1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: On the side, we are two working parents who love 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode one hundred and ninety four, 11 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: which is first airing in late April of twenty twenty one. 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: We are going to be talking all things email today. 13 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: I know we've talked briefly about email in the past 14 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: and our approaches to it and all that. But Sarah 15 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: and I both recently read Cal Newport's new book A 16 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: World Without Email. I reviewed it for The Wall Street 17 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: Journal if anyone got a chance to see their review 18 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago, and Sarah also read it 19 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: and had some thoughts on it. So we wanted to 20 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: discuss how we approach emails. Some ideas that we've come 21 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: up with over the years some thoughts from Cal's book 22 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: as well. So, Sarah, how many emails do you have 23 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: in your various inboxes right now? I have one hundred 24 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: and sixty in my Gmail and one hundred and twenty 25 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: seven in my work email. Right now as we are 26 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: recording this, this is Thursday. So the day of the 27 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: week has, as we will discuss, has some influence on 28 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: how full my inboxes are likely to be on any 29 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 1: given day. Oh and I look to see how many 30 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: emails I got within like the last twenty four hour period, 31 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: and it wasn't a super heavy email day. I don't 32 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: think I got like sixty work emails and about actually 33 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: a similar number of Gmail, half of which we're like 34 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: spam and junk. Yeah, so that's why I say, I 35 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: don't really know. I know, I get like it maybe 36 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: like two hundred emails a day, but it's like a 37 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: lot of it's spam and junk. You know that I 38 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: somehow I try to avoid. But you know, you wind 39 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: up on lists over time. It's not pure junk set. 40 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: You've wound up on various lists that you wanted to 41 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: read like a couple times, but then it keeps coming. 42 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: And then so my Yahoo account is also out in 43 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: the world in the public relations space that people get 44 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: that list that in the past is like, oh well, 45 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 1: this is a you know, journalist who covers X or whatever, 46 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,519 Speaker 1: and so people do email meself and occasional it's useful. 47 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: So that's why I don't generally try to get myself 48 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: off all these lists. But it does add up. So 49 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: of the two hundred, maybe like twenty or twenty five 50 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: or like a real interest, So I have to do 51 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: a lot of deleting. I don't know. I don't archive stuff, 52 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 1: so I probably have. I mean, I have definitely fifty 53 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: sixty more thousand in my Yahoo, but I don't archive. 54 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: It's just sitting there. That would be somebody else's archive. 55 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: I have six hundred and seventeen unread ones, which to 56 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: me means zero because I could probably go through and 57 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: delete those six hundred and seventeen unread ones from the 58 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 1: past somewhere, but I don't. It doesn't bother me, Sarah 59 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: and I've discussed our differences of, you know, how we 60 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: view these things, So the clutter doesn't bother me as 61 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: much as I think it does, Sarah, because you do 62 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: try to get to inbox sera, yes, but I'm like 63 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: not fastidious about how I do it. So there are 64 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: definitely So. I recently had Kelsey Wharton on Bestlaid Plans. 65 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: She is a co host of the Girl Nextdoor podcast, 66 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: and she talks a lot about organization and she has 67 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: this like elaborate Gmail thing where she kind of manages 68 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: her task via email and it sounds really really cool, 69 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: but I don't actually do that. I just have like, 70 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: I mean, the archive might as well be the delete button, 71 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: except that I could like find it later. I mean, 72 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: Gmail is very easy to do that. It's just xxxxx 73 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: click the thing. I do prefer to do that versus 74 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: your kind of more holistic like I kind of know 75 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: what's in there because I guess it just gives me 76 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: a sense that like at least I've scanned and I 77 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: don't open everything. A lot of times stuff goes into 78 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: the archives without ever being open, but it's like it's 79 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: been processed, check it doesn't it filed anywhere. It just 80 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: goes into a big bucket. Because as we'll talk about 81 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: gmails search feature, it's pretty fantastic. I gotta say, like 82 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: you really, you know, if you're like, oh, I want 83 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: to remember, you know where we did gymnastics lessons in 84 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, Like you can find that. It's amazing. Yeah, 85 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: just type gymnastics and it'll come up. I mean, it's amazing. 86 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: And I'm sure if I had fastidious folders that were 87 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: like kids' activities, then I guess, I mean, I would 88 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: still find it, but I get the same result. Folders 89 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:31,919 Speaker 1: is a waste of time. I mean, there's been research 90 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: into this. It's a total waste of time. It actually 91 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: takes you more time to find things via folders than 92 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 1: it does to just search in any of the good 93 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: email programs. Now, the search is better than you are 94 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: going to come up with on your files. Now, I'm 95 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: sure we're going to hear from somebody to be like, no, no, no, 96 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: my filing system is perfect and I remember all my 97 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: flys and folders and where it would have gone. But 98 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: you are not average. Then let's put it that way. 99 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: The timing studies have found that it is faster to 100 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: do the search and it is to look back through 101 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: folders to attempt to find things. So you clear it 102 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: out on specific days of the week, then right, yeah, us, Well, 103 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: and I'm not like again, I'm not like super super 104 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: one hundred percent consistent about it. There's weeks that just 105 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: get busy and it doesn't happen. So I don't know. 106 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: Sometimes I feel like when I talk on this podcast, 107 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: it sounds like I'm like, always stick to every ritual perfectly, 108 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: and it's like, no, I describe my rituals because it's 109 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: like the basic idea. But as I've said, I'm not 110 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: a perfectionist, and so lots of times, maybe two weeks 111 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: will go by. But I try weekly or bi weekly 112 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: or whatever, usually on Fridays to get my work inbox 113 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: to zero. And I do have one folder that I 114 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: use for my work inbox. It basically funnel anything that 115 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: I need to look back at later. I don't really 116 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 1: use it to collect to do items. It's more like 117 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: