Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. Oh we're talking
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. We're so happy that you're here.
Speaker 2: It's Tuesday, June twenty fourth Wild Night of Headlines everyone,
Speaker 2: so again, settle in. We were just saying, this is
Speaker 2: my favorite two hours of the night, so I'm so
Speaker 2: happy that we're all here together. Listen this Diddy thing.
Speaker 2: Diddy is going to have closing arguments. The prosecution apparently
Speaker 2: may rest as soon as Thursday, so so much on that.
Speaker 2: We have a very special guest who is back. Matthew
Speaker 2: Lee Russell of Inner City Press is back and has
Speaker 2: been in the courthouse and is going to be reporting
Speaker 2: to us live, so we can't wait to have him
Speaker 2: in the next segment. And then also Travis Decker, father
Speaker 2: accused of killing his three daughters. He remains at large
Speaker 2: and his now ex wife and mother of those three
Speaker 2: beautiful children speaks out for the very first time. And
Speaker 2: also we have some new developments in the Brian Coberger
Speaker 2: Idaho college murders. Once again, the defense is stacking the deck,
Speaker 2: and apparently one of his former jailhouse security people guards
Speaker 2: if you will, is apparently going to speak in his favors.
Speaker 2: So first and foremost, let's get to Diddy. But before that,
Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Leidecker, I head of Katie's Studios. We make
Speaker 2: true crime podcasts and documentaries. I know we're probably sick
Speaker 2: of hearing me say that by now, but I get
Speaker 2: to do that every day with Body move in and
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and this incredible team. And we really want
Speaker 2: to hear from you. So eight eight eight three one crime.
Speaker 2: Please join this conversation. Lots of headlines to get through,
Speaker 2: but we really want to hear from you. So, Diddy, Courtney,
Speaker 2: where do we want to begin?
Speaker 3: It will start me go take it away, Body, I'm
Speaker 3: doing it. It's gonna be me.
Speaker 2: It's gonna bead jumping.
Speaker 3: Day twenty nine. Can you believe it's been twenty nine?
Speaker 4: Day twenty nine in the trial against Diddy Comb's there
Speaker 4: was another full day of testimony from summary witness Joseph Circiello.
Speaker 3: He is the special Agent for Homeland Security.
Speaker 4: He's doing the summary witness testimony and just a quick recap.
Speaker 4: A summary witness means somebody that's presenting a lot of
Speaker 4: like super complicated evidence in summary fashion and making it
Speaker 4: like super digestible for the jury to understand. So it's
Speaker 4: a lot of evidence all at once summarized and.
Speaker 2: A lot of texts just like lots of stuff kind
Speaker 2: of summed down.
Speaker 3: I guess it's like.
Speaker 4: A succinct version of a lot of complicated information. Right.
Speaker 4: The defense did not call any additional witnesses. The prosecution
Speaker 4: and the defense rested their case today. Done, it's done.
Speaker 4: Closing arguments are expected to begin Thursday, but we don't
Speaker 4: know for sure, but it's expected to begin Thursday. So
Speaker 4: prosecutors are alleging that from two thousand and four to
Speaker 4: twenty twenty four, so for the past twenty years, did
Speaker 4: he operated a criminal enterprise that involved kidnapping, arson, bribery,
Speaker 4: and sex trafficking. He used his influence in the music
Speaker 4: industry to lure people in and he's facing life in prison.
Speaker 4: He has pled not guilty to all these charges. It's
Speaker 4: I mean, today was a big day. They're done, they're closing,
Speaker 4: They're done.
Speaker 2: I'm so curious what your thoughts are in terms of
Speaker 2: just the optics, you know, is it a big finish?
Speaker 2: The prosecution is resting, their court has gone tomorrow, they're
Speaker 2: off tomorrow or at recess tomorrow. So this was it.
Speaker 2: This was the big, the big crescendo, drop the mic.
Speaker 2: I don't know about a summary witness being emotional enough,
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes, you know, reminding everybody the emotional stakes
Speaker 2: involved can really be moving to a jury. I wonder
Speaker 2: if I feel like they just kind of went out
Speaker 2: with a whimper, yeah, instead of a bang. You know,
Speaker 2: it just was kind of like a whimper.
Speaker 5: Well, I agree with you from the defenses, excuse me
Speaker 5: from the prosecution, but I think the defense actually had
Speaker 5: their way a little bit with this witness. So Boddy,
Speaker 5: if you want to explain a little bit more of
Speaker 5: what went on with Ciriella's testimony, sir, I think he
Speaker 5: defense got their bang.
Speaker 4: Joseph Circiello showed text messages from Jane where she appeared
Speaker 4: to be a willing participant, like in this this whole thing.
Speaker 4: He showed Jane texting a male escort. His name was
Speaker 4: car Burrolay, Am I saying that right? Carbroley Carburlat car Brolet,
Speaker 4: he is a male escort. In December of twenty twenty one,
Speaker 4: he sent this text message, Okay, now listen, don't don't
Speaker 4: get grossed out by me saying this. It's not me
Speaker 4: saying it. Okay, This is Jane to him Tody, no, no, no,
Speaker 4: I'm sorry. Coberlet to Jane. Copy it's a pretty court
Speaker 4: to Jane. The escort to Jane, understood a pretty intense night.
Speaker 4: That was the roughest sex we've ever had. Loved it,
Speaker 4: and Jane responded, definitely one for the books. Damn baby,
Speaker 4: you got me so hot. Listen, I feel really dumb
Speaker 4: saying this. You want you want to come back tonight
Speaker 4: or tomorrow morning. Several days after the six change, Jane
Speaker 4: sent him the escort travel arrangements, so it made it
Speaker 4: appear like Jane was not only a willing participant, but
Speaker 4: like actually engaging and like arranging, you know, for all
Speaker 4: this to happen. The jury also saw text messages in
Speaker 4: which Jane, again she's a pseudonyme, appeared to express her
Speaker 4: love and appreciation for Diddy. I'll never take you for granted,
Speaker 4: one message, said. The defense showed. Text showed texts suggesting
Speaker 4: Ditty and Jane tried to hide their sexual activity from
Speaker 4: the staff, which is going to go to, you know, racketeering.
Speaker 4: The racketeering piece, like, not all the staff was involved.
Speaker 4: You know, they didn't have knowledge of this. It was
Speaker 4: Ditty's private life. You know, it's it's all this. So
Speaker 4: in one two thousand twenty three message from Diddy it said,
Speaker 4: you find place I can't have KK. No, yeah, you
Speaker 4: wasn't arranging all this in this particular case. Again, I'm
Speaker 4: not accusing KK, but in this particular case though, just
Speaker 4: to say one little quick thing here before we move
Speaker 4: on two pieces to this one that might have been
Speaker 4: the case that day that you know, who knows what
Speaker 4: else was happening at Comb's Enterprises where, you know, or
Speaker 4: maybe they had had a combo, maybe she was giving
Speaker 4: some pushback, who knows. But maybe just because that happened
Speaker 4: one time, that doesn't discount the many, the many years
Speaker 4: of this and you know, again, if she knows that
Speaker 4: he really wants Apparently, according to Jane and Cassie's testimony,
Speaker 4: they sometimes use the same escorts because they felt as
Speaker 4: though a that was more intimate, meaning they meaning the
Speaker 4: victims felt that at least they a little bit had
Speaker 4: some familiarity, and sometimes that felt safer and a little
Speaker 4: less scary. So for if you know that you have
Speaker 4: to participate in these things, is it possible just putting
Speaker 4: it out there that maybe Jane or any of the
Speaker 4: victims were engaging with the same people and showing some
Speaker 4: sort of excitement about that because it was more of
Speaker 4: a controlled environment. Again just playing devil's advocate, because again,
Speaker 4: this is complicated emotional stuff, and I fear when we
Speaker 4: whitewash it too quickly with one broad stroke, some of
Speaker 4: the nuance might get lost. And for victims that's really hard.
Speaker 5: It is, and I don't discount any of that. However,
Speaker 5: taking this is actual testimony, and you asked why not
Speaker 5: the big bang? For the defense, what this does prove?
Speaker 5: And even if it was just this one day, the
Speaker 5: defense can say, oh, look, this was Jane, she was
Speaker 5: doing the arrangements. Look her and Ditty. Jane and Ditty
Speaker 5: are saying you know, KK can't know. Therefore there isn't collusion.
Speaker 5: These aren't people who are working for Ditty or orchestrating
Speaker 5: these it's people doing it quote willingly, And to ask
Speaker 5: your question out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, has anybody ever been with somebody an ex or
Speaker 2: something again, just go with me here for one quick
Speaker 2: second where you just knew things were terrible somewhere in
Speaker 2: the back of your head, but you know, somehow you
Speaker 2: still like put that aside. You ignored it because your
Speaker 2: feelings were involved, so you sort of said what you
Speaker 2: maybe shouldn't have said out of contract.
Speaker 3: Make excuses or make your excuses.
Speaker 2: And sometimes you make those excuses and put it in
Speaker 2: a text because you want to, you know, gain back
Speaker 2: some footing or make them feel comfortable, or you know,
Speaker 2: think about it. Some of this stuff was so intimate
Speaker 2: and you know, graphic that I think, according to Jane's testimony,
Speaker 2: at least it felt almost like she was the only
Speaker 2: one that was in this little intimate circle with Diddy
Speaker 2: and his crew, and only she knew him in this way.
Speaker 2: We also know that's not accurate, but you could see
Speaker 2: how that could get real twisted if you're already going
Speaker 2: into this, you know, wide eyed and with rose glasses.
Speaker 2: I'm just playing it out a little bit, but I
Speaker 2: do think one text exchange or even the.
Speaker 4: Jury is going to think like that. That's the important thing, right.
Speaker 5: I Yes, and where I stand is looking at this
Speaker 5: as evidence again taking emotion out of it. Of course,
Speaker 5: what this exchange shows, or what the defense argued that
Speaker 5: this exchange shows, is that Combs's staff was not involved
Speaker 5: in this exchange that is being read on cross examination,
Speaker 5: and they weren't engaged in organizing or funding the encounters,
Speaker 5: which is what you need for the rico charge. We
Speaker 5: are talking about really the ditty trial coming to the
Speaker 5: very end. Give us a call. What are you thinking?
Speaker 5: Eighty eight three to one crime and we have a
Speaker 5: talk back?
Speaker 6: Hi, True Crime tonight, love the show. Did you guys
Speaker 6: see that Diddy personally told the judge today that he
Speaker 6: was doing a great job. That really rubbed me the
Speaker 6: wrong way because it just seemed so arrogant, like he's
Speaker 6: super confident that the judge thought he'd get off, you know,
Speaker 6: just because he's famous. He's sure he's going to get
Speaker 6: away with it. What did you guys think of that?
Speaker 3: I so agree. I could agree with him more.
Speaker 4: It goes a line gross, It goes in line with
Speaker 4: not calling anybody. It's like, look at are we are
Speaker 4: very confident in our case? Like that that the that
Speaker 4: the prosecution has not proved anything.
