WEBVTT - Closing in on the Wagners 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:08.200 Hey, Billy's does something like that. Yeah, we're company as 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:12.440 like some sealteen six. When are they going to point 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:17.159 to George being part of this conspiracy? Hannah replies, I 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:20.200 won't sign papers. Ever, it won't happen. They will have 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:28.800 to kill me first. This is the Piked and Massacre 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:34.159 Returned to Pike County season four, episode twelve, Closing in 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:39.000 on the Wagners. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:43.040 Katy Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. It's the 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:46.199 middle of George Wagner the Fourth trial. It's important to 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:48.840 note that George Wagner the Fourth, along with his father 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:52.800 Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, deny any wrongdoing and 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:57.560 have pleaded not guilty to all charges. So far, there's 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:00.880 been hours of testimony by investigators and relatives that have 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:03.640 painted a very real portrait of what the crime scenes 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:07.600 look like. But while prosecutors have laid out the grizzly 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.360 details of the murderers, they have yet to connect George 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:14.440 Wagner the Fourth to the killings. We're in the state 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:16.119 side of the case is a state ready to call 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:22.160 another witness special prosecutor and jaw Kneppa call Special Agent 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:26.320 John Jenkins of the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigations more 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:30.640 commonly known as the BCI. Jenkins sports a trimmed goatee 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:33.959 and looks every bit the veteran investigator he is. In 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:38.440 twenty sixteen, just four months after the brutal murders, Jenkins 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:42.479 interviewed the Wagner family's father, Billy. You can find Billy 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:45.959 Wagner's raw audio of his conversation with special agents on 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:49.720 our Apple Plus True Crime subscription page. A link to 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:56.680 that page is included in this episode's description. Today's attention 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:00.280 turned to a police interview with the defendant's father, Billy Wagner. 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.040 He was best friends with one of the victims, Chris Roden. 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:06.200 I mean his interview, he provide some insights that could 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:09.320 not only help the prosecution, but could also be useful 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:13.240 for the defense. BCI agents had spent months trying to 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:17.400 speak to Billy Wagner. Jenkins testified that Wagner seemed to 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:20.360 be avoiding them. We want to talk to him because 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:24.720 of the fact of his relationship with and Hannah, but 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:28.920 also weird started to at this time get tips and 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.040 leaves that there might have been some issues with some 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:37.320 custody reference, and that task became difficult due to the 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:40.440 fact that when we stopped by the house, Billy wasn't 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:45.640 always there. In September of twenty sixteen, BCI agents finally 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:49.160 tracked down Billy Wagner outside a grocery store and was 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:54.600 this interview with Billy Wagner recording? Yes, it was audio recorded. 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:57.760 If this timing runner, I would like to play that 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.000 recording for the journey. I just want to talk with 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:05.320 you about the Rodent murders, okay, and so, um, you know, 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:10.280 we've been out talking with people, you know, all kinds 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:12.680 of you know, tips get called in our office and 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:16.200 all that, and so your name has come up and 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:18.280 you know, and tips and things like that. So we 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:20.520 just want to find whatever you want to. Just be 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:22.639 honest with us. I'll tell you whatever I can do 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.360 to help get out. As the audio recordings began, Jenkins, 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.040 wearing a blue blazer and white shirt, lowered his head 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:33.240 and sat listening to the conversation. Billy Wagner was first 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:38.240 asked about his relationship with Chris Roden Senior. Wagner insisted 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:42.480 he and victim Chris Rodin were very close. You know, 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:45.760 Chris was my best friend, all right, man him, you know, 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:48.520 we run around all the time. But I want to 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.560 talk about Chris. Don't call up. He didn't tell anybody enough. 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:53.840 He can't be too business to yourself. And I want 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:55.480 to tell you straight up, I don't care what he done. 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.280 He was my friend. He'd done everything for me, Okay, 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.840 you know, and Chris rode up, I mean scroubs for everything. 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:04.240 He had worked his ass off and he worked every day. 