1 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:26,810 Speaker 1: Pushkin. A winter's day in Chicago, early two thousand and nine. 2 00:00:27,690 --> 00:00:29,290 Speaker 2: It's cold. 3 00:00:29,690 --> 00:00:33,290 Speaker 1: Scott Wagger's pack, a newly elected alderman for the north 4 00:00:33,370 --> 00:00:38,370 Speaker 1: side of town, is keen to impress despite the freezing temperatures. 5 00:00:38,490 --> 00:00:42,410 Speaker 1: He's pounding the streets personally investigating a complaint about some 6 00:00:42,610 --> 00:00:47,450 Speaker 1: garbage blocking an alley. As he surveys the scene, piles 7 00:00:47,490 --> 00:00:52,250 Speaker 1: of paperwork everywhere, he realizes that this is no ordinary 8 00:00:52,410 --> 00:00:56,450 Speaker 1: pile of trash. This paperwork is all about the recent 9 00:00:56,650 --> 00:01:02,370 Speaker 1: controversial sale of Chicago's parking meters to a consortium led 10 00:01:02,410 --> 00:01:07,410 Speaker 1: by an investment bank, Morgan Stanley. The parking meters weren't 11 00:01:07,410 --> 00:01:10,210 Speaker 1: the first chunk of the city that Chicago's mayor had 12 00:01:10,210 --> 00:01:14,690 Speaker 1: sold off. Mayor Richard M. Daley was famous for it. 13 00:01:14,690 --> 00:01:17,690 Speaker 1: It was more than in the air, said Daly's chief 14 00:01:17,730 --> 00:01:21,010 Speaker 1: financial officer, Paul Volpey. We were the leaders in it. 15 00:01:21,370 --> 00:01:24,810 Speaker 1: You couldn't go anywhere without Mayor Daily's reputation for being 16 00:01:24,850 --> 00:01:27,290 Speaker 1: a leader in this industry being brought up to you. 17 00:01:28,130 --> 00:01:31,570 Speaker 1: Daily had privatized the toll road that ran between Chicago 18 00:01:31,810 --> 00:01:37,850 Speaker 1: and Indiana. He privatized delinquent tax collection, the city's janitorial services, 19 00:01:38,130 --> 00:01:41,490 Speaker 1: and was even working on a deal to privatize Midway Airport. 20 00:01:42,490 --> 00:01:46,530 Speaker 1: So when the idea came to privatize Chicago's parking meters, 21 00:01:46,970 --> 00:01:50,010 Speaker 1: a lot of people shrugged and said to themselves, sure, 22 00:01:50,410 --> 00:01:54,410 Speaker 1: why not. The idea had been raised in early two 23 00:01:54,530 --> 00:01:58,290 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, a year before Scott Waggerspak had found 24 00:01:58,330 --> 00:02:02,650 Speaker 1: all that paperwork in a freezing alley. At the time, 25 00:02:02,970 --> 00:02:07,650 Speaker 1: the global financial crisis was brewing and the city needed 26 00:02:07,690 --> 00:02:11,850 Speaker 1: some cash, so it held an auction for the right 27 00:02:12,010 --> 00:02:17,250 Speaker 1: to operate Chicago's street parking meter system. Whoever won that 28 00:02:17,330 --> 00:02:21,650 Speaker 1: auction would run the meters and keep the revenue. There 29 00:02:21,650 --> 00:02:24,650 Speaker 1: were only a couple of bidders, which wasn't ideal, but 30 00:02:24,890 --> 00:02:28,050 Speaker 1: one of those bidders, the consortium led by Morgan Stanley, 31 00:02:28,490 --> 00:02:33,090 Speaker 1: offered over a billion dollars one point one five six 32 00:02:33,090 --> 00:02:36,370 Speaker 1: billion dollars in fact, for the right to lease curbside 33 00:02:36,410 --> 00:02:41,170 Speaker 1: parking meters and collect parking fees across the city. At 34 00:02:41,170 --> 00:02:44,850 Speaker 1: the time, it wasn't clear who was investing with Morgan Stanley. 35 00:02:45,290 --> 00:02:47,890 Speaker 1: Scott Waggerspak had been asked to vote on the deal, 36 00:02:47,970 --> 00:02:50,850 Speaker 1: but he never felt had been given all the information 37 00:02:50,970 --> 00:02:55,730 Speaker 1: he needed. Now by sheer coincidence he was looking at 38 00:02:55,770 --> 00:03:00,570 Speaker 1: that information blowing around in a Chicago back alley. Apparently 39 00:03:00,810 --> 00:03:07,050 Speaker 1: one of the main investors was the Emir of Abu Dhabi. Whatever, 40 00:03:07,090 --> 00:03:11,090 Speaker 1: Morgan Stanley had negotiated a sweet enough deal to interest 41 00:03:11,210 --> 00:03:16,290 Speaker 1: sophisticated investors from around the world. What mattered, of course, 42 00:03:16,610 --> 00:03:20,130 Speaker 1: was whether it was a good deal for Chicago. So 43 00:03:20,770 --> 00:03:24,610 Speaker 1: was it On the surface, Perhaps the city was only 44 00:03:24,650 --> 00:03:28,410 Speaker 1: making twenty million dollars a year in meter fees. Chicago 45 00:03:28,490 --> 00:03:32,050 Speaker 1: could just stick Morgan Stanley's money in the bank, earn 46 00:03:32,090 --> 00:03:34,570 Speaker 1: a couple of percent interest and make more than that, 47 00:03:35,410 --> 00:03:39,130 Speaker 1: all money which could fund services for the city's hard working, 48 00:03:39,610 --> 00:03:44,530 Speaker 1: tax paying citizens. Even better, the city would get the 49 00:03:44,610 --> 00:03:49,010 Speaker 1: rights to the parking meters back eventually, although admittedly not 50 00:03:49,170 --> 00:03:53,890 Speaker 1: until twenty eighty four. Morgan Stanley had bid for a 51 00:03:54,010 --> 00:03:59,650 Speaker 1: seventy five year lease. But still, a billion dollars is 52 00:03:59,690 --> 00:04:05,330 Speaker 1: a lot of money, isn't it. I'm Tim Harford and 53 00:04:05,410 --> 00:04:34,570 Speaker 1: you're listening to cautionary tales. Parking is an emotional issue 54 00:04:34,650 --> 00:04:37,970 Speaker 1: in a town like Chicago. In two thousand and eight, 55 00:04:38,290 --> 00:04:41,090 Speaker 1: around the time the meet A deal was being negotiated, 56 00:04:41,450 --> 00:04:46,290 Speaker 1: Chicago Tribune's John Cass devoted a column to describing a 57 00:04:46,330 --> 00:04:51,810 Speaker 1: fight over a parking space. One fellow Abe squeezed his 58 00:04:51,930 --> 00:04:54,370 Speaker 1: car in too close for the comfort of the other 59 00:04:54,450 --> 00:04:59,170 Speaker 1: car's driver, Carol. She told him he couldn't park there. 60 00:04:59,450 --> 00:05:03,130 Speaker 1: He told her she had nothing to worry about. Lady, 61 00:05:03,370 --> 00:05:07,210 Speaker 1: I'm not going to hit your car, Abe declared. Then 62 00:05:07,410 --> 00:05:10,930 Speaker 1: her husband, Joseph, showed up and started arguing. There was 63 00:05:10,970 --> 00:05:14,970 Speaker 1: some shouting, then some shoving, and before long Joseph was 64 00:05:15,010 --> 00:05:18,370 Speaker 1: in an ambulance an Abe was handcuffed in the back 65 00:05:18,410 --> 00:05:22,370 Speaker 1: of a police car. Abe was an Air Force veteran 66 00:05:22,450 --> 00:05:26,570 Speaker 1: of the Second World War. He was eighty two. Joseph, 67 00:05:26,970 --> 00:05:32,530 Speaker 1: his fallen opponent, was a sprightly eighty Just another day 68 00:05:33,090 --> 00:05:39,170 Speaker 1: arguing about parking in Chicago. Given the fact that feelings 69 00:05:39,210 --> 00:05:41,970 Speaker 1: tend to run high on the topic of parking, some 70 00:05:42,050 --> 00:05:46,090 Speaker 1: of Chicago's aldermen were uneasy when the meter leasing deal 71 00:05:46,210 --> 00:05:49,650 Speaker 1: was placed in front of them. The council's decision making 72 00:05:49,690 --> 00:05:53,530 Speaker 1: process seemed rushed, even if the city administration had been 73 00:05:53,570 --> 00:05:57,050 Speaker 1: working on the idea for almost a year. You had 74 00:05:57,050 --> 00:06:00,810 Speaker 1: a year, but you're giving us two days, complained one alderman. 