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Speaker 1: Too Much Information is a production of My Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome to Too Much Information, the show

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Speaker 1: that brings you the secret histories and little loan stories

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Speaker 1: behind your favorite movies, music, TV shows and more. We

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Speaker 1: are your boys in the bubble of banality, your human

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Speaker 1: trampolines of trivia spinning in infinity, to which I say,

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Speaker 1: Amen and hallelujah. My name is Jordan Roun Talk but

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Speaker 1: you can call me Betty. I'm not setting you up

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Speaker 1: for this. And I'm and I'm Alex Tigel and you

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Speaker 1: can call him al. No, you can't. Don't do that.

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Speaker 1: I don't like that. That's one of the only nicknames

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Speaker 1: I don't like. I've never called you out. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: good moving on. Yes, I think everybody here knows what

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about. In fact, everybody here knows exactly what

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about. I'm talking about one of the most

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Speaker 1: beloved and controversial albums in history, Paul Simon's master work,

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Speaker 1: Grace Land. It's a free quin entry on all time

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Speaker 1: best album lists, and deservedly so. As far as I'm concerned.

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Speaker 1: It was a success on pretty much every level, artistically, commercially,

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Speaker 1: and culturally. Uh, it's certainly a favorite of mine and

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Speaker 1: Oprah as I understand. The music was unlike anything I'd

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Speaker 1: ever heard before, blending South African rhythms, modalities, and vocals

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Speaker 1: with American dance pop music, plus a little bit of

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Speaker 1: zydeco and Southwestern Mexican sounds for good measure. In an

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Speaker 1: era of overblown pan global musical statements like We Are

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Speaker 1: the World, Grace Land was much more successful at linking

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Speaker 1: cultures through music, even though it caused an international incident

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Speaker 1: in the process that nearly killed Paul Simon on several occasions. HIGL,

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Speaker 1: what do you think of this record? It's amazing. I

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Speaker 1: love this record. I love Paul Simon. I was not

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Speaker 1: supposed to. I'm first and foremost a punk, first and

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Speaker 1: foremost to punk. Uh. You're not supposed to like Paul Simon,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, man, I mean I love Paul Simon. I

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Speaker 1: am as incredible songwriter, world class dick head. Uh, short king, um,

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Speaker 1: A list of reasons go on and on. Incredible guitar player,

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Speaker 1: great singer. Uh he is an underrated guitar player. You're

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Speaker 1: absolutely right, and and vocals too. In his voice. I

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Speaker 1: don't think he's ever sounded better than on this record.

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Speaker 1: I just I, you know, there's all these great isolated

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Speaker 1: vocal isolated takes of this from the box set, and

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Speaker 1: the version of Diamonds on the soles of her shoes

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Speaker 1: that's just based in vocals, that little run that he did,

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Speaker 1: like it's so his voice is so good on this

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Speaker 1: um no. I you know, I never mercifully. I was like,

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Speaker 1: I this was not like the cliche of like yuppie

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Speaker 1: dinner music for me, Like, ID never heard this record

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Speaker 1: growing up. I knew you can call me al from

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Speaker 1: like the radio, but I never heard this record in

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Speaker 1: my house. I never heard it through friends. It was

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Speaker 1: really only in college when Vampire Weekend came around, and

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Speaker 1: to a lesser extent, Dirty Projectors more rich white guys

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Speaker 1: from New York who were stealing African sounds much more

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Speaker 1: so with Vampire Weekend. I mean, they have a song

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Speaker 1: called Cape Hodd Quassa Quassa, and they also took like

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Speaker 1: so much of the production cues off this Dirty Projectors

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Speaker 1: a little bit less so, but they definitely had some

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Speaker 1: of that kind of African tonality and vocal stuff in there.

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Speaker 1: And then I, you know, I I almost went back

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Speaker 1: to school for ete musicology that was like my alternate

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Speaker 1: reality career track, and so I was I didn't know

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Speaker 1: I'm learning this live on Like I did not know that.

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Speaker 1: I was super interested and I am super interested in

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Speaker 1: in all of it, um and but particularly Africa African music,

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Speaker 1: and and you know, this was um just kind of

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Speaker 1: a gateway for it. And then like I got into

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Speaker 1: all kinds of Molly and music and and uh, like

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Speaker 1: I got really interested in in Bida music like thumb

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Speaker 1: piano stuff, and obviously faila Cootie was huge for me,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, all that stuff is just so fascinating to me.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's it's it's an incredible record in

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Speaker 1: terms of the political dimensions of it, but also in

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Speaker 1: terms of just the sheer sound of you know, because

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Speaker 1: I'll talk about this a little later on, but like

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Speaker 1: this is eight six. Basses and guitars had only really

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Speaker 1: been around. Electric basses and electric guitars were not that old.

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Speaker 1: So like the sound of of these guys playing centuries

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Speaker 1: old African music on electric instruments is still kind of

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Speaker 1: a new thing, at least in terms of the scope

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Speaker 1: of like African music and that history. So it really

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Speaker 1: is like kind of a quietly revolutionary thing in terms

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Speaker 1: of getting it into into Western ears. It's just so

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Speaker 1: funny that it comes across, you know when you think

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Speaker 1: of like people who are like super into deep afrobeating,

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Speaker 1: like deep faila Couti, that's like you faila Coutie was

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Speaker 1: like almost killed by the government. So there's like really

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Speaker 1: that's like edgy, like raw actual revel or like sub

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Speaker 1: Saharan stuff like tanaro In, like those guys were rebels

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Speaker 1: against the government. And then it's just so funny to

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Speaker 1: me that there's all that like really interesting like counter

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Speaker 1: cultural African music that has become popular, but the most

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Speaker 1: popular form is like the most milk toast little nebishy

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Speaker 1: white dude, And it's such a thorny, complicated legacy. And

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to talk about it. Yeah, we'll touch

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Speaker 1: on it more later on the episode. But yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean it's impossible or at least irresponsible to talk about

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Speaker 1: the amazing music on grace Land without discussing its genesis

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Speaker 1: in South Africa, where apartheid was still the law of

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Speaker 1: the land. Yeah, I mean two things can be true

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Speaker 1: at the same time. It's ultimately what this is. It's

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Speaker 1: like it's a collection of amazing songs that touched millions

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Speaker 1: of people, not least of which some of the people

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Speaker 1: who helped make it. But it can also be some

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Speaker 1: of the worst examples of white privilege. And also Paul

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Speaker 1: Simon being a dick. It's like two things can be

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Speaker 1: true at the same time, man, and and you know,

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Speaker 1: owing to our positions and privileges, I do think we

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Speaker 1: should foreground some of the negative stuff, at least to

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Speaker 1: kind of check the millions of dollars this made. Yes.

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Speaker 1: Paul Simon traveled to South Africa to record this album

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Speaker 1: with local musicians, violating a boycott that had been established

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Speaker 1: by the United Nations Anti Apartheid Committee. This uh cause

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Speaker 1: some problems, and by seeking to make music that transcended politics,

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Speaker 1: Paul Simon found themselves at the center of a human

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Speaker 1: rights crisis that unfolded basically on the world stage. It

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Speaker 1: was an incredibly complex issue at the time, and the

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Speaker 1: conversations around it really remained difficult to this day. Upon

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Speaker 1: the release of Graceland in six people generally felt one

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Speaker 1: of three ways about Paul Simon. I'd say to some

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Speaker 1: he was a rebellious hero taking a stand for artists

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Speaker 1: against bureaucracy into solitary and regimes. Others thought he was

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Speaker 1: a naive and idealistic hippy who undermined the anti apartheid

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Speaker 1: caused by going there. And still others thought he was

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Speaker 1: a thief, like countless colonialists before him, going to Africa

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Speaker 1: and plundering what was there. Paul Simon himself summed up

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Speaker 1: this public perception in later years. He said, here's this

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Speaker 1: white guy from New York, and he ripped off these

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Speaker 1: poor innocent guys. I wrote about all this in an

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Speaker 1: article for Rolling Stone tied to the album's thirtieth anniversary,

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Speaker 1: and which I'd like to site now, not because one

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Speaker 1: of those guys who likes to quote himself, but I

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Speaker 1: just don't want to accidentally self played Durie and get

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Speaker 1: in trouble. Uh. The fundamental debate surrounding the ethics of

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Speaker 1: Graceland hinges on two questions. Was Paul Simon right and

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Speaker 1: breaking the boycott? And did he have the right to

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Speaker 1: make the album at all. Let's discuss question one first.

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Speaker 1: There are many who would argue that the South African

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Speaker 1: cultural Boycott was a deeply flawed strategy that did more

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Speaker 1: harm than good for the disenfranchised people that it was

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Speaker 1: put in place to support. This view is shared by

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Speaker 1: all of the musicians who played with Paul on Graceland.

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Speaker 1: Sax player Barney Rochabana said in in South Africa, we

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Speaker 1: had no opportunity. You could have dreams, but they never

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Speaker 1: come true. It really destroys you. But Graceland opened my

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Speaker 1: eyes and set a tone of hope in my life.

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Speaker 1: Yet this very uplifting revelation is countered by Dolli Tombo,

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Speaker 1: the founder of the Artists Against Apartheid organization, who felt

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Speaker 1: that Paul Simon put the show based ambitions of a

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Speaker 1: handful of local musicians above the struggle of a nation.

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Speaker 1: Tembo told The New York Times, we were fighting for

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Speaker 1: our land, for our identity. We had a job to

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Speaker 1: do and it was a serious job. And we saw

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Speaker 1: Paul Simon coming as a threat because it was not

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Speaker 1: sanctioned by the liberation movement. And then we get to

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Speaker 1: question to the question of whether Paul Simon had the

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Speaker 1: right to make the album at all, and this question

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Speaker 1: has gotten more complicated with the passing of the decades.

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Speaker 1: It's important to remember that terms like cultural appropriation didn't

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Speaker 1: really exist when grace Lam was recorded in n Whether

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Speaker 1: you called it borrowing, paying homage to, riffing on, or stealing.

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Speaker 1: White artists have been incorporating traditionally Black music into their

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Speaker 1: work for most of the twentieth century. Uh go back

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Speaker 1: to you know, George Gershwin even but Grace Laan was

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Speaker 1: groundbreaking because it wore its influences so nakedly and it

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Speaker 1: credited them, which was crucial. South African musicians and singers

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Speaker 1: were invited to share the spotlight, giving many of the

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Speaker 1: mainstream international exposure for the first time, and Paul Simon's

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Speaker 1: assistance that Graceland was a true collaboration you know in

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Speaker 1: quotes is up for debate. But the album did manage

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Speaker 1: to provide a platform for a group of musicians who

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Speaker 1: were legally prohibited from participating in an international stage, and

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Speaker 1: that counts for something. Still, elements of the grace Land

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Speaker 1: project remain problematic to some. The South African Trombonis and

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Speaker 1: anti apartheid activist Jonas Guangua summed up the thoughts of

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Speaker 1: probably countless black artists when confronted with Graceland success. So

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Speaker 1: it has taken another white man to discover my people.

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Speaker 1: He asked, Yeah, I mean, the other big thing about

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Speaker 1: this is that Paul Simon tried to duck a lot

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Speaker 1: of this just by paying people more, but he ultimately, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's still the exact same Chess Records Berry

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Speaker 1: Gordy thing like that John Mulaney famously said, you'll give me,

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Speaker 1: you'll you'll take all my songwrits and just give me

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Speaker 1: a shiny new Cadillac. Mr. Gordy Like, yeah, you could

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Speaker 1: pay people really well to record, but if you're not

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Speaker 1: giving them songwriting credits and percentages off that a's still

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Speaker 1: a one day paycheck or a one you know, like

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Speaker 1: the motame musicians, like you pay him by the hour.

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Speaker 1: Sure that's fair in the moment, but you're still ultimately

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Speaker 1: in control of the publishing and making millions of dollars

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Speaker 1: off of it over fifty years instead of hundreds of

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Speaker 1: dollars off of it over several hours. Well, Paul put

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Speaker 1: I think five out of eleven songs on Grace Land

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Speaker 1: he has co writes with some of the African musicians

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Speaker 1: he played. Initially though, okay, I believe so okay good.

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Speaker 1: I thought this was one of those I I mean,

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Speaker 1: I I wasn't a retro. I was gonna say, I

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Speaker 1: thought it was like a led Zeppelin thing where he

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Speaker 1: was like, fine, I'll do it. Oh. All lots of

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Speaker 1: challenging questions to consider as we dive into this fascinating

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Speaker 1: story about an album that for me, represents a high

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Speaker 1: watermark and record of music and a brilliant cross cultural

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Speaker 1: experience that, as I said earlier, it succeeds on nearly

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Speaker 1: every level. So that further ado, here is everything you

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Speaker 1: didn't know about Paul Simon's grace Land one. Well, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna start at the very beginning in nine four, Paul

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Speaker 1: Simon was at a crossroads. Actually, no, he wasn't. He

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Speaker 1: wasn't at a cross roads at all. He's basically at

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Speaker 1: rock bottom. And this was not a place where Paul

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Speaker 1: Simon ever really found himself. He dominated the seventies with

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Speaker 1: a string of critical and commercial hits like every big

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Speaker 1: Paul Simon's song that isn't on Graceland. But he entered

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Speaker 1: the eighties with One Trick Pony, which was a film

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Speaker 1: written by and starring himself, plus an accompanying musical soundtrack.

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Speaker 1: Neither of these, the album or the movie was especially

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Speaker 1: well received. Have you ever seen this. Nope, you neither

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Speaker 1: don't want to. Alright, moving on, But Paul Stock rose

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Speaker 1: in September of one when he and Arc garf Uncle

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Speaker 1: reunited for their famous concert in Central Park, which drew

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Speaker 1: a mind blowing five thousand people to the Great Lawn

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Speaker 1: and became one of the biggest musical events in history,

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Speaker 1: bigger than would Stock supposedly, that is crazy. They planned

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Speaker 1: a subsequent reunion tour, but then old tensions quickly returned,

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Speaker 1: and a proposed reunion album tentatively titled Think Too Much

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Speaker 1: fell through. They've been recording it together, but Paul ultimately

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Speaker 1: wiped Artie's vocals from the track, which is an underdiscussed

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Speaker 1: petty move on his part. I love that Paul Simon's ala.

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Speaker 1: You could always be counted on for some kind of

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Speaker 1: deliciously petty knife in the ribs, even his own. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The resulting solo album was released in three as Hearts

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Speaker 1: and Bones, which is just one of the most crushing

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Speaker 1: records of his career. It's filled with allusions to his

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Speaker 1: troubled relationship with actress Carrie Fisher, and the only thing

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Speaker 1: sadder than a devastating breakup record is a devastating breakup

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Speaker 1: record that flops, which Hearts and Bones did. It became

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Speaker 1: the lowest charting record of his career or totally outstripped

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Speaker 1: by the new vanguard of MTV hit makers like Michael Jackson,

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Speaker 1: Madonna and Prince and Paul Simon would later say, I

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Speaker 1: had a personal blow and a career setback, and the

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Speaker 1: combination of the two just put me into a tailspin.

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Speaker 1: And he even told his friend Philip Glass, the composer,

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Speaker 1: that he was no longer interested in writing hits around

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Speaker 1: this time. So, with his career at a low ebb,

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Speaker 1: his personal life and shambles, and completely estranged from his

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Speaker 1: singing partner, Paul Simon spent the spring of pondering his

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Speaker 1: next move, and he did so in the driveway of

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Speaker 1: his property in Montauk, Long Island, watching workmen build the

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Speaker 1: house he planned for himself and Terry Fisher, which honestly,

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Speaker 1: that should have been a song. That is devastating. He

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Speaker 1: would just sit in the driveway, spark up a joint

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Speaker 1: and listen to tapes. There's absolutely no more mid century

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Speaker 1: like white guy image than someone sitting in their Montuck

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Speaker 1: driveway stoned watching workmen, watching workmen build their house. Next

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Speaker 1: to snl Impresarios Lord Michael's. Yes, that's a John Cheever

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Speaker 1: short story. Yeah, pretty much so. He's sitting in the

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Speaker 1: driveway in the past the time. He would often listen

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Speaker 1: to tapes, and he especially liked one specific tape, a

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Speaker 1: bootleg tape of South African music with the handwritten label

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Speaker 1: Accordion Jive Hits Volume two. Now, the way that he

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Speaker 1: obtained this tape is an interesting story. Grace Land was

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Speaker 1: obviously a major collaborative effort featuring work by a host

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Speaker 1: of unrepresented people and cultures. But grace Land likely wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have happened at all had it not been for Lauren Michael's,

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Speaker 1: the producer Saturday Night Live. There are several ways that

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Speaker 1: Lauren was basically the fairy godfather of the grace Land story,

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Speaker 1: and we'll touch on more later. Lauren and Paul were

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Speaker 1: close friends and neighbors out on Long Island, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think Paul was building his house either close to

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Speaker 1: or directly next door to Lawrence and lawt talk. Now,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people forget that Lauren Michael's actually left

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Speaker 1: Saturday Night Live in nineteen eighty five, years into the

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Speaker 1: show's run to try his hand at making what was

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Speaker 1: basically a primetime version of SNL, and this new show

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Speaker 1: was called, fittingly the New Show. And unfortunately, the new

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Speaker 1: show failed to catch on and was canceled in the

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Speaker 1: spring of after I think just nine episodes. It didn't

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Speaker 1: last long, and this was bad news for the defunct

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Speaker 1: show's band leader, Heidie Berg, who had been lured away

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Speaker 1: from her prior gig on SNL. She chose poorly. She

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Speaker 1: went to Lauren one day after the show got canceled

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Speaker 1: to try to figure out what her next new gig

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Speaker 1: could be, and Lauren suggested she go to speak to

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Speaker 1: was good friend Paul Simon, who kept offices from him

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Speaker 1: just down the hall of New York City's Brill Building.

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Speaker 1: So Heidieberg paid Paul a visit and played him some

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Speaker 1: of her songs. One thing led to another, and eventually

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Speaker 1: he offered to produce an album for her, and as

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Speaker 1: an example of how she wanted this album to sound,

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Speaker 1: Heidi Loan's Paul this bootleg tape with the homemade label

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Speaker 1: Accordion Jive Hits Volume two. It was Township Jive music

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Speaker 1: from Sueto, which was a black suburb on the outskirts

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Speaker 1: of Johannesburg. Yeah, township is interesting. Um. It comes from

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Speaker 1: like the literal townships, which were these I mean they

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Speaker 1: were slums. They were racially segregated slums in in South

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Speaker 1: Africa that the government basically pushed everyone who wasn't white into. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like a lative American reservation essentially. But you

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Speaker 1: guys can live here, yeah. Um. But it's it's funny

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Speaker 1: because there's so many micro genres in there that all

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Speaker 1: fall under the heading of township. I mean it's almost

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Speaker 1: like saying like blues or rock music, um, because they

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Speaker 1: all these all these guys were living in these environments,

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Speaker 1: and everyone took the kind of music that they grew

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Speaker 1: up in and came and and found new influences from

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Speaker 1: and combined them in different ways. There's one in particular

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Speaker 1: called Kuala music that it's just all built around penny whistles,

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Speaker 1: which is why you hear so many like penny whistle

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Speaker 1: sound and and all over the I mean, and it's

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Speaker 1: just that's they were like, you know, so much of

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Speaker 1: this stuff comes from being like, well we have a

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Speaker 1: very cheap instruments, what can we do with that? And

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Speaker 1: you know it's the answer is incredible things. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, there's a lot that folds into that genre specifically.

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Speaker 1: I mean there's there's a great UM music comp uh

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Speaker 1: series called The Indestructible Beat Molly Brown. Yes, No, the

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Speaker 1: Indestructible Beat of Soweto, which is so like very like it.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's when he went down there. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's one of the most formative comps of of

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Speaker 1: that uh that is that came out at the time,

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Speaker 1: and it's got Ladysmith Black Mambazo on it. Um So. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: so this tape that she played Paul was filled with

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Speaker 1: jangly guitars and saxophones and really interesting percussive elements and

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Speaker 1: most fascinating to her accordions because she really loved this

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Speaker 1: accordion sound that was a hallmark of this music. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the the accordion is so interesting in I mean, the

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Speaker 1: term world music is problematic. You can't take every kind

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Speaker 1: of music that isn't American music and flatten it into

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Speaker 1: one label. But um, let me just say that the

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Speaker 1: accordions presence on the international, non europe non American stage

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Speaker 1: is very interesting because like in like in UM, a

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Speaker 1: lot of Mexico like Tehano Konjunto music and from Mexico.

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Speaker 1: Like the reason that a lot of the that stuff

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Speaker 1: developed is because they would get either missionaries or sailors

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Speaker 1: coming in with like concertinas and accordions, and then people

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Speaker 1: would take those instruments because they were cheap and portable,

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Speaker 1: uh and and basically take music that had been purely

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Speaker 1: vocal passed down through oral tradition for decades and centuries

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Speaker 1: and then just start supporting it to these instruments. So

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Speaker 1: in Africa you get it because sailors had brought like

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Speaker 1: concertinas in and so they sort of spread through the

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Speaker 1: continent from the coasts and also through missionaries who brought

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Speaker 1: accordions in. And that's how you know because you don't

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Speaker 1: have like read organ keyboard instruments in very very old

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Speaker 1: African traditions, that's not so much a thing. But they

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Speaker 1: adopted this stuff because you could take it from village

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Speaker 1: to village, you could travel with it, and that's where

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Speaker 1: you get that sound that so much of it is

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Speaker 1: based around. I mean, you hear it on the opening

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Speaker 1: track of Grace Land The Boy in the Bubble Um.

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Speaker 1: I think it's the first sound that you hear on

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Speaker 1: the record, and that wasn't an accident, Like he wanted

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Speaker 1: that kind of wild cartwheeling accordion sound, very disorienting, the

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Speaker 1: sort of Harald that this was going to be a

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Speaker 1: very new kind of sound that you hadn't really heard

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Speaker 1: accordion and gated drums, gated verb. So Heideberg, Lauren Michael's

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Speaker 1: friend uh lent this cassette to Paul Simon on the

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Speaker 1: condition that she could have it back in a week.

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Speaker 1: This was her favorite tape and there's only one copy

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Speaker 1: of it. So Paul put it on his car stereo

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Speaker 1: during one of his drives out to mont talk to

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Speaker 1: supervise the construction of his new house, or sit in

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Speaker 1: the driveway and moon over Carrie Fisher. But much like Heidieberg,

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Speaker 1: he was instantly captivated by this music. He later said,

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Speaker 1: it was very good summer music, happy music. It sounded

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Speaker 1: like very early rock and roll to me, black urban

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Speaker 1: mid fifties rock and roll, like the great Atlantic tracks

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Speaker 1: from that period. Yeah. And and the thing that I

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Speaker 1: love about this comparison is that, like, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: he says later on something that isn't true, which is

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Speaker 1: that this music only has major chords in it, which

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Speaker 1: is not true, but it's very funny that he got

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Speaker 1: that coming from folk music and coming from early rock

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Speaker 1: and roll, which by and large is one four five

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Speaker 1: major tonality. Chord progressions and spent even like the bass

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Speaker 1: patterns and sold music and blues patterns are coming from

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Speaker 1: the pentatonic scale, which is what you hear in a

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Speaker 1: lot of African music. It's all based around major and

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Speaker 1: minor pentatonic um these, which is is kind of an

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Speaker 1: oversimplification because those are the building blocks of all music.

