1 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephan 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: Never told you production. I heart radio. Alright, Anny, I 3 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: have a question for you, And even though I already 4 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 1: know the answer, I feel like, because I know you 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: so well, I already know the answers. But did you 6 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: ever have any interest in any of the true crime 7 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: stories growing up or even now? No? And in fact, 8 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: I have never seen a single episode of Law and 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: Order of any of I know multitudes of Law and 10 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: Order shows. I did watch because of my brother and 11 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: we only had the one TV, so you know, you 12 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: had to deal with whoever choke him. I did a 13 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: watch Rescue nine one one, but that didn't necessarily have 14 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: I just mostly remember that kid got stuck into escalator, 15 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: and then I was afraid of escalators after that. Oh yeah, 16 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: it was at the croc one. Well he had like 17 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: it was his jacket. Something got stuck in the escalator. 18 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: I think I know there's a croc one too where 19 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: they got sucked in and it killed the kid. Oh 20 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: my gosh, Oh my gosh. Well that's stuck with me. 21 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: The kid in this he survived. I will say, in 22 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: light of what we're talking about today, I would go 23 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: through these like really morbid periods where I would research 24 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 1: serial killers or like what like just looking to their 25 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: biographies and then I just regret that I ever had 26 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: but I would do that. So I'm pretty familiar with 27 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: most of the big serial killers, at least in the 28 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: United States. Yeah, so obviously we're going to be talking 29 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: a little bit about this subject. And before we start 30 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: on what is a very fascinating but really to start 31 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: pink topic, want to put a quick trigger warning. We 32 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: will be mentioning rape, assault, and stalking within this episode. 33 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: We're not going to get two in depth of any 34 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: of the graphics situations or any of the actual cases 35 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: more so around it. But yeah, we're definitely talking about 36 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: murders and violent criminals in this episode and actually the 37 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: people who love them. Right. So, yeah, if you're listening 38 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: to this when it comes out and you have to 39 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: celebrate Valentine and say we are not there for you, 40 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: I guess are you know? We're giving you an alternative? 41 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: Is your anti Valentine's here you go? Yeah, So we're 42 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: talking today about women who love serial killers and I 43 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 1: guess killers at large, and we're not necessarily talking about 44 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: people who were with killers. And then found out later 45 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: we're talking about people who know what they did about 46 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: the atrocities and fall in love despite that. Because of 47 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: that with these different people, and this episode came to 48 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: mind because I will admit I'm very interested in true crime, 49 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: and as we know, Netflix actually has been producing a 50 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 1: lot of true crime content and have been for several 51 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: years now, including some of the newer ones like The 52 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: Nice which follows the case of serial killer Richard Ramirez. 53 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: And just to put it out there if you're interested 54 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: in any of these types of shows, this one is 55 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: pretty graphic and has been accused of glorifying the violence 56 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: and bringing on victims for shock value, So definitely just 57 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: watch out that. One thing that did catch a lot 58 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: of people's attention and I believe became a pretty popular 59 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: meme was the reaction of one of the witnesses they 60 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: spoke to when they were asking her about the women 61 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 1: who are trying to connect with Ramirez and trying to 62 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: get his attention or even date him, and her response 63 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: was quote, I'm sorry, but they're the dumbest bitches ever. 64 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: And those have been talked about. I started to wonder, 65 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: why do some women and others go as far as 66 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: even marrying some of these horrible men. Right, and as 67 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: we should have expected, there are terms for people who 68 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: are attracted to serial killers are people who commit horrific crimes. 69 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: So let's start with the terms and definitions. First. There's 70 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: high bristophelia, which means a paraphilia quote in which a 71 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: person is sex sual oh erotically attracted to a soon 72 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: who is committed an outrage or a gruesome crime. Are, 73 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: to put it plainly, when someone is sexually attracted to 74 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: terrifying criminals and specifically for our episode killers. And within 75 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: this paraphilia there is a further breakdown of two types, 76 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: passive and aggressive. Right. So the passive hyper stophilia are 77 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: exactly what they sound like, passive and not necessarily about 78 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: committing any crimes or being involved in crimes, but are 79 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 1: part of the s kgs or serial killer groupies, and 80 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: they're likely to try to make excuses or justify the 81 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: crimes that were committed. And they're the ones who feel 82 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: like they can change these bad people or bad boys 83 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: and most likely places themselves to be manipulated and seduced 84 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: by the killers. And they are the admirers that are 85 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: sending fan mail and try to become pen pals with criminals. 