1 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:10,960 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. We have a classic episode here 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: for you today. It originally published seven thirty one, twenty 4 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: twenty five. It is my interview with Egyptologist, author and 5 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 1: educator Colleen Darnell about ancient Egyptian religion, warfare, and of course, 6 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: vintage fashion. This is a real fun chat, so let's 7 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: go ahead and jump right into it. 8 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 9 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 10 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb, and today I'm chatting with Egyptologist 11 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 1: doctor Colleen Darnell, author and co author of multiple books 12 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: on ancient Egypt, who many of you may know from 13 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: her vintage Egyptologist Instagram account that's vintage underscore Egyptologist, and 14 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: her popular Zoom classes on various Egyptology topics. So about 15 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:09,559 Speaker 1: further ado, Let's jump right into the interview. Hi Colleen, 16 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: welcome to the show. 17 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 3: Hello, I'm so happy to be here. 18 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: A lot of your work, I'm thinking about your excellent 19 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: Instagram feeds, but also your Zoom classes. This work is 20 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: aimed at making learning about hieroglyphics and Ancient Egypt more accessible. 21 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: How did these projects come together and how's it going? 22 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 3: I have always felt like one of my main goals 23 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 3: as an academic is to take all of my research, 24 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 3: to take the scholarship that has been done in Egyptology 25 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 3: for well over one hundred years and make it something 26 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 3: that people can understand, while at the same time not 27 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 3: leaving off the nuance. I feel like a lot of 28 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 3: times things get oversimplifying, and I don't think that's fair either. 29 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 3: So I've been very lucky through Instagram and just because 30 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 3: I was on a lot of documentaries before, to be 31 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 3: a part of Lost Treasures of Ancient Egypt on the 32 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 3: Natio Channel and a lot of other documentaries, and with 33 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 3: the lockdowns and COVID, I started a Zoom Egyptology program 34 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 3: teaching how to read hieroglyphs in twenty twenty one. I 35 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 3: have been doing that ever since and the program has 36 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 3: grown tremendously. Hundreds of people from twenty countries have taken 37 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 3: hieroglyphic courses and even more the lecture classes. 38 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: Wow, and what does the experience level tend to be 39 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: for folks taking your classes? Are there a lot of newcomers? 40 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: Are there academics, people in college and so forth. 41 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 3: It's really everybody. I even have a genius eleven year 42 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 3: old who takes the hieroglyphic classes, and it really runs 43 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 3: from high school students. Occasionally I do get someone who's 44 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 3: actually studying in a program for a master's or bachelor's 45 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 3: and just wants a little bit more hieroglyphic experience or 46 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 3: is particularly interested in a top of them offering is 47 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,679 Speaker 3: a lecture class, say something on magic and religion or not, 48 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 3: nor the pre dynastic periods, something that they can't get 49 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 3: as part of their program. So it has actually supplemented 50 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 3: some people's actual academic coursework. And then just a tremendous 51 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 3: amount of people adults, and they're working, they have kids, 52 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 3: they want to take zoom classes, or they're retired. And 53 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 3: I love it when sisters or husbands and wives do 54 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 3: it together. It's a lot of fun. It can become 55 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 3: a family experience awesome. 56 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: So especially I'm guessing with newcomers and general audience folks, 57 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: what are some of the key preliminary ideas you like 58 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: to stress about ancient Egypt and or the ancient Egyptian 59 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: language when they enter into these classes in terms. 60 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 3: Of the language. The first thing that I always have 61 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 3: to stress is that no matter how artistic each individual 62 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 3: hieroglyph can be, and they truly can be miniature works 63 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 3: of art, the majority of signs are phonetic in usage. 64 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 3: So there are signs that are direct representation or word signs. 