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Speaker 1: There's a really cool lecture that Bobby McFerrin gives that

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Speaker 1: is up on Yes, that Bobby McFerrin, which is up

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Speaker 1: on YouTube, where he basically he um he's pretending to

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Speaker 1: be on a keyboard on stage and he tells the

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Speaker 1: crowd like, here's your tonic, your root note, m M,

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Speaker 1: and then he jumps on stage from like position to position,

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Speaker 1: up and down, up up the mind, up the major

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Speaker 1: pentatonic scale and he's like, here's your scale. And then

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Speaker 1: he starts jumping around and skipping notes and the crowd

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Speaker 1: follows him and he's like he's using this to illustrate

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Speaker 1: that it's like this really ingrained like scale that is

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Speaker 1: like universal to almost all forms of music, almost all

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Speaker 1: um geographical locations in music. I mean, if you start

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Speaker 1: tearing apart like the way that pentatonic actually the arrangement

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Speaker 1: of those notes actually works. You hear it in like

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Speaker 1: native American music, you hear it in Chinese music, you know.

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Speaker 1: So it's really interesting. But particularly his comparison to rock

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Speaker 1: and roll in blues because like folk music, cliche is

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Speaker 1: the one four five chord progression. Same with early blues

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Speaker 1: and rock and roll. Um. So yeah, I just think

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Speaker 1: it's interesting that he heard those I mean, obviously of

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Speaker 1: course he heard that last Paul Simon, but that compares

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00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 1: it is very on the money in a way that

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Speaker 1: is not just a fascile weird thing to say. So

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Speaker 1: after about a month of listening to this tape, which

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Speaker 1: I have to add is well over a week, remember

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Speaker 1: Heideberg wanted it back in a week. One of this

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Speaker 1: tape back in a week, he said that he started

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Speaker 1: improvising melodies over it as he listens, And this wasn't

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Speaker 1: a serious attempt to compose anything. He was just singing

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Speaker 1: along to the cassette for fun. And aside from the

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Speaker 1: nondescript title accordion Jive Hits Volume two. The tape bore

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Speaker 1: no hint of the music's origin. He knew it came

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Speaker 1: from South Africa, but that was pretty much all he

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Speaker 1: had to go on. So you would say, after a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks of driving back and forth to the

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Speaker 1: house and listening to the tape, I thought, what is

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Speaker 1: this tape? This is my favorite tape. I wonder who

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Speaker 1: this band is. And eventually he called Warner Brothers label

416
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Speaker 1: chief Lenny Warnker to help track it down, and Warriker

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Speaker 1: got in touch with South African producer Hilton Rosenthal, who

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Speaker 1: identified Paul's favorite track on the tape as an instrumental

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Speaker 1: called gum Boots by the Bayoyo Boys, and Paul had

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Speaker 1: an idea of buying the track outright and writing his

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Speaker 1: own words and melody to record over top, which is

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Speaker 1: something he actually has a history of doing. That's what

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Speaker 1: he did for the Simon and Garfuncle song El Condor

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Speaker 1: Passa from the Bridge over Troubled Water album that had

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Speaker 1: been an old Indian folk song that he just bought

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Speaker 1: the rights to and wrote his own music over top. So, uh,

427
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 1: poor Heidi never got her tape back, nor did she

428
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: get the music, the album that he was supposed to

429
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 1: produce with her. Um, she finally met up with Paul. Uh.

430
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: She got the sense that Paul was like kind of

431
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 1: avoiding her. Say that. Yeah, So she catches up to

432
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,479
Speaker 1: with him backstage at one of his concerts and she

433
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: gets talking with him, and he he talks about how

434
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: excited he is to go and record me an album

435
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 1: of this music that he'd heard on the tape, and

436
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:10,360
Speaker 1: she importedly holds out her hands and says, where's my end? Uh? Yeah. Uh.

437
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: The other thing that I've heard here is that she

438
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: was like talking to him about this and she was like, well,

439
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: I'm just going to get studio musicians to make something

440
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: that sounds like this. And he said to her, why

441
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: don't you just go to South Africa record and she

442
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 1: was like, I'm not rich. And the wheels began turning

443
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:33,439
Speaker 1: in Paul's head. Uh. Their relationship obviously deteriorated. She was

444
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,640
Speaker 1: name checked in the liner notes to Graceland, but too

445
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 1: little Too. She later said, I loaned him the tape

446
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 1: because I wanted to make a record. I didn't loan

447
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: him the tape so he would make a record. There

448
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 1: are two slightly different versions of this story in two

449
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 1: wildly contrasting biographies. There's Peter Ames Carlin's Paul Simon bio

450
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 1: from and then there's Robert Hilburn's bar from. The Hilburn

451
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 1: one was made with Paul simons cooperation, and it's a

452
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 1: lot more sympathetic yeah, and the Hillburn one goes out

453
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: of its way to note that asked if she'd ever

454
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 1: thought of going to South Africa to record the music,

455
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 1: Heidi said no, she just liked the accordion. Part. Carlin's

456
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: version is that she was like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna

457
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: I'll just recreate it here with student musicians in the States,

458
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: and Paul Simon was like, well, why don't you go

459
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: to South Africa? And she was like, I don't have

460
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 1: your credit card, ah, or I guess liquid assets. Um.

461
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: But the end result of all this is that Paul

462
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: Simon got his mojo back. No longer sitting in his

463
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: driveway for his unbuilt house watching day laborers, Paul Simon

464
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: finally felt sufficiently motivated to steal from black people. Uh

465
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: His longtime engineer Roy Haley later said that he knew

466
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: Paul would bounce back from his post Hearts and Bones

467
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 1: depression because he was the most competitive person I've ever known.

468
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: And this manifested in Paul's apparently rejuvenated creative spirit and

469
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: his desire to make this record. There's a there's a

470
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: Randy Newman's story here. Let's go to Georgian's Randy Newman Corner.

471
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 1: You love this story. I want to I want you

472
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 1: to read it. Oh, thank you. I love this story too.

473
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: Randy Newman tells this great story of playing whiffleball with

474
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: Paul Simon once, which I want an oral history of

475
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: that moment. I don't know how that came to pass,

476
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 1: but apparently Randy Newman was on the pitcher's mound and

477
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 1: Paul Simon was batting in this whiffleball game, and as

478
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 1: he stood at the plate, Paul was just muttering to himself,

479
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: I've gotta hit it, I've gotta hit it, and Randy said,

480
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: you know, he could have been kidding, but it felt serious.

481
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 1: He really cared about that stupid whiffleball game. Good for him,

482
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: I would have goals. I want to know, if I

483
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: want to know, what do you think Randy Newman's does.

484
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: Randy Newman's was Randy Newman a whiffleball guy. I see

485
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: him more. He's like, okay, wrastler, oh yeah yeah, no absolutely,

486
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: or a bowler. I could see him as a bowler

487
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: stocky yeah. Uh. They started have discussions about how to

488
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 1: go about recording this album, and the bootleg Boyoyo Boys

489
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 1: tape really wasn't up to technical standards, so they would

490
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: have to rerecord it for Paul to be able to

491
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: sing over top of it, and the brass at Warner

492
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: Brothers tried to convince him to just get some good

493
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: players and record it in New York. But much like

494
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: James Cameron, Paul wanted authenticity. He wanted to go there.

495
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: He wanted to use the players in the region and

496
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: record it on their home turf. And Paul Simon was

497
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: sort of famous for doing this, going on these musical

498
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 1: field trips, you know, to get the sounds that he wanted.

499
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 1: When he wished to explore the emerging reggae sounds on

500
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: his nineteen seventy two track Mother and Child Reunion, he

501
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 1: traveled to Kingston, Jamaica to record in the famous Dynamic

502
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 1: Sound studios, and when he wanted to add an extra

503
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: dose of funk to the album, there goes Ryman Simon.

504
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: The following year, in nineteen seventy three, he went to

505
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: Alabama and recorded with the Muscle Shoals sound Rhythm Action.

506
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: As he told National Geographic in I learned pretty early

507
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: on if you want to get the music right, you

508
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: should probably travel the words being played, as opposed to

509
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 1: asking musicians who are not familiar with it to copy it.

510
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 1: So he decided he would have to go to South Africa.

511
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: And what's more, he thought this was the perfect time

512
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: in his career to do it. He was so commercially

513
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: cold that he could take risks without having to justify

514
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: it the anxious label executives. He said, part of me thought, great,

515
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 1: no one's gonna be looking over my shoulders saying what's

516
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: the next single gonna be? Or what the hell are

517
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: you going to Africa for. Suddenly no one's saying anything

518
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: about me, and I'm just going by my instincts. I

519
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: was just excited by the music. So to get the

520
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: sounds that he heard on the bootleg Accordion Ji Volume

521
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: two tape, he would have to go to South Africa, and,

522
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: as he later said with hilarious understatement, at first I

523
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: thought it's too bad the tape isn't from Zimbabwe or

524
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: Zaire and Nigeria because life would have been simpler one

525
00:28:54,560 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: of those more convenient African countries for me, Paul signon, God,

526
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: it's so inconvenient that they're under apartheid rule. For me,

527
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: Paul Simon makes my life so much God. He's like

528
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: an old real building era hustler, and that's how he

529
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: talks about dealing with the South African government. He's basically

530
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: thinks that they're trying to hustle him. He's really what

531
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: it boils down to. M hmm, guy. His beautiful, beautiful

532
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: music recording in South Africa in the mid eighties was

533
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: dangerous a and prohibited b by the United Nations UM.

534
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: This was the time of the famous aforementioned international boycott

535
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: in protests of the South African government who instituted apartheid

536
00:29:54,360 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: or separateness, whereby the white minority ruled and disenfranchised every

537
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: one who wasn't white. Um, they weren't even citizens. I

538
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: stopped them of the citizenship and in all their rights. Yeah.

539
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: In December, the U in General Assembly passed Resolution thirty

540
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: five slash two oh six, which forced all states to

541
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: prevent all cultural academic, sporting and other exchanges with South

542
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: Africa and ordered writers, artists, musicians and other personalities to

543
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: boycott the nation. This was so strict that it technically

544
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: extended to working with South African players who weren't even

545
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: in the country at the time. Paul Simon did not

546
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: believe this applied to him. Depending on your stance, uh,

547
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: you could simply say that he was making an argument

548
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: on behalf of art transcending all borders, or he was

549
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: simply angered that it inconvenienced him and his love of

550
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: accordion music. Again, two things could be true at the

551
00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: same time in the In the two thousand twelve documentary

552
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: Under African Skies, Paul Simon returns to South Africa for

553
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: the first time in twenty five years and meets with

554
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: Dali Tambo, who is the founder of Artists Against Apartheid

555
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: and the son of the African National Congress President Oliver Tambo.

556
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: He had been an outspoken opponent of Grace Land and

557
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: Paul sits down with him at Tambo's home and argues

558
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: that Paul Simon was right. Tambo tells him, we've been

559
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: saying to artists at this point in the history of

560
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: South Africa. The expression of your support must be non participatory.

561
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: You can't go there. If you go there, you become

562
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: part of apartheid's attempt to gain international legitimacy. That is

563
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: how solidarity works. You. If you break a strike line,

564
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: you are a scab. If you break a boycott, you

565
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: are in violation of it. And uh, you know, we'll

566
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: get into the Sun's City thing later. But it's interesting

567
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: that Simon and garf Uncle turned down an offer to

568
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: perform at Sun City. This is a resort that was

569
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: located in the supposedly independent tribal homeland, ninety miles outside

570
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: of Johannesburg. But in practice, what it was was a

571
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 1: loophole for the South African government to bring white international

572
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: superstars in to perform in what was essentially South Africa

573
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: under the veneer of a different name and legal jurisdiction. So,

574
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: in any event, Paul Simon didn't like being told what

575
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: to do, and he wanted to make the kind of

576
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: music he wanted to make exactly where he wanted to

577
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: make it. And this was early and Paul happened to

578
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: run into Harry Belafonte, yet a star studied recording session

579
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: for the Granddaddy of all charity singles We Are the

580
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: World As One Does. Paul knew that Harry was a

581
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,959
Speaker 1: legendary civil rights activist and he asked his advice on

582
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 1: how to handle the South Africa situation. Harry encouraged Paul's

583
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: musical endeavors, but he also encouraged them to check with

584
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: quote the powers that prevail in the African National Congress,

585
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: which was South Africa's anti apartheid opposition party WE, which

586
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: had been led by Nelson Mandela before his imprisonment in

587
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four. PAULA didn't want to ask permission. I

588
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: didn't want to wait. As Harry Belafonte said in the

589
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: Under African Skies documentary, I can't read this is the

590
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: right phase. Harry seems to give him the benefit of

591
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: the doubt. He takes a very generous read on the situation,

592
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: he said. Paul declared that the power of art and

593
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: the voice of the artist was supreme, and to beg

594
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: the right of passage was against his instinct. Paul had

595
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: a much more quaint way of putting it to Dolly Tombo.

596
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: He said, it's like having your dad tell you not

597
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: to take the car out on a date that you

598
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: really want to go on, you take the car anyway.

599
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 1: Paul Simon was a little more articulate to The New

600
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: York Times. He said, I knew I would be criticized

601
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: if I went, even though I wasn't going to record

602
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: for the government or to perform for segregated audiences. I

603
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 1: was following my musical instincts and wanting to work the

604
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 1: people whose music I greatly admired. Incredible good for him,

605
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: and I say that sarcastically. Paul Simon also went to

606
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: his black friends as king, begging them to tell him

607
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: he was an okay person for doing this. He went

608
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: to Quincy Jones, which, as you very eloquently described, it

609
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 1: is like going to mom after Dad said no um.

610
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: Quincy was more laid back about the whole thing, UH,

611
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 1: telling Paul, just make sure everybody gets paid and that

612
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 1: everybody likes it. And so Paul Simon, Uh, in the

613
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 1: spirit of time immemorial of white guys everywhere, believing there

614
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: is no problem you can't throw money at until it

615
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: goes away, offered triple US Union scale two hundred an

616
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: hour instead of fifteen an hour to the musicians and

617
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: promised to share writing credits, writing musical or lyrical input.

618
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: South African mus be getting fifteen bucks an hour Jesus

619
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,919
Speaker 1: Christ for like what ten songs a day? You said

620
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: when they were cutting this stuff of that studio. Uh. Yeah,

621
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: and uh that was a good enough deal that even

622
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: the South African Black Musicians Union passed a resolution to

623
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: formally invite Simon to record in their country. I have

624
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 1: tons of black friends. They all said this was okay.

625
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 1: My incredibly wealthy black friend Quincy Jones said this was okay.

626
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 1: So I'm doing it. Have some money. Please tell me

627
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: I'm a good person. Tell me, please tell me I'm

628
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: a good person. Please have some money. It's complicated. We're

629
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 1: going to take a quick break, but we'll be right

630
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: back with more. Too much information in just a moment.

631
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: Paul an engineer Roy Halley flew to South Africa in

632
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: February for what they intended to be a semi secret trip.

633
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: But as we said earlier, Paul Simon's career was at

634
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: such a low EBB that there was really no need

635
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: for secrecy. He said, I was so cold that I

636
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: could do this all privately. Nobody would be checking in

637
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 1: And THO has often been said that the South African

638
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: musicians were thrilled to perform with the star of Paul

639
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: Simon's caliber. This is not strictly true. There was a

640
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: mixed response among the local South African musicians, with some

641
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: very eager to play with him and some not so much.

642
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 1: Basist but Keithi Kumalo, who worked the day job as

643
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,919
Speaker 1: a mechanic in a car garage, had no idea who

644
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: Paul Simon was, and when he finally made the connection,

645
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: I think it was with Mother and Child Reunion was

646
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 1: the only song that he sort of dimly was aware

647
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: of of Paul's. Even then, he was even more confused

648
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: as to why this American superstar wanted to record with them.

649
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: He said, I kind of wondered what we were doing.

650
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I continued to ask myself, who's going to

651
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: want to hear this township music in America? Yeah, he's

652
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: so funny, and all the interviews with him, he's like

653
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: I was listening to weather Report. I was very much

654
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: into jazz fusion at the time, so it must have

655
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: been very baffled by this five ft three Jewish songwriter

656
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: coming in and stuffing money down his shirt. With producer

657
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 1: Hilton Rosenthal on hand to bridge the cultural gap as

658
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: best he could. They hold up in Johannesburg's Ovation Studios,

659
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: which was a state of the art, twenty four tracks studio,

660
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: and called in a steady stream of local musicians. They're

661
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: the Boo Boys who set this whole journey off with

662
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: their song on the bootleg tape Paul loved, as well

663
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: as members of the popular South African group called Stimmela.

664
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: There was Lulu Massilela and General M. D. Sharinda and

665
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 1: the Gaza sisters. And given the skepticism I just mentioned,

666
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: it's probably understandable that the first day was a little tense.

667
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:51,919
Speaker 1: The musicians went out of their way to call all

668
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: the white people sir, and they were very concerned about

669
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 1: doing the wrong thing because, like I said, they were

670
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: used to cranking out like ten songs today and this

671
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: was far from Paul's m O. Instead of having a

672
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: specific song in mind, Paul just wanted to play and

673
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: see what happened. And the whole idea was that they

674
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: would jam for ten to thirty minutes, very loose, no headphones,

675
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 1: almost garage like room, and then Paul would go back

676
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,479
Speaker 1: to America and try to piece together tracks and write

677
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 1: lyrics over top, and sometimes he would use only a

678
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: little bit of a jam and a good example of

679
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: this is the song Graceland Itself, which I believe only

680
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 1: pulled the drum track played by VC Kumalo, although they

681
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: might have actually re recorded it I think about it.

682
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: But this technique, it was not unlike a modern hip

683
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: hop producer chopping up pre existing songs to create new beats.

684
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: And this completely inverted the normal way that Paul made records,

685
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: which was writing a song first and then coming into

686
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: the studio to record the track. And this was essentially

687
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: an anecdote to what he thought had gone wrong in

688
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: his previous album, Hearts and Bones, where he loved the

689
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: songs that he'd written, but he felt that the tracks

690
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: themselves weren't very exciting and kind of come up short.

691
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: So in this case, he could start with a really

692
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: exciting track and then bill a melody and lyrics around it,

693
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 1: and if he wound up not really liking the song

694
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 1: he wrote for it, he could scrap it and go

695
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: back to the original basic track and start building it

696
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: up again. And that's what happened with the album's opener,

697
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: The Boy in the Bubble, it was an entirely different

698
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 1: song at first, and he wrote several different songs that

699
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: went over top of it. Yeah, Paul's longtime an engineer,

700
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: from going back to the Columbia days. A guy named

701
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: Rory Haley or Halle told Sound on Sound in two

702
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: thousand eight. Paul certainly wasn't going to tell those guys

703
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: what to play. But he's a master organizer. He's extremely smart,

704
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: and he was great at determining which section would be

705
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: nice as a bridge, or chorus or an intro, while

706
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 1: striking up friendships with the group members with whom he

707
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,720
Speaker 1: could communicate. These included the guitarist Ray Peery, who always

708
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: had a wealth of stuff going on in his head.

709
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: He was smart. He could tell what Paul liked, and

710
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: he would just go into the little catalog in his

711
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 1: mind and come up with something. Whenever Paul said what

712
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: do you have, Ray, the response would be, well, I

713
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 1: have this. That saw the songs really evolved. Hayley continued,

714
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: Paul has great musical ears, and when it came to

715
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: sifting through all the material and deciding what to use,

716
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 1: where to make edits, and how to shape things into

717
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,439
Speaker 1: a track, he had a lot of that in his head.

718
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: He has an incredible mind, and there wasn't anything that

719
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: he didn't make a mental note of while listening to

720
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 1: the musicians play their grooves. Yeah, we'll get to this later,

721
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: but there's a story when they were recording the basic

722
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: track for the song grace Land and Ray starts playing

723
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 1: and he moves to a minor chord, which Paul said

724
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 1: was unusual for the kind of music he'd been hearing

725
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: them play. Hearing Ray play, and he asked Ray later, like,

726
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 1: what made you do that chord? And Ray sideralts, I'm

727
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: imitating the kind of music that you do, like the

728
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,399
Speaker 1: kind of American folks stuff that you play. So yeah,

729
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: he's he's a real m v P of these sessions.

730
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: Ray Peery. Paul described the sessions in South Africa as

731
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: for the most part, euphoric, that's his words, except for

732
00:40:55,480 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: you know, apartheid. Ah. He told MPR in twenty two, Well,

733
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 1: in the middle of the euphoric feeling in the studio,

734
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: you would have reminders that you're living in an incredibly

735
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: tense racial environment where the law all the land was apartheid,

736
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 1: and the black musicians would have to leave around sundown,

737
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 1: so they could be bust back to their township as

738
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,280
Speaker 1: required by law after dark. They were prohibited from writing,

739
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: public transport or even being in the street in Johannesburg

740
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: after curfew. And there was a moment when Paul was

741
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: in the middle of recording what would become Gum Boots,

742
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 1: when the sax player packed up his instrument at five

743
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: o'clock because he could be arrested if they found them

744
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: in town. And Paul told Rolling Stone in there was

745
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: a surface tranquility, but right below the surface was all

746
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: this tension. And there was a story that he told

747
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: in the Under African Skies documentary where the Boyoo boys

748
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 1: were having a hard time nailing apart that Paul wanted,

749
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: and Paul was getting visibly frustrated, and one of the

750
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 1: white engineers at the studio leaned over and kind of

751
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: elbowed him and said, see, this is what we're talking about.

752
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 1: They can't do it. I'll tell you they can, but

753
00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 1: they can't. So that's uh, not great, not great, Bob.

754
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,319
Speaker 1: Speaking of the studio, one of the biggest knocks against

755
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: Graceland is that it sounds dated, particularly to the mid eighties,

756
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: and probably the best example of that is the drum

757
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 1: sound on this record, which is a choice. It is

758
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: very funny to me to conceptually have uh, these quote

759
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: unquote low fi quote unquote authentic sounds, like to be like, oh,

760
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 1: I want to get like the most authentic like African,

761
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: you know, playing musicianship possible, and then to be like,

762
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: but I want the drums to sound like Phil Collins,

763
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: and that is exactly what he does. The sound on

764
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: this record of those drums. As we mentioned earlier, one

765
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: of the first things you hear on this record is

766
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: the drum sound of the eighties gated reverb. It's a

767
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 1: little difficult to explain, but you will if you hear it.

768
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: And there's all compets of punch in. I can punch

769
00:42:55,719 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 1: in the opening of the Boy in the Bubble, So

770
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 1: what that is? And this is so fascinating and and

771
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: this became it you heard on in the Air tonight.

772
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 1: It's probably one of the most famous because that song

773
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 1: is like drums, but also on Let's Dance, as I mentioned,

774
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: Hounds of Love. It is huge on all the hair

775
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: metal records. And it was a mistake. It was a

776
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: complete and utter mistake, and you can blame Phil Collins

777
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:27,760
Speaker 1: and Peter Gabriel and a producer named Hugh Pagum. Phil

778
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,399
Speaker 1: Collins was drumming on a Peter Gabriel song that would

779
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: become this song Intruder, And there was a solid state

780
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,839
Speaker 1: logic console that they had that was new at the time.

