1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brussel from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: How Helm, it would appear when you first met the 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: prisoner in Hamburg you lied to him about your medical status. 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: I wanted to get out of Germany, so lied, did 5 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: not please? Yes, thank you? And subsequently in arranging the marriage, 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: who lied to the authorities? I did not tell the 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: truth to the authorities. You lied to them? Yes, And 8 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: now today you've told us a new story. And the 9 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: question is for our Helm, were you lying then? Are 10 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: you lying now? Or are you not? In fact, a 11 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: chronic and habitual when the States star witness is shown 12 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: to have lied, it can annure to the benefit of 13 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: the defendant, as it did with a few more plot 14 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: complications in the classic movie Witness for the Prosecution. Now 15 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: the prosecution star witness in the case against former Goldman 16 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: Sachs banker roger Ing for looting the one MDB fund 17 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: is Tim Leisner, his former boss. But Leisner spent ten 18 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: days on the witness stand admitting to a host of lies, 19 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: lies to his wives, lies to his bosses, and lies 20 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: to his business partners. And then there were the forgeries 21 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: and the fake bank accounts. Joining me is Bloomberg legal 22 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: reporter Patricia Hurtano, who has been covering the trial. He's 23 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: the star witness, this notorious Goldman banker who lived the 24 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: life of the rich and famous. He partied with kings 25 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: or queens, married a supermodel, spent money like water. Tell 26 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: us how much of a star he looks like in 27 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: the courtroom. Well, he's quite different. If you were expecting 28 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: a Daniel Craig to come and be Mr swab and 29 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: sophisticated former Goldman Sachs banker coming to the courtroom. He's tall, lanky, 30 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: he's stop six three, German accent, and sometimes is very 31 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: awkward physically in his movements as well as in speaking. 32 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: He seems to be beseeching the jury to give a 33 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: full and complete rundown of all the crimes committed. Tie 34 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: to one empty beat and spills out the information, sometimes 35 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 1: in a very unfocused fashion. And how has he implicated ing? 36 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: He has basically implicated him and named him in every 37 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: single one of the crime. And it's habitually. He will 38 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 1: say we did this, and then Roger emplawyer Mark Igniflo 39 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: will say, who does he mean by read your honor? 40 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: He needs to specify, and then Wisner will sort of 41 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: fix it up by saying, I mean we, I mean 42 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: Roger and I did this, and Roger is incessantly put 43 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: in in a parenthetical cause that he and Roger did 44 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: these things. Sometimes he sweeps been other goodman sax bankers 45 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: in Asia that worked on the one empty deal as 46 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: also being privy. But sometimes he gets very blurry of 47 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: who's doing what and who knew what plans. Pat you 48 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: need a scorecard to keep track of all Leisner's lies. 49 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: The defense called him a rare and cunning liar. What 50 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: was your us of him? Well, it's really rare. You 51 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: have a white collar descendant who seems to be admired 52 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: in duplicitous behavior. I don't know there's another way of 53 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: characterizing it. I mean he has admitted to being a 54 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 1: double big amus. So he was twice married to two 55 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 1: women at the same time. Undirect He told the prosecutor 56 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: that he had faked divorces from two different women. The 57 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: defense also showed how he created a fake email account 58 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: imposed as his current wife at the time to converse 59 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: with his future wife, who turns out to be the 60 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: former fashion model Comoralie Simmons, and for years he used 61 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: his fake email address, posing as his then wife Beuty 62 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: and to communicate with Coma and Kama would invite Cutie, 63 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: who she thoughtless, Judy Wisner and Kim and Judy's children 64 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: to come on vacations with them and Wiser, poising as 65 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: Judy was big Off, saying that that had had a 66 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: terrible car accident and they couldn't come because they were injured. 67 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: And it's quite extraordinary that somebody was able to pose 68 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: as his wife for years in this fake relationship and 69 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: eventually marries kamal Ley Simmons. He's also shown to use 70 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: accounts created in his wise name to create a bunch 71 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: of shell companies to which he funneled and shuffled money around. 