65 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 3: There are signs that are classifying signs that we called 66 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 3: determinatives that have no phonetic value, But the majority that 67 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 3: you see in a hieroglyphic inscription are going to actually 68 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 3: write the sounds of the ancient Egyptian language. And what 69 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 3: I do in the hieroglyphic classes is take people from 70 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 3: that very beginning and then build up bit by bit 71 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 3: by bit. I think sometimes people are a little surprised 72 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 3: about grammar, because you expect Greek and ancient Latin, you're 73 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 3: going to have to memorize a lot of grammar, and 74 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 3: the same is true with Egyptian, although in some ways 75 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 3: the grammar is a little bit less complex simply because 76 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 3: of the way the conjugation system works. In terms of 77 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 3: the lecture classes, something that I try to always stress 78 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 3: is the ancient Egyptian civilization was not perfect. No civilization 79 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 3: ever has been or will be but their ideal was 80 00:04:55,640 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 3: something called mod cosmic justice, define balance and order, and 81 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 3: their sense of not basically right and wrong is shockingly 82 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 3: similar to our own. And so even if they didn't 83 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 3: live up to that idea, it's really interesting and very 84 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 3: important and very rarely emphasized the extent to which the 85 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 3: Egyptians wanted to follow this moral code and prided themselves, 86 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 3: from kings all the way down to farmers that they 87 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 3: acted in a morally upright and compassionate way to both 88 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 3: people who were in positions of authority. But they also 89 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 3: talk about giving bread to the hungry, taking care of 90 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 3: the orphan and the widow. And then because it's ancient Egypt, 91 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 3: they talk about farrying the boatless person. And there's a 92 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 3: word boatless that's actually a single word in ancient Egyptian. 93 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,359 Speaker 3: So in terms of the writing, the phonetic aspects, and 94 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 3: in terms of overall ancient Egyptian civilization, emphasizing something that 95 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 3: I think the ancient Egyptians themselves would really want us 96 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 3: to have as the first thing we know when we 97 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 3: are approaching their history and society and religion. 98 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: Now, I was looking at a book that you co 99 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: wrote with John Coleman Darnell, Egypt's Golden Couple when Agnatan 100 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: and Nephertidi were gods on earth, explores the impact that 101 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: this ancient power couple had on the Egyptian kingdom. Can 102 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,679 Speaker 1: you give us just a little taste of this? How 103 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: did this couple change the world. 104 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 3: One of the unusual aspects of the reign of Achnan 105 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 3: and Efertini is the extent to which they concentrated political, religious, 106 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 3: and economic power in their capital city of Ahadaden and 107 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 3: seem to have been directly responsible for the main religious rituals. 108 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 3: Where in the tombs even of the High Priest of Aten, 109 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 3: we don't see the high priest doing his day to 110 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 3: day activities or directly worshiping the God, which is what 111 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 3: we would expect both before and after the reign of 112 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 3: Aknan and Effertiti. Instead, we see the royal family worshiping 113 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 3: Otten and going about their day to day lives, which 114 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 3: are themselves transposed into this ritual setting. What this means, then, 115 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 3: is that not nevertit have interposed themselves between people and 116 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 3: the gods. And while a king is supposed to mediate 117 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 3: between mankind and the celestial realm, it is to facilitate 118 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 3: that interaction. People in ancient Egypt could make prayers, could 119 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 3: address the gods directly, even outside temple ritual. What's unusual 120 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 3: then about Acnan and Evertiti is the extent to which 121 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 3: they put themselves in that role of gods to be worshiped, 122 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 3: and then they can interact with the ultimate solar deity, 123 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 3: who is Atten. 124 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 4: Now. 125 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: I love the way that this book opens up discussing 126 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: examples of just very contradictory historical interpretations of Aknaton and 127 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: his queen Nefertiti. You know, on one hand, just a 128 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: savior that changes the world for the better, like almost 129 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,679 Speaker 1: like a Jesus or Buddha type figure, as you discussed, 130 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: and then on the other hand views that that he's 131 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: an incestuous, twisted monster that brings a reign of terror. 132 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: Why have these two been viewed in such extreme ways 133 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: and where where does the truth seem to lie? 134 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 3: Some of those extreme perspectives on Achnaton and Neverertidy have 135 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 3: to do with the chronological development of scholarship, So a 136 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 3: lot of the christ Like interpretation of Achnaton is earlier 137 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 3: in the twentieth century. James Henry Breasted Arthur Weigel, and 138 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 3: as you move forward in time, there is an increasingly 139 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 3: cynical perspective, and I think it had reached at certain 140 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 3: points a true fever pitch of Achnant as twisted monster. 