and this is like soon ish reference material of things 118 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: that are still going on, like okay, we're planning our 119 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: orientation schedule and I need to and I keep that 120 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: till like I don't know, fifty or less, like it's 121 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: not a huge box, and then everything else just goes 122 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,559 Speaker 1: into archives and I get to zero. And that's actually 123 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: important from a work perspective, because I'll get little things 124 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: in there that like they don't at first glance don't 125 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: look that important. But it's like, oh my gosh, if 126 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 1: I don't like fill out this form for ex resident 127 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: to you know, finish their Florida licensing credentials, and I 128 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: don't do it by a certain date, like they're not 129 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: going to start on time, and so I really find 130 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,239 Speaker 1: it important to get to zero there. And then my Gmail, 131 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: I usually do it at some point over the weekend, 132 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: and there's no there's no sorting whatsoever. It's either either 133 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: an item goes into my planner to do or maybe 134 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: sometimes like if it's a podcast question or something I 135 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: kind of keep in a collection, it'll go in a 136 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: specific place in Apple notes where I keep that, or 137 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: it gets archived the end, and then I love to 138 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: get it to to zero. Yeah, it is satisfying for 139 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: whatever reason. Yeah. Well, I should add here that I 140 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: currently have three email in boxes, so I have Yahoo, 141 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: which is my main one that I sort of operate 142 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: out of it. I know that's really old school. People 143 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 1: are like, what really still? But I do because whatever, 144 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: it's what I'm used to. My husband has a hotmail count, 145 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: Like I should tell you how old we are right here. 146 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: I have a Gmail account that's you know, el vander 147 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: kamat Gmail, which I use because it's linked to my 148 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: Chrome browser. So anything that needs see it opened and 149 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: Chrome gets sent to that because then Yahoo's on Safari. 150 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: I'm sure I could switch it up, but that's the 151 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: way it's been right now, so there are certain programs 152 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: that only open and Chrome versus Safari on my map. Anyway, 153 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: it's also nice to have a backup because then if 154 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: I want to archive something but I don't want it 155 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: in my sort of workflow, then I send it over 156 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: to Gmail to have a copy of it. I have 157 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: a nerdy sad question, okay, which is do you use 158 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: like the mail client on your Apple or not? No, 159 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: I use my browsers. I'm sure I could, but I 160 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: just don't. Haven't. It's just not how I have worked. 161 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: And then I have another Gmail account that's linked to 162 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: my website, which is Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. 163 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: And so that's sort of a also a public email there, 164 00:07:57,560 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: so if people come in through my website, that's where 165 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: it will email to me. It's just out there as well, 166 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: Like I mean, that's an email address. People might think 167 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: to send me stuff, and so anything coming out of 168 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: my newsletters or coming out of the website or all 169 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: that will go there. I mean, I'm indifferent, like I 170 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: have people emailing both, and because people might email me 171 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,239 Speaker 1: in any of the three, I do check them all. 172 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: But I check the Yahoo one multiple times a day. 173 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: I'll probably check the Gmail and the two Gmail accounts 174 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: once a day or every other day, because those tend 175 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: not to be quite as urgent. Fun fact about at 176 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: least multiple gmails, you can forward them all to one 177 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: if you ever wanted to. So, like we have a 178 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: family one, which was a tip I think we got 179 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:40,559 Speaker 1: from a listener a long time ago. We have like 180 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: a Sarah and Joshua unger that we I think Josh 181 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: accesses it directly, but I actually forward a copy of 182 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: that to my main inbox. So on the plus side, 183 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: it means you can have multiple inboxes without having any 184 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: check multiple inboxes like I never go in there to check. 185 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: On the minus side, sometimes it makes responding really confusing 186 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: because it'll funnel to your main inbox than when you respond, 187 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: you don't realize that you're like using your own and 188 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: I don't know. There are a little bit of complications 189 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: that are added to that. But if you ever have 190 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: considered getting like a family address, it's nice to know 191 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: that you can actually just for that to your main 192 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: Gmail inbox, at least in Gmail. I'm sure other email. Yeah, similar. Well, 193 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: so we read this book called A World Without Email 194 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: from Calendar a Port, which is quite quite a bold title, 195 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 1: to have a world without email. I mean, Sarah, did 196 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: you have any sort of like adult life without email? You? 197 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: I mean we were sort of right on the dividing 198 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: line of where email was something people always used. Yeah, 199 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: I don't think I had adult life without email. Even 200 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: in college there was email. So yeah, there was always email. 201 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: There's always But I think, I mean, he admitted that 202 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: the title was a little overreaching and if he had 203 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: kind of named it, what the book was really about 204 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: it was sort of like a world without the hyperactive 205 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: hive mind mentality, which we can talk about what he 206 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: means by that, which I actually think is a fantastic 207 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: descriptor and I've been using it more and more in 208 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 1: my everyday conversation. I think, as publisher describe this hyperactive, 209 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: high hyperactive hide mind is the idea that in knowledge 210 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 1: work we're going to get stuff done by just pining 211 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: each other all day long whenever we need somebody for something, 212 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: and that like basically like we're just going to somehow 213 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: as a group move forward with various projects without any 214 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: organized way of communicating means to each other other than 215 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: like ad hoc continuous email and chat conversations, and like, honestly, 216 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: to some extent, that's what I see happening. I mean, 217 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: We'll be like trying to plan an event and it's 218 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: like I'll get emails and then I'll even get like 219 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: texts on my phone while I'm responding to the email, 220 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: and it's just like, Okay, this could have been like 221 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: let's have a fifteen minute face to face conversation about 222 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: like what we're going to do with the event and 223 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: like move on. And instead it's like ping ping, ping, 224 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: ping ping all day long. And then oh, let's loop 225 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: this person in. And now I've become in a supervisory 226 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: so now I'm like getting like randomly c seed on 227 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:04,959 Speaker 1: stuff and it's like, oh, we're just gonna We're just gonna. 