1 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, welcome, Welcome to the Tesla shareholder meeting. And 2 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: I just want to start up by saying, hot, damn, 3 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: I love you guys. Yeah, we have the most awesome 4 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: shareholder base. I mean, it's just incredible. Any public company, 5 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: it's incredible. 6 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 2: Wow. 7 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 3: Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet. 8 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 2: More than half the satellites in space are owned and 9 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 2: controlled by one man. 10 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 4: Starting his own artificial intelligence company. 11 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 5: Well, he's a legitimate, super genius, legitimate, he says. 12 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,319 Speaker 6: He's always voted for Democrats, but this year it will 13 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 6: be different. 14 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 3: He'll vote Republican. 15 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 7: There is a reason the US government is so reliant 16 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 7: on him. 17 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 8: Alon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 18 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 9: Anything he does is fascinating to people. 19 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 2: Welcome to Elon Am Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. 20 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 2: It's Tuesday, June eighteenth. I'm your host, David Popadopoulos. This week, 21 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: we've got money on our minds, specifically Elon's victory. His 22 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 2: pay package of some fifty billion dollars was approved by 23 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 2: Tesla's shareholders last week. We'll dig into what that does 24 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 2: and doesn't mean for his fortunes and for the company, 25 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 2: plus imagine if X became the new Venmo. Friend of 26 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 2: the show, Kurt Wagner has a scoop on Elon's plans 27 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 2: to morph x into a payments platform and some early 28 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 2: steps the company has taken. And we'll also dig into 29 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 2: another ex development, the disappearance of users liked posts on 30 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 2: the platform and what's behind it. To talk about all 31 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 2: things Tesla, we have our expert muscologists, Max Chapkin, BusinessWeek 32 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 2: senior reporter, he Loo Max, Hot, damn. 33 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 8: I love you guys. 34 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 2: You know you beat me to that. So I was 35 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 2: gonna say that here at the end I should clearly 36 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 2: I shouldn't be at the beginning you said, hot damn. 37 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 2: You love us all, and we all love you back. 38 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 2: Dana Hull, our Elon Musk correspondent, Hello, Dana. 39 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 10: Awesome to be here. 40 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 2: And we have Jeff Feely, who covers Delaware courts for 41 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 2: us here at Bloomberg. Hello Jeff Mooring. Later on the 42 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 2: show to talk Ax, we'll have Kurt on and we're 43 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: gonna have a special guest, Max Reid, who writes the 44 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,959 Speaker 2: Read Max newsletter and his covered tech for many years. Okay, Dana, 45 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 2: So the shareholder vote or votes. There were actually multiple votes, 46 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 2: but the biggest one on Elon's pay package took place 47 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 2: last week. He won. What was the margin of the vote. 48 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 2: Was it similar to his victory way back when when 49 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 2: this thing was approved in eighteen? Big or smaller? What 50 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 2: did it look like? 51 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 10: It was roughly the same. Seventy two of voting shareholders 52 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 10: vote to reratify Musk's twenty eighteen pay package. And what 53 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 10: was super interesting was that going into the shareholder meeting 54 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 10: like the day before, I thought the vote was very close. 55 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 10: I mean, Tesla had been running this very aggressive campaign 56 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 10: to engage retail shareholders. All of these people like Tesla, 57 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 10: Boomer Mama and others were like urging everyone to vote. 58 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 10: There was this huge, huge get out the vote effort. 59 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 10: Optimists was urging people to vote, and the sense was 60 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 10: that they didn't have the institutional shareholders. But then on Wednesday, 61 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 10: Elon Musk, who has a penchant for front running, basically 62 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 10: ran the big revealed He posted on Twitter that the 63 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 10: vote that he was winning by a wide margin. And 64 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 10: we came to learn after the fact that Vanguard, the 65 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 10: largest shareholder in the company after Elon himself voted yes. 66 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 10: For the pay package, and that was a bit of 67 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 10: a surprise because they were a no in twenty eighteen. 68 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 2: So Max, I guess I wonder if at some level 69 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: it shows that his get out the vote campaign was affected. 70 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, Danna says, And this is for a company that is, 71 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 4: you know, sort of famously against spending money on marketing 72 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 4: and pr and on on these kinds of things. They 73 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 4: went all out on this, on this effort, So in 74 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 4: other words, spending it seemed more energy and even maybe 75 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 4: more thought and time and so on into marketing. Elon Musk, 76 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 4: as a guy worth really. 77 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 2: Wanted that money. I guess that included, of course, the 78 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: slightly strong arm tactics of calling up Tesla employees who 79 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: owned the stock and urging them to vote. You know, 80 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 2: he was pretty pumped up about winning this vote. You 81 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 2: guys heard at the outset his greeting the assembly meeting there. 82 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 2: We have another clip of him here talking about where 83 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 2: he sees the company and it's valuation going. 84 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 9: I think, just based on vehicle autonomy, we can we 85 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 9: can ten x one ten x the value of the company. 86 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 9: I believe that's what will happen, and it's just what 87 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 9: what do you know? It's it's four twenty pm. Just 88 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 9: noticed that. 89 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,119 Speaker 2: I assume those pauses there are for the bong hits. 90 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 4: I feel like I get it in contact high, you know, 91 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 4: listening to. 92 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 2: Him a little bit as well. 93 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 4: Uh, you know, we talk a lot about on this 94 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 4: podcast about how, you know, there's sort of what Elon 95 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 4: says and then how he says it. And he's saying 96 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 4: pretty much the same things he's been saying for a 97 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 4: long time, although the mood was you know, even loopier, 98 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 4: even more sort of ebuliant. 99 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 8: Did I say that right than usual? 