Speaker 3: I just think it falls in line with the hubris
Speaker 3: of it all. And how about the.
Speaker 2: Fact that these women and victims and assistance and people
Speaker 2: have really put themselves on the line. So whether you
Speaker 2: like it or agree with it, it's not for us
Speaker 2: to decide. It's hard for me not to get emotionally
Speaker 2: attached to some of this stuff. But I feel for Jane.
Speaker 2: I feel for his ex Cassie. Even so for Cassie,
Speaker 2: she had a baby, she was pregnant, you know, God willing,
Speaker 2: she was.
Speaker 3: Ten years of her.
Speaker 2: Life were dedicated to this dope. So here she is
Speaker 2: like sharing these intimate, horrifying details. People are the jury
Speaker 2: is seeing these tapes. How vulnerable and you know, demeaning
Speaker 2: must that feel like in the moment, But you put
Speaker 2: it all there because you want justice well.
Speaker 4: And her domestic abuses out there for the whole entire
Speaker 4: world to caculate on commonly make fun of exactly, you know,
Speaker 4: it's it's I feel bad for Cassie.
Speaker 2: I do too, So I also feel bad for victims
Speaker 2: to be to come forward because why would you you know,
Speaker 2: this is like again, like I thought, it was like
Speaker 2: pretty bold for this group of women to step forward
Speaker 2: to say like, yeah, this is something I was into
Speaker 2: for a minute and judge it if you will, But
Speaker 2: like then it got really crazy and out of hand
Speaker 2: and I wanted out, but I couldn't get out. And
Speaker 2: now I'm being you know, revenge porned, and like, these
Speaker 2: are really intense things.
Speaker 3: So they put.
Speaker 2: Themselves out there. They have to face the person who's
Speaker 2: done this to them. They know they're dangerous. They've seen
Speaker 2: the CNN video of you know, did he beating Cassie
Speaker 2: with one hand while he holds up his towel. They
Speaker 2: know what the repercussions are, and yet still they showed up.
Speaker 2: Cassie Ventura still showed up nine months pregnant. She went
Speaker 2: into labor two days later. And now he might get off.
Speaker 2: Its seeming like I took a vote right now, and
Speaker 2: we did in the studio. It was seeming pretty I
Speaker 2: might be the last man standing here on guilty as charged,
Speaker 2: which is kind of scary for those who stood themselves,
Speaker 2: who put themselves out there, I should say they are
Speaker 2: I'm especially being a community right, yes, like that puts
Speaker 2: a target on your back by very dangerous people that
Speaker 2: we did prove he's dangerous.
Speaker 5: Lots more to discuss Matthew Russell Leaf from Inner City
Speaker 5: Press is joining us. He has the inside scoop from
Speaker 5: inside Diddy's courtroom. Later in the show, it's Pride Month.
Speaker 5: We're going to be highlighting Matthew Shepherd and how much
Speaker 5: he has impacted our society. Give us a call eight
Speaker 5: to eight through on Crime hear true crimes in it.
Speaker 2: Matthew Russell Lee from Inner City. He's here because he's
Speaker 2: been inside the courtroom at the did He trial? So Matthew,
Speaker 2: welcome back.
Speaker 7: Glad to be back, Glad to be back. I'm resurfacing.
Speaker 7: It's coming to a close, so I'm glad to be
Speaker 7: back on before you know, it's decided one way or another.
Speaker 3: It's the home stretch.
Speaker 2: Matthew, what are you thinking before we say anything, what
Speaker 2: is top of mind coming out of today?
Speaker 3: I know it's a big day.
Speaker 2: Tomorrow court is not in session and then Thursday could
Speaker 2: be closing arguments. Did he or maybe he'll be home
Speaker 2: by the weekend.
Speaker 7: Well no, no, I mean I actually think that just
Speaker 7: for in terms of scheduling tomorrow. Sadly, we do have
Speaker 7: to cover something which is the charge conference, the ever
Speaker 7: important charge conference in which they argue what the legal
Speaker 7: instructions are going to be to the jury, and that's
Speaker 7: actually pretty important. I think that's I think sometimes you know,
Speaker 7: people get I get a lot of responses as I'm
Speaker 7: live tweeting this, so people react. I'm not saying emotionally
Speaker 7: is wrong. It's important to like know how you feel
Speaker 7: about the thing, but a lot of it is going
Speaker 7: to turn on the legal instruction given to the jury.
Speaker 7: Plus just so people know. It seems like now that
Speaker 7: the closing statements are going to go for Thursday and
Speaker 7: Friday and the jury was it was said late today
Speaker 7: by Assistant US Attorney Comi that the jury probably won't
Speaker 7: get the case, i e. Start deliberating until Monday, so
Speaker 7: they have three days before the holiday. So that's that's
Speaker 7: where that stands. But if you wanted to the thing,
Speaker 7: believe it or not, like today was really a roller
Speaker 7: coaster because it seemed that the defensive cross examination of
Speaker 7: Special Agent Cercelo was really I thought it was very
Speaker 7: scattershot and it had it had me feeling like, if
Speaker 7: this is all they have their law, they're they're they're done,
Speaker 7: meaning the team Diddy, and it's hit. Didty and his
Speaker 7: nine lawyers or ten depending on how you count them.
Speaker 7: But the rule then there was something called the rule
Speaker 7: twenty nine most yeah, exactly, it's basically it's done. It's
Speaker 7: sort of it's almost every defendant does it. After the
Speaker 7: government rests, you say they didn't prove their case, don't
Speaker 7: even let it go to the jury. And most judges
Speaker 7: are never going to go with that, because you if
Speaker 7: it even got this far, it's obviously a close enough
Speaker 7: question to go to the jury. But they their arguments
Speaker 7: and it's kind of a preview of what their closing
Speaker 7: will be and what their appeal if he's convicted, would be.
Speaker 7: And I have to say, I don't like to say
Speaker 7: I I know how you not just how you all
Speaker 7: feel about it. Having sat here, I think Diddy is
Speaker 7: one of the most weirdest and sickest people that I've
Speaker 7: seen come through the courthouse. And yet and yet they
Speaker 7: do have some arguments, and so I don't know if
Speaker 7: if the arguments will will will we'll have traction with
Speaker 7: the jury. But I could see some of the arguments
Speaker 7: having some traction with an appeals court.
Speaker 2: We just recently were doing a poll even in the
Speaker 2: studio here. So honestly, like if you had the same
Speaker 2: poll yesterday, it might have had a different answer, but
Speaker 2: as of today, most people around in the studio today
Speaker 2: feel like he's going to get off. I'm the only
Speaker 2: one that thinks, for like, say that you did, you did.
Speaker 2: I could see it in your eyes, and I also, yes, I.
Speaker 7: Can tell yeah, I know, I can see that. It's
Speaker 7: it's it's it's difficult, it's sort of I think it's
Speaker 7: I think that I think the jurors would be hard
Speaker 7: pressed not to. It's fun. There's five counts, so I
Speaker 7: don't want to. I don't like predicting things, but I
Speaker 7: would be surprised if you were if he were found
Speaker 7: not guilty on all five. I would. But I definitely
Speaker 7: think that there are problems with the Rico charge. Everyone
Speaker 7: has said it from the beginning. Yeah one, And it's
Speaker 7: not just as simple as saying, you know that Rico
Speaker 7: was passed like for the mafia. Right, So it's trying
Speaker 7: to apply to other things, but it's often applied to
Speaker 7: drug gangs. But usually the enterprise that it's it's directed
Speaker 7: at is a criminal It's a criminal enterprise, meaning like
Speaker 7: the whole goal of the enterprise is crime. That would
Speaker 7: be like the Banano crime family or the Bloods or
Speaker 7: the Crisp or that, you know what I mean. And
Speaker 7: this is like it's a it's a business empire totally
Speaker 7: based around one individual. And then it's it's it's really
Speaker 7: depressing in terms of like being an intern or or
Speaker 7: you know, being a personal assistant, because there's no question
Speaker 7: that these people became now I don't know what percentage,
Speaker 7: but a big part of their job became preparing these
Speaker 7: quote wild king knights and bringing drugs to combs, you know,
Speaker 7: And so it is, it does. There's criminal there's no
Speaker 7: question that employees are the enterprise. We're committing crimes for
Speaker 7: the boss. I don't know. If I don't know if
Speaker 7: that's Rico, then I think like maybe ten percent of
Speaker 7: the business of the United States. I was going to say,
Speaker 7: Cinic could be Rico, right, because all it takes is
Speaker 7: somebody saying like, hey, I'll help you cheat on your taxes, right,
Speaker 7: I mean, these are much worse crimes. But if the
Speaker 7: idea that if any of your employees help you with
Speaker 7: your personal crimes, your business is a Rico enterprise, it's
Speaker 7: it's You're going a long way with that.
Speaker 5: You said you felt that the defenses questioning was scattered.
Speaker 5: Did I hear you correctly?
Speaker 7: I do?
Speaker 8: I do?
Speaker 7: I think, yeah, I think people. I mean, it's difficult
Speaker 7: when the government ended with with this this. You know,
Speaker 7: he's a summary witness. It's not like agents Orcelo knows
Speaker 7: anything about the case. He basically, despite being a highly experienced,
Speaker 7: you know, twenty year veteran, they basically give him underlying
Speaker 7: exhibits and say, you, who are a respected special agent,
Speaker 7: should testify in court that the charts that we show
Speaker 7: to summarize the evidence is actually backed up by the evidence.
Speaker 7: So Comby spent a good day with him. Basically, they
Speaker 7: you know, because so much of this trial, uh, you
Speaker 7: had the live testimony of Cassie, you had the live
Speaker 7: testimony of Mia, the witness known as Mia, and the
Speaker 7: witness known as Jane. But so much of it is
Speaker 7: about text messages that they just had. They've we've had
Speaker 7: probably four days of summary witnesses reading parts of text
Speaker 7: messages back and forth. And the government wants to emphasize,
Speaker 7: you know that the that Jane or Cassie said I
Speaker 7: don't really want to do it, and Combs was like,
Speaker 7: come on, let's do it, and and then and then
Speaker 7: on and I it's totally the right of the defense
Speaker 7: to say, wait a second, aren't there other exhibits in
Speaker 7: which Jane and Cassie say I really want it and
Speaker 7: that and that's really it's kind of and so the
Speaker 7: people that are that are disgusted by Combs are disgusted
Speaker 7: by those questions because they're basically cherry picking things from
Speaker 7: in both cases pretty early on in the relationship in
Speaker 7: which the person was still in love with Combs.
Speaker 4: Yeahline, no, it's not math you I want to hear.
Speaker 4: Did he hus been complaining about the sketch artists? He's
Speaker 4: been saying he's making me look like a Koala bear.
Speaker 4: Do you think that's a fair assessment, like or do
Speaker 4: you think it's optically like what he wants?
