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Speaker 1: Also media time to party.

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Speaker 2: It's not time to party, It's time to be sad.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Behind the Bastards, a podcast that exists to

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Speaker 2: make your week worse so that you're you're more irritable

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Speaker 2: and frustrated around your friends and family and at work

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Speaker 2: and just a just a less happy person, you know,

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Speaker 2: all together. That's our job here Behind the Bastards. Stop

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Speaker 2: talking about for some reason, this this is profitable. Uh.

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Speaker 2: My guest today Stephen Monacelli. Stephen, how you doing.

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Speaker 3: Oh I'm pretty awful, Yeah, pretty awful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's that's the general vibe. Everybody seems to

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Speaker 2: be awful.

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Speaker 1: Did Robert get your last name right?

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Speaker 3: What did he say? I blocked out?

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Speaker 2: I said Monta Cellly.

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Speaker 3: I mean it's Mona Sely or Monoicelli. It just depends

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Speaker 3: on you know, which side of Ellis Island you're on.

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Speaker 2: Fair enough, that's right, the right side. I could do

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Speaker 2: like I could do like a it's it like gesture,

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Speaker 2: Yeah you're Italian? Oh yeah no no, no, Steven and

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Speaker 2: I can both say the two slurs that that Italians don't.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, anyone can, anyone.

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Speaker 2: It's always acceptable, It's always fine.

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Speaker 1: I feel very outnumbered today because I don't have a

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Speaker 1: beard and you're both Italian and the blonde hair.

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Speaker 2: I'm not. You know, there's there's there's there's some wonderful

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Speaker 2: things about having Italian heritage. But I think when your

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Speaker 2: country invents fascism, everyone gets to make fun of your

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Speaker 2: your accent forever. Like that's just a fair rule. That's

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Speaker 2: just a fair rule.

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Speaker 3: Hasn't even really been that long, that's.

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Speaker 2: Than a censure, just about a little over a century

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Speaker 2: since it started. I guess, Stephen, how do you feel

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Speaker 2: about Texas, the state that we both came from and

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Speaker 2: that you still reside in.

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Speaker 3: Oh, complicated feelings, very complicated feelings, Robert, do we have

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Speaker 3: time for that? I'm not sure.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's what we're going to be talking about all week. Specifically,

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Speaker 2: we're going to be talking about one of the things

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Speaker 2: Texas is most fai miss for. I'm not talking about

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Speaker 2: shiner bock beer. I'm not talking about some other less

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Speaker 2: pleasant things than shiner bock beer. Well I am, I'm

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Speaker 2: talking about one of those things. I'm talking about our

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Speaker 2: death row.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I thought you were going to talk about them

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Speaker 1: trading Luka Dantrits to my Lakers.

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Speaker 2: No, I feel like it's been a long time since

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Speaker 2: anyone in Texas made good sports related choices. Stephen, what

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Speaker 2: do you know about Texas death row?

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Speaker 3: Well, I know it's pretty bad. It's one of the

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Speaker 3: worst in the nation. Yeah, it's sizable. And there was

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Speaker 3: a period of time, I believe when we got rid

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Speaker 3: of the death penalty and then we decided to bring

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Speaker 3: it back.

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Speaker 2: If I'm not mistaken, Yeah, there was a period of

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Speaker 2: time in which, like the whole country was kind of like,

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Speaker 2: we need to take a look at how we handle

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Speaker 2: like because the death penalty was stoped nationwide for a

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Speaker 2: while and then reinstated in nineteen seventy six after some

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court rulings. We'll talk a little bit about that.

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Speaker 2: But since the death penalty was reinstated in seventy six,

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Speaker 2: Texas has executed more people than any other state. We're

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Speaker 2: at I think five hundred and ninety five right now.

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Speaker 2: I've seen a couple of different numbers, but they're all

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Speaker 2: around six hundred, like since nineteen seventy six, like somewhere

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Speaker 2: in that vicinity. Last year, I think we Texas executed

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Speaker 2: five people. So we execute a lot of folks, and

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Speaker 2: as we'll talk about we've executed a lot of folks

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Speaker 2: that we know are definitely innocent over the last fifty

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Speaker 2: years or so, Right, it happens a lot, and.

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Speaker 3: Even recently, Yeah, in the past year or two. This

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Speaker 3: is high profile cases.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And if you look at like a lot of

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Speaker 2: Innocence Project cases where it's like, oh, we now have

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Speaker 2: evidence this guy was pretty much definitely innocent, but they

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Speaker 2: got executed. Texas is often the state that they were

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Speaker 2: executed in. And today we're not talking about the whole

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Speaker 2: system a different episode. Probably, we're talking about one guy

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Speaker 2: who had an outsized role in making the system the

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Speaker 2: way it was and who has probably done more damage

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Speaker 2: to psychiatry as a discipline than maybe any other single

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Speaker 2: figure outside of like, you know, the Nazi period. Right, Like,

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Speaker 2: we're talking about a guy who was known as doctor

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Speaker 2: Death but in Texas, and you know, there's another doctor

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Speaker 2: Death that was famous, Jack Cavorkian, who's the like advocate

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Speaker 2: for a patient's right to die. I think if you

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Speaker 2: you and I grew up around the same time, you

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Speaker 2: probably remember hearing stories about Jack Kavorkian, who also got

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Speaker 2: called that he was a very different guy. There's some

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Speaker 2: like weird and questionable stuff about Kavorkian, some like eugenics

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Speaker 2: edge stuff that he wrote about privately, But he's not

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Speaker 2: really someone we'd focus on in this show. I think

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Speaker 2: fundamentally what he was doing is like more or less fine,

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Speaker 2: you know, with some potential room for quibbles there. The

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Speaker 2: doctor death we're talking about is Texas's doctor death, and

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Speaker 2: he did not assist people who wanted to die with

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Speaker 2: doing so painlessly and with dignity. Instead, he took it

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Speaker 2: upon himself to use a psychiatric degree to feed dozens

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Speaker 2: and dozens of human beings to Texas's death row. He

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Speaker 2: was the doctor who would sit down and tell a jury,

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Speaker 2: this man has to be executed or he will kill again.

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Speaker 2: That was his business. And his name was doctor James Grigson.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever heard of this guy?

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Speaker 3: So, to be honest, no, when you first reached out

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Speaker 3: and mentioned doctor death, there was another doctor in North

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Speaker 3: Texas who had also been given that moniker.

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Speaker 2: We've got a couple of them, huh.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And so that was the person who I

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Speaker 3: immediately thought you're referring.

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Speaker 2: To Nago Texas mm hm.

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Speaker 3: But he was like some surgeon and plane. Oh and botched.

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Speaker 3: Stuff happened and a bunch of people died. So yeah, I'm.

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Speaker 2: Sure we'll cover him bad, Like elective surgery stories is

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Speaker 2: one of our bread and butter. It's just like bad

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Speaker 2: you know, doctors who get people killed that way.

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Speaker 3: But Gregson, No, didn't hear about him.

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Speaker 2: No, Yeah, there's a you know, it's awful obviously if

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Speaker 2: someone's just like incompetent or not taking care and kills

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Speaker 2: people accidentally. But this is a guy who, like his

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Speaker 2: business was convincing juries to kill people, right, and it

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Speaker 2: made him like a fairly wealthy man. And so yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's the guy we're talking about today, doctor James Grigson,

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Speaker 2: who was born James Paul Grigson Junior on January thirtieth

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Speaker 2: of nineteen thirty two in Texarkana, Texas. And if our

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Speaker 2: listeners haven't been to Texarkana, how would you describe texar Cana.

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Speaker 2: It's like a little bit of Texas, a little bit

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Speaker 2: of Louisiana, a little bit of Oklahoma, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the lake culture is a big thing. Lake Texoma

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Speaker 3: is a huge lake. And so yeah, I think think

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Speaker 3: about kind of the grimy, like you know, swampy bayou

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Speaker 3: culture but it's inland around a lake.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, inland swamp culture is, I guess a good

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Speaker 2: way to put it. When I was a kid, because

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Speaker 2: I grew up in like southern Oklahoma for a while,

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Speaker 2: I had to go there to get allergy shots. So

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Speaker 2: Texarcana is permanently on my shit list. Is like a

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Speaker 2: city of pain, but not for any good reason, just

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Speaker 2: because they had a doctor in the town I grew

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Speaker 2: up and had fuck all, So I guess I shouldn't

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Speaker 2: be angry at them anymore. But yeah, I didn't like

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Speaker 2: any allergy shots anyway. That's where That's where James Paul

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Speaker 2: Griggson Junior is born. His mother is ethel May McLeod

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Speaker 2: and his father is James Paul Griggson Senior. Obviously, we

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Speaker 2: have very little about his upbringing. The few details we

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Speaker 2: do get paint a picture of a kid who came

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Speaker 2: from like a comfortable background, probably upper middle class. It's

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Speaker 2: a little hard for me to tell, but he admitted

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Speaker 2: in a nineteen ninety interview that as a kid, his

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Speaker 2: family's money came from the tombstone business. Right they had

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Speaker 2: a license to sell. There's apparently a trademark type of

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Speaker 2: marble that everyone used to use for headstones that's called

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Speaker 2: rock of ages, right and for whatever. And you had

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Speaker 2: to have like a license to like you had to

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Speaker 2: be like a distributor to sell this shit, right, this

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Speaker 2: one type of fucking marble that only this one company

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Speaker 2: could license, and his family were the only ones who

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Speaker 2: could sell it in like four states, including Arkansas and Texas.

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Speaker 2: So my guess is they did pretty well. Right. That's

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Speaker 2: one of those businesses like people are always going to

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Speaker 2: be dying. So yeah, I mean, the tombstone business not

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Speaker 2: a bad one to be in. And it's interesting to

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Speaker 2: me that kind of from the very earliest moments of

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Speaker 2: his life, this guy's financial comfort is always tied to

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Speaker 2: death as a business right for his whole life.

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Speaker 3: So crazy, it's a bit.

