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Speaker 1: Trust me.

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Speaker 2: Trust me.

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Speaker 1: I'm like a swat person. I've never lived.

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Speaker 2: To you.

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Speaker 3: If you think that one person has all the answers, don't.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cult, extreme belief,

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Speaker 2: and the abuse of power from two Homo sapiens who've

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Speaker 2: actually experienced it. I am low lablanc.

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Speaker 3: And I am Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: Today for our holiday episode, our guest is someone who

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Speaker 2: never got to celebrate holidays growing up. His name is

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Speaker 2: Fifth rapper and activist, also known as Cliff Henderson. He's

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Speaker 2: a former devout Jehovah's Witness who lost his faith in

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Speaker 2: his twenties, was disfellowship from the church and was completely

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Speaker 2: cut off from his family and everybody he knew as

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Speaker 2: a result. So we're going to talk about that, and

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about some of the more harmful

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Speaker 2: Jehovah's Witness beliefs and policies, including ones that have put

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Speaker 2: people's lives in danger.

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Speaker 3: And then we're also going to talk about how he

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Speaker 3: uses his music to express some of the emotions that

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Speaker 3: he has about all that has happened to him.

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Speaker 2: And we're going to play one of his songs at

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Speaker 2: the end of the episode. So stay tuned.

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Speaker 3: Whoop boo, you have to take out me doing that.

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Speaker 2: Leaving it in a Hey Megan, Yeah, it's the holidays.

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Speaker 2: Do you have anything, culty that happened to you this week?

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Speaker 3: So it didn't happen to me directly, but it happened

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Speaker 3: to my friend. Okay. So she lives across from the

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Speaker 3: Scientology Center on Franklin, right, yeah, so she can see

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Speaker 3: into those windows sometimes like.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, yeah, okay, beautiful building by the way.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah. When I first moved to La, I tried

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Speaker 3: to move into it. I was like, how do I

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Speaker 3: look in here? They're like you joked. So there's a guy, ironically,

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Speaker 3: I do think his name might be Cliff, but he

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Speaker 3: rides a little bicycle around the outside to just keep

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Speaker 3: an eye on it, right, he's a scientologist. The other day,

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Speaker 3: she was outside and she saw him up in a

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Speaker 3: room like yelling at somebody in the most terrifying way,

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Speaker 3: and she could not understand what was happening. So then

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Speaker 3: she met up with him when she was going to

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Speaker 3: her car later that night, and she asked him what

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Speaker 3: was happening and he was like, oh, I was practicing

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Speaker 3: a scene for acting.

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Speaker 2: Do we think that that's the truth. That's probably true.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's definitely yeah, the truth. And she was like,

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Speaker 3: oh okay, like she thought that he was like trying

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Speaker 3: to get out or you know.

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Speaker 2: You know who can relate to this experience is my dog.

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Speaker 2: Whenever I have a scene that I'm practicing, I must

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Speaker 2: be a really good actor, because.

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Speaker 3: He is convinced.

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Speaker 2: He's so scared if I'm yelling. If I'm acting yelling,

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Speaker 2: he will freak out. He thinks he's in trouble. And

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Speaker 2: I have to be like, no, no, no, I'm acting Rambo.

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Speaker 2: I'm acting.

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Speaker 3: Oh she could relate to Rambo.

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Speaker 2: I'll tell her their buildings really are so beautiful. I

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Speaker 2: wish I could live.

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Speaker 3: In him, I really do. I wish the price for

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Speaker 3: living there wasn't your eternal soul and income? However I did.

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Speaker 3: I mean this also could have been an acting exercise.

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Speaker 3: Who knows. But like ten years ago, I drove past

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Speaker 3: the all white one. I don't even remember where it is.

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Speaker 3: I just remember it was all white and there was

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Speaker 3: some girl running down the side stairs like screaming, what yeah.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, yeah, did you call the police?

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Speaker 3: I think so. I cannot remember, but I wouldn't have

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Speaker 3: left a woman screaming on the side of the road.

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Speaker 3: So something concluded, But I don't remember what it was.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's insane. I'm dying to know what happened.

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Speaker 3: I saved her life. I saved her life. I know

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Speaker 3: that much.

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Speaker 2: One day I'll talk about the time I went to

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Speaker 2: the Scientology Center. Oh, I mean, should it be today?

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Speaker 3: I mean, that could be your cultiest thing of the week.

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Speaker 3: Why not?

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Speaker 2: Although it was years ago, definitely was not this week.

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Speaker 2: That's fine, all right. Well, I'm just gonna make a

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Speaker 2: quick statement here and say that I'm a member of

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Speaker 2: the Cult of Christmas and I am proud of it.

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Speaker 2: Santa Is, Mike God, I will do anything to make

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Speaker 2: Christmas the festive experience it deserves to be. That's beautiful,

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Speaker 2: thank you. So a few years not even a few

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Speaker 2: years ago, this is probably seven years ago at this point. Fuck,

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Speaker 2: I went on a Valentine's Day date with a man

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Speaker 2: and we decided it would be fun to go to

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Speaker 2: the Scientology Center and get the stress tests because we

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Speaker 2: wanted to know what the recruiting tactics were like and

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Speaker 2: if there would be any part of us that you

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Speaker 2: felt enticed. So we went, we did the whole thing.

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Speaker 2: We did the personality tests, we did the IQ tests,

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Speaker 2: and the IQ test was fascinating because it was a

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Speaker 2: lot of questions that didn't have objective answers. It was

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Speaker 2: more like getting your perspective on something. But they presented

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Speaker 2: it as an intelligence thing. But it was not like

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Speaker 2: any IQ test I've ever taken. But the intelligence tests

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Speaker 2: at the end they told us that we were both

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Speaker 2: like off the charts smart, right. The personality test told us, well,

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Speaker 2: actually they separated us. So he got this like very

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Speaker 2: experienced woman and I got this like new bee like

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Speaker 2: young guy. And the new bee young guy was not

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Speaker 2: that good at his sales tactics yet, so he didn't

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Speaker 2: do any damage. But the dude I was seeing got

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Speaker 2: this like really experienced woman. And our results were slightly different,

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Speaker 2: but basically both of our results said we were in

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Speaker 2: severe danger, oh my gosh, because of how anxious or

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Speaker 2: depressed we were. In his case it was depression. It

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Speaker 2: was like off the charts, and in my case it

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Speaker 2: was more anxiety. But both of them separately told us

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Speaker 2: that if we didn't get help for this problem that

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Speaker 2: we have, then we are like at risk. Now keep

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Speaker 2: in mind, the guy I was with, his mom had

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Speaker 2: suffered from severe mental health issues, and so he had

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Speaker 2: always had this fear that he would also develop the

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Speaker 2: same issues. So this woman tells him this, she like

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Speaker 2: senses that she's onto something with it, and she keeps

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Speaker 2: going and take going dark like deeper down this road.

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Speaker 2: And he afterward was like, dude, she like almost got

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Speaker 2: me because she it seemed like she knew exactly the thing.

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Speaker 2: Whereas my guy, Oh, he basically started by telling me

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Speaker 2: that my flaw that I have is that I don't

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Speaker 2: like stand up for myself and I don't like speak

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Speaker 2: speak up. And I was like, nope, that's wrong. Literally

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Speaker 2: the opposite. People think I'm confrontational, like not a thing.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: And so he switched it and he was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: what I meant was you're too confrontational, you know, and

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Speaker 2: like tried to twist it. Basically, they tried to find

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Speaker 2: a way to manipulate you into thinking you're so smart,

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Speaker 2: right and you're so amazing, but you're broken and without

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Speaker 2: them to fix the brokenness, then your smartness is wasted

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Speaker 2: and you're in danger, right committing suicide.

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Speaker 3: You're in danger, girl.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, we gave them fake names and got out of

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Speaker 2: there after three hours and went to Olive Garden.

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Speaker 3: Wow, what a day.

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Speaker 2: It was a pretty good date. Yeah, connected to him.

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Speaker 2: I really liked that guy.

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Speaker 3: He's dead now, I'm just kidding.

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Speaker 2: He ghosted me.

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Speaker 3: He joined Scientology, all right, Well Cliff, Nope, I thought

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Speaker 3: I got a segway.

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Speaker 2: Cliff was on the Lea Remedy Show. Oh my god

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Speaker 2: when they did an episode about Scientology Jehovah's Witnesses. Sorry,

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Speaker 2: when they did an episode about Java's Witnesses. God, damn it.

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Speaker 2: The thing is about Scientology. Lola, Cliff is a former witness.

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Speaker 2: Let's hear from him now.

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Speaker 3: Well, oh God, take that one up too.

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Speaker 2: Hello, fifth, welcome to the show. I'm so happy to

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Speaker 2: see you again.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 4: Yes, likewise, pleasure to see you again, Lola, and very

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Speaker 4: nice to meet you, Megan.

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Speaker 3: Nice to meet you too. Cliff.

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Speaker 2: Cliff and I met just before Lockdown. We had a

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Speaker 2: bit of a like an ex believer dinner with Steve Hassen,

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Speaker 2: who is kind enough to introduce us. And yeah, I'm

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Speaker 2: so excited to hear your story because I've never actually

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Speaker 2: gotten to hear your whole story. I've watched your music videos,

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Speaker 2: which I love.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Can you start us at the beginning and what your

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Speaker 2: childhood was like and what the belief system was like.

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Speaker 4: Sure, so I was born and raised into a family

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Speaker 4: of very devout Jehovah's witnesses, and I guess, going back

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Speaker 4: just slightly, even before my birth, my mother became a

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Speaker 4: Jehovah's witness when she was only seven, and then my

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Speaker 4: father when he was only seventeen. And I'm the fourth

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Speaker 4: child from that marriage. So obviously, you know, my three

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Speaker 4: older sisters they were all you know, born and raised

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Speaker 4: into it, and then me and then I have a

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Speaker 4: younger brother as well, so we were very like our

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Speaker 4: entire family was very devout. We would have been considered

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Speaker 4: what they would have called exemplary, like a family that

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Speaker 4: is setting the example for other families. You know, we

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Speaker 4: would be when they would have the large assemblies or

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Speaker 4: conventions of you know, the larger like annual or annual

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Speaker 4: meetings of Jehovah's witnesses, we would be one of the

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Speaker 4: ones they would parade on the stage and looked at

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Speaker 4: how great this family is doing it this. You know,

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Speaker 4: this member of the family has traveled to this country

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Speaker 4: to spread the message, and this person is learning another language,

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Speaker 4: and you know, so that's that's what I was kind

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Speaker 4: of raised on. So one thing that I like to

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Speaker 4: explain to people has to do with baptism, you know,

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Speaker 4: as it concerns Jehovah's Witnesses. So a lot of people

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Speaker 4: are familiar with the process or the practice of baptising,

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Speaker 4: baptizing rather in a you know, Christian religion or anything

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Speaker 4: like that. I would say the difference with Jehovah's Witnesses

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Speaker 4: is before you're allowed to get baptized, you have to

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Speaker 4: kind of pass a test of sorts. And so there

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Speaker 4: are three elders who are the leaders of any given

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Speaker 4: congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. You meet with three different elders

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Speaker 4: on three separate occasions, and you go over these questions,

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Speaker 4: and then those three elders confer and they determine if

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Speaker 4: you basically pass, and if you pass, then you, you know,

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Speaker 4: get baptized at the next large meeting of Jehovah's Witnesses.

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Speaker 4: But the thing about that baptism is that it links

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Speaker 4: you directly to the Jehovah's witness organization. One of the

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Speaker 4: questions that they ask before you actually get baptized is

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Speaker 4: something to the effect of, do you understand that your

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Speaker 4: baptism identifies.

