1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to a brand new miniseries Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flohm. 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: In the time of COVID, You know, COVID nineteen has 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: totally derailed our normal lives and spun us into a 4 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: new strange world of isolation, restricted movement, anxiety, despair, and 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: even the threat of death. And it occurred to me 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: that I know a lot of people that have an 7 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: intimate knowledge of all these things and much much worse, 8 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: and they know how to cope with them. So I've 9 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: asked a few of my friends to share their very 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: unique experiences to help guide us all through these rough 11 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: waters that they know all too well. My hope is 12 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 1: that all of us can gain some perspective, knowledge and 13 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: value from their triumphs over tragedy. Today, we'll talk to 14 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: a man who did eighteen years on death row for 15 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: a crime he didn't commit, during which he spent over 16 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: twenty three hours a day locked in a tiny six 17 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: by nine foot cell, all while waiting for the state 18 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: of arc saw to set his execution day to take 19 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: his life. He'll tell us how he used exercise, art, structure, 20 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: mental focus, and free will to not allow isolation or 21 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: fear to break him. Plus an epiphany that came from 22 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: an encounter he had with a man who had actually 23 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 1: beaten someone to death with a can of corn, an 24 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: encounter that continues to guide him even through our current 25 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: shared reality in this time of COVID. We've interviewed him 26 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: before and touched on his story again through one of 27 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: his co defendants, Jason Baldwin. Their story is so totally 28 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: insane that we even spent time with documentary and Joe Burlinger, 29 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: who first covered their story as it was originally unfolding 30 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,639 Speaker 1: before he and his friends became known as the West 31 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: Memphis three. I encourage you to check out season two, 32 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: episode eight, Season seven, episode five, and season eight episode 33 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: twelve to hear how the state literally pointed to I 34 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: kid you not heavy metal music and Stephen King novels 35 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: as quote unquote evidence along with a false confession to 36 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: convict them for the murder of three young boys in 37 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: the woods. A deeply religious community just knew it had 38 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,399 Speaker 1: to be Satanism or something like that, and it had 39 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: to be that boy who wore Metallica T shirts. Today 40 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: we'll talk to one of my personal heroes. It's become 41 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,119 Speaker 1: a dear friend, Damien Eccles, about coping in the time 42 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: of COVID. Hey, Damien, welcome back. 43 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. It actually feels 44 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 2: really nice just doing this again. 45 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: Well, it's really good of you to do it, and 46 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: I know a lot of people will take comfort from 47 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: learning what you have to say as they endure this 48 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: very bizarre and troublesome time that we're all living through together. So, 49 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: first of all, Damien, how are you and Laurie doing? 50 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 3: Kind of really well? 51 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: Actually, as strange as it sounds, you know, for everything 52 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 2: that's going on in the world, especially here in New 53 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 2: York City, but I think this kind of life was 54 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 2: something that I got used to, you know, when I 55 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 2: was in prison. I got used to having to focus inwardly, 56 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 2: so I wasn't as dependent upon outside stimulus as most 57 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 2: people who have never been put into that situation are. 58 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 2: So I find myself almost returning to the things that 59 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: helped me cope with prison life out here and realizing 60 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: that those things are actually really good for me. 61 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I've heard you talk about this stuff before, 62 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: but for this special episode, can you just touch on 63 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: how you adapted and what were some of the things 64 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: that allowed you to maintain your sanity in the most 65 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: insane situation imaginable. 