75 00:06:01,330 --> 00:06:05,930 Speaker 1: Why are we rushing asked another. The proposed deal was 76 00:06:06,090 --> 00:06:10,570 Speaker 1: five hundred and twenty one pages long, written in legal ease. 77 00:06:11,210 --> 00:06:16,090 Speaker 1: What does that all mean? Lamented a third. Scott Waggerspack 78 00:06:16,170 --> 00:06:19,410 Speaker 1: had been in the room. He decided he needed a 79 00:06:19,450 --> 00:06:22,730 Speaker 1: reality check on the offer. He hurriedly slapped together his 80 00:06:22,850 --> 00:06:28,010 Speaker 1: own calculations and almost immediately realized why Morgan Stanley's billion 81 00:06:28,090 --> 00:06:31,730 Speaker 1: dollar in change offer might be less generous than it looked. 82 00:06:33,250 --> 00:06:36,330 Speaker 1: Chicago might only be making twenty million dollars a year 83 00:06:36,370 --> 00:06:39,770 Speaker 1: from META fees, but some of those META rates hadn't 84 00:06:39,850 --> 00:06:44,010 Speaker 1: changed since the nineteen eighties. Twenty million dollars was nothing 85 00:06:44,130 --> 00:06:46,930 Speaker 1: compared to what could be squeezed out of those metered 86 00:06:47,010 --> 00:06:50,690 Speaker 1: parking spots. It would be easy enough to double, triple, 87 00:06:50,890 --> 00:06:54,970 Speaker 1: even quadruple rates. In fact, the city's own officials had 88 00:06:54,970 --> 00:06:58,690 Speaker 1: floated the idea of increasing meta rates and nearly tripling 89 00:06:58,730 --> 00:07:02,090 Speaker 1: META revenues just a couple of years earlier, and it 90 00:07:02,210 --> 00:07:06,130 Speaker 1: wasn't a secret that Morgan Stanley planned to raise Meta rates. 91 00:07:06,650 --> 00:07:10,010 Speaker 1: Alderman Waggerspack's estimate was that the More and Stanley group 92 00:07:10,210 --> 00:07:12,810 Speaker 1: could pay the city three or four times as much 93 00:07:13,290 --> 00:07:17,250 Speaker 1: and still be in profit. But when Wagaspack tried to 94 00:07:17,250 --> 00:07:20,530 Speaker 1: get the city's budget director to answer some questions during 95 00:07:20,530 --> 00:07:24,570 Speaker 1: a council meeting coffee break. It didn't go well. He 96 00:07:24,690 --> 00:07:29,730 Speaker 1: literally ran off, says Wagerspac. And Wagerspack wasn't a heavy 97 00:07:29,810 --> 00:07:35,050 Speaker 1: hitter like Mayor Daily, Daily was the ultimate insider. His dad, 98 00:07:35,370 --> 00:07:38,770 Speaker 1: Richard J. Daily, had also been the Mayor of Chicago, 99 00:07:39,370 --> 00:07:42,490 Speaker 1: Mayor for life. The joke went after he served for 100 00:07:42,570 --> 00:07:46,930 Speaker 1: twenty one years. Mayor Daily the second was also just 101 00:07:47,010 --> 00:07:50,410 Speaker 1: about to pass the twenty year mark. A heavy jowled, 102 00:07:50,770 --> 00:07:54,690 Speaker 1: suit and tie power broker well into his sixties who 103 00:07:54,730 --> 00:07:58,930 Speaker 1: combined old school Chicago politics with the corporate ease of 104 00:07:58,970 --> 00:08:03,370 Speaker 1: a trained lawyer. Wagerspack was a dorky looking thirty something 105 00:08:03,450 --> 00:08:07,570 Speaker 1: from Colorado via Kenya, where he'd served in the Peace Corps. 106 00:08:08,170 --> 00:08:11,610 Speaker 1: Freshly elected, he was the perfect person to cast a 107 00:08:11,690 --> 00:08:15,490 Speaker 1: critical eye over the parking meter deal, but very poorly 108 00:08:15,530 --> 00:08:19,210 Speaker 1: positioned to do much about it because the pressure to 109 00:08:19,370 --> 00:08:24,490 Speaker 1: pass the deal was on. To delay it puts our 110 00:08:24,570 --> 00:08:29,370 Speaker 1: budget at risk, declared Chicago CFO Paul Volpei, this is 111 00:08:29,410 --> 00:08:34,850 Speaker 1: the deal. We either accepted or we don't. Listener they 112 00:08:35,050 --> 00:08:43,210 Speaker 1: accepted it. Chicago Parking Meters or CPM, the company set 113 00:08:43,290 --> 00:08:46,450 Speaker 1: up by the Morgan Stanley Consortium, took over the city's 114 00:08:46,490 --> 00:08:50,530 Speaker 1: meters in two thousand and nine. The early weeks didn't 115 00:08:50,530 --> 00:08:55,970 Speaker 1: go smoothly. Chicagoans were soon furious not only about the 116 00:08:56,010 --> 00:08:59,890 Speaker 1: way that CPM immediately jacked up the parking charges and 117 00:09:00,050 --> 00:09:03,210 Speaker 1: extended the meeted hours, but also about the fact that 118 00:09:03,290 --> 00:09:07,250 Speaker 1: they neglected to change the signs in forming drivers about 119 00:09:07,290 --> 00:09:11,650 Speaker 1: the new hours and charges, Adding insult to injury. The 120 00:09:11,730 --> 00:09:15,530 Speaker 1: parking meters started to choke on all quarters that were 121 00:09:15,570 --> 00:09:19,570 Speaker 1: being fed into them. CPM couldn't get round to empty 122 00:09:19,610 --> 00:09:23,570 Speaker 1: them fast enough. Even when the meters were working, drivers 123 00:09:23,650 --> 00:09:27,210 Speaker 1: didn't enjoy having to carry buckets of quarters around in 124 00:09:27,250 --> 00:09:31,650 Speaker 1: their cars. Every quarter fed into a parking meter seemed 125 00:09:31,690 --> 00:09:36,050 Speaker 1: to be going direct to Wall Street. Some suburbanites wrote 126 00:09:36,090 --> 00:09:39,930 Speaker 1: to the Chicago Press explaining that they would be avoiding 127 00:09:39,970 --> 00:09:45,090 Speaker 1: the city at all costs. Personally, I'm in full boycott mode, 128 00:09:45,250 --> 00:09:48,930 Speaker 1: wrote one. I'll stand on my head to spare myself 129 00:09:48,930 --> 00:09:52,330 Speaker 1: a visit if street parking is involved, to hell with Chicago. 130 00:09:53,770 --> 00:09:57,330 Speaker 1: Another correspondent explained that she was being treated for breast 131 00:09:57,330 --> 00:10:01,290 Speaker 1: cancer in a city hospital before the privatization. She might 132 00:10:01,370 --> 00:10:03,290 Speaker 1: have to wait a while to find a spot, but 133 00:10:03,570 --> 00:10:05,890 Speaker 1: then she'd put in a few quarters and head in 134 00:10:05,930 --> 00:10:10,050 Speaker 1: for her radiotherapy. Now, however, she put in her first 135 00:10:10,130 --> 00:10:14,490 Speaker 1: quarter and realized it would only buy seven minutes. Seven 136 00:10:14,890 --> 00:10:17,530 Speaker 1: I start thinking I'm there early, and I'll be there 137 00:10:17,530 --> 00:10:19,730 Speaker 1: for a while. They might run late, so we need 138 00:10:19,730 --> 00:10:22,490 Speaker 1: to build some cushion time in. So I calculate all that, 139 00:10:22,770 --> 00:10:25,090 Speaker 1: realize I don't have eight pounds of quarters with me. 140 00:10:25,650 --> 00:10:31,690 Speaker 1: Screw you daily. One of Mayor Daly's public relations advisors, 141 00:10:31,890 --> 00:10:36,010 Speaker 1: Marilyn Katz, put it even more bluntly. It's one thing 142 00:10:36,050 --> 00:10:39,610 Speaker 1: to give away and sell your airports, she said, but 143 00:10:39,730 --> 00:10:42,930 Speaker 1: the parking meters were an insult every day that said 144 00:10:43,290 --> 00:10:47,770 Speaker 1: if you every time you parked your car. And six 145 00:10:47,810 --> 00:10:51,290 Speaker 1: months after the deal had been signed, the city's Inspector 146 00:10:51,330 --> 00:10:55,050 Speaker 1: General released a report explaining that, in effect, when the 147 00:10:55,090 --> 00:10:58,010 Speaker 1: City of Chicago had signed that deal with Morgan Stanley, 148 00:10:58,410 --> 00:11:02,370 Speaker 1: the city had had its face ripped off. The Inspector 149 00:11:02,410 --> 00:11:05,650 Speaker 1: General reckoned the fair price of the deal was two 150 00:11:05,810 --> 00:11:10,050 Speaker 1: or three times what the city had been paid standing itself. 