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Speaker 2: Poetic, yeah, it really is. Now. One of the few

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Speaker 2: details that we get of his childhood came from an

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Speaker 2: article called Travels with Doctor Death by journalist Ron Rosenbaum

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Speaker 2: for Vanity Fair, and Rosenbaum quotes him as claiming in

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Speaker 2: this interview quote he and his brother would come home

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Speaker 2: from work and lock themselves into epic, fratricidal chess matches

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Speaker 2: hour after hour, night after night. The doctor's brother went

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Speaker 2: on to become a professional pool shark and gambler, so

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Speaker 2: he's both this very competitive person. His big influence growing

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Speaker 2: up is kind of a con man, right, but he

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Speaker 2: doesn't go for like the petty conman business. He chooses academia, right.

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Speaker 2: That's he and his brother split. His brothers goes off

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Speaker 2: to be a pool shark, but James has got to

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Speaker 2: have that like DNA, that like desired, I've always got

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Speaker 2: to win. And also I have kind of loose morals

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Speaker 2: about how I make my money, right, that seems to

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Speaker 2: be something he and his brother are both kind of

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Speaker 2: sympatico on. He goes to Texas A and M with

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Speaker 2: a small tight group of friends who all opt for

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Speaker 2: careers in the navy, but Jim gravitates towards science and

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Speaker 2: he winds up entering a pre med program. He goes

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Speaker 2: to Southwestern Medical School and while he's starting college. While

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Speaker 2: he's starting medical school, he gets married to Mary Lee

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Speaker 2: Stone and they start having kids, eventually four of them.

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Speaker 2: He supports his growing family by working two full time

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Speaker 2: jobs and three part time jobs at the same time,

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Speaker 2: per his obituary, So that's what his his family would

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Speaker 2: later claim, I don't know, if he's working what is

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Speaker 2: that one hundred and forty hours a week something like

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Speaker 2: that and going to school. But that's what he later claims.

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Speaker 2: This guy is not a reliable narrator, So I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Maybe he's not putting in quite that much effort, or

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Speaker 2: maybe he found some really good bullshit jobs. Either way,

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Speaker 2: he gets into medicine and he really likes doing his

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Speaker 2: clinical rotations. That obituary notes Jim loved the excitement of

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Speaker 2: the emergency room, but the hours of a psychiatrist allowed

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Speaker 2: more family time. He loved the challenge of figuring out puzzles,

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Speaker 2: the human brain being the most complicated. When finished with

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Speaker 2: formal school, Jim thought he could learn more by teaching.

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Speaker 2: He taught psychiatry at Southwestern for four years. During this period,

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Speaker 2: he developed a specialty of forensic psychiatry, which became the

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Speaker 2: passion of his career. And that's the kind of clean

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Speaker 2: version of his backstory that clearly he told his family

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Speaker 2: and that yeah, they wanted to believe, is that he

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Speaker 2: starts teaching and he just kind of develops an interest

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Speaker 2: in forensics psychiatry right as it's developing as a discipline,

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Speaker 2: and just falls in love with the field. Rights, that's

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Speaker 2: what he's saying. So pretty anodyne backstory so far. Nothing

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Speaker 2: too sketchy here, except for the fact that forensic psychiatry

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Speaker 2: kind of has a sketchy history as a discipline. Right.

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Speaker 2: It's not like it's not always been the quest for

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Speaker 2: knowledge of the human brain. A lot of times it's

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Speaker 2: been the quest for like, well, I believe certain things

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Speaker 2: about people that I don't like, and it's really nice

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Speaker 2: to be able to claim scientifically that this is true. Right,

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Speaker 2: you know you've got there's not a thick a line

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Speaker 2: separating psychiatry from phrenology in the early part of the

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Speaker 2: twentieth century as we'd.

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Speaker 3: Like, right, I mean, you know, not to mix up

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Speaker 3: our fields too much. But it dovetails with the lovely

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Speaker 3: practice of lobotomies, which right, some of us wish we

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Speaker 3: could bring back at this point in time for our

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Speaker 3: own just.

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Speaker 2: For mercy's sake. Yeah. Yeah, maybe they had a point, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: A nice pick in the old frontal lobe sounds nice

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Speaker 2: right about now.

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Speaker 3: They might have been onto something like FREYD but that's

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Speaker 3: another conversation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but an.

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Speaker 3: Apt field for someone who may have had a slightly

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Speaker 3: con manesque tendency to fall into in the time of

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Speaker 3: this story.

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Speaker 2: It's a perfect field for that. And you know, it's

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Speaker 2: perfect in part because it's really new, Like forensic psychiatry

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Speaker 2: is an idea was less than a century old when

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Speaker 2: he kind of starts studying it, right, it had kind

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Speaker 2: of begun, I mean it kind of it depends on

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Speaker 2: how you date it, but somewhere around a little over

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Speaker 2: a century to less than a century old when he

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Speaker 2: starts going to school, right, And that doesn't mean that

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Speaker 2: it had been kind of really settled in any sort

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Speaker 2: of way as a discipline for most of that period

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Speaker 2: of time. We kind of start seeing the early gasps

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Speaker 2: of what becomes forensic psychiatry near the middle, you know,

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Speaker 2: in the thirties and forties, the eighteen thirties, eighteen forties

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Speaker 2: to kind of the mid to late eighteen hundreds, and

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Speaker 2: initially when the field first got involved, when kind of

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Speaker 2: psychiatry first starts getting involved in criminal justice, in the

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Speaker 2: solving of crime, and you know, the judging of people

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Speaker 2: who have been accused of crimes. The work of psychiatrists

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Speaker 2: who are getting into that field is kind of initially

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Speaker 2: less focused on what it will be which is, are

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Speaker 2: these people, you know, competent to stand trial? Was this

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Speaker 2: person aware of what they were doing? Are they likely

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Speaker 2: to offend again? It was less It was less focused

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Speaker 2: on stuff like that. Then odd stuff like the adjudication

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Speaker 2: of wills, right Like, Initially, forensic psychiatrists were often brought

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Speaker 2: in because someone would die and give their money to

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Speaker 2: someone the family didn't want it to go to, and

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Speaker 2: so you'd bring in this kind of proto forensic psychiatrist

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Speaker 2: to determine whether or not the person who had died

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Speaker 2: was compassmentous when they signed their will. And I found

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Speaker 2: a really interesting article on this because it dovetails with

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Speaker 2: what Grigson's career is going to become in the American

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Speaker 2: Academy of Psychiatry Law Journal, and that article notes the

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Speaker 2: evidence suggests that post mortem diagnoses of insanity were employed

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Speaker 2: through the middle decades of the nineteenth century to maintain

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Speaker 2: stable and predictable patterns of property conveyance in the New Republic,

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Speaker 2: but such diagnoses then became something of a fad, a

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Speaker 2: way to raid states. Courts and legislatures reacted against that

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Speaker 2: trend during the last decades of the nineteenth century, when

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Speaker 2: fundamental social stability was no longer an issue in order

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Speaker 2: to protect individual testators and limit the power of forensic psychiatry.

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Speaker 2: So it starts off as a way for people to

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Speaker 2: go like, hey, I think I should get some of

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Speaker 2: that guy's money, and if I can hire a better

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Speaker 2: professional than the other guy, right, then I can get this.

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Speaker 2: I can have this adjudicated. And so psychiatrists start throwing

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Speaker 2: themselves I'm an expert on whether or not someone I

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Speaker 2: can tell it by their handwriting or whatever. And it

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Speaker 2: becomes this huge grift and it's just destroying people's estates

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Speaker 2: and ability to inherit. And so the courts have to

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Speaker 2: come and be like all of these fucking psychiatrists who

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Speaker 2: are getting in the middle of the probate process of

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Speaker 2: the estate process are like Conman, and like, we need

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Speaker 2: to get through the fuck out of here. This has

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Speaker 2: to stop. And that basic pattern is going to be

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Speaker 2: repeat itself in the in death penalty cases in Texas

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Speaker 2: from like the seventies through the nineties. Right, But it's

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Speaker 2: the same pattern. So I think it's really interesting that

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Speaker 2: it happens first a century earlier in like the estate

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Speaker 2: and will process just Christ It's so cool, of course, it.

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Speaker 3: Starts with the money, but then as we develop this

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Speaker 3: larger carceral state and institutionalization process, it bleeds into that,

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Speaker 3: and then we I guess, guess, get to what we're

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Speaker 3: talking about today, this guy who seems like a real

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Speaker 3: piece of work based on my brief reading.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And it's interesting because it's kind of killed fairly

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Speaker 2: quickly in a couple of decades. When the thing at

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Speaker 2: risk is rich people's inheritance. Right when it's about that,

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Speaker 2: governments start acting pretty quickly to put the kibosh on

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Speaker 2: it once things get out of hand. So when the

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Speaker 2: grift switches to like, let's just convince juries to kill

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Speaker 2: poor people. When I will talk about how they're doing

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Speaker 2: that later, don't worry. But when it switches to that,

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Speaker 2: there's not as much interest in fixing it, right because

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Speaker 2: no one's got any money. It's cool stuff. You love

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Speaker 2: to see it. So basically, the first forensic psychiatrists, or

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Speaker 2: a lot of the first forensic psychiatrists in this country.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you wouldn't have called them that, but these

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Speaker 2: are you know, they're in that line of ascent. We're

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Speaker 2: hired guns, right that were brought in, you know, in

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Speaker 2: order to come to a specific conclusion based on who

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Speaker 2: was paying them, and that you know, a lot of

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Speaker 2: what was happening here was not really in any way

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Speaker 2: different from bribery. Now, another thing is going on in

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Speaker 2: this this early developing field throughout the middle of the

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Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds, not just in the US, but over in Europe,

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Speaker 2: and this is that the court systems and the legal

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Speaker 2: systems of western nations are increasingly interested in how you

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Speaker 2: define insanity in a legal sense. Right now, this has

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Speaker 2: been done going back, you can go back to classic

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Speaker 2: now you can find cases in like ancient Greece and

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Speaker 2: stuff that you know, are are relevant to this. So

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Speaker 2: there's this is not just you know, a century or

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Speaker 2: so of history in terms of people being interested in