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:06.400 You know his shit. They're making him out like some 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:09.640 damn big gangsters, a bunch of shit, Okay, okay, And 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:11.960 now I wanted to talk with the other thing. You know, 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:18.159 he wasn't no thingkay. But Chris never hurt nobody. I'll 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:19.640 tell you whatever I can do to help you out. 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.640 And we're not concerned about anything other than the murders. 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:25.320 So you know, we've talked with different people. Different people 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:28.200 have different involvement. You know. You know you've you've read 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:31.480 the paper. Uh, you know you've seen the news. I'm 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:33.080 not worried about all that. I'll tell you whatever you 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:35.479 need to know, Okay, I'm just saying, you know, there 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:38.320 was gross down and I want to tasting the right 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:42.560 off the bat. You didn't know Chris, all right, most 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:44.080 of the shit they're talking about it with a bunch 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:48.719 of bullshit life. Okay, I mean Chris, he'd give you 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:50.719 the shirt off his back. Well we've heard that, you 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:54.200 know he he you know, he was absolutely you know, 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:57.800 we're what nobody else like him? Oh Chris, I said, 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:00.960 he is my best grand wel also said he and 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:04.320 Chris Rodin had spoken the night he was killed. Last 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.359 time my talk came and he seemed all right, was 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:10.760 the night before all happened, and I said, hey, man, 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:13.640 i'll talk. He's more. And then next morning, you know, 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:17.000 all hell broke Los BCI agents s Wagner, who he 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:21.039 thought committed the murderers. Billy Wagner floated the possibility that 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:23.960 Chris Roden Senior might have vowed money to drug dealers. 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:27.479 Ain't a bunch of hell billys do something like that? 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:33.400 And well, you know, sorry, never convinced me. You know, 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:38.239 hat's like some fieldeen six. Okay, but your bottom feeding 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:41.560 sounds pitches right. Well, yeah, you know your bottom feeders, 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:45.719 I mean, every damn one of them. I mean they're 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.080 on that freaking ship. And I mean it killed r 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:51.440 Dan Braham all for five dollars. And you know, I 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:53.919 told crab, you know, got to fuck you know, shouldn't 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.080 suck around fact shit. But you know, because it just 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:01.240 and it ain't too much. You know, who care? You 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:03.720 know what happened to the dumb affors doing it? But 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:07.760 you know it's a ship that they did. Investigators again 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:11.520 pressed Billy Wagner about his relationship with victim Chris Roden Senior, 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:14.560 specifically if they had gotten into a fight a few 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:19.440 weeks prior to the murders. We had heard someone had 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:22.040 called and said, and then listen, I'm not trying to 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:24.800 I don't care. I don't care what you are. You 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:27.440 play it on me, O day because you or Chris 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:29.760 actually got into a fight about a week or two 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:33.000 prior to the murders and said that you'd pulled a 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:38.680 gun on him. Yeah, okay, absolutely not. Didn't happen? Good nappen? Day? Well, no, 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:41.440 let's just saying that you've got into an argument, wasn't 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:43.080 now and then you sort of then you pulled a 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:47.160 gun on him, and you said I don't care about Chris. 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:51.640 Throughout the nearly two hour conversation Wagner tried repeatedly to 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:55.480 shift the investigator's attention away from himself and his family. 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.080 You're looking in the wrong damn direction. You new to 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.960 be going to have what. At one point, Billy Wagner 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:07.320 even mentioned he'd heard Hannah Rodin was seeing a sheriff 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.320 and said someone had seen a sheriff's car parked on 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:14.880 Union Hill Road. Somebody said that she was singing a 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.600 deput sheriff up here in Waverley. I don't know who 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:20.040 he is, and he every time I heard that there 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:21.880 was a sheriff sitting at the end of Union Hill 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:24.960 all night. So I don't know if that's I don't know, 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:28.760 but that's just what I heard. Later, when agents mentioned 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:32.760 the marijuana growing on Chris Roden's property, Billy Wagner denied 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:36.000 any involvement in the drug business. Now, other people have 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:40.280 told us that they thought that you and Chris were 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:44.880 business partners. No, now, if Chris you know now, I'm 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:46.960 gont bullshit. I Chris. I don't care what Chris asked 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.280 me to do. Yeah, if he asked me do something, 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:51.880 I'd do it for him, because he'd do anything for me, 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:55.960 you know. He you just you just don't you way 0:07:55.960 --> 0:08:01.840 you can understand that, I understand if you Christons, you know, 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:04.760 like I said, we're daylight and dark, all right, but 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:08.400 well you know pretty much you know, if he want 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:10.200 to go do something, we go. If I want to 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:11.720 go do something, he can go with me. You know 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:15.680 it didn't matter. So but so you never hold any 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.320 weed for no. No, I hold a lot of cars 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:20.520 for him, hauled a lot of cars, like would you 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:23.480 hold him round? Go down drear down there in code 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:25.240 arts and get him for him and bring him up. 