I said,
Speaker 1: I've gone to church with them growing up. It's kind
Speaker 1: of like a second family to me. I thought there
Speaker 1: were decent people. Did you remember anything about Angela Wagner.
Speaker 1: I just remember her being the typical mom. In a
Speaker 1: million years, I'd never thought she could plot anything or
Speaker 1: do anything of this sort of caliber. Like I said,
Speaker 1: just the typical mom. She reminds me of my own mother.
Speaker 1: What about her specifically was typical in your opinion? Her attitude,
Speaker 1: you know, just the standard mom. You know the way
Speaker 1: she looks. You look at her and you see mom
Speaker 1: like she's just that friendly of a person. Just her
Speaker 1: attitude in general, she's a welcoming person. You had mentioned Alaska.
Speaker 1: Did you live in Alaska or did you visit them
Speaker 1: while the Wagners were in Alaska. I lived in Alaska
Speaker 1: and they came up and visited. Tell me how old
Speaker 1: were you at that point? I was probably thirteen fourteen
Speaker 1: somewhere around there, just you know, young teenager. They were
Speaker 1: a little older than I was, so we didn't really
Speaker 1: hang out a whole lot. Then I went fishing with
Speaker 1: him once or twice in Alaska. Why Alaska, do you think?
Speaker 1: I think the real thing was the pastor in Alaska
Speaker 1: was also the pastor in the church in Ohio that
Speaker 1: they went to and knew my grandparents, So they had
Speaker 1: a lot of people up here that in Alaska is
Speaker 1: just the place that everybody wants to come and visit.
Speaker 1: So I assume that, you know, they wanted to come
Speaker 1: to see old friends and things like that. And when
Speaker 1: they came, that was before the massacre. Correct, Yeah, this
Speaker 1: was before it's at least being curious why they went
Speaker 1: to Alaska, and moreover, why would they go back to
Speaker 1: Pike County. They came the first time to visit, and
Speaker 1: then the whole Pike County massacre thing happened and they
Speaker 1: came back to Alaska, but they had no contact with anybody.
Speaker 1: They didn't talk to any of us, Like we reached out,
Speaker 1: were like, hey, what's up, how are you guys? We're
Speaker 1: sorry this happened, and they never once talked to us.
Speaker 1: They moved to a different city. I believe they lived
Speaker 1: in Salatna or Cassia Lock or something like that. And
Speaker 1: they never had any sort of contact with me and
Speaker 1: my grandparents and my sisters, the pastor nothing. What do
Speaker 1: you make to that. It was definitely strange hearing people
Speaker 1: were murdered, then they show up out of nowhere coming
Speaker 1: back to Alaska. It was it was definitely fishing. And
Speaker 1: that's when I kind of cut ties, you know, just
Speaker 1: just to be on the SAT side. I didn't want
Speaker 1: me involved in anything of that sort. When they were
Speaker 1: in fact arrested for the murders, that must have been
Speaker 1: a huge shock. Oh. I cried, I said in my apartment,
Speaker 1: And I cried because he's just, you know, one of
Speaker 1: the sweetest people ever. I just don't think it's going
Speaker 1: to add begin. I think people do dumb things for
Speaker 1: their family. People say they do anything for their family,
Speaker 1: and I think she did do anything for her family,
Speaker 1: as terrible as it was. As we continue speaking with
Speaker 1: more people, much more information is coming out, including other
Speaker 1: acts the Wagners have allegedly committed over the years. This
Speaker 1: is according to prosecutors. The Wagner family tracked her. They
Speaker 1: threatened her, They threatened her family's lives. The family definitely
Speaker 1: on that side. They did stuff to make money other
Speaker 1: than legally. It begs the question of how wide their
Speaker 1: net is spread and what other people may be involved.
Speaker 1: For the first time in this podcast, will hear Jake
Speaker 1: Wagner's ex wife Elizabeth. They keep being asked, did you
Speaker 1: know Jake Wagner was a murderer before you married him?
Speaker 1: What I'm getting reysycho have nothing to do with the murder.
Speaker 1: This voice belongs to another person who has requested anonymity
Speaker 1: due to their proximity to the Wagner family. Is Angela
Speaker 1: the monster or did she marry into monsters? I feel
Speaker 1: like Billy is a type that would pay someone in
Speaker 1: prison to kill his own kids. More on that next time.
Speaker 1: For more information on case photos, follow us on Instagram
Speaker 1: at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikes and Massacre is produced
Speaker 1: by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves and me Courtney Armstrong.
Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tis, music by Jared Aston,
Speaker 1: audio mixing by Ken Novak. The Pikes and Massacre is
Speaker 1: a production of Katie Studios and Heart Radio. For more
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Carol Fisher
Speaker 1: and I'm hosting a podcast called The girl Friends. It's
Speaker 1: Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time
Speaker 1: to find a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who
Speaker 1: were felt to be eligible bachelors. One of them was
Speaker 1: the spot Baron Bout. On paper, he was perfect, but
Speaker 1: in reality, this guy's a wacko. He choked and to
Speaker 1: the point she went unconscious. I would call him and
Speaker 1: I would say, I know you killed my sister. You
Speaker 1: can listen to The girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. So how
Speaker 1: does the half American, half Nicaraguan party girl from New Orleans.
Speaker 1: There's absolutely no journalism experience, right? The biggest story of
Speaker 1: the eighties, That's what journalist is all of that. I'm
Speaker 1: a woman, wife beater T shirt, not wearing a brawl
Speaker 1: curses like a sailor. I got balls bigger than any man.
Speaker 1: Dan Rather used to call me his secret weapon. Listen
Speaker 1: to Journalist to every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. They say history is
Speaker 1: written by the victors, but you know what they left
Speaker 1: out A hell of a lot of juicy stuff. Ah.
Speaker 1: We all know who invented that, right, and we'll think again.
Speaker 1: Truth is Alexander Graham. Bell stole the idea for the
Speaker 1: telephone and then claimed it as his own. We're going
Speaker 1: to uncover the forgotten pieces of history you didn't know
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Speaker 1: me Patty Steele twice a week on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, Hello
Speaker 1: Mountain Glabo. Here this year under Visionist History, we're tackling
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