Speaker 1: Pushkin when they had offered me the bulletproof vest I
Speaker 1: think that scared me more than anything else. Dead this
Speaker 1: idea I have to wear a bulletproof vests. My god,
Speaker 1: what's going on here? That's not the tall hassee I know.
Speaker 2: Hey, Fiasco listeners, it's Leon Napok. This is the third
Speaker 2: and a series of bonus episodes featuring standout interviews from
Speaker 2: our season, Bush v. Gore. We're sharing these extras for
Speaker 2: anyone who wants to go deeper into the story of
Speaker 2: the two thousand election and to hear more from the
Speaker 2: central players we spoke to over the course of our
Speaker 2: reporting process. We spent a lot of time this season
Speaker 2: talking to people who live and breathe politics, strategists, advisors, journalists,
Speaker 2: and lawyers. Lots and lots of lawyers. But some of
Speaker 2: the people and institutions that got caught up in the
Speaker 2: Florida recount were not partisan or political at all. In fact,
Speaker 2: they were supposed to be anything But today I wanted
Speaker 2: to share a conversation I had with one such person.
Speaker 1: One of the funny aspects of being the spokesman for
Speaker 1: any institution is generally, if someone is getting credit for something,
Speaker 1: it's not me. It's going to be one of my bosses.
Speaker 2: This is Craig Waters, the former Public Information Officer of
Speaker 2: the Florida Supreme Court, a role he held during the
Speaker 2: two thousand recount.
Speaker 1: But if things aren't going well, if things are controversial,
Speaker 1: or if there's trouble, then I'm the one who has
Speaker 1: to go out and do the talking.
Speaker 2: In two thousand, the Florida Supreme Court became the epicenter
Speaker 2: of the political universe, and it made decisions that were
Speaker 2: hugely consequential and controversial. First, the Court prevented Secretary of
Speaker 2: State Catherine Harris from certifying the results at the usual deadline.
Speaker 2: Then it ruled that Harris had to wait until at
Speaker 2: least November twenty sixth to allow counties to finish their recounts.
Speaker 2: And then on December eighth, the Court shocked just about
Speaker 2: everyone by ordering a statewide manual recount.
Speaker 3: The Circuit Court sall order a manual recount of all
Speaker 3: under votes in any Florida county where such a recount
Speaker 3: has not yet occurred. Because time is of the essence,
Speaker 3: the recount shall commence immediately.
Speaker 2: Waters read summaries of each opinion to the press after
Speaker 2: the Court handed them down, and for each decision, conservative
Speaker 2: pundits and Bush campaign staffers were outraged. They attacked the
Speaker 2: Court as a group of partisan democratic judges. It was
Speaker 2: Craig Waters's job to defend the institution that he believed
Speaker 2: in and to keep the public informed. In the process.
Speaker 2: He became a public figure in his own right. When
Speaker 2: I talked to Waters about what this was like. We
Speaker 2: began in the morning after the two thousand election. Waters
Speaker 2: was staying at a hotel in Orlando, and the next
Speaker 2: morning he went downstairs to check the news. He realized
Speaker 2: pretty quickly that the Florida Supreme Court was probably going
Speaker 2: to be involved.
Speaker 1: I went down to the hotel desk and found stacks
Speaker 1: of the Orlando Sentinel newspaper. All of them would contradictory headlines.
Speaker 1: One said Gore had won, one said Bush had won.
Speaker 1: Another one said too close to call. I couldn't figure
Speaker 1: out what was going on.
Speaker 2: These were different editions.
Speaker 1: These were different editions that had come out at different
Speaker 1: times during the evening. So I went back, and I
Speaker 1: didn't want to call the Chief Justice right then. I
Speaker 1: knew that there was a problem, but I called the
Speaker 1: Associated Press here in Tallahassee they tended to stay on
Speaker 1: top of things. The Associated Press was the biggest of
Speaker 1: all the news organizations at that point in time, and
Speaker 1: they filled me in on what had happened overnight in Florida,
Speaker 1: so I felt I had the latest information. And then
Speaker 1: I called the Chief Justice, who was Charlie Wells at
Speaker 1: the time, and his first words to me were, get
Speaker 1: back here as soon as you can.
Speaker 2: Why did he tell you to get back as soon
Speaker 2: as you could.