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:29.720 Investigators return to rumors of illegal drugs and a possible 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:33.000 drug deal that Chris Roden Senior was potentially involved with, 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.840 and who Billy Wagner alleged might have had a reason 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:40.160 to kill Chris Roden Senior. It's important to note that 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:45.520 George Wagner's allegations against Skid Montgomery are not substantiated. Here's 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:49.160 Special Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa picking up her questioning of ah 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:54.520 and Jenkins. There's talk in during that conversation between you 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:58.880 and mister Wagner, and he keeps referring to a person 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.679 named m Yes, that's correct, and can you tell us 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:07.880 who Latham is sure so during that during that interview, 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:11.040 mister Wagner, as you've heard, but it would keep referring 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:15.440 to an individual name Lathe Latham and basically who he 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:19.480 was referring to as an individual named Skid Montgomery. Skid 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.920 Montgomery lives in around the Latham area, owns a lot 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:26.120 of property in the in the Pike County area, and 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.640 we'd learned through the investigation that there was always rumor 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:34.120 that Skid Montgomery was a big, large scale marijuana dealer 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:39.080 and that he would put hits out on people and 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:44.640 especial agent Jenkins. Obviously, Billy talked to you about an 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:49.640 alleged business deal where Chris was expected to get a 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:57.120 large a large chunk of marijuana and indicated that it 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:58.959 would represent a lot of money and that would put 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:02.720 people out of business. Correct, that's correct, Okay, and specifically 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:05.839 indicated that he felt that that would be upsetting to 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:13.280 Latham slash Skid mcgoming. That's correct. Yes, here's Stephanie and Jeff. 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:18.240 It's very compelling to hear the voice of accused father 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:22.520 Billy Wagner. Hearing this interview that has been spoken about 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:26.360 so often was fascinating. Some people say that he was 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:31.480 rambling in this interview and trying to lead investigators in 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:35.920 a different direction and throw some tidbits at them to 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:39.600 get them off his track. But frankly, in listening to it, 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:42.240 I thought he felt pretty common cooperative. He was just 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.920 being stopped outside of a grocery store and cut two. 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:49.880 He's in a two hour interview. Well, Steff, based on 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:52.160 what we've heard about the Wager's movements after the murders, 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:54.280 I think it stands to reason that they probably weren't 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:58.199 anticipating talking to law enforcement at some point and probably 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:00.720 had a bit of a script or a plan for 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:04.240 when that did happen. I mean, because Billy very quickly 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:08.720 was throwing out unsubstantiated rumors about nineteen year old victim 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:12.440 Hannah may Or, pointing away from himself towards the grow operation, 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.720 and even bringing up Skid Montgomery like he already had 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.480 a litany of things that he was going to kind 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:20.120 of try to throw at the police to get the 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:24.920 scent off of him and his family. Interesting that you 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.480 should say that, because yes, you're right. On the one hand, 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:31.440 he's saying that Chris Senior was his very best friend 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:34.800 and he would do anything for him, and that Chris 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:37.440 would do anything for him. And to your point, on 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:40.000 the other hand, he's essentially throwing him under the bus 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:43.959 by pointing to the grow operation and denying that there 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:48.040 was ever a big fight between them regarding custody and 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:52.280 kind of bringing him again back to Skid Montgomery. Even 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:56.520 just hearing the name Latham aka Skid of Montgomery, and 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.120 it legitimately makes the hairs in the back of my 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:02.960 next stand up because we've been given this name so 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:05.960 many times, both from listeners and people in and around 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:09.920 the area. And again, Skid Montgomery is a very prominent 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:16.240 landowner in Pike County and now here's Billy basically accusing him. 