781
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 1: It was a new console and had a multi channel

782
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 1: compressor that was built into it. UH and a compressor

783
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 1: is a musical piece of musical technology that essentially takes

784
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: quiet sounds and makes them louder, and takes loud songs

785
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 1: and makes them quieter. It's a gross over simplification, but

786
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: that's essentially what it does. It's how you get a

787
00:43:55,560 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: more even consistent tone from UH instruments vocal for recording

788
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:06,240
Speaker 1: purposes in studios, and previously you had to patch that

789
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 1: that technology in one channel at a time. And with

790
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: the advances in the time at the time in digital technology,

791
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 1: this console that they were using was one of the

792
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: first ones that could just apply compression to every input channel.

793
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: And what happened was the way that it was built,

794
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:23,720
Speaker 1: it also had it applied to the talk back channel.

795
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: When you're recording in a studio. A talk back mike

796
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 1: is a mic that is in the live room that

797
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: feeds back into the control room so that the musicians

798
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: can talk in the live room while they're recording or

799
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: in between takes, and people in the control room can

800
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: hear it because in a normal situation, those rooms are

801
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: separated and soundproofed. So the compression, because the way that

802
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 1: this console was built, the compression was also applied to

803
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: the talk back mike because the thinking was, oh, well,

804
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: if the musicians are in like opposite corners of the

805
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: room and someone is talking from one corner of the

806
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 1: room and his voice is very quiet, we need the

807
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 1: compression to make it as loud as someone who is

808
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: physically closer to the mic. So what happened was Phil

809
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: Collins was talking on this and then suddenly started playing

810
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: drums without telling cue pagum, I'm going to play the

811
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: drums down, turn off the talk back mike. And when

812
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: they heard the way that the drums sounded through this

813
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: talkback mike and through this specific digital compression, they all

814
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: flipped because it sound It made the acoustic sound of

815
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: these drums suddenly huge and really in your face and

816
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 1: really amplified. And the record the console wasn't even set

817
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: up to record from the talk back mike, this guy,

818
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: Hugh Paget, had to modit to be able to record

819
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: from that, and then he added a noise gate, which

820
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 1: is another device. And what a noise gate does is

821
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:42,399
Speaker 1: it cuts off all signal below a certain threshold. So

822
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 1: the sound that you're hearing there is a very very

823
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: loud attack the initial of the drum of whatever the

824
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 1: acoustic signal is, and then very little of the acoustic

825
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: decay that would naturally follow in a room. Now, the

826
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: other half of the gated reverb sound is another specific

827
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 1: piece of technology that, as all things must can come

828
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 1: back to Prince. Prince was his drum sounds enormously influential

829
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: on stuff like um, you know, Dirty Mind and uh,

830
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 1: Sign of the Times. But there's a very specific combination

831
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,919
Speaker 1: that he used, which was the Lynn Drum. Lyn drum

832
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 1: machine Roger Lynn into a digital reverb box called the

833
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 1: A M S R M X sixteen. Now that digital

834
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 1: rever box had a number of settings presets that you

835
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: could use um small hall, spring reverb, plate reverb, large hall,

836
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: and one of the presets was something called non linear reverb.

837
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: And what that means is that normal reverb decays the

838
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: longer goes on right because in the true sense of reverberation,

839
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: there is less sound reverberating in a space, so it's

840
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: going to get quieter. Nonlinear flips that, so it actually

841
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 1: gets louder as it it starts off with a quiet

842
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 1: sound and actually gets louder if you look at the

843
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 1: wave form. And Prince's staff engineer at the time as

844
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: a woman named Susan Rogers, and she's one of the

845
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 1: people who was an architect of this sound. She now

846
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: teaches at Berkeley. She describes the effect of having this noisegate,

847
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 1: having this very compressed drum sound, and having non linear

848
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,879
Speaker 1: reaverb on it as a tidal wave, an enormous title

849
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 1: wave of sound that suddenly stops. You hear it on

850
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 1: these early eighties things, and then it became just kind

851
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 1: of the drum sound of the eighties you heard on

852
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 1: all these pop records, hair metal. And then when the

853
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 1: nineties rolled around and um Nirvana killed all of those people, Um,

854
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: the trend immediately came back to very swung back around,

855
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 1: largely thanks to Steve Albini two very dry drum production,

856
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 1: very very dry, natural sounding, just the sound of a

857
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,839
Speaker 1: drum set in a small room, and the other big

858
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: swing around that was hip hop producers going back to

859
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 1: old crate soul samples. So you stopped. You basically started

860
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 1: hearing acoustic drum sounds on stuff again at J direct

861
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: on stuff, Yeah, directly from the like Beastie Boys, like

862
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: Paul's boutique. Those were drums samples as opposed to being

863
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 1: like a Lynn drum or a DM like an Oberheim

864
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 1: or one of those media's drum machines that you hear

865
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 1: on like rock the Bells, like like some of the

866
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: deaf jam stuff is very drum machine heavy um. And

867
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: then it came back around as all things must, like

868
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: you start hearing him and and Jack the stuff that

869
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: Jack antonoff, Jack antonof loves a gated snare, loves gated reverbs.

870
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: So you have heard that sound start to come around,

871
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: but it is uh yes, instantly screams eighties. Sorry, I

872
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 1: went on a long ramp there just as you were

873
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 1: about to say, I have something to say about that.

874
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, I mean I you know what I mean.

875
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: First of all, I hate that sound. Well, it's deeply unnatural.

876
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 1: That's what's so interesting to me about it. That's just

877
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: it's cold. It literally it makes me feel cold. It

878
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 1: was like something about it. That's but that's why it's

879
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: so revolutionaries. You hear these guys who were like, you

880
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: know that the sound of their entire musical life had

881
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: been like would drums in a room? And then if

882
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 1: you get bored with that and you're suddenly like, I

883
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,760
Speaker 1: want to reinvent the way that drums are literally conceived

884
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 1: of and heard. You can imagine flipping overhearing like that

885
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: those ear those Prince records or something like this, and

886
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: being like what is that like dubstep or like how

887
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: we like like it's the shock of the new. It

888
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: just immediately became very overused. Yes, well, I mean he

889
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:32,720
Speaker 1: you questioned why Paul would use something that really screamed pop,

890
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: you know, dance pop when he was went all the

891
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: way to Africa to try to get the most authentic

892
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: sounds for these records. I think that he wanted it

893
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: to be a blend. I mean, I think he wanted

894
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: it like so much of the I don't think he

895
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: wanted to do a you know, field recording this type

896
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,839
Speaker 1: of album. I think he wanted to show that there

897
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 1: were connections between these types of music that wouldn't have

898
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 1: been obvious and That's why I won't get too later.

899
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 1: When he made zydeco record, things are requarded with Los Lobos,

900
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: who had kind of a Mexican Southwestern influence of sounds.

901
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 1: He wanted to show the connection between all these unlike

902
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 1: genres of music. So I think that that was you

903
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,439
Speaker 1: called it a choice earlier in a in a way

904
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 1: that was sort of meant to be sarcastic. But I

905
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: think that there was a choice. I think that was

906
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: the reason why he did it. I think that it

907
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: was added this the most modern, cutting edge element that

908
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: he possibly could at that time to try to make

909
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 1: something new. I mean, it seems like the kind of

910
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 1: thing that um I mean not so much with the

911
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,720
Speaker 1: gated drums, but a lot of the stuff that David

912
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: Byrne was doing around then too. He did get Adrian

913
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 1: to the common factor. There's Adrian Blue coming into to

914
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 1: make stupid guitar sounds. Adrian Blue played the uh the

915
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: riff on you can call me Al, which is next

916
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: to those big gated drum sounds. It's probably the other

917
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 1: most Eighties sound on this whole record those because that's

918
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 1: a guitar playing a sack synth. Well, needless to say

919
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:04,919
Speaker 1: Paul Simon felt somewhat relieved by the time he left

920
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 1: South Africa uh In about two weeks he returns with

921
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 1: rough tracks, but it would ultimately become Graceland, The Boy

922
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: and the Bubble, I know what I know, gun Boots

923
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: Crazy Lot Volume two and I believe you can call

924
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: me al Accounts Ferry. When that one was started, he

925
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: hold up at Manhattan's Hit Factory Studios with certain key

926
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 1: members of the African groups he was recording with, including

927
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: the aforementioned guitarist Ray Pierry, bassist Bakithi Kumalo, and the

928
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 1: drummer Isaac Mitchali, and they fleshed out the tracks together,

929
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 1: and Paul made a point of flying these musicians first class,

930
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 1: having them picked up by white limo drivers and booking

931
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 1: them into top rate hotels and getting the meals at

932
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: five star restaurants. In the documentary We Keep Mentioning Under

933
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,720
Speaker 1: African Skies, he tells the story of the musicians wanting

934
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: to go see Central Park and they asked Paul where

935
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 1: to go to get a permit to go there, and

936
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: Paul somewhat tearfully told them, you know, you don't need

937
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:01,240
Speaker 1: a permit, you just you just go, which is actually

938
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 1: a very sweet, touching moment. Uh. And then Paul decided

939
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:09,360
Speaker 1: to take a quick trip to colonialism HQ London, Ah.

940
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:13,320
Speaker 1: He went to record with and he went to record

941
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: with Ladysmith Black Mambazo, the legendary South African acapella choir.

942
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 1: The group's name comes from the town of Ladysmith, South Africa,

943
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: and Paul had first seen them in the nineteen seventy

944
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: nine BBC documentary called Rhythm of Resistance The Music of

945
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,919
Speaker 1: South Africa, but he didn't really dive into them until

946
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 1: he made his journey to South Africa, and while he

947
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 1: was there, he couldn't get enough. He listened to their

948
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 1: tapes over and over. He said he used to fall

949
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,280
Speaker 1: asleep listening to him during his stay in South Africa,

950
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 1: but adorably, he said, he was too shy to actually

951
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 1: call them to invite them to work together when he

952
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: was recording there, and he explained in the Under African

953
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,959
Speaker 1: Skies documentary, I was bewitched by Ladysmith Black Mambaza because

954
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 1: they were so beautiful. The music was enchanting. It was

955
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: all acapella, and it was so beautiful that I was intimidated.

956
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: They were so good at what they did, and it

957
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 1: was so contained that I didn't know at the time

958
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 1: how I could possibly fit into their world. But eventually

959
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 1: someone associated with Ovation Studios put in the call the

960
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,439
Speaker 1: Ladysmith's leader, Joseph shabbal Alla, to come as a guest

961
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,799
Speaker 1: to one of the final Johannesburg sessions, and Joseph and

962
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 1: Paul got on like a house on fire. Paul some

963
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 1: uch sheepishly asked if he could write Ladysmith Blackman Bozza

964
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 1: was a song and send it to them and see

965
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,359
Speaker 1: if they were interested in collaborating on it, you know,

966
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 1: no strings attached. He said they could change it however

967
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:30,360
Speaker 1: they wanted, and if they didn't want to do it,

968
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: that was fine with him. Joseph shabal Alla said yes,

969
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 1: and the men embraced, and he later said that it

970
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 1: was the first time that he had ever hugged the

971
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 1: white man, which is also very sweet and it's very touching.

972
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,799
Speaker 1: Their relationship would become very close, so close that Paul

973
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 1: would produce Ladysmith's first album from Warner Brothers seven's Shaka Zulu,

974
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 1: which wanted Grammy for Best Traditional Folk Recording. Paul went

975
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 1: back to America and in the summer of nineteen he

976
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 1: wrote the song that would become homeless. He sent a

977
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 1: very simple piano demoo Joseph encouraging him to change it

978
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 1: however he saw fit and they collaborated it, mixing in

979
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 1: Paul's vocals with their own piece that was based around

980
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 1: a Zulu wedding tune. But when it came time to record,

981
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 1: Paul decided he just couldn't handle another trip to Johannesburg.

982
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 1: He said, basically the vibes were too heavy, so they

983
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 1: DeCamp to Abbey Roads Studios in London in October. But

984
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 1: when they actually got into the studio, something wasn't working.

985
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 1: It just wasn't coming together. The tractor wasn't coming together,

986
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 1: and this really upset Ladysmith, Blackman Bozzo because, like so

987
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: many of their comrades in South Africa, they were used

988
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 1: to recording upwards of ten songs a day and the

989
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 1: fact that they couldn't nail one was really hard for them.

990
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 1: So completely by their own accord, these singers went back

991
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 1: to their hotel and they worked until after midnight to

992
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,720
Speaker 1: revise their part of the song. They changed the lyrics

993
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:54,760
Speaker 1: to something that they thought would better fit with Paul's

994
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 1: Homeless theme, and they sang about people living in caves

995
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 1: on the side of a mountain, cold and hungry, using

996
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 1: their fists as pillows. And they practiced until late until

997
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 1: the night, and by the next morning when they returned

998
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 1: to the studio, they had this perfect blend of two

999
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 1: songs from two cultures. And to their absolute delight and

1000
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,720
Speaker 1: complete surprise, because it was a very close knit group,

1001
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 1: Paul actually went into the studio with them and joined

1002
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 1: them around the microphone to sing his delicate vocal takes,

1003
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:26,959
Speaker 1: and Joseph later said, I nearly fainted. I'm thinking, who

1004
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 1: is this guy? He's my brother? Why is he hiding

1005
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 1: himself in America? I call him brother? I find that

1006
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:38,360
Speaker 1: very tough. I love I love Josepha. He died a

1007
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 1: few years back, which is very sad that he's an

1008
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 1: incredible musician. And Paul gave Joseph a credit on Homeless,

1009
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 1: as well as on Diamonds on the soles of his shoes,

1010
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:48,320
Speaker 1: which will talk about a little later. That was a

1011
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 1: late addition to the track listing. He also gave the

1012
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 1: accordion player Ferrairi Motlo Hiloah a credit on The Boy

1013
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,800
Speaker 1: and the Bubble. He gave General M. D. Sharinda credit

1014
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 1: on I Know What I Know, and members of the

1015
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 1: Boyolia Boys credit on gum Boots. This was the re

1016
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 1: recorded version of the instrumental track that Paul first heard

1017
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 1: on the bootleg cassette tape from Heidi Berg and sent

1018
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 1: this whole African adventure into motion in the first place.

1019
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 1: And this type of music is traditionally a favorite of

1020
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: miners and railway workers, and that's why the title is

1021
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:21,359
Speaker 1: gum Boots. It refers to the heavy boots that they

1022
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:24,360
Speaker 1: wear on the job. And hilariously, Paul wasn't all that

1023
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: happy with the Boyolia Boys when he recorded with them,

1024
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:28,879
Speaker 1: and he later said the only reason the song gum

1025
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 1: Boots made the cut for the album was because this

1026
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 1: was the song that got him hooked on this genre

1027
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 1: of music and it felt wrong to not include it.

1028
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 1: He later told song Talk. If it wasn't the gum

1029
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 1: Boots led me into the whole project, I would have

1030
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 1: dropped gum Boots from the album because I think it's

1031
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 1: the weakest link of the South African cuts. And as

1032
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 1: he did with all the South African tracks, Simon gave

1033
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 1: writing credits the original writers of the song and in total,

1034
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 1: that's five out of the eleven tracks on Graceland that

1035
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 1: he split credit for, which was very important to him

1036
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 1: the show that he wasn't just going to Africa and

1037
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,839
Speaker 1: plundering their music solely for his own personal game. And

1038
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:05,640
Speaker 1: in fact, the only grace Lan musicians to openly accuse

1039
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:09,800
Speaker 1: Paul Simon of plagiarism were Americans. The last two tracks

1040
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 1: on the Graceland track list they bucked the South African theme.

1041
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:15,800
Speaker 1: Paul knew after coming back from Johannesburg that needed to

1042
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 1: have a few more songs to pass out the album.

1043
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:22,320
Speaker 1: Uh he attended a Louisiana Occasion music showcase at Carnegie

1044
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:24,920
Speaker 1: Hall and while listening to the music, he noticed a

1045
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: similarity between the accordion centric township music he was making

1046
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: and the zietical sounds of the Gulf Shore. And he

1047
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 1: thought this could be a really cool thematic link between

1048
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 1: these two cultures. And like he said in the Under

1049
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: African Skies documentary, that's really the secret to world music.

1050
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 1: People are able to listen to each other and make

1051
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 1: associations and play their own music that sounds like it

1052
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 1: fits into another culture. So Paul and Roy Halley made

1053
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 1: a trip to Louisiana and a recorded track for what

1054
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 1: became That Was Your Mother in a small studio behind

1055
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 1: the music store with a Zyetegal band called Good Rock

1056
00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 1: and Doopsie and the Twisters. I can't get enough of

1057
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 1: that name. It all seemed to go fine until Grace

1058
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 1: Landon was a hit, by which point Rock and Doopsey

1059
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 1: demanded co writing credit and royalties on That Was Your Mother.

1060
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 1: If you listen closely, you can hear certain similarities in

1061
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: chord structure and the accordion passages to a zydeco song

1062
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 1: called My Baby She's Gone, which is registered to one

1063
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 1: Alton Ruben, Sr. A k A. Rock and Doopsy keep

1064
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 1: on saying as much as the cashtag rock Yes. Now.

1065
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 1: I've seen two explanations for why this case was dropped.

1066
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: One was that Paul Simon's lawyers hired Occasion music scholar

1067
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 1: to look into this claim and found that Bogus or

1068
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 1: two Good Rock and Doopsy decided that the exposure was

1069
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 1: all the payment he needed and decided not to make

1070
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 1: any further claim. I call that the old intern exploitation excuse. Yeah,

1071
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:53,439
Speaker 1: Zydeko is really fascinating. I mean, aside from the fact

1072
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: that there's obviously the similarities between the accordion music and

1073
00:58:56,720 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 1: the stuff that you hear in in some township music. Uh.

1074
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:02,960
Speaker 1: Zydico is wild because nobody has any idea where that

1075
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 1: word actually comes from. Depending on who you ask, it's

1076
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 1: either like a bodlerization of um, a French word for

1077
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 1: green beans, like a proverb LEAs erico song something which

1078
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 1: means like the green beans aren't salted, which is like

1079
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 1: a proverb that they would say like well times are hard,

1080
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:25,960
Speaker 1: like las erko blah blah blah, and that's it was

1081
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 1: transmitted into Zydeico. But there are also scholars who think

1082
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 1: that it comes from some phonemes that you hear in

1083
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 1: different African languages UH that are tied to singing and dancing,

1084
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 1: and you know that part of I mean, this is

1085
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 1: why I'm obsessed with like New Orleans culture and stuff,

1086
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 1: because it is so purely syncretic. I mean, you get

1087
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 1: French creole culture, you get uh coming from Haitian and

1088
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 1: that part of the African dyspora, but then you obviously

1089
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 1: get all the stuff from the slave trade, and then

1090
00:59:55,720 --> 01:00:00,240
Speaker 1: you get like the Acadians and zydeco is h so

1091
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 1: fascinating in that regard, especially the way that they kind

1092
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 1: of conceive of where their beats fall, like when you

1093
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 1: mentioned feeling like off kilter, the way that those accordions work.

1094
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 1: That's something that you see in music that's based kind

1095
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 1: of around the clove a pattern, because you can think

1096
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 1: of different beats as interchangeable because of the way that

1097
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 1: they're all based on repeating two bar patterns. Um. And

1098
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 1: you hear that with like some zydeco music, when with

1099
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:26,760
Speaker 1: like some of their fiddle reels and some of the

1100
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 1: accordion stuff, you can basically hear um how different parts

1101
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 1: of it can come in on the offbeat, the upbeats

1102
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 1: of the downbeats, and it's still squares out the same.

1103
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 1: It's just endlessly interesting to me. You can cut all that.

1104
01:00:41,200 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 1: Um Oh, I love that. I feel like you should

1105
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 1: do the the Los Lobos because I don't know, for

1106
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 1: some reason, I just feel like you would have love

1107
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 1: Los Lobos. They're great. Um. I don't really think they've

1108
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 1: ever really gotten there, do man. I mean. The other

1109
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 1: group that accused Paul Simon of plagiarism was Los Lobos,

1110
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 1: who are long running, incredibly long running m l a

1111
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:09,600
Speaker 1: rock band. They are Mexican American and they had just

1112
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 1: come off of their probably the biggest album, How Would

1113
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 1: the Wolf Survive, which was voted the third best album.

1114
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 1: Was this the Passant job Pole? Yeah? That just behind

1115
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 1: Born in the USA and Purple Rain Um and at

1116
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 1: Warner brother Chief Lenny Waronker's was it Waronker war wrong

1117
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:39,600
Speaker 1: Waronker Lennon Warner at Warner Brothers chief Lenny Waronker's recommendation.

1118
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 1: Paul Simon got in touch with them after the collaboration

1119
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 1: with Good Rock and Dopsy because it felt like a

1120
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 1: good fit accordions why not. But they did not get along.

1121
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 1: They were like already a big band. They were a

1122
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 1: big regional band and this and this record how the

1123
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:04,040
Speaker 1: Wolves of Ive had kind of broken them wider and Uh.

1124
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:06,640
Speaker 1: They didn't like the fact that Simon approached the session

1125
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:09,320
Speaker 1: the same way that he approached the ones in South Africa,

1126
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 1: where he basically said, well, let's jam um. Los Lobos

1127
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:15,560
Speaker 1: band leader Steve Berlin said in two thousand and eight,

1128
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 1: we go into the studio and he had quite literally nothing,

1129
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:23,000
Speaker 1: no ideas, no concepts, and said, well, let's just jam.

1130
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 1: One full day of playing yielded very little, but he

1131
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 1: did take a guitar part on the second day Paul

1132
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 1: Simon that he liked, which supposedly the crux of Los

1133
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:35,360
Speaker 1: Lobos issue is that that was a song that they

1134
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 1: were working on independently. Uh, and that guitar part became

1135
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:42,800
Speaker 1: all around the World or the mid the Fingerprints. According

1136
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:45,680
Speaker 1: to Berlin, what they played in that studio that day

1137
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 1: is exactly what ended up on the record. And so

1138
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:53,760
Speaker 1: because Paul had credited the African musicians that he worked with,

1139
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 1: Los Lobos assumed they would also be credited. Ah, this

1140
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:00,919
Speaker 1: did not happen. They were not, aren't they They're still

1141
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 1: not on their Yeah, no, they're not on there now.

1142
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 1: And and this Steve Berlin guy is still just about it.

1143
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 1: He's quoted as saying it was not a pleasant deal

1144
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 1: for us. I mean, he quite literally, and in no

1145
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 1: way do I exaggerate when I say he stole the

1146
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 1: song from us. And he claims that he brought the

1147
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 1: matter to Paul's attention, and he was met with the

1148
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 1: less than conciliatory response of Sumi, see what happens. And

1149
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 1: Steve Berlin holds a grudge to this day, dubbing Paul

1150
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 1: Simon quote the world's biggest prick. Simon, however, disagrees. He

1151
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:37,040
Speaker 1: says that it was a case of opportunism after the

1152
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 1: album became a huge hit. He's quoted as saying, the

1153
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 1: album came out and we heard nothing. Then six months

1154
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:43,960
Speaker 1: passed and grace Land had become a hit, and the

1155
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:46,040
Speaker 1: first thing I heard about the problem was when my

1156
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 1: manager got a lawyer's letter. I was shocked. So that

1157
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 1: was the story of the music on grace Land. But

1158
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 1: there was still a lot of work to be done

1159
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 1: to shape these recordings into what you hear on the record.