100 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 4: And and you know, full on loopy and and you know, 101 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 4: investors historically have kind of responded to that if if 102 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 4: Elon must seems like he's in a good mood, even 103 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 4: if he's making weed jokes and awkwardly pausing and using 104 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 4: a weird voice to say hot, damn, I love you guys, 105 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 4: investors are sort of okay with it. 106 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, Dan. At that point, the stock actually did pop 107 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 2: both that day and the next day, So even though 108 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 2: it was sort of expected, I guess it was a 109 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 2: bit of a reassurance for those. 110 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 10: Tesla has always struggled with key man risk, and the 111 00:05:57,880 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 10: key man risk in this case, was that if the 112 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 10: package didn't pass, that Elon was gonna get pissed off 113 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 10: and quit and walk away and take his like AI 114 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 10: and robotics toys elsewhere. So it was like reassuring to 115 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 10: investors to sort of see him in this happy, expansive, 116 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 10: dopamine fueled kind of mood, you know, talking about not 117 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 10: just like the next chapter of Tesla's history, but he 118 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 10: claimed that they are writing a new book. And then 119 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 10: he threw out like all kinds of crazy numbers about 120 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 10: how the valuation is just gonna skyrocket. I mean, they're 121 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 10: gonna ten x, they're gonna see two hundred to three 122 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 10: hundred percent year over year growth, and the energy storage 123 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 10: they've got, the cyber trucks, they're going to optimize optimists. 124 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 10: And then he thinks that it's possible for Tesla to 125 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 10: achieve evaluation ten times that of the most valuable company today, 126 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 10: which would be a valuation of thirty three trillion. So, 127 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 10: you know, we talk about Elon's moods. He was expansive Elon, 128 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 10: And you know, these shareholder meetings are like religious revival events. 129 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 10: I mean, people are so grateful to have a ticket 130 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 10: to be able to say that they were in the 131 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 10: room with this guy. But this doesn't mean that it's over. Like, yes, 132 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 10: the shareholders voted to reratify the package, but the judge 133 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 10: in Delaware still has to sort of sign off on that, 134 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 10: and that is far from certain. 135 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, so Jeff, give us the next legal steps here. 136 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 3: Okay, So these guys have tried to do basically a 137 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 3: redo over the original package to fix the flaws that 138 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 3: Judge McCormick pointed out in January. Nobody's tried to ever 139 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 3: try to do this before. The section of the law 140 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 3: they're using, lots of people say was set up for 141 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 3: technical fixes, not substantive changes like this. So Judge Katie 142 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 3: that's her local nickname, is not required to take notice 143 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 3: at all of the shareholder vote. She has to find 144 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 3: a lot to issue a final ruling in the case, 145 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 3: and that includes deciding how much the winning shareholders lawyers 146 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 3: get in legal fees. There's a hearing July eighth to 147 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 3: hear arguments on the legal fees. And I guess on 148 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 3: Tesla's argument that they can, you know, now, they should 149 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 3: be able to just reinstate its package because they've fixed 150 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 3: all the you know, they've plugged all the holes the 151 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 3: general belief in the bar around here is that this 152 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 3: is not going to affect her ruling. She's ruled on 153 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 3: the package, she's found the flaws. They really didn't address 154 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 3: the flaws. They made some weak attempts at trying to 155 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 3: remove the conflicts, but having one person serve as the 156 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 3: special committee is not what you would call best practices 157 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 3: in good governance world. 158 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 2: Okay, And that's the thing, But Jeff, one of her concerns, 159 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 2: if I'm remembering correctly, was that they kind of smooth 160 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 2: played this one over on the shareholders and who weren't 161 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 2: quite aware of what they were actually voting for when 162 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 2: they voted for his pay package. And certainly, I would 163 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 2: think no one can make that argument now. I think 164 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 2: everyone was eminently aware of what they were voting for. 165 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 3: Yes, although they basically they being TESLA, were not very 166 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 3: transparent about the idea that this didn't have any binding 167 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 3: effect on the judge. Okay, They led folks to believe 168 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 3: that if you vote yes, that Elon's going to get 169 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 3: his dough, and that ain't. 170 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 2: So okay, right true, So they voted yes, he doesn't 171 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 2: get his dough. Yet they're waiting for the judge now, 172 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 2: to respond. Now, Dan, what happens if the judge says 173 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 2: no yet again, is there any pay package in effect 174 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 2: that all for him ers are essentially going unpaid in 175 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 2: the horror of it, you know, a guy with whatever 176 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty billion dollars or so going unpaid? 177 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 2: But what is the current pay package in place? 178 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 10: So there's a couple avenues. I mean, Tesla will undoubtedly 179 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 10: appeal if the judge says no, screw you. I'm not 180 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 10: taking this like redo vote into account. My opinion from 181 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 10: January still stands. 182 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 2: She's definitely saying screw you if she votes now. 183 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 10: Yeah, Tesla can appeal to the Delaware Supreme Court. They so, 184 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 10: you know, keep your eye out for a filing on 185 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 10: that after they have this hearing in July. But now 186 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 10: Tesla has moved its legal incorporation to Texas. I mean, 187 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 10: that's the other significant vote that happened at the shareholder meeting. 188 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 2: They are now. 189 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 10: Domiciled in Texas. It's where their headquarters has been for 190 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 10: a couple of years now. But now they have another 191 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 10: avenue because they could I mean, Jeff correct me if 192 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 10: I'm wrong here, but they could do yet another revote 193 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 10: in Texas and then only Texas law would apply. So 194 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 10: that's sort of the endgame here. I mean, they're doing 195 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 10: an end run around the Delaware court system. 196 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 4: This is going to go on and on though, because 197 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 4: you have, first of all, I'm pretty sure that Texas 198 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 4: has to respect Judge McCormick's ruling, or it should respect. 