WEBVTT - Silicon Valley's Toxic Bro Culture 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:07.920 Hey, Brian, Hi Katie, Well, I think it's safe to 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:11.239 say that we've never seen a year like the one 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:15.280 we've witnessed over the last what six to nine months 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:19.840 in terms of women's empowerment in this country. I've been 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:23.440 working for a long time, and I remember so many 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.360 instances when we declared it the Year of the Woman, 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:29.520 or when we thought everything was going to change, and 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:33.879 of course nothing really did. And now there's some serious 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:38.280 soul searching going on about Hollywood, about Silicon Valley, and 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.560 about every business in between. And Katie, you know what 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:44.720 really staggered me to watch your hour on nat Gio. 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:50.720 Do you think we've promoted your hour on nat Gio enough? Anyway? 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:55.880 The effect of sexism in Silicon Valley and Hollywood isn't 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:58.520 just in those industries. It's on all of us who 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:02.360 are consumers of those industry. For example, there's research that 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:05.399 you brought out that the more hours of TV a 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:09.039 girl watches, the fewer options she believes she has, and 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:11.560 the more hours of TV a boy watches, the more 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:16.679 sexist he actually becomes. And so this is a contagion. 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:21.080 It's not just a problem relegated to these industries. Absolutely, 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:26.280 we asked folks to share their experiences with gender bias 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:30.360 and discrimination at work. People like Dr mommy Kay that's 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:33.679 her display name on Twitter wrote in medicine, it is 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:35.760 very common to be seen as a nurse if a 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.040 female physician doesn't put on her white coat, and even 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:43.680 then it's not presumed. But most men in scrubs are doctors. 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:49.320 So many inequities in medicine. Hashtag too much to tweet That, 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:51.800 of course is true. You know, there's that old riddle 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:54.720 that I used to hear as a kid, and it 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:57.520 goes along these lines of father and his son are 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:00.400 in a car accident. The doctor comes in and exclaim animes, 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:03.400 I can't operate on this child. Why not, the nurse asked, 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:07.559 because he's my son. The doctor responds, how is this possible? 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:11.120 And of course, still in two thousand eighteen, people are 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.560 left scratching their heads. Okay, everyone, how is it possible? 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:19.400 The doctor is the mother? Hello, everybody, the doctor is 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.680 a woman. But it just shows how deeply ingrained these 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:26.680 gender biases are in US even today. Yeah, I have 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:29.399 to admit it took me a few seconds to get that, so, 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:32.560 you know, shame on me. Katie. Also on Twitter, someone 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:35.840 named Kristin Malloy wrote, I was the only female in 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.440 management in twenty two local locations of a restaurant was 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:42.959 told I wasn't bubbly enough to be GM. Pretty sure 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:46.320 bubbly was not a qualification for all the males, and 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.239 that's true. I've never been criticized for my lack of bubblinus, 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:51.720 and I don't think I'm particularly bubbly, and I'm nothing. 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:54.840 Men are ever called perky either, Brian, Just to pick 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:58.320 a random example, Yeah, exactly. We also got a male 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:01.359 perspective from Joe and Can Dada, who works in healthcare. 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:03.200 He emailed us saying he feels he's held to a 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:07.519 different standard of behavior than his female colleagues. He writes, 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:10.359 I cannot and would not make comments about a particularly 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:14.000 attractive nurse or visitor, But when, for instance, the firefighters 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.400 have to come in the building, the women go wild 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:19.160 and make all sorts of sexual comments. I hear the 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:22.480 same comments from them about attractive doctors. I feel like 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:24.240 if I said half of what came out of their 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:26.639 amounts at a nurse's desk, at best, I would be 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:29.120 looked at like a pervert. At worst, I would lose 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:31.799 my career. I mean, I think that's actually a very 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:35.480 interesting and somewhat valid point. There is a bit of 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:37.800 a double standard that I think women need to be 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:42.440 aware of when they're hyper sexualizing men in the office 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:46.120 or making sort of loot or sexual comments. Um, what's 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:48.160 good for the goose should be good for the gander. 