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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. Oh we're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. We're so happy that you're here.

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Speaker 2: It's Tuesday, June twenty fourth Wild Night of Headlines everyone,

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Speaker 2: so again, settle in. We were just saying, this is

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Speaker 2: my favorite two hours of the night, so I'm so

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Speaker 2: happy that we're all here together. Listen this Diddy thing.

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Speaker 2: Diddy is going to have closing arguments. The prosecution apparently

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Speaker 2: may rest as soon as Thursday, so so much on that.

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Speaker 2: We have a very special guest who is back. Matthew

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Speaker 2: Lee Russell of Inner City Press is back and has

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Speaker 2: been in the courthouse and is going to be reporting

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Speaker 2: to us live, so we can't wait to have him

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Speaker 2: in the next segment. And then also Travis Decker, father

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Speaker 2: accused of killing his three daughters. He remains at large

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Speaker 2: and his now ex wife and mother of those three

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Speaker 2: beautiful children speaks out for the very first time. And

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Speaker 2: also we have some new developments in the Brian Coberger

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Speaker 2: Idaho college murders. Once again, the defense is stacking the deck,

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Speaker 2: and apparently one of his former jailhouse security people guards

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Speaker 2: if you will, is apparently going to speak in his favors.

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Speaker 2: So first and foremost, let's get to Diddy. But before that,

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Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Leidecker, I head of Katie's Studios. We make

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Speaker 2: true crime podcasts and documentaries. I know we're probably sick

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Speaker 2: of hearing me say that by now, but I get

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Speaker 2: to do that every day with Body move in and

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and this incredible team. And we really want

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Speaker 2: to hear from you. So eight eight eight three one crime.

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Speaker 2: Please join this conversation. Lots of headlines to get through,

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Speaker 2: but we really want to hear from you. So, Diddy, Courtney,

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Speaker 2: where do we want to begin?

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Speaker 3: It will start me go take it away, Body, I'm

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Speaker 3: doing it. It's gonna be me.

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Speaker 2: It's gonna bead jumping.

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Speaker 3: Day twenty nine. Can you believe it's been twenty nine?

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Speaker 4: Day twenty nine in the trial against Diddy Comb's there

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Speaker 4: was another full day of testimony from summary witness Joseph Circiello.

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Speaker 3: He is the special Agent for Homeland Security.

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Speaker 4: He's doing the summary witness testimony and just a quick recap.

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Speaker 4: A summary witness means somebody that's presenting a lot of

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Speaker 4: like super complicated evidence in summary fashion and making it

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Speaker 4: like super digestible for the jury to understand. So it's

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Speaker 4: a lot of evidence all at once summarized and.

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Speaker 2: A lot of texts just like lots of stuff kind

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Speaker 2: of summed down.

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Speaker 3: I guess it's like.

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Speaker 4: A succinct version of a lot of complicated information. Right.

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Speaker 4: The defense did not call any additional witnesses. The prosecution

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Speaker 4: and the defense rested their case today. Done, it's done.

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Speaker 4: Closing arguments are expected to begin Thursday, but we don't

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Speaker 4: know for sure, but it's expected to begin Thursday. So

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Speaker 4: prosecutors are alleging that from two thousand and four to

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty four, so for the past twenty years, did

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Speaker 4: he operated a criminal enterprise that involved kidnapping, arson, bribery,

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Speaker 4: and sex trafficking. He used his influence in the music

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Speaker 4: industry to lure people in and he's facing life in prison.

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Speaker 4: He has pled not guilty to all these charges. It's

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Speaker 4: I mean, today was a big day. They're done, they're closing,

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Speaker 4: They're done.

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Speaker 2: I'm so curious what your thoughts are in terms of

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Speaker 2: just the optics, you know, is it a big finish?

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Speaker 2: The prosecution is resting, their court has gone tomorrow, they're

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Speaker 2: off tomorrow or at recess tomorrow. So this was it.

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Speaker 2: This was the big, the big crescendo, drop the mic.

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Speaker 2: I don't know about a summary witness being emotional enough,

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Speaker 2: you know, sometimes, you know, reminding everybody the emotional stakes

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Speaker 2: involved can really be moving to a jury. I wonder

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Speaker 2: if I feel like they just kind of went out

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Speaker 2: with a whimper, yeah, instead of a bang. You know,

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Speaker 2: it just was kind of like a whimper.

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Speaker 5: Well, I agree with you from the defenses, excuse me

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Speaker 5: from the prosecution, but I think the defense actually had

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Speaker 5: their way a little bit with this witness. So Boddy,

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Speaker 5: if you want to explain a little bit more of

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Speaker 5: what went on with Ciriella's testimony, sir, I think he

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Speaker 5: defense got their bang.

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Speaker 4: Joseph Circiello showed text messages from Jane where she appeared

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Speaker 4: to be a willing participant, like in this this whole thing.

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Speaker 4: He showed Jane texting a male escort. His name was

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Speaker 4: car Burrolay, Am I saying that right? Carbroley Carburlat car Brolet,

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Speaker 4: he is a male escort. In December of twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 4: he sent this text message, Okay, now listen, don't don't

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Speaker 4: get grossed out by me saying this. It's not me

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Speaker 4: saying it. Okay, This is Jane to him Tody, no, no, no,

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry. Coberlet to Jane. Copy it's a pretty court

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Speaker 4: to Jane. The escort to Jane, understood a pretty intense night.

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Speaker 4: That was the roughest sex we've ever had. Loved it,

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Speaker 4: and Jane responded, definitely one for the books. Damn baby,

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Speaker 4: you got me so hot. Listen, I feel really dumb

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Speaker 4: saying this. You want you want to come back tonight

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Speaker 4: or tomorrow morning. Several days after the six change, Jane

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Speaker 4: sent him the escort travel arrangements, so it made it

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Speaker 4: appear like Jane was not only a willing participant, but

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Speaker 4: like actually engaging and like arranging, you know, for all

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Speaker 4: this to happen. The jury also saw text messages in

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Speaker 4: which Jane, again she's a pseudonyme, appeared to express her

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Speaker 4: love and appreciation for Diddy. I'll never take you for granted,

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Speaker 4: one message, said. The defense showed. Text showed texts suggesting

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Speaker 4: Ditty and Jane tried to hide their sexual activity from

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Speaker 4: the staff, which is going to go to, you know, racketeering.

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Speaker 4: The racketeering piece, like, not all the staff was involved.

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Speaker 4: You know, they didn't have knowledge of this. It was

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Speaker 4: Ditty's private life. You know, it's it's all this. So

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Speaker 4: in one two thousand twenty three message from Diddy it said,

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Speaker 4: you find place I can't have KK. No, yeah, you

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Speaker 4: wasn't arranging all this in this particular case. Again, I'm

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Speaker 4: not accusing KK, but in this particular case though, just

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Speaker 4: to say one little quick thing here before we move

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Speaker 4: on two pieces to this one that might have been

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Speaker 4: the case that day that you know, who knows what

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Speaker 4: else was happening at Comb's Enterprises where, you know, or

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Speaker 4: maybe they had had a combo, maybe she was giving

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Speaker 4: some pushback, who knows. But maybe just because that happened

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Speaker 4: one time, that doesn't discount the many, the many years

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Speaker 4: of this and you know, again, if she knows that

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Speaker 4: he really wants Apparently, according to Jane and Cassie's testimony,

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Speaker 4: they sometimes use the same escorts because they felt as

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Speaker 4: though a that was more intimate, meaning they meaning the

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Speaker 4: victims felt that at least they a little bit had

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Speaker 4: some familiarity, and sometimes that felt safer and a little

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Speaker 4: less scary. So for if you know that you have

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Speaker 4: to participate in these things, is it possible just putting

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Speaker 4: it out there that maybe Jane or any of the

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Speaker 4: victims were engaging with the same people and showing some

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Speaker 4: sort of excitement about that because it was more of

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Speaker 4: a controlled environment. Again just playing devil's advocate, because again,

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Speaker 4: this is complicated emotional stuff, and I fear when we

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Speaker 4: whitewash it too quickly with one broad stroke, some of

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Speaker 4: the nuance might get lost. And for victims that's really hard.

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Speaker 5: It is, and I don't discount any of that. However,

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Speaker 5: taking this is actual testimony, and you asked why not

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Speaker 5: the big bang? For the defense, what this does prove?

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Speaker 5: And even if it was just this one day, the

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Speaker 5: defense can say, oh, look, this was Jane, she was

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Speaker 5: doing the arrangements. Look her and Ditty. Jane and Ditty

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Speaker 5: are saying you know, KK can't know. Therefore there isn't collusion.

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Speaker 5: These aren't people who are working for Ditty or orchestrating

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Speaker 5: these it's people doing it quote willingly, And to ask

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Speaker 5: your question out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, has anybody ever been with somebody an ex or

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Speaker 2: something again, just go with me here for one quick

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Speaker 2: second where you just knew things were terrible somewhere in

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Speaker 2: the back of your head, but you know, somehow you

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Speaker 2: still like put that aside. You ignored it because your

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Speaker 2: feelings were involved, so you sort of said what you

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Speaker 2: maybe shouldn't have said out of contract.

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Speaker 3: Make excuses or make your excuses.

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Speaker 2: And sometimes you make those excuses and put it in

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Speaker 2: a text because you want to, you know, gain back

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Speaker 2: some footing or make them feel comfortable, or you know,

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Speaker 2: think about it. Some of this stuff was so intimate

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Speaker 2: and you know, graphic that I think, according to Jane's testimony,

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Speaker 2: at least it felt almost like she was the only

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Speaker 2: one that was in this little intimate circle with Diddy

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Speaker 2: and his crew, and only she knew him in this way.

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Speaker 2: We also know that's not accurate, but you could see

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Speaker 2: how that could get real twisted if you're already going

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Speaker 2: into this, you know, wide eyed and with rose glasses.

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Speaker 2: I'm just playing it out a little bit, but I

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Speaker 2: do think one text exchange or even the.

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Speaker 4: Jury is going to think like that. That's the important thing, right.

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Speaker 5: I Yes, and where I stand is looking at this

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Speaker 5: as evidence again taking emotion out of it. Of course,

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Speaker 5: what this exchange shows, or what the defense argued that

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Speaker 5: this exchange shows, is that Combs's staff was not involved

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Speaker 5: in this exchange that is being read on cross examination,

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Speaker 5: and they weren't engaged in organizing or funding the encounters,

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Speaker 5: which is what you need for the rico charge. We

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Speaker 5: are talking about really the ditty trial coming to the

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Speaker 5: very end. Give us a call. What are you thinking?

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Speaker 5: Eighty eight three to one crime and we have a

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Speaker 5: talk back?

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Speaker 6: Hi, True Crime tonight, love the show. Did you guys

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Speaker 6: see that Diddy personally told the judge today that he

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Speaker 6: was doing a great job. That really rubbed me the

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Speaker 6: wrong way because it just seemed so arrogant, like he's

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Speaker 6: super confident that the judge thought he'd get off, you know,

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Speaker 6: just because he's famous. He's sure he's going to get

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Speaker 6: away with it. What did you guys think of that?

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Speaker 3: I so agree. I could agree with him more.

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Speaker 4: It goes a line gross, It goes in line with

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Speaker 4: not calling anybody. It's like, look at are we are

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Speaker 4: very confident in our case? Like that that the that

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Speaker 4: the prosecution has not proved anything.

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Speaker 3: I just think it falls in line with the hubris

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Speaker 3: of it all. And how about the.

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Speaker 2: Fact that these women and victims and assistance and people

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Speaker 2: have really put themselves on the line. So whether you

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Speaker 2: like it or agree with it, it's not for us

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Speaker 2: to decide. It's hard for me not to get emotionally

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Speaker 2: attached to some of this stuff. But I feel for Jane.

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Speaker 2: I feel for his ex Cassie. Even so for Cassie,

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Speaker 2: she had a baby, she was pregnant, you know, God willing,

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Speaker 2: she was.

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Speaker 3: Ten years of her.