1160
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 1: Like we said earlier, this was just raw Mati aerial

1161
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 1: with no melody in mind yet And in a sense,

1162
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 1: grace Land was edited together, not unlike a film, and

1163
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:09,120
Speaker 1: the process was long and very laborious. As engineer Roy

1164
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:12,240
Speaker 1: Halley said, the task was enormous. There were no songs,

1165
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 1: no arrangements. We were looking at months of editing, editing, editing,

1166
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 1: taking things from here on a track, putting them there,

1167
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:21,600
Speaker 1: take this out and recopying things. Paul had to turn

1168
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 1: the tracks into songs and he had to put words

1169
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:26,680
Speaker 1: to each one, and in fact, Paul said that he

1170
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 1: considered putting the record out just as it was quote,

1171
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:32,960
Speaker 1: because you can't do any better than this. Anything I

1172
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:35,640
Speaker 1: put on here now will just make it worse. So

1173
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 1: it took a while before I had the courage the

1174
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 1: right over these tracks. And the process was a challenge,

1175
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 1: since you know, they're extremely busy tracks, and finding holes

1176
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 1: for the words was very difficult. If you'll allow us

1177
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:51,800
Speaker 1: our hashtag Rick Beatto corner, will let Paul explain, Uh,

1178
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 1: it was very difficult because patterns that seemed as though

1179
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 1: they should fit together often didn't. I realized that in

1180
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:01,440
Speaker 1: African music the rhythms are always is shifting slightly, and

1181
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 1: that the shape of a melody was often dictated by

1182
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:08,080
Speaker 1: the baseline rather than the guitar. Harmonically, African music consists

1183
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:11,680
Speaker 1: of essentially three major chords. That's why it sounds so happy.

1184
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 1: So I could write almost any melody I wanted in

1185
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:17,640
Speaker 1: a major scale. And Paul walked around carrying a legal

1186
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:20,880
Speaker 1: pad in which he jotted lyrics. Starting in the summer

1187
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 1: of n and Paul and you can probably imagine, was

1188
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:27,360
Speaker 1: something of a perfectionist, which meant that there are many

1189
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 1: cases where he just rewrote songs over and over and

1190
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:33,440
Speaker 1: over again. I think that's what ended up what happening

1191
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 1: with the Boy in the Bubble, and also songs like

1192
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:39,960
Speaker 1: Graceland they took something like three to four months apiece

1193
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:43,160
Speaker 1: to write. I think others like all Around the World

1194
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:46,200
Speaker 1: and Crazy Love came together slightly quicker, but still it

1195
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 1: was a tough task. Yeah, and you know, uh, he

1196
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:53,760
Speaker 1: is wrong there are minor chords in African music. I

1197
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 1: think the other quote that I've read from this specifically

1198
01:05:56,880 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 1: was that in the township stuff and and some of

1199
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:02,040
Speaker 1: the harmonic stuff like He's he was saying like I

1200
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:04,520
Speaker 1: would try and get Ladysmith Black mom Bouser to sing

1201
01:06:04,560 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 1: like minor chords and they couldn't distill hear it, Yeah,

1202
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:12,120
Speaker 1: like the tonality is different there. But that statement is

1203
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:14,920
Speaker 1: not really correct. But uh, he is right about the

1204
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:18,320
Speaker 1: rhythmic stuff. And that's really interesting because you know, drum set,

1205
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 1: the trap set is like a recent invention when you

1206
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:24,480
Speaker 1: compare it to the scope of African music, right, so,

1207
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:27,880
Speaker 1: and neither is the electric bass or electric guitar. So

1208
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:34,360
Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff evolved from um having uh

1209
01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:40,560
Speaker 1: multiple percussion instruments being played like like shakers and handclaps,

1210
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:44,120
Speaker 1: uh being transported over to the drum set, and a

1211
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:47,920
Speaker 1: lot of the interlocking patterns that you actually hear in

1212
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:52,200
Speaker 1: high life music or in township music is what you're

1213
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:57,120
Speaker 1: hearing is guys who took and learned um melodic patterns

1214
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:01,960
Speaker 1: from thumb pianos, and they would split up the treble

1215
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:04,800
Speaker 1: and bass parts of like a thumb piano, of these

1216
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:10,320
Speaker 1: interlocking repeated rhythmic austinados that you hear in thumb piano

1217
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 1: and myrda music. And so the really trebly, jangly guitar

1218
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:16,960
Speaker 1: parts are the treble side of the of like the

1219
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:19,919
Speaker 1: melody side, and then someone would take the bass part

1220
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:23,080
Speaker 1: and put that on bass guitar. So that's why the

1221
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:25,080
Speaker 1: one of the reasons that the music is so complex

1222
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:28,640
Speaker 1: is that, first of all, it comes from drumming first music,

1223
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:31,680
Speaker 1: and second of all, it's basically you know, they were

1224
01:07:31,720 --> 01:07:37,760
Speaker 1: taking centuries of oral and rhythmic vocal music and percussive

1225
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 1: music and transmuting it onto twentieth century instruments. And then

1226
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:44,040
Speaker 1: the other thing that I read that his engineer did

1227
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:45,920
Speaker 1: was he was like, yeah, I threw a bunch of

1228
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:48,479
Speaker 1: like rhythmic delays on everything. So that's why the bass

1229
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:51,120
Speaker 1: lines are crazy on That is because you're actually hearing

1230
01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 1: like like slap back delay and time based delay effects

1231
01:07:56,160 --> 01:08:00,200
Speaker 1: on bass guitar, which you really never never are used

1232
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:03,000
Speaker 1: to do. But because he's such a tremendous bass player

1233
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:05,640
Speaker 1: and he's playing fretless and the basslines are so vocal,

1234
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:08,840
Speaker 1: it almost comes across as acapella music. You hear him,

1235
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:12,480
Speaker 1: it sounds like like somebody's singing bass register parts, but

1236
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:16,400
Speaker 1: it is very slippery, as any bassist who's tried to

1237
01:08:16,439 --> 01:08:20,720
Speaker 1: learn those will tell you was. But Keithi Kamala, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1238
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 1: And he, as I mentioned earlier, was like a big

1239
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:25,920
Speaker 1: fusion guy. I mean he he talked about loving like

1240
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:28,880
Speaker 1: weather Report and listening to like upright bassists. And this

1241
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:32,240
Speaker 1: was back before like fretless electric basses were really such

1242
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:35,160
Speaker 1: a thing, like really manufactured. I mean, the guy who's

1243
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 1: probably most famous for playing fretless electric bass is Jocope

1244
01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 1: has Storious, and he really legitimized the electric bass as

1245
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:46,240
Speaker 1: far as jazz goes. Like everyone was like, oh, you

1246
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:48,880
Speaker 1: have to play upright to play bass, and he basically

1247
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:52,479
Speaker 1: pride the frets out of an offender jazz bass with

1248
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 1: like a putty knife and threw a bunch of boat

1249
01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:58,880
Speaker 1: epoxy on the fretboard because he lived in Florida and

1250
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:01,519
Speaker 1: created like a rutless electric bass out of it and

1251
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:05,400
Speaker 1: got these really beautiful singing, sustained tones on it, and

1252
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:08,840
Speaker 1: then everybody who heard him like flipped their and that's

1253
01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:11,919
Speaker 1: when you start hearing it become a popular thing in fusion,

1254
01:09:12,040 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 1: and then it also kind of crosses into the pop world.

1255
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:16,800
Speaker 1: Pino Palladino is like one of the most famous like

1256
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:19,759
Speaker 1: jazz like session basis of all time. He played fretless,

1257
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:21,960
Speaker 1: not a bunch of stuff in the eighties. Um you

1258
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:23,880
Speaker 1: hear fretless based on a lot of stuff on Kate

1259
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:28,439
Speaker 1: Bush's stuff. Uh, and be keithy is it true? His

1260
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:30,680
Speaker 1: intonation is perfect And that's one of the things that

1261
01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:33,800
Speaker 1: Roy talks about him that sound on sound article, He's like, Oh,

1262
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,320
Speaker 1: that dude had like the best ear I've ever heard

1263
01:09:36,320 --> 01:09:37,920
Speaker 1: from a basis, Like we know that was part of

1264
01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:39,599
Speaker 1: the reason he said he could get away with doing

1265
01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:42,920
Speaker 1: like reverban delay on stuff was because his pitch was

1266
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:45,960
Speaker 1: so perfect on that instrument that you could he could

1267
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:49,760
Speaker 1: throw in these time based processing and it didn't make

1268
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 1: it sound like out of tune. Yeah, great. Just god,

1269
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:55,960
Speaker 1: I can't talk enough about the base on this record.

1270
01:09:56,040 --> 01:09:58,880
Speaker 1: It's so insane, I mean just that. Yeah, the little

1271
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:01,799
Speaker 1: run on diamonds on the soul, the rue shoes, it's incredible.

1272
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:03,320
Speaker 1: Or even just like the way that he throws in

1273
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:06,280
Speaker 1: like like you don't it doesn't sound like a like

1274
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:08,679
Speaker 1: it just doesn't sound like any other kind of bass playing,

1275
01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:11,360
Speaker 1: you know, like just call me out a little like

1276
01:10:12,439 --> 01:10:18,479
Speaker 1: just like he does these big sliding octaves that it

1277
01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:21,440
Speaker 1: just it sounds like like horns. It sounds like like

1278
01:10:21,439 --> 01:10:32,160
Speaker 1: like a low brass section. This is really incredible stuff. Um. Anyway, Well,

1279
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:34,720
Speaker 1: back to the lyrics. Paul Simon got a lot of

1280
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:38,880
Speaker 1: flak for not making Grace Land his soap box and

1281
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:42,080
Speaker 1: writing lyrics that spread awareness of the human rights violations

1282
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:44,800
Speaker 1: in South Africa, and Paul opted not to do this

1283
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:47,760
Speaker 1: for several reasons, the first and most pragmatic of which

1284
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 1: is that he felt he was a subpar political songwriter. Uh,

1285
01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:54,240
Speaker 1: introspection and relationships were more his thing. He said, I

1286
01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:57,160
Speaker 1: don't think I'm a very good angry songwriter. And it's

1287
01:10:57,200 --> 01:11:01,080
Speaker 1: funny because American Tune one of my favorite songs. It's

1288
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:04,439
Speaker 1: just him being depressed. That was George mcgoverned, that George

1289
01:11:04,520 --> 01:11:07,760
Speaker 1: mcgoverned laws instead of writing something political. He's just like

1290
01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 1: I'm sad now. He also didn't want to make this

1291
01:11:14,680 --> 01:11:17,200
Speaker 1: his soapbox record because he didn't want to risk coming

1292
01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:19,600
Speaker 1: across as preachy. You know, if he tried to go

1293
01:11:19,680 --> 01:11:21,840
Speaker 1: to Bob Dylan, Bob Geldoff root and he thought that

1294
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:24,240
Speaker 1: would be a turn off to listeners. And he explained

1295
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:26,599
Speaker 1: this position in the Under African Sky's documentary. He said,

1296
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:28,360
Speaker 1: are you gonna get up there and say I have

1297
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:31,719
Speaker 1: incredible indignation with the sin of apartheid? Well, that's fine

1298
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:33,800
Speaker 1: if you can say it musically, and if you can't

1299
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:36,120
Speaker 1: say it musically, it's a flop because no one's gonna

1300
01:11:36,120 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 1: want to listen to you. That's the old you get

1301
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:42,400
Speaker 1: more flies with honey approach. I guess he wanted to

1302
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:45,080
Speaker 1: write his best songs and if the songs were good enough,

1303
01:11:45,120 --> 01:11:48,360
Speaker 1: they'd raise awareness in a much more subtle but potent way.

1304
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:50,680
Speaker 1: He explicitly said he didn't want to write the kind

1305
01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:53,320
Speaker 1: of song that Peter Gabriel did with Bico, which was,

1306
01:11:53,720 --> 01:11:56,960
Speaker 1: you know, a very good yet overtly political song about

1307
01:11:56,960 --> 01:12:00,880
Speaker 1: South Africa, and Peter Gabriel himself praised a Land, saying

1308
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:03,799
Speaker 1: it did more to quote help people around the world

1309
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:07,639
Speaker 1: know that there was more to Africa than suffering, which

1310
01:12:07,760 --> 01:12:09,800
Speaker 1: is a good quote. And Paul wanted his album too,

1311
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:12,000
Speaker 1: in his words, touch on the part of the culture

1312
01:12:12,040 --> 01:12:16,799
Speaker 1: where people laughed and life was being celebrated. And finally,

1313
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:18,759
Speaker 1: Paul said that he didn't want to go political because

1314
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:20,760
Speaker 1: he thought it wasn't his place and that it would

1315
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:23,559
Speaker 1: be arrogant to do so. He said, the most sincere

1316
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:26,720
Speaker 1: expression of my respect for these musicians was not to

1317
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:29,760
Speaker 1: go and stand up and say, let me describe your

1318
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:32,400
Speaker 1: plight and your burden. I'll do that for you. My

1319
01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:35,559
Speaker 1: idea was they play their best, I'll play my best.

1320
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:37,839
Speaker 1: They didn't say come in here and tell our story.

1321
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:40,000
Speaker 1: They just said, yeah, you can come in, We'll play

1322
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 1: with you. But still, upon the release of Grace Land

1323
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:47,679
Speaker 1: in many people criticized Paul Simon for not addressing apartheid

1324
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:50,479
Speaker 1: in his lyrics, to which he responded, this is kind

1325
01:12:50,479 --> 01:12:53,120
Speaker 1: of great. Was I supposed to solve things in a song?

1326
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:58,559
Speaker 1: I mean, we could debate the endlessly complicated issues around

1327
01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:00,560
Speaker 1: this all day. But to some up, I'd like to

1328
01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:04,200
Speaker 1: quote this line from Paul that seems to articulate his reasoning.

1329
01:13:04,520 --> 01:13:06,960
Speaker 1: I still think it's the most powerful form of politics,

1330
01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:09,559
Speaker 1: more powerful than saying it right on the money, in

1331
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:12,840
Speaker 1: which case you're usually preaching to the converted. People get

1332
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:15,280
Speaker 1: attracted to the music, and once they hear what's going

1333
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:18,120
Speaker 1: on within it, they say what they're doing that to

1334
01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:22,160
Speaker 1: these people? Yeah, I mean he's right, Bonno was wrong.

1335
01:13:22,360 --> 01:13:26,400
Speaker 1: Rock and roll did not change the world, Like I'm

1336
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:31,640
Speaker 1: sorry it didn't. The world still a nightmare. I don't know,

1337
01:13:31,680 --> 01:13:34,200
Speaker 1: it's interesting, it's really interesting. I there's so much in

1338
01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:36,920
Speaker 1: there about like did he empower the guys to to

1339
01:13:37,280 --> 01:13:39,439
Speaker 1: come over to the to have music careers? I mean,

1340
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:42,519
Speaker 1: certainly Keithie seems to think so, a lot of these

1341
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:46,200
Speaker 1: other guys think so. But you know, I do think yeah,

1342
01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:48,439
Speaker 1: I would have been a much worse record if if

1343
01:13:48,479 --> 01:13:54,040
Speaker 1: it was uh. Part that is really bad? Uh part

1344
01:13:54,080 --> 01:14:03,840
Speaker 1: that is really bad? Boom boom boo, man walks down

1345
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:09,680
Speaker 1: the street. Part that's bad. Show me your papers now

1346
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:28,479
Speaker 1: the highlight of this episode. Uh. The only line that

1347
01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:30,959
Speaker 1: Paul said that he'd written in South Africa was reportedly

1348
01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:33,360
Speaker 1: from The Boy in the Bubble, and those lines were

1349
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:36,400
Speaker 1: the way the camera follows us in slow mo, the

1350
01:14:36,439 --> 01:14:40,080
Speaker 1: way we look to us all, which kind of has

1351
01:14:40,120 --> 01:14:43,400
Speaker 1: a kind of sums up his feelings of being in Johannesburg,

1352
01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:47,840
Speaker 1: very paranoid line I feel like. Musically, Paul spent a

1353
01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:50,479
Speaker 1: long time working on drafts of the lyrics to The

1354
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:52,800
Speaker 1: Boy and the Bubble, only to realize that he'd given

1355
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:54,960
Speaker 1: his best ideas a way to Philip Glass for a

1356
01:14:55,040 --> 01:14:58,400
Speaker 1: project they're working on together. So he went to his

1357
01:14:58,439 --> 01:15:02,080
Speaker 1: buddy phil and asked for his lyrics back, which he

1358
01:15:02,160 --> 01:15:05,240
Speaker 1: promptly got, despite the fact that Philip Glass already had

1359
01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:08,840
Speaker 1: written music around Paul Simon's words. Um, you know, we

1360
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:11,360
Speaker 1: gotta have like a tally of Paul Simon being a

1361
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:14,519
Speaker 1: dick on one column Paul Simon being right on the other.

1362
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:16,960
Speaker 1: But as you pointed up begin the episode, those are

1363
01:15:16,960 --> 01:15:20,599
Speaker 1: not mutually exclusive. But good god, I just I mean,

1364
01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:23,599
Speaker 1: I just I just love the going back to It's

1365
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:25,120
Speaker 1: like when Jeff Bett, you know, wh Jeff back down,

1366
01:15:25,160 --> 01:15:28,800
Speaker 1: I was reading about um how he wrote Superstition with

1367
01:15:28,800 --> 01:15:32,280
Speaker 1: with Stevie Wonder, and Stevie Wonder was like, actually that

1368
01:15:32,360 --> 01:15:35,160
Speaker 1: one's mine, and Jeff Beck was like, what are you

1369
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:39,280
Speaker 1: talking about I want that song or we wrote that together,

1370
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:41,599
Speaker 1: that that was that was a writing session for me

1371
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:44,479
Speaker 1: and and Stevie Wonder was like, uh no, and because

1372
01:15:44,520 --> 01:15:47,960
Speaker 1: I record everything myself and at like all hours of

1373
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:50,519
Speaker 1: the night, he got his version out first and then

1374
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:55,920
Speaker 1: gave Jeff Beck up an inferior song. Song is still

1375
01:15:55,960 --> 01:15:59,519
Speaker 1: good because we've ended his lovers. But dude, the dude

1376
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:03,280
Speaker 1: that do it though, right, Well, the story is that

1377
01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:06,200
Speaker 1: because back was such a perfectionist, he like he took

1378
01:16:06,240 --> 01:16:09,360
Speaker 1: so long to like go over his solos and stuff

1379
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:12,320
Speaker 1: that it basically just took too long. Stevie was like

1380
01:16:13,000 --> 01:16:15,640
Speaker 1: recorded it in like a day and and got his

1381
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:18,920
Speaker 1: version out first, and Jeff Beck was supposedly pretty red

1382
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:23,519
Speaker 1: asked about that. But just imagining Faul Simon showing up

1383
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:25,160
Speaker 1: to Philip Glass and it's like, I need this. Back

1384
01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:30,720
Speaker 1: to Philip Glass, you know, fresh off klanis close, like

1385
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:35,799
Speaker 1: i'stein on the beach Philip class, and so I am

1386
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:40,479
Speaker 1: I need that? So you did write him another one, though?

1387
01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:46,280
Speaker 1: Are we still on for Stickball? Later? While Paul I

1388
01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:49,200
Speaker 1: gotta beat I gotta beat Randy Newman. I got Randy's on.

1389
01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:51,120
Speaker 1: I gotta beat Randy Newman, Will you help me beat

1390
01:16:51,200 --> 01:16:59,360
Speaker 1: Randy Newman? Philip Philip, Mr Philip Glass. But yeah, he

1391
01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:02,320
Speaker 1: got his words back, and that's on the opening track,

1392
01:17:02,360 --> 01:17:04,599
Speaker 1: the Boy and the Bubble, and got the memorable line

1393
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:07,800
Speaker 1: these are the days Americle and wonder. That was reportedly

1394
01:17:07,840 --> 01:17:09,680
Speaker 1: the first song that he worked on in Africa, and

1395
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:10,960
Speaker 1: he said he always knew it was going to be

1396
01:17:10,960 --> 01:17:14,160
Speaker 1: the opener because of that said earlier, that disorienting accordion

1397
01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:17,200
Speaker 1: sound goes a long way in signaling this new to

1398
01:17:17,320 --> 01:17:20,240
Speaker 1: American listeners, at least sound and those drums. It was

1399
01:17:20,240 --> 01:17:23,360
Speaker 1: like an announcement, you haven't heard this before. And the

1400
01:17:23,439 --> 01:17:25,840
Speaker 1: lyrics are very much at odds with the sound of

1401
01:17:25,840 --> 01:17:29,400
Speaker 1: the record. And it takes a tremendous amount of skill

1402
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:32,320
Speaker 1: to mesh a line like the Boy and the Bubble

1403
01:17:32,320 --> 01:17:36,080
Speaker 1: and the baby with the baboon heart with African rhythms. Incredible,

1404
01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:39,400
Speaker 1: And that line it's supposedly inspired I assume by the

1405
01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:42,240
Speaker 1: medical case of baby Faye, who was a little girl

1406
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:46,800
Speaker 1: who underwent a heart transplant soon after birth. Her case

1407
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:49,760
Speaker 1: is sad, so I won't elaborate, And the title is

1408
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:52,200
Speaker 1: thought to be inspired by the medical cases of David

1409
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:56,679
Speaker 1: Vetter and Ted Da Vita, who were heavily immunocompromised kids

1410
01:17:56,680 --> 01:17:59,640
Speaker 1: who had to live in a sterile bubble essentially, and

1411
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:02,880
Speaker 1: their story was later dramatized in the nineteen seventy six

1412
01:18:02,920 --> 01:18:05,479
Speaker 1: made for TV movie The Boy in the Plastic Bubble

1413
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:08,400
Speaker 1: starring John Travolta, which is what got him the role

1414
01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:12,200
Speaker 1: in Greece, and also two thousand ones Bubble Boy starring

1415
01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:14,680
Speaker 1: Jake Gillenhall, which is what got him the role in

1416
01:18:14,760 --> 01:18:17,760
Speaker 1: Donny Dark. And now I'm kidding, um, you know, I

1417
01:18:17,920 --> 01:18:20,160
Speaker 1: I thought this was a specific incident, so I googled it,

1418
01:18:20,200 --> 01:18:23,240
Speaker 1: and there were actually two incidences of bombs and baby

1419
01:18:23,240 --> 01:18:26,439
Speaker 1: carriages making international news that might have inspired Paul Simon,

1420
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:29,680
Speaker 1: at least that are online. One was a two in

1421
01:18:29,720 --> 01:18:32,200
Speaker 1: Belfast and the other, and this is the one that

1422
01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:36,960
Speaker 1: I'm willing to bet money on, was January, so the

1423
01:18:37,040 --> 01:18:41,200
Speaker 1: timing is sort of works out in West Germany. But

1424
01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:43,200
Speaker 1: neither of those news articles. One was from the A

1425
01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:44,960
Speaker 1: P and the other was from I think New York

1426
01:18:45,000 --> 01:18:49,800
Speaker 1: Times mentioned a radio though, so still up in the air.