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:51.280 What are your views on this, Brian, Um, I agree 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:54.600 with that. That said, the overwhelming problem here is a 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:57.120 lack of opportunity for women in the workplace and a 0:03:57.200 --> 0:04:01.560 lack of flexibility for women who are still the primary parents. Um. 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:05.120 And so you know, I think this is true, but 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:07.760 to me, this doesn't seem like the brunt of the problem. Now, 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.200 I agree, but it's something just to be cognizant of, 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:12.280 I think. But all I have to say is go 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:16.080 Rustle and Karen Goldsmith. You have officially raised a feminist here. 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:21.599 But it's true. I think we're talking about opportunities. Obviously 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:24.000 a lot of it is about behavior in the tone set, 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:28.440 but how do these translate into doors closing or opening 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.960 for everyone, not just for women, but for more diversity. 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:35.640 And I think I hope that things are changing. In 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:39.360 today's show, we're delving into gender inequality and bias, specifically 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:42.400 in the tech industry. Of course, Silicon Valleys generated headlines 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:45.520 about sexual harassment and pay in equity for some time. 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:48.880 Our guest today is journalist Emily Chang. She's one of 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:52.360 the most respected interviewers in the tech industry, and she's 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:55.000 out with a new book called ro Topia, which is 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.200 all about the boys club culture of Silicon Valley. We 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:01.280 talked with Emily about the dam stats when it comes 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:04.760 to diversity and inclusion in tech, the Czech glitterati she 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:08.800 interviewed for her book, and the shocking sex parties attended 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:12.520 by Silicon Valley big wigs, which really, honestly sound like 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:15.760 such a throwback to Mad Men days. I mean, I 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.479 just wanted to grab a bottle up Purel while she 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.960 was even talking about these things. Yeah, I felt pretty gross. 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:24.640 And folks, if you don't tune in about wild Silicon 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.280 Valley sex parties, don't you what we can do? Anyway. 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:31.120 Today's conversation is actually an extension of an episode of 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:33.839 Katie's nat GEO doc series called The Revolt, where she 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:37.040 looked into gender inequality, or as some might call it, 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:41.520 the hostile male culture in both Hollywood and Silicon Valley. 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.880 So you kick things off, Katie by asking, are we 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:56.640 paying too much attention to these two arenas tech and entertainment. Certainly, 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:01.719 sexism and sexual harassment exists everywhere, It's in every industry, 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.760 but you know, these are the industries where women have 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:08.680 been the loudest, and Hollywood much more so than Silicon Valley. 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:10.960 But I sort of like to think of the me 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.760 too movements starting in Silicon Valley with Ellen Powe, you know, 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:17.920 five six years ago when she sued her venture capital firm, 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:23.240 Kleiner perkins Um, and she lost in court, but over time, 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:25.599 she's sort of won in the court of public opinion. 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:28.320 And I wonder if she had filed her suit today, 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:31.680 would the outcome have been different? And I actually I 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:35.080 asked her this question, and she said, you know, there's 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:36.880 no way to answer that question. But I almost think 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:38.600 we wouldn't be here if I hadn't done it when 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.680 I did, and she helped open the doors for so 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:45.760 many others. I did her first interview. I was just 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:49.760 over and it was fascinating to me because so much 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:54.960 of it was sort of intangible things that Ellen experienced 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:58.200 when she was working at Kleiner Perkins for example, really 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:01.320 being excluded being marge a lies, not being part of 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:04.320 the quote unquote boys club, not getting to go on 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:08.000 ski weekends or golf outings, and things like that. You 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:11.520 also talked to her boss for your book. What was 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:14.320 his take, because I did not get the opportunity to 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:18.520 do that, right. I spoke with John Doer, who hired 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:22.720 her and was in his view her champion um and 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:24.640 really gave her an opportunity when some of the other 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:28.160 partners didn't want her to have that opportunity. And you 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:32.440 know what's interesting is Kleiner Perkins was actually kind of 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:34.920 at the forefront in venture capital when it came to 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:37.720 hiring women. There are so many firms who still don't 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:41.280 have any women, and he made a concerted effort to 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:43.720 bring women into the fold. What they did wrong is 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.400 