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Speaker 1: You as one of Jehovah's witnesses.

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Speaker 4: So that's why whatever age you get baptized, you're linking yourself,

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Speaker 4: you're marrying yourself to the religion. So if at any

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Speaker 4: point you reneg or you come into some different information

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Speaker 4: and realize that this is you know, the decision I

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Speaker 4: made when I was seven wasn't the right decision, you

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Speaker 4: know now that I'm thirty, There's consequences, and the consequences

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Speaker 4: are being cut off and shunned, you know, ultimately from

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Speaker 4: everybody you probably ever knew, because for the most part,

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Speaker 4: as one of Jehovah's witnesses, you're highly discouraged from having

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Speaker 4: close relationships with people who are not Jehovah's witnesses. So

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Speaker 4: if you ever are cut off, especially as an adult,

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Speaker 4: you're basically starting over. You know, your your parents, your siblings,

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Speaker 4: everybody is kind of is kind of starting over.

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Speaker 3: Can I ask a quick question on that club, So

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Speaker 3: if you didn't get baptized, what if from when the

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Speaker 3: time you were little, you were just like, I don't

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Speaker 3: like it. I'm not gonna do it. Then does your

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Speaker 3: family accept.

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Speaker 1: That they wouldn't They don't have to shun you.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's crazy, okay.

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Speaker 4: Right, it's all very technical. So like, for example, I

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Speaker 4: have an uncle, my dad's brother. He never got baptized.

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Speaker 4: He you know, they were kind of raised in it

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Speaker 4: more or less, and my dad was always telling them, Hey,

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Speaker 4: you know, get baptized.

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Speaker 1: It's the truth. He's like, yeah, nah, I'm good. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna just do whatever.

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Speaker 4: He ended up at one point being a Muslim and

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Speaker 4: another point, you know, joining another like Christian denomination.

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Speaker 1: And him and my dad have a relationship.

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Speaker 4: But I don't have a relationship with my dad because

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Speaker 4: I actually did get baptized. It's like, when you look

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Speaker 4: at it from you know, from the outside, it's pretty

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Speaker 4: it's pretty crazy. Just based on a technical it doesn't

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Speaker 4: really it doesn't matter what this other person's life course

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Speaker 4: has been if it.

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Speaker 1: Coincides with what it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 4: The thing is baptism, right, And that's why in my

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Speaker 4: music video, I represent the baptism of Jehovah's witnesses not

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Speaker 4: as a baptism, but as a contract, because I think

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Speaker 4: that more accurately describes what it actually is.

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Speaker 2: Oh interesting, I was wondering about that. So is the

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Speaker 2: age of seven. That's when children are determined to be

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Speaker 2: of age to decide.

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Speaker 1: So it varies.

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Speaker 4: I usually say that when somebody, you know, according to

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Speaker 4: my experience, and I think a lot of other Jehovah's witnesses,

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Speaker 4: especially that were raised, born and raised as Jehovah's witnesses,

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Speaker 4: you might find the average age of baptism somewhere between

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Speaker 4: like twelve and fifteen. Okay, But you will also hear like,

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Speaker 4: so I was baptized at nine, so that's considered kind

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Speaker 4: of early.

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Speaker 1: My mother was baptized at seven. That's considered really early.

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Speaker 2: Gotcha.

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Speaker 4: And you know, you'll hear of people or you'll know

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Speaker 4: of people that were baptized as early as five years old.

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Speaker 4: You know, that's the earliest that I've For my brother,

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Speaker 4: he didn't get baptized until he was sixteen, my younger brother,

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Speaker 4: but you know, he was getting crazy looks for years

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Speaker 4: because it's like, what.

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Speaker 1: Are you doing? There's definitely pressure you know, on your

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Speaker 1: do that you know as early as possible.

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Speaker 2: Right, That's interesting. And Mormonism, it's the age of eight.

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Speaker 2: Apparently the age of eight is when you have an

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Speaker 2: adult brain enough to make the decision for your eternal future.

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Speaker 1: He should be criminal in my opinion.

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Speaker 2: So you were you a fervent believer when you were

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Speaker 2: a kid?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you know, it was the only thing that

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Speaker 4: I knew. And like I said, when you're not, my

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Speaker 4: interaction with the outside world was, you know, school. But

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Speaker 4: even in school, there's a definite separation between you and

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Speaker 4: your and your classmates, and you understand that from a

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Speaker 4: very early age. I'll take a very simple example, such

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Speaker 4: as saluting the flag Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah's witness children are

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Speaker 4: taught that they're supposed to take a stand and not

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Speaker 4: They don't put their hand over their heart because you

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Speaker 4: can't plan you pledge your allegiance to any nation, because

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Speaker 4: your allegiance is to God's Kingdom is how they word it.

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Speaker 4: But it's you know, it's Jehovah's Witnesses essentially, or the

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Speaker 4: Watchtower organization, but they say it's God and God's Kingdom's

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Speaker 4: drilled into your head from a very early age through

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Speaker 4: their publications or the meetings or whatever. I'll give you

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Speaker 4: an example of like a typical conversation. Let's say between

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Speaker 4: Jehovah's Witness child who's around some Jehovah's Witness adults, He

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Speaker 4: or she will say something like, oh yeah, my friend

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Speaker 4: is school and they'll be like, your friend is your friend.

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Speaker 1: Of Jehovah's Witness. Oh okay, no, that's just your classmate.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: That's just so it's you're taught that very early. Your

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Speaker 4: friends are in the Kingdom Hall. They're the ones that

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Speaker 4: are at the you know, that are attending the religious services.

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Speaker 4: The people you go to school with are just kids

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Speaker 4: at school, and if anything, you probably need to have

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Speaker 4: your guard up because they're under Satan's control.

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Speaker 1: Even if it's unwittingly, they can corrupt you.

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Speaker 3: Were there any other Jehovah's Witness children at your school, yes.

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Speaker 4: There would be, you know, some few and far between.

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Speaker 4: But it's not like it was like a convenient like okay,

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Speaker 4: they're Jehovah's because if you think about kids in general,

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Speaker 4: they get into these groups, you know, based on whatever

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Speaker 4: it is right, these common interests, and sometimes those other

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Speaker 4: two or three kids that are Jehovah's witnesses that you're

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Speaker 4: at school, you don't have anything in common with them,

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Speaker 4: and sometimes it could just be a very lonely experience

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Speaker 4: where you're like, Okay, well, you know, I'm kind of

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Speaker 4: hanging around these kids, but I can't really make any

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Speaker 4: you know, stronger relationships. But yeah, for the most part,

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Speaker 4: there wasn't any like close bonds or close relationships with them.

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Speaker 2: And did you feel weird about that, the fact that

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Speaker 2: you couldn't call them you weren't supposed to call them

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Speaker 2: your friends?

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Speaker 1: Did I feel I'm not sure if I felt weird.

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Speaker 4: I think it just was one of those things that Okay,

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Speaker 4: that's just how it is, you know. I didn't know

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Speaker 4: anything else, So it wasn't like, well, why are these

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Speaker 4: why can't I call them my friends? It was just

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Speaker 4: kind of like, no, it's this us against them mentality,

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Speaker 4: and that's just how you're raised, and you know, kind

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Speaker 4: of just to take it a step further. What's what's

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Speaker 4: interesting growing up is one of Jehovah's witnesses, what I

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Speaker 4: experienced is, you know, there will be things that you

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Speaker 4: know are off limits for you at school, such as,

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Speaker 4: like I said, the holidays and all that kind of stuff,

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Speaker 4: But then there will be things that later you'll find

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Speaker 4: out are also off limits, and you've already kind of send,

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Speaker 4: you know, before you even realize it. I give this example.

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Speaker 4: I was on the Lea Remedy Scientology in the Aftermath

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Speaker 4: special when they deviated from the subject of scientology for

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Speaker 4: one episode and talked about Jehovah's witnesses. And one story

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Speaker 4: that I told there is I won class president when

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Speaker 4: I was in the third grade.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I went.

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Speaker 4: Home and I told my hey, I won class president.

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Speaker 4: And then it's like, oh, man, son, that's not okay.

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Speaker 4: Because of their views on politics, even childhood politics. They

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Speaker 4: profess to be politically neutral. You know, you're not even

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Speaker 4: supposed to feel support for a certain candidate or a

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Speaker 4: certain party or anything. And politics at any level is

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Speaker 4: a no no because again the way that they explained

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Speaker 4: it is you're supposed to be supporting God's government. So

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Speaker 4: even as a third grader, you know, coming home, my

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Speaker 4: feeling wasn't so much like man, that's that's weak, like.

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Speaker 1: We can't do anything. It was more like, oh, man,

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Speaker 1: I messed up, you know, like God is going to

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Speaker 1: be upset with me. I didn't. I didn't know, Like

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Speaker 1: I really didn't know.

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Speaker 4: Right, And there were there will be things like that

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Speaker 4: that would come up that you really had no way

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Speaker 4: of knowing.

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Speaker 1: Until you found out.

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Speaker 4: And so it was kind of always this process of

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Speaker 4: second guessing yourself and assuming that your first instinct is

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Speaker 4: wrong in wicked you know that that's kind of that's

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Speaker 4: kind of what I grew up on.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I understand. That makes me so sad. You have

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Speaker 2: this great accomplishment and then you had to feel guilty

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Speaker 2: about it, right, And.

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Speaker 4: Then the next day I had to tell the teacher

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Speaker 4: and the runner up won, and I'm thinking, okay, well

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Speaker 4: I was. I did something faithful, you know, like I

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Speaker 4: took a stand even though I didn't know I supposed

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Speaker 4: to whatever.

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Speaker 2: Gold So oh, okay, I know. I know my best friend. Well,

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Speaker 2: I have two people that I call my best friends.

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Speaker 2: One's a boy and one's a girl. Okay, and one

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Speaker 2: was isn't And the boy is an ex to hope

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Speaker 2: his witness and the girl is an ex orthodox Jew.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: It's funny how we kind of just like are drawn

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Speaker 2: to each other somehow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But so my boy best friend Travis, I remember him

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Speaker 2: telling me stories of like, oh, he was really good

380
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Speaker 2: at soccer, and then was informed that soccer was a

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Speaker 2: sin and he had to leave to quit the soccer team.

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Speaker 2: His dad has stayed at the same position at his

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Speaker 2: job for years and years and years, even though he's

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Speaker 2: been offered promotions, because to move up would be a

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Speaker 2: distraction from God. I mean, it seems like there's is

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Speaker 2: just really discouraging any like anything that brings you joy,

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Speaker 2: and me like.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, anything that brings you joy that doesn't also you know,

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Speaker 4: further the interests of the of the organization absolutely right.

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Speaker 2: So Jehoa's witnesses don't celebrate holidays, no Christmas, no birthdays,

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Speaker 2: no Halloween. What was that like in school and like

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Speaker 2: seeing Christmas being celebrated all around you, Like, did you

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Speaker 2: ever have any feelings about it?

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Speaker 4: I think you just kind of taught to believe that

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Speaker 4: it's that these kids are are kind of unknowingly doing

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Speaker 4: something wrong, Like Satan is all.

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Speaker 1: Involved in all of those holidays. That's kind of the idea.

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Speaker 4: So you're kind of I think the way that I

399
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Speaker 4: felt about it, like I said, it was just a

400
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Speaker 4: very us against them type of mentality, just trying to

401
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Speaker 4: make sure I didn't mess up, you know.

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Speaker 1: I was just kind of always kind of thinking like

403
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Speaker 1: that kind of.