66 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 2: Honestly, I think the number one thing that helped me 67 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 2: stay sane is figuring out that I could not live 68 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: for the future. And I think that's really important right 69 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 2: now too, you know, not to constantly torture ourselves thinking 70 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 2: about when is quarantine going to be over? When is 71 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 2: normal life going to return again? Because I honestly think 72 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: the world is probably going to change after this. I 73 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 2: don't think we'll ever go back to the same world 74 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 2: that existed before this quarantine came about. Also, I should 75 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 2: probably say for me in prison, you know, really what 76 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 2: it came down to for me was having to create 77 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,799 Speaker 2: a life for myself in that environment. So I didn't 78 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: drive myself insane constantly wondering when is this going to 79 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 2: be over? Am I ever going to get out? Are 80 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 2: these people going to eventually kill me? How is this 81 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 2: situation going to end? My saving grace in there was 82 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,720 Speaker 2: that I was able to create a life, and I 83 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 2: think a huge part of that comes from giving yourself 84 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 2: something to focus on other than you troubles. If you 85 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 2: constantly take in media that's telling you things that's making 86 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 2: you scared, and that's true whether it's talking about the 87 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 2: disease that's going on right now, the pandemic that's going on, 88 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 2: or whether it's you know, your possible upcoming execution date. 89 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 2: You can't sit around dwelling on that stuff or you 90 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 2: are going to stew in fear and misery. You have 91 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 2: to give yourself other things to look at and focus on. 92 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 2: You have to create a world for yourself and a 93 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: life for yourself, and for me in prison, you know, 94 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 2: part of it was also structuring my days, and that's 95 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,359 Speaker 2: one of the things I've tried to share with people 96 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 2: out here is, you know, we've all heard that it's 97 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 2: helpful to stay on a schedule, but a lot of 98 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 2: people that's an abstract concept or an abstract theory. We're like, okay, 99 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 2: stay on a schedule, but what sort of schedule? What 100 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 2: does a schedule mean? It helps if you give people, 101 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 2: like really concrete things that they can do for me. 102 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: Those things in prison and out here were things that 103 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 2: don't sound amazing but have tremendous impacts on your psyche, 104 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 2: on the way you view the world, for example, cleaning. 105 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 2: You know, somebody, whenever I first got to prison told 106 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 2: me the very first person I ever talked to. He said, 107 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 2: you can either sit in the cell and stagnate and 108 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 2: go insane like most of the people here, or you 109 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 2: can choose to turn your cell into a monastery, keep working, 110 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 2: keep developing. That's what I chose to do, just because, 111 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 2: you know, when I looked at the other lives around 112 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 2: me in that environment, to be quite honest, it kind 113 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 2: of horrified me to see, you know, people who were 114 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 2: the same after they had been in prison for fifteen 115 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 2: or twenty years, that they were whenever they walked in 116 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 2: the door. And I thought, I do not want to 117 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: fall into that trap. So I set myself a schedule 118 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 2: to create time. You know, there's no time in prison. 119 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 2: You have no appointments to keep or places to go 120 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 2: or anything like that. So I tried, to the best 121 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: of my ability to live my life exactly the way 122 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 2: I would if I were in a monastery of my 123 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 2: own free will. Some of those things included cleaning, you know, 124 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: like getting down on your hands and knees and scrubbing 125 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: the floor, scrubbing. 126 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 3: The walls out here. 127 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 2: That's really helpful because not only does it, you know, 128 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 2: maintain a schedule, give you something to do, something productive 129 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: and constructive. To focus on. But it's also helpful for 130 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 2: battling the pandemic, the virus that's going on right now, 131 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 2: for keeping yourself and your family clean. Another thing in 132 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: there is exercise. You know, for me, I was in 133 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 2: a tiny cell. I had just enough space to do 134 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 2: push up, sit ups, jumping jacks. Once I'm out here. Now, 135 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: what I've been doing for exercise is I put on 136 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 2: a backpack full of weights. And I live in a 137 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 2: three story building, so I run up and down the 138 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: stairs quite a few times a day with a backpack 139 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 2: full of weights on. You know, you don't have to 140 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: go out and go to the gym, but if you 141 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 2: keep your body in shape or you know, in reasonable 142 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 2: working condition, that is going to go a long way 143 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 2: towards mental health as well. If you start feeling bad physically, 144 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 2: you're going to start feeling bad mentally and emotionally too eventually. 145 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 2: So just things like cleaning, things like exercise. 