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Speaker 2: Life were dedicated to this dope. So here she is

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Speaker 2: like sharing these intimate, horrifying details. People are the jury

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Speaker 2: is seeing these tapes. How vulnerable and you know, demeaning

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Speaker 2: must that feel like in the moment, But you put

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Speaker 2: it all there because you want justice well.

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Speaker 4: And her domestic abuses out there for the whole entire

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Speaker 4: world to caculate on commonly make fun of exactly, you know,

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Speaker 4: it's it's I feel bad for Cassie.

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Speaker 2: I do too, So I also feel bad for victims

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Speaker 2: to be to come forward because why would you you know,

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Speaker 2: this is like again, like I thought, it was like

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Speaker 2: pretty bold for this group of women to step forward

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Speaker 2: to say like, yeah, this is something I was into

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Speaker 2: for a minute and judge it if you will, But

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Speaker 2: like then it got really crazy and out of hand

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Speaker 2: and I wanted out, but I couldn't get out. And

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Speaker 2: now I'm being you know, revenge porned, and like, these

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Speaker 2: are really intense things.

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Speaker 3: So they put.

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Speaker 2: Themselves out there. They have to face the person who's

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Speaker 2: done this to them. They know they're dangerous. They've seen

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Speaker 2: the CNN video of you know, did he beating Cassie

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Speaker 2: with one hand while he holds up his towel. They

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Speaker 2: know what the repercussions are, and yet still they showed up.

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Speaker 2: Cassie Ventura still showed up nine months pregnant. She went

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Speaker 2: into labor two days later. And now he might get off.

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Speaker 2: Its seeming like I took a vote right now, and

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Speaker 2: we did in the studio. It was seeming pretty I

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Speaker 2: might be the last man standing here on guilty as charged,

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Speaker 2: which is kind of scary for those who stood themselves,

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Speaker 2: who put themselves out there, I should say they are

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Speaker 2: I'm especially being a community right, yes, like that puts

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Speaker 2: a target on your back by very dangerous people that

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Speaker 2: we did prove he's dangerous.

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Speaker 5: Lots more to discuss Matthew Russell Leaf from Inner City

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Speaker 5: Press is joining us. He has the inside scoop from

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Speaker 5: inside Diddy's courtroom. Later in the show, it's Pride Month.

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Speaker 5: We're going to be highlighting Matthew Shepherd and how much

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Speaker 5: he has impacted our society. Give us a call eight

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Speaker 5: to eight through on Crime hear true crimes in it.

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Speaker 2: Matthew Russell Lee from Inner City. He's here because he's

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Speaker 2: been inside the courtroom at the did He trial? So Matthew,

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Speaker 2: welcome back.

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Speaker 7: Glad to be back, Glad to be back. I'm resurfacing.

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Speaker 7: It's coming to a close, so I'm glad to be

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Speaker 7: back on before you know, it's decided one way or another.

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Speaker 3: It's the home stretch.

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Speaker 2: Matthew, what are you thinking before we say anything, what

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Speaker 2: is top of mind coming out of today?

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Speaker 3: I know it's a big day.

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Speaker 2: Tomorrow court is not in session and then Thursday could

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Speaker 2: be closing arguments. Did he or maybe he'll be home

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Speaker 2: by the weekend.

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Speaker 7: Well no, no, I mean I actually think that just

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Speaker 7: for in terms of scheduling tomorrow. Sadly, we do have

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Speaker 7: to cover something which is the charge conference, the ever

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Speaker 7: important charge conference in which they argue what the legal

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Speaker 7: instructions are going to be to the jury, and that's

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Speaker 7: actually pretty important. I think that's I think sometimes you know,

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Speaker 7: people get I get a lot of responses as I'm

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Speaker 7: live tweeting this, so people react. I'm not saying emotionally

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Speaker 7: is wrong. It's important to like know how you feel

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Speaker 7: about the thing, but a lot of it is going

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Speaker 7: to turn on the legal instruction given to the jury.

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Speaker 7: Plus just so people know. It seems like now that

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Speaker 7: the closing statements are going to go for Thursday and

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Speaker 7: Friday and the jury was it was said late today

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Speaker 7: by Assistant US Attorney Comi that the jury probably won't

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Speaker 7: get the case, i e. Start deliberating until Monday, so

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Speaker 7: they have three days before the holiday. So that's that's

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Speaker 7: where that stands. But if you wanted to the thing,

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Speaker 7: believe it or not, like today was really a roller

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Speaker 7: coaster because it seemed that the defensive cross examination of

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Speaker 7: Special Agent Cercelo was really I thought it was very

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Speaker 7: scattershot and it had it had me feeling like, if

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Speaker 7: this is all they have their law, they're they're they're done,

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Speaker 7: meaning the team Diddy, and it's hit. Didty and his

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Speaker 7: nine lawyers or ten depending on how you count them.

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Speaker 7: But the rule then there was something called the rule

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Speaker 7: twenty nine most yeah, exactly, it's basically it's done. It's

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Speaker 7: sort of it's almost every defendant does it. After the

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Speaker 7: government rests, you say they didn't prove their case, don't

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Speaker 7: even let it go to the jury. And most judges

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Speaker 7: are never going to go with that, because you if

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Speaker 7: it even got this far, it's obviously a close enough

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Speaker 7: question to go to the jury. But they their arguments

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Speaker 7: and it's kind of a preview of what their closing

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Speaker 7: will be and what their appeal if he's convicted, would be.

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Speaker 7: And I have to say, I don't like to say

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Speaker 7: I I know how you not just how you all

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Speaker 7: feel about it. Having sat here, I think Diddy is

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Speaker 7: one of the most weirdest and sickest people that I've

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Speaker 7: seen come through the courthouse. And yet and yet they

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Speaker 7: do have some arguments, and so I don't know if

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Speaker 7: if the arguments will will will we'll have traction with

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Speaker 7: the jury. But I could see some of the arguments

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Speaker 7: having some traction with an appeals court.

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Speaker 2: We just recently were doing a poll even in the

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Speaker 2: studio here. So honestly, like if you had the same

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Speaker 2: poll yesterday, it might have had a different answer, but

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Speaker 2: as of today, most people around in the studio today

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Speaker 2: feel like he's going to get off. I'm the only

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Speaker 2: one that thinks, for like, say that you did, you did.

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Speaker 2: I could see it in your eyes, and I also, yes, I.

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Speaker 7: Can tell yeah, I know, I can see that. It's

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Speaker 7: it's it's it's difficult, it's sort of I think it's

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Speaker 7: I think that I think the jurors would be hard

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Speaker 7: pressed not to. It's fun. There's five counts, so I

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Speaker 7: don't want to. I don't like predicting things, but I

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Speaker 7: would be surprised if you were if he were found

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Speaker 7: not guilty on all five. I would. But I definitely

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Speaker 7: think that there are problems with the Rico charge. Everyone

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Speaker 7: has said it from the beginning. Yeah one, And it's

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Speaker 7: not just as simple as saying, you know that Rico

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Speaker 7: was passed like for the mafia. Right, So it's trying

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Speaker 7: to apply to other things, but it's often applied to

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Speaker 7: drug gangs. But usually the enterprise that it's it's directed

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Speaker 7: at is a criminal It's a criminal enterprise, meaning like

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Speaker 7: the whole goal of the enterprise is crime. That would

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Speaker 7: be like the Banano crime family or the Bloods or

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Speaker 7: the Crisp or that, you know what I mean. And

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Speaker 7: this is like it's a it's a business empire totally

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Speaker 7: based around one individual. And then it's it's it's really

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Speaker 7: depressing in terms of like being an intern or or

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Speaker 7: you know, being a personal assistant, because there's no question

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Speaker 7: that these people became now I don't know what percentage,

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Speaker 7: but a big part of their job became preparing these

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Speaker 7: quote wild king knights and bringing drugs to combs, you know,

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Speaker 7: And so it is, it does. There's criminal there's no

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Speaker 7: question that employees are the enterprise. We're committing crimes for

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Speaker 7: the boss. I don't know. If I don't know if

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Speaker 7: that's Rico, then I think like maybe ten percent of

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Speaker 7: the business of the United States. I was going to say,

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Speaker 7: Cinic could be Rico, right, because all it takes is

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Speaker 7: somebody saying like, hey, I'll help you cheat on your taxes, right,

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Speaker 7: I mean, these are much worse crimes. But if the

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Speaker 7: idea that if any of your employees help you with

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Speaker 7: your personal crimes, your business is a Rico enterprise, it's

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Speaker 7: it's You're going a long way with that.

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Speaker 5: You said you felt that the defenses questioning was scattered.

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Speaker 5: Did I hear you correctly?

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Speaker 7: I do?

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Speaker 8: I do?

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Speaker 7: I think, yeah, I think people. I mean, it's difficult

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Speaker 7: when the government ended with with this this. You know,

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Speaker 7: he's a summary witness. It's not like agents Orcelo knows

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Speaker 7: anything about the case. He basically, despite being a highly experienced,

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Speaker 7: you know, twenty year veteran, they basically give him underlying

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Speaker 7: exhibits and say, you, who are a respected special agent,

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Speaker 7: should testify in court that the charts that we show

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Speaker 7: to summarize the evidence is actually backed up by the evidence.

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Speaker 7: So Comby spent a good day with him. Basically, they

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Speaker 7: you know, because so much of this trial, uh, you

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Speaker 7: had the live testimony of Cassie, you had the live

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Speaker 7: testimony of Mia, the witness known as Mia, and the

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Speaker 7: witness known as Jane. But so much of it is

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Speaker 7: about text messages that they just had. They've we've had

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Speaker 7: probably four days of summary witnesses reading parts of text

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Speaker 7: messages back and forth. And the government wants to emphasize,

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Speaker 7: you know that the that Jane or Cassie said I

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Speaker 7: don't really want to do it, and Combs was like,

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Speaker 7: come on, let's do it, and and then and then

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Speaker 7: on and I it's totally the right of the defense

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Speaker 7: to say, wait a second, aren't there other exhibits in

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Speaker 7: which Jane and Cassie say I really want it and

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Speaker 7: that and that's really it's kind of and so the

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Speaker 7: people that are that are disgusted by Combs are disgusted

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Speaker 7: by those questions because they're basically cherry picking things from

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Speaker 7: in both cases pretty early on in the relationship in

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Speaker 7: which the person was still in love with Combs.

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Speaker 4: Yeahline, no, it's not math you I want to hear.

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Speaker 4: Did he hus been complaining about the sketch artists? He's

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Speaker 4: been saying he's making me look like a Koala bear.

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Speaker 4: Do you think that's a fair assessment, like or do

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Speaker 4: you think it's optically like what he wants?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, exactly. I think I think that was a very

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Speaker 7: I think he wanted to highlight the fact that he's

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Speaker 7: become this I agree, this kind of like harmless old guy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: And also, by the way, I know there's there's two

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Speaker 7: main sketch artists here on stn Y. And they also

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Speaker 7: work sometimes down the street in the State Court and

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Speaker 7: they always get complaints's. They're both very good artists. It's

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Speaker 7: just that nobody likes how they're portrayed. Nobody, and also

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Speaker 7: people view that people view these court sketches depends on

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Speaker 7: what their politics are like. During the Trump trial down

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Speaker 7: the street, if they made Trump look, you know, somewhat

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Speaker 7: normal and even sort of like younger than he really is,

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Speaker 7: then then then Trump detractors would say, you're a propaganda hands.

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Speaker 7: And of course one time they one of them drew

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Speaker 7: I think Tom Brady, and didn't make him look good enough,

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Speaker 7: and he got a lot of firestorms, so I think,

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Speaker 7: but I think I will say this about Shohn Combs.

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Speaker 7: He's definitely it's very limited what you can do as

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Speaker 7: a defendant unless you testify, and today he confirmed that

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Speaker 7: he was not testifying. But he's done everything that he

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Speaker 7: can to impact the trial without testifying. He's nodded at

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Speaker 7: the jurors today, the simple, the simple, alu Kish exactly

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Speaker 7: the elocution. He didn't get in trouble for this today,

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Speaker 7: and I think it was he wasn't in the presence

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Speaker 7: of the jury, but it showed the way he's thinking.