Speaker 7: Yeah, exactly. I think I think that was a very
Speaker 7: I think he wanted to highlight the fact that he's
Speaker 7: become this I agree, this kind of like harmless old guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 7: And also, by the way, I know there's there's two
Speaker 7: main sketch artists here on stn Y. And they also
Speaker 7: work sometimes down the street in the State Court and
Speaker 7: they always get complaints's. They're both very good artists. It's
Speaker 7: just that nobody likes how they're portrayed. Nobody, and also
Speaker 7: people view that people view these court sketches depends on
Speaker 7: what their politics are like. During the Trump trial down
Speaker 7: the street, if they made Trump look, you know, somewhat
Speaker 7: normal and even sort of like younger than he really is,
Speaker 7: then then then Trump detractors would say, you're a propaganda hands.
Speaker 7: And of course one time they one of them drew
Speaker 7: I think Tom Brady, and didn't make him look good enough,
Speaker 7: and he got a lot of firestorms, so I think,
Speaker 7: but I think I will say this about Shohn Combs.
Speaker 7: He's definitely it's very limited what you can do as
Speaker 7: a defendant unless you testify, and today he confirmed that
Speaker 7: he was not testifying. But he's done everything that he
Speaker 7: can to impact the trial without testifying. He's nodded at
Speaker 7: the jurors today, the simple, the simple, alu Kish exactly
Speaker 7: the elocution. He didn't get in trouble for this today,
Speaker 7: and I think it was he wasn't in the presence
Speaker 7: of the jury, but it showed the way he's thinking.
Speaker 7: He was asked, you know, mister Combs, you know, how
Speaker 7: are you feeling today by the judge because he has
Speaker 7: to ask him, do you know you know that you
Speaker 7: could testify and you're choosing not to? He said, I'm
Speaker 7: feeling fine, and I just want to tell you, judge,
Speaker 7: you did a great job. And the judge was kind
Speaker 7: of like, there's no money in.
Speaker 3: Your pocket for any time I have anything to do
Speaker 3: with it. I'm not saying that taking any money, but
Speaker 3: like you know.
Speaker 7: Always too smart to be swayed. But yeah, the judge
Speaker 7: is too smart to be swayed. But I think it
Speaker 7: does show. I mean, I think also I believe Combs
Speaker 7: must believe defendants. Do he believes he's going to be exonerated?
Speaker 7: Maybe he does, well, he always has them. He definitely
Speaker 7: doesn't think he's going to lose, because if he really
Speaker 7: thought that on the current record he would lose, he
Speaker 7: would testify I exactly.
Speaker 2: You would be throwing everything at it. Does he know
Speaker 2: something that we don't like? He really does seem like
Speaker 2: he thinks he's going to be home next week, which
Speaker 2: maybe is the case.
Speaker 7: I think he's probably convinced, not that all twelve and
Speaker 7: there's no universe in which all twelve are going to say,
Speaker 7: did he thumbs up? Great job? Bro? But I think
Speaker 7: all he needs is one. The thing is that everyone
Speaker 7: thinks that, and here in SDN Y at least, and
Speaker 7: I think in the federal court system as a whole,
Speaker 7: you know, everyone thinks that. And then the conviction rate
Speaker 7: is like over ninety five percent?
Speaker 3: Is it really? Oh, I do not know that.
Speaker 7: That is the rate. That is the conviction rate. So
Speaker 7: it's it's that's why. Sometimes that doesn't mean that it's automatic.
Speaker 7: And I've seen since I've been covering it here, I've
Speaker 7: seen what often happens is either a mistrial, Like a
Speaker 7: mistrial is a big victory for the defendant, even though
Speaker 7: in this case it wouldn't be that great because I'm
Speaker 7: I'm positive they would put him on trial again. You know,
Speaker 7: oh yeah, absolutely, are they really believe in this? They
Speaker 7: believe in this case. And I think I think in
Speaker 7: a way that the sort of what makes it hard
Speaker 7: to win this case is is that the victory it's
Speaker 7: not the conventional victim, right, it's not. It's not I mean,
Speaker 7: let's put.
Speaker 8: It this way.
Speaker 7: It's not like a runaway was turned into a prostitute
Speaker 7: and then tried to escape and couldn't or that's right,
Speaker 7: that's yeah, Yeah, they I mean, I was going over
Speaker 7: even just before calling in, I was. I live tweeted
Speaker 7: the this real twenty nine motion argument by by Alexander Shapiro,
Speaker 7: who's like going to be the appellate lawyer if he loses,
Speaker 7: and it was very she said, it's it's kind of mean,
Speaker 7: but she said, like, it's not. It's not coercion to
Speaker 7: not be taken on a yacht trip to Turks and Caicos,
Speaker 7: Like that's not what forced. That's not And in a
Speaker 7: way in the in the government's theory, I think what
Speaker 7: they're trying to do in part not in part. I
Speaker 7: think they saw everyone saw the CNN video and they
Speaker 7: said the law has to be able to get to this,
Speaker 7: and California authorities didn't do it. It was beyond the statute
Speaker 7: of limitations. This seems much worse than even domestic violence.
Speaker 7: It's a it's a whole company, you know, used to
Speaker 7: conceal these horrendous sexual, weird, sexual and abusive things, and
Speaker 7: so they wanted to bring the case. But now they're
Speaker 7: in a position where it's this philosophical issue of is
Speaker 7: it coercion to say I'm not going to pay for
Speaker 7: your house unless you do a freak off, which is
Speaker 7: pretty much what Jane was told. That's beyond the there
Speaker 7: was one. There was an evening of violence, and I'm
Speaker 7: not but as she said, they're trying. They're very much
Speaker 7: focused on the economic threat, but at a very high level. Right,
Speaker 7: If somebody is impoverished and you say I'm going to
Speaker 7: cut you off and throw you in the street if
Speaker 7: you don't turn trick, that's coercion. If someone's living in
Speaker 7: a gated community and has is getting five thousand dollars
Speaker 7: a month in child support and you say, if you
Speaker 7: don't perform it, you got to move out of the house,
Speaker 7: is the jury going to find that coercion.
Speaker 5: Listen, we are not done talking about Diddy and Matthew Russell.
Speaker 5: Lee will be back and we have much more coming up.
Speaker 5: Keep it here a true crime Tonight, we have a
Speaker 5: very special guest. Matthew Russell is here also from Inner
Speaker 5: City Press. He's been in the courtroom in the.
Speaker 2: Diddy trial, literally in the beehive, reporting and doing such
Speaker 2: great journalism. Thank you for being with us, Matthew, because
Speaker 2: we have some top line questions and we know we
Speaker 2: have you on borrow time. Here's the biggest question. No,
Speaker 2: we're all divided about it. It's one loaded question. Where
Speaker 2: are the celebrities, where is KK the chief of staff?
Speaker 2: And why is there no defense witnesses being called? Is
Speaker 2: that strategy or just confidence?
Speaker 7: Yeah? No, that is exactly I mean. I think it's weird.
Speaker 7: It's not unheard of for a defense to say to
Speaker 7: basically just put in exhibits as they did today. It's
Speaker 7: not unheard of. They had said, of course, at the
Speaker 7: beginning they might have a two week I remember Mark
Speaker 7: at Nicholer Day to be as long as two weeks,
Speaker 7: and then exactly they had a long list. Then they
Speaker 7: said it would be two weeks. I certainly expected them
Speaker 7: to have a psychological expert. I think they may end
Speaker 7: up regretting not having that, because so much of this
Speaker 7: turn on what the jury, What the jurors are going
Speaker 7: to think about coercion? I think what I think. The
Speaker 7: reason they didn't do it, by the way, is that
Speaker 7: the judge very much limited the government's psychological witnesses. A
Speaker 7: woman called don Hughes, she wanted to talk about coercion
Speaker 7: and was basically not allowed, so she did a much
Speaker 7: shorter There was a there was another case here was
Speaker 7: the Kevin Spacey civil case where he was accused of
Speaker 7: sexual assault on a on a young male actor, and
Speaker 7: in that case, half the case were the dueling experts
Speaker 7: because it was all about knowing and knowing consent. So
Speaker 7: I think judges are different. Basically, Judge sub Romanian decided
Speaker 7: in this case that there were enough facts that to
Speaker 7: not have a turn on whose expert you know, was
Speaker 7: more compelling. So I agree it was surprising, But as
Speaker 7: it got closer, I sort of realized and again, this
Speaker 7: is this they think. These are very experienced defense lawyers.
Speaker 7: Who knows that they all agree internally. I mean in
Speaker 7: terms of the ones who came up from Atlanta, I
Speaker 7: thought did a great job. And I don't know if
Speaker 7: they're having the same input. This is the way they
Speaker 7: decided to do it, I could, you know. I think
Speaker 7: that they think that they they've they've they've laid, if
Speaker 7: not jury winning issues, appellet issues. The thing is that
Speaker 7: appeals take a long time, and and even if you've
Speaker 7: got one charge somehow reversed and sent back for retrial,
Speaker 7: he's still going to be in jail, Like I see,
Speaker 7: no if he's even convicted of one of five charges,
Speaker 7: He's not going to be like released pending sentencing. He's
Speaker 7: in jail, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: So it's just, yeah, well, he's a massive risk.
Speaker 7: I've never seen somebody. I've never seen someone in detention
Speaker 7: being convicted of anything and getting out pending sentencing. If
Speaker 7: he were out, you could argue, let me stay out
Speaker 7: pending my sentencing. And sometimes you can even say let
Speaker 7: me stay out pending appeal. There was a guy here
Speaker 7: in a white collar case that stayed out for four
Speaker 7: years and then got a pardon from President Trump, which
Speaker 7: I know we've talked about last time. I don't want
Speaker 7: to get it. Stir that one up.
Speaker 2: Because it could be an outlier. Is that the ultimate
Speaker 2: hump card?
Speaker 3: Right like that?
Speaker 2: You know, pun intended because listen, is he feeling confident?
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not going to call any witnesses. Why
Speaker 2: open Pandora's box and maybe I'll get a part in.
Speaker 7: Yeah, there was in terms of the celebrities, I do
Speaker 7: the one thing I wanted to point out, I agree
Speaker 7: it wasn't. I think people had this perception there was
Speaker 7: a whole side of Diddy's life, which were these garish
Speaker 7: parties in the Hamptons and like we've heard almost nothing
Speaker 7: about that. I think both sides agreed that that for
Speaker 7: some reason, I mean, I could see why the prosecution
Speaker 7: wouldn't want to go there. I'm surprised that the defense.
Speaker 7: It seems to me they might have wanted to go
Speaker 7: there in the sense of just trying to confuse the
Speaker 7: case and say, you know, he was a very high
Speaker 7: profile person. Look who came to his parties, you know,
Speaker 7: I mean, there were some high elected officials, for example,
Speaker 7: went to these things. I think, as it turns out,
Speaker 7: these devious, not devious, these terribly violent, sick things that
Speaker 7: he did, they were not taking place upstairs in the Hamptons,
Speaker 7: you know. I think it seems like these freak offs
Speaker 7: were very much organized by his staff in Miami, Los
Speaker 7: Angeles and hotels in New York, and they very much
Speaker 7: involved a certain you know, a stable of about six
Speaker 7: male escorts, at least the ones that we've heard about,
Speaker 7: and you know, and Jane and Cassie. The weird thing
Speaker 7: is that there was late in the trial there was
Speaker 7: another name, Chelsea was thrown out there. I'm not trying
Speaker 7: to out anybody that this is the name that was said.