151 00:11:10,170 --> 00:11:13,730 Speaker 1: Told investors, and I'm slightly oversimplifying here, but only slightly, 152 00:11:14,170 --> 00:11:16,850 Speaker 1: that they wouldn't have to wait seventy five years to 153 00:11:16,890 --> 00:11:19,570 Speaker 1: make their money back. They might well make their money 154 00:11:19,610 --> 00:11:25,930 Speaker 1: back inside the first decade. Ouch It was just as 155 00:11:26,090 --> 00:11:30,650 Speaker 1: Alderman Scott Waggerspac had predicted, But then came something he 156 00:11:30,850 --> 00:11:35,810 Speaker 1: hadn't predicted. In February two thousand and nine, barely weeks 157 00:11:35,850 --> 00:11:39,290 Speaker 1: after he had voted in vain against the deal, wagers 158 00:11:39,330 --> 00:11:43,290 Speaker 1: Pack was informed that across his neighborhood in Chicago's North Side, 159 00:11:43,850 --> 00:11:49,290 Speaker 1: CPM would start charging to park on Sundays. Sundays had 160 00:11:49,330 --> 00:11:53,530 Speaker 1: previously been a day of worship, rest, and free parking. 161 00:11:54,290 --> 00:11:58,850 Speaker 1: This was not going to go down well with Wagerspack's constituents. 162 00:11:58,970 --> 00:12:02,770 Speaker 1: He proposed keeping the old shorter hours and the free 163 00:12:02,770 --> 00:12:06,770 Speaker 1: Sunday parking on a few hundred of the meters. It 164 00:12:06,770 --> 00:12:10,530 Speaker 1: could be done, explained City of Fishing, But under the 165 00:12:10,650 --> 00:12:13,610 Speaker 1: terms of the deal with Morgan Stanley, the city would 166 00:12:13,650 --> 00:12:18,210 Speaker 1: have to pay compensation for interfering with CPM's right to 167 00:12:18,330 --> 00:12:23,930 Speaker 1: charge what it wanted when it wanted. How much compensation, Well, 168 00:12:24,570 --> 00:12:28,250 Speaker 1: a few hundred thousand dollars a year, and that's for 169 00:12:28,330 --> 00:12:31,890 Speaker 1: a small change to fewer than one percent of the 170 00:12:31,890 --> 00:12:37,530 Speaker 1: city's meters. As the journalist Henry Gribar explains in his 171 00:12:37,650 --> 00:12:42,690 Speaker 1: book Paved Paradise. That was the moment the truth about 172 00:12:42,690 --> 00:12:47,130 Speaker 1: the full implications of the deal dawned on Scott Wagger's pack. 173 00:12:48,050 --> 00:12:52,850 Speaker 1: Chicago City Council hadn't just traded away parking revenue. They'd 174 00:12:52,890 --> 00:13:02,650 Speaker 1: traded away the streets themselves. Cautionary tales will be back 175 00:13:03,250 --> 00:13:14,650 Speaker 1: after the break, Chicago was starting to realize just how 176 00:13:14,730 --> 00:13:18,890 Speaker 1: much control it had ceded to Wall Street. The Morgan 177 00:13:18,930 --> 00:13:22,330 Speaker 1: Stanley deal was predicated on a particular number of meters 178 00:13:22,490 --> 00:13:28,410 Speaker 1: in particular spots on Chicago's curb sides. When rama Manuel 179 00:13:28,810 --> 00:13:32,610 Speaker 1: succeeded Richard M. Daley as mayor, his team arrived with 180 00:13:32,730 --> 00:13:37,290 Speaker 1: visions of a greener, more walkable city. Those visions soon 181 00:13:37,370 --> 00:13:41,290 Speaker 1: made painful contact with the reality that Daly's team had 182 00:13:41,330 --> 00:13:47,170 Speaker 1: negotiated those nice little pocket parklets, tiny urban oases of 183 00:13:47,490 --> 00:13:50,970 Speaker 1: seats and lush planters, each one squeezed into a former 184 00:13:51,050 --> 00:13:54,970 Speaker 1: parking spot. That is going to cost you, said CPM, 185 00:13:55,530 --> 00:13:59,810 Speaker 1: our parking spot, our meter, our lost revenue. But the 186 00:13:59,850 --> 00:14:04,130 Speaker 1: city could rent back prime downtown spots for the low, 187 00:14:04,250 --> 00:14:12,770 Speaker 1: low price of one thousand dollars each month. What about 188 00:14:12,770 --> 00:14:16,010 Speaker 1: the idea of an open Streets festival in which the 189 00:14:16,050 --> 00:14:20,450 Speaker 1: streets would be closed temporarily to motorized traffic, allowing kids 190 00:14:20,530 --> 00:14:23,650 Speaker 1: to play games or ride their bikes. Neighborhoods to hold 191 00:14:23,690 --> 00:14:26,970 Speaker 1: block parties, that sort of thing. Don't even ask what 192 00:14:27,010 --> 00:14:32,290 Speaker 1: that's going to cost. The scheme was abandoned. Every idea 193 00:14:32,490 --> 00:14:36,690 Speaker 1: for greening Chicago streets had a serious price tag attached. 194 00:14:37,410 --> 00:14:42,210 Speaker 1: Bike racks, drop off zones for restaurants and stores, Bans 195 00:14:42,290 --> 00:14:46,610 Speaker 1: on parking in rush hour to ease congestion, no parking 196 00:14:46,690 --> 00:14:51,970 Speaker 1: zones near intersections to improve visibility and safety, all possible 197 00:14:52,730 --> 00:14:57,730 Speaker 1: for a price congestion pricing to raise money and ease congestion. 198 00:14:58,210 --> 00:15:01,690 Speaker 1: Forget it. Such a scheme was just impractical in the 199 00:15:01,770 --> 00:15:05,810 Speaker 1: light of CPM's right to parking revenues, and whether you're 200 00:15:05,890 --> 00:15:09,130 Speaker 1: in favor of congestion pricing or not, it does it 201 00:15:09,170 --> 00:15:12,370 Speaker 1: seem that to rule it out for seventy five years 202 00:15:12,890 --> 00:15:16,610 Speaker 1: as a side effect of a deal over parking meters, well, 203 00:15:16,810 --> 00:15:20,930 Speaker 1: that's not how a democracy should really work. Bike lanes, 204 00:15:21,170 --> 00:15:23,850 Speaker 1: bus lanes don't make me laugh. Do you know how 205 00:15:23,930 --> 00:15:26,490 Speaker 1: much parking they eat up? Do you know how much 206 00:15:26,530 --> 00:15:28,730 Speaker 1: money the city would have to pay over to Morgan 207 00:15:28,770 --> 00:15:33,610 Speaker 1: Stanley's group curbside seating for restaurants during the pandemic. Sure, 208 00:15:33,810 --> 00:15:37,530 Speaker 1: of course this is a global emergency. Oh, by the way, 209 00:15:39,330 --> 00:15:44,290 Speaker 1: pay up. There were workarounds to be sure. If the 210 00:15:44,290 --> 00:15:48,330 Speaker 1: city could find suitable alternative spots, they could install meters 211 00:15:48,330 --> 00:15:51,090 Speaker 1: in those spots and hand over the meter rights to 212 00:15:51,170 --> 00:15:55,610 Speaker 1: CPM as a form of compensation. But that was complicated 213 00:15:56,010 --> 00:16:01,730 Speaker 1: and the alternative spots were soon all used up. Chicago's 214 00:16:01,770 --> 00:16:06,410 Speaker 1: privatization of parking meters is widely regarded as a fiasco, 215 00:16:07,170 --> 00:16:11,570 Speaker 1: a quintessential cautionary time. If they really needed money so 216 00:16:11,730 --> 00:16:14,410 Speaker 1: badly back in two thousand and eight, they could have 217 00:16:14,530 --> 00:16:18,610 Speaker 1: borrowed from the bond markets, in which countless bidders compete 218 00:16:18,690 --> 00:16:22,650 Speaker 1: to lend money to cities. Instead, they signed away their 219 00:16:22,690 --> 00:16:27,410 Speaker 1: control over parking and over the streets themselves for seventy 220 00:16:27,570 --> 00:16:30,930 Speaker 1: five years to the winner of an auction in which 221 00:16:30,970 --> 00:16:33,890 Speaker 1: there were only two bidders, and they sold it cheap. 222 00:16:36,210 --> 00:16:39,690 Speaker 1: Yet there is an irony here, As Henry Gribar argues 223 00:16:39,730 --> 00:16:43,690 Speaker 1: in Paved Paradise, some of what CPM was doing on 224 00:16:43,770 --> 00:16:47,930 Speaker 1: behalf of its international backers was actually good parking policy. 