86 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 1: And it should also be noted here the majority of 87 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: people who are I guess categorized with hyperstophilia are women 88 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: and it is usually only known openly known in regards 89 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: to women, especially those thirty to forty years old. So 90 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,799 Speaker 1: what we're talking about specifically is again gear towards women, 91 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: and that's why we're going to be mainly talking about 92 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: women throughout this episode. Right. So, then there's aggressive hypri stophilia, 93 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: which is the opposite of passive um. They're willing to 94 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: assist their loves, whether it's to trick someone, cover up 95 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: for them, or even commit the crimes themselves. It's the 96 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: violence that attracts them, and they are trying to earn 97 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: their love at the same time. Right. And this is 98 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: also known as the Bonnie and Clyde syndrome. Essentially, this 99 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: is the same thing as hybristophilia, just not as scientific sounding. 100 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: It's named after the famous criminal duo Bonnie Elizabeth Parker 101 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: and Clyde Chestnut Barrow. And just in case you didn't 102 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: know what happened to this couple, this is the famous 103 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: duo that went across country on a crime street killing 104 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: law enforcement and robbing mini Amania banks. They had their 105 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: own game, I believe the Barrow bank robbers is what 106 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: they were called. And Bonnie, by the way, supposedly never 107 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: pulled the trigger, so she never technically killed anyone, but 108 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: very attracted to Clyde because of his bad boy image. 109 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: She had been married, actually she was married to someone 110 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: else at the time she and Clyde were together. He 111 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: was in jail her husband at the time she was 112 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 1: killed with Clyde. So that's kind of why it is 113 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: known as the Body and Clyde syndrome. And Um apparently 114 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: was a really good student and a great poet, and 115 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 1: you can find her poems out there. Really interesting. Again, 116 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: they were killed in an ambush by a posse of 117 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: law enforcement, and with the help of the nineteen sixties 118 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: seven film starring Warren Beatty and fay Dnaway, the couple's 119 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: fame kind of was revived. Even though they were already famous, 120 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: it kind of had this whole romanticized portrayal of them, 121 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: so they became a little more famous and a little 122 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: more popular at that point in time. And then yes, 123 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: serial killer groupies again, this is a slang or kitchen 124 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: nickname for hyper stophilia, but for this context we see 125 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: it used as if the serial killers have the same 126 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: appeal as rock stars, deeming the admirers. Yes, are often 127 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: female as groupies hoping to just meet them or to 128 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: have a chance to really know them and hopefully that 129 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: they will want to get to know them and connect 130 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: on a deeper level, also known as prison groupies. Right, 131 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: So this is also a less reform in the same 132 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: level of the passive version of hyber stophilia. They're not 133 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: going to do anything excessive, but they are really excited 134 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: to get to know, get to meet and probably dedicate 135 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: a part of their lives to these different high profile criminals. 136 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: Just but there. So moving on, let's talk about the 137 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: types of killers. We're not going into a lot of 138 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: detail of specific cases, but always we like to make 139 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: sure you know what we know, and just a quick 140 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: review over some of the types of killers because they 141 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: all have the fans that we may be mentioning. And 142 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: the first one, of course, is the serial killer. I 143 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: guess we should probably I mean, we're going to go 144 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: back to basics on this one and define that the 145 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: serial killers, according to dictionary dot com, is quote a 146 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: person who commits a series of murders, often with no 147 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: apparent motive and typically following a characteristic or predictable behavior pattern, or, 148 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: as the American Psychological Association defines it as, quote, an 149 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: individual to repeatedly commits murder, typically with a distinct pattern 150 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: in the selection of victims, location, and method. Yeah, and 151 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: I believe, like the FBI definition has been revised several times, right, 152 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: I know, started with multi murderer and it kind of 153 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: just went down a whole different chime. Yeah, there was 154 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: like a time period and stuff like that. So, yeah, 155 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: there's a little up for grabs there. But in general, 156 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: then there's family annihilator. This term is often used interchangeably 157 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: with familio side, which means quote, the killing of multiple 158 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: family members, typically the partner and at least one child. 