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Speaker 2: and the legal profession. But it really starts to get professionalized,

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Speaker 2: you know, in the middle of the eighteen hundreds, and

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Speaker 2: it's kind of in this early modern period that people

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Speaker 2: start accepting and building into the legal system the idea

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Speaker 2: that someone can be too out of their mind to

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Speaker 2: be is truly responsible for their actions. Right that there

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Speaker 2: is a degree of If a person is you know,

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Speaker 2: dealing a degree with a certain degree of in capacitation,

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Speaker 2: they're not fully responsible for even the most heinous crimes, right,

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Speaker 2: That's one of the things going on here. There's some

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Speaker 2: less positive things going on too, including again eugenics is

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Speaker 2: happening in this period, so there's also interest in how

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Speaker 2: do we determine who's sick so we can stop them

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Speaker 2: from breeding and passing on their sickness. You know, that's

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Speaker 2: the dark side of this. But you know, one of

347
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Speaker 2: the good things is that early defense attorneys are a

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Speaker 2: lot of the people who are most interested in pushing

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Speaker 2: we need to be defining when someone is not compassmentous, right,

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Speaker 2: even if they act absolutely did the crime, because that

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Speaker 2: should matter. And there's a bit of a debate I found,

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Speaker 2: you know, some articles from historians who kind of study

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Speaker 2: the history of insanity as a legal concept. There's a

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Speaker 2: little bit of a debate as to whether or not

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Speaker 2: we should see this medical concept as something that was

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Speaker 2: first pushed by legal experts, primarily defense attorneys, in order

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Speaker 2: and in other words, and thus is an example of

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Speaker 2: the expansion of the power of law. Right that like

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Speaker 2: the law was really responsible for pushing this concept into

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Speaker 2: the science, right, and for incentivizing psychiatrists, early psychiatrists to

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Speaker 2: have an interest in declaring people to be insane. Right,

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Speaker 2: that that was something that came about in part because

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Speaker 2: the law was pushing it. And one of the people

364
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Speaker 2: who argue this was Michelle fucoh Per an article in

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Speaker 2: the Journal of Medical History. Though psychiatric expertise for a

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Speaker 2: brief moment may have been introduced as an alternative mode

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Speaker 2: of power, it soon found its place alongside the law

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Speaker 2: in the medico legal apparatus of the nineteenth century, thereby

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Speaker 2: expanding power rather than usurping it. In this manner, the

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Speaker 2: alleged humanization of punishment in the nineteenth century was countered

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Speaker 2: by the expansion of disciplinary power. In other words, while

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Speaker 2: some of this is good, the fact that we're saying, well,

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Speaker 2: some people really can't be held responsible for their actions,

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Speaker 2: what you're also seeing here is the law asserting a

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Speaker 2: degree of control over like who gets a full set

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Speaker 2: of rights because of their mental state? Right, And that

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Speaker 2: that's kind of the dark side of this.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't just a matter of whether Johnny did a

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Speaker 3: crime and was out of his gourd and yeah, shouldn't

381
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Speaker 3: be held accountable for it. It was a matter of

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Speaker 3: should Jane be put into an institution where their freedom

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Speaker 3: of movement is restricted, and they applied with medications or

384
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Speaker 3: forced to take some sort of procedures they would not

385
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Speaker 3: otherwise have agreed to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if the law is saying, hey, we need you

387
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Speaker 2: to define insanity because we're going to use it to

388
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Speaker 2: declare that certain groups of people are treated differently and

389
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Speaker 2: restricted in different ways by the law, that's really an

390
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Speaker 2: expansion in the power of law in a meaningful way.

391
00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,000
Speaker 2: So Yeah. In other words, there's kind of a couple

392
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,399
Speaker 2: of different magic major developments that set the stage for

393
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Speaker 2: our doctor death right in the late eighteen hundreds in

394
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Speaker 2: the early nineteen hundreds, which is that forensic psychiatrists are

395
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Speaker 2: often being used as hired guns to secure desired results

396
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Speaker 2: in court, and that that's very much at the root

397
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Speaker 2: of the profession, and that the concept of insanity and

398
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 2: definitions of mental health become incorporated into the legal process

399
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Speaker 2: in a way that is going to make medical diagnoses

400
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,600
Speaker 2: a relevant aspect of how the state can prosecute people

401
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,960
Speaker 2: and what it can do to them. Rosenbaum, who's the

402
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,080
Speaker 2: writer who spent the most time with doctor Griggson, describes

403
00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,520
Speaker 2: him as a country boy with a killer instinct who,

404
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,800
Speaker 2: after getting his MD attended a psychiatric residency at Parkland Hospital.

405
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,280
Speaker 2: He again he teaches for a while, but Rosenbaum asserts

406
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Speaker 2: this doesn't provide him with enough of a challenge or

407
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,080
Speaker 2: enough of an opportunity to compete, right, And that's kind

408
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,639
Speaker 2: of this journalist who knows the guy best is like,

409
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Speaker 2: I think it's naturally there's not an adversarial process in

410
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 2: traditional psychiatry, your psychist, it's supposed to be fighting you,

411
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Speaker 2: And like this guy, what's psychiatry? He wants to win

412
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Speaker 2: at psychiatry. So the court process provides him if he

413
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 2: can get involved in court cases, then he's part of

414
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,600
Speaker 2: an adversarial process, which means he can win and someone

415
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,679
Speaker 2: else can lose. And he could prove that he's better

416
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 2: right than someone else put points on the board, could

417
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,440
Speaker 2: put points on the board. Right. The kind of traditional

418
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,159
Speaker 2: way good science and academia's supposed to go did not

419
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 2: suit the quote pool shark at him, and so he decides,

420
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Speaker 2: I'm going to find a way that I can win

421
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,800
Speaker 2: at psychiatry. And that's why he gets into forensic psychiatry. Now,

422
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,680
Speaker 2: Rosenbaum claims it's the duel of wits with dangerous criminals,

423
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Speaker 2: which enthralled Grigson, and this is likely that Grigson would

424
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,399
Speaker 2: say certain things himself. He had some quotes where he

425
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,120
Speaker 2: woud basically be like Batman, like I'm at a war

426
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 2: with crime, right, criminals, Like I'm arraying myself against the

427
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,119
Speaker 2: most dangerous and deadly criminal masterminds in the world. And

428
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 2: he really wants to portray himself as this genius chess master.

429
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 2: He'll talk a lot about his childhood chess games and

430
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 2: then you know, these adversarial process with all these murderers

431
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 2: and whatnot, and he wants you to look at them

432
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,680
Speaker 2: as like he's constantly every week he's fighting Hannibal Lecter, right,

433
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 2: like that's who he's going up it gets. And that's

434
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 2: just not true. That's not at all true. And we're

435
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 2: going to talk about how off this belief he has

436
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 2: about himself that he really pushed in every interview we

437
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 2: ever did is. But first we're going to talk about

438
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 2: some ads. Oh Jesus, yeah, good response to ads, and

439
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 2: we're back. Well, I don't know about you, but I'm

440
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 2: planning on purchasing that product and or service. You know,

441
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 2: I'm gonna use money as a means of exchange in

442
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 2: order to buy goods and services. That sounds fun to me.

443
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 3: We love the money form, We love the Money's podcast.

444
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 2: What kind of money do you use? Steven? Are you

445
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 2: one of those? Do you like to drag around those big,

446
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,919
Speaker 2: like five hundred pounds wheels and whirl them across the

447
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,159
Speaker 2: ground and use those as a means of exchange?

448
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 3: I like cuneiform tablets, yeah, or any anything that you

449
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,679
Speaker 3: can really feel the heft to it when it's in

450
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 3: your pocket.

451
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because that's I like that too, so much

452
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,640
Speaker 2: better than like, I never call a company anymore. I'm

453
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 2: not going to get stuck on the phone with a chatbot.

454
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: If I have a complaint, I'm going to like hammer

455
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 2: into like a mud tablet. I'm gonna hammerer in a

456
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 2: mud and dry it, and then I'm going to mail

457
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 2: that cuneiform tablet to whatever company and complain about the

458
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 2: poor great copper that they're selling me. You know.

459
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:33,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

460
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 3: The only issue is I find that they don't take

461
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 3: it on the online gambling sites that may or may

462
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 3: not have been advertised before this. No, So that's the

463
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 3: that's the one downside. But I'm keeping myself straight these days, So.

464
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 2: I'm doing what I can that's good. Cuneiform is good

465
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 2: for that. Speaking of keeping yourself straight, doctor Grigson is

466
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 2: fascinated by people who can't keep on the straight and narrow, right.

467
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 2: These are had been victual criminals. These are folks who

468
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 2: have serious impulse control issues, which is obviously the majority

469
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 2: of folks who wind up committing capital crimes. Right now,

470
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 2: there is our number of kind of different psychiatric diagnoses

471
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,640
Speaker 2: that we use today for you know this, these kind

472
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 2: of people. The word Grigson uses and the word that

473
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 2: you find over and over again and all of the

474
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 2: reporting on his work is sociopath.

475
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: Right.

476
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 2: He is fascinated with sociopaths. He likes to diagnose people

477
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 2: as sociopaths. Right. And it's very important that you understand,

478
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: because this is my pet peeve. Sociopath and sociopathy are

479
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 2: not medical diagnoses. They absolutely are not. No one is

480
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 2: diagnosed as a sociopath. It's not a medical diagnosis. It

481
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 2: is a term people like to use because they think

482
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 2: it is, but it's not.

483
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 3: Now.

484
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 2: It used to be the term that was proper that

485
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 2: people tended to use kind of interchangeably with sociopath is psychopath, right,

486
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 2: And psychopathy is what a lot of a lot of

487
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 2: these people, a lot of like people who commit murder,

488
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: particularly people who again are kind of these career criminals,

489
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 2: career violent criminals who have a lot of issues with

490
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 2: impulse control, who don't really seem to have much in

491
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 2: the way of empathy. Psychopathy is the term that was

492
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 2: used for a long time to describe them. We don't

493
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 2: use that anymore, right. The current diagnosis that those people

494
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 2: tend to be given today is antisocial personality disorder or APD, right,

495
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 2: which is replaced what we call psychopathy. Right. But it's

496
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 2: important you know that at the time doctor Grigson was working,

497
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: psychopath would have been the medical term for the people

498
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 2: that he was declaring to be sociopaths. And when you're

499
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 2: talking to like a regular person, like when your friends like,

500
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 2: oh yeah, man, my boss did this or this, and

501
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 2: I think he's a sociopath, It's fine, I don't care.