225 00:16:48,450 --> 00:16:51,170 Speaker 1: One reason to have parking meters in the first place 226 00:16:51,490 --> 00:16:53,650 Speaker 1: is to make sure that people who need to park 227 00:16:53,890 --> 00:16:56,170 Speaker 1: can find a space, even if they have to pay. 228 00:16:57,010 --> 00:17:01,050 Speaker 1: Chicago had long underpriced parking, which meant that there was 229 00:17:01,090 --> 00:17:03,890 Speaker 1: too much demand for these cheap spaces and not enough 230 00:17:03,930 --> 00:17:07,170 Speaker 1: spaces to go around. You can see that easily enough 231 00:17:07,210 --> 00:17:11,250 Speaker 1: by looking at Chicago's parking revenue. Before the deal, the 232 00:17:11,290 --> 00:17:15,930 Speaker 1: city made ten times as much from parking fines than 233 00:17:15,970 --> 00:17:21,130 Speaker 1: from parking charges. Parking spaces were so cheap that counterintuitively, 234 00:17:21,410 --> 00:17:25,810 Speaker 1: people had to park illegally instead because the cheap legal 235 00:17:25,850 --> 00:17:31,330 Speaker 1: spaces were so often full. That changed after privatization. There 236 00:17:31,330 --> 00:17:34,930 Speaker 1: were almost always some free spaces, which meant that nobody 237 00:17:34,970 --> 00:17:38,050 Speaker 1: needed to park illegally and nobody clogged up the streets 238 00:17:38,130 --> 00:17:41,730 Speaker 1: driving around in search of a space. Businesses started to 239 00:17:41,770 --> 00:17:44,930 Speaker 1: notice that they made more money when street parking was 240 00:17:45,010 --> 00:17:48,370 Speaker 1: priced high enough to free up spaces. In fact, some 241 00:17:48,410 --> 00:17:52,570 Speaker 1: of them lobbed against the reintroduction of free Sunday parking. 242 00:17:53,450 --> 00:17:57,290 Speaker 1: Other people switched to buses and trains and bikes, easing 243 00:17:57,370 --> 00:18:03,290 Speaker 1: congestion and reducing pollution. All of these benefits emerged once 244 00:18:03,370 --> 00:18:08,130 Speaker 1: somebody took parking seriously and forced drivers to pay real 245 00:18:08,210 --> 00:18:11,850 Speaker 1: money for a value service. If only the City of 246 00:18:11,930 --> 00:18:14,970 Speaker 1: Chicago had had the courage to do that job itself, 247 00:18:15,610 --> 00:18:18,570 Speaker 1: rather than handing over the responsibility and most of the 248 00:18:18,570 --> 00:18:23,810 Speaker 1: financial gains to Morgan Stanley and friends. The deal had 249 00:18:23,850 --> 00:18:26,530 Speaker 1: been signed at the end of two thousand and eight, 250 00:18:27,130 --> 00:18:30,970 Speaker 1: when Morgan Stanley paid more than a billion dollars one thousand, 251 00:18:31,170 --> 00:18:35,610 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty six million. By the time Richard M. 252 00:18:35,730 --> 00:18:40,370 Speaker 1: Daley left office in twenty eleven, three years later, only 253 00:18:40,450 --> 00:18:44,690 Speaker 1: seventy six million dollars was left. The other one thousand 254 00:18:44,770 --> 00:18:50,010 Speaker 1: and eighty million dollars had been spent. By twenty nineteen, 255 00:18:50,770 --> 00:18:54,730 Speaker 1: Morgan Stanley and partners had made back their initial investment, 256 00:18:55,330 --> 00:18:58,450 Speaker 1: Chicago had spent the money, Morgan Stanley were in profit, 257 00:18:58,850 --> 00:19:02,130 Speaker 1: and there were sixty four years of the deal still 258 00:19:02,170 --> 00:19:06,170 Speaker 1: to run. Not to worry, that was a few years back. 259 00:19:07,090 --> 00:19:20,090 Speaker 1: Now there were only six decades left. This episode of 260 00:19:20,090 --> 00:19:23,410 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales was based with permission, on the reporting of 261 00:19:23,530 --> 00:19:26,970 Speaker 1: Henry Grabbar in his book Paved Paradise, and I strongly 262 00:19:27,010 --> 00:19:28,890 Speaker 1: recommend you get hold of a copy as soon as 263 00:19:28,890 --> 00:19:32,930 Speaker 1: you can. But Chicago's parking Meeter fiasco isn't the only 264 00:19:33,050 --> 00:19:36,290 Speaker 1: cautionary tale in Henry's book, and so I present to 265 00:19:36,290 --> 00:19:40,650 Speaker 1: you our first ever hybrid episode of cautionary tales, half 266 00:19:40,690 --> 00:19:45,850 Speaker 1: traditional tale and half cautionary conversation with Henry Grabar. Henry, 267 00:19:45,890 --> 00:19:46,730 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. 268 00:19:46,970 --> 00:19:47,730 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. 269 00:19:48,010 --> 00:19:51,810 Speaker 1: We heard this story about two octogenarians beating each other 270 00:19:51,930 --> 00:19:54,210 Speaker 1: up in an argument over a parking space, and it's 271 00:19:54,290 --> 00:19:57,370 Speaker 1: not the only such story you tell others in your book. 272 00:19:57,850 --> 00:20:00,450 Speaker 1: Why is it that people get so upset about parking? 273 00:20:01,490 --> 00:20:04,730 Speaker 3: Well, I don't blame them for it. Actually, I think 274 00:20:04,730 --> 00:20:09,490 Speaker 3: it's natural to be upset about access to parking when 275 00:20:09,690 --> 00:20:13,370 Speaker 3: you live in a society where it has become impossible 276 00:20:13,690 --> 00:20:17,210 Speaker 3: to do even the most basic tasks like buying a 277 00:20:17,250 --> 00:20:20,050 Speaker 3: gallon of milk or taking your kids to school without 278 00:20:20,130 --> 00:20:22,770 Speaker 3: using your car. So we have built for ourselves a 279 00:20:22,810 --> 00:20:26,610 Speaker 3: place in which parking and finding parking has become a 280 00:20:26,650 --> 00:20:30,610 Speaker 3: precondition of life itself, and so naturally people do tend 281 00:20:30,850 --> 00:20:33,690 Speaker 3: to get upset when they don't find parking spaces. And 282 00:20:33,730 --> 00:20:36,770 Speaker 3: so I think the challenge here is not just to 283 00:20:37,530 --> 00:20:40,290 Speaker 3: ask people to chill out about parking, but to focus 284 00:20:40,330 --> 00:20:44,170 Speaker 3: on redesigning communities in a way where parking becomes less important. 285 00:20:44,210 --> 00:20:47,290 Speaker 3: And by the way, even as the author of a 286 00:20:47,370 --> 00:20:50,250 Speaker 3: book that argues that while we made a lot of 287 00:20:50,330 --> 00:20:53,370 Speaker 3: mistakes about parking, I am not immune from this. I mean, 288 00:20:53,530 --> 00:20:56,810 Speaker 3: I don't like paying for parking any more than anybody 289 00:20:56,810 --> 00:20:59,890 Speaker 3: else does. I get parking tickets too, And I grew 290 00:20:59,970 --> 00:21:01,850 Speaker 3: up in New York City, and I feel like the 291 00:21:02,730 --> 00:21:06,250 Speaker 3: expectation that parking is going to be really challenging is 292 00:21:06,330 --> 00:21:09,410 Speaker 3: so ingrained in the way I think about city life 293 00:21:09,410 --> 00:21:11,730 Speaker 3: that when I'm driving, my movie is always to take 294 00:21:11,770 --> 00:21:14,530 Speaker 3: the first parking spot I find, even if I'm six 295 00:21:14,570 --> 00:21:17,490 Speaker 3: blocks away from my destination. Right, because you have scars 296 00:21:17,890 --> 00:21:19,610 Speaker 3: from looking for parking in New York City for too 297 00:21:19,650 --> 00:21:20,370 Speaker 3: many years. 298 00:21:20,650 --> 00:21:22,490 Speaker 1: Why did you want to write a book about parking. 