Speaker 1: Because crowds at that point were already forming between the
Speaker 1: Florida Supreme Court Building and the Capitol. The Florida Supreme
Speaker 1: Court Building is directly across Duval Street from the Capitol Building,
Speaker 1: and there's a large terraced plaza area between the two buildings,
Speaker 1: and there already were news setting up. There were cameras
Speaker 1: all over the place, There were reporters, some sight seers
Speaker 1: were starting to gather as well. There was a general sense,
Speaker 1: I think, until I asked you, that something was going
Speaker 1: on that was going to involve the city in a
Speaker 1: big way.
Speaker 2: So it was clear to you that the Florida Supreme
Speaker 2: Court would have a role to play in resolving it.
Speaker 1: It wasn't clear at that point it seemed likely. When
Speaker 1: I sat down with Chief Justice Wells when I got back,
Speaker 1: he told me that his hope was that it would
Speaker 1: remain in federal courts, and there was some basis for that.
Speaker 1: I mean, federal laws were involved.
Speaker 2: And the Bush lawyers had filed shot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the very first lawsuits were filed in the federal court,
Speaker 1: I think because everybody assumed it was going to be
Speaker 1: a federal matter. The problem with that, after you start
Speaker 1: thinking about it, is that the United States has a
Speaker 1: peculiar way of dealing with elections. Under the federal system
Speaker 1: that was established by the founding fathers, the supervision of elections,
Speaker 1: including national elections, was left to the states themselves, and therefore,
Speaker 1: as a matter of state law, the federal courts, when
Speaker 1: they got these first lawsuits, after they realized you know this,
Speaker 1: that the the issues involved too many state law issues,
Speaker 1: began kicking it out and saying, no, you're going to
Speaker 1: have to go to state court on this, because because
Speaker 1: what you're talking about is state laws, not federal law.
Speaker 2: What was the first occasion you had to get up
Speaker 2: in front of the courthouse and address reporters.
Speaker 1: It started very gradually. One of the things that happened
Speaker 1: very early on was that our marshal locked our doors,
Speaker 1: which infuriated me. We've always been an open courthouse and
Speaker 1: I did not like anything that looked like we, you know,
Speaker 1: that we were closing ourselves off. I went to the
Speaker 1: Chief Justice, to Charlie Wells at the time, and said,
Speaker 1: the Marshal just locked the doors, please reverse him immediately.
Speaker 1: But we did have large crowds that were gathering, and
Speaker 1: there were problems inside the Capitol building with the crowds already,
Speaker 1: you know, people getting into public spaces and causing disruptions.
Speaker 1: And Chief Justice Wells was unwilling to countermand the Marshal,
Speaker 1: so he told me right then and there, and this
Speaker 1: was just after the election had happened, he said, well,
Speaker 1: why don't you just go out and talk to people,
Speaker 1: Go out and talk to the press, talk to whoever
Speaker 1: you know. You're our communications director. So I actually started
Speaker 1: just walking out in front on the front steps in
Speaker 1: a very casual way, you know, like you know, the
Speaker 1: people milling, and I'd go up and start talking with
Speaker 1: some of the ones that I knew. I knew a
Speaker 1: lot of the reporters here in town already, and that's
Speaker 1: really how it started me having very informal conversations with
Speaker 1: people outside the building, and as the event progressed, it
Speaker 1: just became more and more formal, and the crowds grew
Speaker 1: more and more large over time, until we reached the
Speaker 1: point where one day there were so many people and
Speaker 1: so many microphones, somebody said, well, let's get a podium,
Speaker 1: so we can put all the microphones on the podium.
Speaker 1: And then the podium came out, and then the podium
Speaker 1: gradually moved up the steps, and then all of a
Speaker 1: sudden there were lights, and then they were putting a
Speaker 1: microphone on my tie. So it evolved pretty.
Speaker 2: Rapidly, and so it's not like you always read decisions.