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:20.640 Is this just Billy getting him off his tracks, or 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:22.440 is it possible that there is some truth to that. 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.120 I have to assume that we're going to hear from 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:28.160 Skid Montgomery at some point, and that he'll be a witness. 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:32.480 I also thought it was interesting that Billy says there 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:35.440 was a sheriff at the bottom of the road that 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:38.240 whole night that he had heard rumors of. That is 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:41.079 he referring to Sheriff Reader And if so, I also 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:44.480 have to assume that Sheriff Reader at some point will 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:48.360 testify at this trial because his name comes up all 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:51.800 the time, and as we know, he's currently serving time 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:58.800 for unrelated charges for taking drug money illegally and using 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:03.560 it for gambling, again completely unrelated. Nobody has associated him 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:07.080 with these murders, but again these names keep coming up. 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:10.240 Well stuff. This is certainly an interesting preview of the 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:12.680 trial to come. As we know Billy Wagner has pled 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:15.640 not guilty and as a waiting trial, and so this 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:18.400 is maybe just a little bit of a sneak peek 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:22.600 at his upcoming legal proceedings. Also, even just him saying 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:26.840 that me and Chris were best friends and that we 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:30.160 were like daylight and dark. I thought that was such 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:33.400 a curious statement, which one does he see himself as. 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:40.240 Despite efforts to shift the focus away from himself and 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.840 his family, investigators walked away from their conversation with Billy 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:49.000 Wagner with more questions than answers. Here's legal analyst Mike Allen. 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:52.880 He didn't help himself listening to it. I really don't 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.559 know what he was trying to do. I mean, obviously 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:58.640 he was trying to shift the focus away from him 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:00.679 and his family. I don't I don't think he was 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:06.280 very successful with it. That happens all the time. These people, 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:10.280 some of them, they deceived themselves into thinking that, you know, 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:13.360 they're the smartest criminal in the world, and you know 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:16.400 they'll say, well if I if I say this to 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:20.240 the police, or if I say something else to the police, there, 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:26.000 that'll throw him off the trail doesn't happen. We're going 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:28.200 to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:38.960 The investigative trail was beginning to point directly to the 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:43.920 Wagner family, though not necessarily to defendant George Wagner. Here's 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:48.840 longtime investigative reporter James Pilcher in Cincinnati now with Local twelve. 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:51.960 When are they going to point to George being part 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:55.640 of this conspiracy? Because none of the physical evidence that 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:59.520 they presented early on, I had any of the Wagoners too, 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:03.600 any of these crime scenes. Outside the courtroom, questions were 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:07.120 being asked about the prosecution's ability to link George Wagner 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:10.080 to the murders. That to me is the major issue here, right. 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:12.920 I've been going for days in this trial, lots of evidence, 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.560 lots of witnesses, but honestly, we have yet to hear 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:21.160 any connection of George the fourth to these crimes. Following 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:25.640 Special Agent John jenkins testimony, the defense requested for the 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.640 third time in the trial there should be a mistrial. 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:32.520 The defense argued the tapes of Special Agent Jenkins's interview 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:35.400 with Billy Wagner should never have been played before the jury. 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:38.520 The defense argued the tapes had nothing to do with 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:41.960 George Wagner and that the interview did not establish any 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:46.560 proof of a conspiracy to commit aggravated murder. Special Prosecutor 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.800 Angiekuneppas said that wasn't why the state played the interview 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:53.720 with Billy Wagner at his son George's trial. Instead, she 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:57.000 wanted the jury to see how BCI investigators ended up 0:15:57.040 --> 0:16:00.920 focusing on the Wagner family. Of course, he's a rude 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.880 emotions previously made on the record for miss trial and 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:09.080 to exclude the tape or to strike the tape is 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:11.960 defense council and the state ready to bring the jury up. 