199 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 8: Judge McCormick's ruling, so they have to do a new 200 00:10:58,920 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 8: pay package. 201 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 4: Meanwhile, you've got all of these lawsuits that were filed, 202 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 4: you know, just under the wire, to all these shareholders 203 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 4: who want to have cases in Delaware court. So this 204 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 4: Delaware is going to have something to say about Elon 205 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 4: Musk for some time. 206 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. 207 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, let's remember if Texas's business courts 208 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 3: aren't even set up yet, they will not be set 209 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:19,719 Speaker 3: up until September. 210 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 2: What does that mean Texas has no business courts at all? 211 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 4: Right? 212 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 3: No, No, they have no court equivalent to Delaware's chancery court, 213 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 3: which is the primary premier venue for corporate litigation in 214 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 3: the country. They are trying to set up a competing 215 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 3: court to the Delaware court, and their legislature enabled it 216 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 3: in the last session, but they have not been able 217 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 3: to hire judges, they don't have stuff codified. It's a 218 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 3: we're a fair distance away from anybody being able to 219 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 3: navigate a lawsuit in those particular courts. So that's number one. 220 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 3: Number two, we live in a rule of law the 221 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,599 Speaker 3: last time I checked here in country, and being a 222 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 3: disappointed litigant and being unhappy about a court system is 223 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 3: one thing, But you know, switching your state of incorporation 224 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 3: because a judge ruled against you on one thing is 225 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 3: so Elon, it's almost hilarious, Danna. 226 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 2: Before we move on, though, let me ask you this 227 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: last question. Out of this shareholder vote or the shareholder meeting, 228 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 2: were there any other votes of import that our listeners 229 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 2: should know about. 230 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 10: Yeah, So two directors were up for re election, James 231 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 10: Murdoch and Kimball Musk. They've both been on the board 232 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 10: for a while. Kimball is obviously Elon's younger brother. Both 233 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 10: of them them were re elected to the board with 234 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 10: like pretty flying colors, So no surprises there. And I 235 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 10: think it was just like a chance for Elon to 236 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 10: take this big victory lap and for the retail shareholders 237 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 10: who really came all out and got engaged in an 238 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 10: active in. 239 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 8: A way that you. 240 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 10: I mean, frankly, retail shold shareholders typically do not vote 241 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 10: in proxy fights. I mean, every once in a while 242 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 10: you might have like a big proxy battle where there's 243 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 10: like an activist shareholder trying to take over a stake 244 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 10: in the company, But in general, like people own shares 245 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 10: via their like mutual funds or in their retirement counts, 246 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 10: and they're not like active participant in I guess what 247 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 10: you could call shareholder democracy. But this was a real 248 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 10: I mean, this was a real sense that they were. 249 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:24,359 Speaker 8: And so going. 250 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 10: Forward, I'm curious to see how active these shareholders will 251 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 10: be and if they will there will ever come a 252 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 10: time where they're actually like opposed to what the company 253 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 10: is saying. 254 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: Hey, Jeff Feely, before we let you go, sir, any 255 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:37,599 Speaker 2: final words of wisdom. 256 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 3: Well, I would not go to Vegas and put money 257 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 3: down on Judge Katie allowing them to do a. 258 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,439 Speaker 2: Right Well, I do gamble a fair amounts, hold on, 259 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 2: do not go to Vegas and bet again. 260 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I'd put some money on the Eagles, 261 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 3: but not. 262 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 2: Don't you know I could talk about the Mets on 263 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: this show and mock Max about the Mets. We don't 264 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 2: talk about the Philadelphia Eagles on the show. Jeff Feely, 265 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 2: thank you very much for joining us. 266 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 5: All right, guys, see you take. 267 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 2: Care, Dana. Thank you for joining us. 268 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 10: Always the pleasure. 269 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 2: All right Now, Max, Chafkin and I are joined by 270 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 2: Kurt Wagner, who covers tech for us here at Bloomberg. Hello, Kurt, hey, Hey, 271 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 2: and Max read the author of the Read Max Substack newsletter. 272 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 6: Welcome Max, Thanks for having me. 273 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 2: Okay, so for the purposes of this, so we don't 274 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 2: get confused here, we're gonna go with Max, Reid and Chafkin. 275 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 2: Does that work? By the way, Max is a fantastic name. 276 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 2: I mean, if we if our if we had another child, 277 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 2: there was a boy we were gonna name h Max, 278 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: just Maximilian Papadopolis. The kid would have achieved incredible things. 279 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 2: Kurt Wagner, let's start with you and your and your 280 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 2: scoop this morning that you head out with your colleague 281 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 2: Aisha Counts, Elon and co. There X are advancing on 282 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 2: their plan for their Venmo like payments feature. We've known 283 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 2: about this for a while, but you've encountered a bunch 284 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 2: of new information. Tell us what you learned. 285 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 7: Yeah, we submitted public records requests in all fifty states 286 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 7: because what X is doing right now is they're trying 287 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 7: to get payments licenses in these states, and so we 288 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 7: just you know, sent the regulatory agencies are r foyas 289 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 7: and in eleven cases actually we got documents back and 290 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 7: it gave us a nice glimpse into what it is 291 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 7: they're doing. So we've got some business plans, financial statements 292 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 7: or charts, things like that that we're helpful not just 293 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 7: to paint a picture of what they're doing on payments, 294 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 7: but also just give us a bit of a sneak 295 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 7: peek into X more broadly, because it is a private 296 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 7: company now and we don't really get those updates like 297 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 7: we used to when Twitter was public. But the short 298 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 7: version is they are trying to build a payments like 299 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 7: feature where you would, you know, log into a dashboard 300 