404
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Speaker 4: A thought that you're taught to have is well, I

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Speaker 4: don't need a specific day like Christmas or birthdays because

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Speaker 4: my parents just randomly get me stuff throughout the year.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of the that's kind of the talking point.

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Speaker 4: And I guess it depends on their financial situation if

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Speaker 4: that's actually.

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Speaker 1: True or not.

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Speaker 4: But you know, my parents did, Like I remember when

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Speaker 4: my dad bought me a Sega Genesis and then a

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Speaker 4: sa Good Dreamcast.

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Speaker 1: So it would just be random. It would just be

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Speaker 1: like these random times if you get it.

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Speaker 4: And so that that's kind of where it was, like, Okay,

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Speaker 4: well it's not like gifts are off limits. It's just

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Speaker 4: for you know, for these particular purposes, you know. Or

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Speaker 4: like for example, if it was Thanksgiving because turkeys were

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Speaker 4: on sale, my mom woul usually buy a whole bunch

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Speaker 4: of turkeys, but we just wouldn't eat it on Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: It's just like this is just for you know, this

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Speaker 4: is just economical, like this is not you know, so

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Speaker 4: it's like there's always like little things like that, you know,

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Speaker 4: can I have some candy?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 4: Is it is it going? Is it filtered through this

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Speaker 4: false religious holiday?

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Speaker 1: Okay?

431
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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: Then okay, then I can have some candy.

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Speaker 3: Right, well, Lola kind of to kind of to what

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Speaker 3: Lola was saying. I was also raised where we couldn't

435
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Speaker 3: celebrate holidays, and people are always like, oh my gosh,

436
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Speaker 3: you didn't cele great Christmas, And I'm like, did you

437
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Speaker 3: not hear the part where I didn't have a TV

438
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 3: and I had to wear like long skirts and all

439
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,200
Speaker 3: that stuff. It's just always interesting to me how much

440
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:14,359
Speaker 3: Christmas means to people and how that's the most like

441
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:15,880
Speaker 3: crazy thing for them.

442
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, yeah, like I wouldn't say.

443
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 4: Growing up, I thought like, oh man, I really wish

444
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:22,240
Speaker 4: I could celebrate Christmas.

445
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:22,639
Speaker 1: You know you do.

446
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 4: You don't really have a notion of it. It's just

447
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 4: not even to this day. I don't have anything against Christmas,

448
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 4: but it doesn't really mean anything.

449
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,360
Speaker 3: I don't know how to pretend to care.

450
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,600
Speaker 2: I was hoping that both of that, you guys would

451
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 2: be like, I love Christmas now as a means of

452
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,439
Speaker 2: rebelling against my child and no Christmas spirit.

453
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I I'll do it if that's what everybody's doing.

454
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 4: Like I said, I don't have like an opinion a

455
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,960
Speaker 4: strong opinion one way or the other, but even when

456
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 4: my birthday comes or whatever.

457
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 1: Now, been celebrating it for the last like four years.

458
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,520
Speaker 4: You know, as an adult, and like sometimes it sneaks

459
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 4: up on me and I don't I don't even notice.

460
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 1: When's birthday November eighteen. I'm a scorpio. I just found

461
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:02,680
Speaker 1: that out too, because that's also against the rules.

462
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 2: Wow, happy belated birthday.

463
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you, thank you very much.

464
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 2: Mine's tomorrow actually really well happy.

465
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 1: What's the opposite of belated early.

466
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 4: Okay, a happy early birthday?

467
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:20,919
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you? So what us explain the the

468
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,199
Speaker 2: people who come to your door and give you pamphlets

469
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 2: like what's that stuff about?

470
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 4: So basically every Jehovah's witness even to be counted among

471
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 4: the ranks, like literally they you know, send out the

472
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 4: statistics of Jehovah's witnesses. And the only people who are

473
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 4: counted in that in that number are people who do

474
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 4: the evangelizing. Basically, what you're doing is you're going out

475
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,679
Speaker 4: and you're trying to you're trying to convert.

476
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 1: They would never use that term.

477
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 4: Because they just say that we're just trying to share

478
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,119
Speaker 4: the Bible, you know, they water it down, especially when

479
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,199
Speaker 4: they're talking to the public because they don't want to

480
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,919
Speaker 4: scare people. But ultimately they're going and they're trying to

481
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 4: convert people from whatever belief system that they have, because

482
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 4: any least system that you have that's not Jehovah's Witnesses

483
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 4: is wrong and you're siding with Satan. So it could

484
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 4: be you could be an atheist, you could be a Satan worshiper,

485
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,959
Speaker 4: you could be a Christian, it doesn't matter. Like, if

486
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,360
Speaker 4: you're not a Jehovah's witness you're on the wrong side.

487
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 4: You're taught to start doing it from a very early age.

488
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 4: You're taught to overcome objections like there are in the

489
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 4: meetings that Jehovah's Witnesses have. They kind of teach them.

490
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 4: You know, hey, if somebody says I'm not interested, you

491
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,959
Speaker 4: can say, well, what is it that you're not interested in?

492
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 4: Or have you always felt that way or whatever? Right,

493
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 4: it's like salesman training, but you know, but really what

494
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 4: you're you're selling is religion, you know, and conversion, and yeah,

495
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 4: that's basically what it's all about.

496
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 2: So one hundred forty four thousand, one hundred forty four

497
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 2: thousand people only aren't getting into heaven is that the deal.

498
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 1: Yes, So let me say this first.

499
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,680
Speaker 4: The numbers that Jehovah's Witnesses have been reporting for the

500
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:58,360
Speaker 4: last several years is around eight million worldwide members, right,

501
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 4: So so a lot of people think, well, eight million,

502
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 4: one hundred and forty four thousand, right, obviously doesn't add up.

503
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 4: But the way that they do it is one hundred

504
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 4: and forty four thousand people from I believe it since

505
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 4: Jesus from that time to now, or up until the

506
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 4: end of up until arm Again, let's say there's going

507
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 4: to be one hundred and forty four thousand total, right,

508
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 4: So many of them have already died, and so now

509
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 4: they have a way of keeping track of people who

510
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 4: feel like they're part of that group. At one point

511
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 4: they were sending in those numbers too, like, oh, it's

512
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 4: eight thousand, and then you would see next year it's seven,

513
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 4: nine hundred and ninety eight, like, oh, two of them died,

514
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 4: We're getting closer.

515
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: You know.

516
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 4: There was that whole thing going on, and then the

517
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 4: numbers started going up and they stop, you know, promoting

518
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:42,360
Speaker 4: that as much.

519
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: Wow.

520
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 2: So there are millions of people who are Jehovah's witnesses today,

521
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 2: who are not according to this theology, they're not going

522
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 2: to make it.

523
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 4: They're not going to make it to heaven because with

524
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 4: Jehovah's witnesses, heaven is not really the selling point. As

525
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 4: you can imagine, it would have to not be.

526
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 1: Number I was.

527
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 4: Interestingly, as you can imagine, that's been a result of

528
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 4: just the course of time, because there was a time,

529
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 4: as you can imagine, where it's like, hey, there's only

530
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 4: a few of us, you know, we're all trying to

531
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 4: go to Heaven, right, and then at a certain point

532
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 4: it gets to certain numbers.

533
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 1: Like there's actually a second group. There's a second group.

534
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 4: They're not going to heaven, but they're gonna be living

535
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 4: on a paradise earth.

536
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 3: Okay, that's fine.

537
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you know, the pictures of pandas and

538
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 4: petting tigers and all that kind of stuff, you know,

539
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 4: get me into that kind of thing. But no, So

540
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 4: basically heaven is kind of just it's just one of

541
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 4: those things that you know that there are a few

542
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 4: people that have been called to go to heaven, but

543
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 4: you don't have any aspirations or desire to go to

544
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 4: heaven as a Jehovah's witness, your desire is to live

545
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 4: forever on a paradise earth, because that's what God supposedly

546
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 4: has promised to the vast majority of humankind, right with

547
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 4: the exception of the one hundred and forty four thousand

548
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 4: throughout the course history and a few today, there.

549
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 2: Are so many similarities to Mormonism. I feel like the

550
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 2: most comparable to Mormonism, I would think it seems like

551
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 2: Jovas winnis, there are tiers of heaven and Mormonism, and

552
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 2: there's like the tier that everyone goes to. Then there's

553
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 2: the top tier that like the really really good people

554
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 2: go to, and then there's a top tier within the

555
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 2: top tier that like the best people go to.

556
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 3: So was there a hell for either of those religions?

557
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,919
Speaker 4: So for Jehovah's witnesses, there's no hell fire, there's no

558
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 4: like place of fiery torment in their theology. In their theology,

559
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 4: the consequences of not being on the right side is

560
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 4: just death, just eternal destruction. So there is no like place.

561
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 3: How do they go about explaining that? Like, how is

562
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 3: that jump made? With all the scripture referring to hell,

563
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 3: fires and damnation and such.

564
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 1: How can I ask it is?

565
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 4: I think you can do whatever you want with the scriptures.

566
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 4: That's my personal opinion. Every scripture can be explained once

567
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 4: you buy into the fact that these are the only

568
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 4: people who can accurately interpret the Bible.

569
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: Whatever they say, go wow.

570
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 2: Wow, what made you begin to question?

571
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 1: All Right?

572
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 4: So I still, after almost five years, I haven't figured

573
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 4: out a succinct way to answer this question. But I'm

574
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 4: gonna try. Every interview I do, I try a little

575
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 4: bit harder, I think a little bit more concise. So

576
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 4: basically what happened with me is, you know, over the years,

577
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 4: there were always things that just, you know, seemed maybe

578
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 4: kind of odd to me or whatever.

579
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 1: But you're taught to just push.

580
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 4: Down all of those doubts. It all comes from Satan,

581
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 4: you know. Don't try to be too smart. Basically, don't

582
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 4: let your you know, you thinking your wise cause you

583
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 4: to be destroyed. Basically, right, stay humble, and staying humble

584
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 4: just basically means going along with what they say. You

585
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 4: can question in terms of researching within their publications if

586
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 4: you have questions on a certain theology. But if you

587
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 4: get to a point within their publications where the answer

588
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 4: still not satisfactory, then you just have to wait on

589
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 4: Jehovah as the term they use. You just wait and

590
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 4: you just you know, if it needs to be clarified

591
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 4: in the future, Jehovah will clarify it in the future

592
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 4: kind of thing. Right, So, and then after a while,

593
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 4: it just starts to accumulate. And that's what happened with me.

594
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 4: It just started to accumulate, and I got to a

595
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 4: point where I was still pushing it down. You know,

596
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 4: you don't really talk about it too much, especially certain

597
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,479
Speaker 4: types of questions. Then they start kind of looking at

598
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 4: you sideways, like who have you been talking to? Even

599
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 4: if you haven't been talking to anybody, But you know,

600
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 4: that's just kind of how they're trained, Like the antend

601
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 4: is to go up. So anyway, there were a variety

602
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 4: of things, you know, I'd say to kind of pinpoint.

603
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 4: One of the things that kind of was, you know,

604
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 4: just threw me off towards the end, was they have

605
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 4: this doctrine called new light, And what that basically means

606
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 4: is that, Okay, well we believed this at one point,

607
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 4: but then God illuminated our pathway and now we understand

608
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 4: it's like this, right, So they use terms like we

609
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 4: have a better understanding, or it's been clarified, even for

610
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 4: things that have been completely changed, right, So it's not

611
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 4: it's not like a progression of understanding. It's like somebody

612
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 4: gave the example. It's like saying, oh, there's a car

613
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 4: and the car is blue. Oh, actually the car is pink.