228 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: I love the loop you like, what does that mean? 229 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: Like do you want me to supervise this? Do you 230 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: just want me to be aware of it. Do you 231 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: want me to police this in some way or is 232 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: it just for my information? And what does that even mean? Like, wow, 233 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: I'm going on a tangent, but I there is something 234 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: about the continuous conversations that are happening and sort of 235 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: the expectation of very rapid response time both in email 236 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: and through text and now through some clinical chat applications 237 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: that add like another layer where hyperactive high of mind 238 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: is what it feels like, like a bunch of bees 239 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: buzzing around, kind of sort of moving in one direction, 240 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: but in a very very inefficient manner. And so I 241 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: really really like that descriptor, and that's what it means 242 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: to me. Okay, yeah, So a world without email. He 243 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: talks about the history of email and how technology sort 244 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: of creates its own paths of how people use it. 245 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: So it's not that somebody designed email in a certain 246 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: it's just that whatever was the easiest way for it 247 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 1: to be used winds up being how it is used, 248 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: especially taking into account human nature. One of the stories 249 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: in there is when IBM first introduced email and its headquarters, 250 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 1: there was an attempt to figure out how much people 251 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: would use it, right, So, as they were building the 252 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: server capacity for people to send emails. They said, well, 253 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: how much will people use it? Okay, well, let's add 254 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: up like the voicemails, the memos. If anyone remembers the 255 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: interoffice memo, it's in this grubby vanilla folder that's like Manila. 256 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: Sorry not vanilla, but it's grubby. It's like everyone's touched it. 257 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: The little threads are falling apart that you have to 258 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,959 Speaker 1: wrap around. You write the next person's name and cross 259 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: out the one, and it's gross. It's discussing, and that's 260 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: what people use. Email is definitely better anyway, So the voicemails, 261 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: the inner office memos, the scribbled notes, they're like, okay, 262 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: let's add that up. See what the amount of capacity 263 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: is we need? Okay, So that's what they set the 264 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: server for. They blow through it imediately because people realize, like, oh, 265 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: I could just send an email instead of going to 266 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: find this person and talking to them, and so what 267 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: would have been a fifteen minute conversation, as Sarah was said, 268 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,719 Speaker 1: is now ten back and forth emails, which requires more capacity. 269 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: People discovered that they could copy others, the dreaded cc 270 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: as that came to be, and so he quotes cal 271 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: quotes an IBM employees saying, basically, in one week there 272 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: was gained and lost the entire prudential productivity gain of email, 273 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: because all of a sudden you went from something that 274 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: was definitely better than what came before, Like sending an 275 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: email is so much more convenient in many cases than 276 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: playing phone tag with somebody all day. It's so much 277 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: more convenient than those horrible folders where you cross out 278 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 1: the name and send the document then on to the 279 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: next person. But people didn't use it necessarily rationally. They 280 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 1: used it in a way that was creating this hyperactive 281 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: hive mind where you go back and forth ten times 282 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: instead of having one conversation, and you add other people 283 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: because why not. There's no cost to it. It's frictionless 284 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: communication at scale. And so it's a fascinating idea. So 285 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: we have to take a quick break and when we 286 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: get back, we're going to talk more about those Manilla folders. Okay, 287 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: so you mentioned the Manila folders being terrible, but I 288 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: think what you just said is such a good point, 289 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: which is like maybe we needed a little friction, you know, 290 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: Obviously not having friction drastically changed how we now use 291 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: our attention and fragment our attention probably to our detriment. 292 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: And one example that I have noticed in medicine is 293 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: now that we have this chat feature, I will get 294 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: pinged about things that I'm not sure somebody would have 295 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: bothered to pick up the phone and tell me, because 296 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: picking up the phone is harder and more stressful. And 297 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: let's say a resident has to pick up the phone 298 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: and tell me something about a patient, They're more likely 299 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: to actually like do their homework first and like think 300 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: about what they want to tell me and think about 301 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: what I might ask, and be prepared for this phone call. 302 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: But sending like a one liner text, Hey, this patient's 303 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: blood sugar is you know one hundred and thirty seven. 304 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: I just made that up. That is not real. Anything 305 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: is a lot easier. And then often when I respond, 306 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: like they haven't even thought about the next step because 307 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: it was very stress free and easy to just tell 308 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: me some piece of information. So that is how I 309 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: am seeing the hyperactive hive mind even go one step 310 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: further and to some extent alter clinical communications. And I've 311 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: actually seen this happen much more recently, you know, this 312 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: dawn of email. Obviously, as Laura said, like that was 313 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: so long ago for us that we can barely imagine 314 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: a world without email. But I can imagine a world 315 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: without texted random clinical bits of info, because that's how 316 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: it was like a year ago, a two months ago. 317 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: And I am actually terrified thinking that I'm concerned about, 318 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: like you know, the rest of my job, kind of 319 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: going in the hyperactive hive mind direction. So I mean, 320 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: I don't have an answer, and I think there are 321 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: wonderful things about being able to reach anyone at any time, 322 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: but there are very bad things too, and nobody likes 323 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: to think about them except they were in this book, 324 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: which is why I really liked it. Some of my 325 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: summer internships in college, you know, I was doing some 326 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: reporting when most people were not on email, and so 327 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: I was just like using my own email address basically 328 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: like you know that I could use to send out, 329 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: but you would call people, and the problem is you 330 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: would call the same people because you had their phone numbers. 