146 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 3: Reading. 147 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 2: You know, a lot of people will say I hate 148 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 2: to read. I always say there is no such thing 149 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: as a person who hates to read. There are only 150 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 2: people who have not found books that they love, yet 151 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 2: they were forced. 152 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 3: To read things that maybe they. 153 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: Didn't like even if you think that you don't like 154 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 2: to read, start looking for books about subjects that may 155 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 2: interest you and start delving into those. There's a million 156 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 2: little things you can do to keep your mind occupied 157 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: that are productive and constructive, and that'll prevent you from 158 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 2: degenerating into this constant state of fear. 159 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you brought up exercise among all the 160 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: other things. And remember, there are a lot of assets 161 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: that we can all find online. Yes, since my friend 162 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: Adam Masate has a gym class that he does online 163 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: Adam Rossante Rosa and te He has a YouTube channel 164 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: and he does the thing for kids as well as adults, 165 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: but he has a special thing for kids to keep 166 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: them motivated and help prevent them from going stir crazy 167 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,199 Speaker 1: in the house. So you can find these things and 168 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: they're free. There are exercise routines you can do with 169 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: your own body weight that you don't need to go 170 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: to a gym. So, you know, I have so many 171 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: other questions for you, Damien. You know, it's really interesting 172 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: to me the dichotomy between what you endured and what 173 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: others are enduring now. And you talk about how you 174 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: had to sort of stay focused on the present you know, 175 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: you had nothing to look forward to after all, whatsoever, 176 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: except more of the same misery and then your own death. 177 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: So for people out here, it's a very different scenario 178 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: because they're looking forward to going back to their routine, 179 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: whatever that might be, their job, their school, their daily life. 180 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: I mean, can you give advice to us so all 181 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: of us out here, or does the same advice apply? 182 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 2: I honestly think it's probably the same advice. You know, 183 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 2: I'm looking back at it, I understand why most people 184 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 2: would think that that's how my life was in there, 185 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 2: But honestly, there were entire weeks would pass when I 186 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 2: wasn't even thinking about the fact that I was in prison. 187 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,839 Speaker 2: It didn't even register to me anymore because I was 188 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 2: so involved in what I was doing, and either what 189 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 2: I was creating through various artworks or through my own 190 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 2: spiritual and meditation practices. I was experiencing tremendous amounts of 191 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 2: growth that excited me, made me happy, gave me something to. 192 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 3: Look forward to. 193 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 2: I was always, you know, excited about, well, what's going 194 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 2: to come next. The outside world probably wouldn't see any 195 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 2: of those things because they were all internal things. It 196 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: reminds me of One of the quotes that I always 197 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 2: bring up is when Timothy Leary was in prison at 198 00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 2: one point. Timothy Leary was a guy who did all 199 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 2: of the LSD experiments, and at one point they put 200 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 2: him in a federal prison and Ramdas went to visit him, 201 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 2: and Ramdas tells him, we came up with a plan 202 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 2: a way that we're going to break you out of here. 203 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 2: And Timothy Leary says, no, you can't do that. I've 204 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 2: got too much work to do. That's how I started 205 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 2: to feel, probably, I would say, within the last couple 206 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 2: of years that I was in prison. You know, I 207 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 2: wasn't thinking about an execution date or what the state 208 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: was doing, or just kind of faded away for me. 209 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: I think whenever you find what you're supposed to be 210 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 2: doing in life, it kind of consumes you. It becomes 211 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 2: your life's work. Your life's work becomes your life. I 212 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 2: discovered what my life's work was really early. Fortunately for me, 213 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 2: the more I poured myself into that, the less I 214 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: cared about what was going on around me externally. 