502
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: I'm not going to I don't correct somebody. Just in

503
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 2: your daily life. If you're a psychiatrist, you should get

504
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 2: the term right. Right. You shouldn't just make You should

505
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: just be using a term that's not a medical diagnosis

506
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 2: for a guy that you're declaring has an illness that

507
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 2: makes him more dangerous for the purpose of a death

508
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 2: penalty hearing, right, which is what's going on here. This

509
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 2: just really bugs me.

510
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 3: Now.

511
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 2: Psychopaths, which is again the term when he's doing these diagnoses,

512
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 2: or people with APD, which is what we use today,

513
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 2: are people who don't feel guilty for impulsive or violent actions.

514
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 2: They lie to others easily and without qualm, They rarely

515
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 2: have close relationships, and they often fall into criminal behavior.

516
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 2: Hannibal Lecter is probably still the number one cultural touchstone

517
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 2: as to what we used to call psychopaths. But the

518
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: vast majority of people with APD are not geniuses, and

519
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 2: they're not good planners.

520
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 3: Right.

521
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 2: That's kind of a key aspect. This isn't everyone, but

522
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 2: most people with APD have a horrible impulse control. They're

523
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 2: not good at planning. They're not good at like plotting

524
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: out genius getaways.

525
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 3: Right.

526
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 2: That's why a lot of these people get caught is

527
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 2: they don't tend to be a lot of it talks

528
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 2: about how they below average IQ. I have my issues

529
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 2: with IQ, but these are not people who make good

530
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: decisions that allow them to be like Dexter, right, They're

531
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,360
Speaker 2: not a one step ahead of the authorities. They're deciding

532
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 2: in a moment to commit a violent crime and then

533
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 2: running like fucking leaving a shitload of evidence. That's the norm, Right.

534
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 2: These people are not masterminds. The ones who are you know,

535
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 2: you know, might have been diagnosed to psychopac or of APD,

536
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 2: who don't have these problems, who do have good impulse control,

537
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 2: who are better at planning. We no tend to gravitate

538
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,959
Speaker 2: towards one of a couple of different careers. They are

539
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 2: overrepresented in business, like MBA's executives. They are overrepresented in

540
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 2: law enforcement, and they are overrepresented in the clergy. These

541
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 2: are they go for jobs. The folks who do have

542
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 2: that hannibal lector mastermind capability, they go for jobs where

543
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 2: they're protected right by what their their job is, or

544
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 2: people don't look at them or assume because of their

545
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 2: social status that they'll be doing the fucked up shit

546
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 2: that they're doing.

547
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: Right.

548
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 3: It also provides them a certain amount of power to

549
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 3: wheel over others to fulfill whatever those twisted desires are

550
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 3: and then cover it up should they need to.

551
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 2: Right, And there's there's also like, you know, like all

552
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 2: of this stuff is a spectrum, Right, people have aspects

553
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 2: of this, like you know, the there's a degree to

554
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 2: which certain things that we tend to attribute to this

555
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 2: group of people, like not being overly empathetic, can be

556
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 2: a benefit. If you're a surgeon, maybe it's not that

557
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 2: bad that you don't really get bothered by cutting into

558
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 2: somebody because your job is to cut into people, right,

559
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 2: which insurgents are overrepresented, you know, with aspects of kind

560
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: of the things, And this criteria has been shifting. We've

561
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 2: really started to accept in the last couple of decades that,

562
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 2: like our old diagnoses of psychopathy were pretty flawed, and

563
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: they're still pretty flawed, but like you know, we were

564
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 2: moving towards a more rational understanding of this whole phenomenon.

565
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 2: But it's important to know that even by the standards

566
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: of the time, doctor Grigson, when he talks about these

567
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 2: these murderers who he calls sociopaths, he's just wrong, Like

568
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 2: he's just strong by the medical standards of the time

569
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 2: and certainly by the standards of the day. So in

570
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: the nineteen sixties, you know, fascinated by sociopaths, doctor Grigson

571
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 2: starts selling himself as a forensic psychiatrist to prosecutors and

572
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 2: defense attorneys. Initially, his business is limited to what we're

573
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 2: called competency exams. You know, this is deciding if it

574
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 2: defend into saying for the purposes of standing trial. And

575
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 2: you know, there's nothing wrong necessarily with that idea. I mean,

576
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 2: there's some issues with how it was applied, but this

577
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 2: is not immediately a problematic field. He would claim that

578
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 2: he got into doing this because when he first started

579
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 2: he had a lot of arrant beliefs about psychiatry as

580
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: a result of his liberal education. Quote at first I

581
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 2: got the shit connd out of me, and medical school

582
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 2: I was as liberal as any psychiatrist you'll ever meet.

583
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 2: You know, most psychiatrists will say, if you commit a crime,

584
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 2: there's something wrong with you. And I don't really think

585
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 2: that's true because like most people who commit crimes, it's like,

586
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 2: I don't most psychiatrists would be like, oh, you're you

587
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 2: got like a possession of small amount of marijuana, you

588
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 2: must have a mental illness or right, or you didn't

589
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: pay a speeding ticket for too long because you couldn't

590
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 2: afford it and you got a warrant, you have a

591
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 2: mental ill And that's like even like petty theft I

592
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 2: get very rarely is going to get you diagnosed with

593
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 2: a mental illness, Like I don't think most psychiatrists say this, No, no,

594
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 2: not at all, No. And it's you know, it's also

595
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: probably not even the case with murder necessarily, right, because

596
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 2: most of the evidence, even at that time, suggests that

597
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: the majority of murders are crimes of passion, right, which

598
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 2: is people who are otherwise sane and who are otherwise functional,

599
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 2: who lose their shit in a moment in a disastrous way, right,

600
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 2: not somebody who they're not. But most murderers are not

601
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 2: people who want to keep murdering, right. It's like a

602
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 2: thing that happens in a moment of passion. And you know,

603
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: it's debatable generally as to whether or not there's anything

604
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 2: you would diagnose them with. So I just think he's

605
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 2: I think he's miss like he's describing the rest of

606
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,239
Speaker 2: his feel badly because his entire career is going to

607
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: be spent defining himself in awe position to every other psychiatrist,

608
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 2: Like he hates everyone else in this discipline because he

609
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:06,719
Speaker 2: thinks they're all wrong, so he has to make up

610
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 2: lies about what his fellows are doing. So he claims that,

611
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 2: like he comes in with all these ideas about you know, oh,

612
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 2: all these people must just be sick, and then he

613
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 2: spends several thousand hours interviewing accused murderers and he starts

614
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 2: to understand, Oh, no, all of the other psychiatrists are wrong.

615
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 2: These people aren't sick. Quote, they were just mean. I

616
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: often think there ought to be a diagnosis, you know, mean,

617
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 2: son of a bitch. So really good scientist here. Just

618
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 2: that sounds rigorous, that's falsifiable. I love a psychiatrist who

619
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: says shit like this.

620
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 3: Incredible, incredible. I'm trying to imagine someone in a modern

621
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 3: profession just saying that they spoke to a bunch of people. Yeah,

622
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 3: I mean, it reminds me of thinking that it has

623
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 3: something to do with humors, like, oh, they're just all mean.

624
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 2: They got means son of a bitch disease.

625
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 3: Nothing more to it. He can't read into it any further.

626
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's literally like that's from The Simpsons when Homer

627
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 2: gets an elephant at the end, where there's like some

628
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 2: animals are just dicks. So over time, he goes from

629
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: declaring people not competent or competent to stand trial to

630
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 2: declaring more and more defendants perfectly sane. Right Like he

631
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: starts as he's doing this, coming to the conclusion that

632
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 2: like almost nobody deserves to, you know, get off or

633
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 2: deserves to have you know, their sentence mitigated as the

634
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 2: result of this, and his justification for this shift is

635
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 2: something that he kind of perfectly crafted from his media

636
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 2: appearances to appeal to the law and order set in

637
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 2: North Texas, which is where he mostly practiced. Quote these days,

638
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 2: when they'll have tears fallen down from their eyes, I've

639
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: learned to give this response. You can knock that shit off.

640
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 2: You're not fooling me a bit, and you can't believe it.

641
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 2: Tears will just dry up like that. Okay, So he's

642
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 2: crafting his image perfectly for the place and time that

643
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: he's set in, right this, this is going to go

644
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 2: over pretty well with juries. He's very popular with Texas

645
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 2: jury's for a long time. He also wears a cowboy

646
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 2: hat a lot of the time, which is like de

647
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 2: rigueur for a certain kind of guy. Anyway, it's a

648
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 2: little unclear to me whether or not, you know, he

649
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 2: ever had a liberal period as a psychiatrist. If this

650
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 2: is just again part of the image he crafts because

651
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: it sells well that like, oh, I used to be

652
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 2: one of those liberal soft on crime weenies, but then

653
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 2: I learned the truth. Right either way, he starts testifying

654
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 2: about the mental status of people accused of capital crimes

655
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty seven, and the main shift here is

656
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: that he's no longer testifying is this person competent to

657
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 2: stand trial? After sixty seven? He's primarily testifying should this

658
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 2: person be subjected to the death penalty? Right? And to

659
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: explain why, why is a psychiatrist involved in this? Why

660
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 2: does that matter? Right? Why would you allow a psychiatrists

661
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,239
Speaker 2: to testify about this? This comes down to something that

662
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 2: is not quite unique to Texas, but is almost unique

663
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: to Texas in this period. So his first year's pcting

664
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 2: come during a very messy time for the death penalty.

665
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 3: Right.