1427
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:52,599
Speaker 1: If you were a loved one knows which radio Paul

1428
01:18:52,640 --> 01:18:59,920
Speaker 1: Simon was referencing well, benmov you five bucks working at

1429
01:19:00,040 --> 01:19:02,400
Speaker 1: like a quick break. But we'll be right back with more.

1430
01:19:02,479 --> 01:19:17,040
Speaker 1: Too much information and just a moment. Now we've got

1431
01:19:17,040 --> 01:19:19,880
Speaker 1: to talk about the title track, Grace Land, And as

1432
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:22,320
Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, the backing track came from a jam

1433
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:24,320
Speaker 1: that was done in Johannesburg. But the only thing that

1434
01:19:24,360 --> 01:19:27,519
Speaker 1: Paul liked was the sun Record style traveling rhythm played

1435
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:30,439
Speaker 1: by VC Kumalo the drummer, and it reminded him of

1436
01:19:30,479 --> 01:19:34,639
Speaker 1: this country rockabilly Johnny Cash style shuffle, no doubt, sowing

1437
01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:37,400
Speaker 1: the seeds for the Elvis connection that I have nothing

1438
01:19:37,400 --> 01:19:41,479
Speaker 1: to drum on. The train beat they call that, can

1439
01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:43,280
Speaker 1: you do it? You got got heart of things to

1440
01:19:43,360 --> 01:19:48,040
Speaker 1: drum on. No, it's like a recognized no, I'm not

1441
01:19:48,040 --> 01:19:50,120
Speaker 1: gonna do that. No, it is it is it. It's

1442
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:52,719
Speaker 1: like the country. It's like the classic country country took

1443
01:19:52,720 --> 01:19:55,720
Speaker 1: a took. Yeah, but it's supposed to sound like a

1444
01:19:55,760 --> 01:19:59,120
Speaker 1: train going by. So Paul kept the drum pattern and

1445
01:19:59,160 --> 01:20:01,320
Speaker 1: played it for guitar us Ray Perry, who added some

1446
01:20:01,400 --> 01:20:03,760
Speaker 1: chords over top. And we hadn't mentioned this earlier. What

1447
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:06,240
Speaker 1: was unusual that he used a minor chord, which is

1448
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:08,960
Speaker 1: not unheard of but uncommon in John Rust of South

1449
01:20:08,960 --> 01:20:11,160
Speaker 1: African music, and he told Paul that it was the

1450
01:20:11,200 --> 01:20:13,599
Speaker 1: type of chord change that he'd heard in Paul's own music,

1451
01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:15,840
Speaker 1: so he was just imitating him. So that's cool. You

1452
01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:19,920
Speaker 1: get some American South African cross cultural exchange happening. And

1453
01:20:19,960 --> 01:20:21,960
Speaker 1: Paul would say the track for grace Land is a

1454
01:20:22,040 --> 01:20:24,840
Speaker 1: mixture of the two musical worlds, not something that was

1455
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:28,719
Speaker 1: an intellectual decision, but an organic experience. And he rounded

1456
01:20:28,720 --> 01:20:31,799
Speaker 1: out the rhythm section with drummer Isaac Michelle and Bassis

1457
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:35,320
Speaker 1: Pagethi Kumalo, plus a steel guitar over dub from guitarist

1458
01:20:35,360 --> 01:20:38,519
Speaker 1: Demola and a Posiu, and the track reminded Paul these

1459
01:20:38,560 --> 01:20:41,320
Speaker 1: early rock songs that he loves so much. He later said,

1460
01:20:41,320 --> 01:20:44,240
Speaker 1: the track is a beautiful emptiness to it. That's what

1461
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:46,719
Speaker 1: made me think of Sun Records when there was nothing

1462
01:20:46,720 --> 01:20:50,000
Speaker 1: but slapback echo and the song it's a song about

1463
01:20:50,080 --> 01:20:53,679
Speaker 1: commonalities in this case between music, which is ironic because

1464
01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:56,759
Speaker 1: it's a song about his imploding relationship with Carrie Fisher.

1465
01:20:57,240 --> 01:21:00,200
Speaker 1: They were married in three and divorced a year later,

1466
01:21:00,360 --> 01:21:02,639
Speaker 1: but had an on again off a gun relationship throughout

1467
01:21:02,680 --> 01:21:05,400
Speaker 1: the rest of the decade, and Carrie Fisher would later

1468
01:21:05,400 --> 01:21:07,880
Speaker 1: tell Rolling Stone that Grace Land quote has part of

1469
01:21:07,960 --> 01:21:11,000
Speaker 1: us in it, and She's confirmed that lines like she's

1470
01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:13,360
Speaker 1: come back to tell me she's gone, as if I

1471
01:21:13,360 --> 01:21:15,719
Speaker 1: didn't know that, as if I didn't know my own bed,

1472
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:18,040
Speaker 1: as if I had never noticed the way she brushed

1473
01:21:18,040 --> 01:21:21,479
Speaker 1: her hair from her forehead referred to her. She confirmed

1474
01:21:21,479 --> 01:21:23,320
Speaker 1: that she had a habit of brushing her hair from

1475
01:21:23,320 --> 01:21:27,000
Speaker 1: her forehead, and Paul talked about the She's come back

1476
01:21:27,040 --> 01:21:29,280
Speaker 1: to tell me She's gone line and the Robert Hilburn book,

1477
01:21:29,320 --> 01:21:32,760
Speaker 1: saying it's half funny, but it's also heartbreaking about how

1478
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:35,000
Speaker 1: hard it is to break up. It's as if she's

1479
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:37,000
Speaker 1: telling me something I don't know, as if I don't

1480
01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:39,960
Speaker 1: know my own empty bed. And then of course there

1481
01:21:40,040 --> 01:21:42,519
Speaker 1: is the crucial line of the song, losing love is

1482
01:21:42,560 --> 01:21:46,360
Speaker 1: like a window to your heart. Everybody sees your blown apart,

1483
01:21:47,320 --> 01:21:49,479
Speaker 1: and Paul later said when that came out, I thought

1484
01:21:49,479 --> 01:21:51,840
Speaker 1: somebody had punched me in the heart. I just lost

1485
01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:55,080
Speaker 1: my breath. I just sat down. But at the same time,

1486
01:21:55,280 --> 01:21:58,240
Speaker 1: that part of my brain that's a songwriter thinks that's good.

1487
01:22:00,160 --> 01:22:03,200
Speaker 1: There we all have such a great outlet for our

1488
01:22:03,240 --> 01:22:09,000
Speaker 1: most heartbreaking thoughts or the tremendous ability to emotionally compartmentalize

1489
01:22:09,120 --> 01:22:13,799
Speaker 1: your trauma. It's probably no coincidence that the B side

1490
01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:16,400
Speaker 1: to the Graceland single was Hearts and Bones, which was

1491
01:22:16,680 --> 01:22:19,560
Speaker 1: the title track of Paul's previous record, which explored the

1492
01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:24,760
Speaker 1: breakup and an even more stark, emotionally bleak terms. Do

1493
01:22:24,800 --> 01:22:29,439
Speaker 1: you know that song is just devastating, good tough. Why

1494
01:22:29,479 --> 01:22:32,360
Speaker 1: can't you love me for who I am where I am?

1495
01:22:32,400 --> 01:22:35,599
Speaker 1: Because that's not the way the world is, baby, This

1496
01:22:35,680 --> 01:22:38,640
Speaker 1: is how I love you. Baby. That's a hell of

1497
01:22:38,640 --> 01:22:44,200
Speaker 1: a line, thankfully. Carrie Fisher admitted that she felt honored

1498
01:22:44,200 --> 01:22:46,519
Speaker 1: and privileged to be a part of Paul Simon's music,

1499
01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:49,240
Speaker 1: but not all the lines were actually about her. One

1500
01:22:49,280 --> 01:22:52,160
Speaker 1: of my favorite lines in this song, one that's vexed

1501
01:22:52,200 --> 01:22:54,920
Speaker 1: fans for decades, is there's a girl in New York

1502
01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:59,120
Speaker 1: City who calls herself the human trampoline. Turns out it

1503
01:22:59,200 --> 01:23:03,000
Speaker 1: doesn't really mean anything, Paul explained the song talk Magazine.

1504
01:23:03,240 --> 01:23:05,360
Speaker 1: That line came to me when I was walking past

1505
01:23:05,439 --> 01:23:07,760
Speaker 1: the Museum of Natural History for no reason I can

1506
01:23:07,800 --> 01:23:10,120
Speaker 1: think of. It's not related to anybody or anything. Just

1507
01:23:10,120 --> 01:23:14,960
Speaker 1: struck me as funny. Alas thought that was like slut

1508
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:18,240
Speaker 1: shamming or something. Yeah, I kind of did too. I

1509
01:23:18,280 --> 01:23:21,280
Speaker 1: always thought that there was some Yeah. Paul worked really

1510
01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:24,440
Speaker 1: hard on the lyrics to this extremely wordy song, adjusting

1511
01:23:24,439 --> 01:23:27,719
Speaker 1: the phrasing variety of different ways uh, and the section

1512
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:31,200
Speaker 1: that he worked on the longest was the chorus UH.

1513
01:23:31,439 --> 01:23:34,000
Speaker 1: For a time, the working line for that was driving

1514
01:23:34,040 --> 01:23:37,800
Speaker 1: through waste Land, which he ultimately changed to going to Graceland.

1515
01:23:38,479 --> 01:23:40,439
Speaker 1: He was working for a long time under the assumption

1516
01:23:40,439 --> 01:23:42,920
Speaker 1: that Graceland would be a placeholder because he didn't have

1517
01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:46,280
Speaker 1: any intention of making the song an actual tribute to Elvis,

1518
01:23:46,520 --> 01:23:48,120
Speaker 1: But he couldn't get the phrase out of his head,

1519
01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:50,479
Speaker 1: and he decided to not only keep the line but

1520
01:23:50,600 --> 01:23:54,519
Speaker 1: also make an actual pilgrimage to Graceland to quote see

1521
01:23:54,560 --> 01:23:56,800
Speaker 1: if there was something the song was telling me. So,

1522
01:23:56,840 --> 01:23:59,360
Speaker 1: after recording these ideico track that became that was Your

1523
01:23:59,360 --> 01:24:01,479
Speaker 1: Mother and Louis Sienna. In the spring of eight five,

1524
01:24:01,760 --> 01:24:04,519
Speaker 1: Paul drove up Highway sixty one, hence the line the

1525
01:24:04,560 --> 01:24:08,000
Speaker 1: Mississippi Delta was shining like a national guitar, which was

1526
01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:11,840
Speaker 1: first shining like a bottleneck guitar, then shining like an

1527
01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:15,400
Speaker 1: open tune to guitar, and then finally shining like the

1528
01:24:15,520 --> 01:24:18,680
Speaker 1: National guitar, which is the all metal resonator model that

1529
01:24:18,800 --> 01:24:20,720
Speaker 1: famously around this time would have seen on the cover

1530
01:24:20,760 --> 01:24:24,640
Speaker 1: of the Dire Straits record Brothers in Arms. Um. I

1531
01:24:24,680 --> 01:24:27,000
Speaker 1: am following the river down the highway through the cradle

1532
01:24:27,000 --> 01:24:31,880
Speaker 1: of the Civil War. I'm going to Graceland, Graceland in Memphis, Tennessee. Uh.

1533
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:34,720
Speaker 1: Paul Simon loved singing Memphis, Tennessee because it reminded him

1534
01:24:34,720 --> 01:24:38,640
Speaker 1: of a Chuck Berry song. And when he arrived at Graceland,

1535
01:24:38,800 --> 01:24:41,800
Speaker 1: he got no v I P treatment because he hadn't

1536
01:24:41,800 --> 01:24:44,200
Speaker 1: told anyone that he was coming, so he was literally

1537
01:24:44,240 --> 01:24:47,400
Speaker 1: waiting in line, hence the line poor boys and pilgrims

1538
01:24:47,400 --> 01:24:49,920
Speaker 1: with families. He admitted to the Rock and Roll Hall

1539
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:53,599
Speaker 1: of Fame that the visit left him singularly unimpressed until

1540
01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:56,040
Speaker 1: you finished the tour and you come outside and there's

1541
01:24:56,080 --> 01:24:59,559
Speaker 1: Elvis's grave and it said Elvis Presley, whose music has

1542
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:02,320
Speaker 1: touched millions of people around the world. And I read

1543
01:25:02,360 --> 01:25:05,000
Speaker 1: it and I just started to cry. I just thought

1544
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:08,200
Speaker 1: it's really true. This guy who was loved by everybody

1545
01:25:08,320 --> 01:25:10,439
Speaker 1: being in the crowds at Graceland. It's almost like a

1546
01:25:10,439 --> 01:25:13,599
Speaker 1: religious thing about Elvis. So the song started to right itself.

1547
01:25:13,800 --> 01:25:16,400
Speaker 1: It became a narrative. It became about this father and

1548
01:25:16,400 --> 01:25:18,800
Speaker 1: son journey to mend a broken heart, and grace Land

1549
01:25:18,840 --> 01:25:22,519
Speaker 1: became like a metaphor. He had embarked on a physical

1550
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:25,720
Speaker 1: journey to collect ideas in Africa, and he would spiritually

1551
01:25:25,760 --> 01:25:30,080
Speaker 1: journey home to the rock Forefather to revitalize his love

1552
01:25:30,120 --> 01:25:34,200
Speaker 1: for music. And uh, it's funny that he also had

1553
01:25:34,479 --> 01:25:37,960
Speaker 1: harmony singing forefathers. The Everly Brothers singing on this song

1554
01:25:38,040 --> 01:25:41,519
Speaker 1: obviously a huge inspiration to anyone who's sang harmony following them,

1555
01:25:41,880 --> 01:25:46,160
Speaker 1: particularly Simon and Garfunkele. Their first group was when they

1556
01:25:46,160 --> 01:25:50,160
Speaker 1: were called Tom and Jerry, was essentially just Everly Brothers rips.

1557
01:25:50,280 --> 01:25:52,439
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. They used to get Everly's Brothers records and

1558
01:25:52,479 --> 01:25:54,880
Speaker 1: go home to their bedroom and practice together, and they

1559
01:25:54,880 --> 01:25:58,759
Speaker 1: would sing right next to each other and they would watch.

1560
01:25:59,240 --> 01:26:02,120
Speaker 1: They would look into each other's open mouths and study

1561
01:26:02,320 --> 01:26:05,400
Speaker 1: their tongue placement on their palate of their mouths to

1562
01:26:05,439 --> 01:26:09,679
Speaker 1: try to get their voices to blend, almost like a family.

1563
01:26:09,680 --> 01:26:11,599
Speaker 1: You know, they say that a lot of family singers

1564
01:26:11,760 --> 01:26:13,880
Speaker 1: can blend in ways that most people can't. So you

1565
01:26:13,960 --> 01:26:16,080
Speaker 1: got the Beach Boys there, you know, three brothers and

1566
01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:20,120
Speaker 1: a cousin. Because certain minor ways that families have the

1567
01:26:20,160 --> 01:26:23,799
Speaker 1: same speech patterns, it lends itself to having that perfect

1568
01:26:23,800 --> 01:26:27,200
Speaker 1: singing blends um and sounds like they got that artificially.

1569
01:26:27,400 --> 01:26:29,479
Speaker 1: I just wanted to know if that was the Talking

1570
01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:32,599
Speaker 1: Heads reference that, because there's that line in Now You've

1571
01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:36,680
Speaker 1: Melody where he says, singing to my mouth. Oh, I

1572
01:26:36,760 --> 01:26:41,200
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe that's a great question. No, David Burns

1573
01:26:41,200 --> 01:26:46,840
Speaker 1: a weirdo, so maybe the part about traveling with his

1574
01:26:46,920 --> 01:26:49,839
Speaker 1: young son, Harper, who's the child from his first marriage,

1575
01:26:50,200 --> 01:26:54,200
Speaker 1: is a bit of a dramatic poetic license. To hear

1576
01:26:54,240 --> 01:26:56,360
Speaker 1: Paul Simon describe it, he sort of figured out the

1577
01:26:56,400 --> 01:26:57,840
Speaker 1: meaning of the song as he wrote it, and it

1578
01:26:57,880 --> 01:27:00,760
Speaker 1: revealed itself to him line by line. He said, this

1579
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:02,839
Speaker 1: is a search for something and there's been a breakup.

1580
01:27:03,240 --> 01:27:05,600
Speaker 1: Eventually I understood that the song is about why we

1581
01:27:05,640 --> 01:27:08,160
Speaker 1: are traveling to Graceland to find out how to get healed.

1582
01:27:08,439 --> 01:27:10,960
Speaker 1: That's why I named the album Graceland. It seemed to

1583
01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:13,400
Speaker 1: be about finding something that you could call a state

1584
01:27:13,439 --> 01:27:16,160
Speaker 1: of grace, the healing of a deep wound, and that's

1585
01:27:16,200 --> 01:27:18,320
Speaker 1: what was going on in South Africa. There was a

1586
01:27:18,360 --> 01:27:22,920
Speaker 1: deep wound and then an attempted healing process. But his

1587
01:27:23,000 --> 01:27:26,439
Speaker 1: son was not in the car with him. That's so good, though,

1588
01:27:26,520 --> 01:27:30,120
Speaker 1: I mean, somebody who's going through, you know, a personal

1589
01:27:30,240 --> 01:27:35,320
Speaker 1: romantic crisis and using that as a jumping off point.

1590
01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:39,800
Speaker 1: So then yeah, I mean, that's really that's really good.

1591
01:27:40,160 --> 01:27:47,639
Speaker 1: That's why he's Paul Simon and and you're not, um, yeah,

1592
01:27:47,680 --> 01:27:49,439
Speaker 1: you you said it's up there with the Boxer or

1593
01:27:49,439 --> 01:27:52,120
Speaker 1: American Tomb, one of these songs that's an expression of

1594
01:27:52,160 --> 01:27:56,880
Speaker 1: hope that is also simultaneously unfathomably sad. It's it's I

1595
01:27:56,880 --> 01:27:59,439
Speaker 1: mean to me, it's the musical equivalent of Paul Newman

1596
01:27:59,479 --> 01:28:04,360
Speaker 1: and cool Hand Luke getting beaten up and not staying down. Oh,

1597
01:28:04,439 --> 01:28:06,519
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean the Boxers. Maybe a little too

1598
01:28:06,520 --> 01:28:09,000
Speaker 1: on the nose with that. But supposedly that line in

1599
01:28:09,040 --> 01:28:12,599
Speaker 1: the Talking Head song comes from David Byrne seeing uh

1600
01:28:12,720 --> 01:28:16,920
Speaker 1: Inuit throat singers who sing into they sing face to

1601
01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:20,440
Speaker 1: face with people with partners, so that each other's mouths

1602
01:28:20,479 --> 01:28:25,880
Speaker 1: can act as a resonating chamber, which sure can't do

1603
01:28:26,320 --> 01:28:32,439
Speaker 1: post COVID. Yeah, and in the Classic Albums documentary about it,

1604
01:28:32,520 --> 01:28:35,960
Speaker 1: of a very dead pan, Paul Simon says, that's the

1605
01:28:36,000 --> 01:28:38,840
Speaker 1: best song I ever wrote, without a trace of joy

1606
01:28:39,120 --> 01:28:43,479
Speaker 1: in his delivery. But ever the perfectionist, he does say

1607
01:28:43,520 --> 01:28:46,040
Speaker 1: that there's one line he'd rewrite, which is the and

1608
01:28:46,120 --> 01:28:49,880
Speaker 1: my traveling companions are ghosts and empty sockets. I'm looking

1609
01:28:49,920 --> 01:28:53,400
Speaker 1: at ghosts and empties. According to him, those are too

1610
01:28:53,400 --> 01:28:57,840
Speaker 1: many words. So I remember earlier in the episode when

1611
01:28:57,880 --> 01:29:00,439
Speaker 1: I talked about Lauren Michael's being the patrio and saint

1612
01:29:00,520 --> 01:29:05,000
Speaker 1: of Graceland. He introduced Heidieberg to Paul and she's the

1613
01:29:05,000 --> 01:29:07,360
Speaker 1: one who turned him on the South African music. Well.

1614
01:29:07,560 --> 01:29:11,680
Speaker 1: Lord Michaels is also responsible pretty much directly for the

1615
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:14,400
Speaker 1: creation of the standout track Diamonds on the Soles of

1616
01:29:14,400 --> 01:29:17,360
Speaker 1: His Shoes, which was a last minute edition to the album.

1617
01:29:17,479 --> 01:29:20,080
Speaker 1: Grace Land was originally slated for release in the spring

1618
01:29:20,120 --> 01:29:22,960
Speaker 1: of nineteen six, and Lauren Michaels, who had returned to

1619
01:29:23,040 --> 01:29:25,759
Speaker 1: SNL by this point, booked his friend Paul on SNL

1620
01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:28,479
Speaker 1: for a performance on May tenth, along with the Ladysmith

1621
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:32,000
Speaker 1: Black Mambazo, I would imagine making their American TV debut,

1622
01:29:32,720 --> 01:29:36,719
Speaker 1: but Warner Brothers or at least Winnie Wronker, Poor Wronker.

1623
01:29:38,000 --> 01:29:41,559
Speaker 1: One day, we'll get his name a bit Lay and

1624
01:29:41,680 --> 01:29:45,799
Speaker 1: Mohasteen who ran Waterer Brothers. They were both blown away

1625
01:29:45,840 --> 01:29:48,920
Speaker 1: by Grace Lam and they pushed the release back to

1626
01:29:48,960 --> 01:29:52,880
Speaker 1: August instead of April to basically get more time to

1627
01:29:52,920 --> 01:29:56,720
Speaker 1: implement a bigger promotional strategy. So instead of canceling his

1628
01:29:56,840 --> 01:30:00,280
Speaker 1: SNL appearance, uh Lord Michaels kept his buddy all on

1629
01:30:00,439 --> 01:30:02,400
Speaker 1: for that may to give people a taste of what

1630
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:05,519
Speaker 1: would be coming on grace Land, and Lauren said he

1631
01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:08,080
Speaker 1: was a little nervous about the whole Ladysmith Black Mambassa thing.