215 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: And you were deprived of all the creature comforts. And 216 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people people are experiencing different 217 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: degrees of that too. You know, so many people are 218 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 1: going through food shortages, they also may be experiencing, you know, 219 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: even lack of basic necessities like toilet paper. You hear 220 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: about outages everywhere, and you know, I sense it for 221 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: a lot of people, there's less joy in their day 222 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: to day life. I feel in conversations I have, there's 223 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: less joking going on. There's less levity in general. There's 224 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: this feeling of just heaviness, you know, in New York 225 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: where we are, and I've lost two friends to this 226 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: virus already, and everyone seems like they know somebody who's gone. 227 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: People are hearing sirens in the middle of the night, 228 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: ambulance is racing people to the hospital, and it feels 229 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: like there's a collective heaviness. And Damian, I've heard you 230 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: tell one particular story about a crazy experience you had 231 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: on death Row that allowed you to see the levity 232 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: through the almost absolute darkness, you know, the one with 233 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: the guy who had murdered somebody with a can of corn. 234 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 1: He actually turned I remember you saying he turned a 235 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: vegetable into a deadly weapon. Can you tell that story? 236 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 3: Uh, there was a. 237 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 2: Guy that was in the cell next to me at 238 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 2: one point for a couple of years, and this guy 239 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 2: was pretty pretty severely schizophrenic. You know, he would come 240 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 2: in and out of reality a lot. There were times 241 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 2: when you could talk to him and he would be 242 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 2: completely coherent. Other times you would talk to him and 243 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: nothing that came out of his mouth would be connected 244 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 2: to reality in any way whatsoever. But there was a time, 245 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: you know, a lot of times in the prison you 246 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,719 Speaker 2: would have the sewage would back up, and whenever that 247 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 2: would happen, you'd end up standing in like ankle deep sewage, 248 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 2: sometimes for a couple of days at a time while 249 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 2: they had to try to fix the system and clean 250 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 2: everything up that was going on. One time, you know, 251 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 2: the sewage had backed up. Everybody's miserable. And whenever that happens, 252 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 2: you know, to kind of understand the full impact of 253 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 2: what's going on, You're standing in ankle deep raw sewage 254 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 2: while you try to eat. You are holding your tray 255 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 2: in your hand, standing with your feet in shit while 256 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 2: you try to eat. I can't even begin to articulate 257 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 2: like the levels of misery that you can experience in 258 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: an environment like that. But this guy in the cell 259 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 2: next to me, the schizophrenic guy he had to actually 260 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 2: beat someone to death with a can of corn when 261 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 2: he was on the street. We're standing there in this 262 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 2: ankle deep sewage, and he starts singing that Lenyard skinnerd song? 263 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 3: Can you smell that smell? And whenever he did, I just, 264 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 3: you know, just the. 265 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 2: Absurdity and the outrageousness of the situation that I was 266 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 2: in kind of hit me really hard all at once, 267 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 2: and I couldn't stop laughing. And I asked the guy, 268 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 2: I said, you know, I understand, Okay, we're in this 269 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 2: hellish environment. These people are trying to kill us. But 270 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 2: at the same time, don't you still have moments of fun? 271 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 2: Aren't there still times when you're enjoying your life? And 272 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 2: he looks at me and says, hell, no, what the 273 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 2: fuck is wrong with you that you would even ask 274 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 2: me something like that. But for me, I kind of 275 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 2: I never really lost that. Thankfully, there were still I 276 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 2: was still always able to find things that I enjoyed 277 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 2: in there. But I mean, I know exactly what you're 278 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 2: talking about out here, because you can, you know, in 279 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 2: New York. I have never felt New York like this before. 280 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 2: The only way that I can even come close to 281 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 2: describing what it's like. You know, when we hear about 282 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 2: quarantine or lockdown or what's the other word they're calling 283 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 2: it self isolation. You know, a lot of times in 284 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 2: other states, people live in houses, they have yards, they 285 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 2: have cars that they can drive somewhere and go on 286 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 2: a hike. Most people in New York have none of that. 287 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 2: You know, most people in New York don't even have 288 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 2: a car unless they're incredibly wealthy. So it's not like 289 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 2: they can escape all of this. And the only way 290 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 2: I can describe the environment here right now is it 291 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: feels the way the city does when you're in the 292 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 2: middle of a bullet lizard in the dead of winter 293 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 2: and everything comes to a halt, everything comes to a standstill. 