Speaker 7: It turns out that there are other of Combes's girlfriends
Speaker 7: that may have been at least in part brought into
Speaker 7: this world. And it seems in at least one case,
Speaker 7: he was juggling two possible freak outs at the same time,
Speaker 7: sort of like and his staff was saying, like, Okay,
Speaker 7: we have to get one into a different hotel and
Speaker 7: not let one.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't.
Speaker 7: In most of these things. It was like Jane being
Speaker 7: and I don't mean to it's terrible, but you know,
Speaker 7: feeling jealous that he was had public relationships with rapper
Speaker 7: Young Miami in a hotel room. Yeah. But it turns
Speaker 7: out there was also competition, it seems, among freak off
Speaker 7: I think that the government somehow decided to they could
Speaker 7: have gone much bigger with the case, and this is
Speaker 7: the way they chose to do it. If they win,
Speaker 7: then they're the smart ones, you know. And and if
Speaker 7: they don't, then they have only themselves to blame, because
Speaker 7: there there definitely are more victims out there, and in fact,
Speaker 7: there's a dozen civil cases more just here in the
Speaker 7: Southern District of half of them are male of people
Speaker 7: saying parties, yeah, and we're drugged and we're given you know,
Speaker 7: drugs and we're assaulted, you know, violently assaulted and woke up,
Speaker 7: you know, bleeding, And I don't know if if that's
Speaker 7: true or not. And the cases are all at an
Speaker 7: early stage, but I feel like there's a whole other
Speaker 7: part of ditty that's not on trial. In this case,
Speaker 7: they've really sculptured. This is a case about freak offs,
Speaker 7: about about using his business enterprise to to to you know,
Speaker 7: bring about these weird performances that that were terrible and
Speaker 7: that really it's hard to say they were consensual, but
Speaker 7: they're saying that they were, and they have some text
Speaker 7: messages that make them look that way.
Speaker 5: This thing is going to be unfolding for a long
Speaker 5: time after this trial. You're the bad so good Matthew came.
Speaker 7: I mean, it's fun. I like to do it this way.
Speaker 7: I like to like really get like like in terms
Speaker 7: in in actually like live tweeting it. It's made me
Speaker 7: really focus a lot more. I see. I know other
Speaker 7: people that are covering it, and there are times where
Speaker 7: they'll be like, uh, you know, it's really dragging. I'm
Speaker 7: going to step out. And I'm not putting them down.
Speaker 7: I'm saying like I for some reason since I started
Speaker 7: doing it this way. Like if I step out, people
Speaker 7: are like, what's going on? Why? I get pushed back like.
Speaker 3: Well, what you're doing is like.
Speaker 7: Super employed during the defense. You know, it's crazy.
Speaker 4: So many people rely on what you're tweeting, So it's
Speaker 4: super important that you're doing and I'm really glad that
Speaker 4: you're doing it.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I don't do it.
Speaker 1: I don't love that.
Speaker 7: I don't have to do it for every trial, but
Speaker 7: for this, it's so appreciated it. And I did do
Speaker 7: it for Gleaine Maxwell. That's one thing I wanted to
Speaker 7: I wanted to compare it to if you don't mind,
Speaker 7: is that there was a big trial here. It was
Speaker 7: after Epstein, you know, was dead. I'm not I don't
Speaker 7: know how to carry whatever. I won't characterize the event,
Speaker 7: but after he was reported dead, Gallaine Maxwell was put
Speaker 7: on trial. And in a way it was similar in
Speaker 7: this sense that the victims, many of them later went
Speaker 7: on to become models. They weren't. This wasn't like you know,
Speaker 7: uh uh, you know, impoverished immigrants from you know, the
Speaker 7: Baltic States or Southeast Asia being turned into prostitutes. It was,
Speaker 7: but it wasn't it still wasn't this. I think that
Speaker 7: what she was convicted and I think honestly a large
Speaker 7: part of it to the jury was this this evidence
Speaker 7: that he she on behalf of Epstein targeted kind of
Speaker 7: white generally, I have to say, white working class, pretty
Speaker 7: teenage girls in Florida and and and and ruined their lives.
Speaker 7: It felt much more like a victor. It felt because
Speaker 7: of the age and because of the sort of like
Speaker 7: socioeconomic imbalance. It looked a lot more coercive than this
Speaker 7: does now had a lot of money. But yeah, no
Speaker 7: one is saying that Cassie or Jay or Jane were poor, right,
Speaker 7: and I don't think that they Maybe they couldn't, but
Speaker 7: they didn't go the prosecution didn't didn't go into their
Speaker 7: backgrounds to say this is why they were susceptible to this,
Speaker 7: do you see what I mean?
Speaker 2: And what about the fact that they couldn't get out?
Speaker 2: So like another key difference between Epstein. I'm so glad
Speaker 2: we're talking about this, by the way, and Keylane Max
Speaker 2: was my favorite topic. I definitely nineteen more years with you.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 2: The big difference also is the idea that they were
Speaker 2: being videotaped or filmed or recorded nineteen eighty five the
Speaker 2: way I say videotaped, but like the fact that they
Speaker 2: were is video or film of them, and they didn't
Speaker 2: really want that to be exposed to the world, and
Speaker 2: that was being used as revenge porn. Similarly, in Epstein's case,
Speaker 2: you know, allegedly there's you know, people were being recorded
Speaker 2: and maybe that was being used as you know, collateral damage.
Speaker 3: Is that accurate for you?
Speaker 5: I think it's.
Speaker 7: I mean, I think the I think the reason the
Speaker 7: Epstein thing has given rise to probably more conspiracies than
Speaker 7: this case is I don't think he was necessarily filming
Speaker 7: it to blackmail the women as so much. The idea
Speaker 7: is that he was providing a sort of like you know,
Speaker 7: prostitution service to extremely powerful men and has proved right.
Speaker 7: There was a guy that was huge in Barkleys that
Speaker 7: they he's lost his job Jess Staley, all kinds of
Speaker 7: litigation around it, and so the idea and there's you know,
Speaker 7: they always talk about massage. I won't go down this hole,
Speaker 7: but I think that the filming here, he don't I mean,
Speaker 7: I want you to go down. In the sense of
Speaker 7: comb I don't know if Combs was filming in the
Speaker 7: first instance, just to to have have h you know,
Speaker 7: extortion material over the two women. I think they were themselves.
Speaker 7: That's what the defense tried to show. They were filming
Speaker 7: this so that on a you know, on a on
Speaker 7: a rainy night, they could use it to do. They
Speaker 7: had something called when they said movie night. When they
Speaker 7: said when when when the movie night didn't mean like
Speaker 7: watching It's a Wonderful life. They meant watching previous porn
Speaker 7: that they themselves had produced.
Speaker 3: Right, But also but it didn't didn't he say he
Speaker 3: was going to send it to his.
Speaker 7: Mom, her mom, And that's going to be a big
Speaker 7: thing that I'm just saying, there was enough if you
Speaker 7: really followed the thing over the whole four weeks. I'm
Speaker 7: not saying he didn't have in the back of his
Speaker 7: mind when he filmed it. He did. It was coming
Speaker 7: back from from the south of France. They were sitting
Speaker 7: next to each other on the plane and he said,
Speaker 7: I'm going to release this video and destroy your life.
Speaker 7: And then when he thought that Cassie had left him
Speaker 7: for Kid Cuddy, he said, I'm going to I'm going
Speaker 7: to release the tape. There's no question that you used
Speaker 7: it for extortion. So I'm not trying to say that
Speaker 7: that didn't happen. I'm just saying that there's more. I
Speaker 7: guess I'm saying it seems like in the case of Epstein,
Speaker 7: the allegation is that he filmed these things to get
Speaker 7: blackmail material against powerful, poutful Saudi princes, and in that
Speaker 7: Sean Combs was just it's a different era too, right,
Speaker 7: So I don't know how many people film themselves in
Speaker 7: the bedroom, but they seem to like they were just
Speaker 7: using an iPhone. It's much easier to film. You don't
Speaker 7: have to have a surreptitious camera system. They just set
Speaker 7: it up. They were constantly finding there's a There was
Speaker 7: one instance in the trial where one of the staff
Speaker 7: members that testified found an iPad which he thought was
Speaker 7: like music, you know, mus editing software, opened it up
Speaker 7: and found a video of in this fat being with
Speaker 7: another man and Combs watching, and he brought it to
Speaker 7: Combs and said, you know, maybe this is not supposed
Speaker 7: to be out there, And he later got grilled by
Speaker 7: Christina kuram, did you well, how did you find it?
Speaker 7: Have you given it to anyone else? Because Combs didn't
Speaker 7: want these things to go out because he would be
Speaker 7: extorted for money.
Speaker 5: You are the best, Like Stepanie said, we could have
Speaker 5: you for nineteen hours. Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 5: You're so insightful. Everyone. Please follow Matthew on x at
Speaker 5: Inner City Press get all the latest in the trial
Speaker 5: against Sean Diddy Combs. Also his book Did He Do
Speaker 5: It Us Versus Sean Combs available on Amazon. Also his
Speaker 5: book on Galaine Maxwell Maximum Maxwell.
Speaker 3: This is my thing.
Speaker 4: I think the defense, even though they're not bringing on
Speaker 4: any witnesses and one that I think they ended, I
Speaker 4: think they went out with a bang.
Speaker 3: And the reason I think that is.
Speaker 4: Because the text messages from Diddy to Jane when Diddy
Speaker 4: says I don't KK can't know. I think that's super
Speaker 4: powerful because if I'm a juror, right, I'm going to
Speaker 4: be like, KK is very important.
Speaker 3: Why didn't the prosecution bring her on?
Speaker 4: And then I see this text message and I'm going
Speaker 4: to be like, that's why they didn't bring her on
Speaker 4: because Diddy didn't involve KK in this.
Speaker 3: There is no enterprise and that's why I'm hearing.
Speaker 2: So KK is Sean ditty Comb's chief of staff, Christina Korum.
Speaker 2: She's been cited in several of the civil lawsuits and
Speaker 2: has come up several times in testimony during this trial.
Speaker 2: And people have been curious where the big dogs are,
Speaker 2: where the celebrities? Where are the big dogs? KK being
Speaker 2: at the center of that. And what you're referring to
Speaker 2: is this text exchange where it sort of absolves KK
Speaker 2: because he, you know, Diddy himself is saying she shouldn't know.
Speaker 4: She can't know about this, right, So that's basically hiding
Speaker 4: all this nefarious, you know, activity of these freak offs
Speaker 4: and whatnot. So if I'm a juror, I'm going to
Speaker 4: be like, well, that's why the prosecution didn't bring KK
Speaker 4: on because there is no enterprise, and if they brought
Speaker 4: her on, she wouldn't be able to add anything of
Speaker 4: value to the case. Kind of like, as a that's
Speaker 4: what I'm going to be like, Okay, you know, like
Speaker 4: maybe there's something there. Maybe there's no enterprise and there's
Speaker 4: no rico. That's what I'm thinking.
