1 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Why Not Me Embracing Autism and Mental Health Worldwide? 2 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: Hosted by Tony Mantor, Broadcasting from the heart of Music City, USA, Nashville, Tennessee. 3 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: Join us as our guests share their raw, powerful stories. 4 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: Some will spark laughter, others will move you to tears. 5 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: These real life journeys inspire, connect and remind you that 6 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: you're never alone. We're igniting a global movement to empower 7 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 1: everyone to make a lasting difference by fostering deep awareness 8 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: on wavering acceptance, and profound understanding of autism and mental health. 9 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: Tune in, be inspired, and join us in transforming the 10 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: world one story and a time. Hi, I'm Tony Mantor. 11 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Why Not May, Embracing Autism and Mental Health Worldwide. 12 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: Before we jump in, if you haven't already, I invite 13 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: you to tap follow. It only takes a couple of 14 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: seconds and it helps this show reach more families who 15 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: need to hear these conversations. Thanks for being here today. 16 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: We bring together a group of seven voices, each with 17 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:30,199 Speaker 1: their own experiences, perspectives, and stories. We will talk about 18 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: something that affects far more people than we often realize, 19 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,559 Speaker 1: serious mental illness in the spirit of Mental Health Awareness Month. 20 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: This is not just a discussion, It's an opportunity, an 21 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: opportunity to listen, to understand, and to bring light to 22 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: conversations that are too often left in the dark. Joining 23 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: us today is Crystal Fox, David Hagar, Laura Crasian, Linda Mimes, 24 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: Judge Milton Mack, Rachel Streith, and Ann Cochrane. This topic matters. 25 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: It touches families, friendships, and entire communities. This is episode 26 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: number two of a three part series that we'll focus 27 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: on serious mental illness. Today. We are creating a space 28 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: where honesty is welcome, where stories can be shared, and 29 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: where understanding can begin or deepen. For all of us listening, 30 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: I'm grateful to everyone that's joined us today. Let's start 31 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: episode two with you, Crystal. After everything we've discussed in 32 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: part one, I know you have some insights to share 33 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: what stood out to you. 34 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 2: Yes, I was going to respond a little bit to 35 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 2: everything as fast as I can here. So when they 36 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,679 Speaker 2: were talking about jail and not guilty by reason of 37 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 2: insanity again, Arizona has a bit of a problem, especially 38 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 2: in Maricopa County. We're kind of the wild West out here, 39 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 2: so our rule eleven because they did not want to 40 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 2: pay for hospitalization to restore people to competency. They do 41 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 2: it really poorly in the jails, and especially if you 42 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 2: have a violent crime, you will be even if it 43 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 2: takes years and years years restored to competency, even on 44 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 2: some of the better medications, only to be taken off 45 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,519 Speaker 2: those medications when your court is done and you're competent 46 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 2: and you have stood trial. So we have problems in 47 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 2: our jail system with that. Also talking about anasygnosia, I've 48 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 2: done a few things since we talked last Tony, and 49 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 2: one of them was I've gone to a nursing because 50 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 2: I'm a psychiatric nurse, so I've gone to a nursing 51 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 2: conference with I want to say, it had a couple 52 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 2: hundred doctorate level nurses. I was probably the least educated 53 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 2: person in the room, and I stood up because I 54 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: just couldn't take it anymore, and I asked if anybody 55 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 2: knew what anasignosia was. So the people that were in 56 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 2: the room were doctorate level nurses for nurse practitioners who 57 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: were educating nurse practitioners, and not a single one of 58 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 2: them knew what anasygnosia was and so I educated them. 59 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: And the good news is I did get asked to 60 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 2: speak in South Carolina on these topics and is going 61 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 2: to get to join me. She didn't know that yet. 62 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: So again the education in the schools is really lacking. 63 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 2: And then I just finished classes on family peer support 64 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 2: training or something of the sort, which is really interesting. 65 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 2: But what they said was in this class is in Arizona, 66 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 2: and this is again particular to Arizona. I think in 67 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: the nation, people with schizophrenia have a twenty five year 68 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 2: less life expectancy. In Arizona, that's thirty years. So I 69 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 2: did the math and I looked up average life expectancy 70 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 2: is seventy nine and if you minus so, you figure 71 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 2: a person gets schizophrenia in their twenties, right eighteen to 72 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 2: twenty five, and then you don't get diagnosed for another 73 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 2: few years. So the average age expectancy of somebody with 74 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 2: schizophrenia is only forty nine. So their life expectancy after 75 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 2: diagnosis of schizophrenia or psychosis disor is only twenty years. 