141 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 3: And we diagnose this essentially as a problem with not 142 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 3: going back to the primary sources, and that when you 143 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 3: do go back to the primary sources, a lot of 144 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:15,319 Speaker 3: scholarship still relies on interpretations of earlier Egyptologists. And one 145 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 3: of the best examples of this, and the longest chapter 146 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 3: in the book, is there's an inscription from the very 147 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 3: beginning of within the first five years of Achnaton's Raim, 148 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 3: where all earlier translations, in every single reference to this 149 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 3: text was that the gods, the statues of the gods ceased, 150 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 3: they stopped. But that doesn't make sense. The ancient Egyptians 151 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 3: know that statues don't move. Now, rituals can stop, statues 152 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 3: can fall down, but the Egyptians wouldn't expect a statue 153 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 3: to move, So how could a statue just stop? And 154 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 3: as it turns out, it's a much more common verb 155 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 3: a homophone that means to desire. And what I'm not 156 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 3: is actually he's saying, is that he's doing what the 157 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 3: gods desire. Now, ultimately he's only going to do what 158 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 3: Auton desires and deny the existence of other gods. But 159 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 3: in that particular text, he's not yet as radical as 160 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 3: he's going to be. But because when you're looking at 161 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 3: the ragin of Aknaton, almost everybody looks at him through 162 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 3: the perspective of what's happening then in their own time. 163 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 3: And that's been true ever since people have discussed Acnaton 164 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 3: effertity or assumptions that have previously been made, And where 165 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 3: we thought we could really contribute to the scholarship of 166 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 3: achnan In and effertity was re examining every single primary 167 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 3: source and questioning the exact meaning of every word in 168 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 3: order to arrive at new conclusions that might have been 169 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 3: missed simply because of the bias of this is how 170 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 3: the word has been translated, this is how it must 171 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 3: continue to be translated, and not thinking, wow, there might 172 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 3: be a totally different way to view this particular action. 173 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: That's fascinating. But I thought I might might go ahead 174 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: and ask, what does the name mean Anton, how do 175 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: we translate this? 176 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 3: The first word in Achnaton's name is this root ach 177 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 3: that means luminosity or effectiveness, and those two concepts are 178 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 3: related in ancient Egyptian because of the very fact that 179 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:29,959 Speaker 3: sunlight causes changes, and they were well aware of bad 180 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 3: effect The next that n actually means four, it is 181 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,559 Speaker 3: a preposition, and Aten is the name of the god. 182 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 3: So if we were to break it apart in ancient 183 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 3: Egyptian grammatical terms, it would be Ah and Aten and 184 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 3: the vowels themselves. The fact that is ah n aten 185 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 3: Achnaton rather than achnatone with an oh at the end. 186 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 3: They didn't write the vowels in Egyptian in what sounds 187 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 3: like vowels when I say ah, for example, that awe 188 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 3: is actually not a vowel. It's an olive, which is 189 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 3: a semi vocal consonant, and that that can get a 190 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 3: little bit confusing, but that's the best sort of approximation. 191 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, we when we cover ancient Egyptian topics on the 192 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: show here, I feel like I'm always wrestling with exactly 193 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: how I should be saying any any particular name, like 194 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: even with some of the more well known gods, like 195 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: is it ray, is it raw? Is there like a 196 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: set of agreed upon standards an Egyptology today there isn't. 197 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 3: So ray raw. Both are the same in terms of 198 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 3: how you're going to see or pronounced the awe or 199 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 3: a is that we say actually comes from an ion. 200 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 3: So if you're pronouncing the ion correctly, say in Arabic, 201 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 3: then you're getting a little bit closer to the ancient Egyptian. 202 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 3: But because that's a sound that doesn't exist in Indo 203 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 3: European languages, we just budget and do a vow. But 204 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,199 Speaker 3: when you're reading hieroglyphs, you not only look at the 205 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 3: hieroglyphs themselves, but before you get to an English translation, 206 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 3: we do an extra step, and it's an artificial step. 207 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 3: It's not something the Asian Egyptians would have done, which 208 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 3: is called transliteration. So they are actually specific characters. A 209 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 3: lot of them are just consonants in you know that 210 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 3: we have R B M and those day the same 211 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 3: before these sounds that don't exist, say in English, although 212 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 3: they do exist in other Afroasiatic languages, there are particular 213 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 3: characters that you use. So when we're actually looking at 214 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 3: something written that's mostly agreed upon and consistent, but everyone 215 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 3: pronounces it a little bit differently and it doesn't because 216 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 3: it doesn't affect the clarity of what we're actually saying. 