666
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 2: There are a bunch of subcommittees and committee meetings in

667
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 2: the early seventies after there's this kind of moratorium and

668
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 2: the death penalty in Texas where they're trying to figure out,

669
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 2: how do we as a modern state continue to have

670
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 2: a death penalty? What should that look like?

671
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: Right?

672
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 2: Because you know we're past the ages and Texas rangers

673
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 2: just going in and hanging people. Right, we can't do

674
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 2: that anymore, you know, Walker, Texas ranger doesn't look nearly

675
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 2: as good if he's literally putting people into gallows. So

676
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 2: how do we actually like build this into our system

677
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 2: in a way that's modern? And this is this is

678
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 2: part of there's this massive debate nationwide at the federal

679
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 2: level over the death penalty and like what the laws

680
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 2: should be about it in Texas. Being Texas, we're going

681
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 2: to want to find a way to both keep executing

682
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 2: people and justify it as a matter of necessity.

683
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 3: Right.

684
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 2: We don't want to seem backwards while we're doing it. So,

685
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,280
Speaker 2: like most Texas laws, the process of creating a modern

686
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 2: death penalty standard to kind of replace the old ways

687
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 2: was rushed and messy. Texas Law Review describes the Texas

688
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 2: legislature's process as quote somewhat confused, which is generally accurate.

689
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 2: Legislature works today. Time is a flat circle, my friend.

690
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 3: Generous description, Yeah.

691
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 2: Generous description. Kind to the state and the House and Senate,

692
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 2: who both wind up with different and conflicting standards. Right,

693
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 2: they both proposed like very different sets of rules for

694
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 2: how the death penalty off ought to work, and they

695
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 2: find themselves having to reconcile this in a very short timeframe.

696
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 2: And I want to quote from a passage by the

697
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 2: Texas Law Review to give you an idea of how

698
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 2: messy the process was. With only Memorial Day weekend to

699
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 2: go before adjournment, the House called a conference committee to

700
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 2: resolve the differences between the two bills. On the very

701
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 2: last day, the conferees presented a scheme which appeared in

702
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 2: neither the House nor the Senate bill, along with newly

703
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 2: minted language about a probability that the defendant would be

704
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 2: a continuing threat. That same day, both houses passed the

705
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 2: committee report by huge margins without specifically considering the new

706
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 2: languge on future dangerousness. So to get out, in order

707
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 2: to get out for the long weekend. After like deliberating

708
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: and coming up with their own plans, they back something

709
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 2: completely different that no one's read, because like, look, man,

710
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 2: are we going to give up? We I got to

711
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 2: get out to the lake like it's hot.

712
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 3: It's hot during the legislature. You gotta get that often. Yeah,

713
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 3: come on, got the barbecue ready to go.

714
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 2: Right right? So the vague and poorly written nature of

715
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 2: the initial legalies leads to several years of disputes and

716
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: ultimately a State Supreme Court case in nineteen seventy six.

717
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 2: The system that results from this is indeed a modern one,

718
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 2: and that it creates a several step roadmap towards deciding

719
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 2: when and who would be executed. Right, Basically, there's a

720
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 2: the Texas legislature builds a flow chart of death to determine, like,

721
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 2: we've convicted this guy, should we kill him? So the

722
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 2: first thing that has to happen is the jurors have

723
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 2: to agree unanimously that the convicted murder had deliberately sought

724
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 2: out to kill their victim. Right, if somebody just like

725
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: drunk and hit someone with a car, that's not a

726
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 2: death penalty case. Right, there's not a deliberate intent there,

727
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 2: you know. Or if you're just Yosemite samming and accidentally

728
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 2: shoots some guy, there's not intent. So the next thing

729
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 2: they have to agree on is that there's some probability

730
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: that the defendant would go on to carry out future

731
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: acts of violence. And then the third thing they have

732
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 2: to decide is that, having taken everything that happened into account,

733
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 2: there had been no provocation that had inspired the murderous violence. Right,

734
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 2: So someone didn't punch you and then you shot them,

735
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 2: and you know that's not an equivalent exchange of force,

736
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: but you were provoked, right, That would kind of disqualify

737
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 2: you from the death penalty, even if you'd get punished otherwise. Now,

738
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 2: of these three points, you know, the first I don't

739
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 2: agree with their being this with a state like ours

740
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 2: doing the death penalty, but those the first and third

741
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 2: point are at least like, I see why they're in there, right.

742
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 2: You want to make sure this is isn't just a

743
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 2: crime of passion, and you want to make sure they're

744
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: like this, there's an a mitigating factor, right, that this

745
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 2: wasn't part of a fight. That second one, though, that

746
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 2: it's really problematic. That's pre crime shit, right, I mean

747
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 2: they've committed a they've been a convicted of a crime.

748
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 2: But you are asking a jury to say, in the future,

749
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 2: will this person do violence if not killed. You're asking

750
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 2: the jury to step outside of any evidence and make

751
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 2: a prediction about someone's future behavior. Do you see how

752
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:20,760
Speaker 2: that's maybe a problem.

753
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I mean, it's certainly a distinction. And the

754
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 3: only parallel I can think of is whether someone is

755
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 3: released on bail or not because they might be considered

756
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 3: some sort of flight risk or maybe a public safety risk.

757
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 3: But if you contain that within the boundaries of holding

758
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 3: someone in detainment or holding them behind.

759
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 2: Bars, right, this isn't a permanent status. We're not determining

760
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 2: this person's whole life, right, you know, even though that

761
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 2: doesn't make it not problematic.

762
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 3: Yet there's a possibility that they could, you know, spend

763
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 3: time in jail and show that they are of no

764
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 3: threat and then you release, right, So yeah, I mean

765
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,280
Speaker 3: it is it is a huge difference. It's it's requiring

766
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 3: people to look into the future with yes, no real basis.

767
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is which is like weird. Right. And so

768
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 2: this second thing, right, this second like point on the

769
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 2: flow chart becomes known to the legal community in Texas

770
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 2: as special issue number two. Right, And that's really what

771
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 2: a lot of death penalty cases and are going to

772
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 2: come down to a special issue number two. Right, is

773
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 2: this person going to commit more violent crimes if they

774
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 2: are left alive, you know, for the rest of their

775
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 2: life in prison or whatever. And this is almost unique

776
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 2: in western jurisprudence.

777
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: Right.

778
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 2: In essence, the state of Texas has codified the duty

779
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 2: of a jury in death penalty cases to predict the future.

780
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 2: Only one other state in the United States required a

781
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,399
Speaker 2: finding a future dangerousness when considering the death penalty. It's

782
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 2: such a niche piece of like legal theory or legal

783
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 2: you know, procedure, that very few people outside of Texas

784
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 2: are even aware that special issue number two exists, And

785
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 2: the broader national psychiatric community doesn't seem to really have

786
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 2: initially seen this as an issue that might concern in

787
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 2: their discipline, right, because they're you know, it's just that

788
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 2: they've got fifty states they're not concerned with like this initially,

789
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 2: as like, why would you even think psychiatrists would get

790
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 2: involved in the special issue number two? Right? This would

791
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 2: prove to be an error because if juries were now

792
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 2: going to be asked to determine will a person kill

793
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 2: again if left alive, prosecutors are going to start looking

794
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 2: to hire experts, special experts for court cases who can

795
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 2: speak to what kind of behavior is predictable for what

796
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 2: kind of defendant. So doctor Grickson is going to be

797
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 2: among if not the very first of these guys of

798
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 2: these psychiatrists, right, And he describes how he fell into

799
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 2: this line of work in doing so as a natural

800
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 2: evolution of his previous work. Per an article, in time,

801
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 2: he was going about his normal duties, evaluating people for

802
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,399
Speaker 2: commitment proceedings, when quote one court veteran suddenly thought, hey,

803
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 2: here's a sane psychiatrist. Instead of playing golf on Wednesday,

804
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 2: I started doing legal work. Right, So that happens in

805
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 2: like the early seventies. He started, like he's been kind

806
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 2: of evaluating people in a similar way for a while,

807
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: but now it's sort of codified into like, this is

808
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 2: how we're determining whether or not to execute people, you know.

809
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 2: By the mid seventies, and in short order, court cases

810
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,240
Speaker 2: now take up most of his professional time. He's making

811
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 2: like one hundred dollars an hour, bringing in some sixty

812
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 2: one thousand dollars a year in the seventies, which is

813
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands today. This is a lot of money

814
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 2: in the seventies. Yeah, this is probably somewhere in the

815
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 2: neighborhood of a quarter of a million dollars a year in

816
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 2: modern money. Right, And he's again he's doing like a

817
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 2: day of work a week, right, So nice gig if

818
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 2: you can get it.

819
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got the pat sage Jack career path.

820
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 2: Yeah. When interviewed about doctor Grigson, University of Texas law

821
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 2: professor George Dick said he is skillful and persuasive, and

822
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 2: he doesn't talk down to the jury. Most importantly, Dick said,

823
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 2: Grigson is more willing than most colleagues to make predictions

824
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 2: about a defendant's future behavior and really strong ones. Right.

825
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 2: He's willing to say this person will definitely, as opposed

826
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 2: to other psychiatris who get up and be like, well,

827
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 2: you know, it's not uncommon for people with this to reoffend.

828
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: But I can't say he will say, oh, I can

829
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 2: guarantee you one hundred percent this person will kill again

830
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 2: if you don't execute them now, right, You're not supposed

831
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 2: to do that.

832
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 3: No, he was given his clients what they were paying for.

833
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 2: It sounds like, yes, exactly. And there's going to be

834
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 2: research in the future that shows that when whether or

835
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 2: not psychiatrists are hired by the defense or prosecution, biases

836
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 2: their findings on individuals that they're asked to like evaluate, right,

837
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 2: that like, yeah, who is paying you matters, you know,

838
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 2: and that's important. None of this is blind. It's not

839
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 2: the court hiring someone to say, just tell us one

840
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 2: way or the other. Right, This is prosecution being like

841
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 2: I want another I want to put a death penalty

842
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 2: thing on my belt, you know, like make sure this

843
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 2: guy we can fry this son of a bitch. Now,

844
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 2: this is again not something that psychiatrists should be doing,

845
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 2: or that was ever considered to be okay within the

846
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 2: mainstream of psychiatry in this period. But doctor Grigson takes

847
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 2: it upon himself to make himself Texas's most recognized expert

848
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 2: on whether or not someone will kill again if left alive.