they didn't make the environment inclusive enough for them, and 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:48.760 they didn't create a place where women could really thrive 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:52.040 and and really succeed. And so it was kind of 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:55.120 a case of where good intentions aren't enough, you know, 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:59.000 and good intentions aren't enough, and Ellen experienced so many 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:01.840 of those things that are just so much more difficult 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.960 to pinpoint and call out, you know, it's a lot 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:08.040 easier to talk about these egregious forms of sexual harassment, 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:10.800 and I agree that that is a huge problem. But 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:14.120 I actually think the bigger problem is, you know, the 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:18.800 systemic forces that are really working against all women that 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:21.320 are so hard to describe and also hard to fix, 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:23.760 which is why you know it was worth writing a 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:27.760 three page book about Emily. You wrote that Silicon Valley 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:30.600 has become increasingly toxic for women. Do you think the 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:36.000 problem is actually getting worse and not better? M um? 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:39.319 You know, in some ways I think it is getting worse, 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:42.200 and in some ways I think it's getting better. Um. 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:45.080 And by getting worse, I mean the fact that we 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:48.760 just haven't seen movement for so so long has led 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:50.600 so many people to believe, you know, this is just 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.520 how it is, or it's not my problem. This is 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:55.560 a pipeline problem. This has to do with how many 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.280 women are studying computer science or how many resumes I 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:01.320 get in my inbox. And you know what, that's an excuse. 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:04.160 You know, I argue in my book that the tech 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:07.720 industry created the pipeline problem by having such a narrow 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:10.199 idea of who could do this job. And you know, 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.839 they were doing these personality tests and these aptitude tests 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:16.280 in the sixties and seventies to find good engineers, and 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:22.280 they decided that good engineers quote don't like people. Well, um, 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:24.560 there's no evidence to support this idea that people who 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:26.440 don't like people are better at this job than people 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:30.760 people do. People who don't like people have a little 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:33.480 bit of a tradition, Emily of Katie singing in every episode. 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:38.680 You know, so I don't really want to get into 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:43.080 we can have like a sing off Emily. Anyway, this 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:46.920 is a stereotic. This is a stereotype that shuts out 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:50.120 more than half the population. And you know, there's a 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:51.840 great argument to be made that we need people who 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.760 do like people and care about people who understand the 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:57.400 users whose problems they are trying to solve to be 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:00.640 doing this job. And so, in my i view, the 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:04.600 tech industry created the pipeline problem, but also is reinforcing 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:09.320 that problem today by you know, it's not just about hiring, 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:11.920 it's about retention, it's about progression. It's about making sure 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.640 the women that are already working in this industry want 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:17.880 to stay, because women do leave tech at twice the 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:20.760 rate as men. And it's not because what we would 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:24.240 think maybe issues with work life balance. It's actually because 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:29.200 of toxic cultures. And why is the culture so toxic? 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.760 I mean, you hit on some of it in the book. 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:35.360 Some of these crazy parties that people have. Is it 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:41.240 because it feels so uncharted in a way innovative, and 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:44.120 so they feel they have to be risk takers, not 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:47.200 only in business but in every aspect of their lives. 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.439 So there's this idea that Silicon Valley and everyone there 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.360 is changing the world and making the world a better place, 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:57.640 and so much wealth and power has been amassed in 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:01.439 such a short span of time that it has unfortunately 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:05.480 led to a sense of entitlement and quite frankly arrogance 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:09.560 and this sort of unwillingness to admit that they're part 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:11.840 of the problem. Um and I think that that has 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:14.280 honestly gone on too long. And you do have a 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:16.280 lot of people who are very young. We've made a 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:18.760 lot of money very fast, and it comes without the 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:22.760 same sort of socialization that would happen over a longer career, 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:25.920 and not a lot of emotional intelligence. If they're hiring 