72 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: And he's accused of being involved in this massive foreign 73 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: bribery case involving one MTB, the Malaysian Sovereign Wealth Funds, 74 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: and he's accused of conspiring with Malaysians Sinness here Joe 75 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: Lo the mastermind of this multibillion dollar fraud where they 76 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: funneled billions of dollars off the six point five billion 77 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: dollars bond transaction tied to one m VB, and Joe 78 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: Low took the money but Joe Low agreed to pay 79 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: the two bankers according to the government kick back. So 80 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 1: you have this massive fraud that's the center of the case. 81 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: But then you also have a flawed cooperating witness that 82 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: a lot of baggage and a lot of explaining to do, 83 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: and the defense has explained about and how has he 84 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 1: implicated in He has basically implicated him and named him 85 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: in every single one of the crimes. Pitually, he will 86 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: say we did this, and then Roger emplawyer marc Agniflo 87 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: will say, who does he mean by read your honor? 88 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: He needs to specify, and then Wisner will sort of 89 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: fix it up by saying, I mean we, I mean 90 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: Roger and I did this, And Roger is incessantly put 91 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: in a a parenthetical cause that he and Roger did 92 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: these things. Sometimes he sweeps and other Goldman Sax bankers 93 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: in Asia that worked on the one Antep deal as 94 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 1: also being privy. But sometimes he gets very blurry of 95 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: who's doing what and who knew what plan. And he 96 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: also admitted to even cheating his accomplices out of millions 97 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: and millions of dollars. Yeah, that's the part that's quite complicated. 98 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: And the defense really exploit. There's an energy beverage drink 99 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: called Celsius that was started with Russell Simmons Commorley Simmon's 100 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: former husband, the hip hop recording mogul, and he starts 101 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: this power drink company called Celsius and invites Leisner to 102 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: invest and through aduzzy number of transactions. The defense was 103 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: arguing when they questioned Wisner that Roger Ng invested at 104 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: least one point to five million with Lisner in series 105 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: of tranches and gave it to Lisner to invest to 106 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: buy into Celsius. But Wisner took that money and put 107 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: it somewhere else. He also kept at least nine hundred 108 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: thousand for a down payment on a house in l 109 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: A he was buying, and then he later tells Celsius people, Oh, 110 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: this is my money, and my accountant, Roger Young, will 111 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: be sending it to you now. Confronted with that, he claimed, well, 112 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: I wanted to hide Roger in true role, that it 113 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: was Roger's money. I was doing him a favor, and 114 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: by the way, I planned to camp back. But the 115 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,040 Speaker 1: defense was pointing out he's never in seven years of 116 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: her offered to pay Roger back, and then he also 117 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: took at least eighty million dollars of a roughly hundred 118 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: and sixty million dollar deposits. At one point, Joe Low 119 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: sends him money basically, hey, hold onto this money for me. 120 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: Put it in one of your offshore accounts. So Wisner 121 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: takes that roughly hundreds and sixty million dollars, but takes 122 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: half of it and invests that and other entities. Now 123 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: it's unclear who that money came from. Wisner claims it 124 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: came from Low and really originated with a Kuwaiti shake. 125 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: It's really a bizarre tale and you don't know who 126 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: to believe. But Leisner kept eighty million of it. Did 127 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: the defense catch him in lies? In other words, was 128 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: he surprised by things the defense brought up or was 129 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: he prepared for them? Well, they told a story, but 130 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,239 Speaker 1: I must say that on direct it was a clearer 131 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: narrative of Oh I planned to pay it back. Oh 132 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: I didn't know. I didn't pay it back. You know, 133 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: it was all very innocent sounding. The defense confronted him 134 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: with the lots of emails like the government did not 135 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: bring up pretending to be his current wife while communicating 136 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: with Kama, and that came out because the defense was 137 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: given marital communications emails between the Wide and Leisner, and 138 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: the judge appears to have allowed it to come in 139 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: under the client fraud exception because some of the illicit 140 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: money that he was collecting, like I said before, was 141 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: being put into wise accounts. But the totality of his 142 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: frauds was so intricate and byzantine that came out on cross. 