849
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,839
Speaker 2: Writing for Vanity Fair, Rosenbaum describes quote, this is where

850
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 2: the doctor comes in. He'll take the stand, listen to

851
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 2: a recitation of facts about the killing and the killer,

852
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,240
Speaker 2: and then, usually without examining the defendant, without ever setting

853
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 2: eyes on him until the day of the trial, tell

854
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 2: the jury that as a matter of medical science, he

855
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,760
Speaker 2: can assure them the defendant will pose a continuing danger

856
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 2: to society as defined by number two. That's all it takes.

857
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 2: What makes the doctor so effective, Both prosecution and defense

858
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 2: lawyers will tell you this is his bedside manner with

859
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 2: the jury. He is kindly gregarious, country doctor manner. His reassuring,

860
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 2: beautifully modulated East Texas drawl helped jurors get over the

861
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 2: hump and do the deed, says one bitter defense lawyer.

862
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 2: He's kind of like a Marcus Welby who tells you

863
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 2: it's okay to kill Jesus.

864
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 3: So he basically does the least amount of work possible

865
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 3: and comes out with the most certain opinion possible.

866
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 2: Yes, with the most certain opinion, he does, and he's

867
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 2: not again you were There's a whole thing about this,

868
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,399
Speaker 2: the Goldwater Rule based on you know, that guy who

869
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 2: was considered a crazy conservative, and so psychiatrist started like

870
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 2: diagnosing him on TV as like you know, paranoid and whatever,

871
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 2: and the discipline. The APA was like, you can't do that.

872
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 2: You never met the man. You can't. You can't just

873
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 2: diagnose a guy from television. And he's not even diagnosing

874
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 2: them from TV. He's like sitting across from a dude

875
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 2: reading a police summary of the crime and going like, oh, yeah,

876
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 2: let me tell you what this guy's got.

877
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: Insane, so insane and getting paid so much money.

878
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,760
Speaker 2: Getting paid a lot of money. By the way, Marcus Welby,

879
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 2: MD was a TV show about a doctor.

880
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 3: Wow.

881
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, James Brolin played one of the characters. So there

882
00:44:56,239 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 2: you go, James Brolin. So this is like, this is

883
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,479
Speaker 2: bad ethics, and this kind of starts initially when he's

884
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 2: doing this, he's using he'll go in and he'll talk,

885
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 2: he will interview the defendant and he'll pretend but he'll

886
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 2: interview them with her false pretenses. He'll interview them under

887
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 2: the pretenses of determining whether or not they're sane. And

888
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: then sometimes he'll even be paid to do both. He'll

889
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,319
Speaker 2: be paid to determine whether or not they're sane, and

890
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 2: then he will use that same analysis of them in

891
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 2: order to say, oh, yeah, this guy will definitely kill again, right,

892
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:33,359
Speaker 2: which is really ethically questionable. The fact that he's effectively

893
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 2: interviewing people under false pretenses in order to diagnose them.

894
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,839
Speaker 2: And what is you know, like, there's a lot that's

895
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 2: going to be like very questionable about this to a

896
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 2: lot of people. But you know, in you know, the

897
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 2: mid seventies, late you know, late sixties, mid seventies, when

898
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 2: kind of he ramps up doing this, there's just not

899
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:55,439
Speaker 2: a lot of eyes on him. Right. In nineteen seventy five,

900
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 2: the National Institute of Mental Health publishes a monograph titled

901
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 2: Mental Health and Law, which is based on extensive research

902
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 2: of psychiatrists who had attempted to predict long term criminal

903
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 2: behavior in their patients, and it found that there was

904
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 2: no reliable criteria for long term predictions like the ones

905
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,800
Speaker 2: doctor Grigson had started to make for alacarte payments. But again,

906
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 2: there wasn't really an idea that anyone would do this

907
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 2: for money the way that he was. So he's not

908
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 2: initially drawing a lot of attention for acting as like

909
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 2: a gig worker for the electric chair. You know, he

910
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 2: keeps testifying in case after case throughout the late seventies

911
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,839
Speaker 2: and for an idea of how uniquely prolific he is.

912
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 2: By nineteen seventy six, which is two years after the

913
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 2: Texas State Supreme Court ruling, Grigson had testified against more

914
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 2: than twenty five percent of people on death row right,

915
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 2: so he had declared more than a quarter of people

916
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 2: set to be executed by Texas to be in curable

917
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 2: sociopaths who would kill again. Like that's those are the

918
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 2: kind of numbers he's putting up.

919
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 3: Wow. Well, and because there's no overlapping set of ethics

920
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 3: between the medical profession and the legal profession. Nothing that

921
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 3: he did in the court of law was necessarily illegal, no,

922
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 3: even if it clearly went against basic ethics right in

923
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 3: the medical field.

924
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's that's kind of where things because things

925
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 2: are going to come to a head in the Supreme

926
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:21,919
Speaker 2: Court a couple of times over this, over the fact

927
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 2: that everyone in his medical discipline is saying this is bad,

928
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: but it's not illegal. Right. So while he is initially

929
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 2: kind of lonely, if not quite singular in doing this

930
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 2: for a living, he people start following him when they

931
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 2: realize how much money there is. There's so many capital

932
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,359
Speaker 2: cases in Texas, there's plenty of them for a number

933
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,319
Speaker 2: of psychiatrists. And people realize he's spending like a day

934
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 2: a week and getting like fucking sixty grand a year.

935
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 2: Fuck it, you know, hell, like a day a week

936
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 2: for sixty grand is pretty good money today. You know,

937
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 2: like a lot of people would kill for that gick.

938
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 2: So there had been interest. This is not a thing

939
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 2: like I don't want to paint it as like no

940
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 2: one had ever considered prior to Grigson, trying to predict

941
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 2: violent criminal behavior as that study I just quoted from

942
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 2: noted this had been something psychiatrists had considered, but like

943
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 2: the data suggested that like, no, we're really bad at this.

944
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 2: And a number of studies published in the seventies were

945
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 2: analyzed in nineteen eighty one by Professor J. Monahan for

946
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,359
Speaker 2: a paper title the Clinical Prediction of Violent Behavior. An

947
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 2: amicust brief filed to the US Supreme Court, but the

948
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:34,800
Speaker 2: American Psychiatric Association summarizes, quote, no psychiatric procedures or techniques

949
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 2: had succeeded in reducing the high rate of false positive predictions,

950
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 2: that is, affirmative predictions of future violent behavior that are

951
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 2: subsequently proven erroneous. Professor Monaghan observed that, even allowing for

952
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,359
Speaker 2: possible distortions in certain of the research data, it would

953
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 2: be fair to conclude that the best clinical research currently

954
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 2: in existence indicates that psychiatrists and psychologists are accurate and

955
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 2: no more than one out of three predictions of violent

956
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 2: behavior over a several year period. So the APA this

957
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 2: comes up like there's a Supreme Court case in nineteen

958
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 2: eighty one over what Grigson is doing, and it's over

959
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:09,439
Speaker 2: a couple of issues. Number one, the fact that he's

960
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 2: carrying out a lot of these evaluations under false pretenses.

961
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 2: He's taking data for a competency hearing, and he's using

962
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:17,879
Speaker 2: it to determine whether or not someone will kill again,

963
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 2: and just the whole issue with can we even let

964
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 2: psychiatrists predict this sort of thing? And the APA files

965
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 2: a brief saying, our best guess is that the most

966
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 2: accurate we can be is like thirty percent or so, right,

967
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 2: which is not accurate enough for determining whether or not

968
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 2: people should fucking die. And that's like the data that

969
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court's going to happen.

970
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: I mean, it's higher than I thought it would be.

971
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 2: It's actually much lower than that. Again, this is the

972
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 2: data they have in the in eighty one, right, but

973
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:51,879
Speaker 2: it's low enough to show that, like what he's doing

974
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 2: is an ethical And this is kind of the first

975
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 2: time doctor Grigson blows up and there's there's a little

976
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 2: bit of a media circus around this case and around

977
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 2: doctor Griggson, and this is when he starts being identified

978
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 2: as doctor Death in like a big way. I found

979
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 2: a nineteen eighty one Time article titled they call him

980
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 2: Doctor Death that really does a good job of summarizing

981
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 2: how slap dash a lot of his analyzes are right,

982
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 2: and this is based on reporting about like how he

983
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 2: worked that became a part of the Supreme Court case.

984
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:21,880
Speaker 2: He believes that during an hour of examining a defendants

985
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 2: past and searching for remorse, he can determine the likelihood

986
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,399
Speaker 2: of future violence. Some prisoners really get their rocks off

987
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 2: telling you about these horrible crimes, he says. In a

988
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 2: few cases, griggs isn't has offered an opinion without conducting

989
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,359
Speaker 2: an interview, relying only on the suspects record. With enough

990
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 2: evidence and arrests, he maintains, you can show where a

991
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:39,919
Speaker 2: person is coming from. About the third of the time

992
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 2: the pre trial interview convinces Griggson there is hope for

993
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 2: the defendant, and he doesn't testify for the prosecution. Dallas

994
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 2: defense attorney Richard Anderson suggests that Gregson fills a psychological

995
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 2: need of jurors when they're making a life or death decision.

996
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:53,359
Speaker 2: They want to believe an individual who would do these

997
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 2: horrible things as a different species from them. He tells

998
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 2: them this person doesn't deserve to live. He makes a

999
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 2: decision easier, right.

1000
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 3: Right, right about turning them into some other category of person,

1001
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 3: like we were talking about and he's doing it with

1002
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,240
Speaker 3: all the rigor of a body language analyst on Fox News.

1003
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 2: That's exactly it, right, But these people don't know should

1004
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 2: they just see, Well, he is a doctor, he's a psychiatrist.