159 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: And according to a UK research paper, they identified four 160 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: types of people who fall under this category self righteous, disappointed, 161 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: economic or unstable, and paranoid. Right, and then we're also 162 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: going to talk about proxy murderer. Here we're talking about 163 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: a specific case, which is the case of Charles Manson. 164 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: Since he never technically killed anyone, he could not really 165 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: be classified as a serial killer or um just a 166 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: mass murderer. No, obviously, there's no doubt he's a reason 167 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 1: for the murders that were committed by his follower. Is 168 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: still incorrect to put them in that category. So proxy 169 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: murder is defined as quote, a murder in which the 170 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 1: murderer does so at the behest of another acting as 171 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: a proxy. Yes, And speaking of mass murders, mass murders 172 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: or people who quote kill four more people in a 173 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 1: single incident, not including themselves, typically in a single location. 174 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: School shootings are an example of mass murders. All right, So, 175 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 1: now that we've laid out the ground or, let's talk 176 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: about what's going on with women who are attracted to 177 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: these killers. But first we're gonna pause for a quickly 178 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: for words from responsor and we're back, Thank you, sponsored Okay, 179 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: So let's get into what is appealing about these killers 180 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: for some women. One reason maybe the romanticized misrepresentation of 181 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: these killers. As we talked about at the beginning of 182 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: this episode, there have been many documentaries and movies that 183 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: have been released based on a lot of these killers. 184 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: There are shows dedicated to murder cases and specific killers 185 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,719 Speaker 1: all around the world. And I'm not gonna lie. I 186 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: am definitely watched my fair share of Criminal Minds. I 187 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: don't know, it's not just me, because it's quite popular 188 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: as in fact, that show has been around since two 189 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: thousand five and ended only last year, and it's still 190 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: considered one of the most popular contemporary shows out there. 191 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,239 Speaker 1: And the show doesn't necessarily try to romanticize or glamorize 192 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,839 Speaker 1: the different killers or killings. The success of the shows 193 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: like Criminal Minds does speak to the overall fascination that 194 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: people have about killers and the crimes they commit. But 195 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 1: what makes the fans or hybristophiles different is their desire 196 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 1: and attraction to them. And when we look at shows 197 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 1: like You or movies like the Ted Bundy movie starring 198 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 1: Stack Afron, it becomes more romanticized for some of the 199 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: viewers and starts to become more of a fantasy and 200 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: attraction to the story themselves. As Karen Kilgareff and Georgia 201 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: Hartstack has stated in their podcast My Favorite Murder, it's 202 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: not the murderer, but the obsession of the stories that 203 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: catch their attention. And by the way, I have a 204 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: lot of friends that love that show, and it's really 205 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: funny to me because they will be telling me all 206 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: these things, and it almost always is. I heard on 207 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: my favorite murder and like it's popular. And we just 208 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: recently talked about the appeal of romance novels, and some 209 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: experts believe it's some more extreme forms of romantic novels, 210 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: like the body stripping genres that may influence some of 211 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: these fantasies of these killers. Of course we are talking 212 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: the more or most extreme versions, but it does connect 213 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: with the appeal of the bad boy at dominant Mail, 214 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: who is misogynistic, groups that change for the one that 215 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: they love the old he's really tender and loving with 216 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: loving me trope. And here it could be misconstrued that 217 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: these killers are the most extreme, over publicized, real versions 218 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: of these fantasy characters, and that we aren't going to 219 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: delve into it. There is fan fiction like under the 220 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: true crime community, which in my experience, which is very 221 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: very limited, very I won't say it's necessarily romanticizing it, 222 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: but the mere fact that it exists, and also I'm 223 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: sure they're underground places that probably have a lot more 224 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: um stories like this is telling, and then their erotic blogs. 225 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: In regards to the fantasized ideas of who these killers 226 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: are and those won't be going away anytime soon, and 227 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: then going on to a different reason. Maybe is the 228 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: good old savior complex. And we've talked about this a 229 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: lot with toxic relationships or even abusive relationships, but this 230 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: is to another level. Um, we're talking about women finding 231 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: the ultimate projects a chance for some women to be 232 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: the ones to reveal the killers quote true self as 233 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: in the man behind the monster kind of idea. And 234 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: the idea behind this is that the individual could be 235 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 1: the one to rescue or save these killers, as in fact, 236 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: their need to save our health them can be a 237 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: spill over from their own lives, perhaps their social workers 238 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: or nurses, and some kind of feel the profession that 239 