217 00:13:50,480 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 4: It tends not to be a big problem. 218 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: Now, as you're also co author in the book Tutan 219 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: Commons Armies, I thought i'd ask a couple of ancient 220 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: military questions. When it comes to the aesthetics often associated 221 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: with ancient Egypt, I've always found that that kepche sword 222 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: very striking, this kind of long curved sickle like blade. 223 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: I think you know, no matter you know where the 224 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: listener falls into the Egyptology Egyptomania sort of spectrum, they've 225 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: probably seen some depiction, be it realistic or exaggerated, of this, 226 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: and it may, I guess, be easy to just look 227 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: at it as being like overly stylized. But what was 228 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: the purpose of this design and how is it used? 229 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 3: The ancient Egyptian hepesh sword looks like a sickle as 230 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 3: you say, it's very striking aesthetically, but the cutting blade 231 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 3: is actually on the outside. This is a weapon that 232 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 3: we first really see come into common use in the 233 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 3: New Kingdom. There are several examples buried in the tumb 234 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 3: two uncommon, including one smaller one that has a sharper 235 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 3: blade that might have been used a little bit more 236 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 3: as when you would use a sword the other a 237 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 3: larger habesh sword has more of a chisel like blade. 238 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 3: It might have been used more like like an axe, 239 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 3: not something that would have had as much slicing power 240 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 3: as a sword. There are also thinner, rapier type swords 241 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 3: that were probably used by chariot tears, but those are 242 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 3: relatively uncommon in the archaeological record. 243 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. I found all this fascinating because I guess, you know, 244 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: from like a you know, modern and then European perspective, 245 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: we look at these weapons and we think about them 246 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: in terms of tools or weapons that we're familiar with, 247 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: like the sickle or like the sword, when the way 248 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: you describe it, Yeah, maybe an axe is actually a 249 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: better comparison to make here. Now you mentioned the chariot, 250 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask a question about the chariot as well, 251 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: because I feel like this is such an icon of 252 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: ancient Egyptian art and certain you see it and depictions 253 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: of ancient Egypt be accurate or not, and I often 254 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: feel like this is a technology that we're very far 255 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: removed from in the modern world, you know, Like, how 256 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: do we look at the chariot and how do we 257 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: appreciate it, you know, in comparison to things like maybe 258 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: a person riding a horse on a modern saddle, or 259 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: you know, some manner of kart. Can you tell us 260 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: just a little bit about how important the development of 261 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: the chariot was to ancient Egyptian warfare. 262 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 3: The cherio comes into Egypt about sixteen hundred BC, and 263 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 3: domesticated horses, possibly a little bit earlier, so it takes 264 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 3: quite some time to go from the domestication of the 265 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 3: horse around four thousand BC on the steps of Kazakhstan 266 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 3: all the way into the ancient Erees. Horses and chariots 267 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 3: transform warfare into ancient Egypt. It becomes the third branch 268 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 3: of the Egyptian military. They had a very well developed 269 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 3: infantry and navy. And because that adoption of the horse 270 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 3: around sixteen hundred BC coincides with the expulsion of the 271 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 3: foreign dynasty ruling over the northern part of Egypt, the 272 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 3: so called Xos dynasty, they are expelled around fifteen fifty BC, 273 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 3: and at that point, with the founding of the New Kingdom, 274 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 3: the Egyptians make a decision to expand their empire both 275 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 3: to the north and to the south. They had to 276 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 3: the south before, but they go even further and to 277 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 3: the north, not only to gain resources and greater access 278 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 3: to trading routes, but also to have a buffer zone 279 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 3: so to prevent further foreign conquest. So there's a number 280 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 3: of reasons for that empire, and the chariot is part 281 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 3: of that. The big set piece battles of the Bronze 282 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 3: Age are battles bought between chariots with infantry support. You 283 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 3: mentioned how we conceptualize ancient battles and ancient weapons through 284 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 3: comparisons with what we know, right, and sometimes you will 285 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 3: read I don't think this happens as much anymore, but 286 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 3: that the chariot was like the tank of the ancient world. 