Speaker 1: We here at the Florida Supreme Court have actually operated
Speaker 1: under a rule for a very long time that the
Speaker 1: opinions of the court speak for themselves. So generally I
Speaker 1: do not comment on the opinions. I certainly don't try
Speaker 1: to interpret what they mean. You find any two attorneys
Speaker 1: and they'll disagree over what any opinion means, because that's
Speaker 1: what attorneys do. But one of the problems we face
Speaker 1: with Bush v. Gore was that we had huge crowds
Speaker 1: of reporters. At the heights of it, we would have
Speaker 1: two or three hundred reporters standing outside the building waiting
Speaker 1: for a decision from the court. Trying to be fair
Speaker 1: to two or three hundred people is very difficult. If
Speaker 1: you start releasing paper opinions, someone's going to be first
Speaker 1: in line and someone's going to be last in line,
Speaker 1: and of course the people who are last in line
Speaker 1: are going to be very unhappy with that situation. We
Speaker 1: didn't have social media at the time. Today I could
Speaker 1: do the same thing on Twitter, but I didn't have
Speaker 1: Twitter back then. So what happened when we began to
Speaker 1: realize what a big controversy Bush v. Gore was going
Speaker 1: to become. I sat down with the on site assignment
Speaker 1: editors of all the big TV networks that were here
Speaker 1: in Tallahassee. And it was not just the American networks.
Speaker 1: There was also some foreign networks as well, and I
Speaker 1: had a big powwow, and I said, what could we
Speaker 1: do that's going to make this fairer? What's going to
Speaker 1: work best for you? And the consensus that they reached
Speaker 1: was they needed someone to come out and just read
Speaker 1: a brief, bottom line announcement of what each decision meant
Speaker 1: when there was a major decision coming out of the court,
Speaker 1: and they wanted thirty minutes notice so that they would
Speaker 1: have time to break into programming because this was going
Speaker 1: to go live worldwide. And they agreed that I did
Speaker 1: not have to take questions and answers because I think
Speaker 1: the Court would not have agreed to that. The justices
Speaker 1: would not have liked that.
Speaker 2: What did it feel like delivering that summary? It was
Speaker 2: like a you know, as a private citizen terned oracle.
Speaker 1: Well, it was very surreal to see the process. I
Speaker 1: mean because I was really, as I said, I was
Speaker 1: going out and just talking with people casually, like I'm
Speaker 1: talking to you right now. And it had been and
Speaker 1: you know, all of a sudden, when when that order
Speaker 1: came out and there were all these people and all
Speaker 1: these microphones, all of a sudden, that changed. Everything had
Speaker 1: to become more formal, It had to become a much
Speaker 1: more predictable process. The crowds were larger, the security presence
Speaker 1: grew all of a sudden. I had armed police officers
Speaker 1: around me at all the all times. And it was
Speaker 1: very strange to go from this role that I had had,
Speaker 1: which was very much a behind the scenes role to
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I'm the guy out front, and
Speaker 1: it was very strange to watch that process happen, and
Speaker 1: you know, to understand the in real time, the logic
Speaker 1: of why it was happening.
Speaker 2: What do you mean?
Speaker 1: We were very accustomed to openness here, We were very
Speaker 1: accustomed to being welcoming to people. We had a Southern
Speaker 1: y all comattitude. Tallahassee is a very small town. Everybody
Speaker 1: knows everybody. Everybody in the press knows everybody. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know everybody in the press here, and it's been
Speaker 1: that way for a long time. But all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: and we had these newcomers coming in from out of town.
Speaker 1: Initially at the very beginning phases, if I had a
Speaker 1: reporter from New York City saying, well, I don't understand
Speaker 1: how you do these things, I could say, well, there's
Speaker 1: Lucy Morgan from the Saint Pete Times. Go talk to hers.
Speaker 1: She'll explain it to you. But once you start getting
Speaker 1: larger and larger crowds, you can't do that kind of
Speaker 1: thing anymore. So I had to start trying to figure
Speaker 1: out how to get that information across myself, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden. I was having to have meetings with
Speaker 1: the Capitol Police, Florida Highway Patrol, Florida Department of Law Enforcement,
Speaker 1: City of Tallahassee Police Department, Leon County Sheriff's Office. All
Speaker 1: these people were coming in because they had concurrent jurisdiction
Speaker 1: over the areas where the crowds were forming, and so
Speaker 1: they had to be brought in and consulted on everything
Speaker 1: I did. The crowds were later would become enormous.
Speaker 2: More of my conversation with Craig Waters after the break.