331 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: You know, they would get to your phone call, right, 332 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: So its email. Of course you could reach out to 333 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: a broader, more diverse set of people, which is awesome, 334 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: But of course because you can, there's a certain volume 335 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: associated with email, which is one thing. When it comes 336 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: from people you don't know, you can ignore that. But 337 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: when it comes from people you do know, that's the problem. 338 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: So the volume went way up from where people expected, 339 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: and now people get hundreds of emails a day. You know, 340 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: sometimes some of us can ignore it, other people can't. 341 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 1: So people are checking their email every six minutes on average. 342 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: I think that was a statistic from Cal's book that 343 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: he said, you know, every six minutes, which, if you 344 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: think about it, like you can't get anything else done 345 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 1: during the work day if you are checking your inbox 346 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: or slack messages every six minutes, and that he also 347 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 1: argues that email makes us miserable because our brains are 348 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: wired to have this kind of back and forth with 349 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: our tribe members. So your close colleagues are the people 350 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: you are fighting the masted on with, and because of that, 351 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: you would never ignore them because they may find a 352 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: masted on that's going to feed you in the event 353 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: of the next famine, and so ignoring their email feels 354 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: incredibly risky to your brain circuits that have evolved over 355 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: the years to have these close alliances where you would never, 356 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: you know, ignore a friend or family member. And they 357 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: were asking to get your attention, and so people feel 358 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: they can't not respond, and so that leads to being 359 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: on every six minutes and feeling miserable when you try 360 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: to get away from email because you're worried that you're 361 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: missing something that is important to you. So, you know, 362 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,199 Speaker 1: I thought that was an interesting way of putting it. 363 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: I mean, because I think he makes the argument that 364 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: for a lot of internal communication, and here's what they 365 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 1: it would be a world with less email, but it's 366 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: the internal team communication that should not be done by email. 367 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 1: So you've had a couple ideas, Sarah of like how 368 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: you know in your workflow, for instance, it might work 369 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 1: to do other things other than email. Yeah, and I 370 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: think getting the cultural shift away from the expectation of 371 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 1: twenty four to seven availability for everything is an important 372 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 1: piece of that. Now I can imagine someone listening to 373 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: my prior rant about getting the pay message and saying, well, 374 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 1: that's terrible. You should want to have every detail about 375 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: the pape. But the truth is you can't be pinged 376 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: about every detail about everything of your job every minute, 377 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: or you can't do your job. Like the brain is 378 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: not able to deal with five different inputs every fifteen 379 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,719 Speaker 1: minutes on a different topic. So there has to be 380 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: some official, organized way of corralling your work into ways 381 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: that your brain can handle that, which might mean, you know, 382 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 1: making sure that the clinical realm is separate from other 383 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: things that you are trying to do by protecting that time, 384 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: either by putting like an away message on your chat 385 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: or just having kind of like Mora's that unless there's 386 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 1: some sort of very time sensitive emergency that you know, 387 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: these are the times that I'm on, and these are 388 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: the times that I aren't and that I am not. 389 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: And that's kind of what physician coverage systems are for 390 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: within patient care, right. But then I think all of 391 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: a sudden, at least in some institutions, when you introduce 392 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: the idea of the chat, gets a little bit blurry 393 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: because it's like, well, I'm just gonna, you know, ask 394 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: them a quick question. But it's like that's such a 395 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: slippery slope because you don't also want to give a 396 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: patient kind of like half of your attention. You want 397 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: to give it your patients all of your attention, but 398 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: you can't do that while you're in the middle of 399 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: something else. So I guess just making sure that it 400 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: is thought through how people's time is divided and protected 401 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: to some extent. And again when I say protected, I 402 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: think people start to think, like, well, you don't get 403 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: to go in your ivory tower and like sit around. 404 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: But it's like, no, I just need to do my 405 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: other part of my job, or I need to be 406 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 1: seeing these outpatients, not these inpatients, and not trying to 407 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: do everything at once. Now I think some things that 408 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: might help with that. You know, Cal talks a lot 409 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: about kind of the administrative details of his position, and 410 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: actually he did like director of Graduate Studies, which to 411 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 1: me is like very parallel because I'm a residency program 412 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 1: director and I'm like, oh, like I have many of 413 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: the same challenges and you can do more short organized 414 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: meetings with groups of people where you get together and 415 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: you know what day. I think having like knowing that 416 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: every Friday is going to be a meeting is half 417 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: the battle. Like it's not just the meeting itself, it's 418 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: knowing that, like, you're gonna have access to this person 419 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: every Friday, so you can save things up and not 420 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,239 Speaker 1: have to like ping them as ideas come to you, 421 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: and being organized and planning is part of that. Like 422 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: I actually use my planner. For example, when I know 423 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: that I'm going to meet with one of my supervisors, 424 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: I have like a list going on that date of 425 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: like topics that have come up in the prior weeks 426 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: that I know I want to speak with her about, 427 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: so that I'm not sending her an email every week 428 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: because I know that she gets probably nine thousand emails 429 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: a day, and like, why would I want to do 430 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: that to her when each of these emails would probably 431 