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 7: on x dot com or the app, you could pay people, 301 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 7: you could pay businesses, you could store money. The fees 302 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 7: would be very minimal, so it would it wouldn't be 303 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 7: you know, passed on the business aspects of this wouldn't 304 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 7: be passed on to consumers, and you know, as you mentioned, David, 305 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 7: like this this plays into this everything app idea that 306 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 7: Elon has talked about. You can't be in everything app 307 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 7: if you can't use it for finances and money, and 308 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 7: so they are very much in the process of trying 309 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 7: to make this a reality. And even though Elon's sort 310 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 7: of hinted at it and talked about it, I think 311 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 7: these documents confirmed a lot of the progress and ambitions that. 312 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 2: They have now Max read the Everything app and in 313 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 2: particular leaning into the financial parts of it, something that 314 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 2: Elon has really kind of obsessed about for a long 315 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 2: long time, you know, way back to his prior to 316 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 2: his acquisition of Twitter. 317 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 6: Right, yeah, I mean twenty five years after he sold 318 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 6: his first company, Zip to Go Zip two in the nineties, 319 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 6: he wanted to launch an online bank, which he purchased 320 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 6: the RX dot com for his URL in particular, maybe 321 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 6: even more than the business plan has been a real 322 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 6: white whale for him. But I mean, this is a 323 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 6: sort of famous story. He launched X around the same 324 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 6: time that Peter Teal and company launched what was going 325 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 6: to become PayPal Confinity. They were in this really cutthroat 326 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 6: competition and eventually merged and Teal famously pushed Musk out 327 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 6: PayPal became, you know, the leader at the time of 328 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 6: payment apps, and Musk, I mean, depending depending on how 329 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 6: you look at at Musk has perhaps been stewing for 330 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 6: decades hoping to get peg into the world of online payments. 331 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 6: He bought back the x dot com URL from PayPal 332 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 6: twenty seventeen, I think, and you know, this was one 333 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 6: of the first things he was talking about when he 334 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 6: was buying X. I think even before he bought X, 335 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 6: he was talking up we Chat, the Chinese chat app. 336 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 5: A app that's as good as we Chat in China, 337 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,479 Speaker 5: and like in China you like live on we Chat. Basically, 338 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 5: it's like yeah, everyone, everyone's like, like, you live on 339 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 5: we Chat, you do payments, you do everything. It's like, yep, 340 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 5: it's great. Basically we chats kick ass, and we don't 341 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 5: have anything like we Chat outside of Taina. So I 342 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 5: was like, my idea would be, like, how about if 343 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 5: we just copy we Chat. 344 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 4: Hey, Honestly, the assent is more interesting in that clip 345 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 4: than the substance. 346 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 2: You know. 347 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,439 Speaker 4: One thing that Max left out of that story is 348 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 4: that and I learned this when I was reporting my 349 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 4: book about TIL. Some people think that the final straw 350 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 4: for Elon Musk getting pushed out was an attempt to 351 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 4: rename Among the things he did and PayPal was kind 352 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 4: of a mess back then before before he got pushed out, 353 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 4: was to try to rename PayPal, which at that point 354 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 4: had a brand and a decent following and so on. 355 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 4: He tried to rename it X so so kind of 356 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 4: exactly the same move we saw with Twitter when he 357 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 4: did the renaming there. 358 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 8: He just loves, just loves that letter. 359 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 2: So, Kurt, best case scenario for Elon and the X crew, 360 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 2: when is this feature being rolled out? What's their timeline? Like, 361 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 2: I know that Elon's always wildly optimistic on his timelines, 362 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 2: but what are they talking about? 363 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean they wanted it or want it by 364 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 7: the end of this year. They had said in some 365 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,199 Speaker 7: of the emails we read that they were hoping to 366 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 7: do someonce they had the majority of state. You know, 367 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 7: they had payments licenses in the majority of states. They 368 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 7: now have twenty eight, so technically they do have more 369 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 7: than half. My guess is they would want more than 370 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 7: you know, much closer to fifty so that people are 371 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 7: able to actually send money. 372 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 2: But could they do They absolutely need all fifty to 373 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 2: start or could you start with forty two. 374 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 7: You could start with forty two, but then you know 375 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 7: there are people in eight states who can't participate, and 376 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 7: it kind of. 377 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 2: What they are going to be losing out on. Jesus. 378 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 7: Well, yeah, but you know, imagine you have a friend 379 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 7: there you want to send money to and you can't. 380 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 7: It sort of limits the the you know, user experience, 381 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 7: and I I think that's really the key, right, Like 382 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 7: building this getting the approval is sort of the easy 383 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 7: part in my opinion. I actually think the hard part 384 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 7: here is going to be convincing people to use X 385 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 7: in a way that they have never used it before. 386 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 2: Right. 387 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 7: Not only are there a bunch of existing competitors like 388 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 7: Venmo out there that have market share, but it's a 389 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 7: user behavior issue, Like how many people are going to 390 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 7: suddenly say, yes, this app that I've used to you know, 391 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 7: dunk on politicians or get my news for the past 392 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 7: twenty years is suddenly going to be my bank. Like 393 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:36,199 Speaker 7: that's just not a logical jump for most people. And 394 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:37,959 Speaker 7: I think that's going to be the bigger hurdle than 395 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 7: actually building the product. 