Speaker 3: Courtney Armstrong, what would you like to say, Well, I think.
Speaker 5: The defense didn't you know, didn't bring her on because
Speaker 5: of what could have happened in cross Here's deal. I
Speaker 5: think there's no universe in which KK did not have
Speaker 5: a ton of knowledge. Of course, so I think that
Speaker 5: is as a matter of fact in my mind. But
Speaker 5: to your point, body, what was proven in court was right, Yeah,
Speaker 5: there is no enterprise, keep her out of it. And
Speaker 5: if that is the last thing, then the prosecution did
Speaker 5: the job for the defense.
Speaker 3: One hundred persons.
Speaker 4: That's and listen, I'm not saying that there was there
Speaker 4: wasn't an enterprise. I'm just saying, as a juror member,
Speaker 4: where I'm gettingly.
Speaker 9: Allowed, this is like taking on facts right right, And
Speaker 9: I'm just going to ask, because we have we ever
Speaker 9: sent a text if taken out of context, oh my god,
Speaker 9: out of a several years period, does that count? So
Speaker 9: KK was told to not know about something in this
Speaker 9: one particular text exchange, you know of it required a
Speaker 9: summary witness to summarize all of the texts between KK,
Speaker 9: Christina Korum, and Diddy and his staffers. And we also
Speaker 9: have heard an other testimony that you know, they were
Speaker 9: back and forth the assistance and including with KK kind
Speaker 9: of being like you know what is happening here right now?
Speaker 9: Like there was some knowledge of nefarious behavior. I guess
Speaker 9: the larger question is who was organizing that and who
Speaker 9: was paying for that? And I guess that's what makes
Speaker 9: it an enterprise.
Speaker 3: I'm so confused.
Speaker 2: So listen, I guess there's so much more to unpack here.
Speaker 2: Make sure you stay with us. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2: This is true crime tonight. We're talking true crime all
Speaker 2: the time, obviously, even talking a ton about Diddy. It's
Speaker 2: looking like his defense is ready to not bring any
Speaker 2: defense witnesses to the table and that we're going to
Speaker 2: rest and there may be a verdict as soon as
Speaker 2: Friday or top of next week. So we're in the
Speaker 2: final countdown of that. Also, Travis Decker, the man accused
Speaker 2: of killing his three children, remains at large, and for
Speaker 2: the first time, his wife ex wife is speaking out
Speaker 2: in its heart wrenching We'll get to that very quickly, Courtney.
Speaker 2: You want to take us through a little bit. What's
Speaker 2: happening in this Travis Decker case.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's so much tragedy. So Travis Decker, there has
Speaker 5: been a massive man hunt. He is thought to have
Speaker 5: murdered his three young children, and as Stephanie mentioned, his
Speaker 5: ex wife just and the mother of the children just
Speaker 5: spoke out. This was when she was addressing a crowd
Speaker 5: at their memorial in Wnachi, Washington, and in her discussion,
Speaker 5: she mentioned that her daughter's Petln nine, Evelyn eight, Olivia five,
Speaker 5: that all of them were in therapy. They were learning
Speaker 5: to discuss their feelings openly because their parents were getting
Speaker 5: a divorce. What wonderful parenting on her part, A beautiful
Speaker 5: and Whitney. The mom said, I'm so thankful for that
Speaker 5: time that I had with the girls. I truly hope
Speaker 5: that the legacy of the girl's lives lives on in
Speaker 5: everyone's heart forever. They were incredible, So that's something for
Speaker 5: us to all just ingest for a moment that this
Speaker 5: mother put out there.
Speaker 3: I watched this video and it was so heart wrenching.
Speaker 3: It's too much. It's too heart wrenching. I mean it
Speaker 3: really was. I had to do it in small doses.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is just we all feel for this woman
Speaker 5: and these girls. There's been a little bit of change,
Speaker 5: seems in the feeling of the authorities running the manhunt,
Speaker 5: and someone from the Sheriff's office they said, and I'll
Speaker 5: actually read this because they said it succinctly. At this time,
Speaker 5: there's no certain evidence that Decker remains alive or in
Speaker 5: this area. Yeah, seemingly strong early leads gave way to
Speaker 5: less convincing proofs over the last two weeks of searching.
Speaker 5: And they went on to say that they will continue searching.
Speaker 5: Decker does remain a danger to the public, and they
Speaker 5: mentioned that they will keep on the search for Peitlin, Evelyn,
Speaker 5: and Olivia Decker. But that's a change, guys, that's.
Speaker 2: A big change, even just from this week, because he
Speaker 2: went into the woods, you know, really unprepared. We know
Speaker 2: that he was not he didn't have his medication, and
Speaker 2: you know, there was some question as to whether or
Speaker 2: not he was being aided by locals in the blood.
Speaker 3: There was that blood on the trunk.
Speaker 2: So I wonder why they're making this public state because
Speaker 2: I mean, seriously, if you live in the area, until
Speaker 2: this man is found, it still remains a dangerous situation.
Speaker 2: Either they maybe know a ton of information or or
Speaker 2: maybe they're not showing their hand.
Speaker 3: Maybe.
Speaker 5: I mean, we'll see how it plays out. Unfortunately.
Speaker 2: I can speak for all of us here though, and
Speaker 2: anybody who's you know, joining us tonight, that our hearts
Speaker 2: are deeply with that beautiful poor mother and her kids.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know where you put that, so ye,
Speaker 2: we could all just send some prayers and thoughts.
Speaker 5: Absolutely.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 5: Daniel Park he's the man who was charged with aiding
Speaker 5: the Palm Springs fertility clinic bombing. So he's he's been
Speaker 5: behind bard and bars and he died in federal custody.
Speaker 5: That just happened this morning.
Speaker 4: That's not society guy they said.
Speaker 5: They haven't said, but we know that he Yeah, he
Speaker 5: died in custody and his cause of death has not
Speaker 5: been made clear.
Speaker 4: So I think that's what makes us in fact, next
Speaker 4: time we talked to Joseph Scott Morgan, I want to
Speaker 4: talk to him about that.
Speaker 3: Hmm.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. So that's just something and it evolved me.
Speaker 4: He's a fairly young guy. He's a fairly young guy,
Speaker 4: so I don't it's not like old age or anything, you.
Speaker 3: Know, No, he was.
Speaker 5: He was a young guy. So that's something we'll be
Speaker 5: keeping our eye on and see what goes. Because body,
Speaker 5: I agree with your assessment. The Minnesota shooter, Vance Bolter,
Speaker 5: he is the man who murdered politicians in Minnesota and
Speaker 5: tried to do so for other politicians. So it just
Speaker 5: came out that he had sent we knew that he
Speaker 5: sent texts to his this family group. A text and
Speaker 5: he said that dad went to war last night. I
Speaker 5: don't want to say more because I don't want to
Speaker 5: implicate anybody. Well, the police later found his wife in
Speaker 5: a car with her children, and she was there with
Speaker 5: two handguns, ten thousand dollars in cash, and passports for
Speaker 5: herself and her children.
Speaker 4: There's something going on with this dude. I am sorry.
Speaker 4: I am not a conspiracy person, but there is something up.
Speaker 3: This guy had all this cat He was like cash flush.
Speaker 4: Yes, his house was paid off, he had seven cars,
Speaker 4: he had this other apartment, and he worked on a restaurant.
Speaker 3: Like, none of it is adding up to.
Speaker 2: Me, none of what would that infer to you? That
Speaker 2: he was maybe he's getting paid by somebody talent, and
Speaker 2: that he was making these targets in exchange for financial
Speaker 2: gain to set up his family in a way that
Speaker 2: maybe as a restaurant worker he would not have been able.
Speaker 5: To perhaps, and he was also it seemed like he
Speaker 5: was putting together his career, his jobs because he also
Speaker 5: worked what for a funeral home?
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was transporting I believe for like a funeral home.
Speaker 4: He told his friend that he he was removing eyeballs.
Speaker 5: Remember this, like, yeah, it's something's going to come out,
Speaker 5: because I agree, there's just there's something happening here. And
Speaker 5: then Coburger, which Stephanie you had mentioned, Brian Coberger. He
Speaker 5: is accused of murdering the four Idaho students in college
Speaker 5: and a former jail guard has been called to testify,
Speaker 5: and it's a guy, a correctional officer where Coburger was
Speaker 5: taken after his arrest at his parents' house in Pennsylvania,
Speaker 5: and so he will be testifying for the defense, as
Speaker 5: will a guy named Anthony Soma who went to school
Speaker 5: with him. So we'll see what that brings. But witnesses
Speaker 5: for the defense are coming at us.
Speaker 3: That's very good news. And now we have a talk back.
Speaker 4: Obviously, Diddy was friends with a lot of famous people,
Speaker 4: and a lot of famous people are really quiet right now,
Speaker 4: Well not Kanye, right, Kanye showed up.
Speaker 2: He was pretty quiet, though, he was quiet, but he
Speaker 2: showed up quietly, wearing white. But like other than that,
Speaker 2: he left after ten minutes, so there was really not
Speaker 2: much of a thing to be said.
Speaker 3: But yeah, why is anybody so quiet?
Speaker 4: Well, I wouldn't listen if my if I don't care
Speaker 4: how close I am, but if my friend is, you know,
Speaker 4: getting all these allegations, I don't know that I would,
Speaker 4: you know, optically, for my pr I don't know that
Speaker 4: I would be showing up and giving him my support,
Speaker 4: especially if I have inside knowledge that he might be guilty.
Speaker 2: True, But if you thought, if you had inside knowledge
Speaker 2: that maybe he was guilty, wouldn't you want to speak
Speaker 2: out and support the victims who are nameless?
Speaker 5: That's well, but you know, a guilt by association, you know,
Speaker 5: so they could get their hands dirty, so you know,
Speaker 5: maybe there's moral struggles they're going through of oh, could
Speaker 5: I support this in the same vein on cross examination?
Speaker 5: What might happen one night when I had two drinks
Speaker 5: too many or whatever? Total speculation on my part, But
Speaker 5: you really do open yourself up once you go on
Speaker 5: the stand and.
Speaker 4: You're now you're on the cover of People magazine. You know,
Speaker 4: every text, Stephanie, we're yapping about it forever. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 4: I guess that's maybe Jennifer Lopez, right, she was obviously
Speaker 4: one of Diddy's exes. Maybe she had a different experience
Speaker 4: and can't really relate to some of.
Speaker 3: The testimony that we've heard from other some of the
Speaker 3: other women.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, that's it's entirely possible that he's a
Speaker 4: totally different person now than he was when they were together.
Speaker 5: I mean that's yeah, that's a good point by both
Speaker 5: of you. But that think in your lives how that's happened.