76 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 2: We have people that have lived longer than that with cancer. 77 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 2: They lived that long with Alzheimer's disease. They lived that 78 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 2: long with Parkinson's disease, even lu Gerrig's disease, And we 79 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 2: don't have the life expectancy with schizophrenia, which is a 80 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 2: treatable disease with the proper medication. And one more thing 81 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 2: is the gap that we haven't talked about yet in 82 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 2: the system, which has to do with the first episodes, 83 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 2: which is what my son went through. So when I 84 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 2: went to seven different agencies to try to get my 85 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 2: son held, none of them took psychosis seriously. If he 86 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 2: did not say he was suicidal or going to hurt somebody, 87 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 2: they did not find his condition worthy of treatment. Psychosis 88 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 2: wasn't even though he had just not too long before 89 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 2: that pulled a knife on his father, because he didn't 90 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 2: do it right then. Even though we have the good laws, 91 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 2: the interpretation in these intake departments and by doctors is 92 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 2: not considered during psychosis as the emergency that it is. 93 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 2: And so that was a big gap in Joshua's case, 94 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 2: which led to the death of his father and then 95 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 2: eventually his own suicide. 96 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: That really underscores how serious and urgent this topic is. 97 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: And as hard as that story is, unfortunately it's not 98 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: the only one, and the tough part is some families 99 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: carry that weight with them in silence. Laura, can you 100 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: tell us about a situation that you heard of? And 101 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: I think this is going to give people the reasons 102 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: why these families often keep their experiences to themselves. 103 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 104 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 4: I mean recently, I was privileged to be in the 105 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 4: presence of someone who told me one of the worst 106 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 4: cases of psychosists that I've ever heard, and he was 107 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 4: mentioning that his niece had gouged out her own eyeballs 108 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 4: with brush in our state of psychosis, and the family 109 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 4: is so broken that they're not coming forward. 110 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 3: It's not in any of the newspapers, You'll never see 111 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 3: it online. And these are the kind of stories we're 112 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 3: fielding at National Shattering Silence Coalition, where we're trying to 113 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 3: pair the actual tragedies with the mediums to educate the 114 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 3: public and specifically the legislators who are making these choices 115 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 3: about laws and how policies are going to be designed. 116 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 3: We have to hear the stories, but the parents are 117 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 3: too traumatized and doing tony telling these stories getting them 118 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 3: out online. I was talking tonight with our families of 119 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 3: the State Hospital and they were so proud because one 120 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 3: of their members was on your show and that everybody 121 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 3: wanted to hear the show interview, and it just gave 122 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 3: them all some hope because, like David said, you know 123 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 3: these forensic places that house these patients, they're kind of 124 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 3: like no man's land. No one understands that the people 125 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 3: are in there not because they're bad people, but because 126 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 3: they are ill people. The crime was only committed in 127 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 3: a state of illness, not a state of immorality. 128 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: I think that's a very important thing that people need 129 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: to understand, that this is a state of illness, not 130 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: a state of somebody just being immoral. I think that's 131 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: a huge point for people to understand, because when we 132 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: misinterpret illness as behavior or choice, it changes how we 133 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: respond and often it lowers the level of care people 134 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: actually receive. And that brings us to a bigger question, 135 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: and are we as a system and as a society 136 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: unintentionally accepting a standard of care? 137 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 2: Yeah? 138 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 5: So I think that somehow, as a society, we have 139 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 5: come to accept a standard of neglect rather than a 140 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 5: standard of care for people with severe mental illness. And 141 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 5: I think it's been mentioned many times here. It really 142 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 5: is that educational peace. I've been working with some the 143 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 5: Association for Prosecuting Attorneys on something we're trying to do together, 144 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 5: and we were talking about the Matt and Michael stickcase 145 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 5: who you had on your show last year, where Matt 146 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 5: killed his mom not because he was a bad person, 147 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 5: but because he was left in psychosis. Well, I reached 148 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 5: out to Michael, Matt's dad to see if he