396 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 2: Quick shraphole here, which of the I want to ask 397 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 2: the two max is and Kurt, if you indeed, would 398 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 2: you know, try this out, assuming, by the way, I'm 399 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 2: going to throw in one hundred dollars for X. I'm 400 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 2: going to give you all three hundred dollars because I'm 401 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 2: sure they're going to do something like that. They're going 402 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 2: to slip you a C note or something. They slip 403 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 2: you a cnoe and say, hey, we want you to 404 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 2: use it. Stop using venmo use X Max. 405 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 4: Jeff, Well, I'm going to look at what the interest 406 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 4: rates are, you know, really very closely studied offering. 407 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 8: No, I'm not going to use the app that I 408 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 8: doom scroll to do banking. 409 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 2: No next season, No, Max read. 410 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 6: Take the one hundred dollars and I'd make the minimum 411 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 6: number of payments to get the hundred dollars out, and 412 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 6: then I would never use it again. 413 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 2: It's a good answer, Kurt. 414 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 7: Yeah, I do the same. I mean, I'm not even 415 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 7: comfortable really using Twitter DMS right now for privacy reasons, 416 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 7: So I'm not going to be using Twitter for my banking. 417 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 4: Reading Kurt story and reminded it was like reading I 418 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 4: feel like there's a really good illustration of how easy 419 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 4: it is when you're very wealthy to like spend money 420 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 4: on dumb things. Because clearly Elon Musk told a bunch 421 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 4: of people, and I think there's some reporting to this 422 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 4: effect as well. Like said, you know, essentially ordered his 423 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 4: team to secure these permits. They're doing so at probably 424 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 4: absurd expense. 425 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 2: Why is that? Why is why is securing permits incredibly expensive? 426 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 4: You have a bunch of you know, high priced lawyers, 427 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 4: and you know it has taken years, and like, at 428 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 4: the end of the day, even if they get all 429 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 4: these permits, like Kurt says, you know, this is not 430 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:08,719 Speaker 4: going to be a big business. 431 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 2: Right. Let's even pretend, Kurt that it is a big 432 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 2: business for the sake of argument. Let's say this thing 433 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 2: takes off and holy smokes, everyone stops using Zel, stops 434 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 2: using Venmo. They are xing exing money across the globe 435 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 2: as they see it. Does it generate a lot of 436 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 2: revenue for them? As they've laid out their model and 437 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 2: the documents you've looked at. 438 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 7: They haven't put revenue projections into the documents we've seen. 439 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 7: They have said that the fees are not really the 440 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 7: main purpose here. Again, they wouldn't they wouldn't do fees 441 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 7: for consumers. They would do a fee for a business. 442 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 7: So if I buy something from you, David, you as 443 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 7: the retailer might have to you know, pay one, two, 444 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 7: three percent or whatever to X because the sale came 445 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 7: through their platform. For them. What they've said is the 446 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 7: bigger businesses this idea that people will find X more valuable. 447 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 7: Therefore they will spend more time on X, and that 448 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 7: will make X a better advertising business, which is what 449 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 7: they already do. 450 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 4: So the idea is that you buy your Cheech and 451 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 4: Chung gummies with this with this payment platform, right, and 452 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 4: that will cause Cheech and Chong to pay more money 453 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 4: to X to advertise. 454 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 7: Well, let's go back to our hundred dollars example here. 455 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 7: You know, Max, you have your hundred bucks sitting in 456 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 7: your X account, and chich and Chong suddenly says, well, 457 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 7: you're a more valuable target for them because you could 458 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 7: make a purchase with one click right there in the feed, right, 459 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 7: you can make an impulse buy, Oh this looks cool, 460 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 7: and I already have the money sitting my account. Boom, 461 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 7: buy right there right. It just eliminates these steps that 462 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 7: get to a sale, and their hope is that that 463 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 7: will make X a more valuable advertising business. 464 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 2: Okay, Now, Kurt in doing the digging for this story, 465 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 2: I believe you guys, you also uncovered some financials in 466 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 2: the filings, right, a bit of a better look inside 467 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 2: how the company is doing and what did you learn there? 468 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 7: No shock to focus on this pod because we've talked 469 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 7: about this, but the business was not doing well last year. 470 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,719 Speaker 7: The numbers we got were from Q one and Q 471 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 7: two of twenty three, so about a year ago, basically 472 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 7: the first you know, full six months of Elon in charge, 473 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 7: and X's revenue was about forty percent lower than the 474 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 7: year prior when he took over. They lost almost five 475 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 7: hundred million dollars in the first quarter alone, And I 476 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 7: think for me, not only did it confirm a lot 477 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 7: of things that we've been hearing and trying to report 478 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 7: right sort of around the company, but I think that 479 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 7: it just sort of explains why this everything app idea 480 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 7: is so important to Elon, because the current business plan 481 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 7: that they have is just not working. It's not big enough. 482 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 7: And so if you are sitting there saying, hey, you know, 483 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 7: we have a business that's half the size of what 484 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 7: I acquired, you got to fill that in somehow. And 485 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 7: so I think That's why this everything app and these 486 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 7: payments are such a priority for them is because they're 487 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 7: sitting there going we need to figure out how to 488 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 7: make money from this thing. 489 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 2: But I guess Max read My question for you would be, 490 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 2: this is in some little startup company now, I mean 491 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 2: X formerly Twitter's been around for a while. You are 492 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,360 Speaker 2: now losing a half a billion dollars a quarter. At 493 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 2: what point do you just say, all right, we're just 494 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 2: throwing good money after bad here. This ain't working. 495 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 6: Are you asking me or are you asking hypothetical Elon Musk, 496 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 6: because I'm not sure Elon Musk ever quite hits that point. 