294 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 3: But this is even. 295 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 2: More profound than that. It's like we are in the 296 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 2: center of a hurricane that we can't even see, can't 297 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 2: even feel, but you can something in you still registers 298 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 2: the fact that something is going on around you. New York, 299 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 2: I think is an incredibly special place just because it's 300 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 2: not just a place that people here live. It's like 301 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 2: a character in our lives. 302 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: You know. 303 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: We deal with the city the way we would deal 304 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 2: with a person. That's how present it is in our lives. 305 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 2: It's almost like a force of nature, or like a 306 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 2: goddess made of concrete and collisions of energy and steal. 307 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 2: That's happening all the time, and everybody here has a 308 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 2: kind of symbiotic relationship with the city. Whenever the city 309 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 2: grinds down, whenever it's hurting, whenever the city's heart breaks, 310 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 2: it's like everybody else that lives here our heart breaks. 311 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 3: At the same time. 312 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 2: Whatever the city is experiencing, it's almost like every individual 313 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 2: within the city is experiencing on a smaller, microcosmic level. 314 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 2: So whenever the city shuts down, it's like our lives 315 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 2: shut down. I do still believe with all my heart 316 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 2: that somehow, some way, something good will come out of 317 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 2: all of this. 318 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 3: I don't know what it is. 319 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 2: I don't know when it will be or how it'll 320 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 2: take shape, but I really do believe that as hard 321 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 2: as this has been, something amazing will still come out 322 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 2: of it in some way. 323 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you, Damien. You mentioned that you 324 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: feel like we're never going to return to the same 325 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: idea normal and paraphrasing what you said, yea more eloquently 326 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: than that. But what will be the differences in your view? 327 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 3: I honestly I can't see it. 328 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 2: You know too, We're too far away from the world 329 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 2: that we're all going to re enter again right now. 330 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 2: There's still a lot of stuff, a lot of time 331 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 2: that has to pass. 332 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 3: But you know, a lot of. 333 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 2: Times when we think of things like destruction, we tend 334 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 2: to equate it with evil in some way. I think 335 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 2: that is an entirely human concept. I don't think the 336 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 2: universe views things in black and white, good and evil. 337 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 2: It views things as all things are sort of necessary 338 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 2: in order to continue the act of creation, including destruction. 339 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 2: There's an old man that lives next door to me. 340 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 2: He's an old blind man, and he sits out on 341 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 2: his stairs every day and listens to audiobooks so he 342 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 2: can feel the sun on his face. 343 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 3: And one day he said, I can't even know. 344 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 2: This was a couple of years ago, so I can't 345 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 2: even remember what started the conversation, but he was talking 346 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 2: about the word God, and he said it stands for generate, 347 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 2: order and destroy, because those are the three things that 348 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 2: the universe does. Those are the three stages we go 349 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: through the universe. Generates forms, and then it orders them, 350 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 2: puts them in specific orders. But as soon as those 351 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 2: orders start to stagnate, as soon as growth is no 352 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 2: longer possible, then it's absolutely necessary for it to introduce 353 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 2: destruction into that environment and tear it down so that 354 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 2: a new round of generation and creation can start. And 355 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 2: I honestly think that's kind of where we're at in 356 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 2: the world right now. 357 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 3: I think we are in this. 358 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 2: In alchemy, they call it the calcination phase, where everything 359 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 2: kind of gets destroyed, reduced, turned to ash, and that 360 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 2: has to happen sometimes before we can start to rebuild. 361 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 2: You know, if you're going to build a building, you 362 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: have to tear the old building on that site down 363 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:58,239 Speaker 2: before you can build a new one. 364 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 3: I think in a lot of ways. 365 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 2: Our lives will change, even if it's just people being 366 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 2: more prepared for something like this to come in the future. 