Speaker 2: I suppose it was when the Florida Spreme Court ruled
Speaker 2: to extend the certification deadline to the twenty sixth that people,
Speaker 2: perhaps on the Bush side, started to really see the
Speaker 2: institution as being against them. And is that when you
Speaker 2: started getting threats and stuff like that?
Speaker 1: From my perspective, After the issuance of that particular opinion
Speaker 1: on November twenty first, that was when the spin began
Speaker 1: to try to portray the Florida Supreme Court as being
Speaker 1: biased toward the Democratic side. I'm sure that was driven
Speaker 1: by some sense of fear. You don't launch that kind
Speaker 1: of elaborate public relations effort without some reason.
Speaker 2: What do they do exactly.
Speaker 1: That was when I began noticing people going on television
Speaker 1: and really criticizing the Florida Supreme Court. And it was
Speaker 1: very interesting here from the perspective at the Florida Supreme
Speaker 1: Court because directly across the street, on the terraces of
Speaker 1: the Capitol building, that was where the press had pitched
Speaker 1: their tents. Literally, there are all these white tents, and
Speaker 1: every major news organization had a white tint. My office
Speaker 1: actually looks out over that area, and I could see
Speaker 1: all of these very major political figures going from tent
Speaker 1: to tent to tent to tent doing interviews. Then I
Speaker 1: could watch what they were saying on television, and they
Speaker 1: were conducting spin against the Florida Supreme Court. I, of course,
Speaker 1: I was trying to do media interviews as well to
Speaker 1: get as much good information as I could. During that
Speaker 1: particular point in time that I was contacted by a
Speaker 1: television news program that I did not know that much
Speaker 1: about at the time. If I recall correctly, it was
Speaker 1: called Hannity and Colmbs. I actually got into this interview
Speaker 1: and realized that the other person on the other end
Speaker 1: of the interview was someone I also had never heard
Speaker 1: of whose name was Anne Colter, and she launched into
Speaker 1: a tirade against the Florida Supreme Court. I was particularly
Speaker 1: irritated with that because Sean Hannity's people had told me
Speaker 1: they only wanted me to come and talk about procedural matters,
Speaker 1: which is really all I'm qualified to talk about, And
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, there was Anne Culter trying to
Speaker 1: debate me about the merits of Florida Supreme Court opinions.
Speaker 1: So I literally ended up saying over and over and
Speaker 1: over again to Sean Hannity that his people had asked
Speaker 1: me to appear only for procedural issues, and that they
Speaker 1: had apparently brought me under this interview under false pretenses.
Speaker 1: That was probably one of the most vivid examples of
Speaker 1: the spin that I encountered.
Speaker 2: Was it accompanied by personal attacks on you Outside the
Speaker 2: media I managed.
Speaker 1: There were two public email accounts. They were the email
Speaker 1: accounts that were listed on most of the web pages
Speaker 1: of the Florida Supreme Court. So we started getting tens
Speaker 1: of thousands of emails. I couldn't even go through all
Speaker 1: the emails. You know, some of them really were personal attacks,
Speaker 1: and if you read them, you would begin to realize that.
Speaker 1: But these people were extremely confused about the process. Many
Speaker 1: of them thought that I was the one who was
Speaker 1: personally making the decisions that I was announcing on the
Speaker 1: steps of the Florida Supreme Court, and then they would
Speaker 1: treat me accordingly. And some of it was very vulgar
Speaker 1: and some of it was threatening. We handed some of
Speaker 1: it over to law enforcement because of the threatening nature.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to get a pulled in that direction
Speaker 1: at that point in time. I had too many other
Speaker 1: pots on the stove at that point, and so I
Speaker 1: actually stopped even opening those email accounts at some point
Speaker 1: because it just was too much of a distraction.
Speaker 2: And repe were calling your cell phone that you had
Speaker 2: posted online.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the cell phone we ended up just turning off.
Speaker 1: It became useless. I got another cell phone during that
Speaker 1: period of time and we started using that, and my
Speaker 1: office phone number also became unusable. I'd also put that
Speaker 1: on the web page when I first put put that
Speaker 1: out there. We actually tried for a while to bring
Speaker 1: in staff to answer my phone because it was ringing constantly,
Speaker 1: and then we finally just gave up on that and
Speaker 1: just turned We unplugged the phone and let it go
Speaker 1: all good a voicemail. Of course, the voicemail quickly filled up.