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: be a back and forth It would be so much 432 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: faster in a person to person meeting. So I think 433 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: doing that more and making sure meetings are very regular, predictable, 434 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 1: and efficient that you're not just having them to have them, 435 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 1: but you're like, okay, this is when this little group 436 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: gets together. It can be fifteen minutes, it could be 437 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 1: like brief, reef brief. I think the goal is actually 438 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: to make them as as short as possible really so 439 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,360 Speaker 1: you can get on to the meet of actually doing 440 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: your work, but kind of predictable get togethers. And the 441 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: other idea I really liked from him is the office 442 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: hours idea. And I think this can help if you're 443 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: in a supervisory role where people are coming to you 444 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: at hop like oh, you know this little thing, that 445 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: little thing, and that's okay. You know, if they don't 446 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: have a specific time they're supposed to do that, then 447 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: of course they are going to do that anytime. And 448 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: what's the easiest way to do it by pinging you 449 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: with a text or a little staff message. But if 450 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: instead you were, like on Fridays at three o'clock, I'm 451 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: going to be on an open zoom meeting and any 452 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: of you can like come in either as a group 453 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: or one at a time and let me know what's 454 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: going on, and I can like kind of create a 455 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: to do list going forward. Then I'm hoping that that 456 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: might kind of reduce some of the random pinging that 457 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 1: goes on. So I am going to experiment personally with 458 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: some of these things in my job. I haven't figured 459 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: out exactly how to translate those to the clinical realm. 460 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 1: I think in like in patient units, it's already done 461 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: well to some extent. I mean, that's what rounds are. 462 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: There are people getting together so that they're not randomly 463 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: just getting anybody through the day as anything comes up, 464 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: but they're saving it for around so that already does happen. 465 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 1: So that's a great model but I think we have 466 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 1: to be careful not to let new technologies tempt us 467 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: to kind of stop using that model very well, I guess, 468 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: because it's there for a reason. So yeah, he talks 469 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: about a couple other tools for internal email reduction, such 470 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: as using calendar scheduling software. I know a lot of 471 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: people have that. You can book me or calendar apps 472 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: that you know, here are my available times. Choose one 473 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: that can solve about six back and forth emails. Sometimes 474 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: if you're trying to set up a meeting. You can 475 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: also use project management software. Talks about Trello or things 476 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: like that. It's not so much that I mean you're 477 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: you're using technology. I mean it's it's still something you 478 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: can do virtually, but you are choosing which project to 479 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: focus on, and then you are focusing on that project 480 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: while you are in it, As opposed to email, which 481 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: is randomly back and forth of lots of different projects. 482 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 1: Right that you could be thinking about one thing and 483 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: then new email comes back on another project, and so 484 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: then you go to that, and then you go back 485 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: and forth between them. So it just sort of flips 486 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 1: the script on how you deal with messages on any 487 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: given event. Because a project board, all the messages are 488 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: going to be related to that project, so you can 489 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,239 Speaker 1: have the efficiency of focusing fully on that even though 490 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 1: you're getting messages as opposed to getting messages on for 491 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: different projects that you happen to be staffed on. If 492 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: that's the case, and so that's definitely helpful for people 493 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: who are in management if you're doing multiple projects like that. 494 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,479 Speaker 1: Certain things we can do personally. I always tell people like, 495 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: even if you feel like you need to be on 496 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: email a lot, and I get that, there are people 497 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 1: who really do feel that they need to be on 498 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: it pretty much constantly. There is a big difference between checking, 499 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: say once every forty minutes. Like if you think of 500 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: an hour bifurcated into forty minutes on something and then 501 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: twenty minutes on email and messages, and then the next 502 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: hour forty minutes on something and then twenty minutes on 503 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 1: email and messages, nobody has to wait more than forty 504 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: five minutes to get in touch with you in that world. 505 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,479 Speaker 1: And there are all sorts of reasons you might not 506 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: be able to respond to something for forty five minutes. 507 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,360 Speaker 1: Right You could be on a very intense phone call 508 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: with someone in a meeting, you could be driving somewhere. 509 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: I mean, there's all sorts of reasons you would not 510 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: be able to respond in forty five minutes. That does 511 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: not feel like a huge ass, but the upside of 512 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 1: having that forty minutes where you are not constantly pinging 513 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: back and forth between things, allows you to do sort 514 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: of deepish work. To use another Calen new Port phase, 515 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: right that you can focus for forty five minutes on something, 516 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: get a lot done in forty uninterrupted minutes if that's possible, 517 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: and then deal with your messages after that. So bifurcating 518 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: as much as possible is going to be better than 519 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: going back and forth between them. You can also sort 520 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: of limit yourself if you find your saying is this 521 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: best as an email? If you find yourself writing a 522 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: long email. I mean a lot of people don't read 523 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: all the way through a long email because it just 524 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: looks oppressive, so they're like, well, I got to deal 525 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:04,919 Speaker 1: with that later. If it's going to be more than 526 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: a few sentences, you are probably best off calling the 527 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 1: person if you know them. I mean, if it's somebody 528 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: you don't know that you're responding to, or you know, 529 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: we get questions from listeners that we sometimes respond longer 530 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: than that. But if it's somebody you do work with 531 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: a lot, those are probably, you know, best replaced with 532 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: a phone call or a short end person meeting. Same 533 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: thing if you find yourself really carefully weighing your words, 534 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: because that's a sign that you're trying to convey a 535 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,959 Speaker 1: point that's going to be hard to convey an email. 