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:15.720 Judge During ruled against the motion for a mistrial, and 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:20.720 the prosecution called for the second time. BCI analyst Julia Evislage, 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:23.600 the agent has long brown hair and is wearing a 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:27.600 maroon red jacket. Evislage is sworn in and questioned by 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:32.359 Special Prosecutor Angie Kneppa. Good afternoon. How are you? Good afternoon? 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:34.400 If you want to go ahead and state your name 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:38.000 again just for the record, Julia Evislage. Okay, And you 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:42.320 previously testified in this case. Correct, that's correct, okay. And 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:47.080 we've already discussed with you your current role at the 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:52.520 Bureaucram of Investigations and your work in this case, specifically 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:57.280 in analyzing records and other things that came that were 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:03.520 obtained percern to both subpoenas and search warts. Correct, yes, okay. 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:07.360 And can you tell us when you go through records 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:10.600 and such, is that information that you then share with 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:15.280 the investigative team, Yes, okay? And in your experience, has 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:19.479 that then inform their investigation in people that they are 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.800 willing in or willing out? Yes? Okay. And can you 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:27.320 tell us, Miss Everslage in this case, did you guys 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:32.760 obtain Facebook records of the victims? Yes, one of our 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:37.119 cyber crimes agents obtained a search warrant for all of 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:40.920 the Facebook accounts of the victims and we review those 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:45.640 once the responses came in from Facebook. On the screen above, 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:49.480 Evislage prosecutors pull up a spreadsheet of messages taken from 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:53.119 Hannah Roden's Facebook account. Each entry is labeled with the 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:57.920 time and date of the exchange. During that review of 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:04.560 those Facebook records, did you find information in the Facebook 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:09.879 account belonging to Hannah May Roden? Yes? And can you 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:13.560 tell us why were they noteworthy to you? When we 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.440 first started looking at Hannah's Facebook, we found some statements 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:18.159 in there and some of her messages that seemed to 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:20.320 be in direct conflict with things that we had heard 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.600 and interviews, particularly with Jake Wagner's interview, and we noted 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:30.800 just different different statements about abuse in the relationship, issues 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:35.080 with the Wagner's being controlling, things like that, and then 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:38.880 just her kind of sense of discomfort with the situation 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:41.960 with the custody of Okay and fears that they were 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:46.119 trying to take from her. Here again, Stephanie and Jeff. 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:51.800 Last episode, we heard, among others, Tabitha Clayton, George Wagner's 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:57.320 ex wife's testimony and her correspondence between Hanah May Rodin 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.399 and herself before she was murdered. Well, yeah, what's interesting 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:04.480 about this is the messages between Hannah May and Tabitha, 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:09.080 Georgia's ex wife talk about the fears of losing custody 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:12.360 and the Wagner family making the young women signed documents 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:14.360 that they don't want to be signed, kind of basically 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:19.159 being coerced into signing. Attempted guardianship fraud was uncovered in 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:21.800 the Pine County murder trial. Take a closer look at 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:23.800 your screen here. I want to show you something that's 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:26.280 on that document. At the bottom of it, you can 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:28.800 see a u RL to a website and there's a 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:32.040 date on the paper. It shows someone ripped this document 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:35.600 off a Texas government website in April of twenty sixteen, 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:39.600 the same month someone murdered Hannah May and seven of 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:42.880 her family members. Investigators say they've found that in the 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:48.639 Wagner's belongings. While the Wagner's told investigators there are no 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:52.560 issues over custody of Jake and Hannah's daughter, analyst Julia 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:56.359 Evislage pointed to additional Facebook messages that showed Hannah was 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:59.280 scared of the Wagner's attempts to in custody of her daughter. 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:03.840 One Facebook message stood out. It's the often spoken about 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:08.000 conversation from December of twenty fifteen. That was between Hannahme 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.200 Roden and George Wagner, the fourth's ex mother in law. 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:14.960 It's where Hannahme swears she will never sign papers to 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:17.920 give up custody of her daughter. As for those Facebook 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:22.199 messages to Hannah Wagner, one of those exchanges between Tabitha 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:25.120 and Hannah Rodin actually took place on the very day 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:29.040 that Hannah Roden was killed. Billy Wagner's interview and the 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:32.639 Facebook messages showing the brewing custody battle between Hannah and 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:36.520 Jake convinced investigators in late twenty sixteen they needed to 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:39.679 shift their focus to the Wagner family. You need to 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.879 investigate that. That's important. That's a lead, that's something that 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:46.679 needs to be ran down, specially Agent Ryan Scheiterer of 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:50.520 the BCI led the two year investigation into the brutal killings. 