Speaker 2: I bes though on one thing that excuse me, I
Speaker 2: shouldn't have phrased it that way. But you remember did
Speaker 2: he has a little bit of a checkered past. Oh
Speaker 2: remember he went to Howard University and there was this
Speaker 2: stampede thing that happened. I don't know if you guys
Speaker 2: are familiar with this story, but oh yeah, they were
Speaker 2: selling tickets to this big event. He was a college
Speaker 2: student at the time, you know, really you know, excellent university,
Speaker 2: and they had over sold this event. Meaning like I'm
Speaker 2: you know, this is paraphrasing. These are not the exact numbers,
Speaker 2: but say they were able to hold one hundred people
Speaker 2: in a certain auditorium, they oversold it to like five
Speaker 2: hundred people, knowingly that they were way out of their league,
Speaker 2: and then ultimately when that place got packed, there was
Speaker 2: some sort of a stampede. Lives were lost and Diddy
Speaker 2: kind of dipped. The assessment was that he was aware
Speaker 2: that this was going to happen, and that he was
Speaker 2: aware that this was deadly, and that he was aware
Speaker 2: that it wasn't going to affect him and life goes.
Speaker 4: On, and I think he mayor criticized the mayor criticized
Speaker 4: him for allowing like young underlings to like plan and
Speaker 4: take care of all this, but he didn't really face
Speaker 4: any consequences for it, which is interesting because maybe that's
Speaker 4: why they're so confident because that's not the only thing
Speaker 4: that in his past where he kind of got away
Speaker 4: with something.
Speaker 2: Many times, it seems like potentially for decades. You know,
Speaker 2: we know that he's been associated with this. Tupac not
Speaker 2: accused of it, of course, but you know, was maybe
Speaker 2: in the in the conversation at least that's being brought up.
Speaker 2: So you are, I am, oh, yeah, you think he's
Speaker 2: going to be home with just by Saturday. I want
Speaker 2: to go to that trial here we're going to yeah.
Speaker 1: So yeah.
Speaker 2: And in case you're just not familiar with this, we
Speaker 2: kind of talked about it a bit last night. Is
Speaker 2: that Tupac, the you know, acclaimed rapper, was murdered it
Speaker 2: and Poet Love was murdered, and you know, the insinuation
Speaker 2: was this East Coast West Coast Rappers thing and Diddy
Speaker 2: being on the other side of that allegedly that trial's happening,
Speaker 2: and that trial's happening in twenty twenty six, so just
Speaker 2: kind of around the bend, and the accusation is that
Speaker 2: Ditty was somehow involved or had offered money.
Speaker 3: To have that hit done allegedly allegedly allegedly.
Speaker 2: Again, these are just interesting like threads that we're seeing
Speaker 2: either not tying up, which I think is really worth discussing,
Speaker 2: and also some threads that still might So in this
Speaker 2: moment today on Tuesday to twenty fourth, it does not
Speaker 2: appear that any of the big name celebrities that have
Speaker 2: been touted on these lists included by the defense back
Speaker 2: in the day they said.
Speaker 3: Well, we're going to have a hundred witnesses.
Speaker 2: Those witnesses that are famous and associated with this case,
Speaker 2: or at least with Diddy really have not come forward,
Speaker 2: nor have we seen them, so who knows. Obviously Didy
Speaker 2: watch remains, so we'll be following that very very closely.
Speaker 2: But also this killer Dad allegedly accused of killing his wife.
Speaker 2: After many years, this has gone unsolved. It was Mother's Day,
Speaker 2: she was riding her bicycle and then suddenly the bicycle
Speaker 2: is found, but she is not. And now years later,
Speaker 2: after a lot of chatter about this, you know, dad
Speaker 2: of two, his children are older now who have stood
Speaker 2: by him this entire time, he's brought and brought into
Speaker 2: custody and that case is going to be an ongoing
Speaker 2: one and guaranteed to be a huge try. Well, you know, Faddy,
Speaker 2: I know you've been following this closely. Do you want
Speaker 2: to fill us in a little bit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so this this case is like kind of complicated,
Speaker 4: so it's probably something that we're going to be talking
Speaker 4: about often. We're just going to give a little bit
Speaker 4: of backstory to get everybody kind of up to speed
Speaker 4: on where we are today. So Barry Morphew, that is,
Speaker 4: he was married to su Suzanne. He was indicted Friday
Speaker 4: for the second time on June twentieth for the alleged
Speaker 4: murder of her Suzanne. She was just she disappeared on
Speaker 4: Mother's Day in twenty twenty like the height of COVID, right,
Speaker 4: you remember, and yeah, outside I've been Yeah, right after
Speaker 4: going for a bike ride near their home in Mofat, Colorado. Well,
Speaker 4: Barry got arrested in twenty twenty one, so about a
Speaker 4: year later. I think it was almost exactly a year later, actually,
Speaker 4: if I remember correctly, And prosecutors pointed to suspicious text, unusual.
Speaker 3: Behavior, and a little bit of forensic.
Speaker 4: Evidence suggesting Suzanne may have been planning to leave him
Speaker 4: because she was having an a face. She sent him
Speaker 4: a text saying, you know, like we just need to
Speaker 4: end the civilly.
Speaker 3: I'm done.
Speaker 4: I'm being paraphrasing, right, So, but however, the charges were
Speaker 4: dropped another year later, in twenty twenty two, because the
Speaker 4: prosecution recognized they just didn't have enough. And once you
Speaker 4: prosecute someone, that's it. You don't get a second chance, right, Well,
Speaker 4: Karen Reid, but normally unless there's a mystery.
Speaker 2: You said those two words not bad. Yeah, this was
Speaker 2: the first day I have been Mum's the word, Karen Reids.
Speaker 4: So in September of twenty twenty three, another year later,
Speaker 4: they found her body. And they found her body and
Speaker 4: it was basically skeletal remains that were discovered along with
Speaker 4: new compelling evidence that reignited everything. So the new compelling
Speaker 4: evidence that they found were her bone marrow after the
Speaker 4: autopsy and whatnot. Her bone marrow contained a substance that's
Speaker 4: called BAM and I'm not you can look it up.
Speaker 4: It's it's a lot of fancy medicine words that I
Speaker 4: can't pronounce. And this BAM is basically a cocktail tranquilizer
Speaker 4: that's used on a deer farm to tranquilize deer. And
Speaker 4: the important piece to note here, Barry is the only
Speaker 4: one in that area of Colorado basically that had a
Speaker 4: prescription for BAM. Really yeah, wow, Yeah, So that's basically
Speaker 4: what they were missing. Now, it's also kind of important
Speaker 4: to know that her skeletal remains were found, okay, but
Speaker 4: there were things that made the investigators suspect that she
Speaker 4: didn't she wasn't put there initially. And some of those
Speaker 4: things are her bones were bleached, which means don't be
Speaker 4: like me. It doesn't mean they were actually bleached with chemicals.
Speaker 4: They were sun bleached. So she had exposure to the
Speaker 4: sun for an extended period of time.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 4: Her the clone thing she was dressed in like a
Speaker 4: biking outfit, okay, and the clothing didn't show signs of
Speaker 4: decomp So that's another thing. Another one was that there
Speaker 4: was no bug activity or the lack of bug activity,
Speaker 4: so there weren't like those husks and those cycles of
Speaker 4: maggots that we that we learned from Jess. Yeah, so
Speaker 4: they don't believe that she was was initially placed there.
Speaker 4: They think that she was moved at some point, which
Speaker 4: is frightening.
Speaker 5: If I'm understanding, and if what the prosecution is alleging
Speaker 5: is true, then her husband kept the clothes she was wearing,
Speaker 5: put her somewhere where there was no bug activity, and
Speaker 5: then decided to put these clothes that he'd been storing
Speaker 5: who knows on her now decayed body.
Speaker 3: Well, is that right? Would she?
Speaker 4: Is that?
Speaker 2: Assuming that she he took her. Just to add to
Speaker 2: that courtney, that he put her somewhere indoors and we
Speaker 2: doped her there for a couple of years.
Speaker 4: Well, her bones were bleached, so and that means by
Speaker 4: the sun, right, right, So she was out in the open.
Speaker 4: And that doesn't mean there was no bug activity there.
Speaker 4: It just means there was no bug activity or burial
Speaker 4: site where they found her.
Speaker 3: I understand.
Speaker 5: Oh, so that would have occurred already.
Speaker 4: That would have occurred that her initial resting place, but
Speaker 4: when he moved her, and he could have gone to
Speaker 4: a store and bought a new.
Speaker 3: Outfit to put on her. Oh even weirder, I know,
Speaker 3: and her hair mass was gone too, which is wait,
Speaker 3: what does that mean? I don't know, Like she didn't
Speaker 3: have any hair. Yeah, I thought your hair didn't go away.
Speaker 3: It doesn't. Oh, so she didn't have any hair like
Speaker 3: he cut it off?
Speaker 4: Well, I asked Joseph Scott Morgan this on our show
Speaker 4: on Sunday. I feel slightly and he mentioned, and he
Speaker 4: mentioned that it's possible because she was out in the
Speaker 4: open that birds used it for nesting, so they smoothed.
Speaker 3: Down and they pick it up.
Speaker 5: Listen.
Speaker 3: I'm addicted to those balls eagles in in Big Bear,
Speaker 3: so I know they do this too.
Speaker 2: I love that, I know, but not if they're taking
Speaker 2: her beautiful hair with them. I have mixed feelings. Then
Speaker 2: this is like a I'm so curious to hear more,
Speaker 2: but I'm also slightly nauseated. So the idea is that
Speaker 2: her beautiful body was found without her hair, and she
Speaker 2: had been redressed by her wackadoo potentially allegedly allegedly husband
Speaker 2: who was married to her for so many years. They
Speaker 2: shared two beautiful children that are now adults, and they've
Speaker 2: stood by their dad. And he's dressing her after knocking
Speaker 2: her off a bicycle and drugging her with BAM.
Speaker 4: Well, I don't think she actually went on the spike ride.
Speaker 3: He think he was faking the bike ride.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, the bike ride is completely made up, either
Speaker 4: allegedly allegedly allegedly.
Speaker 3: Really, this is like a full time job, Barry. So
Speaker 3: he may be drug he posed he staged.
Speaker 4: Evidence shows that that she was because the BAM, which
Speaker 4: is that chemical that tranquilizer in metaboli in her body,
Speaker 4: which means that she had basically in her system for
Speaker 4: quite some time before she was murdered.
Speaker 5: Oh listen, I am really intrigued to see what comes
Speaker 5: out in trial and what evidence is laid out. We
Speaker 5: want to hear from you. Eighty eight three to one Crime.
Speaker 5: Give us a call and we have a talkback right now.
Speaker 8: Hey, this is Caroline. I'm such a big fan of
Speaker 8: the show. I had a question actually about the case
Speaker 8: about the man in Colorado who killed his wife on
Speaker 8: Mother's Day. So you said she was staying in a
Speaker 8: hotel away for work, and she was killed on a
Speaker 8: bike ride. So is he lying about where he was
Speaker 8: or was he following her for a while, Like I
Speaker 8: guess I'm confused on maybe the timeline of that.