536 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: There's also been some research into that people can't distinguish sarcasm. 537 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: They think anything email is angrier than it actually is. 538 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: It's perceived more negatively because you don't have the person's 539 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: smiling face as they are delivering whatever thing it is, 540 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: or the eye contact and the subtle facial cues or 541 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: even vocal cues that you might get on the phone. 542 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: You don't have those in the written word, and so 543 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: the written word automatically comes across as more negative. So 544 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: if it's in any way a tough email, pick up 545 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 1: the phone or get together with the person in person. No, 546 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: those are wise words. And I think if you are 547 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: somebody who tends to leave your email client open while 548 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: you're doing other things, the first step should be thinking 549 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: about what Laura just said and be like can I 550 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 1: open that for fifteen minutes at the end of every hour, 551 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: because you may think you have the wherewithal to stay 552 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: focused on your task while things are coming in, but 553 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: because of that whole human nature mastered on the situation, 554 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: you don't. I mean, maybe you do, but most people don't, 555 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: and so making that a continuous stream of inputs is 556 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: really going to be very stressful at best and detrimental 557 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: at worse to getting your job done. One other sort 558 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: of broader topic that came up in a world without 559 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: email was the idea of how technology has been made 560 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: it easy for many of us to do our own 561 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,239 Speaker 1: administrative work, but we may have gone a little bit 562 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: too far, and the idea of doing our own administrative work. So, 563 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: you know, in the past, like an executive had an 564 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: assistant who was charged with setting up meetings, or you know, 565 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: having the travel department do all the travel stuff or 566 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: filling out forms or anything along those lines. And now, 567 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 1: of course, you can do many of those things quite 568 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: easily yourself. I mean, obviously you can go book a 569 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: flight pretty easily, you can schedule your own meetings very easily. 570 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 1: But because of that, you wind up spending a lot 571 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: of time on doing those things, and you know, it's 572 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: probably not going to recreate a world where there it's 573 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: an assistant for everybody, but having some more administrative support 574 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: might be wise in certain places, or even just navigating 575 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: processes so that they don't treat employees, especially skilled, highly 576 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: trained employees attention. As part of the Tragedy of the Commons, 577 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: so Cal mentioned the idea of an attention ombudsman, the 578 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: idea being that each department is not going to be 579 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: allowed to send their own email newsletter to all internal employees. 580 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: Like if you have stuff people need to know, it 581 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: goes on one newsletter, then everybody gets that one newsletter 582 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: and you look at that as opposed to seventeen from 583 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: different apartments, departments, or you know, if there are forms 584 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: that need to be filled out, like each department creates 585 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: it in a way that works for them, and then 586 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: they send it out and people are trying to figure 587 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: it out. Well, an attention ombudsman would make sure that, well, 588 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: does this need to happen? What if we ask for 589 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: it in a little bit more intuitive format and then 590 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: you guys on the back end put it in the 591 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: format that is required for your particular technology, but that 592 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: you don't treat everyone's time and attention as limitless because 593 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: it isn't. And when people are checking their email every 594 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: six minutes, like nothing gets done except if it gets 595 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: done at nights and weekends, and that leads to burnout. Yes, well, 596 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: I think that's most of what we had to say. 597 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: I think, right, fun email, I think so. I mean 598 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: there's that like kind of agel don't check email in 599 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: the morning. I think there is something to that. I 600 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: try not to check my work email in the morning 601 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: unless there's something specific I was following up on or 602 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: like I am doing work in the morning, which does 603 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: happen sometimes. And when I say morning, I mean like 604 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: five am, so not often but sometimes. But I'm only 605 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: going to it if I'm strategically going to it. I'm 606 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: not going to it just to like see what happened overnight, 607 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: because then you're going to be sucked in and it's 608 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: too late. Your day belongs to whatever is there. Yeah. 609 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: I see this all the time on timelogs, and I 610 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: love that phrase. The never check email in the morning 611 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: from Julie Morgan Stern, one of our past podcast guests, 612 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: as well another a great productivity author that you guys 613 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: should check out if you haven't listened to that episode. 614 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: But the problem is people have this idea of like, Okay, 615 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to clear the decks and then I'm going 616 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: to get into my real work for the day. But 617 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: what tends to happen is if you start with email, 618 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: then you're dealing with whatever is hot in there and 619 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: you have to take care of it, and then your 620 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: first meeting. Let's say your first meeting's at ten, you 621 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: might only do email before ten thirty, and then you 622 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: have your meeting and then suddenly it's lunch and you 623 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: still haven't gotten to whatever the important work is that 624 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: the task you set yourself for the day, and then 625 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: early afternoon people have this energy slump and you're attempting 626 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: to do your tough work at the time, and you 627 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: would have had your energy slump. Whereas if you said, Okay, 628 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: planning my day, I know I have this tough task 629 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: I need to tackle. I'm starting my day at nine 630 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: if that's when your workday starts, and I'm going to 631 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: just do that until ten fifteen, then take a quick 632 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: glance at my email and go to my ten thirty 633 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: meeting afterwards. That would have been so much more productive. 634 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: You would have gotten through that task probably in that 635 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: hour in fifteen minutes, as opposed to leaving it for 636 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: two pm when you want a nap and it's going 637 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: to take two and a half hours because you keep 638 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: getting distracted. Because that's the way our brains work. So 639 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: we can should we do Love of the Week or question? First? 