614
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 4: Oh actually it's a duck, you know.

615
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: And it's like that it could be that drastic. It's like,

616
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: wait a minute, this is my how is It's a progression.

617
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 4: You know, there were you know, there were things that

618
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 4: I would be teaching in my door to door evangelizing

619
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 4: for years that you know, you you master and you

620
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 4: get it down, and then all of a sudden it's like, hey,

621
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 4: we got a new light.

622
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: God has illuminated and blah blah.

623
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 4: I'm like, wait a minute, what why would he Why

624
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 4: would he first tell us this only to now tell

625
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 4: us this And we've been saying the wrong thing for

626
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,479
Speaker 4: all this time, right right right, So there were things

627
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 4: like that that just after a while they just started

628
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 4: to kind of weigh on me. And then you know,

629
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 4: I had some I had some friends that were very

630
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 4: very devout, like kind of top top level people in

631
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 4: the organization that ended up, you know, coming to the

632
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 4: conclusion they didn't. They didn't share with me why, but

633
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 4: that it wasn't true, the religion wasn't true, and.

634
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: They walked away.

635
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 4: At that point, of course, I cut off all communication

636
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 4: with them, because that's how that's supposed to go. But

637
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 4: you know that stuff kind of like we've had conversations

638
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 4: like I know you're not you don't fit the description

639
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 4: of what I'm told to think.

640
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: About people like you, if that makes sense, right.

641
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 4: So, like the worst word in a Jehovah's Witness vocabulary

642
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 4: is a pastate. Like it's not even close, right, And

643
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 4: so there's a secular definition for a pastate. They they

644
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 4: their definition for a pastate is basically somebody who was

645
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 4: a baptized Jehovah's Witness who now either doesn't believe it

646
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 4: or maybe stick against it, but really it's just enough

647
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 4: to just not believe it anymore. Right, So when somebody

648
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 4: that you know it walks away and you say and

649
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 4: you slap that apostate label on them, for me, I'm

650
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 4: starting to think about all of the adjectives that go

651
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 4: along with that word a pastate, and they weren't matching.

652
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 4: I was trying, and it's like this person is like

653
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 4: this and I'm like, no, they're actually not like that.

654
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 4: They're actually good, like I know this person, like they're

655
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,239
Speaker 4: very sincere. So you know, that started to kind of

656
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 4: mess with me. That's where the kind of the cognitive

657
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 4: dissonance I think really really started.

658
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 2: How old were real?

659
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: Well, so this was when I left.

660
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 4: I was twenty eight, so i'd say like my mid

661
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 4: twenty maybe like twenty four or something like that. So

662
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 4: I was trying to push you down that whole time.

663
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 4: But this is this was kind of the process, and

664
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 4: then eventually I ended up stumbling on this thing online,

665
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 4: you know, where I saw one of the leaders of

666
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 4: the religion testifying in the courtroom in Australia about child abuse,

667
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 4: and it was just surprising. The testimony was very surprising,

668
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 4: you know. It was, like I said, it was about

669
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 4: child abuse. It didn't really seem like there was much

670
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 4: concern for children. It just seemed like he was just

671
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 4: trying to defend the organization and try to boast about

672
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 4: this reputation that the organization has.

673
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: So it wasn't like this loving carrying image.

674
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 4: That they would give Jehovah's witnesses, right, like, this is

675
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 4: not something that he would have expected jehoa witnesses to see.

676
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 4: I stumbled on that, and then you know, continue to

677
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 4: like doubt more and more, and then eventually the cognitive

678
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 4: dissonance got so strong that I just stopped going to

679
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 4: the services. You know, I got depressed, lost a whole

680
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 4: bunch of weight. Remember, this is the only thing that

681
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 4: I know, and I don't even have humans that I

682
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 4: know outside of this thing, really, you know. So I

683
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 4: just was at home and then eventually I talked to

684
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 4: my dad, and my Dad's like, you know, hey, maybe

685
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 4: this is just Satan confusing you, Like, you know, maybe.

686
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: You should give it another tribe.

687
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 4: So by that time, I had broke one of their rules,

688
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 4: which in my case was being with a woman you

689
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 4: know that I wasn't married to. They have a very

690
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 4: long list of things for which you can be excommunicated

691
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 4: or disfellowship, and anything in the sexual.

692
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: Realm is like right at the top of the list.

693
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 4: So as a result of that, even after I talked

694
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 4: to my dad and I was thinking like, Okay, maybe

695
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 4: this is Satan, maybe I have been tricked or whatever,

696
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 4: and maybe that's the reason what you're taught is the

697
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 4: better you're doing within the religion, the more where Satan

698
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 4: hates you and it's trying to distract you. Right, So

699
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 4: I was doing you know, I'm trilingual, so I learned

700
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 4: Spanish and Portuguese in there, and I was going around

701
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 4: to different countries literally, you know, speaking so like I was,

702
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 4: I was an asset to this thing, you know, at

703
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 4: least in a certain manner of speaking. Yeah, so it

704
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 4: may kind of make sense, like, of course Satan's trying

705
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 4: to attack you.

706
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: He hates everything you're doing.

707
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 4: Right, So then I said, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna

708
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 4: go talk to the elders. And because this is how

709
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 4: it's supposed to go, I added in you know, when

710
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 4: I told them, like, hey, I'm going to try to

711
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 4: rekindle my faith. I was like, by the way this

712
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 4: has happened, you're supposed to confess, write anything that happens,

713
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 4: you're either supposed to confess or somebody's.

714
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: Supposed to tell on you. That's basically how that happened.

715
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 4: In my case, nobody else knew, and the person that

716
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 4: I had been involved with, they weren't Jehovah's witness, so like,

717
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 4: you know, there.

718
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: Was no way it would have come out.

719
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 4: But you know, this is just me kind of trying

720
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 4: to put my best foot forward, and even though I'm

721
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 4: not sure, I'm just doing what I've been taught to

722
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 4: do basically, right. So you know, when I had my

723
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 4: meeting with them, it's like a trial of sorts. And

724
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 4: in the trial, that's basically what it was focused on.

725
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 4: It didn't really have anything to do with my doubts.

726
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 4: It's like, oh, you committed a sin, okay, So then

727
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 4: I'm brought in and so they have a process. It's

728
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 4: you the center, and then three elders, and they're basically

729
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 4: asking you questions to determine not if you did whatever

730
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 4: it is, but how sorry you are. And they have

731
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 4: a book that you, as a rank and file Jehovah's witness,

732
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 4: don't even know about wow until you become an elder.

733
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 4: And for example, women can never become elders. So in theory,

734
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 4: a women would never know, right. But she also has

735
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 4: to go before that tribunal of three older men and

736
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 4: they dismiss her to deliberate.

737
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: They're looking at this book. She doesn't even know it exists, right.

738
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 4: I say that because that's an easy example as far

739
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 4: as women are concerned, because they will never be elders.

740
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 4: But most men are not elders either, right, the vast

741
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 4: majority of men aren't elders either. You know, in a

742
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 4: congregation one hundred people, there may be five elders, you know.

743
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 4: So anyway, they have these either catchphrases they're looking for,

744
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 4: they have these certain things they're looking for, and if

745
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 4: you don't match up with whatever the book says, you know,

746
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 4: as you're remorsefully crying and telling your story, then when

747
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 4: you come back into the room, it's like, nope, you're

748
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 4: getting to act.

749
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,919
Speaker 1: So that's what they're basically determined. At that point.

750
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,879
Speaker 4: They're determining if you're either going to be this fellowshiped,

751
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 4: which means cut off from everybody, there's gonna be an

752
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 4: announcement made such and such as no longer one of

753
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 4: Jehovah's witnesses. It reverberates around the world essentially through phone

754
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 4: calls and everything else. And you know, especially if you

755
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 4: were well known like me, everybody knew very quickly. So

756
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 4: there's either that option, or if they decide that you

757
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 4: are sorry enough, there may still be an announcement made.

758
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 4: But it's not that you're not one of Jehovah's witnesses.

759
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 4: It might just say that you've committed a sin, but

760
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 4: you've shown the necessary degree of remorse, so you can

761
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 4: still have communication with people, but they should probably be

762
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 4: careful of you because you're weak, you know that kind

763
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 4: of and then you try to work to restore that right.

764
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: So that's basically what happened with me.

765
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 4: So it was determined when they got together, when they

766
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 4: you know, sent me out of the room to deliberate.

767
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 4: When I came back, they said like, nah, you're yeah,

768
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 4: you're this fellowship. So you know, then shortly thereafter they

769
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 4: make the announcement and it's like a death.

770
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: It's literally like you're you're dying right now.

771
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 4: There's a path to reinstatement, right, So that's why Jehovah's

772
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 4: witnesses will say, oh, it's not inhumane, it's not a

773
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 4: permanent thing necessarily, right, because if you go through this

774
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 4: long process of trying to get reinstated, it could take

775
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 4: six months, it could take five years. It really just

776
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 4: depends during that time. During that whole time that you're

777
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 4: sitting out not talking to anyone, you still have to

778
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 4: be going to all the meetings. That's like working towards

779
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 4: your time so you going towards the meetings, you're just

780
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 4: sitting there, you leave, you know, you come in a

781
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 4: little bit late, you leave a little bit early, so

782
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 4: that nobody's talking to you, nobody makes eye contact. But

783
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 4: you you know, that's basically showing you're going through this

784
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 4: kind of humiliation thing and showing your remorse.

785
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's open to you potentially if you're ever disfellowships.

786
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 4: Basically what happened to me is once I got this Fellowships,

787
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 4: I still wasn't sure one way or the other.

788
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: You know, again, I didn't really know anybody outside.

789
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 4: I just was like, Okay, I put in a lot

790
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 4: of time years, you know, I've sacrifice things for this,

791
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 4: Like let me, let me try to really see if

792
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 4: this is what I'm supposed to be doing. If it is,

793
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,720
Speaker 4: then I need to get back focused and doing it again.

794
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 4: But once I started going back to the meetings, and

795
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 4: I'm kind of unplugged from everybody, and I'm just like

796
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 4: looking around and I'm like this is kind of psycho Like,

797
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 4: you know, something seems really crazy about this, Like it's

798
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 4: like something you know, It's like something just went off

799
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 4: of my head. Even though I didn't have anything to

800
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 4: compare it to. That's the crazy thing to be what

801
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 4: was my reference point? Like, I didn't really have a

802
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 4: reference point. I just was like, man, something is off,

803
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 4: Like these people are weird, you know, and so like

804
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 4: the things that they found funny and the stuff that

805
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 4: the guys were saying up on the stage, and I

806
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 4: would hear how they would talk about people who were

807
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 4: in my situation. Now I'm looking at it from a

808
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 4: different standpoint, and I'm like, well, like I'm not I'm

809
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 4: not that. So eventually there were times where I would

810
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 4: go to a meeting and then I would just like

811
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 4: walk out in the middle and it was I can't

812
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 4: even explain what it was, but it was just like

813
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 4: I felt like I was like dying.

814
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: Sitting in there.

815
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 4: You know. It was just something was something was really

816
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 4: off in my spirit or you know, whatever whatever term

817
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 4: you want to use. You know, at that point, I

818
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 4: got to the point where I said, Okay, I have

819
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 4: to do the unthinkable, and the unthinkable is researching this religion.

820
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: Outside of their approved publications.

821
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 4: And I said I have to know one way or

822
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 4: the other because at this point I'm disconnected from everybody.

823
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 4: I can get reinstated I know how that whole process works.