299 00:21:22,850 --> 00:21:25,610 Speaker 3: Well, I'm a reporter by day, and the stories that 300 00:21:25,690 --> 00:21:29,210 Speaker 3: I write are about cities, so I write about architecture 301 00:21:29,250 --> 00:21:33,290 Speaker 3: and real estate and infrastructure, climate change, housing, stuff like this. 302 00:21:33,890 --> 00:21:37,450 Speaker 3: And I began to find that in every single story 303 00:21:37,530 --> 00:21:40,250 Speaker 3: that I started to work on, there was this hidden 304 00:21:40,330 --> 00:21:44,610 Speaker 3: element that kept coming up that would change the way 305 00:21:44,690 --> 00:21:46,970 Speaker 3: I understood what I was writing about. And that element, 306 00:21:47,010 --> 00:21:50,970 Speaker 3: of course, was parking and in the United States, parking 307 00:21:51,610 --> 00:21:55,690 Speaker 3: is actually a fundamental concern of architecture and real estate. 308 00:21:55,770 --> 00:21:58,890 Speaker 3: It's the first thing that a developer considers when they 309 00:21:58,930 --> 00:22:01,570 Speaker 3: decide what they can put on a lot. Because of that, 310 00:22:01,730 --> 00:22:05,210 Speaker 3: it's an essential component of housing. It determines the cost 311 00:22:05,250 --> 00:22:08,290 Speaker 3: of housing, the quantity of housing, the type of housing 312 00:22:08,290 --> 00:22:11,130 Speaker 3: we get in terms of its design. And then finally, 313 00:22:11,130 --> 00:22:14,290 Speaker 3: by becoming such a major component of the urban environment, 314 00:22:14,330 --> 00:22:18,090 Speaker 3: it also changes the environment, like capital e in terms 315 00:22:18,130 --> 00:22:22,730 Speaker 3: of our relationship with rain, with heat, with pollution. I mean, 316 00:22:22,810 --> 00:22:25,530 Speaker 3: this was perhaps the most shocking revelation to me of 317 00:22:25,610 --> 00:22:28,490 Speaker 3: all was when I went to Houston after Hurricane Harvey 318 00:22:28,530 --> 00:22:31,850 Speaker 3: had devastated the city flooded tens of thousands of homes, 319 00:22:32,050 --> 00:22:34,890 Speaker 3: and I began to look at the rainfall records in 320 00:22:34,930 --> 00:22:38,250 Speaker 3: Houston over the years. And while it's true that storms 321 00:22:38,290 --> 00:22:41,570 Speaker 3: have gotten more intense in Houston over the last few decades, 322 00:22:41,930 --> 00:22:44,610 Speaker 3: what has grown much faster is the amount of runoff 323 00:22:44,650 --> 00:22:47,810 Speaker 3: that's created. That rain hits the city of Houston, which 324 00:22:47,850 --> 00:22:51,330 Speaker 3: is one of the most auto dependent paved over cities 325 00:22:51,370 --> 00:22:54,290 Speaker 3: in the United States, and it doesn't go anywhere, It 326 00:22:54,410 --> 00:22:57,290 Speaker 3: just stays on that pavement that asphalt that concrete, and 327 00:22:57,330 --> 00:23:02,370 Speaker 3: in this way, providing all this parking actually changes our landscape, right. 328 00:23:02,490 --> 00:23:06,410 Speaker 3: It becomes a major component determining whose house floods during 329 00:23:06,410 --> 00:23:09,010 Speaker 3: a rainstorm, just because of all the land that's been 330 00:23:09,090 --> 00:23:12,610 Speaker 3: converted into impervious surface. So that was a revelation for me. 331 00:23:13,050 --> 00:23:15,970 Speaker 1: There was a very striking sentence early on in your book, 332 00:23:16,330 --> 00:23:19,610 Speaker 1: You're right, parking is a mutant strain of yeast in 333 00:23:19,690 --> 00:23:23,690 Speaker 1: the dough of architecture, making our designs bigger, uglier, and 334 00:23:23,850 --> 00:23:27,810 Speaker 1: further apart. If the Empire State Building had been built 335 00:23:27,850 --> 00:23:31,570 Speaker 1: to the minimum parking requirements of a contemporary American city, 336 00:23:31,850 --> 00:23:36,690 Speaker 1: for example, its surface parking lot would cover twelve whole blocks, 337 00:23:37,050 --> 00:23:39,010 Speaker 1: and that would be a legal requirement. You'd have to 338 00:23:39,050 --> 00:23:41,970 Speaker 1: do it. Why do we have these laws and these rules. 339 00:23:42,450 --> 00:23:46,890 Speaker 3: I think these rules often seem inexplicable when you read 340 00:23:46,930 --> 00:23:50,090 Speaker 3: about them and you understand the way they stifle our 341 00:23:50,130 --> 00:23:55,170 Speaker 3: ability to provide attractive architecture, walkable neighborhoods, affordable housing and 342 00:23:55,210 --> 00:23:57,450 Speaker 3: all that. But I think if you put yourself in 343 00:23:57,530 --> 00:24:00,490 Speaker 3: the shoes of the urban planners of the nineteen fifties, 344 00:24:00,690 --> 00:24:01,930 Speaker 3: they begin to make more sense. 345 00:24:02,730 --> 00:24:04,410 Speaker 2: Now in the nineteen fifties. 346 00:24:04,850 --> 00:24:08,530 Speaker 3: Most cities in the United States had scarcely changed in 347 00:24:08,610 --> 00:24:11,250 Speaker 3: terms of their urban form since the beginning of the 348 00:24:11,250 --> 00:24:14,730 Speaker 3: twentieth century, and so obviously these big cities after the 349 00:24:14,770 --> 00:24:18,250 Speaker 3: Second World War are overrun with cars and traffic, and 350 00:24:18,450 --> 00:24:20,810 Speaker 3: planners think that the root of this problem is parking, 351 00:24:20,970 --> 00:24:23,090 Speaker 3: and that the reason there's so much traffic is that 352 00:24:23,130 --> 00:24:25,610 Speaker 3: everybody's looking for a parking space and there isn't anywhere 353 00:24:25,650 --> 00:24:26,530 Speaker 3: for anyone to park. 354 00:24:26,330 --> 00:24:29,530 Speaker 1: Which is not so they be wrong, right, shocking statistics 355 00:24:29,530 --> 00:24:33,250 Speaker 1: in your book about how much time and how how 356 00:24:33,290 --> 00:24:36,490 Speaker 1: many miles people drive just looking for parking spots, and 357 00:24:36,690 --> 00:24:39,130 Speaker 1: you know what percentage of the traffic on the road 358 00:24:39,210 --> 00:24:42,450 Speaker 1: is just drivers circling around looking for a free spot. 359 00:24:42,610 --> 00:24:44,450 Speaker 1: So it's not an absurd thing for them to think. 360 00:24:45,090 --> 00:24:47,050 Speaker 3: No, it's not an absurd thing for them to think 361 00:24:47,090 --> 00:24:50,330 Speaker 3: at all. And suburbs are really on the rise at 362 00:24:50,330 --> 00:24:53,130 Speaker 3: this point. Big new malls open with lots and lots 363 00:24:53,130 --> 00:24:55,610 Speaker 3: of free parking, and cities see this and they think 364 00:24:55,890 --> 00:24:59,290 Speaker 3: we have to up our parking standards to compete with 365 00:24:59,410 --> 00:25:02,770 Speaker 3: the suburbs. And this is a fatal mistake because cities 366 00:25:02,810 --> 00:25:05,610 Speaker 3: are never going to be able to offer the easy, 367 00:25:05,650 --> 00:25:08,970 Speaker 3: ample parking for free that is so common and so 368 00:25:09,130 --> 00:25:13,410 Speaker 3: expected at many suburban locations, it just can't work geometrically. Nevertheless, 369 00:25:13,690 --> 00:25:15,450 Speaker 3: they gave it their best shot, and one of the 370 00:25:15,450 --> 00:25:17,370 Speaker 3: ways they did so was a kind of sneaky thing 371 00:25:17,410 --> 00:25:20,090 Speaker 3: they did. They said, well, if we build all this parking, 372 00:25:20,210 --> 00:25:22,930 Speaker 3: the city's going to go bankrupt. So let's just give 373 00:25:22,970 --> 00:25:26,370 Speaker 3: it to the private sector. Let's make private developers bear 374 00:25:26,450 --> 00:25:29,570 Speaker 3: the cost of this transition. And the way we'll do 375 00:25:29,610 --> 00:25:31,570 Speaker 3: that is will pass laws that say that every newer 376 00:25:31,650 --> 00:25:35,210 Speaker 3: renovated building has to include extra y number of parking spaces, 377 00:25:35,410 --> 00:25:38,410 Speaker 3: and before long we will be competitive with the suburbs 378 00:25:38,410 --> 00:25:41,170 Speaker 3: in terms of parking. And I think it worked beyond 379 00:25:41,210 --> 00:25:43,930 Speaker 3: their wildest dreams because there's a lot of American cities 380 00:25:43,930 --> 00:25:46,330 Speaker 3: you can go to today where you go downtown and 381 00:25:46,370 --> 00:25:48,250 Speaker 3: it's thirty forty fifty percent parking. 