1632
01:30:08,280 --> 01:30:11,160
Speaker 1: He apparently took policide beforehand and asked, do you really

1633
01:30:11,160 --> 01:30:13,080
Speaker 1: think people are gonna like this? I'm counting on you

1634
01:30:13,120 --> 01:30:19,120
Speaker 1: for that. I was gonna say that wasn't bad. Let

1635
01:30:19,120 --> 01:30:22,479
Speaker 1: me think of Dr Evils, saying thankfully. The performance was

1636
01:30:22,520 --> 01:30:26,439
Speaker 1: met with a rapturous response. In the Under African Sky's documentary,

1637
01:30:26,520 --> 01:30:29,439
Speaker 1: Lauren referred to the occasion as quote a revolution and

1638
01:30:29,520 --> 01:30:32,439
Speaker 1: taste in the United States. It was the synthesis of

1639
01:30:32,479 --> 01:30:35,280
Speaker 1: two cultures and the obvious affection they had for Paul

1640
01:30:35,320 --> 01:30:38,080
Speaker 1: and that Paul had for them. It was the perfect moment,

1641
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:41,320
Speaker 1: and Paul decided to capitalize on that energy and also

1642
01:30:41,400 --> 01:30:43,839
Speaker 1: take advantage of the fact that all the necessary players

1643
01:30:43,880 --> 01:30:46,639
Speaker 1: were in town by going to the Hit Factory recording

1644
01:30:46,680 --> 01:30:49,280
Speaker 1: studio about a week after their SNL performance, and it

1645
01:30:49,360 --> 01:30:51,360
Speaker 1: recalled thinking, you know, well, we're all here, we might

1646
01:30:51,400 --> 01:30:53,920
Speaker 1: as well do another track, and that was pretty much

1647
01:30:53,920 --> 01:30:55,840
Speaker 1: the birth of Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes,

1648
01:30:55,920 --> 01:30:59,439
Speaker 1: which was apparently the first time the acapella group Ladysmith

1649
01:30:59,479 --> 01:31:02,240
Speaker 1: Black Bamba a Soo It ever sung with musicians. Paul

1650
01:31:02,280 --> 01:31:05,120
Speaker 1: worked it up with Lady Smith's leader Joseph Shabalala, who

1651
01:31:05,120 --> 01:31:09,479
Speaker 1: contributed the opening Zulu refrain, which translates roughly to it's

1652
01:31:09,479 --> 01:31:12,920
Speaker 1: not unusual, but in our days we've seen those things happen.

1653
01:31:13,280 --> 01:31:16,600
Speaker 1: They are women, they can take care of themselves, and

1654
01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:18,960
Speaker 1: it's essentially a comment on the independence of women in

1655
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:21,479
Speaker 1: the modern age, which Paul did in his own way,

1656
01:31:21,800 --> 01:31:24,599
Speaker 1: detailing the relationship between the poor boy and the girl

1657
01:31:24,680 --> 01:31:27,000
Speaker 1: who was so rich that she had diamonds on the

1658
01:31:27,000 --> 01:31:29,920
Speaker 1: bottom of her shoes. I thought that was him about

1659
01:31:29,960 --> 01:31:32,760
Speaker 1: him and carry as well, because not like he was

1660
01:31:32,800 --> 01:31:35,240
Speaker 1: poor at that point, but she was way richer than

1661
01:31:35,280 --> 01:31:38,040
Speaker 1: he was. She was Hollywood royalty. He was a five

1662
01:31:38,040 --> 01:31:40,320
Speaker 1: foot three guy from Queens. Well, yeah, but maybe they

1663
01:31:40,320 --> 01:31:45,040
Speaker 1: got together. He was late seventies, after nine, I I know,

1664
01:31:45,240 --> 01:31:47,400
Speaker 1: but maybe. I mean, yeah, I wouldn't put it past him.

1665
01:31:47,439 --> 01:31:50,439
Speaker 1: But the image might have been inspired by the Township

1666
01:31:50,520 --> 01:31:54,839
Speaker 1: music's history as the music of migrant cole and diamond workers.

1667
01:31:55,680 --> 01:31:58,719
Speaker 1: And I'm also really intrigued by the possible double meaning

1668
01:31:58,880 --> 01:32:01,880
Speaker 1: in the songs title. On one hand, it could show

1669
01:32:01,920 --> 01:32:04,519
Speaker 1: that she's frivolous and spoiled and she's got these incredibly

1670
01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:07,080
Speaker 1: expensive things that she can't even see just on the

1671
01:32:07,080 --> 01:32:09,960
Speaker 1: tolls of her shoes. But also, diamonds are the hardest

1672
01:32:09,960 --> 01:32:12,759
Speaker 1: substance on earth, and they would make excellent shoe soles,

1673
01:32:13,120 --> 01:32:16,160
Speaker 1: So in a way, it's almost a ruthlessly practical thing

1674
01:32:16,240 --> 01:32:19,320
Speaker 1: to do. So maybe it's like you know something that

1675
01:32:19,400 --> 01:32:21,360
Speaker 1: you know, what good does the diamond do? Really when

1676
01:32:21,360 --> 01:32:22,800
Speaker 1: it's on your finger, it doesn't do anything. If it's

1677
01:32:22,800 --> 01:32:25,759
Speaker 1: on the soles of your shoes, at least it's being useful,

1678
01:32:25,960 --> 01:32:28,800
Speaker 1: So I don't know. I also feel this way. My

1679
01:32:28,840 --> 01:32:30,599
Speaker 1: dad and I would get into debate. Wasn't a debate

1680
01:32:30,640 --> 01:32:34,000
Speaker 1: because we both agreed the fifty nine street Bridge song

1681
01:32:34,120 --> 01:32:36,559
Speaker 1: slow down, you move too fast. You need to make

1682
01:32:36,680 --> 01:32:39,960
Speaker 1: the morning or moment. I forget if it's morning or moment.

1683
01:32:40,760 --> 01:32:44,240
Speaker 1: Last we both always thought, don't slow down, you gotta

1684
01:32:44,240 --> 01:32:46,599
Speaker 1: make the most of the moments. Speed up. I take

1685
01:32:46,640 --> 01:32:56,879
Speaker 1: it for all it's worth feeling groovy. Sorry sorry anyhow,

1686
01:32:57,160 --> 01:32:59,120
Speaker 1: Diamonds on the soles of her shoes was a triumph

1687
01:32:59,280 --> 01:33:02,439
Speaker 1: and Paul Ladysmith Black Bambabs have performed during their second

1688
01:33:02,439 --> 01:33:06,840
Speaker 1: appearance on us SO Noel on November to why to

1689
01:33:07,000 --> 01:33:11,280
Speaker 1: claim it is a truly joyous TV moment. It's it's

1690
01:33:11,320 --> 01:33:13,240
Speaker 1: hard to find online, which is kind of a bummer,

1691
01:33:13,240 --> 01:33:15,519
Speaker 1: but it's in the Under African Skies documentary. I think

1692
01:33:15,520 --> 01:33:18,840
Speaker 1: all the SNL stuff is on Peacock. I oh, well then,

1693
01:33:18,840 --> 01:33:22,719
Speaker 1: I mean, because that's where I found Keith Jarrett's otherwise

1694
01:33:22,800 --> 01:33:26,160
Speaker 1: unpublic as I have to, I'm bringing this back to

1695
01:33:26,240 --> 01:33:29,080
Speaker 1: Keith Jarrett. That's where I found Keith Jarrett's SNL performance.

1696
01:33:29,080 --> 01:33:30,880
Speaker 1: Which is it the full episode or is it the

1697
01:33:30,880 --> 01:33:34,120
Speaker 1: actual performance? Because it's a full, it's a full well

1698
01:33:34,160 --> 01:33:37,360
Speaker 1: you have too, sorry, Okay, so you should watch this

1699
01:33:37,479 --> 01:33:41,320
Speaker 1: November six. That version of Domonds on the Solsifers Shoes

1700
01:33:41,520 --> 01:33:44,920
Speaker 1: is just like there's so it just is one of

1701
01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:47,479
Speaker 1: the most joyful musical performances I've ever seen on a

1702
01:33:47,600 --> 01:33:49,639
Speaker 1: on a TV show. It's so nice. It's up there

1703
01:33:49,680 --> 01:33:53,120
Speaker 1: for me with like, not in terms of historical importance necessarily,

1704
01:33:53,120 --> 01:33:54,840
Speaker 1: but in terms of seeing like the Beatles on the

1705
01:33:54,880 --> 01:33:57,599
Speaker 1: Sullivan They're just so happy, all of them. It's really sweet.

1706
01:33:58,000 --> 01:34:02,040
Speaker 1: Grace Slam was released on August six. The cover art

1707
01:34:02,120 --> 01:34:06,439
Speaker 1: depicts a sixteenth century Ethiopian Christian icon from the Peabody

1708
01:34:06,520 --> 01:34:12,320
Speaker 1: Essex Museum in Salem, Massachusetts. Boy, there's uh, there's a lane.

1709
01:34:12,360 --> 01:34:15,839
Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff in there. Uh, Salem mass

1710
01:34:15,960 --> 01:34:19,120
Speaker 1: Art Museum holding a piece of Ethiopian Christian art, a

1711
01:34:19,160 --> 01:34:23,320
Speaker 1: lot to unpack their people down the street from Hocus

1712
01:34:23,360 --> 01:34:28,559
Speaker 1: Pocus filming locations. Dissertations have been written on less. It

1713
01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:31,920
Speaker 1: was Paul Simon's first million selling record since There Goes Ryman.

1714
01:34:32,040 --> 01:34:35,400
Speaker 1: Simon in nineteen seventy three went on sell fourteen million

1715
01:34:35,400 --> 01:34:37,799
Speaker 1: copies worldwide. One album of the Year at the Grammys

1716
01:34:37,840 --> 01:34:40,080
Speaker 1: and Record of the Year for the song grace Land.

1717
01:34:40,160 --> 01:34:46,120
Speaker 1: In eight the popularity was almost universal. Robert Christal's Village

1718
01:34:46,160 --> 01:34:51,280
Speaker 1: Voice review opened with opposed, though I am to universalist humanism,

1719
01:34:51,280 --> 01:34:55,320
Speaker 1: this is a pretty damn universal record. I like it.

1720
01:34:55,400 --> 01:34:57,200
Speaker 1: You start that out with an intellectual one and then

1721
01:34:57,280 --> 01:35:00,320
Speaker 1: go hick, go Jeff Foxworthy, And this is the damn

1722
01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:04,200
Speaker 1: universal record within the democratic bounds of pop accessibility. It's

1723
01:35:04,240 --> 01:35:10,679
Speaker 1: biculturalism is striking, engaging, unprecedented, sprightly yet spunky, fresh yet friendly,

1724
01:35:11,040 --> 01:35:15,360
Speaker 1: so strange, so sweet, so willful, so radically incongruous and

1725
01:35:15,400 --> 01:35:18,960
Speaker 1: plainly beautiful. A In the Voices year end poll of

1726
01:35:19,000 --> 01:35:23,000
Speaker 1: the US pop critics, grace Land was voted the best album,

1727
01:35:23,040 --> 01:35:25,280
Speaker 1: and no less an authority than Joe Strummer told The

1728
01:35:25,400 --> 01:35:28,080
Speaker 1: l A Times shortly after its release, I don't like

1729
01:35:28,160 --> 01:35:31,760
Speaker 1: the idea that people who aren't adolescents make records. Adolescents

1730
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:35,080
Speaker 1: make the best records, except for Paul Simon, except for

1731
01:35:35,120 --> 01:35:37,960
Speaker 1: grace Land. He's hit a new plateau there, but he's

1732
01:35:37,960 --> 01:35:41,000
Speaker 1: writing to his own age group. Graceland is something new.

1733
01:35:41,479 --> 01:35:43,559
Speaker 1: That song to his son is just as good as

1734
01:35:43,560 --> 01:35:46,840
Speaker 1: blue suede Shoes before you were born dude, when life

1735
01:35:46,880 --> 01:35:50,200
Speaker 1: was great. That's just as good as blue suede shoes,

1736
01:35:50,280 --> 01:35:52,800
Speaker 1: and that is a new dimension. Rolling Stone was a

1737
01:35:52,840 --> 01:35:55,640
Speaker 1: little more subdued, with David Frick offering the passive aggressive

1738
01:35:55,680 --> 01:35:59,360
Speaker 1: observation that Graceland had become quote a daily soundtrack in

1739
01:35:59,479 --> 01:36:02,160
Speaker 1: urban yep be condos and suburban living rooms and on

1740
01:36:02,400 --> 01:36:06,320
Speaker 1: radio airwaves from Australia to Zimbabwe. Much of the commercial

1741
01:36:06,360 --> 01:36:08,599
Speaker 1: success of the record, though, is thanks to Paul having

1742
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:12,519
Speaker 1: scored his first MTV hit with you Can Call Me Al.

1743
01:36:12,880 --> 01:36:14,479
Speaker 1: I bet you were wondering when we're going to finally

1744
01:36:14,560 --> 01:36:17,040
Speaker 1: mention al. I can't believe that we made it this

1745
01:36:17,120 --> 01:36:18,960
Speaker 1: far without really talking about you Can Call Me Out.

1746
01:36:19,600 --> 01:36:23,040
Speaker 1: That lead riff came from Stamella guitarist Ray Peery, though

1747
01:36:23,080 --> 01:36:25,719
Speaker 1: I've seen mixed reports about when they first started working

1748
01:36:25,720 --> 01:36:27,880
Speaker 1: on the song, but I believe it began as a

1749
01:36:27,960 --> 01:36:30,559
Speaker 1: jam during the Johannesburg sessions and they finished it up

1750
01:36:30,560 --> 01:36:32,920
Speaker 1: in New York and one of the producers at Ovation

1751
01:36:33,040 --> 01:36:35,880
Speaker 1: Studios supposedly told Paul the next day, you know, I

1752
01:36:35,880 --> 01:36:38,120
Speaker 1: think he recorded one of your hits yesterday. So it

1753
01:36:38,200 --> 01:36:41,120
Speaker 1: was clear early on that this song had potential. And

1754
01:36:41,200 --> 01:36:43,200
Speaker 1: I didn't realize this, but the parts that I assume

1755
01:36:43,280 --> 01:36:47,120
Speaker 1: we're saxes were actually a guitar synth played by Adrian Blue,

1756
01:36:47,200 --> 01:36:51,240
Speaker 1: who was known to me mostly for playing with David Bowie. Well,

1757
01:36:51,280 --> 01:36:54,240
Speaker 1: it's funny because he's also on the Talking Heads record.

1758
01:36:54,280 --> 01:36:57,559
Speaker 1: I mean you know it's when his remaining light eighty

1759
01:36:58,760 --> 01:37:05,000
Speaker 1: three eighty yeah, so it remaining light is arguably another

1760
01:37:05,240 --> 01:37:09,800
Speaker 1: touchstone in white people stealing African stuff. Um, but yeah,

1761
01:37:09,880 --> 01:37:12,479
Speaker 1: Adrian Blue is also on that record. Uh that is

1762
01:37:12,600 --> 01:37:15,800
Speaker 1: I was I believe I was correct. That is the

1763
01:37:15,800 --> 01:37:19,680
Speaker 1: the Roland uh G five oh five or g R

1764
01:37:19,840 --> 01:37:22,599
Speaker 1: three hundred guitar synth. It is a synth on there,

1765
01:37:22,600 --> 01:37:24,360
Speaker 1: but it does have real horns layered over it. I

1766
01:37:24,360 --> 01:37:27,040
Speaker 1: read in the Sound on Sound article. So, but the

1767
01:37:27,080 --> 01:37:30,200
Speaker 1: coolest bit of studio trickery on al is the slap

1768
01:37:30,240 --> 01:37:34,080
Speaker 1: based solo played by Buck Keithi Kumala, supposedly on his birthday,

1769
01:37:34,520 --> 01:37:36,320
Speaker 1: which would have made it during the New York sessions.

1770
01:37:36,920 --> 01:37:38,479
Speaker 1: The thing that's cool about it, other than the fact

1771
01:37:38,479 --> 01:37:41,680
Speaker 1: that it whips, is that Paul loved the sounds so

1772
01:37:41,760 --> 01:37:45,200
Speaker 1: much that he decided to artificially extend the solo by

1773
01:37:45,240 --> 01:37:48,120
Speaker 1: playing the tape backwards, so the result is a musical

1774
01:37:48,160 --> 01:37:51,519
Speaker 1: pal drome with one measure, the descending phrase mirrored by

1775
01:37:51,560 --> 01:37:55,200
Speaker 1: the reverse ascending portion. I'll probably punch that in here.

1776
01:38:01,880 --> 01:38:06,160
Speaker 1: It was enormously effective and technically impossible to reproduce live

1777
01:38:06,240 --> 01:38:08,880
Speaker 1: exactly has heard on the record, which I think is cool.

1778
01:38:09,240 --> 01:38:11,960
Speaker 1: It's a very beadily thing to do. Doesn't stop people

1779
01:38:11,960 --> 01:38:16,360
Speaker 1: from trying, though you can see. No, I can't play

1780
01:38:16,400 --> 01:38:23,040
Speaker 1: the single one of these lines I've tried. So let's

1781
01:38:23,040 --> 01:38:24,800
Speaker 1: talk about the meaning of you can Call Me Al,

1782
01:38:25,000 --> 01:38:27,840
Speaker 1: starting with the title. It stemmed from an incident that

1783
01:38:27,840 --> 01:38:30,400
Speaker 1: took place at a party poll that attended years before

1784
01:38:30,479 --> 01:38:33,600
Speaker 1: with his then wife Peggy Harper. During the evening, they

1785
01:38:33,720 --> 01:38:37,679
Speaker 1: chatted with the French composer conductor Pierre Boulet, and apparently

1786
01:38:37,680 --> 01:38:39,759
Speaker 1: this man was hard of hearing, because as he prepared

1787
01:38:39,800 --> 01:38:42,200
Speaker 1: to make his exit, he tapped Paul on the shoulder

1788
01:38:42,200 --> 01:38:44,479
Speaker 1: and said, I'm sorry, I have to leave AL and

1789
01:38:44,520 --> 01:38:47,760
Speaker 1: give my best to Betty. And Paul found this foot

1790
01:38:47,760 --> 01:38:50,599
Speaker 1: pall extremely funny and it became a running joke between

1791
01:38:50,640 --> 01:38:54,000
Speaker 1: the then couple. Peggy would call Paul Al, and he'd

1792
01:38:54,040 --> 01:38:57,080
Speaker 1: call Peggy Betty. The memory came back to Paul as

1793
01:38:57,120 --> 01:38:59,479
Speaker 1: he started writting the words to rape Herri's Riff, and

1794
01:38:59,520 --> 01:39:02,800
Speaker 1: he saw overall is basically about a self obsessed man

1795
01:39:03,280 --> 01:39:06,120
Speaker 1: in the midst of a midlife crisis and seeking purpose

1796
01:39:06,160 --> 01:39:09,639
Speaker 1: and redemption and ultimately finding it becoming more self aware.

1797
01:39:09,720 --> 01:39:12,880
Speaker 1: It's not all that dissimilar to the themes of the

1798
01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:17,000
Speaker 1: song Grace Lam. In the documentary Under African Skies, he explained,

1799
01:39:17,120 --> 01:39:18,960
Speaker 1: you can Call Me Al is really the story of

1800
01:39:19,040 --> 01:39:21,880
Speaker 1: somebody like me who goes to Africa with no idea

1801
01:39:22,160 --> 01:39:25,960
Speaker 1: and ends up having an extraordinary spiritual experience. He then

1802
01:39:25,960 --> 01:39:28,519
Speaker 1: goes essentially line by line to explain the song, so

1803
01:39:28,680 --> 01:39:31,519
Speaker 1: allow me to paraphrase. It opens with something akin to

1804
01:39:31,560 --> 01:39:34,200
Speaker 1: an old vaudeville joke. Man walks down the Street's an

1805
01:39:34,240 --> 01:39:36,599
Speaker 1: old setup. Guy walks into a bar. Man walks down

1806
01:39:36,600 --> 01:39:38,680
Speaker 1: the street, and he wonders, why am I soft in

1807
01:39:38,720 --> 01:39:40,679
Speaker 1: the middle? The rest of my life is so hard.

1808
01:39:41,000 --> 01:39:43,680
Speaker 1: It's word play. Don't end up a cartoon in a

1809
01:39:43,720 --> 01:39:46,960
Speaker 1: cartoon graveyard. He's writing about himself and how he doesn't

1810
01:39:47,000 --> 01:39:49,160
Speaker 1: want to be irrelevant, and you know, in a way,

1811
01:39:49,160 --> 01:39:51,960
Speaker 1: I fear's death. The second versus a variation on the

1812
01:39:52,000 --> 01:39:55,000
Speaker 1: first with another borsch belt style joke, a short span

1813
01:39:55,040 --> 01:39:57,880
Speaker 1: of attention and a short little span of attention. It's uh,

1814
01:39:58,200 --> 01:40:01,559
Speaker 1: it's a dick joke, folks. Sorry. Uh. He's racked with fear.

1815
01:40:01,640 --> 01:40:04,320
Speaker 1: What if I die here? Who will be my role model?

1816
01:40:04,840 --> 01:40:06,719
Speaker 1: And you're not supposed to have sympathy for this guy?

1817
01:40:06,760 --> 01:40:08,880
Speaker 1: By the second verse, Paul said because by this point,

1818
01:40:08,880 --> 01:40:11,479
Speaker 1: he said, way too many complaints, and the chorus is

1819
01:40:11,560 --> 01:40:14,240
Speaker 1: essentially him talking to a woman a partner will make

1820
01:40:14,280 --> 01:40:16,519
Speaker 1: an alliance. I'll look out for you if you'll look

1821
01:40:16,520 --> 01:40:18,600
Speaker 1: out for me and guard against the things that we

1822
01:40:18,680 --> 01:40:22,719
Speaker 1: have to fear. And the verses we should be gun

1823
01:40:22,720 --> 01:40:25,320
Speaker 1: fairly straight at the beginning of the song have started

1824
01:40:25,320 --> 01:40:27,920
Speaker 1: getting more and more abstract by verse three, and, as

1825
01:40:27,960 --> 01:40:31,519
Speaker 1: Paul himself explained during the Graceland episode of the Classic

1826
01:40:31,520 --> 01:40:34,479
Speaker 1: Albums documentary series, by the third verse, the lyrics have

1827
01:40:34,560 --> 01:40:37,800
Speaker 1: become abstract but autobiographical, as he describes his journey to

1828
01:40:37,840 --> 01:40:40,880
Speaker 1: South Africa where he had a spiritual experience. A man

1829
01:40:40,960 --> 01:40:43,759
Speaker 1: walks down the street. It's a street in a strange world.

1830
01:40:43,840 --> 01:40:46,719
Speaker 1: Maybe it's the third world, maybe it's his first time around.

1831
01:40:46,760 --> 01:40:49,639
Speaker 1: He doesn't speak the language, he holds no currency, he's

1832
01:40:49,640 --> 01:40:52,280
Speaker 1: a foreign man. He's surrounded by the sound, the sound

1833
01:40:52,280 --> 01:40:54,760
Speaker 1: of cattle in the marketplace. Interesting to me that the

1834
01:40:54,760 --> 01:40:58,120
Speaker 1: more autobiographical he gets, the more abstract he feels he

1835
01:40:58,160 --> 01:41:01,519
Speaker 1: has to be. That's just an interesting insight into Paul

1836
01:41:01,560 --> 01:41:05,240
Speaker 1: Simon's psychology. But then he looks around and around and

1837
01:41:05,320 --> 01:41:08,680
Speaker 1: lets the experience move him. He sees angels in the architecture,

1838
01:41:09,040 --> 01:41:11,760
Speaker 1: spinning in infinity, and by that point there's nothing left

1839
01:41:11,760 --> 01:41:16,160
Speaker 1: to say but amen. In Hallelujah and the video for

1840
01:41:16,160 --> 01:41:18,360
Speaker 1: the song, it's become one of the most recognizable with

1841
01:41:18,439 --> 01:41:22,000
Speaker 1: the eighties, and once again it's owed pretty much directly

1842
01:41:22,040 --> 01:41:25,280
Speaker 1: to Lauren Michaels. Paul used his time doing the SNL

1843
01:41:25,280 --> 01:41:28,000
Speaker 1: performance to make a video for you Can Call Me Al,

1844
01:41:28,320 --> 01:41:30,479
Speaker 1: which was the first single off of Grace Land, but

1845
01:41:30,600 --> 01:41:32,639
Speaker 1: he wasn't happy with the result because it was basically

1846
01:41:32,680 --> 01:41:35,040
Speaker 1: just a boring performance clip of him on the Rockefeller

1847
01:41:35,080 --> 01:41:37,559
Speaker 1: Center stage. So Lauren played the song to Chevy Chase

1848
01:41:37,560 --> 01:41:40,360
Speaker 1: while they were hanging out on Long Island and suggested

1849
01:41:40,439 --> 01:41:43,320
Speaker 1: that Chevy do something for the video, and Paul and

1850
01:41:43,400 --> 01:41:48,080
Speaker 1: Chevy been old friends since SNL launched in nine. Uh, Paul,

1851
01:41:48,120 --> 01:41:50,439
Speaker 1: I think was a guest on the second episode of SNL.