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: also allows them to have this purpose in their work 240 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: lives and daily lives. But of course this is not 241 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: to say that women who are attracted to do these 242 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: thingerous killers are all nurses or social workers. I'm not 243 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: one of those. I'm just saying that they definitely had 244 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: some correlations as in fact, like some of the people 245 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: who were attached to them, one was a defense attorney 246 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 1: who came in as wanting to protect and find their 247 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: innocence and protect their life. Some of them may have 248 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: been like editors trying to do a good change in 249 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: like their personal stories get that sympathy. So it definitely 250 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: has that kind of level of I'm gonna help you, 251 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: I'm gonna save you. Yeah, And I mean it's worth 252 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: mentioning to you that not all, not all serial killers, 253 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: but a lot of killers are are charismatic and charming, 254 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: very manipulous. Yes, yes, and at the savior complex could 255 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: go hand in hand with some of these women, um 256 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 1: wanting to nurture our protective killers. Yes. So for example, 257 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: the combined shooters definitely have a fan group, and the 258 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: majority of them believed the story that they were the 259 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: actual victims of bullying and being misunderstood. There are many 260 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: dedicated sites to defending them and their actions. The Parkland 261 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: shooter was also placed on the same pedestal and was 262 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: sent fan mail and even gifts. His public defender even 263 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: stated in my forty years as a public defender, I've 264 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: never seen this many letters to a defendant end quote. 265 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: The letters shake me up because they are written by 266 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: a regular, everyday teenage girls from across the nation. That 267 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: scares me. It's perverted. Many of the letters contain notes 268 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: of caring and concern. Many of the young girls wanted 269 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: to let them know that if they need anything or 270 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: just wanted to talk, that they were available. And for 271 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: many they form an attachment and hopes to be that 272 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: listening year, that woman who can nurture and helps them 273 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: grow or become better people. Yeah, it was pretty disturbing 274 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: some of the samples of the letters that were sent. 275 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: There are also those who seek to comfort the killers 276 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: who have been known to have trauma in their childhood 277 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: which they have made excuses as to this is why 278 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: they commit these crimes. We all know that many of 279 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: the killers had histories of abuse, are neglect and that 280 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: this is the appeal For some of the women. They 281 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: want to nurture and protect the boy inside or the 282 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: protect the boy that was. It helps that they can 283 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: turn the killers around to bring them past the trauma. 284 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: Dr Katherine Ramsland, who has written many books concerning serial 285 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: killers and killers and as a professor of forensic psychology 286 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: and criminal justice, states many see these killers as quote 287 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: the boy he once was and seek to mother him 288 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: and that for many of the skg s or the 289 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: serial killer groupies can quote change the man and convert 290 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: him into a better person. Also, of no is the 291 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: possibility of past trauma abuse that leads to seeking another 292 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: power figure one blog that was specific to talk about 293 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: their own abuse and the retaking of power and the 294 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: loss of power and fantasizing about sexual violence committed by 295 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: criminals um and this is a very specific type of 296 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: reasoning and fantasizing about depraved killers. But some experts take 297 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: a more specific look at the women whose insecurities and 298 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: past history can make them vulnerable to the manipulative tactics 299 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: of some of these terrifying killers like Charles Spanson or 300 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: To Bundy. And with that, some experts say that the 301 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: women may have trauma and or abuse in their own lives, 302 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: which can lead to an insecurity of finding a morbid 303 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: attraction and fascination in these men, especially those who have 304 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: a history of abuse or violence towards women. Though it 305 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: could be seen in the scope of grooming or being 306 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: groomed in the past or manipulation, it is that need 307 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: to continue that pattern in their lives. A survivor's essay 308 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: talks about her infatuation and fantasizing of these types of 309 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: violent encounters with men like Ted Bundy and describes the 310 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: breakdown of using that trauma violence to see herself as 311 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: a thing rather than a being who got hurt. It's 312 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: definitely a complex issue that is not dug into too deeply. Right, 313 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: A lot of the accounts that I was looking at 314 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: were personal statements without actual therapeutic backgrounds or people talking 315 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: about that breakdown. But it was interesting to see because 316 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: there is, as we have talked about when we talked 317 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: about writing out on sex or like the literature and 318 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: fiction of sex, the complications for trauma victim or survivor 319 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: and what does that look like? And this goes one 320 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: step are though when they actually placed themselves into a 321 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: fantasy of a real abuser or a killer in this instance. 