1005
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 2: He must know he's using he's talking you know well

1006
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 2: about it, you know, based on me being a layman

1007
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 2: and not knowing that none of these things are like

1008
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 2: genuinely things that he can diagnose. So you know, this

1009
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 2: is like frustrating, right, And part of what makes this

1010
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 2: frustrating is that he's not operating in like a bubble here, right, Like.

1011
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:43,879
Speaker 2: The problem isn't thus just you've got this doctor death

1012
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 2: psychiatrist telling juries to kill people. The problem is that

1013
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 2: most death made inmates are very poor men, right, who

1014
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 2: do not have resources to put towards their defense. We

1015
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 2: are mostly talking about people represented by public defenders. And

1016
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 2: I have friends who are public defenders, who are in

1017
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 2: public defense of the hardest jobs in the world. I

1018
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 2: have a lot of respect for it. It is also

1019
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 2: true that it is very common for people, especially in

1020
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 2: Texas in this period of time, for lawyers who are

1021
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 2: not qualified, who are not good at their job, to

1022
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 2: wind up representing these guys because These are the absolute

1023
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 2: shittiest shit cases, right, there's no chance you're going to

1024
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 2: win usually, and a lot of these, you know, we'll

1025
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 2: talk some about the data, but there's a lot of

1026
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,840
Speaker 2: bad representation going on here. And there's also just a

1027
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 2: lack of resources because prosecutors are much better funded than

1028
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 2: public defenders, So prosecutors can pay to bring in doctor Grigson,

1029
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 2: whereas a public defender may not be able to bring

1030
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 2: in someone of equal gravity. Right, they can't afford a

1031
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 2: medical professional, so you wind up when doctor Grigson takes

1032
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 2: the stand, he's being cross examined by some guy who

1033
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:53,240
Speaker 2: next to him seems like a Yoko Country lawyer questioning

1034
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 2: a man of science, right, right, Right.

1035
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:58,720
Speaker 3: Even if they could bring in an expert of their own,

1036
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 3: there's the fundamental ethical problem that puts them in the

1037
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 3: bind where they're going up against someone who's willing to

1038
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 3: cross all these boundaries. Even if they could afford the

1039
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:12,359
Speaker 3: best person to oppose them, it's very unlikely, if not

1040
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 3: totally uncertain, they would not go out there and say,

1041
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 3: this person's never going to do anything about again.

1042
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:22,320
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, The best case scenario probably if you're hiring

1043
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,919
Speaker 2: like an ethical you know medical professionals that he says, well,

1044
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 2: I can't say for certain one way or the other,

1045
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 2: and doctor Death says, I can you know, right right, yeah, exactly.

1046
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 2: Speaking of things you can't trust, it's your.

1047
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,359
Speaker 3: Introduction of the ad break is what we can't trust.

1048
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 2: Right No, No, I mean it's the only thing you

1049
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:52,400
Speaker 2: can trust, you know, abandon your families, worship products, Jesus Christ,

1050
00:53:55,719 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 2: and we're back. Uh yeah, we're back giving out good advice.

1051
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 3: So that was a heart listen.

1052
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they can't be gym. So if they can't

1053
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 2: be gyms, speaking of things that can't all be Jim's

1054
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 2: defense attorneys that said, there are defense attorneys, and there

1055
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 2: are their medical professionals, right who from you know, kind

1056
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 2: of the late seventies early eighties start to take issue

1057
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 2: with what doctor Death is doing, right, which is kind

1058
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 2: of what brings that Supreme Court case I had been

1059
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 2: mentioning in nineteen eighty one. Right, So there's one big

1060
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 2: case in nineteen eighty one, and kind of the result

1061
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 2: of that case is very mixed. Doctor Grison is told,

1062
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 2: you can't use competency reviews to determine whether or not

1063
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:38,720
Speaker 2: somebody will offend again. You can't just like basically double

1064
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,319
Speaker 2: dip this this thing, and you can't do it under

1065
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 2: false pretenses. If you are going to evaluate someone to

1066
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 2: determine whether or not they're incurably criminally insane and will

1067
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 2: kill again, you have to tell them that's why you're

1068
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 2: talking to them, right. But the Supreme Court also says,

1069
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 2: but you also don't need to talk to anyone like

1070
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,880
Speaker 2: you could just say shit like that part's five. Actually,

1071
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:05,800
Speaker 2: So it is this classic Supreme Court really where it's like, oh, good,

1072
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 2: I think we're on the right trail. Nope, nope, you

1073
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 2: just actually made it worse. You just made it like

1074
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 2: much worse. So that's nineteen eighty one, and then the

1075
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 2: next major battle in this conflict is going to erupt

1076
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 2: again at the US Supreme Court. In two years. There

1077
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 2: are two cases involving doctor Grigson at the US Supreme Court.

1078
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:27,959
Speaker 2: That's how fucked up a psychiatrist. This is like, that's

1079
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 2: a lot crazy. So this this nineteen eighty three case

1080
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:38,839
Speaker 2: is Barefoot v Estelle. Now, the underlying case that had

1081
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 2: started us earlier before it got to the Supreme Court.

1082
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 2: Case is a murder case obviously, and the gist of

1083
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 2: that case is that a man with the very unlikely

1084
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,240
Speaker 2: name of Thomas Barefoot was convicted of murdering a police officer.

1085
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 2: So his Texas Jerry has to determine whether or not

1086
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 2: he's Barefoot. Yeah, yeah, fucking what a weird name, Thomas Barefoot.

1087
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,879
Speaker 2: So he goes to he gets convicted, and so after

1088
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:03,760
Speaker 2: he's convicted, a juryus to decide do we death penalty

1089
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 2: this motherfucker? And obviously it comes down to that future

1090
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 2: dangerousness question once again, and two psychiatrists are brought in

1091
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 2: to give their opinions, and one of those psychiatrists is

1092
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 2: doctor Grigson. By this point in the early eighties, what

1093
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 2: had started, you know, Gregson had been not maybe the

1094
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 2: only guys starting it, but the major what it's a

1095
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:25,359
Speaker 2: cottage industry right now, you know. And both Grigson and

1096
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 2: his colleague are kind of in lockstep. Neither of them

1097
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 2: talk to Barefoot, neither of them are asked to talk

1098
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 2: to Barefoot, and this does not stop them from both

1099
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 2: diagnosing him. Doctor Grigson calls him a criminal sociopath. That's

1100
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 2: his diagnosis, which is again not a diagnosis. He then says, basically,

1101
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 2: I like to rate sociopaths on a scale of one

1102
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:49,359
Speaker 2: to ten and then says, I put barefoot above ten.

1103
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:51,920
Speaker 2: So he can't even be consistent to the logic of

1104
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,840
Speaker 2: the made up psychiatry. He's proud. You can't say I

1105
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 2: rate this on what one to ten basis, and this

1106
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:00,120
Speaker 2: guy is higher than ten. That's not the work.

1107
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:04,759
Speaker 3: It's what he was talking about his fucking guitar amplifier.

1108
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 2: Even, no, it doesn't be consistent with your bullshie. If

1109
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 2: you're gonna fake make up your own system of criminal sociopathy,

1110
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 2: you can't then say. But also fuck the system I

1111
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 2: made up, you know. So I know this is going

1112
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 2: to be hard for our listeners in the year twenty

1113
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 2: twenty five to accept. But even though that's patently bullshit,

1114
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 2: the nineteen eighty three US Supreme Court kind of sucked ass,

1115
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 2: and they ultimately upheld the Texas to hear yeah wild,

1116
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 2: and they ultimately uphold the Texas State Court's denial of

1117
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 2: the delay of execution and wound up creating the precedent

1118
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 2: through this that it's totally fine for again, like this

1119
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 2: is where we kind of finally decide, yes, absolutely, a

1120
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 2: psychiatrist can just show up, never talk to a defendant.

1121
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 2: And say, yeah, that guy seems crazy, give me my money,

1122
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 2: you know. So there are you know again, this is

1123
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 2: like a de controversial thing. There's a brief filed by

1124
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 2: the APA and in which they use their most doctorly

1125
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:08,960
Speaker 2: language to say, like, what the fuck is wrong with

1126
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 2: you people? Quote. Psychiatrists should not be permitted to offer

1127
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 2: a prediction concerning the long term future dangerousness of a

1128
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 2: defendant and a capital case, at least where the psychiatrist

1129
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 2: purports testify as a medical expert possessing predictive expertise. The

1130
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 2: large body of research in this area indicates that, even

1131
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 2: under the best conditions, psychiatric predictions of long term future

1132
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:30,640
Speaker 2: dangerousness are wrong. In at least two out of every

1133
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 2: three cases. The forecast of future violent conduct is at

1134
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:37,200
Speaker 2: bottom a late determination made on the basis of essentially

1135
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 2: actuarial data to which psychiatrists and psychiatrists can bring no

1136
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 2: special interpretive skills. The use of psychiatric testimony on this

1137
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 2: issue causes serious prejudice that offended by dressing up the

1138
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 2: actuarial data with an expert opinion, the psychiatrist's testimony is

1139
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 2: likely to receive undue weight. It provides a false aura

1140
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 2: of certainty and impermissibly distorts the fact finding process in

1141
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 2: capital cases. The APA goes onto our argue that it's

1142
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 2: also really fucked up for doctor Grigson to pretend criminal

1143
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 2: sociopathy is a diagnosis, because it wasn't, and it shouldn't

1144
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 2: be telling jury shit like that, because it's nonsense. Diagnoses

1145
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 2: can't be made on the basis of hypothetical questions, period,

1146
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 2: and this is the only way to describe prosecutors are

1147
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 2: asking Gregson and his colleagues to do. Yet the Supreme

1148
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 2: Court rules six' three on the, case And barefoot is

1149
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 2: executed a year later at age thirty. Nine the court's

1150
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 2: ultimate reasoning is fucking. Stupid they grant THE apa, that, like,

1151
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 2: well you're right in your criticisms of this. Guy this

1152
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 2: guy's clearly like a kuk and a con, man, right

1153
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 2: and you're totally right he shouldn't be doing what he's.