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Speaker 7: He was asked, you know, mister Combs, you know, how

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Speaker 7: are you feeling today by the judge because he has

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Speaker 7: to ask him, do you know you know that you

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Speaker 7: could testify and you're choosing not to? He said, I'm

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Speaker 7: feeling fine, and I just want to tell you, judge,

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Speaker 7: you did a great job. And the judge was kind

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Speaker 7: of like, there's no money in.

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Speaker 3: Your pocket for any time I have anything to do

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Speaker 3: with it. I'm not saying that taking any money, but

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Speaker 3: like you know.

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Speaker 7: Always too smart to be swayed. But yeah, the judge

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Speaker 7: is too smart to be swayed. But I think it

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Speaker 7: does show. I mean, I think also I believe Combs

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Speaker 7: must believe defendants. Do he believes he's going to be exonerated?

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Speaker 7: Maybe he does, well, he always has them. He definitely

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Speaker 7: doesn't think he's going to lose, because if he really

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Speaker 7: thought that on the current record he would lose, he

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Speaker 7: would testify I exactly.

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Speaker 2: You would be throwing everything at it. Does he know

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Speaker 2: something that we don't like? He really does seem like

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Speaker 2: he thinks he's going to be home next week, which

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Speaker 2: maybe is the case.

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Speaker 7: I think he's probably convinced, not that all twelve and

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Speaker 7: there's no universe in which all twelve are going to say,

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Speaker 7: did he thumbs up? Great job? Bro? But I think

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Speaker 7: all he needs is one. The thing is that everyone

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Speaker 7: thinks that, and here in SDN Y at least, and

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Speaker 7: I think in the federal court system as a whole,

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Speaker 7: you know, everyone thinks that. And then the conviction rate

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Speaker 7: is like over ninety five percent?

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Speaker 3: Is it really? Oh, I do not know that.

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Speaker 7: That is the rate. That is the conviction rate. So

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Speaker 7: it's it's that's why. Sometimes that doesn't mean that it's automatic.

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Speaker 7: And I've seen since I've been covering it here, I've

433
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,840
Speaker 7: seen what often happens is either a mistrial, Like a

434
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 7: mistrial is a big victory for the defendant, even though

435
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 7: in this case it wouldn't be that great because I'm

436
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,919
Speaker 7: I'm positive they would put him on trial again. You know,

437
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 7: oh yeah, absolutely, are they really believe in this? They

438
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 7: believe in this case. And I think I think in

439
00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 7: a way that the sort of what makes it hard

440
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,360
Speaker 7: to win this case is is that the victory it's

441
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,239
Speaker 7: not the conventional victim, right, it's not. It's not I mean,

442
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 7: let's put.

443
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:06,200
Speaker 8: It this way.

444
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 7: It's not like a runaway was turned into a prostitute

445
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,160
Speaker 7: and then tried to escape and couldn't or that's right,

446
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:16,120
Speaker 7: that's yeah, Yeah, they I mean, I was going over

447
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 7: even just before calling in, I was. I live tweeted

448
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 7: the this real twenty nine motion argument by by Alexander Shapiro,

449
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 7: who's like going to be the appellate lawyer if he loses,

450
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 7: and it was very she said, it's it's kind of mean,

451
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 7: but she said, like, it's not. It's not coercion to

452
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 7: not be taken on a yacht trip to Turks and Caicos,

453
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 7: Like that's not what forced. That's not And in a

454
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 7: way in the in the government's theory, I think what

455
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 7: they're trying to do in part not in part. I

456
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,239
Speaker 7: think they saw everyone saw the CNN video and they

457
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 7: said the law has to be able to get to this,

458
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,400
Speaker 7: and California authorities didn't do it. It was beyond the statute

459
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 7: of limitations. This seems much worse than even domestic violence.

460
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 7: It's a it's a whole company, you know, used to

461
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 7: conceal these horrendous sexual, weird, sexual and abusive things, and

462
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 7: so they wanted to bring the case. But now they're

463
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 7: in a position where it's this philosophical issue of is

464
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 7: it coercion to say I'm not going to pay for

465
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,720
Speaker 7: your house unless you do a freak off, which is

466
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 7: pretty much what Jane was told. That's beyond the there

467
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 7: was one. There was an evening of violence, and I'm

468
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 7: not but as she said, they're trying. They're very much

469
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 7: focused on the economic threat, but at a very high level. Right,

470
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,159
Speaker 7: If somebody is impoverished and you say I'm going to

471
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 7: cut you off and throw you in the street if

472
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 7: you don't turn trick, that's coercion. If someone's living in

473
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 7: a gated community and has is getting five thousand dollars

474
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,879
Speaker 7: a month in child support and you say, if you

475
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 7: don't perform it, you got to move out of the house,

476
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:39,679
Speaker 7: is the jury going to find that coercion.

477
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 5: Listen, we are not done talking about Diddy and Matthew Russell.

478
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,200
Speaker 5: Lee will be back and we have much more coming up.

479
00:23:46,359 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 5: Keep it here a true crime Tonight, we have a

480
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 5: very special guest. Matthew Russell is here also from Inner

481
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 5: City Press. He's been in the courtroom in the.

482
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 2: Diddy trial, literally in the beehive, reporting and doing such

483
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 2: great journalism. Thank you for being with us, Matthew, because

484
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,439
Speaker 2: we have some top line questions and we know we

485
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 2: have you on borrow time. Here's the biggest question. No,

486
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 2: we're all divided about it. It's one loaded question. Where

487
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 2: are the celebrities, where is KK the chief of staff?

488
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 2: And why is there no defense witnesses being called? Is

489
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 2: that strategy or just confidence?

490
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 7: Yeah? No, that is exactly I mean. I think it's weird.

491
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 7: It's not unheard of for a defense to say to

492
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 7: basically just put in exhibits as they did today. It's

493
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 7: not unheard of. They had said, of course, at the

494
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 7: beginning they might have a two week I remember Mark

495
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 7: at Nicholer Day to be as long as two weeks,

496
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 7: and then exactly they had a long list. Then they

497
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 7: said it would be two weeks. I certainly expected them

498
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 7: to have a psychological expert. I think they may end

499
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 7: up regretting not having that, because so much of this

500
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 7: turn on what the jury, What the jurors are going

501
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 7: to think about coercion? I think what I think. The

502
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 7: reason they didn't do it, by the way, is that

503
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 7: the judge very much limited the government's psychological witnesses. A

504
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 7: woman called don Hughes, she wanted to talk about coercion

505
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 7: and was basically not allowed, so she did a much

506
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 7: shorter There was a there was another case here was

507
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 7: the Kevin Spacey civil case where he was accused of

508
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 7: sexual assault on a on a young male actor, and

509
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 7: in that case, half the case were the dueling experts

510
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 7: because it was all about knowing and knowing consent. So

511
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,479
Speaker 7: I think judges are different. Basically, Judge sub Romanian decided

512
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 7: in this case that there were enough facts that to

513
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 7: not have a turn on whose expert you know, was

514
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,360
Speaker 7: more compelling. So I agree it was surprising, But as

515
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 7: it got closer, I sort of realized and again, this

516
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 7: is this they think. These are very experienced defense lawyers.

517
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 7: Who knows that they all agree internally. I mean in

518
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 7: terms of the ones who came up from Atlanta, I

519
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 7: thought did a great job. And I don't know if

520
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,719
Speaker 7: they're having the same input. This is the way they

521
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 7: decided to do it, I could, you know. I think

522
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 7: that they think that they they've they've they've laid, if

523
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 7: not jury winning issues, appellet issues. The thing is that

524
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 7: appeals take a long time, and and even if you've

525
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 7: got one charge somehow reversed and sent back for retrial,

526
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 7: he's still going to be in jail, Like I see,

527
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 7: no if he's even convicted of one of five charges,

528
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 7: He's not going to be like released pending sentencing. He's

529
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 7: in jail, you know what I mean.

530
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 3: So it's just, yeah, well, he's a massive risk.

531
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 7: I've never seen somebody. I've never seen someone in detention

532
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 7: being convicted of anything and getting out pending sentencing. If

533
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 7: he were out, you could argue, let me stay out

534
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 7: pending my sentencing. And sometimes you can even say let

535
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,479
Speaker 7: me stay out pending appeal. There was a guy here

536
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 7: in a white collar case that stayed out for four

537
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 7: years and then got a pardon from President Trump, which

538
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 7: I know we've talked about last time. I don't want

539
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 7: to get it. Stir that one up.

540
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 2: Because it could be an outlier. Is that the ultimate

541
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 2: hump card?

542
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 3: Right like that?

543
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 2: You know, pun intended because listen, is he feeling confident?

544
00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not going to call any witnesses. Why

545
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 2: open Pandora's box and maybe I'll get a part in.

546
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, there was in terms of the celebrities, I do

547
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 7: the one thing I wanted to point out, I agree

548
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 7: it wasn't. I think people had this perception there was

549
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 7: a whole side of Diddy's life, which were these garish

550
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 7: parties in the Hamptons and like we've heard almost nothing

551
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,719
Speaker 7: about that. I think both sides agreed that that for

552
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 7: some reason, I mean, I could see why the prosecution

553
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 7: wouldn't want to go there. I'm surprised that the defense.

554
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 7: It seems to me they might have wanted to go

555
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 7: there in the sense of just trying to confuse the

556
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 7: case and say, you know, he was a very high

557
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 7: profile person. Look who came to his parties, you know,

558
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,959
Speaker 7: I mean, there were some high elected officials, for example,

559
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 7: went to these things. I think, as it turns out,

560
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 7: these devious, not devious, these terribly violent, sick things that

561
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 7: he did, they were not taking place upstairs in the Hamptons,

562
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 7: you know. I think it seems like these freak offs

563
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 7: were very much organized by his staff in Miami, Los

564
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 7: Angeles and hotels in New York, and they very much

565
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 7: involved a certain you know, a stable of about six

566
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 7: male escorts, at least the ones that we've heard about,

567
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 7: and you know, and Jane and Cassie. The weird thing

568
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 7: is that there was late in the trial there was

569
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 7: another name, Chelsea was thrown out there. I'm not trying

570
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 7: to out anybody that this is the name that was said.

571
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 7: It turns out that there are other of Combes's girlfriends

572
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 7: that may have been at least in part brought into

573
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 7: this world. And it seems in at least one case,

574
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 7: he was juggling two possible freak outs at the same time,

575
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 7: sort of like and his staff was saying, like, Okay,

576
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 7: we have to get one into a different hotel and

577
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 7: not let one.

578
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: And it wasn't.

579
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 7: In most of these things. It was like Jane being

580
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 7: and I don't mean to it's terrible, but you know,

581
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 7: feeling jealous that he was had public relationships with rapper

582
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 7: Young Miami in a hotel room. Yeah. But it turns

583
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 7: out there was also competition, it seems, among freak off

584
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 7: I think that the government somehow decided to they could

585
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 7: have gone much bigger with the case, and this is

586
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 7: the way they chose to do it. If they win,

587
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 7: then they're the smart ones, you know. And and if

588
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 7: they don't, then they have only themselves to blame, because

589
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 7: there there definitely are more victims out there, and in fact,

590
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 7: there's a dozen civil cases more just here in the

591
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 7: Southern District of half of them are male of people

592
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 7: saying parties, yeah, and we're drugged and we're given you know,

593
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 7: drugs and we're assaulted, you know, violently assaulted and woke up,

594
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 7: you know, bleeding, And I don't know if if that's

595
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 7: true or not. And the cases are all at an

596
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 7: early stage, but I feel like there's a whole other

597
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 7: part of ditty that's not on trial. In this case,

598
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 7: they've really sculptured. This is a case about freak offs,

599
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 7: about about using his business enterprise to to to you know,

600
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 7: bring about these weird performances that that were terrible and

601
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 7: that really it's hard to say they were consensual, but

602
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 7: they're saying that they were, and they have some text

603
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 7: messages that make them look that way.

604
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 5: This thing is going to be unfolding for a long

605
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 5: time after this trial. You're the bad so good Matthew came.