640 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: I forget what order we do, and we do these 641 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: you know, well, our love of the weeks we're sort 642 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: of email related or email related, and I already kind 643 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: of gave mine away, but I'll just reiterate that I 644 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: think search via Gmail in particular is genius and amazing 645 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: and a technological wonder that they should get some credit for, 646 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: which I'm sure they have profited nicely. Yes, good job. Yeah, well, 647 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: I mean Yeahoo's is good too. I'll put that out there. 648 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: I can almost always find what I need to through, Yes, 649 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: just keywords of like oh, you know, who was that 650 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: person who was in this field that I talked to 651 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: maybe three years ago? Like put in two twenty seventeen gardening, 652 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: and it comes up right like it's just wonderful. And 653 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: your brain is not nearly not as efficient as mentioned 654 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: by the fact that I'm like, huh gardening maybe twenty 655 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: seventeen exactly. I was going to put a shout out 656 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: to a couple email newsletters that I actually read. I 657 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: got put on the Hexios Future Email because a friend 658 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: of mine from college is the author of it, and 659 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: I enjoy reading it. It is great, you know, a 660 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: couple of brief ideas on future and scientific trends. So 661 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: people might want to look into the Axios news letters. 662 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: I think many of them are free, so go for it. 663 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: In terms of politics, I am all over the map. 664 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: I like to read iconoclastic people, and in this world 665 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: of like substack and paid news split or subscriptions, there 666 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: are really you can find just one kind of interesting 667 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: voice and follow that person. So you know, I read 668 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: Jonah Goldberg's stuff. He was at National Review for many 669 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: years and then sort of moved on to The Dispatch, 670 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 1: which is a kind of right of center, but very 671 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 1: sort of center right. Like anyway, I won't go into 672 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: the people know about the splits within the right wing 673 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: of different sides. Anyway, this is a very center right 674 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: the Dispatch. Their newsletters are pretty good. I also read 675 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: Matt Iglesias. I think that's how you say his name 676 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: he's been in the news lately because of his deal 677 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: with Substack, but he just always has very different ways 678 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: of looking at topics that aren't very straightforward left of center, 679 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: even though that's what he kind of would put himself as. 680 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: So I've enjoyed that reality of what email can bring 681 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: to us. And i'd put a shout out here that 682 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: both Sarah and I have email newsletters, so you can 683 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: subscribe to those and get our musings from time to 684 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,280 Speaker 1: time in case your Tuesday musings from us and Mondays 685 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: from Sarah on best Plaid Plans and our blogs are 686 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: not enough for you. We have more, and neither of 687 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: us are super frequent, so you'll just get a little 688 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: little taste every a few weeks, not like daily or 689 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: anything crazy. Yeah, and they're free, and they're free exactly 690 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: all right. So our question this week comes from a 691 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: listener who is staring down a major licensing exam, and 692 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: I know that many of our listeners have these and 693 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: different things. They accounting physicians have to get their board 694 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: certification every certain number of years, so you have this 695 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 1: major licensing exam requires a lot of studying. You could 696 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,359 Speaker 1: put any amount of time into it, but as a parent, 697 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: you probably don't have infinite amount of time, so she 698 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: had suggestions, how do you make time for studying? So, Sarah, 699 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: I am curious with your board certification. When that comes 700 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: up for renewal, what do you do? Haha? Well, actually, okay, 701 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: So my first board certification that I ever had to 702 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: study for with a child was my pediatric Endegrin boards 703 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen, and I did have a toddler, and 704 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: so I'll talk a little bit about that. But Pediatrics 705 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 1: has actually changed their structures, so I don't think I'm 706 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:20,879 Speaker 1: ever going to have to take an exam again, which 707 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: is pretty amazing. They changed it to like an online programmer. 708 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: You have to read articles and answer questions and it's 709 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: probably more time but in some ways less stressful. And 710 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: the idea is that you know, you take these exams 711 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:35,320 Speaker 1: and you pass them, but like, how much do you 712 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: really learn from them? Versus these are more designed to 713 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 1: facilitate lifelong learning and be a little bit less stressful. 714 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: So I haven't entered my first cycle yet. I think 715 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: it starts like next year because I'm about ten years 716 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: out from my initial exam. But I'll let you know. 717 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: But no, I don't I don't have to take a 718 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: test that I know of, and I'm happy about that. 719 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: But I do actually pretty vividly remember studying for my 720 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: boards when I had Annabel, and I had to just 721 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 1: be really really I was good at making study schedules, 722 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: of course for my med school days. That's like the 723 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: you know, any pre med or med student is going 724 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,359 Speaker 1: to be like a study schedule master. But I had 725 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: to be more realistic, Like it stopped being like can 726 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: I get the highest possible score, and it started being 727 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: like I need to do decently enough to know that 728 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to pass on, Like what's a reasonable amount 729 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: of hours to spend studying? And I kind of did 730 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: the same thing, but in a lighter version that I 731 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: had for my the prior hurdles that I had to pass, 732 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: where I would block off a certain number of quiz 733 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: questions that I wanted to get done over like a 734 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: kind of a six week period. And I also requested 735 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: some time off of my clinical service during fellowship, which 736 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: is pretty common, like you can use vacation time or 737 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: whatever if you want a week where you just cram, 738 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: and if you have kids, that might not be the 739 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 1: most glamorous option, but it's actually pretty effective because they 740 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 1: can be in daycare during the day and you can 741 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: spend some solid hours really prepping for a test. So 742 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: I am not above the idea that you could take 743 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: time off from your kind of regular workday stuff to 744 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,919 Speaker 1: really just do test prep. Everybody's testing skills and strategies 745 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: may vary. I tend to be a pretty good test taker, 746 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: so I didn't stress too much. But I think part 747 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 1: of that is putting in the work, creating an actual schedule, 748 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: and being realistic about the time that you have. Like 749 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: I think back to when I pre kids, and I 750 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: literally would study for like nine hours a day for days. 751 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: We sort of had that time built into our med 752 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,320 Speaker 1: school curriculum. I couldn't do that after I had anabell, 753 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: but I could still do like two hours like three 754 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: or four times a week, and knowing I had X 755 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,399 Speaker 1: amount of questions and X amount of topics I needed 756 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: to get through. So it was like, You're going to 757 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: do these specific things, not the like, oh, I'm going 758 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: to study in this vague sense, but like, I'm going 759 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: to do this block, this block fifty questions of those 760 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 1: fifty questions this week, and when am I going to 761 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 1: do that? I think as a parent, you just you 762 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: figure out where to put it in, You plan it, 763 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 1: and you get it done, and maybe you take off 764 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: some work with childcare to get some extra done. Yeah. 765 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:51,840 Speaker 1: I would also say that this deserves to be a 766 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:56,800 Speaker 1: family priority. That if you are going through the licensing 767 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: process for a career, either at the initial part of 768 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: it or too continue working in this career, that is 769 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: something that the rest of the family has a you know, 770 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: needs to be on board with and to treat it 771 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,879 Speaker 1: as a priority and something that can consume your time 772 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 1: for a while. It won't be forever, but it does 773 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: require some extra time. I mean. The reason I'm saying 774 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 1: this is because I read an absolutely horrifying study I 775 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: don't know if it's a year or two ago, about 776 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,320 Speaker 1: the percent of surgeons who passed Sarah, You're gonna have 777 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 1: to tell me which part of the exam it was. 778 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: But when you are like grilled by other people in 779 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: the field. Yeah, So that's the oral board, the oral 780 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 1: Josh had to do that twice, once for general surgery 781 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: and once for vascular. We don't have that in pediatrics. 782 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: So the oral boards. The pass rates for men were 783 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 1: unaffected by whether they were married or had kids. The 784 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:51,839 Speaker 1: pass rates for women were horrible for mothers, and I 785 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: think that that is just I mean, it's sad because 786 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 1: you have a lot of really well trained, good surgeons 787 00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: who are hitting this roadblock, and I think you may 788 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: be to try again, but it's still like what a 789 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,760 Speaker 1: waste and what it is is that you know, I'm 790 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 1: not sure because if you're being grilled by people in 791 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: the field, then there's also the element of like what 792 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: do people think a surgeon looks like? And it might 793 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 1: be that men don't pass women, But there's also a 794 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: question of how much you prepare for it, and if 795 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 1: your time is constrained in some ways, then it may 796 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 1: be harder to make the time for it. So make 797 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,800 Speaker 1: it a family priority. We can't solve the larger societal issues, 798 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: but you can decide that within the context of your family, 799 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,479 Speaker 1: you will not feel guilty about asking for the time 800 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,439 Speaker 1: to do it. Carve out a schedule. Maybe it's that 801 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: your partner takes the kids in the morning and you 802 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: can work from six am to the start of your 803 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: work day. You know, if that's three hours six am 804 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: to nine am, or is your study time and you're 805 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 1: going to do it three days a week for the 806 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: two months leading up to the exam. Right, that would 807 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,959 Speaker 1: be something that might work. You could also decide that 808 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: you are going to do every Saturday morning from nine 809 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:02,359 Speaker 1: to noon, or if you know you have a lot 810 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: of kids' sports on Saturday mornings, maybe it's that you 811 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: are going to get two to five on Saturdays and 812 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: make a backup spot, like if it doesn't happen on Saturday, 813 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: it's going to happen on Sunday, and that is just 814 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 1: how the family is going to deal with it for 815 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 1: the next few months until you get through that. I'm 816 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:19,720 Speaker 1: sorry this is a long winded thing, but I actually 817 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 1: think this is a really important thing, and it's something 818 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: that does keep women from advancing in fields is when 819 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: it doesn't become a family priority for them to leap 820 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: through these hoops. And by the way, if at least 821 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:31,839 Speaker 1: in the medical field, many of these exams cost two 822 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: thousand dollars, So if you fail, you're out two thousand dollars, 823 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,799 Speaker 1: and you can get a lot of childcare for two 824 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,280 Speaker 1: thousand dollars if you actually think of it. By the hours, 825 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 1: so it is an investment in yourself, not just in 826 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: the career, but in the exam itself. Many people will 827 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 1: work somewhere and they may cover it, but they're not 828 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: going to cover it if you fail or cover it 829 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 1: multiple times. One other thing I would say, though, is 830 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,920 Speaker 1: be sure you know what's on the exam, Like you 831 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 1: don't want to waste your time, and so there may 832 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 1: not be you know, open source realities of what is 833 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: on there, but you can talk to people who've been 834 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: through it. Make sure that one of your first steps 835 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 1: of preparing for it is to talk to say five 836 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 1: colleagues friends who have taken these exams and what they 837 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 1: felt was important to know, and make sure that you're 838 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,720 Speaker 1: studying with that in mind, rather than just shooting blind 839 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: and trying to spend as many hours as possible. Well, 840 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 1: this has been best of both worlds. We've talked a lot. 841 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 1: It has been a long episode on email, although I 842 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: think some of that's are splicing the other. But we 843 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: will be back next week with more on making work 844 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,399 Speaker 1: in life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find 845 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 1: me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the 846 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura 847 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,800 Speaker 1: at Laura Vandercam dot com This has been the best 848 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,360 Speaker 1: of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for 849 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,840 Speaker 1: more on making work and life work together.