Speaker 2: There was such a novel experience. I mean, I know
Speaker 2: this happens all the time now to people who are
Speaker 2: in the middle of the news, but to like just
Speaker 2: be on the receiving end of such easy like the
Speaker 2: the barrier to entry on that communication for the people
Speaker 2: who were contacting you were so low. It had been higher,
Speaker 2: like even quite recently in history.
Speaker 1: It was certainly my first encounter with this sort of
Speaker 1: twenty four hour news phenomenon that can take someone who's
Speaker 1: unknown and turned them into a household name overnight.
Speaker 2: Is what happened to you.
Speaker 1: I mean, it is very much. It was amazing to watch,
Speaker 1: and it wasn't something that I liked. Even for a
Speaker 1: period of about six months after it was over. People
Speaker 1: would stop and point and stare at me in airports.
Speaker 2: Did you feel compelled to undermine the perception that the
Speaker 2: Florida Supreme Court was biased towards gloor in your self presentation,
Speaker 2: especially when you were actually giving those reading those orders
Speaker 2: and reading those decisions.
Speaker 1: The first episode of that where the optics played a
Speaker 1: major role in a decision I made was right before
Speaker 1: I went out to make the December eighth announcement about
Speaker 1: the statewide recount. Enormous crowds had formed outside and they
Speaker 1: were quite boisterous. The police were very concerned. I was
Speaker 1: inside the rotun to the building. The building was closed,
Speaker 1: of course, and there was no one in the rotunda
Speaker 1: area except me in the law enforcement. I was there
Speaker 1: with my prepared statement and was getting ready, and one
Speaker 1: of the law enforcement officers came up and said, we
Speaker 1: have a bulletproof vest for you, and we would really
Speaker 1: like you to wear this because we're concerned. And the
Speaker 1: thing that flashed into my head was something I remembered.
Speaker 1: I've always been something of a student of public relations,
Speaker 1: and I remember back when Hillary Clinton was working for
Speaker 1: her husband, who was president at the time, on his
Speaker 1: healthcare initiative, which had become very controversial, and she was
Speaker 1: going to an airport and she was television cameras were
Speaker 1: following her, and there was an image of her walking
Speaker 1: through this airport wearing a bulletproof veest and she looked
Speaker 1: scared and mistrustful and afraid. That was the image that
Speaker 1: popped into my mind, and that was the image that
Speaker 1: I did not want to project, and thinking of the optics.
Speaker 1: I decided not to wear the bulletproof fest. I just
Speaker 1: thought that was completely the wrong image to project at
Speaker 1: that particular point in time.
Speaker 2: Well would have projected, it.
Speaker 1: Would have projected closure. Fear.
Speaker 2: Mistrust was the reason that they proposed the bulletproof fest.
Speaker 2: That they understood that substance of a decision would be
Speaker 2: so provocative.
Speaker 1: The problem wasn't, really, I think, so much the nature
Speaker 1: of the decision, because the whole thing had been controversial.
Speaker 1: The problem was that the crowds were so large. The
Speaker 1: streets were absolutely jam packed. The area between here and
Speaker 1: the Capitol was full of people. They didn't tell me
Speaker 1: at the time, but thank god they didn't tell me
Speaker 1: they were actually police snipers on the roofs of nearby
Speaker 1: buildings while I was out there for my minute in
Speaker 1: forty five seconds making the announcement. Someone later showed me
Speaker 1: photographs that were taken from the top of the Capitol,
Speaker 1: which is twenty two stories and you can clearly see
Speaker 1: a police sniper laying on his stomach on the roof
Speaker 1: of City Hall, just a block away from where I
Speaker 1: was making the announcement.
Speaker 2: Is it because they were getting threat threats?
Speaker 1: There were threats coming into all different places, the email
Speaker 1: threats that I've already told you about, threats to different offices.
Speaker 1: I know Catherine Harris was getting some serious threats. So
Speaker 1: the general atmosphere among those of us who were the
Speaker 1: public figures in mass you know, was we understood that
Speaker 1: there were crazy people who had become obsessed with this
Speaker 1: particular event.
Speaker 2: You stipulated that you didn't want to project fear or mistrust.
Speaker 2: Did you feel it? Did you feel fear?