606
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 7: I mean, it's fun. I like to do it this way.

607
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 7: I like to like really get like like in terms

608
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 7: in in actually like live tweeting it. It's made me

609
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 7: really focus a lot more. I see. I know other

610
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 7: people that are covering it, and there are times where

611
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 7: they'll be like, uh, you know, it's really dragging. I'm

612
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 7: going to step out. And I'm not putting them down.

613
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 7: I'm saying like I for some reason since I started

614
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 7: doing it this way. Like if I step out, people

615
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 7: are like, what's going on? Why? I get pushed back like.

616
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 3: Well, what you're doing is like.

617
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 7: Super employed during the defense. You know, it's crazy.

618
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 4: So many people rely on what you're tweeting, So it's

619
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 4: super important that you're doing and I'm really glad that

620
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:36,959
Speaker 4: you're doing it.

621
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, I don't do it.

622
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: I don't love that.

623
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 7: I don't have to do it for every trial, but

624
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 7: for this, it's so appreciated it. And I did do

625
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 7: it for Gleaine Maxwell. That's one thing I wanted to

626
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 7: I wanted to compare it to if you don't mind,

627
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 7: is that there was a big trial here. It was

628
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 7: after Epstein, you know, was dead. I'm not I don't

629
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 7: know how to carry whatever. I won't characterize the event,

630
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 7: but after he was reported dead, Gallaine Maxwell was put

631
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 7: on trial. And in a way it was similar in

632
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 7: this sense that the victims, many of them later went

633
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 7: on to become models. They weren't. This wasn't like you know,

634
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,479
Speaker 7: uh uh, you know, impoverished immigrants from you know, the

635
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 7: Baltic States or Southeast Asia being turned into prostitutes. It was,

636
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 7: but it wasn't it still wasn't this. I think that

637
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 7: what she was convicted and I think honestly a large

638
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 7: part of it to the jury was this this evidence

639
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 7: that he she on behalf of Epstein targeted kind of

640
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 7: white generally, I have to say, white working class, pretty

641
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 7: teenage girls in Florida and and and and ruined their lives.

642
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 7: It felt much more like a victor. It felt because

643
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 7: of the age and because of the sort of like

644
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 7: socioeconomic imbalance. It looked a lot more coercive than this

645
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 7: does now had a lot of money. But yeah, no

646
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 7: one is saying that Cassie or Jay or Jane were poor, right,

647
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 7: and I don't think that they Maybe they couldn't, but

648
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 7: they didn't go the prosecution didn't didn't go into their

649
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 7: backgrounds to say this is why they were susceptible to this,

650
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 7: do you see what I mean?

651
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 2: And what about the fact that they couldn't get out?

652
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 2: So like another key difference between Epstein. I'm so glad

653
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: we're talking about this, by the way, and Keylane Max

654
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 2: was my favorite topic. I definitely nineteen more years with you.

655
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 6: You know.

656
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 2: The big difference also is the idea that they were

657
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: being videotaped or filmed or recorded nineteen eighty five the

658
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: way I say videotaped, but like the fact that they

659
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 2: were is video or film of them, and they didn't

660
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 2: really want that to be exposed to the world, and

661
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: that was being used as revenge porn. Similarly, in Epstein's case,

662
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: you know, allegedly there's you know, people were being recorded

663
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 2: and maybe that was being used as you know, collateral damage.

664
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 3: Is that accurate for you?

665
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 5: I think it's.

666
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 7: I mean, I think the I think the reason the

667
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 7: Epstein thing has given rise to probably more conspiracies than

668
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 7: this case is I don't think he was necessarily filming

669
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,719
Speaker 7: it to blackmail the women as so much. The idea

670
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 7: is that he was providing a sort of like you know,

671
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 7: prostitution service to extremely powerful men and has proved right.

672
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 7: There was a guy that was huge in Barkleys that

673
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 7: they he's lost his job Jess Staley, all kinds of

674
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 7: litigation around it, and so the idea and there's you know,

675
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 7: they always talk about massage. I won't go down this hole,

676
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 7: but I think that the filming here, he don't I mean,

677
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 7: I want you to go down. In the sense of

678
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 7: comb I don't know if Combs was filming in the

679
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 7: first instance, just to to have have h you know,

680
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 7: extortion material over the two women. I think they were themselves.

681
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 7: That's what the defense tried to show. They were filming

682
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 7: this so that on a you know, on a on

683
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 7: a rainy night, they could use it to do. They

684
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 7: had something called when they said movie night. When they

685
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 7: said when when when the movie night didn't mean like

686
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 7: watching It's a Wonderful life. They meant watching previous porn

687
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 7: that they themselves had produced.

688
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 3: Right, But also but it didn't didn't he say he

689
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 3: was going to send it to his.

690
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 7: Mom, her mom, And that's going to be a big

691
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 7: thing that I'm just saying, there was enough if you

692
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 7: really followed the thing over the whole four weeks. I'm

693
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 7: not saying he didn't have in the back of his

694
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 7: mind when he filmed it. He did. It was coming

695
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 7: back from from the south of France. They were sitting

696
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 7: next to each other on the plane and he said,

697
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 7: I'm going to release this video and destroy your life.

698
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 7: And then when he thought that Cassie had left him

699
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 7: for Kid Cuddy, he said, I'm going to I'm going

700
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 7: to release the tape. There's no question that you used

701
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,399
Speaker 7: it for extortion. So I'm not trying to say that

702
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 7: that didn't happen. I'm just saying that there's more. I

703
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 7: guess I'm saying it seems like in the case of Epstein,

704
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 7: the allegation is that he filmed these things to get

705
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 7: blackmail material against powerful, poutful Saudi princes, and in that

706
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 7: Sean Combs was just it's a different era too, right,

707
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 7: So I don't know how many people film themselves in

708
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 7: the bedroom, but they seem to like they were just

709
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 7: using an iPhone. It's much easier to film. You don't

710
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 7: have to have a surreptitious camera system. They just set

711
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 7: it up. They were constantly finding there's a There was

712
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 7: one instance in the trial where one of the staff

713
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 7: members that testified found an iPad which he thought was

714
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 7: like music, you know, mus editing software, opened it up

715
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 7: and found a video of in this fat being with

716
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 7: another man and Combs watching, and he brought it to

717
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 7: Combs and said, you know, maybe this is not supposed

718
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 7: to be out there, And he later got grilled by

719
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 7: Christina kuram, did you well, how did you find it?

720
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 7: Have you given it to anyone else? Because Combs didn't

721
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 7: want these things to go out because he would be

722
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 7: extorted for money.

723
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 5: You are the best, Like Stepanie said, we could have

724
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 5: you for nineteen hours. Thank you so much for joining us.

725
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 5: You're so insightful. Everyone. Please follow Matthew on x at

726
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 5: Inner City Press get all the latest in the trial

727
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 5: against Sean Diddy Combs. Also his book Did He Do

728
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 5: It Us Versus Sean Combs available on Amazon. Also his

729
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 5: book on Galaine Maxwell Maximum Maxwell.

730
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 3: This is my thing.

731
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 4: I think the defense, even though they're not bringing on

732
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 4: any witnesses and one that I think they ended, I

733
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 4: think they went out with a bang.

734
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 3: And the reason I think that is.

735
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 4: Because the text messages from Diddy to Jane when Diddy

736
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 4: says I don't KK can't know. I think that's super

737
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 4: powerful because if I'm a juror, right, I'm going to

738
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 4: be like, KK is very important.

739
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 3: Why didn't the prosecution bring her on?

740
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 4: And then I see this text message and I'm going

741
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 4: to be like, that's why they didn't bring her on

742
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 4: because Diddy didn't involve KK in this.

743
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 3: There is no enterprise and that's why I'm hearing.

744
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 2: So KK is Sean ditty Comb's chief of staff, Christina Korum.

745
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 2: She's been cited in several of the civil lawsuits and

746
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 2: has come up several times in testimony during this trial.

747
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 2: And people have been curious where the big dogs are,

748
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 2: where the celebrities? Where are the big dogs? KK being

749
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 2: at the center of that. And what you're referring to

750
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 2: is this text exchange where it sort of absolves KK

751
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 2: because he, you know, Diddy himself is saying she shouldn't know.

752
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 4: She can't know about this, right, So that's basically hiding

753
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 4: all this nefarious, you know, activity of these freak offs

754
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 4: and whatnot. So if I'm a juror, I'm going to

755
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 4: be like, well, that's why the prosecution didn't bring KK

756
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 4: on because there is no enterprise, and if they brought

757
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 4: her on, she wouldn't be able to add anything of

758
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 4: value to the case. Kind of like, as a that's

759
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 4: what I'm going to be like, Okay, you know, like

760
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,439
Speaker 4: maybe there's something there. Maybe there's no enterprise and there's

761
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 4: no rico. That's what I'm thinking.

762
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 3: Courtney Armstrong, what would you like to say, Well, I think.

763
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 5: The defense didn't you know, didn't bring her on because

764
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 5: of what could have happened in cross Here's deal. I

765
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 5: think there's no universe in which KK did not have

766
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 5: a ton of knowledge. Of course, so I think that

767
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 5: is as a matter of fact in my mind. But

768
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 5: to your point, body, what was proven in court was right, Yeah,

769
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 5: there is no enterprise, keep her out of it. And

770
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 5: if that is the last thing, then the prosecution did

771
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 5: the job for the defense.

772
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 3: One hundred persons.

773
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,439
Speaker 4: That's and listen, I'm not saying that there was there

774
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 4: wasn't an enterprise. I'm just saying, as a juror member,

775
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 4: where I'm gettingly.

776
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 9: Allowed, this is like taking on facts right right, And

777
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 9: I'm just going to ask, because we have we ever

778
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 9: sent a text if taken out of context, oh my god,

779
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 9: out of a several years period, does that count? So

780
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 9: KK was told to not know about something in this

781
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 9: one particular text exchange, you know of it required a

782
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 9: summary witness to summarize all of the texts between KK,

783
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 9: Christina Korum, and Diddy and his staffers. And we also

784
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 9: have heard an other testimony that you know, they were

785
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,879
Speaker 9: back and forth the assistance and including with KK kind

786
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,240
Speaker 9: of being like you know what is happening here right now?

787
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 9: Like there was some knowledge of nefarious behavior. I guess

788
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 9: the larger question is who was organizing that and who

789
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 9: was paying for that? And I guess that's what makes

790
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 9: it an enterprise.

791
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 3: I'm so confused.

792
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,399
Speaker 2: So listen, I guess there's so much more to unpack here.

793
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,479
Speaker 2: Make sure you stay with us. We'll be right back.

794
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 2: This is true crime tonight. We're talking true crime all

795
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 2: the time, obviously, even talking a ton about Diddy. It's

796
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:16,959
Speaker 2: looking like his defense is ready to not bring any

797
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 2: defense witnesses to the table and that we're going to

798
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 2: rest and there may be a verdict as soon as

799
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 2: Friday or top of next week. So we're in the

800
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,280
Speaker 2: final countdown of that. Also, Travis Decker, the man accused

801
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 2: of killing his three children, remains at large, and for

802
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: the first time, his wife ex wife is speaking out

803
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 2: in its heart wrenching We'll get to that very quickly, Courtney.

804
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 2: You want to take us through a little bit. What's

805
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 2: happening in this Travis Decker case.

806
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's so much tragedy. So Travis Decker, there has

807
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 5: been a massive man hunt. He is thought to have

808
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 5: murdered his three young children, and as Stephanie mentioned, his

809
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 5: ex wife just and the mother of the children just

810
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 5: spoke out. This was when she was addressing a crowd

811
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 5: at their memorial in Wnachi, Washington, and in her discussion,

812
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 5: she mentioned that her daughter's Petln nine, Evelyn eight, Olivia five,

813
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 5: that all of them were in therapy. They were learning

814
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 5: to discuss their feelings openly because their parents were getting

815
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 5: a divorce. What wonderful parenting on her part, A beautiful

816
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 5: and Whitney. The mom said, I'm so thankful for that

817
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 5: time that I had with the girls. I truly hope

818
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 5: that the legacy of the girl's lives lives on in

819
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 5: everyone's heart forever. They were incredible, So that's something for

820
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 5: us to all just ingest for a moment that this

821
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 5: mother put out there.