497 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 6: I mean, for me, I would have said that nineteen 498 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 6: months ago, but I also wouldn't have bought x Twitter 499 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 6: or whatever. I mean, this is the funny thing about 500 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,959 Speaker 6: the everything app. And you could even hear it in 501 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 6: that clip, which I believe was from before even bought Twitter. 502 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 6: The idea. I don't know if you're thinking we need 503 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 6: to make this company really big if you just say 504 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 6: the words everything app, that's the biggest thing there is. 505 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 6: Everything is everything. But it's not precisely a business plan, 506 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 6: is it? 507 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 9: You know? 508 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 6: We Chat is what it is because of a pretty 509 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 6: specific situation about Chinese finance and banks and payments, and 510 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 6: it evolved into that after a bunch of decisions made 511 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 6: over the course of a couple decades. And it's really 512 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 6: not the kind of thing that you can just walk 513 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 6: in and say, if we if we crobe our payments 514 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 6: into the uh you know, as we say the the appword, 515 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,959 Speaker 6: Cheach and Shong are selling me gummies and where camgirls 516 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 6: have all kinds of things in their bios. It doesn't 517 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 6: strike me as as a natural fit. And I don't 518 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 6: think it's the kind of thing that's suddenly can to 519 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 6: leverage you into a Facebook sized company. 520 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 4: We know that this everything app thing is is, like 521 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 4: Max is saying, like an uphill battle because every other 522 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 4: tech company has in the US has tried it. Facebook 523 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 4: has tried it. You know, they all this is not 524 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 4: like this is not like this is like the most 525 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 4: obvious thing you could possibly think if you owned a 526 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 4: social media But it's not some kind of this was 527 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 4: real great epiphany, right, And they've all tried it and 528 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 4: they've all basically failed for the reasons I'm Max saying, 529 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 4: like the Internet is, it's a thing. 530 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 8: It's like a living thing. That's evolved. 531 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 4: You can't just sort of like snap your fingers and 532 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 4: swallow you know, a whole section of the of the 533 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 4: Internet where people have sort of locked in relationships with companies. 534 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 4: But you know, one thing I've noticed as we've had 535 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 4: this conversation, I mean, this thing with the everything app. 536 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 4: Just take it seriously for a second. It's kind of 537 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,719 Speaker 4: similar to optimists, right, It's just like Elon Musk picking 538 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 4: the biggest possible thing. So like, what if I owned 539 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 4: the means of production for everything in the entire world? 540 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 4: Like he's basically said that, what if I own the 541 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 4: entire Internet? That would be great? And you know he's 542 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,159 Speaker 4: this is where he's honestly very good. I mean, as 543 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 4: outlandish as those ideas are, and as outlandish it is 544 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 4: for Elon to sit up at the Tesla annual meeting 545 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 4: when Tesla is you know, worth five hundred billion dollars 546 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 4: and is like, you know, way over valued relative to 547 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 4: every other car company, to say, oh, we're going to 548 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 4: be worth you know, thirty trillion, and people kind of 549 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 4: take that no seriously. 550 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 2: But on that going back to that shareholder meeting, because 551 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 2: actually that that's where my mind was going a little bit, Kurt. 552 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 2: I know you were listening in early and you heard 553 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 2: the clips, the raucous clips of the crowd egging him 554 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 2: on and cheering him. You can't tell me that you 555 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 2: can't take some of those enthusiastic Tesla shareholders and Tesla 556 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 2: owners and get them on this everything app Come on, 557 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:00,360 Speaker 2: you can. 558 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 7: There were what three hundred people in that room? Sure users, right, 559 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 7: I feel. 560 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 2: Like there were at least you know, five hundred, come on, 561 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 2: at least five. 562 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 7: I mean, this is this is sort of the the 563 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 7: subscription product that X launched on, you know, right after right, Like, 564 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,199 Speaker 7: you look at who kind of is subscribed to that, 565 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 7: and I think for the most part it's people who 566 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 7: believe in Elon and people who are Elon fans, and 567 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 7: that is a small business for them. That is not 568 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 7: a big enough business for this to work. So there's 569 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 7: always going to be people no matter what he does. 570 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 7: He sold he sold flamethrowers for God's sake, right, and 571 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 7: like people bought those. So like, no matter what he does, 572 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 7: there will be an audience for it. But I think 573 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 7: the question is is it at scale? And I don't think, 574 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 7: you know, I think this will be tough to get 575 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 7: to scale. 576 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 2: I got your currently everything app is going to be 577 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 2: as important to X as the flamethrower was to test on. 578 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 2: So some iteration of zero point zero zero zero zero 579 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 2: one percent of revenue max read and other ex news 580 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 2: the company has begun to hide to a certain degree 581 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 2: your likes on posts. Tell us a little bit more 582 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 2: about it and how we should interpret this. 583 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 6: Yeah, so last week some people poking around on Twitter 584 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 6: realized that they were piloting a program where likes would 585 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,719 Speaker 6: be hidden. So classically, there are three actions you can 586 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 6: do with a tweet. You can retweet or quote tweet it, 587 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 6: you can reply to it, or you can like it, 588 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 6: which has an ambiguous meaning. Let's say, but it's saved 589 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 6: in a big list that is public or was until 590 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 6: recently publicly accessible on your profile. So if you're out 591 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 6: there liking Cheech and Chong tweets, then anybody who goes 592 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 6: to your profile can see all the Cheech and Chong 593 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 6: tweets you liked. And similarly, I could click on a 594 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 6: Cheech and Chong tweet and see everybody who liked that tweet. 