382 00:25:48,730 --> 00:25:51,850 Speaker 1: But a town which is thirty forty fifty percent parking 383 00:25:52,210 --> 00:25:56,330 Speaker 1: is obnoxious in all kinds of ways, the environmental impact 384 00:25:56,370 --> 00:25:59,890 Speaker 1: to the lack of storm drainage. It's horrible for pedestrians 385 00:25:59,930 --> 00:26:02,450 Speaker 1: to walk around a city where there's so much parking 386 00:26:02,450 --> 00:26:04,930 Speaker 1: because everything is so far apart. You've got your empire 387 00:26:04,970 --> 00:26:07,050 Speaker 1: state building and it's serted by twelve blocks of parking, 388 00:26:07,130 --> 00:26:09,410 Speaker 1: or at least it would be. You also have situation 389 00:26:09,450 --> 00:26:14,130 Speaker 1: where it's just completely impossible to build affordable homes because 390 00:26:14,130 --> 00:26:16,690 Speaker 1: every time you want to build an apartment block, there's 391 00:26:16,730 --> 00:26:21,890 Speaker 1: just this colossally expensive parking requirement. The rules deliver the parking, 392 00:26:21,930 --> 00:26:24,370 Speaker 1: but they don't deliver liverable, walkable cities. 393 00:26:25,010 --> 00:26:28,090 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think the attitude over the last ten 394 00:26:28,170 --> 00:26:30,970 Speaker 3: twenty years in American cities has very much been to 395 00:26:31,050 --> 00:26:33,490 Speaker 3: look at these rules and to look at this transition 396 00:26:33,530 --> 00:26:36,010 Speaker 3: that took place in the nineteen fifties and sixties and 397 00:26:36,050 --> 00:26:38,970 Speaker 3: say we got it wrong. And that's a big step 398 00:26:39,050 --> 00:26:43,410 Speaker 3: because for many years, the conventional wisdom was if you 399 00:26:43,490 --> 00:26:47,250 Speaker 3: provide more parking, there will be less traffic, and in 400 00:26:47,290 --> 00:26:49,850 Speaker 3: fact it came to be that it was mostly the opposite. 401 00:26:49,890 --> 00:26:52,650 Speaker 3: The more parking you provide, the more people will drive, 402 00:26:53,010 --> 00:26:55,850 Speaker 3: and the more parking you'll need because the urban environment 403 00:26:55,890 --> 00:26:59,090 Speaker 3: you create is so hostile to anybody who's not in 404 00:26:59,130 --> 00:27:02,250 Speaker 3: a car. Over the last ten to fifteen years, that 405 00:27:02,370 --> 00:27:03,090 Speaker 3: has changed. 406 00:27:03,330 --> 00:27:04,210 Speaker 2: We now have. 407 00:27:04,490 --> 00:27:07,530 Speaker 3: Dozens, if not hundreds of cities that have decided to 408 00:27:07,610 --> 00:27:12,250 Speaker 3: repeal these laws and to let builders, architects, developers, homeowners, etc. 409 00:27:12,810 --> 00:27:16,530 Speaker 3: Decide for themselves how much parking needs to accompany every 410 00:27:16,570 --> 00:27:19,650 Speaker 3: single apartment building, every single store, etc. And so you're 411 00:27:19,730 --> 00:27:23,650 Speaker 3: beginning to see a revival of those traditional urban forms 412 00:27:23,890 --> 00:27:26,210 Speaker 3: that were jettisoned over the course of the twentieth century. 413 00:27:26,290 --> 00:27:29,250 Speaker 3: But it's also true, of course, that parking doesn't exist 414 00:27:29,290 --> 00:27:33,850 Speaker 3: in a vacuum. People say, well, nobody rides the bus 415 00:27:33,930 --> 00:27:35,890 Speaker 3: or the street car or the train compared to how 416 00:27:35,930 --> 00:27:38,610 Speaker 3: many people drive, So we can't make it harder to 417 00:27:38,650 --> 00:27:41,170 Speaker 3: find parking because it is true in the United States 418 00:27:41,370 --> 00:27:44,410 Speaker 3: that for most people, most of the time, we do 419 00:27:44,450 --> 00:27:46,370 Speaker 3: not have a choice about whether we want to use 420 00:27:46,410 --> 00:27:48,970 Speaker 3: a car to get someplace, and so in that sense, 421 00:27:49,330 --> 00:27:53,690 Speaker 3: parking is equivalent to access. And it's not really our 422 00:27:53,770 --> 00:27:56,330 Speaker 3: fault that we get so up in arms every time 423 00:27:56,370 --> 00:27:59,290 Speaker 3: our parking is challenged, and we fight with our neighbors, 424 00:27:59,330 --> 00:28:00,890 Speaker 3: and we fight with the people trying to take our 425 00:28:00,930 --> 00:28:02,090 Speaker 3: parking spot and so on. 426 00:28:02,170 --> 00:28:03,570 Speaker 2: So that is the real issue. 427 00:28:04,050 --> 00:28:06,370 Speaker 1: One of the points that you make in the book 428 00:28:06,570 --> 00:28:09,290 Speaker 1: is that, as you say, parking is access, but that 429 00:28:09,410 --> 00:28:13,170 Speaker 1: is about the superficial kind of access, and it papers 430 00:28:13,210 --> 00:28:15,370 Speaker 1: over deeper inequalities. 431 00:28:16,370 --> 00:28:20,930 Speaker 3: I think most fundamentally, the focus on free and easy 432 00:28:20,970 --> 00:28:26,130 Speaker 3: parking as a precondition of every landscape precludes us from 433 00:28:26,570 --> 00:28:30,450 Speaker 3: building housing right. Both because the requirement to provide parking 434 00:28:30,730 --> 00:28:33,730 Speaker 3: brings up the cost of new housing and reduces its quantity, 435 00:28:33,930 --> 00:28:36,450 Speaker 3: but also because in a society where everyone is so 436 00:28:36,570 --> 00:28:40,410 Speaker 3: focused on having a parking space, neighbors often reject to 437 00:28:40,490 --> 00:28:43,810 Speaker 3: the concept of new people entering the city based on 438 00:28:43,930 --> 00:28:47,450 Speaker 3: their challenge to the parking status quo. This idea that 439 00:28:47,490 --> 00:28:49,450 Speaker 3: new neighbors are going to come and take away your 440 00:28:49,490 --> 00:28:51,650 Speaker 3: parking spot. And this is the reason that we should 441 00:28:51,650 --> 00:28:55,730 Speaker 3: oppose a new apartment building here, a new affordable complex there, 442 00:28:56,010 --> 00:28:57,570 Speaker 3: just straight off between parking and housing. 443 00:28:57,810 --> 00:28:58,690 Speaker 2: I saw firsthand. 444 00:28:58,890 --> 00:29:01,370 Speaker 3: I was in Austin, Texas, and I visited a housing 445 00:29:01,410 --> 00:29:05,170 Speaker 3: complex for the formerly homeless. This place has been constructed 446 00:29:05,210 --> 00:29:09,370 Speaker 3: according to the cities then parking minimums, with a giant 447 00:29:09,570 --> 00:29:13,010 Speaker 3: to story garage a top which were perched a couple 448 00:29:13,050 --> 00:29:16,410 Speaker 3: dozen new apartment units. Now the garage was almost almost empty. 449 00:29:16,530 --> 00:29:18,810 Speaker 3: Of course, because the people who had moved into this 450 00:29:18,930 --> 00:29:22,570 Speaker 3: complex were homeless, they were not statistically very likely to 451 00:29:22,610 --> 00:29:25,250 Speaker 3: own cars and drive cars every day, and yet the 452 00:29:25,290 --> 00:29:28,370 Speaker 3: building had been forced to dedicate half its square footage. 453 00:29:28,490 --> 00:29:30,890 Speaker 3: And god knows how much money and construction costs to 454 00:29:30,970 --> 00:29:34,170 Speaker 3: building this garage. And so yes, they had provided free 455 00:29:34,210 --> 00:29:36,770 Speaker 3: parking and all the access that comes with that, but 456 00:29:37,090 --> 00:29:40,290 Speaker 3: at the expense of creating new homes for people who 457 00:29:40,330 --> 00:29:41,330 Speaker 3: are living on the streets. 