1154
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 2: Doing but there's nothing constitutionally impermissible about his. Testimony and

1155
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:48,479
Speaker 2: it's fine because of our sacred adversarial trial, process which

1156
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 2: means that, obviously if this kouk is saying, bullshit another

1157
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 2: expert can be brought in to give countervailing. Opinions which

1158
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 2: will leave the jury up to be the, decider you,

1159
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 2: know of, truth even though this is a case of

1160
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 2: medical professional ethics and which they have no education of standing. Right,

1161
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 2: basically it's fine because theoretically another psychiatrist could come in

1162
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 2: and say he's, wrong your.

1163
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 3: Honor it's my professional medical opinion that the defendant is

1164
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 3: a stinky little piss baby and you should probably kill.

1165
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 3: Him ye should probably kill, Him and that's my medical.

1166
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 3: Opinion and then it's the responsibility of the defendants to

1167
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 3: bring in someone who's gonna say what that that guy's?

1168
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 3: Insane but that doesn't seem to have happened, Either.

1169
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:31,560
Speaker 2: AND i love, That like the jury is supposed to

1170
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 2: look at these two professionals with like a dozen years

1171
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 2: of schooling each and be, like which one of them

1172
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,760
Speaker 2: is right based on my experience being a guy who

1173
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 2: didn't get out Of jerry, Duty Like i'm not you

1174
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:44,479
Speaker 2: should Do jerry?

1175
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 3: Duty?

1176
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:45,920
Speaker 2: People you?

1177
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 3: Should you? Should it's.

1178
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 2: Good so there's so much wrong with this. Ruling what's

1179
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 2: one of the things that's wildly fucked up is that

1180
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 2: the dissent is written By Justice Harry, blackman who is

1181
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 2: very pro death. Penalty it normally like a pro death

1182
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:01,600
Speaker 2: penalty justice is, like oh my, god what the fuck

1183
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 2: is wrong with the rest of you, Quote the court

1184
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 2: holds that psychiatric testimony about a defendant's future dangerous is,

1185
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 2: admissible despite the fact that such testimony is wrong two

1186
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 2: times out of. Three the court reaches this result even

1187
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 2: in a capital, case because it is said the testimony

1188
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 2: is subject to cross examination and impeachment in the present

1189
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 2: state of psychiatric. Knowledge this is too much for. Me

1190
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 2: one may accept this in a routine lawsuit for money,

1191
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 2: damages but when a person's life is at, stake no

1192
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 2: matter how heinous his, offense a requirement of greater reliability should.

1193
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:33,400
Speaker 2: Prevail in a capital, case the speciest testimony of a,

1194
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 2: psychiatrist colored in the eyes of an impressionable jury by

1195
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 2: the inevitable untouchability of a medical specialist, words equates with death.

1196
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:46,400
Speaker 2: Itself pretty. Good it's a pretty good. Descent that's not

1197
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:46,760
Speaker 2: a bad.

1198
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 3: One and you, KNOW i appreciate that he's willing to

1199
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 3: acknowledge all kinds of clowning that goes on in your

1200
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 3: standard court of law of nonsense arguments being, yeah, deemed

1201
01:01:57,520 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 3: we can handle. That it's. Fine we'll give it a.

1202
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 3: Pass but when it comes, yeah when it comes to killing,

1203
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:04,080
Speaker 3: somebody that's. Insane, yeah it's fucking.

1204
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 2: Nuts oh, man it reminds. ME i watched with a

1205
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:13,040
Speaker 2: friend of mine who's in the public who is a

1206
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 2: public defender a while, back the movie And justice For

1207
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:19,640
Speaker 2: all with Al, pacino WHICH i have been told is

1208
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 2: the best movie about a public defender ever, made and

1209
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 2: people should definitely watch. It like there's there's some really

1210
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 2: good pachino in going on in that, one and he

1211
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 2: is like a Peak, pacino Peak, pachino Peak. Pacino look at.

1212
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:35,680
Speaker 2: Him he's a little bitty, guys a little baby in this.

1213
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:36,600
Speaker 2: Movie oh.

1214
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 3: CUTE i love a small Angry italian.

1215
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 2: Man, yeah just a tiny Furious italian. Man we don't

1216
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 2: have enough of those in our who's our Angriest italian

1217
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 2: movie star?

1218
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 3: Today oh, NO i think that era is over. Unfortunate,

1219
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:55,120
Speaker 3: yeah that's. TRAGIC i can't they all change their? Names you?

1220
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 3: Know these days we only have Angry italian, politicians and

1221
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 3: none of them are particular really. Good.

1222
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, see we Need hollywood needs More, dei which is

1223
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:10,440
Speaker 2: of course Dramatic italian. Inclusion we're working on, that or

1224
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 2: working on.

1225
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:15,880
Speaker 1: That we did not get the letters correct, There buddy's.

1226
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:19,080
Speaker 2: Fine it was close. Enough it was close.

1227
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:22,160
Speaker 1: Enough you have a lot of tiny men In hollywood

1228
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:24,840
Speaker 1: and none of them happened to be angry Or italian.

1229
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 2: Though, yeah it's. Tragic, yeah well, anyway, everybody uh figure that.

1230
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 2: Out uh find me an angry Little italian, Man steven't

1231
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 2: you got anything to? Plug?

1232
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 3: WELL i, MEAN i think you know if you haven't

1233
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:43,760
Speaker 3: listened to the Viral texas SERIES i did for a Cool,

1234
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:47,160
Speaker 3: zone it could happen. Here please go listen to. THAT

1235
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 3: i just wrote something angry FOR msnbc about the awful

1236
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 3: Catastrophic texas. Flood, Yeah, jesus and that has a lot

1237
01:03:56,720 --> 01:04:01,120
Speaker 3: of preventable deaths that were totally unnecessary because it's too

1238
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:05,440
Speaker 3: expensive to prevent people from dying in places where floods

1239
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 3: are common and historically known to kill. People. Yeah so,

1240
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 3: yeah check that stuff. Out AND i guess either there's

1241
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:15,680
Speaker 3: one QUESTION i neglected to ask OR i don't think

1242
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:18,800
Speaker 3: you got, Into. Robert was there anything in common that

1243
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:23,800
Speaker 3: a lot of these people that doctor death testified. Against

1244
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 3: did they have anything in? Common? Like was there a?

1245
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:27,480
Speaker 3: THREAD i, mean were They.

1246
01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 2: There are different races tended to be poor that now

1247
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:32,440
Speaker 2: they are not. All in, fact one of his really

1248
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:35,920
Speaker 2: like major cases that we'll talk about next episode is

1249
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 2: like a he it's a white guy that he gets

1250
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:43,680
Speaker 2: on death, row right as the result of like the actual,

1251
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:46,840
Speaker 2: murder lying about, it you, know so like. It it's

1252
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 2: not entirely but, like, yes his cases match with the

1253
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 2: general trend In texas death, row which is that black

1254
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:55,400
Speaker 2: And hispanic men are.

1255
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 3: Overrepresented, right there's a long history of like trumped up

1256
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:02,160
Speaker 3: cases involving poor black men In dallas that may or

1257
01:05:02,200 --> 01:05:04,080
Speaker 3: may not involve death row. Cases, yes he.

1258
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:07,040
Speaker 2: Is he is is a standard matter more than a

1259
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:10,720
Speaker 2: quarter Of texas death row cases he testifies on during

1260
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 2: the several decades that he is involved in. It and

1261
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 2: as a, general as a, rule the Evidence i've seen

1262
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:20,480
Speaker 2: suggests that it matched the broader demographic. Problems And i'm

1263
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 2: Not we're not going to go into a ton of

1264
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 2: detail on that just because like the issues with the death,

1265
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:28,080
Speaker 2: penalty you're broader in. That but, yes like his his

1266
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 2: his issues certainly do not escape the overall bias of the,

1267
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:35,480
Speaker 2: system like they are part of you, know they sort

1268
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:37,960
Speaker 2: of are in line with the overall biases of the.

1269
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:44,400
Speaker 2: System fair to, say yeah and yeah overwhelmingly, Though like

1270
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:47,320
Speaker 2: the number one thing that these folks have in common

1271
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:51,600
Speaker 2: is that they are very poor and have very little

1272
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:54,800
Speaker 2: access to any kind of legal, resources, right because a

1273
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:56,400
Speaker 2: big part of this is that a lot of these

1274
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:58,480
Speaker 2: folks are going to be, shown or at least heavily,

1275
01:05:58,520 --> 01:06:00,960
Speaker 2: suggested to have been innocent after their. Conviction that's what

1276
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:03,080
Speaker 2: we're talking about into part, two and a big part

1277
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 2: of why that. Happens it's obviously not separate from, race

1278
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 2: and neither is, poverty but it's because the whole legal

1279
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 2: system In texas is set up to make it very

1280
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 2: easy to kill poor, people even when it's, known and

1281
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 2: it's known by the police and the prosecutor that they've

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01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:21,959
Speaker 2: got the wrong person and they're just kind of doing

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01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 2: it for, numbers, Right, like, well fuck, it no one's

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01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:26,520
Speaker 2: going to stop us from killing this, guy. Right that's

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01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 2: a recurring trend.

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Speaker 3: Here. Crazy, well on that, note thanks for having me

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01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:37,479
Speaker 3: to talk about such lovely. Topics, Uplifting, yes?

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Speaker 2: Uplifting feeling?

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Speaker 3: Good, yeah, Yeah i'm feeling so much.

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01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:45,480
Speaker 2: Better everything's.

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01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 3: FINE i feel less awful. Now, Thanks Thanks, robert.

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Speaker 2: Thank, you all, right everybody good to. HELL i love.

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01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:54,479
Speaker 3: You we'll be back For part.

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Speaker 1: Two behind About ustards is a production of Cool Zone.

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01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 1: Media for more from Cool Zone, media visit our Website

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01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:08,919
Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on The iHeartRadio,

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Speaker 1: App Apple, podcasts or wherever you get your. Podcasts behind

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Speaker 1: The bastards is now available on, YouTube new episodes Every

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Speaker 1: wednesday And. Friday subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com

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Speaker 1: slash At behind The bastards