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:54.480 Scheiderer testified that he visited the Wagner's home on Peterson 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:57.880 Road in May of twenty seventeen, just before the Wagners 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:01.640 are set to move to Alaska. Is Angie Kneppa speaking 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:06.120 with Agent Scheiderer, who is on the stand. When you arrived, 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:08.800 you said, Jake and Angela and George were outside packing 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:11.400 along as in a trailer. Did all three of those 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:16.800 individuals remain outside, No, they did not. George excused himself 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:21.840 and went inside, and Jake and Angela remained outside. Yes, okay. 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:28.320 And during that time, did you observe anything in the 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:31.840 driveway that was of interest to you? Yes? Why speaking 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:35.879 with Angela and Jake, they were willing to speak with us, 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:39.280 They didn't ask us to leave. I just casually observed 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:44.920 there was numerous fired cartridge caseines lying about the driveway. 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:49.240 All over the place. There was hundreds of thousands of 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:54.359 cartridges laying around cases. And can you tell us a 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:57.680 special agent scheider did you? Were you able to pick 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:02.320 those items up and examine them close? No? Okay? And 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:05.600 were you able to tell from your vantage point not 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:08.439 bending over and picking them up or examined them closely? 0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:11.760 Did any of them appear to be of interest? Yes? 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:15.000 So the crime scenes, we were aware that there was 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:18.800 a forty caliber used. A forty caliber cartridge casing was 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:20.400 found at one of the crime scenes. You guys heard 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:23.280 about that. We also knew that there was potentially a 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:27.280 thirty caliber rifle that was used and twenty two long rifle. 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:31.760 What I observed that day, I saw cartridge casings that 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:35.080 appeared to be from a rifle. They weren't like a 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:38.400 twenty two caliber rifles, so they weren't twenty two room fires, 0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:41.400 but they definitely weren't like two two threes or five 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:44.440 five sixes. I just couldn't tell what caliber they were. 0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:48.119 And then I also saw cartridge cases that were or 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:52.479 casings that were consistent with pistol calibers. Specifically to me, 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:55.439 it looked like they were nine millimeters or forty caliber. 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:57.879 I couldn't tell from my vantage point. Obviously I'm standing 0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:00.919 up and I did not examine them. And can you 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:05.240 tell us? Was there also a conversation with Jake regarding 0:23:05.960 --> 0:23:09.520 various punishments for this kind of a crime. Yes. On 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:11.600 one of the things that I like to do. When 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:14.760 I'm talking to somebody that I suspect is involved in 0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:18.399 a crime i'm investigating, there's oftentimes I will ask that person, 0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:22.080 what do you think the appropriate punishment is for somebody 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:26.720 that's accused of this crime? To elicit their response, so 0:23:26.760 --> 0:23:29.720 I did ask him that, okay, and what was his response? 0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:32.160 It depended on whether or not they were a triggered person. 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:37.080 Following the visit. Investigators got a warrant to search the 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:41.640 Wagner property and their cell phones. Among the many communications 0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:45.320 they found were text messages between George Wagner and his father, Billy. 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:49.960 One message was sent while BCI investigators were at the 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:53.359 Wagner's home. Can you tell us if you saw anything 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:58.280 of interest on Billy's phone? There was interesting text messages 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:01.880 from George. Message number four is an inbox, which means 0:24:01.880 --> 0:24:05.720 it's a message to Billy and it is from George, 0:24:05.840 --> 0:24:09.600 his son, and it says, don't come down till I 0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:18.360 text you got company. Here's Stephanie. None of this ties 0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:22.040 George Wagner to the crimes. I also thought it was 0:24:22.080 --> 0:24:27.560 interesting that when police arrived to their home and George 0:24:27.600 --> 0:24:30.520 went inside, and they later took Billy's phone and he 0:24:30.600 --> 0:24:35.359 had texted to George to stay inside. Was he protecting 0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:39.560 him from police? Was Jake protecting his brother? When he 0:24:39.680 --> 0:24:42.919 said what should happen to the people who committed this crime? 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:46.440 And he said depends on who the trigger puller was? 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:52.280 But again a strange answer. Retrospectively, since he's now taken 0:24:52.280 --> 0:24:55.000 a polea agreement saying that he was in fact a 0:24:55.000 --> 0:24:58.800 trigger puller is that a way of protecting George, because 0:24:58.800 --> 0:25:02.480