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:29.320 people based on sort of the fact that their nerds, 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:33.839 they don't like people, they're super analytical, it would only 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:39.080 make sense that those people are not necessarily really great 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:44.320 at interpersonal skills or emotional intelligence, reading a room, understanding 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:47.040 how their behavior affects others. Right, And if you were 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:48.760 stuffed in your locker as a kid, it can be 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:52.600 hard to admit that you're discriminating against someone today. And 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:56.079 it's not just about having one kind of intelligence or 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:57.880 having people who don't like people who want to be 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:00.160 alone coding in a room. You need all kinds of people. Well, 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:04.640 you do need that emotional intelligence because billions and billions 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:06.960 of people are using these products. And by the way, 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:09.559 half of them are women. And so you know, this 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:12.559 isn't just Silicon Valley's problem. This isn't just a problem 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:14.680 for people who want to work in tech. This is 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:17.559 everybody's problem. This is my problem, your problem, this is 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.679 our children's problem. I mean, these are products that are 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:23.640 changing our lives every day. This is an industry that 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.760 is inventing the future. In fact, let's talk about artificial intelligence. 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.000 You know, one of the things that Kara Swisher said, 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:33.000 and she was featured in my hour on this is 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:35.640 that the people who are programming the content for the 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:38.480 future and what's going to be on our screens, Like 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.560 nine of the people in artificial intelligence are men. Can 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:46.880 you explain in Layman's terms how that influences how that 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:52.200 gender bias plays into content creation online and really in 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:56.400 product creation as well. So AI and machine learning, these 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:59.680 things aren't biased. Algorithms are the products of the people 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:02.199 who created them and the people who use them and 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:05.520 the people who use that. Right, because isn't often it 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:11.760 it's called from a set of information that is pulled 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:15.240 from how frequently people use information. Does that make in 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:18.320 a way it's crowdsourced, right, But if it's better for 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:21.400 certain people, then it is for others. That's also crowdsourced. 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:24.960 And so I think about face i D facial recognition technology, 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.640 which is the way that you get into your iPhone. Well, 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:32.840 facial recognition technology is already sexist and racist and doesn't 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:36.160 recognize women and people of color as easily as it 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.840 does white men, in part because you have mostly men 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:43.040 who are designing these who are not aware of their biases. 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.040 That's part of the problems. So they're not actually it's not, 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:50.280 they're not. They're not compensating for the implicit bias that 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:53.800 they might have in creating this equipment. For example, Siri 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:58.120 doesn't recognize women's voices as much as men, and that's 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:01.960 not accidental. It's a perfect example. Maybe it is talking 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.160 about Well, that's the thing is. I don't think it 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:07.160 is malicious, but at a certain point, ignorance can only 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.760 be willful. And we know that diverse teams create better products. 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.600 We know that, you know, having a women on your 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:17.400 team when you're building voice assistance and facial recognition technology 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:19.440 makes a lot of good sense. So at a certain point, 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.280 if you're not doing that, if you're not building teams 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:25.120 that have people from a variety of backgrounds, then maybe 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:28.520 it does become intentional and you can't say this is 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:30.480 not my problem. I didn't create this problem. You have 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.680 a responsibility if you're creating these products that are used 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:36.200 by billions and billions of people, to make sure that 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.040 they can actually serve billions and billions of people. You know, 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:42.080 Amazon is you know equally as male dominated as Apple, 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:46.240 and women drive sevent of consumer purchases. Don't they want 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:50.000 to reflect their customer base? Um, you know this is 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.560 about not just equality, and I think equality is important. 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:56.320 It's about com it's about commerce, it's the smart thing 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:58.920 to do and not just the right thing to do. 