remembered 149 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 5: who the prosecuting attorney was because we were perhaps going 150 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 5: to get that person to speak. Well, he shared with 151 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 5: me that the DA at the time who wanted Matt 152 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 5: to be convicted for murdering his mother, he had a 153 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 5: very different take on that several years later because he 154 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 5: experienced it with his own daughter who stabbed him. So 155 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 5: his whole you know, outlook on you know, psychosis and 156 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 5: mental illness had changed because of that. So I think 157 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 5: it really is, you know, helping people to understand and 158 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 5: to educate them so you know that we can change 159 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 5: these policies and that they will you know, support them 160 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:05,199 Speaker 5: as well. 161 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: It feels like as a society, we tend to think 162 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: it's okay until it's not okay in our own family, 163 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: and when that moment comes, everything changes. How do we 164 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: change that mindset. How do we get people to recognize 165 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: that this could happen to anyone, any family, at any time, 166 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: and we need to be engaged and part of the 167 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: solution before it comes personal. 168 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 5: I think you're doing that, Tony. By bringing stories, you 169 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 5: are doing exactly that because people are understanding, Wow, this 170 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 5: could happen to me. And the more that families speak 171 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 5: out about their stories, you know they're going to, you know, 172 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 5: understand that their parents, just like you know, any one 173 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 5: of us here could be And it's not because our 174 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 5: kids were raised bad or you know, they have character flaws. 175 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 5: It's because they have brain nalysis that they did not 176 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 5: ask for. So really is that education? And I think 177 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 5: you're doing a great job and helping us spread that wide. 178 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: Well. I really appreciate that. Now, Linda, how do we 179 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: start changing perception, moving people from surface level understanding to 180 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: a deeper, more accurate view so that real cultural change 181 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: can begin? 182 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 6: I would say too, there are so many facets of 183 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 6: things that we can do. So as an old undergraduate 184 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 6: anthropology major, I learned how hard it is and how 185 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 6: long a process it takes to change culture. For instance, 186 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 6: three years ago, I met through my book club with 187 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 6: a freelance writer, and we work together to get an 188 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 6: article put together on anasygnosia because that was one of 189 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 6: my primary advocacy goals because most people don't know what 190 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 6: that is. And we got a placement in People magazine, 191 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 6: which has eighty one million subscribers or viewers or readers, 192 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 6: and my friend Eric Smith and I Eric said sure, 193 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 6: I'll do it, and then I called doctor Amador and 194 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 6: so it featured Eric and doctor Amador talking about antisygnosia. 195 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 6: And so I feel like we educated a lot of 196 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 6: people in that one area. We need to keep doing 197 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 6: that because it's like a drop in the bucket. Every 198 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,199 Speaker 6: time something like that comes out, we have another movie 199 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 6: or whatever that demonizes people that have these illnesses and 200 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 6: make them sound like monsters, and you know, if you 201 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 6: have the illness, it's very stigmatizing. I don't usually use 202 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 6: that word because I find in these diseases discrimination is 203 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 6: more what it is. And people weren't seeing these folks 204 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 6: on the streets untreated. I do not think that they 205 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 6: would think that those people were, you know, bad, if 206 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 6: they understood, you know, that they're sick. And also time 207 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 6: they'll people will say, well, why the heck, don't they 208 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 6: get help because they can't. 209 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: When I first started doing this podcast around serious mental 210 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: health illness, I'll be honest, I didn't understand it at all. 211 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: My first reaction if someone did something wrong was simple, 212 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: put them in jail, threw away the key. Over the 213 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: past year, talking with people like all of you, hearing 214 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: real lived experiences, that perspective has changed. Now when something happens, 215 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: I find myself asking a different question. Is this a 216 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: bad person because there are bad people out there? Or 217 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: did the system fail them? And that leads me to this. 218 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: When we start to recognize that many of these situations 219 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 1: are actually systemic failures, how do we as a society 220 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: move from awareness to action. How do we collectively say 221 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: this is not working it needs to change. So how 222 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: do we actually start to make that change. 