322 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: So it was really interesting to see, but not correlated. 323 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: So I would love to see more about that. I 324 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: say love very loosely. There's also those that that believe 325 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: that the killers are innocent. The many women who end 326 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: up having a relationship or actually marrying some of these 327 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: men either truly believe that the men were innocent or 328 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: tried to prove that they were innocent. Whether it's through 329 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: here and I will say extreme denial or being manipulated 330 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: by the killers themselves. Women would go to trials, they 331 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: would try to appeal to TV or even go as 332 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: far as trying to reopen cases by doing their own 333 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: investigations in order to defend the killers. A couple of 334 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: examples we have are Rosalie Martinez, who was on the 335 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: defense team for killer Oscar Boland, who was convicted of 336 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: killing three different women in Florida. As a show of 337 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: her belief in a Boland's innocence, she left her then 338 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: lawyer husband to marry Boland, and they remain married until 339 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 1: his execution in twenty sixteen. And then many women, including 340 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: wives and girlfriends of Richard Ramrez and Charles Manson, a 341 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: clone to the fact that they were not being fairly 342 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 1: represented by the media or even law enforcements. Richard Ramerez, 343 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: his wife, stated he was one of the kindest people, 344 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: and Charles Manson fans say that he was an Earth 345 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,719 Speaker 1: warrior fighting from Mother Earth. So there was definitely a 346 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: lot of excuses out there. Rights and some experts say 347 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: that some of these women are looking for their own 348 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: notoriety or fame, which of course not surprising. They were 349 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 1: those who flocked to these men because of the fame 350 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: and notoriety attached to these men's names. Many experts believe 351 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: that some of the women enjoyed having their names attached 352 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: to such infamous killers. Of course, these women would be 353 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: more classified as groupies over hyper stophilia, as sexual arousal 354 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: is a prime proponent for this type of paraphilia. Experts 355 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: would talk about the women who were just trying to 356 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: get magazine covers and our stories and our movie deals, 357 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 1: even to the fact that Charles Manson's last girlfriend, who 358 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: was that they believe seventeen nineteen year old at the time, 359 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,479 Speaker 1: was trying to get the rights to his body so 360 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: she could use this and make money off of it. 361 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: So there's definitely a lot of conversation of that and 362 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: most likely pointed towards that about why they're interested in 363 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: these men rather than actual love or hybrid staphilia, And 364 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: some have attributed to the extreme forms of fantasism, which 365 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: is kind of this whole thing. In these instances, we 366 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 1: witness the women who are seeking relationships in their own 367 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: terms at a safe distance. So not only are they 368 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 1: trying to find this fantasy, this fantasy goes to a 369 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: point that at least it's safe, like this is the 370 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: safest way they can do it. With many of the 371 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: killers not being accessible, women may cling to the idea 372 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: of having that quote perfect boyfriend who's not out cheating 373 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: and doing god knows what, which we know what's bad, 374 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: but are sitting safely, locked away and will most likely 375 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: remain there. The women can control physically more than emotionally 376 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: the aspects of that relationship. I like get that in 377 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: terms of I understand on paper, but it's so weird 378 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: to hear serial killers and like safe relations It's weird 379 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:02,479 Speaker 1: for sure. Authors Sheila Eisenberg noted that during her research 380 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: for women who love men who kill, many of the 381 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: women she interviewed came from abusive childhoods and have lived 382 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: through their fair amount of trauma as we said earlier, 383 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: and thought that perhaps for these women, they were interested 384 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: in these men as quote someone who couldn't hurt them. 385 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: They could be courted, loves and be shown intimacy without 386 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: ever actually being around them to get hurt um and 387 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: this makes them the perfect boyfriend. While women can believe 388 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: that they are loved and wanted without breaking the fantasy 389 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: with everyday issues in real relationships. There's no cleaning, there's 390 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: no cooking or even physically looking after them to grow 391 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: bitter tours and the men dote on them with written 392 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: words and sometimes a ten minute visit. Uh, well, we 393 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: are going to delve into even more listeners, but first 394 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: you're gonna foster one more quick break for words for 395 00:20:51,640 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: more sponsor and we're back, Thank you sponsor. So what 396 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: about the more aggressive hyper stophilia? Were