824
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 4: And remember, like I'm this fellowship because of me telling

825
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 4: on myself at the end of the day. So if I,

826
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 4: you know, if I want to get reinstated, I definitely

827
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 4: can figure out how to do it. When I was

828
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 4: at Jehovah's witness I really belie like I really believed it,

829
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 4: and I really practiced it. So like the idea of

830
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 4: kind of like doing like a you know, like a

831
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 4: half assed kind of thing, it just doesn't appeal.

832
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 1: To somebody like me, for whatever that's worth.

833
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 4: So basically I and I went a very safe route

834
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 4: as far as researching.

835
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: I went to Wikipedia. First. I'm like, okay, Wikipedia is

836
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: not created by these.

837
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 4: Evil apostates, right, I don't think I don't think they

838
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 4: have a patent on this, So maybe this is just

839
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 4: like some more you know, balanced criticism whatever. So I

840
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 4: started looking at stuff from there, and then I kept

841
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 4: seeing this book reference called Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz,

842
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,760
Speaker 4: who's a former Governing Body member, and a Governing Body

843
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 4: member is the top level that's like the pope equivalent

844
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 4: for Jehovah's Witnesses, but it's a body of men, you know,

845
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,760
Speaker 4: at some points has been like as low as seven.

846
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 4: There's been times where it's been as many as eighteen.

847
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 4: But these are all part of the men who supposedly

848
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 4: are part of that one hundred and forty four thousand group, right,

849
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 4: so they the people who are leading the religion are

850
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 4: supposedly part of that very small group. So anyway, there

851
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 4: was a book written by, you know, a former member

852
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 4: of that body, and you know it wasn't ever talked

853
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 4: about is you can probably imagine, like, you know, I

854
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 4: saw I worked at the headquarters in New York, which

855
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 4: is also like a very prestigious thing. When I was nineteen,

856
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,359
Speaker 4: from nineteen to twenty one, I was accepted to work

857
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 4: at the headquarters. That's something you have to apply for

858
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 4: and a lot of people get rejected. So anyway, I

859
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 4: read the book trembling like this is so evil, this

860
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 4: is so terrible. I read the book and as I

861
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 4: read it, I was like, yep, yep, yep, everything that

862
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 4: I was reading was ringing true, and everything that I

863
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 4: had thought previously, it was like being confirmed.

864
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 1: You know that I wasn't crazy.

865
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 4: You know that these decisions and these doctrines are kind

866
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 4: of just made like on a whim and sometimes they

867
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 4: really adversely affect people's lives, you know, like they make

868
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 4: these decisions for the flock or whatever. And so you

869
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 4: guys probably know about the ban on blood transfusions right

870
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 4: within MS. Right, so if you're in a life or

871
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 4: death situation, you're not supposed to get a blood transfusion. Now,

872
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,240
Speaker 4: the way that the Jehovah's Witness will kind of explain

873
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,399
Speaker 4: it is that, well, it's not that we want to die, right,

874
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 4: So if we're in a life or death situation, it's

875
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 4: not like we're like, we don't care, just just kill me, right.

876
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 4: They're taught to look for alternatives, right, alternative ways of

877
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 4: saving their lives, and that's why they feel like it's

878
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 4: okay and they're not trying to be martyrs. But at

879
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 4: the end of the day, when it comes down to it,

880
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 4: if it's like take a blood transfusion there's no other options,

881
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 4: or you're going to die, then it's like I'm in

882
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 4: Jehovah's hands. And that's basically how it goes. And people

883
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 4: have made that decision. That part I knew about, right,

884
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 4: That wasn't the crazy part. That's the part that you

885
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,280
Speaker 4: know about as a Jehoah's witness right. Like, for example,

886
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 4: again it slight tangent. My sister when she was seventeen,

887
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 4: she had open heart surgery, and that was a big subject.

888
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 1: Right.

889
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 4: It's like the doctor's like, Okay, I'm not saying I

890
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 4: have to give you a blood transfusion, but you have

891
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 4: to at.

892
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 1: Least like allow me that. She's like, no, my sister

893
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:55,959
Speaker 1: could have died.

894
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 4: Like, it's not an exaggeration to say she could have

895
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 4: died at seventeen off the strength of this doctrine.

896
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 1: Right.

897
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 4: So again, that's the part that I knew about. What

898
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 4: I didn't realize until I read that book. I believe

899
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 4: it was in that book, is that there have been

900
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 4: other things that have been said by the governing body

901
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 4: of Jehovah's Witnesses that were supposedly commandments of God that

902
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 4: were later changed, but in the interim before the change.

903
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: Happened, people died.

904
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,760
Speaker 4: I'll give you an example organ transplants. There was a time,

905
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 4: a large period within the modern history of Jehovah's Witnesses

906
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 4: in which organ transplants were considered cannibalism. So if you

907
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 4: received an organ transplant, you would be disfellowship for that

908
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 4: if you can beliete that, right. So the same similar

909
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 4: thing with blood, right, if you receive a blood transfusion,

910
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 4: they use a slightly different term, but ultimately you can

911
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 4: be disfellowship even if it's a life and death thing.

912
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 4: You know, there's consequences for sure. So you know, back then,

913
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 4: organ transplants were in that group with blood transfusions. And

914
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 4: then at some point, I don't remember what, years before

915
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 4: before my time, but I found out that at one

916
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 4: point they said organ transplants actually aren't cannibalism. Right, So

917
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 4: now it's okay, but what about all those people that

918
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 4: died no acknowledgement, there's no like, you know, I wish

919
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 4: God would have told us this earlier because maybe saved

920
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 4: some lot.

921
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 2: Like.

922
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: So I started thinking, like, okay.

923
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 4: Wait a minute, wait a minute, there's no God, you know,

924
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 4: related to these decisions. These are just some dudes coming

925
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 4: up with you know, this is just conjecture, right. So basically,

926
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 4: you know, after I read that book, it became clear

927
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 4: to me that this wasn't this religionous belief system was

928
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,320
Speaker 4: not what it had been represented, you know, to me

929
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:44,879
Speaker 4: what I.

930
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: Believed it to be.

931
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 4: I still wasn't using the term cult, because the author

932
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 4: of that book I was talking about, he definitely doesn't

933
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 4: use the term cult.

934
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: For me, it didn't matter what the term was.

935
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 4: It just it's either true or it's not right, because

936
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 4: the reason why I was doing it is because it's true.

937
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 4: So if it's not true, then I can't go take

938
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 4: the steps to get reinstated. I can't keep doing this

939
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 4: because I'm just wasting time and like I can't you know,

940
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 4: I'm just not willing to continue to do that. So

941
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 4: at that point, when I knew that not only am

942
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 4: I this fellowship now, but now I'm not going back,

943
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 4: I wrote a letter to my father. He didn't answer it,

944
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 4: and eventually I like drove to his house like a

945
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 4: crazy person, kind of demanding an audience, like this is crazy,

946
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 4: Like I'm not, I'm not just some wicked person. I've

947
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 4: come to a you know, sincere conclusion that I don't

948
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 4: believe in this. And it's not like I'm I'm not

949
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 4: trying to end our relationship. You know, there must be

950
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 4: something to work, Like I knew the rules and everything,

951
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 4: but I didn't realize it worked like this, Like I

952
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 4: never in my mind, I.

953
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,720
Speaker 1: Didn't really believe there was a legitimate.

954
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 4: Reason to walk away from this thing, right, So anybody

955
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 4: who was cut off from their family, they deserved it, right,

956
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 4: They were just you know, they were just being wicked.

957
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 4: So yeah, of course, of course you do, not quite

958
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 4: extent every time, but generally that's the idea, right, Like,

959
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 4: it could be that, Okay, maybe you're confused, right, and

960
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 4: that's unfortunate that you're confused right now, But at the

961
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 4: end of the day, what you're supposed to be doing

962
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 4: is being at Jehovah's witness, right, So like you need

963
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 4: to get back in line. You know, you're taught that

964
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 4: you're not dealing with people is helping them see the

965
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 4: error of their ways, because if you were to communicate

966
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 4: with them, they might think, like, it's not that serious,

967
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 4: and then you know, why would they come back? So

968
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 4: especially now thinking about that as that's one of the

969
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 4: things that they say is going to help that this

970
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:34,399
Speaker 4: felaship person come back, It's like, wow, there's some real

971
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 4: emotional blackmail.

972
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: Going on here.

973
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 4: You know, you kind of realize that when you start

974
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 4: learning the terms and the methods that all of these

975
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 4: cults use. So you know, I tried to plead my

976
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 4: case with my parents and just explain it to them.

977
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 4: I didn't even have access to my siblings or anybody else.

978
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 4: My dad's kind of like the gatekeeper in the family.

979
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,720
Speaker 4: That's just kind of his role. Even with my mom.

980
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 4: I had to kind of like find my way to

981
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 4: have a conversation with my mom and that was like

982
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,240
Speaker 4: very challenging. My dad was kind of blocking it basically.

983
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 4: But yeah, so they basically said, you know, we love you, son,

984
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 4: but we were staying loyal to Jehovah. And that's how

985
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 4: it's been and there hasn't been any communication. That's just

986
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 4: you know, that's just the way that it is.

987
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 2: How long ago is that?

988
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 4: So that was so I was this fellowship in April

989
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:28,919
Speaker 4: twenty sixteen. That conversation was probably like a month later

990
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 4: or something like that. Since then, I think somebody was

991
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 4: like real sick in the hospital and I got a

992
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 4: call about that. You know, you could kind of tell

993
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 4: people about life or death types of situations, but.

994
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 1: I've even only gotten like one of those.

995
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 4: So for the most part, I haven't had any communication

996
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 4: with them since I guess May or June of twenty sixteen.

997
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 1: Definitely no like just normal conversation for sure.

998
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so what has what has that been?

999
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 1: Like, it's terrible, Yeah, it's terrible.

1000
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 4: It is well, okay, I'm very happy to not be

1001
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 4: involved in or devoting all my time to something that

1002
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,399
Speaker 4: I don't believe to be true. Okay, so I'll say

1003
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 4: that first of all, there isn't a comfortable way out

1004
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 4: of this thing, right, So with that in mind, my

1005
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 4: situation has a lot of difficult times.

1006
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 1: Sometimes I have sleepless nights.

1007
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 4: Sometimes something as simple as you know, hanging out with

1008
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 4: friends now and they say, hey, I was talking to

1009
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 4: my mom the other day, and it's like, well, damn,

1010
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 4: I can't do that, you know, just like very basic

1011
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:32,800
Speaker 4: things that people would say.

1012
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: You know, or like my brother. You know, my little

1013
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 1: brother who's my.

1014
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 4: Best friend, you know, is a three year three month

1015
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 4: difference between us, and haven't spoken to him, you know,

1016
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 4: and so like it's, yeah, it's very difficult. I have

1017
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 4: a son now, you know, my parents have never met

1018
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:49,919
Speaker 4: my son. Nobody in my family basically has met my son,

1019
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 4: like and the interesting thing is, in theory they could

1020
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 4: meet him if I wasn't involved or so it's you know,

1021
00:47:58,280 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 4: it's just this.

1022
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: Whole like weird thing.

1023
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 4: But no, so they have. You know, my son is

1024
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 4: fifteen months now. He doesn't know who you know, he

1025
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 4: doesn't know anybody in my family. He's never met anybody

1026
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:11,760
Speaker 4: in my family, you know, only on his mother's side,

1027
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 4: who's not a Jehoah's witness, right, So they it's just

1028
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 4: one of those things.

1029
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's definitely difficult.