223 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 6: It's so complex and so siloed. If there was more 224 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 6: coordination between all the different agencies and people that service 225 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 6: people with these illnesses, and more accountability and outcome measures 226 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 6: that really show what is being successful. And by success 227 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 6: I mean getting people stable and in recovery and living 228 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 6: their best lives. That's my measurement of success. But a 229 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 6: lot of these programs and things that we have have 230 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 6: different success majors, measures that are not applicable to what 231 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 6: we want the outcomes to be. So that's one thing. 232 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes total sense. 233 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, So I think the other thing is it has 234 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 5: to be done at the state level because every state 235 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 5: varies in their laws, and that's something that we're trying 236 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 5: to do at NSSC is trying to establish presence in 237 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 5: each state. And I'll give you an example. In Alabama, 238 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 5: they connected that group is fairly new. I think we 239 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 5: had two members of Alabama. We now have over twenty five, 240 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 5: and they connected with the case where a woman was 241 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 5: trying to get her sonhow they were at the psychiatrist, 242 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 5: oiled for the person to be sectioned, called the police. 243 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 5: The police came. It was supposedly a cit officer came 244 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 5: and said, no, I'm not going to take him because 245 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 5: the hospital is just going to let him go. So 246 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 5: in the meantime, the mom was running, you know, from 247 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 5: county to county because her son had you know, crossed 248 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 5: county lines or whatever, and a life was taken. So 249 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 5: our state director reached out to this mom and now 250 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 5: they're holding our entire symposium on this. It's the first 251 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 5: time she's ever speaking about the incident since it happened, 252 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 5: and they're trying to have a law enacted as well 253 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 5: so that something like this never happens again. This is 254 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 5: a totally preventable tragedy. The psychiatrist wanted this patient committed, 255 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 5: but the police officer didn't think that he needed to be, 256 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 5: didn't take them and as a result, a life was taken. 257 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: That's said on so many levels now, Judge mac often 258 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: a perception that mental illness isn't a primary issue within 259 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: the court system. From your experience, is that really the case? 260 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: How are court's beginning to recognize and respond to it 261 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: as a central challenge. Do you see the courts starting 262 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: to prioritize it in terms of strategy and resources? 263 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 7: You know, I think it might be underestimating the public 264 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 7: interest in this area. A couple of years ago, the 265 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 7: Mission Spame Court decided to set up a strategic planning 266 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 7: process and in that process we did a survey of 267 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 7: our internal users, our external users and gave them twenty 268 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 7: problems and the eternal The external and internal users all 269 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 7: identified mental illness and substitutes as the number one issue 270 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 7: affecting the courts. So the Michigan Span Court. So okay, 271 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 7: our number one strategic priority for last year's behavioral health 272 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 7: We hired a behavior health administrator, which was one of 273 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 7: the recommendations of the National Task Force. And more states 274 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 7: are doing that now. I know Illinois. Did I assume 275 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 7: Arizona as I would have done on that one about California, 276 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 7: But I think there's a growing recognition. 277 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: As we move into legislation. One of the challenges we 278 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: keep hearing is bills can pass with overwhelming support in 279 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: one chamber and then stall or die in the other. 280 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 1: How do we fix that disconnect? How do we get 281 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 1: both sides House and Senate working together so when there's 282 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: clear broad support for something this important, it actually moves forward. 283 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 7: Well, you're not going to change that dynamic, but what 284 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 7: you can do is make sure that you are aligning. 285 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 7: You align yourself with the stakeholders that matter to each chamber. 286 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 7: In Michigan, they care, the House cares about the Chamber 287 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,479 Speaker 7: of Commerce, and you send it as more to other 288 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 7: other people like hospital and go for it so you 289 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 7: get them both on your side because you can. You know, 290 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 7: I've spoken to the Chamber and I said, this is 291 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 7: your interest to fix this problem because you're suffering from 292 00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 7: this problem just as much as anybody else. And you 293 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 7: get all these takeholders to understand what their stake is 294 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 7: and what they're missing out on and what damage they 295 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 7: incurred because the problem is not being solved. I mean, 296 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 7: in Michigan, what the sponsors of the bill in the 297 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 7: House was really the most conservative member of the House, 298 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 7: which is not my political leaning. On the set aside, 299 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,479 Speaker 7: we had a fairly liberal Democrat who's a sposor of 300 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 7: one of my bills. So that does mean there'll be 301 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 7: a little battle going on in the House and send 302 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 7: over it wh'll get credit for the bills. That's always 303 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 7: a tricky thing, but I think you build a coalition 304 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 7: and that's what can break down the barrier. 