1852
01:41:50,920 --> 01:41:52,479
Speaker 1: I think that was the one where he reunited with

1853
01:41:52,560 --> 01:41:54,519
Speaker 1: Art Garf uncle, And I think he was in a

1854
01:41:54,520 --> 01:41:57,280
Speaker 1: bunch of sketches in that episode two. But Paul in

1855
01:41:57,320 --> 01:42:00,479
Speaker 1: the early years of SNL was a very familiar faces

1856
01:42:00,479 --> 01:42:03,360
Speaker 1: A great sketch of him. It was a video sketch

1857
01:42:03,360 --> 01:42:07,240
Speaker 1: of him playing basketball with said Julius Irving. I think

1858
01:42:07,240 --> 01:42:09,640
Speaker 1: it was Duck. I think it was Julius Irving. And

1859
01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:12,519
Speaker 1: it's so funny because I mean, Paul's like five two

1860
01:42:12,640 --> 01:42:17,200
Speaker 1: five ft three. Have you never seen this? Oh it's great?

1861
01:42:17,680 --> 01:42:20,040
Speaker 1: Oh no, it was a Harlem glob trotter Connie Hawkins.

1862
01:42:20,479 --> 01:42:23,920
Speaker 1: It's so funny. And they have like, you know, the

1863
01:42:23,920 --> 01:42:26,880
Speaker 1: whistling Sweet Georgia Brown playing in the background and like,

1864
01:42:27,320 --> 01:42:29,240
Speaker 1: and I think the whole joke is Paul Sivag just

1865
01:42:29,320 --> 01:42:33,320
Speaker 1: schools this like seven ft tall guy. And then there's

1866
01:42:33,360 --> 01:42:36,200
Speaker 1: the one where he starts singing, um, he sings something

1867
01:42:36,200 --> 01:42:40,800
Speaker 1: in a turkey turkey suit. Yeah, I think it's still crazy.

1868
01:42:40,800 --> 01:42:43,720
Speaker 1: I think you're right. Yeah. So yeah, Paul Simon and

1869
01:42:43,800 --> 01:42:47,160
Speaker 1: Chevy Chase go way way back. So Lord Michael said,

1870
01:42:47,160 --> 01:42:49,880
Speaker 1: will be funny to pair them for a video, and

1871
01:42:50,040 --> 01:42:52,880
Speaker 1: Lauren came up with the idea, along with director Gary Weiss,

1872
01:42:52,920 --> 01:42:56,360
Speaker 1: of having Chevy just ferociously lip sinking the song while

1873
01:42:56,439 --> 01:42:59,360
Speaker 1: mugging and gesturing and basically doing everything in his power

1874
01:42:59,400 --> 01:43:03,240
Speaker 1: to steal this spotlight from Paul Simon, who looks on glumily,

1875
01:43:03,320 --> 01:43:06,800
Speaker 1: completely upstaged. And Paul himself had the idea of being

1876
01:43:06,800 --> 01:43:09,240
Speaker 1: the one the lug large instruments around in the room

1877
01:43:09,280 --> 01:43:13,360
Speaker 1: while Chevy mind which is medium funny for me. The

1878
01:43:13,360 --> 01:43:15,760
Speaker 1: only thing funnier than sad Paul is when they pick

1879
01:43:15,840 --> 01:43:19,240
Speaker 1: up the horns and start doing the motown style dance moves.

1880
01:43:19,280 --> 01:43:22,280
Speaker 1: It's the video is very funny. MTV put the video

1881
01:43:22,280 --> 01:43:24,880
Speaker 1: in the heavy rotation and the song eventually reached number

1882
01:43:24,880 --> 01:43:28,400
Speaker 1: twenty three on the Hot One, and when Paul played

1883
01:43:28,439 --> 01:43:32,439
Speaker 1: the huge New York City Central Park concert at Chevy

1884
01:43:32,520 --> 01:43:34,920
Speaker 1: joined him on stage to perform their horn dance from

1885
01:43:34,920 --> 01:43:38,240
Speaker 1: the video. So for keeping score, Lauren Michaels is directly

1886
01:43:38,320 --> 01:43:41,479
Speaker 1: or indirectly responsible for turning Pole to South African music.

1887
01:43:41,720 --> 01:43:43,920
Speaker 1: Getting diamonds on the soles of her shoes written getting

1888
01:43:43,920 --> 01:43:46,200
Speaker 1: that you can call me ol video made and spreading

1889
01:43:46,200 --> 01:43:49,000
Speaker 1: the music to the masses with two highly rated performances

1890
01:43:49,040 --> 01:43:52,400
Speaker 1: on SNL in less than six months. So that's pretty crazy.

1891
01:43:52,479 --> 01:43:55,439
Speaker 1: Lauren Michaels, I hate to say it, kind of the

1892
01:43:55,560 --> 01:44:03,400
Speaker 1: m v P of grace Land statement. It doesn't give

1893
01:44:03,400 --> 01:44:07,280
Speaker 1: me any pleasure to say that. But well, as we

1894
01:44:07,320 --> 01:44:09,840
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier in the episode, going to South Africa in

1895
01:44:09,880 --> 01:44:12,720
Speaker 1: the mid eighties was a whiskey move because it violated

1896
01:44:12,840 --> 01:44:17,960
Speaker 1: a literal international mandate. So now we've reached the find

1897
01:44:18,000 --> 01:44:21,439
Speaker 1: out portion of the episode, in which Paul Simon deals

1898
01:44:21,439 --> 01:44:26,800
Speaker 1: with the fallout of this complex socio political situation. For

1899
01:44:26,880 --> 01:44:30,280
Speaker 1: all the success and praise that greeted Graceland, some critics

1900
01:44:30,280 --> 01:44:33,360
Speaker 1: felt it amounted to a kind of musical colonialism. White

1901
01:44:33,360 --> 01:44:36,840
Speaker 1: man going to Africa strip mining raw materials and bringing

1902
01:44:36,840 --> 01:44:38,679
Speaker 1: it home to the West where it could be refined

1903
01:44:39,040 --> 01:44:41,840
Speaker 1: and sold at a massive profit. That was proud of

1904
01:44:41,880 --> 01:44:46,880
Speaker 1: that line. It's good, yeah, especially with there's having a

1905
01:44:46,920 --> 01:44:52,400
Speaker 1: song with diamonds in it. Yeah, African record, bold choice, Paul,

1906
01:44:53,960 --> 01:44:57,760
Speaker 1: your family back down here. It's big, big, big, like

1907
01:44:57,840 --> 01:45:02,320
Speaker 1: up the boom boom? Uh does zo what does he say?

1908
01:45:02,439 --> 01:45:08,680
Speaker 1: Big helicopter? He has bling bang. Yeah, she's christ I

1909
01:45:08,720 --> 01:45:10,280
Speaker 1: had when I worked at v H one. I think

1910
01:45:10,320 --> 01:45:12,240
Speaker 1: I think the last time we did a blood Diamond

1911
01:45:12,320 --> 01:45:15,040
Speaker 1: bit on this show, I did the same thing. By

1912
01:45:15,120 --> 01:45:17,400
Speaker 1: job there was basically writing a listical day and one

1913
01:45:17,400 --> 01:45:22,080
Speaker 1: of them was Leonardo DiCaprio's most ridiculous accents and ah

1914
01:45:22,120 --> 01:45:24,320
Speaker 1: he has quite a few from the Aviator doing Howard

1915
01:45:24,400 --> 01:45:27,560
Speaker 1: Hughes and Jake or Hoover his boss that accent for

1916
01:45:27,600 --> 01:45:33,320
Speaker 1: the departed, but of course blood Diamond was high high

1917
01:45:33,320 --> 01:45:38,080
Speaker 1: in that list. Cultural appropriation, particularly at the time, was

1918
01:45:38,280 --> 01:45:40,920
Speaker 1: something of not only unknown concept but a gray area,

1919
01:45:41,320 --> 01:45:44,040
Speaker 1: but for many involved in South African politics, it was

1920
01:45:44,120 --> 01:45:49,599
Speaker 1: not violating. The cultural boycott was pretty absolute and UH

1921
01:45:49,760 --> 01:45:53,080
Speaker 1: could be interpreted and often was as tacit support of

1922
01:45:53,120 --> 01:45:57,960
Speaker 1: the brutal racist regime. James Victor Gable, the former Ghanaian

1923
01:45:58,000 --> 01:46:00,320
Speaker 1: ambassador to the u N, declared at the time him,

1924
01:46:00,360 --> 01:46:03,520
Speaker 1: when he goes to South Africa, Paul Simon bows to apartheid.

1925
01:46:04,000 --> 01:46:07,400
Speaker 1: He lives in designated hotels for whites. He spends money

1926
01:46:07,400 --> 01:46:09,639
Speaker 1: the way whites have made it possible to spend money there.

1927
01:46:09,960 --> 01:46:12,720
Speaker 1: The money he spends goes to look after white society,

1928
01:46:12,840 --> 01:46:16,840
Speaker 1: not to the townships funnily enough or not funnily enough.

1929
01:46:16,840 --> 01:46:18,320
Speaker 1: I don't know why I went with that, sayway. Linda

1930
01:46:18,400 --> 01:46:22,680
Speaker 1: Ronstat's appearance Friend of the Pod Linda Ronstat. Uh, that's

1931
01:46:22,680 --> 01:46:24,760
Speaker 1: the first time we've used that this episode. I can't

1932
01:46:24,760 --> 01:46:26,400
Speaker 1: believe we're going for three hours and haven't done a

1933
01:46:26,400 --> 01:46:28,599
Speaker 1: friend of the pod. Uh. Friend of the Pod. Linda

1934
01:46:28,680 --> 01:46:32,679
Speaker 1: ron Stats appearing on the album also sparked a major controversy.

1935
01:46:33,280 --> 01:46:37,040
Speaker 1: Not phrases you usually see attached to eat one another

1936
01:46:37,120 --> 01:46:42,400
Speaker 1: Linda Ronstat end controversy so much we all do Jordan's Okay,

1937
01:46:43,600 --> 01:46:45,640
Speaker 1: find me someone who hates Linda ron Stat, and I

1938
01:46:45,680 --> 01:46:49,920
Speaker 1: find you a cold dead, not beating heart. She do

1939
01:46:50,040 --> 01:46:53,160
Speaker 1: added with Paul on the song Under African Skies, which

1940
01:46:53,360 --> 01:46:55,439
Speaker 1: had a bit of lyrical input from her as well.

1941
01:46:56,000 --> 01:46:59,080
Speaker 1: Um she grew up in the American Southwest and drew

1942
01:46:59,080 --> 01:47:03,080
Speaker 1: parallels between that and the African sunsets. As she said

1943
01:47:03,080 --> 01:47:05,920
Speaker 1: in the classic album's documentary for Graceland, Paul called me

1944
01:47:06,000 --> 01:47:08,080
Speaker 1: up one day and said, I'm having a hard time writing.

1945
01:47:08,400 --> 01:47:12,320
Speaker 1: Give me some images from your childhood. I said, okay,

1946
01:47:12,360 --> 01:47:14,040
Speaker 1: I took all my words back from Phil and I

1947
01:47:14,120 --> 01:47:19,480
Speaker 1: still something I need something from you. Come on, already,

1948
01:47:19,520 --> 01:47:23,599
Speaker 1: won't return my calls. All the Africans are tapped out.

1949
01:47:25,320 --> 01:47:30,080
Speaker 1: Los Lobos. Los Lobos is pissed. I've gone down the

1950
01:47:30,120 --> 01:47:34,720
Speaker 1: oppression list to white woman and I've landed you. Give

1951
01:47:34,760 --> 01:47:38,320
Speaker 1: me your childhood. Please. It's a shame that one won't

1952
01:47:38,320 --> 01:47:43,320
Speaker 1: make it the air. That's a good bit, she told him. Okay,

1953
01:47:43,400 --> 01:47:46,000
Speaker 1: I grew up in Tucson near the San Xavier Mission.

1954
01:47:46,400 --> 01:47:49,280
Speaker 1: I've loved that place and considered it my spiritual homeland.

1955
01:47:49,520 --> 01:47:51,840
Speaker 1: I told him about the mission, and he included that

1956
01:47:51,960 --> 01:47:54,720
Speaker 1: part in the song. It is an interesting it's a

1957
01:47:54,760 --> 01:47:56,880
Speaker 1: good conceit. It seems to tie you with this theme

1958
01:47:56,920 --> 01:48:00,880
Speaker 1: of trying to get through lines between music of different cultures.

1959
01:48:00,920 --> 01:48:04,240
Speaker 1: But Linda Ronstad had performed at the aforementioned South African

1960
01:48:04,280 --> 01:48:08,200
Speaker 1: luxury resort Sun City in May of nine three, which

1961
01:48:08,280 --> 01:48:12,040
Speaker 1: was the venue was located in a semi independent and

1962
01:48:12,120 --> 01:48:17,479
Speaker 1: semi fictitious territory that starts with a b uh. Though

1963
01:48:17,520 --> 01:48:21,519
Speaker 1: officially integrated, the area was effectively the South African equivalent

1964
01:48:21,520 --> 01:48:25,080
Speaker 1: of the North American Indian Reservation, where many displaced black

1965
01:48:25,120 --> 01:48:29,640
Speaker 1: individuals had been relocated, and either Ronstad misunderstood the geopolitical

1966
01:48:29,680 --> 01:48:32,200
Speaker 1: complexities of the region, or had fallen victim to a

1967
01:48:32,240 --> 01:48:36,679
Speaker 1: promoter's clever ruse to lower international superstars to their resort.

1968
01:48:37,280 --> 01:48:40,560
Speaker 1: But in any event, she accepted the five hundred thousand

1969
01:48:40,600 --> 01:48:45,080
Speaker 1: dollar fee the page a well in eight three money,

1970
01:48:45,240 --> 01:48:48,439
Speaker 1: which caused a controversy. Linda gott defensive at first, saying

1971
01:48:48,439 --> 01:48:50,920
Speaker 1: she was booked as a last minute replacement act and

1972
01:48:50,960 --> 01:48:53,000
Speaker 1: had only two days to decide whether or not to

1973
01:48:53,040 --> 01:48:57,280
Speaker 1: play there. And like Paul Simon, she called her black friends.

1974
01:48:59,240 --> 01:49:01,360
Speaker 1: She called her friend is at Motown? Did you make

1975
01:49:01,400 --> 01:49:06,600
Speaker 1: that up? No? She caught her friends at Motown and

1976
01:49:06,640 --> 01:49:10,320
Speaker 1: said it's this okay? And they said yes. And then

1977
01:49:10,439 --> 01:49:14,479
Speaker 1: she got defensive. Also like Paul Simon, she told Rolling Stone,

1978
01:49:14,520 --> 01:49:16,960
Speaker 1: the last place for a boycott is in the arts.

1979
01:49:17,280 --> 01:49:21,800
Speaker 1: I don't like being told I can't go somewhere. Linda,

1980
01:49:21,960 --> 01:49:24,160
Speaker 1: though she repeatedly said that her appearances were not an

1981
01:49:24,240 --> 01:49:28,240
Speaker 1: endorsement of the South African government, Ronstadt received worldwide condemnation

1982
01:49:28,520 --> 01:49:31,800
Speaker 1: for the concerts. As we said earlier, Paul himself had

1983
01:49:31,800 --> 01:49:34,559
Speaker 1: previously turned out offers to perform its on City, but

1984
01:49:34,640 --> 01:49:38,240
Speaker 1: his decision to feature Linda prominently on this particular album

1985
01:49:38,400 --> 01:49:41,760
Speaker 1: came with some implications. Nelson George of Billboard liking it

1986
01:49:41,800 --> 01:49:46,080
Speaker 1: to using gasoline to put out birthday candles. That's good.

1987
01:49:46,360 --> 01:49:49,760
Speaker 1: Robert Christcu predictably was another cynic. Even if the lyric

1988
01:49:49,800 --> 01:49:53,519
Speaker 1: called for total us divestiture, Linda Runstat's presence on grace

1989
01:49:53,560 --> 01:49:55,080
Speaker 1: Land would be a slap in the face to the

1990
01:49:55,080 --> 01:50:00,080
Speaker 1: world anti apartheid movement, A deliberate, considered headstrong slap in

1991
01:50:00,080 --> 01:50:04,280
Speaker 1: the face, So that's not good. Paul tried to do

1992
01:50:04,360 --> 01:50:07,160
Speaker 1: some damage control by citing the invitation from the South

1993
01:50:07,200 --> 01:50:10,599
Speaker 1: African Black Musicians Union and insisting that all the musicians

1994
01:50:10,600 --> 01:50:13,040
Speaker 1: were there on their own free will and paid fairly.

1995
01:50:13,280 --> 01:50:17,559
Speaker 1: They split food, lodging, transport, and songwriting credits. He said,

1996
01:50:17,600 --> 01:50:19,759
Speaker 1: I wasn't going there to take money out of the country.

1997
01:50:20,080 --> 01:50:22,519
Speaker 1: I wasn't being paid for playing to a white audience.

1998
01:50:22,720 --> 01:50:24,880
Speaker 1: I was recording with black groups and paying them and

1999
01:50:24,880 --> 01:50:28,160
Speaker 1: sharing my royalties with them. And guitarist Rape Pierry agreed.

2000
01:50:28,200 --> 01:50:30,680
Speaker 1: In the documentary Classic Albums grace Land, he said it

2001
01:50:30,720 --> 01:50:33,439
Speaker 1: was two way traffic. We used Paul as much as

2002
01:50:33,479 --> 01:50:36,760
Speaker 1: Paul used us. There was no abuse. He came at

2003
01:50:36,760 --> 01:50:38,680
Speaker 1: the right time, and he was what we needed to

2004
01:50:38,720 --> 01:50:42,479
Speaker 1: bring our music into the mainstream market. Over fourteen million

2005
01:50:42,520 --> 01:50:45,680
Speaker 1: people in the world now no South African music. And

2006
01:50:45,760 --> 01:50:49,240
Speaker 1: Mkeithie Kumala, who played bass with Paul for decades, I

2007
01:50:49,280 --> 01:50:52,120
Speaker 1: think by this point is said, Grace land changed my life.

2008
01:50:52,560 --> 01:50:55,840
Speaker 1: That was my passport to the world. And Joseph Shabalala

2009
01:50:56,040 --> 01:50:58,559
Speaker 1: of Ladysmith Black Mambazo has said that the group gave

2010
01:50:58,600 --> 01:51:02,720
Speaker 1: Paul the Zulu name boot Landela, meaning the one who

2011
01:51:02,760 --> 01:51:06,080
Speaker 1: opens the way, and Paul also cided the fact that

2012
01:51:06,080 --> 01:51:10,679
Speaker 1: he consulted with Harry Belafonte and Quincy Jones in his defense.

2013
01:51:11,439 --> 01:51:13,639
Speaker 1: Paul also went to speak before a crowd of African

2014
01:51:13,640 --> 01:51:17,559
Speaker 1: American students at Washington d C's Howard University in January

2015
01:51:18,520 --> 01:51:22,040
Speaker 1: n a appearance that rapidly turned into a debate with

2016
01:51:22,080 --> 01:51:24,360
Speaker 1: the crowd, many of whom thought that this rich white

2017
01:51:24,360 --> 01:51:26,559
Speaker 1: guy had made a ton of money singing on top

2018
01:51:26,600 --> 01:51:30,920
Speaker 1: of South African singles. Basically, one sophomore music major asked them,

2019
01:51:31,080 --> 01:51:34,360
Speaker 1: how can you justify taking over this music? For too long,

2020
01:51:34,600 --> 01:51:37,880
Speaker 1: artists have stolen African music. It happened with jazz. You're

2021
01:51:37,880 --> 01:51:40,920
Speaker 1: telling me the Gershwin story of Africa. I'll go there,

2022
01:51:40,920 --> 01:51:43,120
Speaker 1: I'll listen to the stuff, and I'll culturally diffuse it.

2023
01:51:43,800 --> 01:51:46,360
Speaker 1: And in response, Paul said, I went as a musician

2024
01:51:46,439 --> 01:51:49,320
Speaker 1: and I interacted with other musicians. It's true there is

2025
01:51:49,360 --> 01:51:51,479
Speaker 1: another level to the story, but this is the beginning,

2026
01:51:51,560 --> 01:51:54,680
Speaker 1: a sincere beginning. I tried to introduce this music to

2027
01:51:54,680 --> 01:51:57,679
Speaker 1: people who have never heard it before. Sincerity doesn't seem

2028
01:51:57,720 --> 01:52:00,719
Speaker 1: to be held in high regard. I'm here, I'm listening.

2029
01:52:01,000 --> 01:52:04,240
Speaker 1: I respond the best I can, at least them into dialogue.

2030
01:52:04,439 --> 01:52:06,680
Speaker 1: I have always intended that this music they used to

2031
01:52:06,720 --> 01:52:09,880
Speaker 1: serve the African people. What do you think about that?

2032
01:52:10,120 --> 01:52:14,160
Speaker 1: It's it's alarmingly close to the apologies people make today

2033
01:52:14,160 --> 01:52:16,920
Speaker 1: when they're forced into some kind of racially tinged corner.

2034
01:52:17,800 --> 01:52:21,320
Speaker 1: You know, I am learning and participating in a dialogue.

2035
01:52:21,800 --> 01:52:24,360
Speaker 1: I am here, I am listening. Yeah, I see you,

2036
01:52:24,400 --> 01:52:28,920
Speaker 1: and I respect you. Have some more money, please? Well.