the women who 397 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: followed Manson aggressive hybristophiles? And it's rare to see hyper 398 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 1: stephilia in men, But if they do, is it more 399 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: likely to be aggressive than passive? Though technically Manson was 400 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: not necessarily a murder at this point, the love for 401 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: him drove these women to murder for him. Why So, 402 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: going back to that question, the answer of was this 403 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 1: aggressive hyper stephilia? I mean simply the answers though or 404 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: they did not necessarily participate because of Manson and their 405 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: sexual need for him. The bigger counter narrative that has 406 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: finally started to circulate is the grooming, abusive environment created 407 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 1: by Manson and using young, vulnerable women to do his bidding, 408 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 1: including trading sexual favors for his knees, whether it was 409 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: rent or other financial gains. Right, And as we've learned 410 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: and stories have unfolded. We have seen where they started 411 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: to realize, oh, we were being manipulated. We didn't know why, 412 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: we thought we were in love. And he would take 413 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: us out in the woods, talk to us some three hours, 414 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: make us feel special, and take us off the streets, 415 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 1: essentially because's a lot of them, more homeless young women. 416 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: And this is the way he protected us, and this 417 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: is how we gave back, and that kind of extreme 418 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: level of grooming. But then when we look at the 419 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 1: women who followed him after his convictions, we would be 420 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: leaning towards the SKG narrative, or in the case of 421 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: his girlfriend, like we talked about Star, she used them 422 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 1: in hopes to be able to claim his body and 423 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,479 Speaker 1: display it. That's according to some reports. Her mother and 424 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: herself have denied these reports. They were engaged at that point, 425 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 1: but Charles Manson died before they could get married, so 426 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: it was really interesting. There isn't too much on the 427 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: male the female killers and scenario, as most of these 428 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: are categorized that it would be women in their thirties 429 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: and forties, but there are some cases in In one 430 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: of the cases for Manson's followers, Susan Atkins, she did 431 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: receive a fair share of ad Myers and even married 432 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: twice while she was in and one of the dudes, 433 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 1: the first that she made, was actually a dude who 434 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: was been married thirty five times apparently, and they divorced 435 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: because he was cheating on her with another woman in prison. 436 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: So I guess he may be a true hybristophile, but 437 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: I don't know. And there have been a couple of 438 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: cases where sex was a motivator to get men to kill, 439 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: but not necessarily the arousal factor of hybristophilia, so it 440 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: was kind of hard to tell where they lie. Now, 441 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 1: we did want to look at some individual cases and 442 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: how far some of these women went, uh knowing what 443 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: these killers did that A great example is Ted Bundy. 444 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: He had fans upon fans upon fans, to the point 445 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: he had many relationships while he was in prison. He 446 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 1: has dedicated blogs and movies continuing to be made, including 447 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: the zac Efron film and more documentaries. He married Carol 448 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: and Boone while in prison. She testified on his behalf 449 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: and by a loophole, and the County was legally recognized 450 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: as his wife after she made the declaration in open court. 451 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 1: She allegedly had a baby with Bundy as well, so 452 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: she finally admitted to realizing he was a killer and 453 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: was able to dissolve the marriage in six right. I 454 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: think he was in jail, not in prison. I misquoted that. However, 455 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: it was really interesting because the loophole was literally if 456 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: you just say it in court, they had to acknowledge it. 457 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: So so they got married. Interesting loophole in the mail, 458 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: like you're married. What. Apparently the daughter had visitation with 459 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 1: him too, so it would be interested to see what 460 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: happened in her life later on. But then there is 461 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: also Richard Rameraz the night Stalker, who actually got married 462 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: while in prison as well to magazine editor Dory Leoy, 463 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: who had sent him seventy five letters while he was 464 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: in prison. She always maintained that he was innocent, and 465 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: she spoke of him about his love and how he 466 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: was her buddy, and they remained married until he died, 467 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 1: and the Ramirez had gotten thousands of fan mails through 468 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: his time in prison. When he was on his actual 469 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: killing spree, victims often talked about his rotting keith, unpleasant 470 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 1: body odor, but apparently that didn't stop the women. It 471 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: was reported that on the day of his arrest, a 472 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 1: few women would climb all their cars as they were 473 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: at least he was going to be driven by as 474 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: they were taking him to jail, and started flashing so 475 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: the he was a rock star. Yeah, even killer and 476 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: known war Henry Lee Lucas had women writing into the point. 