287 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 3: And that's not true at all, because horses do not 288 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 3: like to crash into one another, nor will they run 289 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 3: in charge into infantry, and certainly you don't want to 290 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 3: do that with the chariot because chariots were very expensive. 291 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 3: That's another interesting aspect of the move towards chariot warfare 292 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 3: in the Bronzes is it's a warfare for highly developed 293 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,479 Speaker 3: and wealthy civilizations because you have to be able to 294 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 3: invest in the horses themselves. The pasturage, the training facilities, 295 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 3: training the crews building the chariots. They were the really 296 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 3: advanced vehicles, advanced technology of the dead and the use 297 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 3: of a chariot in battle is as a mobile archers platform. 298 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 3: So there are other civilizations. For example, they Hits who 299 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 3: fight against the Egyptians at this famous Battle of Kotash 300 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 3: during the reign of Ramsey's the second. The Hittites view 301 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 3: the chariot or have outfitted their chariots with three people, 302 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 3: essentially more like mobile infantry and moving people from one 303 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 3: place to another and then fighting more as ground troops. 304 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 3: The classic Egyptian chariot, which was much lighter, you could 305 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 3: carry it. A single person could carry the cab of 306 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 3: the chariot. It's remarkable, and with the archers inside the 307 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,199 Speaker 3: cab and then one person driving, you could essentially deliver 308 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:44,959 Speaker 3: projectiles all across the front of the opposing force and 309 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 3: then circle back around and then the infantry could be 310 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 3: brought in. 311 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 1: Wow. So it sounds like if one were too roughly 312 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: compare it to some piece of modern military technology, it 313 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: would actually maybe be more accurate to compare it to say, 314 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: like a jet fighter or something, or or obviously not 315 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: in the air, but more of a certainly a ground 316 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: attack scenario, but in terms of being something expensive, mobile 317 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: and arranged in nature. 318 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 3: I like that comparison. 319 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 1: Well, thank you, Yeah, You've given me a whole new 320 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: way to think about the chariot here. Now, a number 321 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: of our listeners here in Stuff to Blow your Mind 322 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: are film fans, and I was excited to see that 323 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: you have conducted zoom classes on ancient Egypt as depicted 324 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: in film. So I have a couple of questions about this, 325 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: starting certainly more on the Egypt Domania side of things. 326 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: Do you have a particular guilty pleasure from Egypt Domania cinema? 327 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 3: I do like some movies set in ancient Egypt, although 328 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 3: I would say less guilty pleasure only because the ancient 329 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:57,479 Speaker 3: Egyptians themselves cast their history in entertaining fictional terms. In 330 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 3: a book I wrote in twenty thirteen called in the Past, 331 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 3: I identified four works of ancient Egyptian historical fiction, meaning 332 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 3: they actually wrote the fiction set three hundred years for example, 333 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 3: Rain of Ramsey's the second about twelve fifty, and then 334 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 3: they're setting something three hundred years two or three hundred 335 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 3: years earlier. I think the Incigypians would appreciate at least 336 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 3: that people are trying now some of those details, yes, 337 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 3: very annoying, And that's actually one of the reasons why 338 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 3: I decided to teach the class is not so much 339 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,479 Speaker 3: enjoying all the movies, but using them as a jumping 340 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 3: off point, because the visual nature, the dialogue that sets 341 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 3: the characters, everything about that gives you a starting point 342 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 3: for them saying, Okay, what about this is accurate? What 343 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 3: about this is based on something but has been manipulated 344 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 3: in a way that actually works to support the story 345 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 3: and doesn't go against generally what we know about ancient 346 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 3: Egypt and where is it just flat out wrong and 347 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 3: they should have never done it? So that was that 348 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 3: was how I approached the class, and the ancient Egyptian 349 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,479 Speaker 3: film was so much fun to prepare. We did we 350 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 3: did mummy movies, we did epics, so Cleopatra, Tank Commandments, 351 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 3: and then some movies that are much less well known, 352 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 3: such as the Polish film Pharaoh, which is by far 353 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 3: the best in terms of costumes and sets. Costumes especially 354 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 3: it's incredible, and those were designed by an Egyptian costume 355 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 3: set designer and director named Shandy Aptol Salam and so 356 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 3: I highly recommend the Polish film Pharaoh. 