Speaker 1: It was a frightening thing in a lot of ways
Speaker 1: going out onto the steps, particularly that evening in December eighth,
Speaker 1: when they had offered me the bulletproof vest. I think
Speaker 1: that scared me more than anything else. Dead this idea
Speaker 1: I have to wear a bulletproof vests. My god, what's
Speaker 1: going on here? That's not the Tallahassee, I know. And
Speaker 1: there was a moment I got out onto the you know,
Speaker 1: to the podium, and I began reading. I had these
Speaker 1: lights shining in my face, so I couldn't see the
Speaker 1: crowds very well because I was blinded, and there was
Speaker 1: a large piece of metallic equipment nearby that fell over.
Speaker 1: And the thought that went through my head at that
Speaker 1: particular point in time is my God, there's the bullet,
Speaker 1: you know. But I just at that point, I just
Speaker 1: kept reading and kept thinking of, well, if I can
Speaker 1: get through this, it's a minute in forty five seconds,
Speaker 1: then I'm okay. It was frightening in a lot of ways,
Speaker 1: but it was something that I also knew that needed
Speaker 1: to be done and had to be done.
Speaker 2: I know that you are not, in fact the embodiment
Speaker 2: of the Florida Stroom Court, and I know that you
Speaker 2: don't identify with it necessarily as if it's views and
Speaker 2: it's rulings are yours. But to the extent that you
Speaker 2: do work here, to the extent that you were the
Speaker 2: voice of it, did you have any feelings in response
Speaker 2: to the US Supreme Court issuing a stay and ending
Speaker 2: the thing that the Florida Supreme Court had ordered to begin?
Speaker 1: When the U. S. Supreme Court issued its stay and
Speaker 1: the arguments that followed, I really got the impression that
Speaker 1: the US Supreme Court had been listening to the press
Speaker 1: too much, and to the spin machine in particular. I knew,
Speaker 1: because of the thirteen years I'd worked here that what
Speaker 1: the Florida Supreme Court was trying to do was apply
Speaker 1: precedent that was more than a century old about how
Speaker 1: you count disputed votes in Florida that got lost when
Speaker 1: the spin machine took over, and instead the spin machine
Speaker 1: was portraying the Florida Supreme Court as this out of control,
Speaker 1: runaway body that was trying to throw the election. And
Speaker 1: I knew that was not true. And I really feel
Speaker 1: like that that impression succeeded to some extent and that
Speaker 1: it did have some influence on the role the U. S.
Speaker 1: Supreme Court later took. I think the US Supreme Court
Speaker 1: to a degree came to believe that the Florida Supreme
Speaker 1: Court was out of control.
Speaker 2: There was even a specific thing I remember reading somewhere
Speaker 2: that like I think it wasist. Rnquist had a problem
Speaker 2: with you being.
Speaker 1: Yes, you did.
Speaker 2: That's been quite personal or not, you know, personal.
Speaker 1: But well, David Kaplan in his book The Accidental President,
Speaker 1: actually wrote about it. Renquist apparently did think it was
Speaker 1: it was an improper thing for a court to have
Speaker 1: someone go out and make announcements about what was happening.
Speaker 1: I don't think that that was the correct view. It
Speaker 1: certainly is not the view that has been endorsed by history.
Speaker 1: Every court in the nation with the possible exception still
Speaker 1: of the US Supreme Court does what the Florida Supreme
Speaker 1: Court was pioneering back then, and the scenes at the
Speaker 1: US Supreme Court where they were handing out paper copies
Speaker 1: and you had reporters crawling over each other trying to
Speaker 1: get copies and then running back to television cameras flipping
Speaker 1: through pages trying to find that one key sentence. It
Speaker 1: was chaos. It created a horrible impression here at the
Speaker 1: Florida Supreme Court. We avoided that by having me go
Speaker 1: out on the steps and read a simple statement that
Speaker 1: was usually no more than two minutes.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this special episode of Fiasco. Fiasco
Speaker 2: Bush v. Gore is produced by Prolog Projects and distributed
Speaker 2: by Pushkin Industries. The show is produced by Madelin Kaplan,
Speaker 2: Lulla Culpa, Andrew Parsons, and me Leon Nathock. We had
Speaker 2: additional editorial support from Lisa Chase and Daniel Riley. Thanks
Speaker 2: for listening. See you next week.