595 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 6: And when it was discovered that they were sort of 596 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 6: figuring out how to hide these or they were playing 597 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 6: around with hiding them. Twitter's head of engineering tweeted that 598 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 6: they were doing this because they felt like people were 599 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 6: afraid of liking I believe the phrase he used was 600 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 6: edgy content, that trolls would attack people who liked edgy content, 601 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 6: that it would be used to damage them in some way. 602 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 2: You're not buying it, I take it. 603 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 6: I mean, I think that's actually I buy that. That 604 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 6: is the literal reason that many of the people who 605 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 6: work at Twitter right now want to do this. It's 606 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 6: hard for me not to associate a particular kind of 607 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 6: political valance to that statement, by which I mean, I 608 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 6: think there are people, maybe who work at Twitter, but 609 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 6: a lot of people who use Twitter who are under 610 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 6: the impression that there's all these kind of right wing 611 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 6: statements that are getting made that people would like if 612 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 6: they knew it would be hidden, but they can't like 613 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 6: them because that edgy content is going to get them 614 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 6: attacked by trolls. Practically speaking, I think maybe what they're 615 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 6: talking about is a kind of dynamic where prominent people politicians, 616 00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 6: hedge fund managers, celebrities are under you know, are engaged 617 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 6: in a kind of constant back and forth. Let's say 618 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 6: with the non prominent, non famous people on Twitter, and 619 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 6: if you like something in err and cy I mean, 620 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 6: I'm thinking, for example, of when Ted Cruise's account, Oh yes, 621 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 6: accidentally liked a still from a porno. This was back 622 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 6: in twenty eighteen or whatever. 623 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 8: It was all time greatest moment in Twitter history. 624 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 2: I think yeah. 625 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 6: I mean, look from a pure traffic perspective, it's obviously 626 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 6: hugely profitable to Twitter to allow likes to be open, 627 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 6: because stuff like that is just going to generate all 628 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 6: kinds of attention to traffic. But if part of what 629 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 6: you want to do is protect your most prominent users, 630 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 6: you might want to reduce the you know what you 631 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 6: would call their attack surface like you don't you want 632 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 6: to reduce the number of ways that people can as 633 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 6: Kurt was saying before, dunk on politicians, dunk on on 634 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 6: prominent people. And to me, that's the sort of the 635 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 6: kind of consistent thread through a lot of the product 636 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 6: changes that Elon has brought through x Chafkin. 637 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 2: Beyond the great Ted Cruise example, do any other big 638 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 2: ones come to mind over the years of celebs mean 639 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 2: or Kurt? 640 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, Max is saying, first of all, 641 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 4: Max he wrote about this in his newsletter, which was 642 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 4: great and really well argued. 643 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 8: I think he's totally right. 644 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 4: It's mostly about politics and this perception of essentially right 645 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 4: wing content. But I will say I think a lot 646 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 4: of this comes up with porn, and it's a lot 647 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 4: of people, you know, liking content that's edgy in a 648 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 4: in a sort of sexual way, because often I think 649 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,479 Speaker 4: because they don't quite realize that the likes are are public, 650 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 4: Like like there's like in certain cases I think a. 651 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 2: Genuine oh wait a minute, you mean they are, But 652 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 2: you know. 653 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 4: I also think, you know, just to play devil's advocate 654 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 4: the light, Like I went back and looked at my 655 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 4: likes from. 656 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 2: The last Do you like your likes now? No? 657 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 8: I hate them? 658 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 4: And it made and it just made me think, like 659 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 4: mostly the way I was using this was kind of 660 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 4: just to express what amounts to like a pro I 661 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 4: have it, thank you or something for somebody. It's like 662 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 4: really embarrassing. All my likes are like self praise. It's 663 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 4: like they're really lame. 664 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 2: And it just made me feel. 665 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 4: It really like going back, it just made me feel 666 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 4: really bad about myself, Like I probably only out of 667 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 4: for every twenty likes only one what one out of twenty. 668 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 8: Was like a good joke, which I think is the 669 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 8: way you're supposed to use it. 670 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 2: You know, Kurt Max is feeling a little bad about himself. 671 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 2: Can do you have anything encouraging or positive to say him? 672 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 2: Can you like him right now? In fashion? Yeah? 673 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 7: I like Max. I wouldn't obviously display that publicly on 674 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 7: my Twitter. I'll say it here to you guys. 675 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to ask Max read though another question 676 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 2: on this, the you know, question of whether a legitimate 677 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:46,719 Speaker 2: argument can be made for it or not. I know, 678 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 2: you know, you feel at some level that this is 679 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 2: also just potentially cover for people liking outright racist sort 680 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 2: of tweets and or x'es and that sort of thing. 681 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 2: But is it possible that something like, hey, I want 682 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 2: to be supportive of the kind of anti woke types, 683 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 2: who are you know again some sort of corporate diversity initiative? 684 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 2: But god, I can't quite get myself to do that publicly. 685 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 2: Is that not potentially a thing? Yeah? Totally? 686 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 6: And I think, you know, we probably don't have to 687 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 6: go all the way into racism or hard right whatever 688 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 6: to sort of acknowledge that there's like Twitter is a 689 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 6: complicated social space, and there's all kinds of trouble you 690 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,800 Speaker 6: can get into, varying degrees of real life trouble versus 691 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 6: just sort of having your Twitter experience be ruined. And 692 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 6: I can recognize the value the user experience value to 693 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 6: sort of feeling a little bit more free to lend 694 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,879 Speaker 6: your support to tweets, though you know, it's the kind 695 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,399 Speaker 6: of thing when you say that out loud, it feels 696 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,760 Speaker 6: a little bit ridiculous that this is like a user priority. 