305 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 6: Also, I would add to Judge Max that you always 306 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 6: bring it down to how much money the legislator is 307 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 6: going to save his constituents are her constituents. And the 308 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 6: thing is that if you treat these diseases correctly up front, 309 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 6: you are going to save a ton of money, because 310 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 6: when you jail somebody, it costs so much per day, hospitalize, 311 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 6: et cetera. And I used to work for a US senator, 312 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 6: Believe me, money money talks. 313 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up saving money. We've 314 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: seen models like the one in Florida that invest in 315 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: treatment upfront and actually save millions on the back end 316 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: in jail, court and system costs. So if this ultimately 317 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 1: comes down to dollars, how do we effectively communicate to 318 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: lawmakers that's spending more on treatment now isn't just the 319 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: right thing to do, it's the financially smarter decision. 320 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 7: Well, when I'm testify in front of the House of 321 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 7: the Senate, I pointed out that are of the fifteen 322 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 7: thousand or nine thousand people who've been petitioned in Wayne County, 323 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 7: seventy six had at least ten petitions over five year period. 324 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 7: That are the highest users. In one year, these seventy 325 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 7: six people, we spent three point three million on hospitals 326 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 7: and one point six million on incarceration. Five million dollars 327 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 7: and for that we got nothing. 328 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 6: Wow. 329 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: Now, let's add another layer to this homelessness. We're seeing 330 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 1: many individuals with serious mental illness cycle from home to 331 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: hospital and then back onto the streets, often after just 332 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: a short stay, without the support they need. How do 333 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: we break that cycle? What needs to change so that 334 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: people don't keep falling through the cracks and ending up 335 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: back on the streets. 336 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 7: Well, we do know from the data that a good 337 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 7: AOT program will reduce homelessness. So that's been proven in 338 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 7: well Jesse County, Michigan. New York has that data, and 339 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 7: I think Ohio has that data as well, So we 340 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 7: know that if you have that kind of program you 341 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 7: can reduce homelessness. 342 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: That's definitely encouraging. So now we keep coming back to 343 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: this revolving door, people getting brief care then ending up 344 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 1: right back where they started. And part of that conversation 345 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: is AOT, which unfortunately not every state has fully embraced. Linda, 346 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on this, what's your perspective, What 347 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: role could AOT really play here? 348 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 6: Yes, because in our state they gave an option to 349 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 6: the counties to actually take up an AOT program, and 350 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 6: the counties that did take it up it has turned 351 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 6: out to be completely voluntary, which is worthless for the 352 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 6: targeted population, which is like just a small percentage of 353 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 6: the people who are the sickest. So you've got to 354 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 6: get these people in through another means, whether it be 355 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 6: a conservatorship, a guardianship. In some places it's called or 356 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 6: for what I call mandatory life saving treatment. I know 357 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 6: a lot of people call it coercive, but no, it's 358 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 6: actually life saving treatment because every day in psychosis is 359 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,959 Speaker 6: a matter of life and death. When you're out on 360 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 6: the street homeless. This is something that I don't really 361 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 6: think people understand as we were talking about that these 362 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 6: people aren't lazy, They're not just choosing homelessness. A lot 363 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 6: of people with serious diseases like this, they turn to 364 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 6: street drugs, they turn to alcohol to stop the voices, 365 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 6: to stop the hallucinations. So it's a co occurring. It 366 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 6: can be a co occurring thing. But yeah, you're not 367 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 6: going to get these people off the street unless you 368 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 6: basically it's mandatory. You say that's it, you need treatment, 369 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 6: We're going to get you off the street. We're going 370 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 6: to help you that sort of thing. 371 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,959 Speaker 1: Now, we keep hearing about how different states look at things. 