367 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 2: But I really do think this is going to have 368 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 2: an impact on our psychees, on our collective psyche, on 369 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 2: our collective consciousness, maybe even to the point where we 370 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 2: come out of this and we're more thankful and more 371 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 2: grateful for the things that we do have because we've 372 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 2: seen what it's like whenever they disappear. So maybe this 373 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 2: just turns us into a more appreciative, grateful, unified society 374 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 2: or culture. Like I said, I don't know what shape 375 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 2: it will take, but I do have faith that in 376 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 2: some way something good will come of it. 377 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: That's a great sort of affirmation. It's a very interesting 378 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: time in so many ways. I think even relationships are 379 00:20:54,840 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: being developed and probably torn down, probably tested right at 380 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: a greater rate than normal. I think that there is 381 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: a real reset happening across the board. I did want 382 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:16,479 Speaker 1: to ask you a Damien space, right, So, by and large, well, 383 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: there's two different aspects of this, and I'm interested in 384 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,239 Speaker 1: your take on both. One is, you have people who 385 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: are listening who are now confined to a relatively small space, 386 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: a small apartment with quite a few people possibly in it, 387 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 1: maybe extended family. And you have other people who are alone, 388 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: like really alone for the first time, where they can't 389 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: have visitors and they can't have even family members come. 390 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: Some of them are elderly. What advice can you give them? 391 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: As far as that you know, I'm sure it must 392 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: feel like the walls are closing in on people. 393 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 2: I would say the best advice that I could give 394 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 2: about that would be, to the best of your ability, 395 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 2: surround yourself with things that make you look up, things 396 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: that inspire you, things that make you feel good. And 397 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 2: it could be anything from hanging photos on your wall 398 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 2: that bring back good memories to like you were saying, wallago. 399 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 2: You've got a lot of people out there right now 400 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 2: offering all sorts of amazing stuff on the Internet, and 401 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 2: a lot of it is absolutely free. You know. Just 402 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 2: for example, here in New York, the ninety second Street 403 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 2: YMCA is doing this thing where for five dollars you 404 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 2: can go onto their website and they are broadcasting symphony 405 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 2: orchestras here throughout the city playing concerts, and you can 406 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 2: hear these amazing symphonies and concerts by you know, Divorjak 407 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 2: or Beethoven or whoever it is for five dollars. You know, 408 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 2: when you're looking at something like that, most of the time, 409 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,719 Speaker 2: your troubles and your hardships and your problems are going 410 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 2: to be the last thing on your mind when you 411 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 2: are looking into the face of something that you find beautiful. 412 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 2: If you keep your eyes focused on things that are 413 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 2: beautiful and meaningful and rich and do something for you personally, 414 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 2: you're feeding yourself. That's that's literally spiritual sustenance. You are 415 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 2: feeding your soul. And the more you feed your soul, 416 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 2: no matter what the environment is like, the better you're 417 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 2: going to come out of it. So I would say, 418 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 2: if you are at home, like you were saying earlier, 419 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 2: use the internet. You know, there are people out there 420 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 2: right now giving you know, free yoga classes, courses on 421 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:45,479 Speaker 2: everything from astrology to tarot to how to cut your 422 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 2: own hair, you know, which is a thing that a 423 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 2: lot of people are dealing with. Just because there are 424 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 2: no barber shops, no beauty salons, you can learn all 425 00:23:53,480 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 2: sorts of amazing things, or immerse yourself in beautiful, rich environments, 426 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 2: even if you're trapped in one room. 427 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: Is there a particular book or even a particular piece 428 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: of music or any other creative work I should say 429 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: that really inspired you and that you think may help 430 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: to inspire other people as they live through this. 431 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 2: Maybe inspire isn't the word, but I actually I think 432 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 2: it kind of is. But you'll see why whenever I 433 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 2: say this that I hesitated for a minute when I 434 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 2: use that word, just because whenever we say the word inspire, 435 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 