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:01.560 And by the way, they're not reflecting that customer base 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:03.960 at all. Today. Here's some of the stats from Katie's 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:08.360 show to really back that up. Of board seats at 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:11.200 the Unicorn companies, the companies valued at more than a 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:15.320 billion dollars are men. Sixty percent of Unicorns have no 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.760 women board members at all, and of course goes without 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:22.280 saying most of the executive leadership positions are held by men. 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:25.040 You wouldn't necessarily know this because the media focuses on, 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:28.040 you know, two or three very prominent women in the valley, 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:31.320 but the vast majority are men and white men. And 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:34.320 Katie had struck me when Karas Swisher said to you 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:37.640 in Your Hour, the tech companies think they're meritocracies, but 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:41.720 they're more like mirror autocracies. They reflect the people who 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:44.280 are making hires are the people who have already been 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.040 successful in the valley, and so Emily, how do you 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:49.920 think that can change? Well, first of all, I think 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.520 we need to acknowledge that a true meritocracy is impossible 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:57.160 to achieve. And I love Kara's term mirror autocracy because 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:00.600 it's so perfectly encapsulates this idea that we are people 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:03.880 who look like us. Um. You know, the reality is 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:06.080 that we all come to the plate with different kinds 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.360 of privileges and access, and the escalator of life is 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.120 moving far faster for some than it is for others. 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.240 And in fact, when you believe that you are operating 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:19.840 in a meritocracy, you can actually be more anti meritocratic. 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:21.680 And s already use that kind of jargon, but that's 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:23.480 sort of the best way to put it. Well, actually, 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:26.720 there's a study that shows people who believe they work 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:30.040 in a meritocracy or the least meritocratic of all because 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:36.440 they're not. They don't acknowledge their biases. And everybody, what 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:38.960 is the avenue queue. Everyone's a little bit racist. I mean, 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:42.800 everybody has these biases and if you're not cognizant of them, 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.240 then you can't compensate for them. And by the way, 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:48.720 a fun fact about meritocracy, um it actually originated in 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:52.880 the Han dynasty, but the actual word meritocracy was coined 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.760 by a British sociologist named Michael Young in the nineteen 0:16:55.840 --> 0:17:01.360 fifties to warn about a future in which people use 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:05.720 their success to justify their success essentially, and so um, 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:09.480 the success in the education of the winners comes becomes 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:13.520 the sort of reason to dismiss the forces that are 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.879 working against everyone else. And fifty years later he actually 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:18.639 wrote an op ed in The Guardian and said, I've 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:21.680 been very disturbed by this use of the word meritocracy. 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.399 Um that I meant as a warning, when in fact 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.720 it's been It's been used to propagate the very problems 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:31.000 that I was so very worried about. So how do 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:34.240 you improve the numbers? Is it a leadership issue? Is 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.159 that the problem? I mean, I can't believe that sixty 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:40.560 eight percent of unicorns have zero women on their boards. 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:44.120 That is outrageous, including air B and B and we 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:47.639 work it is it is outrageous. We should be protesting 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:49.520 in the streets about this, to be honest, or not 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.000 using their products. Um. Look, you know, I do think 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:56.600 leadership is incredibly important. And I like to point to 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.639 the example of Slack, where you've got a white male 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.960 CEO who's had sort of every door opened for him 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:06.480 that you could possibly imagine, and he recognizes that. You know, 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:10.000 he doesn't use words like meritocracy, but he has made 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:14.720 hiring and promoting women and underrepresented minorities a top priority. 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:17.560 And it's not just you know, something he said at 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.119 the beginning, it's something he talks about all the time, 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.320 lip service. It's not like we have a diversity task 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.160 force and everybody knows this is something he cares about. 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:28.679 So they have diversified their recruiting teams, they're sourcing from 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:32.080 underrepresented schools, they're going to new regions. They've you know, 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:36.840 standardized their interview questions, they standardized their feedback and review systems. 