458 00:29:43,450 --> 00:29:45,530 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. And when we return, 459 00:29:45,810 --> 00:29:49,210 Speaker 1: we'll be diving back. Should that be driving back into 460 00:29:49,210 --> 00:30:02,730 Speaker 1: the Chicago parking meters fiasco. We're back. This is cautionary tales. 461 00:30:02,730 --> 00:30:05,650 Speaker 1: And I've been talking to Henry Grebau, the author of 462 00:30:05,930 --> 00:30:10,370 Speaker 1: Paved Paradise. Henry, surely the city of Shicquo wasn't expecting 463 00:30:10,370 --> 00:30:13,490 Speaker 1: a free lunch from Morgan Stanley, So what did they expect? 464 00:30:13,530 --> 00:30:14,330 Speaker 1: What were they thinking? 465 00:30:14,930 --> 00:30:17,570 Speaker 3: I do think they thought they had found themselves a 466 00:30:17,610 --> 00:30:21,130 Speaker 3: pretty good deal, especially considering the moment in which they 467 00:30:21,130 --> 00:30:25,290 Speaker 3: were making this deal. Right, property tax revenues are expected 468 00:30:25,330 --> 00:30:28,410 Speaker 3: to shore up Chicago's budget as the recession takes effect, 469 00:30:28,530 --> 00:30:31,490 Speaker 3: and they saw in this deal an opportunity to put 470 00:30:31,530 --> 00:30:34,210 Speaker 3: a bunch of money into city coffers, following a model 471 00:30:34,250 --> 00:30:36,690 Speaker 3: that had been pretty well established in the city at 472 00:30:36,730 --> 00:30:40,810 Speaker 3: this time and not always had these deals led to regrets, right. 473 00:30:40,850 --> 00:30:43,810 Speaker 3: I think selling off, for example, the city on parking 474 00:30:43,850 --> 00:30:46,730 Speaker 3: garage is regarded now in an era of remote work, 475 00:30:46,930 --> 00:30:48,250 Speaker 3: as not a terrible decision. 476 00:30:48,370 --> 00:30:50,330 Speaker 1: I mean, I've told a number of people about this story, 477 00:30:50,330 --> 00:30:53,170 Speaker 1: which is incredible, and the reaction very often is it 478 00:30:53,650 --> 00:30:56,210 Speaker 1: must have been corruption. They can't have been that stupid. 479 00:30:56,210 --> 00:30:58,090 Speaker 1: But what I'm hearing is maybe they were that stupid. 480 00:30:58,610 --> 00:31:00,010 Speaker 2: I think they were. I think they were. 481 00:31:00,690 --> 00:31:05,970 Speaker 3: Moreover, it illustrates the process of doing business in Chicago politics, 482 00:31:06,050 --> 00:31:10,010 Speaker 3: where it's not corruption itself, but it's this disdained for 483 00:31:10,090 --> 00:31:14,450 Speaker 3: the public process, this lack of review, this sense of 484 00:31:14,850 --> 00:31:19,010 Speaker 3: self confidence that the mayor and his advisors and his 485 00:31:19,650 --> 00:31:22,890 Speaker 3: friends and associates in the business community know what's right 486 00:31:22,970 --> 00:31:26,730 Speaker 3: for the city, and that to question them is somehow 487 00:31:26,930 --> 00:31:29,970 Speaker 3: not conducive to city interest. One of the things that 488 00:31:30,010 --> 00:31:33,650 Speaker 3: this deal underlines for me is that this is one 489 00:31:33,690 --> 00:31:37,090 Speaker 3: way of managing city streets, and the way that Morgan 490 00:31:37,170 --> 00:31:41,130 Speaker 3: Stanley or I should say CPMLLC now is managing these 491 00:31:41,250 --> 00:31:44,490 Speaker 3: streets is to maximize revenue. And on a lot of 492 00:31:44,490 --> 00:31:47,450 Speaker 3: these blocks in Chicago, the parking is actually so expensive 493 00:31:47,850 --> 00:31:50,050 Speaker 3: that there's a lot of empty spaces. That's one problem 494 00:31:50,090 --> 00:31:52,330 Speaker 3: that this is not very well managed. And then the 495 00:31:52,370 --> 00:31:55,290 Speaker 3: other one is that, of course it is really a 496 00:31:55,330 --> 00:31:58,370 Speaker 3: catastrophe for the city of Chicago that all this money 497 00:31:58,410 --> 00:32:00,810 Speaker 3: that people are putting into these parking meters is not 498 00:32:00,930 --> 00:32:05,130 Speaker 3: going into public services, street trees and park benches and 499 00:32:05,290 --> 00:32:07,890 Speaker 3: cityscape improvements, drainage. 500 00:32:07,450 --> 00:32:08,810 Speaker 2: All that stuff in the neighborhood. 501 00:32:08,850 --> 00:32:10,930 Speaker 3: That makes you feel like when you put that money 502 00:32:10,930 --> 00:32:13,650 Speaker 3: in the meter, that money is going to something that 503 00:32:13,690 --> 00:32:16,650 Speaker 3: you value. And that's an important political component of making 504 00:32:16,650 --> 00:32:19,570 Speaker 3: people happy with these changes. And in Chicago to this day, 505 00:32:19,810 --> 00:32:21,930 Speaker 3: people are very unhappy with this change. And I think 506 00:32:21,970 --> 00:32:22,810 Speaker 3: that's one reason. 507 00:32:22,610 --> 00:32:27,010 Speaker 1: Why I always promise our listeners that our cautionary tales 508 00:32:27,090 --> 00:32:29,850 Speaker 1: will teach them something. There'll be a lesson to learn. 509 00:32:30,450 --> 00:32:32,970 Speaker 1: What's the lesson you draw from this one? 510 00:32:33,170 --> 00:32:36,690 Speaker 3: The lesson from the Chicago parking meter deal, I would argue, 511 00:32:36,730 --> 00:32:40,650 Speaker 3: is not in fact that cities should never think about 512 00:32:40,730 --> 00:32:43,970 Speaker 3: privatizing public services. I think there is a time and 513 00:32:44,050 --> 00:32:47,010 Speaker 3: a place for that. But the mistake of the Chicago 514 00:32:47,090 --> 00:32:50,610 Speaker 3: parking meter deal is much more specific. It's that if 515 00:32:50,650 --> 00:32:55,090 Speaker 3: you're signing a novel privatization bid for an asset that 516 00:32:55,130 --> 00:32:59,290 Speaker 3: has never before been privatized by any American city. You 517 00:32:59,410 --> 00:33:02,090 Speaker 3: need to spend more than twenty four hours reading the 518 00:33:02,090 --> 00:33:06,730 Speaker 3: four hundred pitch contract, and perhaps even you should commission 519 00:33:07,050 --> 00:33:10,730 Speaker 3: an independent consultant to review this deal of public hearing 520 00:33:10,810 --> 00:33:13,370 Speaker 3: in which experts testify in front of the city council 521 00:33:13,730 --> 00:33:15,730 Speaker 3: and so on. So it really is a case of 522 00:33:15,810 --> 00:33:20,050 Speaker 3: not really thinking through the future consequences. And Chicago did 523 00:33:20,090 --> 00:33:23,610 Speaker 3: what every other city has done, really, which is to 524 00:33:23,690 --> 00:33:27,330 Speaker 3: not seriously think about the value of parking. That is 525 00:33:27,370 --> 00:33:30,650 Speaker 3: the real cautionary tale here. If you don't think at 526 00:33:30,690 --> 00:33:33,930 Speaker 3: least a little about what all this parking might be worth, 527 00:33:34,490 --> 00:33:36,290 Speaker 3: you wind up making big mistakes like this. 528 00:33:37,090 --> 00:33:41,530 Speaker 1: We've been talking about cars, and of course the auto industry. 529 00:33:41,570 --> 00:33:45,530 Speaker 1: The experience of driving cars is being transformed by the 530 00:33:45,570 --> 00:33:49,570 Speaker 1: appearance of electric vehicles, which have different requirements I guess 531 00:33:49,690 --> 00:33:53,170 Speaker 1: to gasoline vehicles. So how are electric vehicles going to 532 00:33:53,250 --> 00:33:55,770 Speaker 1: change the parking landscape and change the issues we've been 533 00:33:55,810 --> 00:33:56,530 Speaker 1: talking about. 