372 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: What does Arizona look at it? From their standpoint? 373 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 2: In Arizona, we have different populations that I look at. 374 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 2: So we have individuals that are developmentally disabled, individuals that 375 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 2: have Alzheimer's, or elderly population that require like nursing home 376 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 2: type care or assisted living in some fashion. And then 377 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: we have the seriously mentally ill. So we have three 378 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,400 Speaker 2: different populations. And one of the things that we've noticed 379 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 2: is that in the two populations of the developmentally disabled 380 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 2: like autism, and the population of those that have let's 381 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 2: say Alzheimer's disease, we can get federal dollars. There's a 382 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 2: more inclusive program for those two populations. And with the 383 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 2: seriously mentally ill, we have what's called that IMD exclusion, 384 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 2: which keeps us from being being able to get federal 385 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 2: dollars to support this disabled population in housing who need 386 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 2: extra supports. They aren't capable of housing themselves and feeding 387 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 2: themselves and all these things without a layer of support 388 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 2: with them. And so one of the things we could 389 00:23:54,760 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 2: do federally is reverse the IMD exclusions so faderal dollars 390 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 2: can come in to do more wrap around services for 391 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 2: the sickest of our members of our society that really 392 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 2: required long term care. 393 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 6: And this IMD thing that Crystal's talking about, this is 394 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 6: one of the most discriminatory laws against the populations we're 395 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 6: fighting for ever. It was put into the Medicare and 396 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 6: Medicaid Act of nineteen sixty three or somewhere around there, 397 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 6: and it limits the number of beds that AIMD, which 398 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 6: is helped me out here, guys, institution of mental diseases 399 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 6: can have to service people from twenty one to sixty 400 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 6: four to sixteen beds. Sixteen beds, and we don't limit 401 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 6: beds in any other hospital treating anybody else. The whole 402 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 6: purpose of it was to keep people from building new asylums. 403 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 6: What it's done is locked out people from getting the 404 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 6: treatment they need. And it's not fair, it's not right. 405 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 6: And I have heard in California of places that actually 406 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,959 Speaker 6: build two facilities on their property of sixteen beds and 407 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 6: sixteen beds. So it takes the construction costs and basically 408 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 6: makes it much more expensive because you can have what 409 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 6: is it called when construction is done in a more 410 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 6: efficient way. 411 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 8: I can't think economies of economies of. 412 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 6: Skin, Yes, economies of scale thanks reach. 413 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 8: So the other problem is that it doesn't even just 414 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 8: extend to the number of beds in a facility. It 415 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 8: goes all the way down to the level of institutional care, 416 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 8: and so that includes things like assisted living. That is 417 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 8: actually the bigger damage that's being done. So there is 418 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 8: no long term care. There are no We don't have 419 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 8: Alzheimer's board equivalents, we don't have group home equivalents funded 420 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 8: by Medicaid dollars. It's really the home and community based 421 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 8: services and long term care, not even just the hospital stay. 422 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 8: It's all forms of institution, even locked, unlocked group homes 423 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 8: that cannot get federal dollars because of the home and 424 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 8: community based carve outs that happened to developmental disabilities and 425 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 8: elderly and physical disabled but did not get given to 426 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 8: serious mental illness. 427 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: We're going to pause right here at the end of 428 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: Part two, but this conversation is far from over. We've 429 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: covered a lot of ground, and in our final episode 430 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: we're going to bring it all together, focusing on solutions, 431 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: where we can go from here and what real change 432 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: can look like. So join us in just two days 433 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 1: for Part three, the final chapter of this series. You 434 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 1: won't want to miss. A big thank you to our 435 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: guests for sharing their journey. If today's conversation helped you 436 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: see the world a little differently, then we're doing exactly 437 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 1: what we hope to do. Until next time, keep believing, 438 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: keep learning, and most importantly, keep asking yourself why Not Me? 439 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to 440 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: listen to our show today. We hope you enjoyed it 441 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. If 442 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: you know someone who has a story to share, tell 443 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: them to contact us at whyomt World. One last thing, 444 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 1: spread the word about why Not Me, our conversations, our 445 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: inspiring guests, the show. You are not alone in this world.