822
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 3: I watched this video and it was so heart wrenching.

823
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 3: It's too much. It's too heart wrenching. I mean it

824
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,280
Speaker 3: really was. I had to do it in small doses.

825
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:56,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is just we all feel for this woman

826
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 5: and these girls. There's been a little bit of change,

827
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 5: seems in the feeling of the authorities running the manhunt,

828
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 5: and someone from the Sheriff's office they said, and I'll

829
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 5: actually read this because they said it succinctly. At this time,

830
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 5: there's no certain evidence that Decker remains alive or in

831
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 5: this area. Yeah, seemingly strong early leads gave way to

832
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 5: less convincing proofs over the last two weeks of searching.

833
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 5: And they went on to say that they will continue searching.

834
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 5: Decker does remain a danger to the public, and they

835
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 5: mentioned that they will keep on the search for Peitlin, Evelyn,

836
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 5: and Olivia Decker. But that's a change, guys, that's.

837
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 2: A big change, even just from this week, because he

838
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 2: went into the woods, you know, really unprepared. We know

839
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 2: that he was not he didn't have his medication, and

840
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 2: you know, there was some question as to whether or

841
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 2: not he was being aided by locals in the blood.

842
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 3: There was that blood on the trunk.

843
00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 2: So I wonder why they're making this public state because

844
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 2: I mean, seriously, if you live in the area, until

845
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 2: this man is found, it still remains a dangerous situation.

846
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: Either they maybe know a ton of information or or

847
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 2: maybe they're not showing their hand.

848
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 3: Maybe.

849
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 5: I mean, we'll see how it plays out. Unfortunately.

850
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 2: I can speak for all of us here though, and

851
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,720
Speaker 2: anybody who's you know, joining us tonight, that our hearts

852
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 2: are deeply with that beautiful poor mother and her kids.

853
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know where you put that, so ye,

854
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 2: we could all just send some prayers and thoughts.

855
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 5: Absolutely.

856
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 4: Uh.

857
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 5: Daniel Park he's the man who was charged with aiding

858
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 5: the Palm Springs fertility clinic bombing. So he's he's been

859
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 5: behind bard and bars and he died in federal custody.

860
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 5: That just happened this morning.

861
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 4: That's not society guy they said.

862
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 5: They haven't said, but we know that he Yeah, he

863
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 5: died in custody and his cause of death has not

864
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 5: been made clear.

865
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 4: So I think that's what makes us in fact, next

866
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 4: time we talked to Joseph Scott Morgan, I want to

867
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 4: talk to him about that.

868
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 3: Hmm.

869
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 5: Absolutely. So that's just something and it evolved me.

870
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 4: He's a fairly young guy. He's a fairly young guy,

871
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 4: so I don't it's not like old age or anything, you.

872
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 3: Know, No, he was.

873
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 5: He was a young guy. So that's something we'll be

874
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 5: keeping our eye on and see what goes. Because body,

875
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 5: I agree with your assessment. The Minnesota shooter, Vance Bolter,

876
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 5: he is the man who murdered politicians in Minnesota and

877
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 5: tried to do so for other politicians. So it just

878
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 5: came out that he had sent we knew that he

879
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:51,280
Speaker 5: sent texts to his this family group. A text and

880
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 5: he said that dad went to war last night. I

881
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 5: don't want to say more because I don't want to

882
00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 5: implicate anybody. Well, the police later found his wife in

883
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 5: a car with her children, and she was there with

884
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 5: two handguns, ten thousand dollars in cash, and passports for

885
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 5: herself and her children.

886
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,760
Speaker 4: There's something going on with this dude. I am sorry.

887
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 4: I am not a conspiracy person, but there is something up.

888
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 3: This guy had all this cat He was like cash flush.

889
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,720
Speaker 4: Yes, his house was paid off, he had seven cars,

890
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 4: he had this other apartment, and he worked on a restaurant.

891
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:30,359
Speaker 3: Like, none of it is adding up to.

892
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,359
Speaker 2: Me, none of what would that infer to you? That

893
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 2: he was maybe he's getting paid by somebody talent, and

894
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 2: that he was making these targets in exchange for financial

895
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 2: gain to set up his family in a way that

896
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 2: maybe as a restaurant worker he would not have been able.

897
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 5: To perhaps, and he was also it seemed like he

898
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 5: was putting together his career, his jobs because he also

899
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 5: worked what for a funeral home?

900
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was transporting I believe for like a funeral home.

901
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 4: He told his friend that he he was removing eyeballs.

902
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 5: Remember this, like, yeah, it's something's going to come out,

903
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 5: because I agree, there's just there's something happening here. And

904
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:13,399
Speaker 5: then Coburger, which Stephanie you had mentioned, Brian Coberger. He

905
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 5: is accused of murdering the four Idaho students in college

906
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 5: and a former jail guard has been called to testify,

907
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 5: and it's a guy, a correctional officer where Coburger was

908
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 5: taken after his arrest at his parents' house in Pennsylvania,

909
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 5: and so he will be testifying for the defense, as

910
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 5: will a guy named Anthony Soma who went to school

911
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 5: with him. So we'll see what that brings. But witnesses

912
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 5: for the defense are coming at us.

913
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 3: That's very good news. And now we have a talk back.

914
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,240
Speaker 4: Obviously, Diddy was friends with a lot of famous people,

915
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 4: and a lot of famous people are really quiet right now,

916
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 4: Well not Kanye, right, Kanye showed up.

917
00:45:57,440 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 2: He was pretty quiet, though, he was quiet, but he

918
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 2: showed up quietly, wearing white. But like other than that,

919
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 2: he left after ten minutes, so there was really not

920
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 2: much of a thing to be said.

921
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 3: But yeah, why is anybody so quiet?

922
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 4: Well, I wouldn't listen if my if I don't care

923
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 4: how close I am, but if my friend is, you know,

924
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 4: getting all these allegations, I don't know that I would,

925
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 4: you know, optically, for my pr I don't know that

926
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,760
Speaker 4: I would be showing up and giving him my support,

927
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 4: especially if I have inside knowledge that he might be guilty.

928
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 2: True, But if you thought, if you had inside knowledge

929
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 2: that maybe he was guilty, wouldn't you want to speak

930
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 2: out and support the victims who are nameless?

931
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 5: That's well, but you know, a guilt by association, you know,

932
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 5: so they could get their hands dirty, so you know,

933
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 5: maybe there's moral struggles they're going through of oh, could

934
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 5: I support this in the same vein on cross examination?

935
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 5: What might happen one night when I had two drinks

936
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 5: too many or whatever? Total speculation on my part, But

937
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 5: you really do open yourself up once you go on

938
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 5: the stand and.

939
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 4: You're now you're on the cover of People magazine. You know,

940
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 4: every text, Stephanie, we're yapping about it forever. Yeah, I mean,

941
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 4: I guess that's maybe Jennifer Lopez, right, she was obviously

942
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 4: one of Diddy's exes. Maybe she had a different experience

943
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 4: and can't really relate to some of.

944
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 3: The testimony that we've heard from other some of the

945
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 3: other women.

946
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, that's it's entirely possible that he's a

947
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 4: totally different person now than he was when they were together.

948
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 5: I mean that's yeah, that's a good point by both

949
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 5: of you. But that think in your lives how that's happened.

950
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 2: I bes though on one thing that excuse me, I

951
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 2: shouldn't have phrased it that way. But you remember did

952
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 2: he has a little bit of a checkered past. Oh

953
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 2: remember he went to Howard University and there was this

954
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 2: stampede thing that happened. I don't know if you guys

955
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 2: are familiar with this story, but oh yeah, they were

956
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 2: selling tickets to this big event. He was a college

957
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 2: student at the time, you know, really you know, excellent university,

958
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 2: and they had over sold this event. Meaning like I'm

959
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,320
Speaker 2: you know, this is paraphrasing. These are not the exact numbers,

960
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 2: but say they were able to hold one hundred people

961
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 2: in a certain auditorium, they oversold it to like five

962
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 2: hundred people, knowingly that they were way out of their league,

963
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 2: and then ultimately when that place got packed, there was

964
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 2: some sort of a stampede. Lives were lost and Diddy

965
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 2: kind of dipped. The assessment was that he was aware

966
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 2: that this was going to happen, and that he was

967
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 2: aware that this was deadly, and that he was aware

968
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 2: that it wasn't going to affect him and life goes.

969
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 4: On, and I think he mayor criticized the mayor criticized

970
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 4: him for allowing like young underlings to like plan and

971
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 4: take care of all this, but he didn't really face

972
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 4: any consequences for it, which is interesting because maybe that's

973
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 4: why they're so confident because that's not the only thing

974
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 4: that in his past where he kind of got away

975
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 4: with something.

976
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: Many times, it seems like potentially for decades. You know,

977
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 2: we know that he's been associated with this. Tupac not

978
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 2: accused of it, of course, but you know, was maybe

979
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,799
Speaker 2: in the in the conversation at least that's being brought up.

980
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 2: So you are, I am, oh, yeah, you think he's

981
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,359
Speaker 2: going to be home with just by Saturday. I want

982
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 2: to go to that trial here we're going to yeah.

983
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: So yeah.

984
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 2: And in case you're just not familiar with this, we

985
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 2: kind of talked about it a bit last night. Is

986
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 2: that Tupac, the you know, acclaimed rapper, was murdered it

987
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 2: and Poet Love was murdered, and you know, the insinuation

988
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,240
Speaker 2: was this East Coast West Coast Rappers thing and Diddy

989
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 2: being on the other side of that allegedly that trial's happening,

990
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 2: and that trial's happening in twenty twenty six, so just

991
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 2: kind of around the bend, and the accusation is that

992
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 2: Ditty was somehow involved or had offered money.

993
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 3: To have that hit done allegedly allegedly allegedly.

994
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,959
Speaker 2: Again, these are just interesting like threads that we're seeing

995
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 2: either not tying up, which I think is really worth discussing,

996
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 2: and also some threads that still might So in this

997
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 2: moment today on Tuesday to twenty fourth, it does not

998
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 2: appear that any of the big name celebrities that have

999
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 2: been touted on these lists included by the defense back

1000
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 2: in the day they said.

1001
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 3: Well, we're going to have a hundred witnesses.

1002
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 2: Those witnesses that are famous and associated with this case,

1003
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 2: or at least with Diddy really have not come forward,

1004
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 2: nor have we seen them, so who knows. Obviously Didy

1005
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 2: watch remains, so we'll be following that very very closely.

1006
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 2: But also this killer Dad allegedly accused of killing his wife.

1007
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 2: After many years, this has gone unsolved. It was Mother's Day,

1008
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 2: she was riding her bicycle and then suddenly the bicycle

1009
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 2: is found, but she is not. And now years later,

1010
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,839
Speaker 2: after a lot of chatter about this, you know, dad

1011
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 2: of two, his children are older now who have stood

1012
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 2: by him this entire time, he's brought and brought into

1013
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 2: custody and that case is going to be an ongoing

1014
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 2: one and guaranteed to be a huge try. Well, you know, Faddy,

1015
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 2: I know you've been following this closely. Do you want

1016
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 2: to fill us in a little bit.

1017
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, so this this case is like kind of complicated,

1018
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 4: so it's probably something that we're going to be talking

1019
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 4: about often. We're just going to give a little bit

1020
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,720
Speaker 4: of backstory to get everybody kind of up to speed

1021
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:18,320
Speaker 4: on where we are today. So Barry Morphew, that is,

1022
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 4: he was married to su Suzanne. He was indicted Friday

1023
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 4: for the second time on June twentieth for the alleged

1024
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 4: murder of her Suzanne. She was just she disappeared on

1025
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 4: Mother's Day in twenty twenty like the height of COVID, right,

1026
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 4: you remember, and yeah, outside I've been Yeah, right after

1027
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 4: going for a bike ride near their home in Mofat, Colorado. Well,

1028
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 4: Barry got arrested in twenty twenty one, so about a

1029
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 4: year later. I think it was almost exactly a year later, actually,

1030
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 4: if I remember correctly, And prosecutors pointed to suspicious text, unusual.