534 00:33:56,730 --> 00:33:59,530 Speaker 3: Electric vehicles are going to have a massive effect on 535 00:33:59,570 --> 00:34:02,090 Speaker 3: the way we think about parking. The parking space is 536 00:34:02,130 --> 00:34:04,890 Speaker 3: not just the place you store your car, but it's 537 00:34:04,890 --> 00:34:07,650 Speaker 3: also the place you fuel your car. We're talking about 538 00:34:07,850 --> 00:34:12,450 Speaker 3: electrifying and decarbonizing, at least in America. What is the 539 00:34:12,650 --> 00:34:16,210 Speaker 3: largest single source of greenhouse gas emissions the transportation sector. 540 00:34:16,490 --> 00:34:18,610 Speaker 2: So this is a vitally important. 541 00:34:18,130 --> 00:34:21,010 Speaker 3: Decision that households are making to opfer an electric vehicle, 542 00:34:21,410 --> 00:34:24,730 Speaker 3: and it is contingent on whether they have a place 543 00:34:24,730 --> 00:34:27,530 Speaker 3: to charge that vehicle at home. Now, two in three 544 00:34:27,570 --> 00:34:31,090 Speaker 3: American households do have a private garage where they can 545 00:34:31,530 --> 00:34:34,290 Speaker 3: more or less simply plug that vehicle into the wall, 546 00:34:34,610 --> 00:34:38,050 Speaker 3: but one in three American households don't. That's tens of 547 00:34:38,130 --> 00:34:41,330 Speaker 3: millions of people who are not going to be able 548 00:34:41,370 --> 00:34:44,010 Speaker 3: to make this transition to electric vehicles unless they can 549 00:34:44,050 --> 00:34:46,090 Speaker 3: find a place to charge them. Now, some of them 550 00:34:46,130 --> 00:34:48,730 Speaker 3: live in multi family buildings that need to be adapted 551 00:34:48,770 --> 00:34:49,850 Speaker 3: for electric charging. 552 00:34:50,250 --> 00:34:50,810 Speaker 2: But I think the. 553 00:34:50,770 --> 00:34:53,570 Speaker 3: More challenging question is what we're going to do about 554 00:34:53,570 --> 00:34:57,290 Speaker 3: street parking, Because if all those street parking spaces are 555 00:34:57,330 --> 00:35:00,170 Speaker 3: supposed to be available to people with electric vehicles where 556 00:35:00,210 --> 00:35:02,970 Speaker 3: they can charge their cars right where they're parked, that's 557 00:35:03,010 --> 00:35:08,330 Speaker 3: going to require either an infrastructural investment in electric chargers 558 00:35:08,370 --> 00:35:12,530 Speaker 3: that is beyond our wildest imaginations, or it's going to 559 00:35:12,570 --> 00:35:16,370 Speaker 3: require a new way of thinking about parking in which 560 00:35:16,410 --> 00:35:19,610 Speaker 3: people are more cooperative and they don't simply think of 561 00:35:19,610 --> 00:35:21,210 Speaker 3: a parking spot as a place to leave their car 562 00:35:21,250 --> 00:35:23,370 Speaker 3: for days at a time until they need it next, 563 00:35:23,770 --> 00:35:25,450 Speaker 3: but they begin to think of parking as a more 564 00:35:25,490 --> 00:35:28,450 Speaker 3: fluid and cooperative system in which people move in and 565 00:35:28,490 --> 00:35:31,890 Speaker 3: out of a select number of spaces that have become electrified. 566 00:35:32,290 --> 00:35:34,130 Speaker 3: The stakes of this are really high, right because if 567 00:35:34,130 --> 00:35:36,410 Speaker 3: we don't figure this out, we don't figure out a 568 00:35:36,410 --> 00:35:38,650 Speaker 3: way to let all these households to park the cars 569 00:35:38,690 --> 00:35:40,810 Speaker 3: on the street have a way to charge them, then 570 00:35:40,970 --> 00:35:44,250 Speaker 3: our densest population areas are going to be left out 571 00:35:44,290 --> 00:35:47,490 Speaker 3: of the electric vehicle transition and are going to be 572 00:35:47,610 --> 00:35:51,530 Speaker 3: left suffering from the consequences of the air pollution associated 573 00:35:51,570 --> 00:35:54,970 Speaker 3: with gas powered cars for decades longer than people who 574 00:35:55,010 --> 00:35:56,850 Speaker 3: live in the suburbs and have home garages. 575 00:35:57,450 --> 00:36:00,290 Speaker 1: Henry, before we began the interview, you mentioned that you're 576 00:36:00,290 --> 00:36:03,850 Speaker 1: about to move from Paris to Boston. Is that going 577 00:36:03,890 --> 00:36:06,490 Speaker 1: to raise any new parking headaches for you? 578 00:36:07,810 --> 00:36:10,970 Speaker 3: It's a funny question. It's going to raise an immediate 579 00:36:11,050 --> 00:36:14,890 Speaker 3: parking headache for me. I have long been as a 580 00:36:14,930 --> 00:36:20,050 Speaker 3: car free resident of Paris, extolling the city's decisions around 581 00:36:20,330 --> 00:36:24,450 Speaker 3: reducing the availability of parking and building green spaces and 582 00:36:24,490 --> 00:36:26,890 Speaker 3: bus lanes and bike lanes and all that stuff which 583 00:36:26,930 --> 00:36:30,170 Speaker 3: I use on a daily basis and very much appreciate. 584 00:36:30,730 --> 00:36:33,170 Speaker 3: And now I have to rent a giant moving truck 585 00:36:33,490 --> 00:36:36,810 Speaker 3: and drive it around the city. It is always an 586 00:36:36,850 --> 00:36:39,050 Speaker 3: adventure to try and find a parking spot here. But 587 00:36:39,090 --> 00:36:40,930 Speaker 3: then the other side of it is that I am 588 00:36:40,970 --> 00:36:43,610 Speaker 3: excited in a perverse way to go back to the 589 00:36:43,730 --> 00:36:47,250 Speaker 3: United States and once again experience the feeling of losing 590 00:36:47,290 --> 00:36:50,250 Speaker 3: your car in a giant supermarket parking lot. 591 00:36:51,210 --> 00:36:52,770 Speaker 1: Henry Grabar, thank you very. 592 00:36:52,650 --> 00:36:54,170 Speaker 2: Much, thanks for having me. 593 00:36:55,490 --> 00:36:59,210 Speaker 1: Henry Grabar is the author of Paved Paradise, which is 594 00:36:59,250 --> 00:37:02,970 Speaker 1: available now in the US and Canada from all good booksellers. 595 00:37:03,250 --> 00:37:06,090 Speaker 1: This episode of caution Retales was based with permission, on 596 00:37:06,250 --> 00:37:08,730 Speaker 1: a chapter of that book, and for a fullest of 597 00:37:08,810 --> 00:37:11,610 Speaker 1: us so says, as always, please see the show notes 598 00:37:11,730 --> 00:37:25,410 Speaker 1: at Timharford dot com. The Cautionary Tales is written by 599 00:37:25,450 --> 00:37:29,330 Speaker 1: me Tim Harford with Andrew Wright. It's produced by Alice 600 00:37:29,330 --> 00:37:33,250 Speaker 1: Fines with support from Edith Ruslow. The sound design and 601 00:37:33,290 --> 00:37:37,690 Speaker 1: original music is the work of Pascal Wise. Sarah Nix 602 00:37:38,010 --> 00:37:41,370 Speaker 1: edited the scripts. It features the voice talents of Ben Crowe, 603 00:37:41,690 --> 00:37:46,370 Speaker 1: Melanie Guttridge, Jemma Saunders and rufus Wright. The show wouldn't 604 00:37:46,370 --> 00:37:50,250 Speaker 1: have been possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg, Ryan Dilly, 605 00:37:50,570 --> 00:37:55,450 Speaker 1: Greta Cohne, let Al Millard, John Schnaz, Carlie mcgliori and 606 00:37:55,770 --> 00:37:59,850 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler. Cautionary Tales is a production of Pushkin Industries. 607 00:38:00,050 --> 00:38:03,810 Speaker 1: It was recorded in Wardall Studios in London by Tom Berry. 608 00:38:04,050 --> 00:38:06,890 Speaker 1: If you like the show, please remember to share, rate 609 00:38:07,010 --> 00:38:09,690 Speaker 1: and review go on you know it helps us and 610 00:38:09,730 --> 00:38:12,530 Speaker 1: if you want to hear the show ad free, sign 611 00:38:12,650 --> 00:38:15,570 Speaker 1: up for Pushkin Plus on the show page in Apple 612 00:38:15,610 --> 00:38:19,730 Speaker 1: Podcasts or at pushkin dot Fm, slash plus