2: we tend to think it has to be something serious, 436 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 2: you know, something where there's no laughter involved, where you know, 437 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 2: almost like going to church or something. For me, one 438 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 2: of the things that inspire me, I have been going 439 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 2: back and rewatching old reruns of one of my favorite 440 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 2: TV shows of all time. It was what this show 441 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 2: called My Name Is Earl with Jason Lee, and it's 442 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 2: about this guy who made a list of every bad 443 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 2: thing he had ever done to it in his life, 444 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 2: to anyone, and decided he's going to go down this 445 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 2: list and make whatever he had done right to whoever 446 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 2: he had wronged. 447 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 3: And it's one of those things that I will sit 448 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 3: there and. 449 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 2: Watch this show and just laugh out loud for half 450 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 2: an hour at a time. And whenever I'm watching this 451 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 2: and I'm laughing at it and I'm enjoying myself and 452 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 2: enjoying my life, I'm not thinking about my hardships. Somebody 453 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 2: told me one time that, yes, you have to dedicate 454 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 2: yourself to development and growth and all these sorts of things, 455 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 2: but at the same time, you can't lose the ability 456 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 2: to appreciate a good joke, because humor is a big 457 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 2: part of what makes life worth living. Find something that 458 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 2: makes you laugh and maybe watch that or listen to 459 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 2: that or read that. 460 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: Right, there's so much great comedy online. Yes, well, I mean, 461 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: I know, I love Lewis Black and Ye f Ross 462 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 1: is one of my favorite comics, and you know, there's 463 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: so many wonderful comedians. So yeah, that's a great idea, 464 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: and I'm going to watch my Name Is There all. 465 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: That's an amazing plug. I'm excited to actually tune into 466 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 1: that tonight because I'm watching too many documentaries and too 467 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: much heavy stuff and I feel like I can use 468 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: that escape too, So thanks for the recommendation. 469 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 4: And of course there's always you know, curb your enthusiasms 470 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 4: sort of my default when I really need, when I 471 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 4: need something ridiculous to turn to, it's a it's that's 472 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 4: that's an easy h an easy escape. 473 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: JB's movement that every time. And so there's uh Susy 474 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: Esmond every time she opens her valve it makes me laughing. Well, Damien, listen, 475 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: I I can say that I miss you guys. I'm 476 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: looking forward when this is done to going out for 477 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: one of our our wonderful dinners that we have time 478 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 1: to time. And please please give a big hug to 479 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: your wonderful wife Lorie for me. And now, you know, 480 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: I think all that's left here is for me to 481 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: first of all, thank you again for inspiring me and 482 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 1: all of us on a daily basis, and particularly for 483 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: sharing your you know, your perspective with our audience, which 484 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: I think is going to really have a wonderful impact 485 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: on a lot of people. And then, you know, this 486 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: is always the part of the show that I enjoyed 487 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: the most, which is the part where I get to 488 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: actually just turn my mic off and kick back and 489 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: close my eyes and listen to whatever you have to 490 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: say that you haven't said already. So to close out 491 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: this episode, thanks again, Damien. And now words of wisdom, 492 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: Damien Echols, the floor is yours. 493 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 2: I'm not sure how much these qualify as words of wisdom, 494 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 2: but I guess what I really just want to say 495 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 2: to everyone who's going through quarantine right now, who is 496 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 2: in self isolation, is thank you for doing this. I, myself, 497 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 2: as well as many many other people, fall into the 498 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 2: category that they call high risk. You know, I spent 499 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 2: almost twenty years in prison. I did not have adequate nutrition, 500 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 2: no sunlight, no fresh air. I was breathing in tear 501 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 2: gas for almost twenty years, and it caused a lot 502 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 2: of devastating and lingering effects to my respiratory system. So 503 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 2: I'm just really appreciative for how serious everyone is taking 504 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 2: this and how everyone is kind of battening down the 505 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 2: hatches and dealing with it even when they don't. 506 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 3: Want to, because you are, whether you know it or not. 507 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 2: You know, when we think of saving people's lives, we 508 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 2: tend to think of these big, heroic scenarios. Sometimes they're 509 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 2: not like that at all. Sometimes you can save lives 510 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 2: by just doing a tiny, tiny thing like staying home 511 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 2: and watching reruns of your favorite comedy and trying to 512 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 2: enjoy yourself a little bit. So thank you, Thank everyone 513 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 2: listening to this so much for doing whatever you can 514 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 2: to save lives. 