1031
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 3: Behavior, and a little bit of forensic.

1032
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 4: Evidence suggesting Suzanne may have been planning to leave him

1033
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 4: because she was having an a face. She sent him

1034
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 4: a text saying, you know, like we just need to

1035
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 4: end the civilly.

1036
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 3: I'm done.

1037
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 4: I'm being paraphrasing, right, So, but however, the charges were

1038
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 4: dropped another year later, in twenty twenty two, because the

1039
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 4: prosecution recognized they just didn't have enough. And once you

1040
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,399
Speaker 4: prosecute someone, that's it. You don't get a second chance, right, Well,

1041
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 4: Karen Reid, but normally unless there's a mystery.

1042
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 2: You said those two words not bad. Yeah, this was

1043
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:30,800
Speaker 2: the first day I have been Mum's the word, Karen Reids.

1044
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 4: So in September of twenty twenty three, another year later,

1045
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 4: they found her body. And they found her body and

1046
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 4: it was basically skeletal remains that were discovered along with

1047
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 4: new compelling evidence that reignited everything. So the new compelling

1048
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 4: evidence that they found were her bone marrow after the

1049
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 4: autopsy and whatnot. Her bone marrow contained a substance that's

1050
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 4: called BAM and I'm not you can look it up.

1051
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 4: It's it's a lot of fancy medicine words that I

1052
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:08,359
Speaker 4: can't pronounce. And this BAM is basically a cocktail tranquilizer

1053
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 4: that's used on a deer farm to tranquilize deer. And

1054
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 4: the important piece to note here, Barry is the only

1055
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 4: one in that area of Colorado basically that had a

1056
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:26,800
Speaker 4: prescription for BAM. Really yeah, wow, Yeah, So that's basically

1057
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 4: what they were missing. Now, it's also kind of important

1058
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 4: to know that her skeletal remains were found, okay, but

1059
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 4: there were things that made the investigators suspect that she

1060
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 4: didn't she wasn't put there initially. And some of those

1061
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 4: things are her bones were bleached, which means don't be

1062
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 4: like me. It doesn't mean they were actually bleached with chemicals.

1063
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 4: They were sun bleached. So she had exposure to the

1064
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:57,879
Speaker 4: sun for an extended period of time.

1065
00:53:58,120 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 3: Wow.

1066
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 4: Her the clone thing she was dressed in like a

1067
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 4: biking outfit, okay, and the clothing didn't show signs of

1068
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 4: decomp So that's another thing. Another one was that there

1069
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 4: was no bug activity or the lack of bug activity,

1070
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 4: so there weren't like those husks and those cycles of

1071
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 4: maggots that we that we learned from Jess. Yeah, so

1072
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 4: they don't believe that she was was initially placed there.

1073
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 4: They think that she was moved at some point, which

1074
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:32,640
Speaker 4: is frightening.

1075
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 5: If I'm understanding, and if what the prosecution is alleging

1076
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 5: is true, then her husband kept the clothes she was wearing,

1077
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 5: put her somewhere where there was no bug activity, and

1078
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 5: then decided to put these clothes that he'd been storing

1079
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 5: who knows on her now decayed body.

1080
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 3: Well, is that right? Would she?

1081
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 4: Is that?

1082
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 2: Assuming that she he took her. Just to add to

1083
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 2: that courtney, that he put her somewhere indoors and we

1084
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 2: doped her there for a couple of years.

1085
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 4: Well, her bones were bleached, so and that means by

1086
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 4: the sun, right, right, So she was out in the open.

1087
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 4: And that doesn't mean there was no bug activity there.

1088
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 4: It just means there was no bug activity or burial

1089
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 4: site where they found her.

1090
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 3: I understand.

1091
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 5: Oh, so that would have occurred already.

1092
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 4: That would have occurred that her initial resting place, but

1093
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 4: when he moved her, and he could have gone to

1094
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 4: a store and bought a new.

1095
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 3: Outfit to put on her. Oh even weirder, I know,

1096
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 3: and her hair mass was gone too, which is wait,

1097
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 3: what does that mean? I don't know, Like she didn't

1098
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 3: have any hair. Yeah, I thought your hair didn't go away.

1099
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 3: It doesn't. Oh, so she didn't have any hair like

1100
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 3: he cut it off?

1101
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 4: Well, I asked Joseph Scott Morgan this on our show

1102
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 4: on Sunday. I feel slightly and he mentioned, and he

1103
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 4: mentioned that it's possible because she was out in the

1104
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 4: open that birds used it for nesting, so they smoothed.

1105
00:55:57,400 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 3: Down and they pick it up.

1106
00:55:58,760 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 5: Listen.

1107
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,839
Speaker 3: I'm addicted to those balls eagles in in Big Bear,

1108
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 3: so I know they do this too.

1109
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 2: I love that, I know, but not if they're taking

1110
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 2: her beautiful hair with them. I have mixed feelings. Then

1111
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 2: this is like a I'm so curious to hear more,

1112
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 2: but I'm also slightly nauseated. So the idea is that

1113
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 2: her beautiful body was found without her hair, and she

1114
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:22,360
Speaker 2: had been redressed by her wackadoo potentially allegedly allegedly husband

1115
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:25,279
Speaker 2: who was married to her for so many years. They

1116
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 2: shared two beautiful children that are now adults, and they've

1117
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 2: stood by their dad. And he's dressing her after knocking

1118
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 2: her off a bicycle and drugging her with BAM.

1119
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 4: Well, I don't think she actually went on the spike ride.

1120
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 3: He think he was faking the bike ride.

1121
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, the bike ride is completely made up, either

1122
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 4: allegedly allegedly allegedly.

1123
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 3: Really, this is like a full time job, Barry. So

1124
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 3: he may be drug he posed he staged.

1125
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 4: Evidence shows that that she was because the BAM, which

1126
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:00,800
Speaker 4: is that chemical that tranquilizer in metaboli in her body,

1127
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 4: which means that she had basically in her system for

1128
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 4: quite some time before she was murdered.

1129
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 5: Oh listen, I am really intrigued to see what comes

1130
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 5: out in trial and what evidence is laid out. We

1131
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 5: want to hear from you. Eighty eight three to one Crime.

1132
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 5: Give us a call and we have a talkback right now.

1133
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 8: Hey, this is Caroline. I'm such a big fan of

1134
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:26,439
Speaker 8: the show. I had a question actually about the case

1135
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 8: about the man in Colorado who killed his wife on

1136
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 8: Mother's Day. So you said she was staying in a

1137
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,400
Speaker 8: hotel away for work, and she was killed on a

1138
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 8: bike ride. So is he lying about where he was

1139
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 8: or was he following her for a while, Like I

1140
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 8: guess I'm confused on maybe the timeline of that.

1141
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 4: If you guys have any insight, it is confusing. Caroline,

1142
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 4: thank you for that, yeah, and thank you for the talkback.

1143
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 4: It is confusing. So there's no evidence that she actually

1144
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 4: went on a bike ride. In fact, if you read

1145
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 4: the grand jury indictment, which I've read ad nauseum a

1146
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 4: million times because I'm.

1147
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 2: Obsessed with it, like it's horrible, but that racks because

1148
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 2: that's why you're so good. You well do notice every

1149
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 2: detail and take the time I try. It's really important.

1150
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 4: Thank you so it in this indictment it said, God,

1151
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 4: now I forgot what I was gonna say, because it

1152
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 4: was important I had to do.

1153
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 5: With the bike. It was clarification for the bike ride,

1154
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:21,600
Speaker 5: and thank you, thank you so.

1155
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 4: In the indictment it said that they believe she was

1156
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 4: killed at home because the location of her phone along

1157
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 4: with his phone and when it was turned off, like

1158
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 4: it was connected to a certain tower at the home. Additionally,

1159
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,439
Speaker 4: they found the cap for the syringe that he would

1160
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 4: have stuck her with in the dryer. I took the

1161
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 4: dryer apart. You guys, they they dismantled the dryer. I

1162
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 4: don't know how they was. Yes, this guy, remember there

1163
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 4: was no bike ride. There was no bike ride. But

1164
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 4: he did go to a hotel for work. But the

1165
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 4: time that he was there didn't really match with this job.

1166
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 3: It's a lot.

1167
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 4: Listen, there's a lot to unpack, and we're going to

1168
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 4: throughout you know, the next the next couple of weeks,

1169
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 4: like for sure, because there's so much and I have

1170
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 4: a whole timeline I can go over, you know. I mean,

1171
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 4: I have a whole spreadsheet on this case.

1172
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:21,480
Speaker 3: We haven't going to do a whole night on this.

1173
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, So I'm understanding it because I do remember

1174
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 2: when he was first arrested about a year to your point,

1175
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one. I remember that, Yeah, and I

1176
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:33,680
Speaker 2: remember his daughters really standing by him. They seemed lovely

1177
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 2: beyond you know, he seemed like, I don't know, based

1178
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 2: on nothing on the news.

1179
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 3: You know, I was like, there's no way he did that.

1180
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 3: You know, this guy's he's grieving.

1181
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:46,760
Speaker 4: Well in it that released and so basically what they

1182
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 4: thought or what you know, Barry and the kids were like,

1183
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 4: presenting was that, you know, Susanne was having an affair,

1184
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 4: and she was, she had rekindled a relationship with like

1185
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 4: an old high school sweetheart, but he lived out of state.

1186
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 4: And the idea was that she basically went on this

1187
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 4: bike ride but really wasn't going on a bike ride

1188
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 4: and went and ran off with this guy.

1189
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 2: Right.

1190
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 4: That was basically what they were thinking, well what they

1191
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 4: were presenting to the press and the police. Right. But

1192
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 4: of course this guy is like, what do you mean, No, Like,

1193
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 4: I haven't talked to her in three weeks. She's ghosted me,

1194
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 4: you know, Like yeah, so it's very there's a lot.

1195
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 5: Do we know if his children have spoken out since

1196
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 5: the arrest. I haven't seen.

1197
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:35,200
Speaker 4: I know, not that I don't listen, I mean, and

1198
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 4: I don't expect them to. This has got to be

1199
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 4: especially this bam evidence, right, because he's the only one

1200
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:44,959
Speaker 4: with access to this cocktail in like in this area

1201
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 4: of Colorado. He's the only one with this prescription and

1202
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 4: he's had it since twenty eighteen because he had this

1203
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 4: deer farm in it like Indiana, and he stocked up

1204
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 4: on it when they moved to Colorado, and he's the

1205
01:00:56,480 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 4: only one like with a licensed slash prescription. You have

1206
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 4: this medication and they found it in her bone marrow.

1207
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 4: Now this is medication too.

1208
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 3: It's important to know. This is horrific and it's not

1209
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:08,920
Speaker 3: meant for humans. By the way.

1210
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 4: Okay, so there's no been, no studies on humans. But

1211
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 4: it's my understanding and reading about it as much as

1212
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 4: I possibly can, that you are kind of conscious. Now

1213
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 4: you're tranquilized, but you're you're conscious.

1214
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, throw away the key, away the key.

1215
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:30,080
Speaker 5: Well, listen. Coming up next, it's Pride month and we

1216
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 5: are highlighting a story not just important to us, but

1217
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 5: important to the entire LGBTQ community. It is the twenty

1218
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 5: one year old college student Matthew Shepherd pivotally important. Give

1219
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 5: us a call eight eight eight three to one crime.

1220
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:46,840
Speaker 5: We want your thoughts, keep you your true crimes tonight.

1221
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 3: I'm feeling a little mad about this very or few case.

1222
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 3: Thank you for that.

1223
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's made me angry. I don't know that I

1224
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:09,000
Speaker 2: knew that much detail, So thank you for unpacking that.

1225
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 2: And I definitely want us to keep covering that.

1226
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 3: H It's terrible. It's just a terrible tale. We actually

1227
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 3: have a talk back, and here we go.