1030
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 4: But you know, like I say, even in my music

1031
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 4: or whatever, like, although I will continue to speak out

1032
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 4: against this practice of you know, this fellowshipping and the shunning,

1033
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 4: and I think it's it's really one of the worst

1034
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 4: things you can do to a human, right you think

1035
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 4: about how we are. It's like that ostracism, especially a

1036
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 4: systematic ostracism. Imagine this has literally happened. Imagine walking down

1037
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:42,240
Speaker 4: the street with somebody you grew up with or somebody

1038
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 4: that saw you for years, and they literally just like

1039
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:44,879
Speaker 4: ghost you.

1040
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: They like look right past them. You know.

1041
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:51,799
Speaker 4: It's the weirdest, like most dehumanizing thing, especially when you're

1042
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 4: in my position and you realize, like this is all

1043
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 4: based on nothing, like this is just some dudes that

1044
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 4: wouldn't know if you died tomorrow, right, It's they're making

1045
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 4: these guys at the top, they're making these decisions.

1046
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 1: They don't care.

1047
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 4: About you, they don't even know you exist, right, But

1048
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 4: you're giving your allegiance to them, thinking that your allegiances

1049
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 4: to God, you know, and it's twisted. So yeah, you know,

1050
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,879
Speaker 4: like I said, it's challenging, but I will definitely take

1051
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 4: this over the alternative. The alternative would be still being

1052
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 4: in there, And yeah, that one's.

1053
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 1: Not hard for me. That's not a hard decision for me.

1054
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 1: Like this is. This is definitely better than being in that,

1055
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:32,879
Speaker 1: for sure.

1056
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 3: I was just gonna ask, what would happen if you're

1057
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 3: walking down the street and somebody shunned you and you

1058
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 3: just started shaking them and saying, you know who I am.

1059
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: I think that's an assault.

1060
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 3: I don't think that.

1061
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think that's at least a misdemeanor.

1062
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:00,760
Speaker 3: Was your normal question?

1063
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 2: Oh, I guess I was gonna say. You know, my

1064
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 2: mom's whole dissertation for her PhD was on well, it

1065
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 2: was on misrepresentation in the media, which is a separate thing,

1066
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 2: but one of the big things that she writes about

1067
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 2: and talks about is the actual pain that it is

1068
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 2: when you're experiencing social ostracization. Social pain lights up the

1069
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 2: pain areas in our brain that we feel when we

1070
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,959
Speaker 2: feel his physical pain. And I don't know, I think

1071
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 2: there's this like tendency for people to think it's not

1072
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 2: that big of a deal, but that shit is is

1073
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 2: literally traumatic, Like it literally traumatizes you. Yeah, I mean

1074
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:43,879
Speaker 2: it feels like you're gonna die because you're being thrown

1075
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,399
Speaker 2: out of the pack, but especially when it's your family too,

1076
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 2: and not just like like everyone in your life, Like

1077
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 2: that's fucked up. Yeah, man, it's so fucked up. I'm

1078
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 2: sorry that happened.

1079
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: Thank you.

1080
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's you know, it's it's a it's a very

1081
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 4: familiar story to anybody who's been part of that Colder

1082
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:01,720
Speaker 4: or probably many others.

1083
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 2: You know.

1084
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 4: I'm happy that I'm able to speak about it. But yeah, definitely,

1085
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,320
Speaker 4: it's it's it's a it's very very challenging.

1086
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:10,439
Speaker 1: It's it's most of us.

1087
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 4: Deal with depression, myself included, you know, and you know,

1088
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 4: a lot a lot of other things along those lines.

1089
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 3: Cliff, I wanted to ask you when you when did

1090
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 3: you make the jump that it was a cult.

1091
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 1: Probably shortly after.

1092
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 4: So what happened is once I, you know, finished reading

1093
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 4: that book and he kind of came to that conclusion.

1094
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 4: Then I started actually kind of reaching out to even

1095
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 4: some of the friends that I told you that I

1096
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 4: had before that it left because I still, even though

1097
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 4: I wasn't sure if it was true or not, I

1098
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 4: still kind of viewed them as like, well, yeah, but

1099
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:41,839
Speaker 4: they're kind of.

1100
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 1: Still evil, you know.

1101
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 4: And then once I kind of got over that and

1102
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 4: I started talking to them, that's when I started to

1103
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 4: hear some of these terms that are kind of thrown around. Well, actually,

1104
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:53,760
Speaker 4: let me answer it more specifically. When I started calling

1105
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 4: it a cult was probably after I read Steven Hodson's

1106
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 4: book I'm Betting Colt Mind Control, because it became very

1107
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:06,240
Speaker 4: obvious to me that this is a cult, like by

1108
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 4: not even by just emotionally screaming, this is a cult,

1109
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 4: you know, like experts would agree that this has cult characteristics.

1110
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: You know.

1111
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 4: One thing that something that I kind of say now

1112
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 4: I think rings true is something that was said by

1113
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 4: Mike Render, a former ranking scientologists who I met on

1114
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 4: that set of the Lea Remedy Show, and he said,

1115
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 4: I think it's even on our episode. He said, the

1116
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 4: difference between a cult and religion is what happens when

1117
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 4: you try to leave right.

1118
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 1: So to me, that's the main thing that makes it

1119
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 1: a cult.

1120
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 4: There's a lot of groups that have beliefs that I

1121
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 4: think are odd, and it is what it is, right,

1122
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 4: whatever you want to believe, you know, whatever, whatever you

1123
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 4: think is right right. But to me, that's when you

1124
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 4: cross the line when you start having your own family.

1125
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 4: Like my mother who gave birth to me, it's crazy,

1126
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:57,839
Speaker 4: like she literally thinks that talking to me is going

1127
00:52:57,880 --> 00:52:59,479
Speaker 4: to piss God off.

1128
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:03,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is crazy.

1129
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that's what makes it a cult.

1130
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,720
Speaker 3: But knowing that it's crazy, I always ask people this question,

1131
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 3: but does it still like kind of is there this

1132
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 3: little kid part of you that's like maybe it's true

1133
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 3: ever still inside there?

1134
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 1: Not now? Not now? May there may have been?

1135
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 4: And you know, I'm gonna say the main reason why

1136
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 4: I believe that I don't deal with that is because

1137
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 4: I've done extensive research on this.

1138
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:26,879
Speaker 1: Right.

1139
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 4: So there's a lot of people I know who just say,

1140
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 4: you know what, the witnesses aren't for me, And I'm

1141
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 4: just gonna like, Okay, I'm just fellowship or whatever.

1142
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 1: I'm just do my thing.

1143
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 4: And when different things happen, they're like, man, another earthquake,

1144
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,319
Speaker 4: they said the earthquakes was part of the you know,

1145
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 4: sign of the Last Day or whatever, right, and they

1146
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 4: kind of have these things. And my first question when

1147
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:49,400
Speaker 4: people come to me and say that, I'd be like,

1148
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 4: have you really, you know, done your due diligence? Have

1149
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 4: you really convinced yourself? And I feel weird even using

1150
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 4: term convinced yourself? But just have you done your homework

1151
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 4: on this, right? Because if you've done your homework on

1152
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 4: it and really done it, don't I don't believe you

1153
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:07,399
Speaker 4: would still have that issue. That's just my personal opinion, right,

1154
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 4: Like you know, I've watched videos, I've spoken to people.

1155
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 1: Over the phone who were involved with some of the

1156
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 1: earlier stuff.

1157
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 4: I've I've done my due diligence, so you know, there

1158
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 4: are things that happen that kind of remind me of

1159
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 4: things that like the witnesses say, but it doesn't stick

1160
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 4: at all, because I know better now. I don't even

1161
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 4: know what it would take for me to believe that

1162
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:30,240
Speaker 4: that's possibly true anymore.

1163
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 3: Right, do you have any religious beliefs now?

1164
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 4: No, I definitely don't have religious beliefs. I guess I

1165
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 4: guess I'm in the agnostic category. Although like I'm open

1166
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 4: minded to spirituality and things like that. Like, you know,

1167
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 4: there's been things that I've kind of been looking into,

1168
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 4: but no, I don't have like a system of beliefs

1169
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 4: or anything specific.

1170
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 1: That I you know, that I believe in.

1171
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 4: Wow.

1172
00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:58,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a free agent.

1173
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's fucking America.

1174
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:03,879
Speaker 2: So I had one more thing that I actually meant

1175
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 2: to bring up earlier, which is just how much the

1176
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 2: cult is capitalizing on this coronavirus moment to feed their

1177
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,720
Speaker 2: narrative that the end times are just around the corner.

1178
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 2: I watched part of that Stephen Lett video and there

1179
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 2: was a quote that I just like just kind of

1180
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 2: blew my mind. Here's the quote. So the events unfolding

1181
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 2: around us are making clearer than ever that we're living

1182
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 2: in the final part of the Last Days, undoubtedly the

1183
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:35,840
Speaker 2: final part of the final part of the Last days,

1184
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:41,399
Speaker 2: shortly before the last day of the last I mean,

1185
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:43,960
Speaker 2: and it's funny, but it's also not funny because obviously

1186
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,240
Speaker 2: a lot of people take this very seriously and truly

1187
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:48,439
Speaker 2: think that the end of the world is coming. Were

1188
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 2: you thinking about the end of the world when you

1189
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 2: were in it?

1190
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, definitely, definitely.

1191
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:57,840
Speaker 4: They talk about the end of the world and different

1192
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 4: things that happen on the world stage. If you will,

1193
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:02,840
Speaker 4: you might be talking with a small group of Jehovah's

1194
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 4: witnesses and be like, hey, did you hear about what happened?

1195
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 4: And what's your mc calle. I don't wonder if that's

1196
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 4: you know, whatever the organization, because of so many failed

1197
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 4: prophecies and dates they've had in the past, they don't

1198
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 4: usually commit to saying, hey, Russia do this, so this

1199
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,360
Speaker 4: is this. You know, they don't really do this so

1200
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 4: much anymore, but but it's still definitely the you know,

1201
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 4: the idea is that it could come any any at

1202
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 4: any time, right like at any point in history.

1203
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 1: With Jehovah's witnesses.

1204
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 4: You know, your children are not going to finish high

1205
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 4: school for sure, Like that's not going to happen. Basically,

1206
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 4: it's not that far off, Like it's never been that

1207
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:40,359
Speaker 4: far off since you know, the beginning. It's always been

1208
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 4: right around the corner, just a few years away whatever

1209
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 4: or maybe less.

1210
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 1: I thought about it. I definitely thought about it.

1211
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 4: And that's why a lot of Jehoah's witnesses don't have

1212
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 4: retirement set up. That's why well that's part of the

1213
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:54,800
Speaker 4: reason a lot of Jehoa's witnesses don't focus on career,

1214
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 4: because your career is to be a Jehovah's witness, right,

1215
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 4: just do that as much as you can, so you

1216
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 4: kind of always have that there, and every meeting and

1217
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 4: every publication is talking about the end and you know,

1218
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 4: paradise and stuff like that.

1219
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's definitely on the forefront.

1220
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 2: Oh it's crazy. I was looking at the like list

1221
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 2: of things on the website that are currently happening according

1222
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 2: to the specific Bible passages, right, and I'm like, well, yeah,

1223
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 2: if I believed that the Bible was real and that

1224
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 2: these passages were real, yeah, it would really definitely feel

1225
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 2: like the end is coming. You got the pestilence, you

1226
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 2: got the you know, atheism, you got the earthquakes, famine,

1227
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 2: all of it, almost all of.

1228
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 1: It, definitely.