515 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 3: Mine included. 516 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: This episode was so it was such an amazing experience 517 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: for me. Listening to Damien, Well, I could listen to 518 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: Damien for hours anytime, because he's just such a he's 519 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: such a deep thinker, he's such an eloquent guy, he's 520 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: such a strong you know, it's just sort of ethereal 521 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: presence and his perspective on how to manage this bizarre 522 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: new reality that we're in It affected me in ways 523 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,239 Speaker 1: both deep and also very in a very lighthearted way 524 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: as well. I mean, he gave me, I believe it 525 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: or not, he gave me a TV show to watch 526 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: that I just started watching I've never heard of before, 527 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: that's been making me laugh out loud. And he gave 528 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: me I can only call it a gift. He gave 529 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: me a gift of gratitude in my attitude and of 530 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: just really thinking of this whole situation in a much 531 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: different way. We don't have to live through this. We 532 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: get to live through this. We don't need to be 533 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: confined by what we're experiencing. We don't need to be 534 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: defined by what we're experiencing. He's not He's able to 535 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: transcend this, just as he was able to transcend the 536 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: tiny environment that he lived in the cold, the heat, 537 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: the loneliness, the frustration, the awful food, the fact that 538 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: he could stretch his arms out and touch both sides 539 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: of his cell, and he was able to, in that environment, 540 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: take himself out and live a life that was rich. Somehow, 541 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: I know, it seems like it doesn't make sense, but 542 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: it's true. He was able to live a full life 543 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: in that tiny cell with no Internet and no TV, 544 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: and no refrigerator and no creature comforts whatsoever. He had 545 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: nothing but his own mind and heart and his will 546 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: to live and survive and more and to persevere and 547 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: to grow. He found ways to grow. He didn't have YouTube, 548 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: he didn't have Google, he didn't have Netflix, he had nothing. 549 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: But somehow he transcended, and he's now transcending again. And 550 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: the way that he's doing it, obviously is informed by 551 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: his life experience, which is an experience that is probably 552 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: impossible for any of us to comprehend that haven't actually 553 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: been through it, and very few have been through the 554 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: extreme deprivation and torture that he's been through. So if 555 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: he can do it, we can do it. I guess 556 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: the answer is we need to be grateful for your life, 557 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: for the people around you, for the roof over your head, 558 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: and when the dust settles and the madness slows, we 559 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: can meet the outside world again with new skills, new purpose, 560 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: and a renewed appreciation for all of it, especially for 561 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: all of those not in isolation. Those are the real heroes, 562 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: the people who are fighting this thing head on. Our doctors, 563 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: our nurses, all the healthcare providers, our garbage men, our 564 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: grocery store workers, people doing deliveries, the mailman, people keeping 565 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: things clean, and of course are first responders in the meantime. 566 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: I hope you've been enjoying Laura and I write Receieve 567 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: Drisen and their eye opening accounts of false confessions. I'll 568 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: be returning with the new season of Wrongful Conviction with 569 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: Jason Floman May next week. We're talking to one of 570 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: my favorite human beings, my little sister, Amanda Knox. So 571 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: come back for another new perspective on living in the 572 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: age of COVID. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. 573 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 3: Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. 574 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and 575 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very 576 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go 577 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and 578 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor 579 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is 580 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure 581 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on 582 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm 583 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,959 Speaker 1: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association 584 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one