Speaker 4: If you guys have any insight, it is confusing. Caroline,
Speaker 4: thank you for that, yeah, and thank you for the talkback.
Speaker 4: It is confusing. So there's no evidence that she actually
Speaker 4: went on a bike ride. In fact, if you read
Speaker 4: the grand jury indictment, which I've read ad nauseum a
Speaker 4: million times because I'm.
Speaker 2: Obsessed with it, like it's horrible, but that racks because
Speaker 2: that's why you're so good. You well do notice every
Speaker 2: detail and take the time I try. It's really important.
Speaker 4: Thank you so it in this indictment it said, God,
Speaker 4: now I forgot what I was gonna say, because it
Speaker 4: was important I had to do.
Speaker 5: With the bike. It was clarification for the bike ride,
Speaker 5: and thank you, thank you so.
Speaker 4: In the indictment it said that they believe she was
Speaker 4: killed at home because the location of her phone along
Speaker 4: with his phone and when it was turned off, like
Speaker 4: it was connected to a certain tower at the home. Additionally,
Speaker 4: they found the cap for the syringe that he would
Speaker 4: have stuck her with in the dryer. I took the
Speaker 4: dryer apart. You guys, they they dismantled the dryer. I
Speaker 4: don't know how they was. Yes, this guy, remember there
Speaker 4: was no bike ride. There was no bike ride. But
Speaker 4: he did go to a hotel for work. But the
Speaker 4: time that he was there didn't really match with this job.
Speaker 3: It's a lot.
Speaker 4: Listen, there's a lot to unpack, and we're going to
Speaker 4: throughout you know, the next the next couple of weeks,
Speaker 4: like for sure, because there's so much and I have
Speaker 4: a whole timeline I can go over, you know. I mean,
Speaker 4: I have a whole spreadsheet on this case.
Speaker 3: We haven't going to do a whole night on this.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, So I'm understanding it because I do remember
Speaker 2: when he was first arrested about a year to your point,
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one. I remember that, Yeah, and I
Speaker 2: remember his daughters really standing by him. They seemed lovely
Speaker 2: beyond you know, he seemed like, I don't know, based
Speaker 2: on nothing on the news.
Speaker 3: You know, I was like, there's no way he did that.
Speaker 3: You know, this guy's he's grieving.
Speaker 4: Well in it that released and so basically what they
Speaker 4: thought or what you know, Barry and the kids were like,
Speaker 4: presenting was that, you know, Susanne was having an affair,
Speaker 4: and she was, she had rekindled a relationship with like
Speaker 4: an old high school sweetheart, but he lived out of state.
Speaker 4: And the idea was that she basically went on this
Speaker 4: bike ride but really wasn't going on a bike ride
Speaker 4: and went and ran off with this guy.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: That was basically what they were thinking, well what they
Speaker 4: were presenting to the press and the police. Right. But
Speaker 4: of course this guy is like, what do you mean, No, Like,
Speaker 4: I haven't talked to her in three weeks. She's ghosted me,
Speaker 4: you know, Like yeah, so it's very there's a lot.
Speaker 5: Do we know if his children have spoken out since
Speaker 5: the arrest. I haven't seen.
Speaker 4: I know, not that I don't listen, I mean, and
Speaker 4: I don't expect them to. This has got to be
Speaker 4: especially this bam evidence, right, because he's the only one
Speaker 4: with access to this cocktail in like in this area
Speaker 4: of Colorado. He's the only one with this prescription and
Speaker 4: he's had it since twenty eighteen because he had this
Speaker 4: deer farm in it like Indiana, and he stocked up
Speaker 4: on it when they moved to Colorado, and he's the
Speaker 4: only one like with a licensed slash prescription. You have
Speaker 4: this medication and they found it in her bone marrow.
Speaker 4: Now this is medication too.
Speaker 3: It's important to know. This is horrific and it's not
Speaker 3: meant for humans. By the way.
Speaker 4: Okay, so there's no been, no studies on humans. But
Speaker 4: it's my understanding and reading about it as much as
Speaker 4: I possibly can, that you are kind of conscious. Now
Speaker 4: you're tranquilized, but you're you're conscious.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, throw away the key, away the key.
Speaker 5: Well, listen. Coming up next, it's Pride month and we
Speaker 5: are highlighting a story not just important to us, but
Speaker 5: important to the entire LGBTQ community. It is the twenty
Speaker 5: one year old college student Matthew Shepherd pivotally important. Give
Speaker 5: us a call eight eight eight three to one crime.
Speaker 5: We want your thoughts, keep you your true crimes tonight.
Speaker 3: I'm feeling a little mad about this very or few case.
Speaker 3: Thank you for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's made me angry. I don't know that I
Speaker 2: knew that much detail, So thank you for unpacking that.
Speaker 2: And I definitely want us to keep covering that.
Speaker 3: H It's terrible. It's just a terrible tale. We actually
Speaker 3: have a talk back, and here we go.
Speaker 10: That's just Kim and the thought that I've had a
Speaker 10: few times regarding the Karen Reid case. If the one
Speaker 10: coup left to go to work at one thirty, where
Speaker 10: was his car and where was John at the time,
Speaker 10: I'm very confused.
Speaker 2: Well, well, well, isn't that a great question? A little
Speaker 2: throwback to our Karen Reid posts. The verdict if you
Speaker 2: haven't been following along as many of us have, Karen
Speaker 2: Reid was found not.
Speaker 3: Guilty of two of the three charges that she was
Speaker 3: accused of.
Speaker 2: She was accused of killing her boyfriend, maybe accidentally, after
Speaker 2: a long day of drinking, running him over with her
Speaker 2: lexus on a very stormy night. But she's now been
Speaker 2: in released and those charges are no longer a thing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I throw it to you, guys, because I have a
Speaker 2: stinking suspicion. You know what my opinion is on this?
Speaker 2: What do you think that means?
Speaker 5: I think it makes no sense. Nobody's doing their paperwork
Speaker 5: at the office at one thirty after a night of drinking.
Speaker 5: That is insanity, by the way, So it's in the
Speaker 5: wee morning, thirty in the wee morning. But the question
Speaker 5: is so interesting because if what the prosecution says is true,
Speaker 5: then John o'keef, the victim in all of this, would
Speaker 5: have been lying right at the end of the driveway
Speaker 5: of the house, and therefore the officer would have what
Speaker 5: stepped over it. Again, if what the prosecution allegens is true.
Speaker 4: His body is at the flagpole, wasn't it. It wasn't
Speaker 4: at the end of the driveway.
Speaker 2: With the flag poles pretty much at the end of
Speaker 2: the driveway or pretty close to the driveway. I haven't
Speaker 2: physically been there, so I hope I'm not saying that incorrectly, Like.
Speaker 3: Could you just miss him because he was maybe married
Speaker 3: in or snow?
Speaker 4: It's I mean, if if it's one thirty when he
Speaker 4: left the house and I don't know that it is,
Speaker 4: but you know, is it possible that snow was covering
Speaker 4: I mean, it was snowing pretty hard.
Speaker 3: It was a blizzard. I mean, it really was. But
Speaker 3: how could he not see him?
Speaker 5: Yeah, Ryan Higgins, I mean, the guy is an officer
Speaker 5: and would know how to look for or notice that somebody.
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I don't know that he would
Speaker 4: have been like where's John. I mean, as far as
Speaker 4: they knew at the party. Let's call it that at
Speaker 4: the party, Karen and John just didn't show up.
Speaker 5: That's fair. And I guess we'll actually never know if
Speaker 5: he was wondering about that that night, because there's no
Speaker 5: cell phone.
Speaker 3: I mean, anybody ask him that in trial?
Speaker 4: Do you guys know? Like, wouldn't one wouldn't the defense
Speaker 4: ask him that, Like, Hey, you left to go to
Speaker 4: work at one thirty? How come you didn't see John
Speaker 4: out there? If Karen Reid hit him with her car
Speaker 4: at twelve twenty four or whatever whatever.
Speaker 3: Time it was, And why did you get ready your phone? Yeah?
Speaker 4: And why did you go to work after drinking all day? Right?
Speaker 3: It was clerical work too. It wasn't as though he
Speaker 3: had a shift or something.
Speaker 2: It was like administrative paperwork that he decided to get
Speaker 2: ahead of at one thirty in the morning, allegedly. We
Speaker 2: also don't know where he is, nor has he done
Speaker 2: any of the post Karen read Verdict press.
Speaker 3: He's disappeared.
Speaker 2: Most people have done press, every one of them that
Speaker 2: was in that house or at that after party. Not
Speaker 2: all of them, but the heavy hitters have spoken out,
Speaker 2: the Alberts who were the homeowners, you know, Proctor who
Speaker 2: was the initial trooper who covered the case and was
Speaker 2: a big witness in the first case, and then was
Speaker 2: you know, fired for his job for his terrible law.
Speaker 3: Enforcement skills at that time.
Speaker 2: But you know, even he has done, you know, an interview,
Speaker 2: but we haven't heard from Higgins in reporting them too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the mccabees too, that's correct.
Speaker 5: But Brian, really his suspicion was so I mean, there's
Speaker 5: so many suspicious things with him. You know that he
Speaker 5: went there to move vehicles due to the storm, is
Speaker 5: why he went to the police department at one thirty
Speaker 5: in the morning. Yet he did that inside and is
Speaker 5: on footage seen with what appears to be a cell phone.
Speaker 5: So he's not moving vehicles, he's not doing paperwork. He
Speaker 5: went to retrieve whatever was on that cell phone and
Speaker 5: throw it in a military base in the garbage. That
Speaker 5: is what I think. And I loved that talk back.
Speaker 5: And now body, we want to shift to Matthew Shepherd.
Speaker 5: Such an important story so to talk about.
Speaker 4: I mean, I remember when this happened, so you know,
Speaker 4: I'm old enough to remember when this happened, and it
Speaker 4: was very shocking, even in these times, it was shocking.
Speaker 4: So this happened in nineteen ninety eight and Matthew Shepherd,
Speaker 4: he was a twenty one year old gay University of
Speaker 4: Wyoming student and he was out at a bar and
Speaker 4: he was you know, basically lured into a car and
Speaker 4: was brutally murdered. He was murdered by two men, Aaron
Speaker 4: McKinney and Russell Henderson. They tied him up to a
Speaker 4: fence and beat him severely and left him to die.
Speaker 4: And Shepherd was temperatures too, yeah, right right, And he
Speaker 4: was found like eighteen or nineteen hours later and was
Speaker 4: taken to the hospital and he succumbed to his injuries
Speaker 4: six days later, and both suspects, Aaron McKinley and Russell
Speaker 4: Henderson were sentenced to life in prison. Shepherd's case drew
Speaker 4: massive national attention, and I think this is one of
Speaker 4: the first cases that I remember a gay person being
Speaker 4: murdered in it being on news every single night. I
Speaker 4: distinctly remember this, and ultimately this led to the Matthew
Speaker 4: Shepherd and James Bird Junior Hate Crimes Prevention Act of
Speaker 4: two thousand and nine, which Obama implemented. The Shepherd Burn
Speaker 4: Hate Crimes Act was a humongous step in the right direction,
Speaker 4: you know, like for protection, but we still have a
Speaker 4: long way to go in this country in the current
Speaker 4: political environment is not favorable, right.