143 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: If I were a juror, I would be scratching my 144 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,599 Speaker 1: head to try to figure out wait a minute, and 145 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: weighing the culpability. You know, there shows lots of emails 146 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: and lots of visits that Leisner made alone to Abu 147 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: Dhabi to meet as part of the one MP schemes 148 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: where Roger is there, but early on, like in January 149 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: when Leisner says the original scheme was hatched in January February. 150 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: But after that the main mover is Wisener, and some 151 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: criminal defense layers I spoke to said, that's the problem. 152 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: What happens when you cooperate down because you might have 153 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: someone that's more culpable testifying against a less culpable person. 154 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: You and I know that you can still be found 155 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: guilty of conspiracy, even if they only did one little act, 156 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: but if it's in further into the conspiracy, then you 157 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 1: can be found guilty because you helped move the conspiracy 158 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: along by taking an act that seemed to be what 159 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: the government is arguing here that you know Rogerson saying 160 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: he helped move the scheme along, he helped hide Joel's 161 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,079 Speaker 1: involvement and conceal it from Golden and officials, so therefore 162 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: he should be convicted. The prosecution brought a lot of 163 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: these lies out on direct examination. What would you say 164 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: the defense destroyed Lisener on cross examination? Well, it just 165 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: seems that Wisner a couple of times to get tripped up. 166 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: There would be half explanations or insufficient explanations. I will 167 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: give you an example. He was us, wait, what happened 168 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: to the money that was given to you by your 169 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 1: former colleagues like Roger. You didn't say, you know, hey, 170 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: I'm sending these other people's funds, did you? And he 171 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: says no, But that was the point I was trying 172 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: to make, you know. I was going to say it. 173 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: I was going to put some money back again. Anyway, 174 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: if the jury doesn't believe Liisner, does the government still 175 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: have enough on thing to prove their case against him. 176 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: They do have other evidence. There's email where Roger's talking 177 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: to Wisner saying, I'm rich, Joe. He says the Prime 178 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: Minister is ready to go. Basically I'm paraphrasing here, but 179 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: so and so is going to have to be paid. 180 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: Now that is probably a smoking gun. And then for 181 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: the government to argue, look, he knew, he knew Robert's 182 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: going to get paid, and this shows to his knowledge 183 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: and culpability in the fraud. Right. It's another thing though, 184 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: how the jury is going to view Eisner in the 185 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: context of who's really moved ing that's fraught along? Is 186 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: it really Wisner that's the main mover with Roger tagging along, 187 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: and we have so many problems laying wiser version of 188 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: events which seem a little shaky, that we may decide, 189 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 1: you know, how are we going to hold him responsible 190 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: for this guy that's the main mover? The defense has 191 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: argues that basically Wisner is implicating Roger to get off 192 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: and get a more lenient sense. What the defense seems 193 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: to be hoping for here is jury nullification. You know, 194 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: the jury saying, hey, the two other guys in this 195 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: scheme did far worse things. The guy on the stand, 196 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: Tim Leisner, has made a deal with the government and 197 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: the other guy, j Lo, has disappeared into the ether 198 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: and no one is prosecuting him. So ings the fall 199 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: guy here and it would be unfair to convict him. Well, 200 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,079 Speaker 1: that's definitely the defensive story. It's this is the wrong guy. 201 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: Roger's just here. Just because you're present at a scene 202 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: of a crime doesn't need you're participating in the crime. 203 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 1: So it remains to be sane whether or not the 204 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: jury believes. And we know you'll be in the courtroom 205 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: when the jury returns that verdict. Thanks so much, pat 206 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: That's Patricia Hurtado, Bloomberg Legal Reporter, and that's it for 207 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 1: this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can 208 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcast. 209 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at 210 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law, And 211 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: remember to tune to The Bloomberg Law Show every week 212 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: night at ten p m. Wall Street Time right here 213 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio. I'm June Bresso, and you're listening to 214 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:37,119 Speaker 1: Bloomberg