1229
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 4: I mean there's I guess I'm kind of cynical when

1230
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 4: it comes to a lot of that stuff because I

1231
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 4: feel like at a lot of times in history you

1232
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:47,040
Speaker 4: could have you know, made the argument, you know, just

1233
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 4: picking up certain scriptures and interpreting in certain certain ways.

1234
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 4: But right, but yeah, absolutely, like that's something they'll definitely

1235
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 4: capitalize on when nine to eleven happened, you know, they

1236
00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 4: they said that that's part of the sign, and.

1237
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, I'm sure that people in the sixties

1238
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 2: and seventies when there was like insane levels of war

1239
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 2: and civil unrest, like I'm sure they felt the exact

1240
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 2: same feeling like there's no way it can't be right

1241
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:11,520
Speaker 2: next year.

1242
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, hippies, free love, I mean, all of that stuff

1243
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 4: would have been like, oh man, it's really gotten, it's

1244
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 4: really right.

1245
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 3: And then remember when my AIDS epidemic came out, and

1246
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 3: that was the side. I mean, my grandpa really thought

1247
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 3: the end of time was coming every day of his life.

1248
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:31,040
Speaker 3: It's and I think it's probably just an unconscious way

1249
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 3: a lot of people avoid death or something, but it's

1250
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 3: pretty wildly absolutely.

1251
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 2: So let's talk about your music, because this has been

1252
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 2: you know, you've taken this experience that you've had and

1253
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 2: channeled it into your art and made these songs about

1254
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 2: this group and your experiences with them. And I've read

1255
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 2: some of the comments and it seems like it's resonating

1256
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 2: with a lot of x JW's, which I think is

1257
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 2: so cool. Can you just tell us about your music

1258
00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 2: and how you started doing that, and yeah.

1259
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I've all loved rap music and as you

1260
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 4: can probably guess, it's frowned upon to put it lightly

1261
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 4: within you know, that group. So rap is kind of

1262
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 4: one of those things that depending on what Jehoah's witnesses

1263
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 4: you're around, it might be okay to like play a

1264
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 4: rap song, but it would have to be like the

1265
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 4: clean version. You know, it's still kind of like borderline,

1266
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 4: and you would only do it in certain circles.

1267
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 1: But it's not like one of those things that gets

1268
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 1: you like kicked out, you know.

1269
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:26,840
Speaker 4: Right, there's like there's a little bit of gray, I

1270
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 4: guess depending on how you who you ask or whatever.

1271
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:31,800
Speaker 4: So anyway, but even though I didn't even listen to

1272
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 4: that much of it, right, like as much as I

1273
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 4: would have liked to, probably, I always just really loved

1274
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 4: the art form, and from an early age I discovered

1275
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 4: that I kind of had an ability as far as

1276
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 4: rap was concerned.

1277
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:44,960
Speaker 1: You know.

1278
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 4: I think I was like maybe twelve when I made

1279
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:49,520
Speaker 4: my first song just for me and like a couple

1280
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 4: of my friends like, hey, do you think this sounds cool?

1281
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 1: Or whatever?

1282
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 4: It was actually this is really corny, but it was

1283
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 4: actually for like a school project.

1284
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 1: I think it was like health class or something, and

1285
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 1: it was about drugs, like saying no to drugs. Right,

1286
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 1: So I like made a rap out of it.

1287
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 4: Right, it's really kind of corny, but like you know,

1288
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 4: that was when I first realized like, Okay, I kind

1289
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:09,600
Speaker 4: of have an ability to do this, but I couldn't. Obviously,

1290
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 4: I couldn't really do anything with it. You know, it's

1291
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 4: proud upon and it's you know, a becoming something in

1292
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 4: this world.

1293
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 1: You know, like that it's just not you know, something

1294
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 1: that they would ever like encourage you to do. But

1295
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 1: I always had the love for it.

1296
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 4: And if I heard a song where somebody was being

1297
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:27,919
Speaker 4: really creative with their lyrics, it was like, oh man,

1298
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 4: it just made me.

1299
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 1: It's just something I really enjoyed.

1300
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 4: So anyway, after I was out of the religion and

1301
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 4: I was doing the Earth, you know, I'll use the

1302
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 4: word cult and I sometimes don't use that, but I'm

1303
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 4: embracing that word now. After I was out of the

1304
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 4: cult and I started doing my separate channel for my

1305
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 4: activism where you know, I've interviewed people. I probably have

1306
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 4: like fifty videos. Even Stephen Hassana is on there. I

1307
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,120
Speaker 4: wanted to really add my voice to that because I

1308
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 4: felt especially like where I was within the cult, my

1309
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 4: voice would would resonate.

1310
01:00:57,840 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 1: And then it just kind of got to a point.

1311
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 4: As of like last year, I was like it was

1312
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 4: it was literally as simple as like now I've always

1313
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 4: wanted to rap, like I'm just gonna do it.

1314
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 1: It was just basically like that, I'm just going to

1315
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 1: do it.

1316
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 4: So I started making my songs and at first it

1317
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:14,960
Speaker 4: wasn't necessarily going to be so focused on that experience.

1318
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:16,680
Speaker 4: It's just going to be about me just you know,

1319
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 4: just whatever, just rapping, you know, just.

1320
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 1: Being an artist. Ye.

1321
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 4: It was actually my friends that kind of listened to

1322
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 4: my music and they're like, no, man, this is actually

1323
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:27,440
Speaker 4: the one. This is this where you're telling your story.

1324
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:29,200
Speaker 4: And I kind of went back and forth because I

1325
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:31,200
Speaker 4: was like, you know, I don't know in rap, I've

1326
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:34,480
Speaker 4: never heard that story really told. It's not like a

1327
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 4: common thing. If anything, I think people in the hip

1328
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 4: hop community. I would say that like speaking against a

1329
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 4: religion is probably frowned upon more than anything, right because

1330
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 4: it's kind of like, you know, you don't talk about

1331
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:49,960
Speaker 4: your mama, you don't talk about God. That's basically kind

1332
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 4: of one of those things. But I just decided, you know,

1333
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 4: the reason why I fell in love with with rap

1334
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 4: music was that people were telling their stories, right, So

1335
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 4: they're authentic stories. So it could be Jay Z talking

1336
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 4: about being a drug dealer, right, I don't have any

1337
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 4: background in that, right, as simple YouTube search will verify that,

1338
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 4: But I can hear the authenticity in what he's saying

1339
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 4: in that that's his story, right, and there's elements of

1340
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 4: it that I think everybody can kind of identify with.

1341
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 1: Right.

1342
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 4: So that's the only thing I was willing to rap

1343
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 4: about that. I was only willing to rap about being

1344
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 4: a witness. But I'm saying, just just kind of tell

1345
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:30,760
Speaker 4: my authentic story, whether it's how I feel now or different.

1346
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 1: Things that I've been through or whatever. Right, So that's

1347
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 1: what I decided to do. You know.

1348
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 4: I wrote that song cost of Doing Business, which is

1349
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 4: like the song where I'm explaining growing up as a

1350
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:42,440
Speaker 4: witness and then being excommunicated and trying to explain it

1351
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 4: to my family and you know, now they don't acknowledge

1352
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 4: my existence.

1353
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 1: That's part of the hook.

1354
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 4: And you know, like you said, people have it's really

1355
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:52,760
Speaker 4: resonated with people you know, around the world. If you

1356
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 4: look at the comments, you can see that people are like,

1357
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 4: that's my story.

1358
01:02:57,120 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 1: You know, that's my story. I've never heard this talked

1359
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:00,600
Speaker 1: about in rap.

1360
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:02,600
Speaker 4: I love rap, but I never heard this star or

1361
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 4: I hate rap, but I love this song. You know,

1362
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:09,040
Speaker 4: they're like, it's it's interesting how the fan base is forming.

1363
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:12,160
Speaker 4: But it's cool, you know. I'm glad that it resonates

1364
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:14,959
Speaker 4: with people. I usually try to say, I'm not necessarily

1365
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:18,520
Speaker 4: trying to just be only in that lane, so to speak.

1366
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:20,439
Speaker 4: You know, I want to just be an artist and stuff.

1367
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:23,160
Speaker 4: But but a lot of it, I guess, even if

1368
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 4: it's kind of subtle, has nods to that because that's

1369
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:28,120
Speaker 4: just what I what I come from. You know, There's

1370
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 4: maybe certain things I say in the music that somebody

1371
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 4: who's not a former witness may say, you know, take

1372
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 4: it and apply it in this.

1373
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 1: Way in their life.

1374
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 4: But somebody who's a former witness, like I know exactly

1375
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:41,160
Speaker 4: what he means when he said that word, because.

1376
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 1: That's you know.

1377
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 4: So it's so that's something I'm priding myself on now,

1378
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 4: Like I want to make music that everybody can take

1379
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 4: something away from. And I feel like I'm accomplishing that,

1380
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:53,160
Speaker 4: which is, you know, I think a huge compliment.

1381
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:55,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love your songs. I like on my Way

1382
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:57,280
Speaker 2: in particular, thank you.

1383
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:01,040
Speaker 3: I can only say clip your families loss, you.

1384
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 1: Know, thank you. Yeah, I'm glad you feel that way.

1385
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:05,560
Speaker 2: I do one hundred percent.

1386
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1387
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:09,880
Speaker 2: Do you have any final messages for maybe someone who's

1388
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 2: just sort of emerging from the ideology right now?

1389
01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:14,360
Speaker 1: Or yeah.

1390
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 4: I would just say again I kind of mentioned this earlier,

1391
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:22,120
Speaker 4: but just really do your research. These ideas were like

1392
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 4: really ingrained, deeply ingrained. So like the idea that you're

1393
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:29,000
Speaker 4: just going to be able to just kind of let

1394
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 4: them go like that and it's not going to have

1395
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 4: any effect on you, I think is unlikely in my opinion.

1396
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 4: So you know, again, like I said, really do your

1397
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 4: homework and then just live your life whatever that means.

1398
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:43,280
Speaker 4: You know, there's some people who may want to continue

1399
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 4: to talk about this, you know, even with me a

1400
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 4: little bit in my music. I'm talking about it to

1401
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:49,440
Speaker 4: some people say like, Okay, once I've done my due diligence,

1402
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 4: I'm not ever discussing this ever again. And that's fine too,

1403
01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:56,080
Speaker 4: you know, but just whatever makes sense to you. It's

1404
01:04:56,120 --> 01:04:58,560
Speaker 4: not a one size fits all thing, just do whatever

1405
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:02,760
Speaker 4: is best for you situation. And I would also say

1406
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 4: that especially like you look at somebody like me, who's

1407
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 4: you know, rapping like that's definitely not something I'm supposed

1408
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:11,480
Speaker 4: to be doing by most people's standards, especially out of

1409
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:13,919
Speaker 4: after what I came out of, and I would say,

1410
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 4: forget what everybody else is saying. Just do whatever it

1411
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:18,720
Speaker 4: is that you want to do, as long as you're

1412
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:21,960
Speaker 4: not hurting other people, live your life and try not

1413
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:24,160
Speaker 4: to have regrets when it's all said and done.

1414
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 2: Totally what an inspiration.

1415
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you Clev.

1416
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 1: You're very welcome.

1417
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 2: Where can we find you on social media?

1418
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 4: I'd say where I'm the most active is on Instagram

1419
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 4: and my Instagram handle is official the Fifth, It's all

1420
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:42,120
Speaker 4: just regular spelling, Official the fifth. On Twitter, I'm official,

1421
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 4: and then the number five and then thh. My YouTube

1422
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 4: channel is fifth. As you might have guessed, that's where

1423
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:47,960
Speaker 4: I'm at.