697 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 6: Is that you want to make sure they're able to 698 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 6: click the heart button as many times as possible, you know, 699 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 6: under anti woke posts. But I think the other sort 700 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 6: of the other, the thing that this cuts again just 701 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,319 Speaker 6: to defend public likes, is I think that, you know, 702 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 6: Twitter is not a particularly transparent social network. Social networks 703 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 6: in general are not particularly open or transparent. But I 704 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 6: think that kind of transparency is really valuable, even to 705 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,760 Speaker 6: the limited extent that it exists in this specific case, 706 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 6: not just for say journalists like me, who are you know, 707 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 6: naturally just looking for ways to take down prominent politicians 708 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 6: for liking you know, big butts posts or whatever it 709 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 6: is that they're liking. But in a sort of broader sense, 710 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 6: to have a sense of who on Twitter is looking 711 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 6: at what and how they're looking at it. 712 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:33,919 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, what was cool about the likes is there's 713 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 4: a cost to liking something, which is that you have 714 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 4: to you know, there's a cost of retweeting, which is 715 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 4: that you know you're gonna I'm gonna blast my followers 716 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 4: with this, like that would be the maximal way to 717 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 4: show approval or whatever, and alike, although it's not, you're 718 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 4: not you're not spamming your feed, it's still there. And 719 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 4: and now in a situation where you can just you know, 720 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 4: like willy nilly, and you're never gonna have to defend 721 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 4: your your likes and like, you know, you're just gonna 722 00:35:59,080 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 4: you're gonna get liking. 723 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:01,879 Speaker 8: I feel like it's, you know. 724 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 2: Just one more kind of inflation that we have to 725 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 2: deal with now. Max reading Kurt, you heard that Max 726 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:13,359 Speaker 2: Chafkin is essentially embarrassed by almost all the likes he's 727 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 2: ever put up there over the past. 728 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 4: I only went back to like two early twenty one. 729 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 4: Maybe you're like pre twenty one, Maybe might. 730 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 8: Scrolled further back. 731 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 4: There were cool likes back there, but I don't know, 732 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 4: just not enough funny jokes and just too much, you know, professional, Thanks. 733 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 2: For the support give us. For each of you the 734 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 2: most embarrassing, like in hindsight, that you've encountered. 735 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 6: Max read You know, I have to I don't want 736 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 6: to ruin the game, but I have to say I 737 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 6: don't think anybody should be embarrassed by their likes. I'm 738 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,720 Speaker 6: here to preach a gospel of non shame and unembarrassedness 739 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 6: about what you're doing online. I think if you're liking 740 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 6: stuff that people that people praising you, if your mom 741 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,720 Speaker 6: is on Twitter sharing your articles, you should be liking that. Frankly, 742 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 6: it's it speaks poorly of you that you're not liking 743 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 6: those things. 744 00:36:58,239 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 2: You know, it's poorly of you. 745 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 6: Max, you better be You better be liking those So 746 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 6: that's that's all. 747 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 2: This is good. This is good. So Max Chafkin is 748 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 2: embarrassed by everything he's ever liked. Max Reid is embarrassed 749 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 2: by nothing that he's ever like, or at least nothing 750 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 2: that he'll admit to you here in front of all 751 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 2: of us, Kurt Wagner, what is your answer, sir? 752 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 7: You know I didn't go back as far as Max did. 753 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 7: That's dedication to go all the way to twenty twenty 754 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 7: one or whatever it is. I noticed two themes. The 755 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 7: first is, unfortunately, just like our friend Max Chafkin, I 756 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 7: really basically you even look my direction and boom, I'm 757 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,800 Speaker 7: liking that thing. Like if you comment about my book, 758 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 7: even if it's not a nice comment, boom, you get. 759 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 2: A like definitely thanks doing a lot of that. 760 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 7: Yeah. And then and then I also have a ton 761 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 7: of likes from around the time when Elon took over Twitter, 762 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 7: because I was using the like at that point sort 763 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,839 Speaker 7: of as like a bookmark, right, like, oh, I want 764 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 7: to come back to this tweet. So I got a 765 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,320 Speaker 7: ton of Elon tweets. I got the sleeping bag tweet 766 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 7: from that executive who slept in the office. You know. Yeah, 767 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 7: it was good, No, it was good. I mean, I'm 768 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 7: not I'm actually with Max Reid here, like I'm not. 769 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 7: I wasn't embarrassed by my likes necessarily. I just noticed 770 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 7: that they fell into a couple buckets. It was like, 771 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,359 Speaker 7: I want to remember this for later for work, or 772 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 7: you looked my way and boom, thanks for the attention, 773 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 7: Like you get a life. So those were those were 774 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:19,760 Speaker 7: the buckets. 775 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 2: That's a bit much getting so are going forward? Are 776 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 2: you gonna stop doing that? No, not at all. 777 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 7: Now you can't see now, you can't even see. 778 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 2: It probably doesn't matter, but you just like everything exactly. Okay, No, No, 779 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 2: very good, Max read thank you very much for joining us. 780 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Kurt as always, Thank you as always. 781 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 7: I had a great time. 782 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 2: Thank you, Max Chafkin did. This episode was produced by 783 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 2: Stacey Wong. Naomi Shaven and Rayhan Harmancier are senior editors. 784 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 2: The idea for this very show also came from Rayhon 785 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 2: Wait Maples handles engineering, and we get special editing assistants 786 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 2: from Jeff Grocott, Antonio Muffarech and Arafat Jalasho Perry. Our 787 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 2: supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson. The Elon Inc. Theme is 788 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 2: written and performed by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sudijura. Brendan 789 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,840 Speaker 2: Francis Newnham is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman is 790 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 2: the head of Bloomberg Podcast. A big thank you to 791 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 2: our supporter Joel Weber. I'm David Papadopoulos. If you have 792 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 2: a minute, rate and review our show. It'll help other 793 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 2: listeners find us, see you next week.