1228
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:21,520
Speaker 10: That's just Kim and the thought that I've had a

1229
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:24,919
Speaker 10: few times regarding the Karen Reid case. If the one

1230
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 10: coup left to go to work at one thirty, where

1231
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 10: was his car and where was John at the time,

1232
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 10: I'm very confused.

1233
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:36,600
Speaker 2: Well, well, well, isn't that a great question? A little

1234
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 2: throwback to our Karen Reid posts. The verdict if you

1235
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 2: haven't been following along as many of us have, Karen

1236
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 2: Reid was found not.

1237
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 3: Guilty of two of the three charges that she was

1238
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 3: accused of.

1239
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:52,439
Speaker 2: She was accused of killing her boyfriend, maybe accidentally, after

1240
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:56,040
Speaker 2: a long day of drinking, running him over with her

1241
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 2: lexus on a very stormy night. But she's now been

1242
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:04,560
Speaker 2: in released and those charges are no longer a thing. Yeah,

1243
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:06,840
Speaker 2: I throw it to you, guys, because I have a

1244
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 2: stinking suspicion. You know what my opinion is on this?

1245
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:10,959
Speaker 2: What do you think that means?

1246
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:15,120
Speaker 5: I think it makes no sense. Nobody's doing their paperwork

1247
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 5: at the office at one thirty after a night of drinking.

1248
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 5: That is insanity, by the way, So it's in the

1249
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 5: wee morning, thirty in the wee morning. But the question

1250
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:30,720
Speaker 5: is so interesting because if what the prosecution says is true,

1251
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 5: then John o'keef, the victim in all of this, would

1252
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 5: have been lying right at the end of the driveway

1253
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 5: of the house, and therefore the officer would have what

1254
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:45,600
Speaker 5: stepped over it. Again, if what the prosecution allegens is true.

1255
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:48,720
Speaker 4: His body is at the flagpole, wasn't it. It wasn't

1256
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:50,120
Speaker 4: at the end of the driveway.

1257
01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 2: With the flag poles pretty much at the end of

1258
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:54,479
Speaker 2: the driveway or pretty close to the driveway. I haven't

1259
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:58,120
Speaker 2: physically been there, so I hope I'm not saying that incorrectly, Like.

1260
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 3: Could you just miss him because he was maybe married

1261
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:01,800
Speaker 3: in or snow?

1262
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 4: It's I mean, if if it's one thirty when he

1263
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:07,080
Speaker 4: left the house and I don't know that it is,

1264
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:09,960
Speaker 4: but you know, is it possible that snow was covering

1265
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 4: I mean, it was snowing pretty hard.

1266
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 3: It was a blizzard. I mean, it really was. But

1267
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 3: how could he not see him?

1268
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:20,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, Ryan Higgins, I mean, the guy is an officer

1269
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 5: and would know how to look for or notice that somebody.

1270
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:29,120
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I don't know that he would

1271
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:31,760
Speaker 4: have been like where's John. I mean, as far as

1272
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 4: they knew at the party. Let's call it that at

1273
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:36,440
Speaker 4: the party, Karen and John just didn't show up.

1274
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 5: That's fair. And I guess we'll actually never know if

1275
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 5: he was wondering about that that night, because there's no

1276
01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:42,600
Speaker 5: cell phone.

1277
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:44,400
Speaker 3: I mean, anybody ask him that in trial?

1278
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:48,640
Speaker 4: Do you guys know? Like, wouldn't one wouldn't the defense

1279
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:51,600
Speaker 4: ask him that, Like, Hey, you left to go to

1280
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:54,240
Speaker 4: work at one thirty? How come you didn't see John

1281
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:56,160
Speaker 4: out there? If Karen Reid hit him with her car

1282
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 4: at twelve twenty four or whatever whatever.

1283
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:01,200
Speaker 3: Time it was, And why did you get ready your phone? Yeah?

1284
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 4: And why did you go to work after drinking all day? Right?

1285
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:06,360
Speaker 3: It was clerical work too. It wasn't as though he

1286
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 3: had a shift or something.

1287
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 2: It was like administrative paperwork that he decided to get

1288
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 2: ahead of at one thirty in the morning, allegedly. We

1289
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 2: also don't know where he is, nor has he done

1290
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 2: any of the post Karen read Verdict press.

1291
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 3: He's disappeared.

1292
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:24,000
Speaker 2: Most people have done press, every one of them that

1293
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 2: was in that house or at that after party. Not

1294
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 2: all of them, but the heavy hitters have spoken out,

1295
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 2: the Alberts who were the homeowners, you know, Proctor who

1296
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:36,960
Speaker 2: was the initial trooper who covered the case and was

1297
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:41,240
Speaker 2: a big witness in the first case, and then was

1298
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 2: you know, fired for his job for his terrible law.

1299
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 3: Enforcement skills at that time.

1300
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:50,760
Speaker 2: But you know, even he has done, you know, an interview,

1301
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 2: but we haven't heard from Higgins in reporting them too.

1302
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, the mccabees too, that's correct.

1303
01:05:56,560 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 5: But Brian, really his suspicion was so I mean, there's

1304
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 5: so many suspicious things with him. You know that he

1305
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:05,960
Speaker 5: went there to move vehicles due to the storm, is

1306
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:08,040
Speaker 5: why he went to the police department at one thirty

1307
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:10,680
Speaker 5: in the morning. Yet he did that inside and is

1308
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 5: on footage seen with what appears to be a cell phone.

1309
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 5: So he's not moving vehicles, he's not doing paperwork. He

1310
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 5: went to retrieve whatever was on that cell phone and

1311
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:23,320
Speaker 5: throw it in a military base in the garbage. That

1312
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 5: is what I think. And I loved that talk back.

1313
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:30,640
Speaker 5: And now body, we want to shift to Matthew Shepherd.

1314
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:33,400
Speaker 5: Such an important story so to talk about.

1315
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 4: I mean, I remember when this happened, so you know,

1316
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:38,720
Speaker 4: I'm old enough to remember when this happened, and it

1317
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:42,840
Speaker 4: was very shocking, even in these times, it was shocking.

1318
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:46,040
Speaker 4: So this happened in nineteen ninety eight and Matthew Shepherd,

1319
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 4: he was a twenty one year old gay University of

1320
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:51,600
Speaker 4: Wyoming student and he was out at a bar and

1321
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:56,920
Speaker 4: he was you know, basically lured into a car and

1322
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 4: was brutally murdered. He was murdered by two men, Aaron

1323
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:04,800
Speaker 4: McKinney and Russell Henderson. They tied him up to a

1324
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:07,320
Speaker 4: fence and beat him severely and left him to die.

1325
01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:11,080
Speaker 4: And Shepherd was temperatures too, yeah, right right, And he

1326
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:14,440
Speaker 4: was found like eighteen or nineteen hours later and was

1327
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:16,920
Speaker 4: taken to the hospital and he succumbed to his injuries

1328
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:21,920
Speaker 4: six days later, and both suspects, Aaron McKinley and Russell

1329
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:25,800
Speaker 4: Henderson were sentenced to life in prison. Shepherd's case drew

1330
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 4: massive national attention, and I think this is one of

1331
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:33,560
Speaker 4: the first cases that I remember a gay person being

1332
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:36,440
Speaker 4: murdered in it being on news every single night. I

1333
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:42,400
Speaker 4: distinctly remember this, and ultimately this led to the Matthew

1334
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:46,280
Speaker 4: Shepherd and James Bird Junior Hate Crimes Prevention Act of

1335
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:50,360
Speaker 4: two thousand and nine, which Obama implemented. The Shepherd Burn

1336
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:54,120
Speaker 4: Hate Crimes Act was a humongous step in the right direction,

1337
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:58,520
Speaker 4: you know, like for protection, but we still have a

1338
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:00,240
Speaker 4: long way to go in this country in the current

1339
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:02,640
Speaker 4: political environment is not favorable, right.

1340
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:06,800
Speaker 2: No, And you know Judy and Dennis, Matthew's parents, you know,

1341
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:10,440
Speaker 2: they became huge advocates after such terrible loss. Remember this

1342
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:14,920
Speaker 2: was a violent crime, yeah, you know, the likes of

1343
01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:18,160
Speaker 2: which you know, we hadn't really seen maybe at the forefront,

1344
01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 2: so you know, to be left there the way he was.

1345
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:21,760
Speaker 3: But yeah, for.

1346
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:25,400
Speaker 4: Eighteen hours, and he was alive, and he was alive,

1347
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:29,000
Speaker 4: and he was severely beaten, and by all accounts, Matthew

1348
01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:32,920
Speaker 4: Shepherd was just a sweet young man, like the sweetest

1349
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:36,000
Speaker 4: young man. I want to mention the other man that

1350
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:39,960
Speaker 4: the act honors, James per Junior. He was a black

1351
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:43,400
Speaker 4: man who was murdered the same year as Matthew Shepherd.

1352
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:46,760
Speaker 4: You often don't hear about him. He was offered a

1353
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:51,000
Speaker 4: ride unknowingly by three white supremacists who then chained them

1354
01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:53,240
Speaker 4: up to a truck and dragged him to his death.

1355
01:08:54,360 --> 01:08:56,320
Speaker 4: Two of his killers were put to death and one

1356
01:08:56,439 --> 01:09:00,280
Speaker 4: was serving life in prison. So it honors both Matthew

1357
01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:04,320
Speaker 4: and James. And you know, I think, listen, no, murderer

1358
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:08,240
Speaker 4: is good, I mean none, and they died horribly. But

1359
01:09:08,360 --> 01:09:11,760
Speaker 4: I think this the Hate the Hate Crimes Prevention Act,

1360
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:14,800
Speaker 4: that is, you know, in their name, basically gives them

1361
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:19,839
Speaker 4: a legacy, you know, which is protecting hopefully, hopefully protecting

1362
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:21,280
Speaker 4: people in the future.

1363
01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:21,760
Speaker 8: Right.

1364
01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:25,880
Speaker 5: And it also it helps with the prosecution of people

1365
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:29,759
Speaker 5: who really need to be prosecuted for these crimes because

1366
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:33,439
Speaker 5: the acts. The Act gives federal authority, which is more

1367
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:36,439
Speaker 5: power to assist and to take over investigation, and more

1368
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:38,400
Speaker 5: manpower and all of the above.

1369
01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 1: Right.

1370
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:40,559
Speaker 3: It's interesting too.

1371
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:47,080
Speaker 4: One of the the convicted killers in the Matthew Shepherd case, McKinney,

1372
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:52,040
Speaker 4: he his defense used a really controversial defense and it's

1373
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:54,400
Speaker 4: called gay panic, and if you don't know what that is,

1374
01:09:54,520 --> 01:09:56,960
Speaker 4: it basically shifts blame to the victim. Right.

1375
01:09:57,120 --> 01:09:58,240
Speaker 3: So basically what he's.

1376
01:09:58,120 --> 01:10:00,360
Speaker 4: Saying is like, Matthew Shepherd was coming up to me,

1377
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:04,599
Speaker 4: I panicked, you know, like it's disgusting using that kind

1378
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:09,280
Speaker 4: of language. And the judge famously, right, was like, no,

1379
01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:10,280
Speaker 4: you don't get to do that.

1380
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:11,880
Speaker 3: You do not get to do that.

1381
01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:14,639
Speaker 2: In fact, if I remember this correctly, those two men

1382
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 2: basically almost pretended that they did so that they kind

1383
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:22,559
Speaker 2: of beframeed word with you, and therefore they lured him

1384
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:26,400
Speaker 2: and knowing full well that they wanted to do unspeakable

1385
01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:29,600
Speaker 2: things to him, right, And I mean, and I'm talking unspeakable.

1386
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:32,679
Speaker 2: This was an amazing twenty one year old student.

1387
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:35,160
Speaker 3: He was a college student. Oh, he was so sweet

1388
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:36,599
Speaker 3: and his family's so lovely.