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:41.880 And by the way, they're beating the pipeline. So they 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.280 just came out with new numbers. Forty four percent of 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:47.720 workers at Slack are women and they started with a 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:51.040 company of like fifty men, and so they were starting 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:56.359 at at a disadvantage. Um forty eight percent of managers 0:18:56.400 --> 0:19:00.520 are women, thirty some percent. Uh, women count for thirty 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:03.359 percent of technical worlds, and so you know, they have 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:07.520 proven that you can do this if you commit to it. 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:10.320 And I think it's really that commitment that is so important. 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:12.600 And so many of these companies, you know, and it's 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:15.439 you know, not only they're not only mostly many of 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:18.000 them young founders, but it's just it's not a priority, 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.600 it's about growth. It's about raising that next round, it's 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.480 about getting that next product launch. It's rushing to fill 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:26.720 the seats that are empty. And you know, one of 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:28.879 the things that I like to preach is having a 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:33.040 little patients and taking a little bit more time to 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:36.480 find someone who believes in your mission but doesn't necessarily 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:39.399 look like you, because it's about diversity of thought and 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:43.080 diversity of experience, and we all bring different experiences to 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:46.200 the table, and sometimes that is a result of what 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.159 we look like and how we have um lived in 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:52.480 this world. And if you don't have a diverse team 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.199 from the beginning, it gets so much harder as you 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:58.320 get bigger. But you will have blind spots, you will 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:01.359 make mistakes, you will miss things. And if you take 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:03.600 the time to be more thoughtful about how you're building 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:05.919 the team in the beginning, you will be able to 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:09.040 move so much faster a few years from then when 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:17.080 you have that diverse team in place, it's time to 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:18.880 take a quick break. We're going to be right back 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:30.119 with Emily Chang, and now back to our conversation with 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:36.120 journalist Emily Chang, author of pro Topia. So, Emily, you've 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:38.159 got a lot of attention when the first excerpt for 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:41.080 bro Topia was released in Vanity Fair. You wrote about 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:45.119 wild monthly sex parties attended by the tech elite. The 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:48.080 subhead of the piece was the guys got laid, but 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:51.080 the women get screwed, which I thought was clever and 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:55.000 also a bit depressing. And can you explain these parties? 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:58.040 How important are they and what the effect is for 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.720 women in tech? So, for of all, one of the 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:04.400 interesting things about Silicon Valley that may set it apart 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:07.960 from some other industries is that work bleeds into life. 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.480 In fact, life is work and that's just the way 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:15.720 things go. Um. And so you know, if you're working 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:17.280 at one of these companies, you're going out for drinks 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:20.800 after work, maybe for drinks in the middle of the day. Um. 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:25.280 And you know, there's this implicit pressure to be one 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:27.919 of the cool kids. And you know, there is a 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:31.440 subset of people in Silicon Valley who believes they're not 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:33.840 just changing the world when it comes to the products 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:38.840 that they're building. They're challenging social morais and challenging traditional morality, 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:43.320 challenging monogamy and that's all great. The Bay Area has 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:46.439 been um, you know, this this this hotbed of sexual 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:50.000 exploration and liberation for so so long. But if you 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:53.520 look at actually how some of this socializing happens, and 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:56.360 you know, I am quite descriptive about some of these 0:21:56.400 --> 0:22:00.320 parties where you have powerful men inviting women two to 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:03.520 one so that the odds are in their favor. It's 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:06.000 not challenging traditional morals at all. In fact, it's a 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:09.359 tale as old as time. You know, these women who 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:15.360 participate are discredited and disrespected, when for the men it's 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:18.840 like a networking opportunity, even though they're not trying to 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:22.520 do business. Business gets done. And so women sort of 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:24.080 feel like they're damned if they do and damned if 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:29.000 they don't. And for some people, this lifestyle was ever 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:31.159 present and they felt like they could not escape it. 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:34.399 And especially um some women entrepreneurs that I spoke with, 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:36.199 you know, they had to leave Slicon Valley moved to 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:39.119