2037
01:52:28,920 --> 01:52:31,559
Speaker 1: The debate heated up when Paul announced a six month

2038
01:52:31,600 --> 01:52:36,799
Speaker 1: world tour entitled Graceland the African Concert. He didn't need

2039
01:52:37,000 --> 01:52:40,480
Speaker 1: he didn't need the suffix there just just the Graceland

2040
01:52:40,479 --> 01:52:42,880
Speaker 1: tour have been fine, okay anyway. It would feature his

2041
01:52:43,000 --> 01:52:46,400
Speaker 1: crew of South African session players and Ladies with Black Mambazo,

2042
01:52:46,640 --> 01:52:49,920
Speaker 1: as well as South African exiles Hugh Meskela and Miriam

2043
01:52:50,000 --> 01:52:55,120
Speaker 1: mcaba and as Dawns. Paul found himself on the u

2044
01:52:55,320 --> 01:52:59,519
Speaker 1: N Anti Apartheid committees boycott violators list, putting him in

2045
01:52:59,600 --> 01:53:03,920
Speaker 1: some pretty unsavory company. He wrote an impassioned letter to

2046
01:53:03,960 --> 01:53:06,280
Speaker 1: the u N and at a press conference the day

2047
01:53:06,280 --> 01:53:08,919
Speaker 1: before the tour was due to start, he proudly announced

2048
01:53:08,960 --> 01:53:10,920
Speaker 1: that the UN committee had removed his name from the

2049
01:53:10,960 --> 01:53:16,439
Speaker 1: boycott list. Controversy over right. No there was criticism and

2050
01:53:16,479 --> 01:53:20,200
Speaker 1: even active protests from anti Apartheis groups all over the world.

2051
01:53:20,560 --> 01:53:22,880
Speaker 1: When the tour hit London, there are picketers as well

2052
01:53:22,920 --> 01:53:25,680
Speaker 1: as an open letter from some big name rock musicians,

2053
01:53:25,880 --> 01:53:29,840
Speaker 1: including Paul Weller and Billy Bragg. They and others were

2054
01:53:29,880 --> 01:53:31,840
Speaker 1: angry that Paul had gone to South Africa in the

2055
01:53:31,880 --> 01:53:34,320
Speaker 1: first place, and we're also angry by the lack of

2056
01:53:34,400 --> 01:53:37,599
Speaker 1: overt protest music, which we touched on earlier, which made

2057
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:40,080
Speaker 1: it seem as though he just took their music but

2058
01:53:40,240 --> 01:53:43,680
Speaker 1: lacked the courage to back their basic cause. As with

2059
01:53:43,720 --> 01:53:46,519
Speaker 1: the Graceland record, Paul thought that the tour was the

2060
01:53:46,560 --> 01:53:49,840
Speaker 1: political statement, you know, especially considering the addition of Hugh

2061
01:53:49,880 --> 01:53:52,679
Speaker 1: Meskela and Mary Mackaba, both of whom have been living

2062
01:53:52,680 --> 01:53:55,880
Speaker 1: in exile I think for decades. Both of them aggressively

2063
01:53:55,960 --> 01:53:58,840
Speaker 1: wanted to tour as well. And Marie Mcaba, I don't

2064
01:53:58,840 --> 01:54:00,559
Speaker 1: think she was even allowed back in the country to

2065
01:54:00,560 --> 01:54:04,240
Speaker 1: bury her own daughter. So you know, these people wanted

2066
01:54:04,280 --> 01:54:07,080
Speaker 1: to be out there. So Paul thought the tour would

2067
01:54:07,120 --> 01:54:09,799
Speaker 1: put a face to the atrocities happening in South Africa

2068
01:54:09,840 --> 01:54:13,160
Speaker 1: by allowing audiences across the globe to hear this beautiful

2069
01:54:13,240 --> 01:54:16,960
Speaker 1: music and seeing it being performed by these brilliant, virtuosic,

2070
01:54:17,040 --> 01:54:21,240
Speaker 1: charismatic people. And Paul's staged not one, but two massive

2071
01:54:21,280 --> 01:54:24,599
Speaker 1: outdoor concerts in Zimbabwe, which was as close as Paul

2072
01:54:24,640 --> 01:54:27,760
Speaker 1: could get to South Africa, and at one point during

2073
01:54:27,800 --> 01:54:31,360
Speaker 1: each show, the musicians sang the South African national anthem,

2074
01:54:31,400 --> 01:54:34,240
Speaker 1: which was always a very powerful moment, and initially Paul

2075
01:54:34,240 --> 01:54:36,400
Speaker 1: would step back during this moment because he wanted the

2076
01:54:36,480 --> 01:54:40,280
Speaker 1: musicians to you know, this was there, this was their moment. Again,

2077
01:54:40,280 --> 01:54:42,640
Speaker 1: he didn't want to speak for them, but all the

2078
01:54:42,680 --> 01:54:45,360
Speaker 1: musicians really wanted him to stand with them and sing

2079
01:54:45,400 --> 01:54:47,400
Speaker 1: with them, so they taught him the words and for

2080
01:54:47,440 --> 01:54:49,160
Speaker 1: the rest of the tour he would sing the national

2081
01:54:49,200 --> 01:54:51,880
Speaker 1: anthem alongside them, and this was his way of very

2082
01:54:51,960 --> 01:54:55,600
Speaker 1: quite literally standing with them. And the other side of

2083
01:54:55,600 --> 01:54:58,400
Speaker 1: this argument, as expressed by Dolli Tombo in The Under

2084
01:54:58,400 --> 01:55:02,160
Speaker 1: African Sky's documentary, was that the boycott was designed for

2085
01:55:02,240 --> 01:55:05,440
Speaker 1: South Africans to stand together as a nation and what

2086
01:55:05,640 --> 01:55:08,640
Speaker 1: was good for a few artists was not good for

2087
01:55:08,680 --> 01:55:11,640
Speaker 1: the benefit of the nation. Paul counted this by saying

2088
01:55:11,640 --> 01:55:13,720
Speaker 1: that he was sick of feeling as though artists worked

2089
01:55:13,720 --> 01:55:16,360
Speaker 1: for politicians. To him, it was a slippery slope from

2090
01:55:16,400 --> 01:55:19,040
Speaker 1: asking permission to enter a country to make music to

2091
01:55:19,160 --> 01:55:21,640
Speaker 1: having to get lyrics signed off on in various other

2092
01:55:21,680 --> 01:55:24,360
Speaker 1: forms of censorship. And Paul's quote at the time was

2093
01:55:24,520 --> 01:55:27,280
Speaker 1: what gives governments the right to wear the cloak of morality?

2094
01:55:27,600 --> 01:55:30,480
Speaker 1: Their morality comes out of the barrel of a gun.

2095
01:55:31,560 --> 01:55:35,120
Speaker 1: It's a thorny issue, and both Paul and Dali Tambo

2096
01:55:35,200 --> 01:55:39,200
Speaker 1: basically agreed to disagree with utmost respect for one another.

2097
01:55:39,280 --> 01:55:41,760
Speaker 1: Some twenty five years after the fact, there's a very

2098
01:55:41,800 --> 01:55:46,240
Speaker 1: touching moment in the Under African Skies documentary where they embrace,

2099
01:55:46,440 --> 01:55:50,000
Speaker 1: which is very powerful all of us to say. The

2100
01:55:50,000 --> 01:55:53,280
Speaker 1: grace Land tour was tense. Before every concert. They had

2101
01:55:53,320 --> 01:55:56,160
Speaker 1: bombs sniffing dogs go through each venue, and a few

2102
01:55:56,200 --> 01:55:59,640
Speaker 1: theaters were evacuated and shows postponed because of the bomb threats,

2103
01:56:00,200 --> 01:56:02,400
Speaker 1: and in one city a hand grenade was thrown into

2104
01:56:02,400 --> 01:56:05,000
Speaker 1: a building that housed some sound equipment for the concerts.

2105
01:56:05,880 --> 01:56:08,920
Speaker 1: Paul was obviously distressed by all this, and he would

2106
01:56:08,920 --> 01:56:11,080
Speaker 1: have been much more distressed to know that, at the

2107
01:56:11,160 --> 01:56:13,760
Speaker 1: time his name was on the top of a hit list.

2108
01:56:14,920 --> 01:56:18,480
Speaker 1: He was saved from this tragic fate by apparently none

2109
01:56:18,480 --> 01:56:22,440
Speaker 1: other than Stevie Van Zante of The Street Band. This

2110
01:56:22,520 --> 01:56:26,080
Speaker 1: is according to Stevie van Zante of the E Street Pant.

2111
01:56:26,960 --> 01:56:29,280
Speaker 1: Stevie had been active in the South African freedom movement

2112
01:56:29,320 --> 01:56:33,120
Speaker 1: for many years, founding the Artists United Against Apartheid organization,

2113
01:56:33,520 --> 01:56:36,680
Speaker 1: and he had written, produced, and performed on the protests

2114
01:56:36,680 --> 01:56:39,680
Speaker 1: song Sun City and even As Paul Will sing on it,

2115
01:56:39,920 --> 01:56:42,880
Speaker 1: but Paul had refused. He'd asked to see an early

2116
01:56:42,960 --> 01:56:45,040
Speaker 1: draft of the lyrics, which had called out his friend

2117
01:56:45,120 --> 01:56:49,400
Speaker 1: Linda Ronstaff by name, and he decided no, maybe not,

2118
01:56:49,480 --> 01:56:53,480
Speaker 1: maybe I won't do this uh, and things between Paul

2119
01:56:53,560 --> 01:56:57,600
Speaker 1: and Stevie got pretty cold for a while. Stevie, who

2120
01:56:57,680 --> 01:57:00,320
Speaker 1: it should be said, likes to talk like tell story's,

2121
01:57:00,960 --> 01:57:04,600
Speaker 1: claimed that Paul started questioning his pro Nelson Mandela's stance

2122
01:57:04,640 --> 01:57:08,000
Speaker 1: around this time, going so far as asking Stevie, what

2123
01:57:08,080 --> 01:57:13,920
Speaker 1: are you doing defending this communist? Yeah, I don't know

2124
01:57:14,000 --> 01:57:17,280
Speaker 1: if that's it's just it's just, Stevie says. So. Stevie's

2125
01:57:17,320 --> 01:57:20,400
Speaker 1: anti apartheid activism led him to the South African township

2126
01:57:20,440 --> 01:57:22,800
Speaker 1: of Suato to meet with a group of militant black

2127
01:57:22,920 --> 01:57:27,720
Speaker 1: radicals known as the Azanian People's Organization or as OPPOE.

2128
01:57:28,720 --> 01:57:31,040
Speaker 1: And these people were so hardcore that they had a

2129
01:57:31,120 --> 01:57:33,680
Speaker 1: lengthy discussion with Stevie about whether or not to kill

2130
01:57:33,760 --> 01:57:38,040
Speaker 1: him on the spot simply for showing up again. This

2131
01:57:38,120 --> 01:57:41,000
Speaker 1: is according to Stevie, that's how serious they were about

2132
01:57:41,080 --> 01:57:44,520
Speaker 1: violating the boycott. Stevie later said, I eventually talked him

2133
01:57:44,520 --> 01:57:47,360
Speaker 1: out of killing me. Yeah. Sometimes I really wonder how

2134
01:57:47,360 --> 01:57:54,120
Speaker 1: philography is but very medium to vary. But Stevie eventually

2135
01:57:54,160 --> 01:57:57,160
Speaker 1: gained their trust and was supposedly shown their hit list,

2136
01:57:57,600 --> 01:58:00,520
Speaker 1: with Paul Simon at the top of it. Davy later

2137
01:58:00,520 --> 01:58:02,760
Speaker 1: claimed in spite of my feelings about Paul Simon. I

2138
01:58:02,800 --> 01:58:05,520
Speaker 1: said to them, listen, I understand your feelings about this.

2139
01:58:05,600 --> 01:58:07,800
Speaker 1: I might even share them, but this is not going

2140
01:58:07,840 --> 01:58:10,839
Speaker 1: to help anybody if you knock off Paul Simon. Trust

2141
01:58:10,840 --> 01:58:13,160
Speaker 1: me on this, all right, Let's put that aside for

2142
01:58:13,160 --> 01:58:15,440
Speaker 1: a moment. Give me a year or so to try

2143
01:58:15,480 --> 01:58:17,720
Speaker 1: to do this a different way. I'm trying to actually

2144
01:58:17,800 --> 01:58:20,400
Speaker 1: unify the music community around this, which may or may

2145
01:58:20,440 --> 01:58:22,480
Speaker 1: not include Paul Simon. But I don't want it to

2146
01:58:22,480 --> 01:58:25,440
Speaker 1: be a distraction. I just don't need that distraction right now.

2147
01:58:25,480 --> 01:58:28,000
Speaker 1: I gotta keep my eye on the ball. And they

2148
01:58:28,000 --> 01:58:31,680
Speaker 1: took him off the assassinations list. I'm just picturing, Uh,

2149
01:58:31,720 --> 01:58:34,280
Speaker 1: what's his name for the soprano? Yeah, he's in the

2150
01:58:34,280 --> 01:58:37,280
Speaker 1: Sylvio Dante. Is it funnier if he's as Sylvio Dante,

2151
01:58:37,440 --> 01:58:39,839
Speaker 1: or if it's funnier if he's in the like Gypsy

2152
01:58:39,960 --> 01:58:45,840
Speaker 1: do rag and like Pirate bouse your mindleage may very Yeah.

2153
01:58:46,160 --> 01:58:48,640
Speaker 1: So yeah, he is a great storyteller. I wouldn't put

2154
01:58:48,680 --> 01:58:50,320
Speaker 1: him past him to make up all the stuff just

2155
01:58:50,360 --> 01:58:52,560
Speaker 1: to make Paul feel kind of bad for being a

2156
01:58:52,560 --> 01:58:57,120
Speaker 1: little easily little weasiley, a little stinker to him, just

2157
01:58:57,160 --> 01:59:00,800
Speaker 1: a little stick. That is the perfect Paul Simon, just

2158
01:59:00,840 --> 01:59:04,160
Speaker 1: a little stinker. Paul was being mean to me and

2159
01:59:04,200 --> 01:59:06,440
Speaker 1: you know what, I got his name off the That

2160
01:59:06,440 --> 01:59:09,200
Speaker 1: would be the funniest way for the story, as if

2161
01:59:09,320 --> 01:59:12,920
Speaker 1: Stevie made up this whole story getting Paul's name taking

2162
01:59:12,960 --> 01:59:15,120
Speaker 1: off a hit list in South Africa is the perfect

2163
01:59:15,240 --> 01:59:17,480
Speaker 1: kicker to this is that Stevie made it up to

2164
01:59:17,520 --> 01:59:22,680
Speaker 1: make Paul Simon field. But it had a happy ending,

2165
01:59:23,240 --> 01:59:26,120
Speaker 1: except for the part where Paul Simon almost got killed again.

2166
01:59:26,440 --> 01:59:30,600
Speaker 1: Despite the best efforts of presumably E Street Band bassist

2167
01:59:30,600 --> 01:59:37,640
Speaker 1: Gary tallon Uh or who's the John Mellencamp what other

2168
01:59:37,760 --> 01:59:42,800
Speaker 1: Heartland rocker might have might have helped. The political instruments

2169
01:59:42,800 --> 01:59:45,080
Speaker 1: of apartheid had started to fall apart by the end

2170
01:59:45,120 --> 01:59:49,320
Speaker 1: of the nineteen eighties, and by Nelson Mandela was a freeman.

2171
01:59:50,040 --> 01:59:52,440
Speaker 1: This victory jump started the fight for a majority rule

2172
01:59:52,440 --> 01:59:56,440
Speaker 1: in South Africa and the cultural boycott was lifted. At

2173
01:59:56,440 --> 01:59:58,720
Speaker 1: the invitation of Mandela and with the full support of

2174
01:59:58,720 --> 02:00:01,840
Speaker 1: the African National Congress, Paul Simon and his band were

2175
02:00:01,880 --> 02:00:04,280
Speaker 1: welcomed back to the country for a series of five

2176
02:00:04,320 --> 02:00:09,000
Speaker 1: shows in early making him the first major international artist

2177
02:00:09,120 --> 02:00:12,640
Speaker 1: to perform in a free South Africa. The visit started

2178
02:00:12,640 --> 02:00:16,560
Speaker 1: off well with formal reception from Mandela and quite literally

2179
02:00:16,600 --> 02:00:20,640
Speaker 1: Paul Simon's photo op and shot at Redemption, but then

2180
02:00:20,800 --> 02:00:24,280
Speaker 1: later that night, someone threw three hand grenades into the

2181
02:00:24,320 --> 02:00:27,600
Speaker 1: office of the promoter had booked him, destroying it completely.

2182
02:00:28,120 --> 02:00:31,880
Speaker 1: No one was hurt, but Paul was understandably shaken. A

2183
02:00:31,960 --> 02:00:34,880
Speaker 1: sect of the militant as Appo organization, the one that

2184
02:00:34,960 --> 02:00:38,839
Speaker 1: supposedly had him on his on their hit list, claimed responsibility,

2185
02:00:39,080 --> 02:00:43,200
Speaker 1: and while Stephen Van's aunt had supposedly been successful in

2186
02:00:43,200 --> 02:00:45,720
Speaker 1: persuading them not to kill Paul, they still did not

2187
02:00:45,800 --> 02:00:49,560
Speaker 1: want the concerts to occur. Paul paced his bedroom for

2188
02:00:49,600 --> 02:00:51,760
Speaker 1: hours debating whether or not to cancel the shows, but

2189
02:00:51,840 --> 02:00:55,640
Speaker 1: local security forces insisted that this militant organization consisted of

2190
02:00:55,720 --> 02:00:59,120
Speaker 1: quote three guys in a fax machine. Simon had at

2191
02:00:59,120 --> 02:01:02,440
Speaker 1: clandestine media with representatives of the organization and an effort

2192
02:01:02,480 --> 02:01:05,560
Speaker 1: to negotiate a truce with Paul, offering them a portion

2193
02:01:05,600 --> 02:01:09,400
Speaker 1: of the tours proceeds, but they refused to compromise. Later,

2194
02:01:09,440 --> 02:01:11,840
Speaker 1: they appeared at a press conference to deliver a pretty

2195
02:01:11,920 --> 02:01:15,840
Speaker 1: unambiguous threat. We have always pointed out that should his

2196
02:01:15,920 --> 02:01:19,600
Speaker 1: show go on, there is the potential for violence. Nearly

2197
02:01:19,680 --> 02:01:23,320
Speaker 1: a hundred demonstrators congregated outside the venue before the show

2198
02:01:23,440 --> 02:01:28,320
Speaker 1: on January, many brandishing placards that promised blood on the

2199
02:01:28,320 --> 02:01:32,440
Speaker 1: souls of Simon's shoes. But was that a poetic license

2200
02:01:32,560 --> 02:01:36,839
Speaker 1: or an actual verbatim signage. I think it was actual

2201
02:01:36,880 --> 02:01:40,760
Speaker 1: of a brandom signage. I believe hell yeah, that rules.

2202
02:01:40,800 --> 02:01:44,160
Speaker 1: But ultimately they were dispersed by eight hundred policemen and

2203
02:01:44,200 --> 02:01:47,360
Speaker 1: Paul Simon was finally able to perform for the people

2204
02:01:47,440 --> 02:01:52,040
Speaker 1: who had inspired his music. Well, I think we've just

2205
02:01:52,120 --> 02:01:55,960
Speaker 1: about reached the end of our discussion of Graceland, and

2206
02:01:56,040 --> 02:01:58,960
Speaker 1: give the complexities around this piece of art, I feel

2207
02:01:58,960 --> 02:02:01,240
Speaker 1: wary of tying up this episode in a neat little bow.

2208
02:02:01,840 --> 02:02:04,800
Speaker 1: Something about having a Hollywood happy ending feels inappropriate given

2209
02:02:04,800 --> 02:02:08,760
Speaker 1: the content. But Nelson Mandela was freed, part thought was dismantled,

2210
02:02:08,880 --> 02:02:11,960
Speaker 1: and these songs continue to touch people's hearts and serve

2211
02:02:12,000 --> 02:02:14,480
Speaker 1: as an access point for an untold number of people

2212
02:02:14,560 --> 02:02:17,280
Speaker 1: to discover the sounds of not only South Africa, but

2213
02:02:17,320 --> 02:02:20,520
Speaker 1: many different cultures. And you know that sounds like a

2214
02:02:20,560 --> 02:02:24,080
Speaker 1: happy ending to me. Paul Simon later said of Graceland,

2215
02:02:24,200 --> 02:02:27,560
Speaker 1: it made a very powerful point. Gently. It wasn't an

2216
02:02:27,560 --> 02:02:30,400
Speaker 1: album that said there's terrible evil here in South Africa.

2217
02:02:30,880 --> 02:02:33,800
Speaker 1: It said there's incredible beauty here. And that's a very

2218
02:02:33,800 --> 02:02:38,560
Speaker 1: powerful point. Yes, I agree, No, there's I mean, I

2219
02:02:38,560 --> 02:02:40,720
Speaker 1: would just say that for anyone who is interested in

2220
02:02:40,720 --> 02:02:43,520
Speaker 1: this stuff, the Indestructible Beat of Soto compilation is a

2221
02:02:43,560 --> 02:02:45,760
Speaker 1: really good place to start. Um. There's also a bunch

2222
02:02:45,800 --> 02:02:51,040
Speaker 1: of compilations called rough Guides that do a different sort

2223
02:02:51,080 --> 02:02:54,720
Speaker 1: of stylistic breakdown of these different things. There's a record

2224
02:02:54,800 --> 02:02:58,440
Speaker 1: labor called Sahil Sounds that there's a lot of good

2225
02:02:58,480 --> 02:03:01,480
Speaker 1: stuff from Sub Saharan Africa. Um. And there is a

2226
02:03:01,520 --> 02:03:05,000
Speaker 1: website called Africa as a Country that writes about a

2227
02:03:05,000 --> 02:03:08,360
Speaker 1: lot of this cultural stuff that I can recommend. Um.

2228
02:03:08,400 --> 02:03:10,880
Speaker 1: But you know, it's always good to be curious about

2229
02:03:10,920 --> 02:03:14,040
Speaker 1: all this kind of stuff. And again that's a net positive,

2230
02:03:14,400 --> 02:03:17,200
Speaker 1: That's how I think about it. So if it gets

2231
02:03:17,240 --> 02:03:20,040
Speaker 1: more people listening to that and learning learning about it,

2232
02:03:20,080 --> 02:03:23,680
Speaker 1: and more music fans and more musicians, is not only

2233
02:03:23,760 --> 02:03:26,400
Speaker 1: learning about people who aren't like yourself. Those are not

2234
02:03:26,440 --> 02:03:29,800
Speaker 1: bad things, folks, Thank you. For listening. This has been

2235
02:03:29,800 --> 02:03:33,080
Speaker 1: too much information. I'm Alex Hegel and I'm Jordan Runtug.

2236
02:03:33,400 --> 02:03:40,600
Speaker 1: We'll catch you next time. Too Much Information was a

2237
02:03:40,640 --> 02:03:43,960
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. The show's executive producers are

2238
02:03:43,960 --> 02:03:47,360
Speaker 1: Noel Brown and Jordan Runtalk. The show's supervising producer is

2239
02:03:47,400 --> 02:03:51,080
Speaker 1: Michael Alder June. The show was researched, written and hosted

2240
02:03:51,080 --> 02:03:54,040
Speaker 1: by Jordan Runtug and Alex Heagel, with original music by

2241
02:03:54,040 --> 02:03:56,920
Speaker 1: Seth Applebaum and the Ghost Funk Orchestra. If you like

2242
02:03:57,000 --> 02:03:59,120
Speaker 1: what you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review.

2243
02:03:59,320 --> 02:04:01,520
Speaker 1: For more podcast us and I heart Radio, visit the

2244
02:04:01,520 --> 02:04:04,600
Speaker 1: I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen

2245
02:04:04,640 --> 02:04:05,560
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.