Speaker 2: No, And you know Judy and Dennis, Matthew's parents, you know,
Speaker 2: they became huge advocates after such terrible loss. Remember this
Speaker 2: was a violent crime, yeah, you know, the likes of
Speaker 2: which you know, we hadn't really seen maybe at the forefront,
Speaker 2: so you know, to be left there the way he was.
Speaker 3: But yeah, for.
Speaker 4: Eighteen hours, and he was alive, and he was alive,
Speaker 4: and he was severely beaten, and by all accounts, Matthew
Speaker 4: Shepherd was just a sweet young man, like the sweetest
Speaker 4: young man. I want to mention the other man that
Speaker 4: the act honors, James per Junior. He was a black
Speaker 4: man who was murdered the same year as Matthew Shepherd.
Speaker 4: You often don't hear about him. He was offered a
Speaker 4: ride unknowingly by three white supremacists who then chained them
Speaker 4: up to a truck and dragged him to his death.
Speaker 4: Two of his killers were put to death and one
Speaker 4: was serving life in prison. So it honors both Matthew
Speaker 4: and James. And you know, I think, listen, no, murderer
Speaker 4: is good, I mean none, and they died horribly. But
Speaker 4: I think this the Hate the Hate Crimes Prevention Act,
Speaker 4: that is, you know, in their name, basically gives them
Speaker 4: a legacy, you know, which is protecting hopefully, hopefully protecting
Speaker 4: people in the future.
Speaker 8: Right.
Speaker 5: And it also it helps with the prosecution of people
Speaker 5: who really need to be prosecuted for these crimes because
Speaker 5: the acts. The Act gives federal authority, which is more
Speaker 5: power to assist and to take over investigation, and more
Speaker 5: manpower and all of the above.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: It's interesting too.
Speaker 4: One of the the convicted killers in the Matthew Shepherd case, McKinney,
Speaker 4: he his defense used a really controversial defense and it's
Speaker 4: called gay panic, and if you don't know what that is,
Speaker 4: it basically shifts blame to the victim. Right.
Speaker 3: So basically what he's.
Speaker 4: Saying is like, Matthew Shepherd was coming up to me,
Speaker 4: I panicked, you know, like it's disgusting using that kind
Speaker 4: of language. And the judge famously, right, was like, no,
Speaker 4: you don't get to do that.
Speaker 3: You do not get to do that.
Speaker 2: In fact, if I remember this correctly, those two men
Speaker 2: basically almost pretended that they did so that they kind
Speaker 2: of beframeed word with you, and therefore they lured him
Speaker 2: and knowing full well that they wanted to do unspeakable
Speaker 2: things to him, right, And I mean, and I'm talking unspeakable.
Speaker 2: This was an amazing twenty one year old student.
Speaker 3: He was a college student. Oh, he was so sweet
Speaker 3: and his family's so lovely.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, there's there's plays and films and
Speaker 4: books and all kinds of activism surrounding this case. And
Speaker 4: there's really good documentaries about Matthew Shepherd, and you know,
Speaker 4: and additionally too, this kind of sprung up that it's
Speaker 4: just important to talk about the Trevor Project. Yes, right,
Speaker 4: so I'm familiar with the Trevor Project. It's a twenty
Speaker 4: four our twenty four hours, seven days a week resource
Speaker 4: for It's a crisis support center for LGBTQ people that
Speaker 4: they can call at any time, specifically youth, right, because
Speaker 4: when you're young and you can't talk to your parents,
Speaker 4: I mean, like especially if you're in the closet, like
Speaker 4: what are you supposed to do? And maybe you're going
Speaker 4: to be rejected? Right, your friends are gonna beat you up.
Speaker 4: Your friends are gonna maybe not want to be your
Speaker 4: friend anymore. And now not only are you feeling maybe
Speaker 4: a little in crisis and suicidal, but now you've just
Speaker 4: lost your entire friend network and your parents are you know,
Speaker 4: disappointed in you. Like it's just a really bad place
Speaker 4: for people to be. So if you are listening and
Speaker 4: you can hear my voice and you're feeling alone, I
Speaker 4: just want you to know that you're not alone, and
Speaker 4: you could call the Trevor Project. I'm sorry, I'm a nightmare.
Speaker 4: I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3: No, it's nice. The opposite of being a nightmare, this is,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 4: Call the Trevor Project at eight six six six I'm sorry,
Speaker 4: eight six six four eight eight seven three eighty six.
Speaker 4: And do not be embarrassed to call them. Please call
Speaker 4: them if you're having any kind of, you know, harmful thoughts.
Speaker 4: They're there to help you. They're a wonderful organization. Do
Speaker 4: not be ashamed. You have nothing to be ashamed about.
Speaker 2: Be shamed, no, exactly. And we'll put that on the
Speaker 2: website too, so you know we have that information in
Speaker 2: one place.
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm it's so listen.
Speaker 5: It's so prevalent, even according to his recent as a
Speaker 5: twenty twenty one CDC Survey Survey, forty six percent, almost
Speaker 5: half of LGBTQ plus adults have reported experiencing some kind
Speaker 5: of discrimination or harassment due to their identity. So to
Speaker 5: have an act that is protective of that is a
Speaker 5: legacy for Matthew Sugar and I think Shepherd.
Speaker 4: And I think you know, listen, he his life was
Speaker 4: cut way too short. But it's just lovely that there
Speaker 4: is something to remember him by. And like the Matthew
Speaker 4: shep Foundation, I think is I think is the name
Speaker 4: of it too. They do a lot of outreach as well,
Speaker 4: and you can google that and find them. His mom
Speaker 4: is very involved in it, like his mom and dad
Speaker 4: are so proud of him. Yes as well, they so
Speaker 4: lovely and they're absolutely lovely. But yeah, no, I loved
Speaker 4: that the Gay Panic Defense got you know, in the
Speaker 4: toilet by the judging very famously.
Speaker 3: It's it's very good.
Speaker 5: One more time. The Trevor Project Crisis Hotline can be
Speaker 5: reached anytime one eight eight eight four eight eight seven
Speaker 5: three eight six.
Speaker 2: I don't know how the time really flew. It's crazy,
Speaker 2: really flew. We actually have a talk back. Let's go
Speaker 2: to that real quick.
Speaker 11: Hey, So I think I was listening to your podcast
Speaker 11: about the Diddy parties, and I think that when partying
Speaker 11: becomes non consensual, I think that that's where freak off
Speaker 11: crosses the line.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, fair like you have to get consent every
Speaker 4: single encounter, right, You have to give consent every single encounter,
Speaker 4: and I don't.
Speaker 2: Might have gotten a little loss in translation with all
Speaker 2: the Bill Maher talk, et cetera. Even if you've consented once,
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, two years later, what do you mean.
Speaker 2: Bill Maher was like, well, you know it was consensual.
Speaker 2: And you know in the Diddy freak offs, you know
Speaker 2: Jane his ex and ex Cassie Ventura, you know it's
Speaker 2: mixed messages.
Speaker 7: You know it was.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's a sentiment.
Speaker 2: It's a sentiment that many people with and I, you know,
Speaker 2: I just think it's worth the clarity. Again, this is
Speaker 2: my personal opinion only as a woman, But yeah, you
Speaker 2: need consent, and just because you've consented to it the
Speaker 2: first time doesn't mean fifteen times later makes it okay.
Speaker 2: Because we know full well based on that testimony, if
Speaker 2: you believe it, that they wanted out, and that is
Speaker 2: something that should have been respected.
Speaker 3: My two cents, My two cents only.
Speaker 5: But I don't even know should that be called an
Speaker 5: opinion or just a fact that consent should be a
Speaker 5: baseline for really any interaction whatsoever. Yeah, you know, regardless
Speaker 5: of gender, regardless of gender, right, and even you know,
Speaker 5: any situation. And actually, for anyone here who's young or old,
Speaker 5: who's listening, and you are in a situation that seemed
Speaker 5: fun and you quote got yourself into and feel embarrassed,
Speaker 5: it's okay to get yourself out of it. If things
Speaker 5: feel that you don't want them to continue. You're not
Speaker 5: at fault for allowing something to get to a certain
Speaker 5: place and then saying no, that is your right, That
Speaker 5: is your right.
Speaker 2: But you know, stuff like this that we're seeing in
Speaker 2: this ditty trial as he potentially gets off. You know, again,
Speaker 2: it's a very mixed time. That's a mixed message.
Speaker 3: You know, we are hearing.
Speaker 2: Cassie Ventura specifically said in text that she did not
Speaker 2: feel comfortable doing this anymore, and also Jane said it
Speaker 2: felt very degrading and she wasn't comfortable with it anymore,
Speaker 2: and she was coerced back to do it or told
Speaker 2: if she didn't get back in there. You know, there's
Speaker 2: stuff my released to the press, or there would be
Speaker 2: some sort of repercussions. And we've seen how violent he
Speaker 2: can be. That's a tough spot. And you know that's
Speaker 2: a tough spot.
Speaker 3: So I don't know. I can't belabor it anymore.
Speaker 4: But our talk back makes a good point, like the
Speaker 4: freak offs crossed the line, right, especially in light of
Speaker 4: the text messages like you said stuff like yeah, what
Speaker 4: do you think? What do you when do you think
Speaker 4: the So we think the jury might get the case Monday, right,
Speaker 4: so Thursday and Friday, according to Inner City Press. Right.
Speaker 4: He was a guest tonight. Wonderful by the way, he
Speaker 4: was so so good. He said that they probably get
Speaker 4: it Monday. How long do you think they deliberate? Real quick,
Speaker 4: real quick? Oh god, h three days, three days, Stephanie,
Speaker 4: that was my day.
Speaker 5: One day.
Speaker 3: I say day, I say two days, You say two days.
Speaker 3: So we're two three okay, all right, smack in the middle.
Speaker 2: I think one day, but it could be a one
Speaker 2: day and they just all don't think he has proven
Speaker 2: to be a rocketeur.
Speaker 4: I think they're going to be able to prove the
Speaker 4: sex trafficking. I don't know about the rico. I just
Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's possibly Rico, but I don't
Speaker 4: know that the jury is going to think that.
Speaker 2: And what's interesting is tomorrow is that sentencing portion of this,
Speaker 2: So you know, the sentencing night will have charging conference exactly,
Speaker 2: will have very interesting intel about what the charges entail
Speaker 2: and sort of what the judge had to say about
Speaker 2: that tomorrow, so more on that obviously. And also we
Speaker 2: have a very special friend of Kat and of ours,
Speaker 2: journalist Connor Powell, is joining us tomorrow, So big round
Speaker 2: of applause for that true crime tonight. We'll see you
Speaker 2: tomorrow