1389
01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:41,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, there's there's plays and films and

1390
01:10:41,360 --> 01:10:46,080
Speaker 4: books and all kinds of activism surrounding this case. And

1391
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:49,800
Speaker 4: there's really good documentaries about Matthew Shepherd, and you know,

1392
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:53,960
Speaker 4: and additionally too, this kind of sprung up that it's

1393
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:56,880
Speaker 4: just important to talk about the Trevor Project. Yes, right,

1394
01:10:57,080 --> 01:10:59,679
Speaker 4: so I'm familiar with the Trevor Project. It's a twenty

1395
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:03,200
Speaker 4: four our twenty four hours, seven days a week resource

1396
01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:07,360
Speaker 4: for It's a crisis support center for LGBTQ people that

1397
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:10,479
Speaker 4: they can call at any time, specifically youth, right, because

1398
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:12,679
Speaker 4: when you're young and you can't talk to your parents,

1399
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:14,840
Speaker 4: I mean, like especially if you're in the closet, like

1400
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:17,559
Speaker 4: what are you supposed to do? And maybe you're going

1401
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:21,559
Speaker 4: to be rejected? Right, your friends are gonna beat you up.

1402
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:23,920
Speaker 4: Your friends are gonna maybe not want to be your

1403
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:27,120
Speaker 4: friend anymore. And now not only are you feeling maybe

1404
01:11:27,160 --> 01:11:29,720
Speaker 4: a little in crisis and suicidal, but now you've just

1405
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:32,880
Speaker 4: lost your entire friend network and your parents are you know,

1406
01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:35,519
Speaker 4: disappointed in you. Like it's just a really bad place

1407
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:38,640
Speaker 4: for people to be. So if you are listening and

1408
01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:41,479
Speaker 4: you can hear my voice and you're feeling alone, I

1409
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:43,720
Speaker 4: just want you to know that you're not alone, and

1410
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:47,679
Speaker 4: you could call the Trevor Project. I'm sorry, I'm a nightmare.

1411
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:48,280
Speaker 4: I'm so sorry.

1412
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:51,439
Speaker 3: No, it's nice. The opposite of being a nightmare, this is,

1413
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:52,040
Speaker 3: you know.

1414
01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:55,800
Speaker 4: Call the Trevor Project at eight six six six I'm sorry,

1415
01:11:55,880 --> 01:12:01,280
Speaker 4: eight six six four eight eight seven three eighty six.

1416
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:04,080
Speaker 4: And do not be embarrassed to call them. Please call

1417
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:08,799
Speaker 4: them if you're having any kind of, you know, harmful thoughts.

1418
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:12,320
Speaker 4: They're there to help you. They're a wonderful organization. Do

1419
01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:14,880
Speaker 4: not be ashamed. You have nothing to be ashamed about.

1420
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:18,360
Speaker 2: Be shamed, no, exactly. And we'll put that on the

1421
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:21,600
Speaker 2: website too, so you know we have that information in

1422
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:22,160
Speaker 2: one place.

1423
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:24,760
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm it's so listen.

1424
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:28,920
Speaker 5: It's so prevalent, even according to his recent as a

1425
01:12:29,240 --> 01:12:34,200
Speaker 5: twenty twenty one CDC Survey Survey, forty six percent, almost

1426
01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:40,240
Speaker 5: half of LGBTQ plus adults have reported experiencing some kind

1427
01:12:40,240 --> 01:12:43,960
Speaker 5: of discrimination or harassment due to their identity. So to

1428
01:12:44,080 --> 01:12:48,519
Speaker 5: have an act that is protective of that is a

1429
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:51,360
Speaker 5: legacy for Matthew Sugar and I think Shepherd.

1430
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:53,560
Speaker 4: And I think you know, listen, he his life was

1431
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:56,240
Speaker 4: cut way too short. But it's just lovely that there

1432
01:12:56,400 --> 01:12:59,719
Speaker 4: is something to remember him by. And like the Matthew

1433
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:01,880
Speaker 4: shep Foundation, I think is I think is the name

1434
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:04,280
Speaker 4: of it too. They do a lot of outreach as well,

1435
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:06,880
Speaker 4: and you can google that and find them. His mom

1436
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:09,680
Speaker 4: is very involved in it, like his mom and dad

1437
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:12,120
Speaker 4: are so proud of him. Yes as well, they so

1438
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:14,960
Speaker 4: lovely and they're absolutely lovely. But yeah, no, I loved

1439
01:13:15,040 --> 01:13:17,640
Speaker 4: that the Gay Panic Defense got you know, in the

1440
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:19,479
Speaker 4: toilet by the judging very famously.

1441
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:20,559
Speaker 3: It's it's very good.

1442
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:25,519
Speaker 5: One more time. The Trevor Project Crisis Hotline can be

1443
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:29,679
Speaker 5: reached anytime one eight eight eight four eight eight seven

1444
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:31,000
Speaker 5: three eight six.

1445
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:34,040
Speaker 2: I don't know how the time really flew. It's crazy,

1446
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:36,720
Speaker 2: really flew. We actually have a talk back. Let's go

1447
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:37,599
Speaker 2: to that real quick.

1448
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:40,520
Speaker 11: Hey, So I think I was listening to your podcast

1449
01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:45,280
Speaker 11: about the Diddy parties, and I think that when partying

1450
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:49,280
Speaker 11: becomes non consensual, I think that that's where freak off

1451
01:13:49,920 --> 01:13:51,040
Speaker 11: crosses the line.

1452
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:57,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, fair like you have to get consent every

1453
01:13:57,439 --> 01:14:02,840
Speaker 4: single encounter, right, You have to give consent every single encounter,

1454
01:14:03,320 --> 01:14:03,879
Speaker 4: and I don't.

1455
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:05,960
Speaker 2: Might have gotten a little loss in translation with all

1456
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:09,080
Speaker 2: the Bill Maher talk, et cetera. Even if you've consented once,

1457
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:12,080
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, two years later, what do you mean.

1458
01:14:12,720 --> 01:14:15,120
Speaker 2: Bill Maher was like, well, you know it was consensual.

1459
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:17,439
Speaker 2: And you know in the Diddy freak offs, you know

1460
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:22,160
Speaker 2: Jane his ex and ex Cassie Ventura, you know it's

1461
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:23,160
Speaker 2: mixed messages.

1462
01:14:23,840 --> 01:14:24,479
Speaker 7: You know it was.

1463
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:28,439
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's a sentiment.

1464
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:31,680
Speaker 2: It's a sentiment that many people with and I, you know,

1465
01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:33,640
Speaker 2: I just think it's worth the clarity. Again, this is

1466
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:37,200
Speaker 2: my personal opinion only as a woman, But yeah, you

1467
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:39,680
Speaker 2: need consent, and just because you've consented to it the

1468
01:14:39,720 --> 01:14:43,200
Speaker 2: first time doesn't mean fifteen times later makes it okay.

1469
01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:46,200
Speaker 2: Because we know full well based on that testimony, if

1470
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:49,400
Speaker 2: you believe it, that they wanted out, and that is

1471
01:14:49,520 --> 01:14:50,799
Speaker 2: something that should have been respected.

1472
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:52,639
Speaker 3: My two cents, My two cents only.

1473
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:54,960
Speaker 5: But I don't even know should that be called an

1474
01:14:55,040 --> 01:14:58,600
Speaker 5: opinion or just a fact that consent should be a

1475
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:03,600
Speaker 5: baseline for really any interaction whatsoever. Yeah, you know, regardless

1476
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:06,720
Speaker 5: of gender, regardless of gender, right, and even you know,

1477
01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:11,200
Speaker 5: any situation. And actually, for anyone here who's young or old,

1478
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:14,639
Speaker 5: who's listening, and you are in a situation that seemed

1479
01:15:14,760 --> 01:15:19,560
Speaker 5: fun and you quote got yourself into and feel embarrassed,

1480
01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:23,719
Speaker 5: it's okay to get yourself out of it. If things

1481
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:26,600
Speaker 5: feel that you don't want them to continue. You're not

1482
01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:29,800
Speaker 5: at fault for allowing something to get to a certain

1483
01:15:29,840 --> 01:15:33,160
Speaker 5: place and then saying no, that is your right, That

1484
01:15:33,360 --> 01:15:33,920
Speaker 5: is your right.

1485
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:36,680
Speaker 2: But you know, stuff like this that we're seeing in

1486
01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:40,559
Speaker 2: this ditty trial as he potentially gets off. You know, again,

1487
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:43,559
Speaker 2: it's a very mixed time. That's a mixed message.

1488
01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:44,800
Speaker 3: You know, we are hearing.

1489
01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:47,519
Speaker 2: Cassie Ventura specifically said in text that she did not

1490
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:50,360
Speaker 2: feel comfortable doing this anymore, and also Jane said it

1491
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:52,839
Speaker 2: felt very degrading and she wasn't comfortable with it anymore,

1492
01:15:53,200 --> 01:15:55,840
Speaker 2: and she was coerced back to do it or told

1493
01:15:56,320 --> 01:15:59,200
Speaker 2: if she didn't get back in there. You know, there's

1494
01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:02,920
Speaker 2: stuff my released to the press, or there would be

1495
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:05,920
Speaker 2: some sort of repercussions. And we've seen how violent he

1496
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:08,680
Speaker 2: can be. That's a tough spot. And you know that's

1497
01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:09,280
Speaker 2: a tough spot.

1498
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:12,320
Speaker 3: So I don't know. I can't belabor it anymore.

1499
01:16:12,439 --> 01:16:14,960
Speaker 4: But our talk back makes a good point, like the

1500
01:16:15,320 --> 01:16:18,360
Speaker 4: freak offs crossed the line, right, especially in light of

1501
01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:21,000
Speaker 4: the text messages like you said stuff like yeah, what

1502
01:16:21,080 --> 01:16:22,599
Speaker 4: do you think? What do you when do you think

1503
01:16:22,640 --> 01:16:26,880
Speaker 4: the So we think the jury might get the case Monday, right,

1504
01:16:27,400 --> 01:16:31,559
Speaker 4: so Thursday and Friday, according to Inner City Press. Right.

1505
01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:33,920
Speaker 4: He was a guest tonight. Wonderful by the way, he

1506
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:37,920
Speaker 4: was so so good. He said that they probably get

1507
01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:40,040
Speaker 4: it Monday. How long do you think they deliberate? Real quick,

1508
01:16:40,479 --> 01:16:44,000
Speaker 4: real quick? Oh god, h three days, three days, Stephanie,

1509
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:44,599
Speaker 4: that was my day.

1510
01:16:45,200 --> 01:16:45,639
Speaker 5: One day.

1511
01:16:46,920 --> 01:16:49,559
Speaker 3: I say day, I say two days, You say two days.

1512
01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:53,120
Speaker 3: So we're two three okay, all right, smack in the middle.

1513
01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:55,920
Speaker 2: I think one day, but it could be a one

1514
01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:59,639
Speaker 2: day and they just all don't think he has proven

1515
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:01,200
Speaker 2: to be a rocketeur.

1516
01:17:01,640 --> 01:17:03,600
Speaker 4: I think they're going to be able to prove the

1517
01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:06,880
Speaker 4: sex trafficking. I don't know about the rico. I just

1518
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:09,960
Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's possibly Rico, but I don't

1519
01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:11,160
Speaker 4: know that the jury is going to think that.

1520
01:17:11,360 --> 01:17:15,080
Speaker 2: And what's interesting is tomorrow is that sentencing portion of this,

1521
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:18,960
Speaker 2: So you know, the sentencing night will have charging conference exactly,

1522
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:22,800
Speaker 2: will have very interesting intel about what the charges entail

1523
01:17:23,080 --> 01:17:24,719
Speaker 2: and sort of what the judge had to say about

1524
01:17:24,720 --> 01:17:27,920
Speaker 2: that tomorrow, so more on that obviously. And also we

1525
01:17:28,080 --> 01:17:32,160
Speaker 2: have a very special friend of Kat and of ours,

1526
01:17:32,360 --> 01:17:37,400
Speaker 2: journalist Connor Powell, is joining us tomorrow, So big round

1527
01:17:37,439 --> 01:17:40,080
Speaker 2: of applause for that true crime tonight. We'll see you

1528
01:17:40,120 --> 01:17:40,479
Speaker 2: tomorrow