1424
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for talking to us. This

1425
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:50,240
Speaker 2: was great.

1426
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 3: Thank you woo we love Fifth, We love Fifth.

1427
01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:58,560
Speaker 2: I would like to ask you now, Megan, if you

1428
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 2: would join the Jehovah Witnesses.

1429
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:05,440
Speaker 3: Fuck no, no, they are my worst nightmare.

1430
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:07,440
Speaker 2: Why Megan? Why?

1431
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 3: Okay? Number one just boring.

1432
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 2: Pretty boring. Yeah, no fun music, no holidays, no voting, what,

1433
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 2: no being class president in third grade, no soccer, no promotion.

1434
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:23,040
Speaker 5: No.

1435
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:25,960
Speaker 3: It kind of reminds me how I was raised and

1436
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:27,480
Speaker 3: barf hate.

1437
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:29,920
Speaker 2: By the way, this episode is the first time I

1438
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 2: learned that you didn't celebrate holidays. Oh my gosh.

1439
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:38,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, no getting blood, no getting an organ,

1440
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 3: like I'm for sure gonna need an organ at some

1441
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:42,520
Speaker 3: point in my life.

1442
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:46,840
Speaker 2: Number two, No, you're forgetting Jehovah's witnesses. Let you get

1443
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 2: an organ transplant now, so you're now fine?

1444
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:50,840
Speaker 3: Okay, fine, I'll join it.

1445
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:51,320
Speaker 5: No.

1446
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:56,600
Speaker 3: I don't know why, but but this particular cult just

1447
01:06:57,040 --> 01:07:00,240
Speaker 3: really I hate it. I really hate it, and it's

1448
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:00,760
Speaker 3: fucked up.

1449
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:03,480
Speaker 2: I just feel so much like I relate to this

1450
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:05,960
Speaker 2: group because it does. There are just so many I

1451
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:07,600
Speaker 2: wasn't naming them as we are going because that would

1452
01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:10,600
Speaker 2: be annoying, but there were so many things where I

1453
01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:14,520
Speaker 2: was like, same with Mormonism, same with Mormonism. Mormonism, it's

1454
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:16,800
Speaker 2: just very very similar religion. So I feel other than

1455
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 2: the holiday Mormons love holidays, I was gonna say, I feel.

1456
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 3: Like Mormons are just like have pretty normal lives, Like

1457
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 3: they get to wear makeup and like celebrate Christmas and

1458
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 3: listen to me dance and shit.

1459
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:32,040
Speaker 2: It's more about the beliefs and the like guilt, yeah

1460
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:35,080
Speaker 2: or whatever. But they don't necessarily have as much of

1461
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:38,920
Speaker 2: a clear system for cutting people out, although I have

1462
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:41,800
Speaker 2: heard I have heard lots of stories about families disowning

1463
01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:45,439
Speaker 2: their kids because they had sex or because they were gay.

1464
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:47,640
Speaker 2: You know, there are lots of stories like that within

1465
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:50,440
Speaker 2: Mormonism too, But I do I don't think the practices

1466
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 2: are quite as harmful. I think generally, if you need

1467
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,080
Speaker 2: medical help, you're supposed to get it, so that's good.

1468
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 2: This one's so interesting for me because I feel like

1469
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:01,720
Speaker 2: I wouldn't typically refer to them as a cult because

1470
01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:05,440
Speaker 2: they have so much in common with mainstream religions in

1471
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:08,280
Speaker 2: a lot of ways. But a lot of ex members

1472
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 2: call them a cult and think that they're a cult.

1473
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:11,080
Speaker 3: I'm gonna call it a cult.

1474
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess just because there isn't

1475
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:15,320
Speaker 2: one man at the top and there's a team at

1476
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:17,759
Speaker 2: the top, I think maybe that's part of what trips

1477
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:19,639
Speaker 2: me up. But I still think that there are lots

1478
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:21,920
Speaker 2: of abusive practices in place, and we didn't get into

1479
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 2: it a lot. But the stuff about covering up child

1480
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:26,120
Speaker 2: abuse is pretty fucked up. But you could say the

1481
01:08:26,120 --> 01:08:27,840
Speaker 2: same about the Catholic Church. And nobody calls the Catholic

1482
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:29,280
Speaker 2: Church a cult. So I don't know, you.

1483
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 3: Know, you know what I'm going to do it today,

1484
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:38,320
Speaker 3: the Catholic Church, it's a cult. Oh just kidding. Please

1485
01:08:38,360 --> 01:08:39,720
Speaker 3: don't yell at me Catholics.

1486
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:43,559
Speaker 2: I will say that this pope is kind of dope though.

1487
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:44,439
Speaker 2: I like this Pope.

1488
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:45,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's cool.

1489
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:49,080
Speaker 2: We keep forgetting to put our social media at the

1490
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:51,639
Speaker 2: end of our episodes, so I'm not gonna forget today.

1491
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:52,799
Speaker 3: Don't forget.

1492
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 2: You can find me Lola on Instagram at Ula Lola

1493
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:58,639
Speaker 2: oh h l A l o la and on Twitter

1494
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:01,719
Speaker 2: at oh La Lola Oha and our website is trust

1495
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:03,160
Speaker 2: Me pod dot com.

1496
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:06,320
Speaker 3: Ooh, and you can find me on Instagram at vibe

1497
01:09:06,360 --> 01:09:07,400
Speaker 3: hire betch.

1498
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 2: Today we are not going to go out on our

1499
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:12,280
Speaker 2: regular song. We're gonna go out on fifth song on

1500
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 2: my Way.

1501
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:15,519
Speaker 3: Thank you guys so much for listening. We will talk

1502
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:18,240
Speaker 3: to you next week, and remember to follow your gut

1503
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:19,120
Speaker 3: watch out.

1504
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:22,760
Speaker 2: For advice and never ever trusting me.

1505
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,679
Speaker 5: Hi. Hey, coming from where I was raised, I knew

1506
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:27,679
Speaker 5: I'd be on the stage.

1507
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:29,000
Speaker 1: I know I was in the cave.

1508
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:32,639
Speaker 5: Crowds and tribulations was all the day, trying to follow

1509
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:35,599
Speaker 5: the trail when really I should have blazed. Was beyond

1510
01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:37,840
Speaker 5: my age, when this shit was hard to gauge, trying

1511
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:40,200
Speaker 5: to fit in the box field. I was shrinking my brains.

1512
01:09:40,320 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 5: I could tell myself established I had a shrinking my brains.

1513
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:45,760
Speaker 5: Let me take over the world. Why watching Piggy and brain?

1514
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:48,439
Speaker 5: I ain't have jacksonber some washing this to my name.

1515
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:50,760
Speaker 5: Saw the wrappers on the screen I was watching, was

1516
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:53,320
Speaker 5: in the change. I started watching the chains. I'm thinking,

1517
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:55,760
Speaker 5: I want to rap what people was so ashamed? Hey,

1518
01:09:55,760 --> 01:09:57,479
Speaker 5: we was say that's from the devil like kind of

1519
01:09:57,600 --> 01:10:00,320
Speaker 5: washing my brain. I started watching the game. I said,

1520
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:02,519
Speaker 5: it's something wrong with this picture and with this frame.

1521
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:04,760
Speaker 5: I don't want to be a slave. Something wrong with

1522
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:06,880
Speaker 5: this change. And they tell me I should smile. I'm

1523
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:07,479
Speaker 5: feeling a.

1524
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:09,400
Speaker 1: Lot of pain. How we are gonna be the same?

1525
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:11,760
Speaker 5: Let them know them on my way the clouds is

1526
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:14,280
Speaker 5: less great. I see the sun shine and I'm starting

1527
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:16,840
Speaker 5: to feel the brains. Sell them on my way. Now

1528
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:19,240
Speaker 5: I can see a plane. You know, the sky's the limit.

1529
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:21,400
Speaker 5: I'm starting to see the plane. Let them know I'm

1530
01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:23,439
Speaker 5: on my weight had to be wild my brain.

1531
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:24,800
Speaker 1: I thought I knew it at all.

1532
01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:26,880
Speaker 5: I had to alter my claim to sell them on

1533
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:29,360
Speaker 5: my way for the bet out and change. You can

1534
01:10:29,439 --> 01:10:31,320
Speaker 5: look at where I'm at, but don't forget from where

1535
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:31,720
Speaker 5: I can.

1536
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:33,880
Speaker 1: Let them know I'm on my way. Coach spot.

1537
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:37,040
Speaker 5: Had to overcome a whole lot no stops, too much

1538
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:40,200
Speaker 5: drive for them, road flops. My old thoughts was controlled.

1539
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:42,559
Speaker 5: That's a cold plot. See, y'all just had to change

1540
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:45,719
Speaker 5: your heart. This is post stop waking up like being born,

1541
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:48,439
Speaker 5: learning how to walk pretty soon how to run. I'll

1542
01:10:48,479 --> 01:10:50,960
Speaker 5: be flying when I'm done running. Duk they and all

1543
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:53,760
Speaker 5: they see where I'm coming from. One to want never fall,

1544
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:56,479
Speaker 5: even when the summer done. It ain't no question in

1545
01:10:56,520 --> 01:10:58,400
Speaker 5: the signs of my heart. I saw the light and

1546
01:10:58,479 --> 01:11:00,479
Speaker 5: had to cry in the dark cause it this is

1547
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:02,600
Speaker 5: that divide in my heart line and y'all trying to

1548
01:11:02,600 --> 01:11:04,599
Speaker 5: fight it right from the start. It ain't no difference

1549
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:06,799
Speaker 5: between my body and my birth. And then I struggle

1550
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:08,559
Speaker 5: out here trying to live my life in this heart.

1551
01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:11,040
Speaker 5: Get right to these bars. My light shine and brought.

1552
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:11,360
Speaker 2: It to start.

1553
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:14,400
Speaker 4: I'm hungry for more opportunities right in my door. I'm

1554
01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:16,439
Speaker 4: learning fast. Remember I ain't never been here.

1555
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:19,280
Speaker 1: Let them know on my way. The clouds is less gray.

1556
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:21,599
Speaker 5: I see the sun shine and I'm starting to feel

1557
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 5: the gray. Selling on my way. Now i can see

1558
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:26,799
Speaker 5: it plane. I know the sky's the limit. I'm starting

1559
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:28,920
Speaker 5: to see the plane. Let them know I'm on my weight.

1560
01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:31,439
Speaker 5: Had to rewind my brain. I thought I knew it

1561
01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:33,599
Speaker 5: at all. I had to alter my claims to sell

1562
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:36,040
Speaker 5: them on my way for the bet out and change.

1563
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:37,960
Speaker 5: You can look at where I'm app but don't forget

1564
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:38,680
Speaker 5: from where I can.

1565
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:41,080
Speaker 1: Let them know I'm on my way. The clouds is

1566
01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:41,599
Speaker 1: less gray.

1567
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 5: I see the sun shining and I'm starting to feel

1568
01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:46,439
Speaker 5: the brains. Sell them on my way. Now i can

1569
01:11:46,479 --> 01:11:48,760
Speaker 5: see it plane. I know the skis a limit. I'm

1570
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:50,840
Speaker 5: starting to see the plane. Let them know I'm on

1571
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:53,400
Speaker 5: my weight. Had to rewid my brain. I thought I

1572
01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:55,519
Speaker 5: knew it at all. I had to alter my claim

1573
01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:57,760
Speaker 5: to sell them on my way for the bet out

1574
01:11:57,880 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 5: and change. You can look at where I'm mapping, don't

1575
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:03,600
Speaker 5: get from where I can Yo Dril