477 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 1: A woman came out to the public as one of 478 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: his original victims to try to clear his name. He 479 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: had been accused of murdering his girlfriend, Becky Powell, which 480 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: began his lying, confessing spree of all the murders around 481 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: the world, stating that he killed hundreds of women all over, 482 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: even at one point saying he might have murdered people 483 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: in Japan, but when it finally came to light he 484 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: was lying and he started worrying about getting the death penalty. 485 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: A woman came out on national TV as Becky Powell, 486 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: saying that she had ran away and was very much alive. 487 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: After being told she would have to get on the 488 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: sand to testify, it came out she was also lying. 489 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: She admitted to being in correspondence with Lucas and being 490 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: fed information to be Becky so she could help Lucas. Oh, 491 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: and it was kind of mentioned that even this dude 492 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: who is not an attractive man. There was a lot 493 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: of elements. Not the brightest guy ever. Like literally he 494 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: said that he may have murdered someone in Japan. When 495 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: they asked him how he got there, he said he 496 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: drove there. That's the level of intelligence. And he was 497 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 1: not a good looking dude. A tita was also all 498 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: rotted out, but he still had fans, and he partially 499 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: lied because of that attention, and he loved it. And 500 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: then we also have Chris Watt, who was a family 501 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: annihilator and continues to have women defend and victim blamed 502 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 1: his murdered wife. So Chris Wat's case is a bit 503 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: different as he was not necessarily a serial killer, but 504 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,239 Speaker 1: a family annihilator, and he, much like Bundy, was an 505 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 1: attractive by seemingly good family man, and many followers continue 506 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: to state that he was framed, even though he's confessed repeatedly. 507 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: By the way, repeatedly, the twist to the story goes 508 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 1: beyond just women finding him attractive and sending him hundreds 509 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: of fan mail, but the fact that it becomes a 510 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: narrative of victim blaming. Throughout social media, you can see 511 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: many women coming to the defense Chris's action blaming his wife. 512 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: They accused her of being a bit and perhaps even 513 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 1: being abusive to him, and maintained that he was innocent, 514 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 1: only acting out of self defense. He also has a 515 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,199 Speaker 1: different appeal as a man of contrition, so after stating 516 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: he has found God and recognizes what he did is wrong, 517 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: women begin seeing him as the reformed Christian and the 518 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,360 Speaker 1: compassion for him has become more evident with the women 519 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: who continue to reach out to him and still are 520 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: desired to have a relationship with him. So, yeah, those 521 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: are a few of them, and of course there are 522 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 1: many more examples we can look at like they're definitely 523 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 1: have been stories upon stories, but for now will pause 524 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: because it's a lot and as many as we see 525 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: written for specific cases and specific criminals, there's not been 526 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: in a lot of real data, not a lot of 527 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: real research for women who could be considered under one 528 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: of the first mentioned types of obsession, I guess, but 529 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: definitely a fascinating and again really disturbing topic. It has 530 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: those moments of like you try to figure out the 531 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: level of need and passion that drives them, whether it 532 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,120 Speaker 1: is it shocked factor, or is it because of their insecurity, 533 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:09,199 Speaker 1: or do they truly believe that in their fantasy they 534 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 1: can change this man so or these men in general. 535 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: And we are very obviously talking more of the heteronormative assists. Look, 536 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: because that's kind of what we've seen the most of. 537 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: Even with killers like Jeffrey Dahmer, women were going after them, 538 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 1: even knowing that he was attracted to young men, like 539 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: it was the whole thing. John Wayne Gacy, the same thing. 540 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: So it was an interesting topic about who is made 541 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: up of this fandom. Oh yeah, I mean, and that's 542 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: that's another bigger topic, perhaps for another podcast, but it 543 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: has been a topic of like heated debate about the 544 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: way we report zero killers and they do become these 545 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: famous characters in our culture and they are in our 546 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: media and there's just so much interest there. But yeah, well, 547 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: we hope that of you listeners are doing well. We 548 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: would love to hear from you. If you'd like to 549 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: email us. Our email is Stuff Media, mom Stuff at 550 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: iHeart media dot com. You can find us on Twitter 551 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff Podcast or on Instagram and Stuff I 552 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: Never Told You thinks It's always to our super producer Christina. 553 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff I 554 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: Never Told You this production of I heart Radio. For 555 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 556 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.