357 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: Oh wow, this is so this is from nineteen sixty six. Yes, excellent. Yeah, 358 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: I have not seen this, but this looks this looks remarkable. 359 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: Now I'm a film that I know that you're a 360 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: fan of. I wanted to ask about as well, because 361 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: I was not familiar with this. I have to admit 362 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 1: to my own inexperience with Egyptian cinema as an actual 363 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: Egyptian cinema. Yeah, I was very interested in mentioned of 364 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: this nineteen sixty nine film, The Night of Counting the Years. 365 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about this film 366 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: and why it's important. 367 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 3: Absolutely. It's also called The Mummy, so a couple of 368 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 3: different titles there. And it was directed by Shadi Alta Slam, 369 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 3: the same man who did the costume signs for Pharaoh, 370 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 3: and he also did some costume designs for Cleopatra for 371 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 3: the Great Makowitz Disaster that is Cleopatra, although sadly many 372 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 3: of them were not incorporated as much as they should 373 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 3: have been into the movie. Night of Counting the Years 374 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 3: is a fictionalized version of what happened in the eighteen 375 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 3: eighties with an Egyptian family living on the west bank 376 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 3: of Luksar called the Abbatol Rassuls, and they had found 377 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 3: a royal cachh, so not just a single royal tomb, 378 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 3: but a place where dozens of mummies from the New 379 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 3: Kingdom in early Third Intermediate period had been re rammed 380 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 3: and then cashed put into a single burial, which is 381 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 3: a little bit to the south of the Temple of 382 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 3: hotch Episode at Jarl Bahri and John and I actually 383 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 3: got to go down there. It's not open to the public. 384 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 3: It had not been opened, i think for fifteen years. 385 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 3: They knocked away the concrete and we got to go 386 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 3: down there to film an episode of Lost Treasures of Egypt. 387 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 3: It was one of my favorite experiences. So it is 388 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 3: absolutely it's based on a real event, although the names 389 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 3: are changed in shadiavol Salam's movie. And the Egyptologists, the 390 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 3: French Egyptologists who were in charge of the antiquity service 391 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 3: at the time, had realized that this was going on, 392 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 3: that some royal too have been found because various antiquities 393 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 3: were popping up on the market, and two of the 394 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 3: brothers turned on one another, and that's how everything was 395 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 3: found out and then the material was taken in much 396 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 3: haste from Luksor to the Chiro Museum the Bulock Museum 397 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 3: in Cairo at the time, and that was news all 398 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 3: over the world, very very dramatic, and the mummies ended 399 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 3: up being the mummies of the New Kingdom pharaohs. So 400 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 3: those are the mummies that you can see now beautifully 401 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 3: displayed in the National Museum of Egyptian Civilization. Through the 402 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 3: movie Night of County in the years then, Shady Alda 403 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 3: Salam uses this movie as a commentary on the view 404 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 3: of the past by the present and doing this through 405 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 3: the lens of neorealism. The other part that I really 406 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 3: loved about this movie and the context of my Ancient 407 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 3: Egyptian film class, is that there were ancient Egyptian tomb 408 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 3: robbers that actually moved the mummies from their original burials 409 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 3: into this cash it's called the Daro Bahri cash. And 410 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 3: those tomb robbers weren't working just on their own for 411 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 3: their own profit. They were actually sponsored by the Pharonic government. 412 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 3: At the end of the New Kingdom, the Varonic government 413 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 3: the king lost control over Nubia. There was a revolt 414 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,719 Speaker 3: by a Nubian general named Panahasse and because of that, 415 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 3: Egypt lost control over the main gold mining regions and 416 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 3: they needed the gold. There was an economic crisis at 417 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 3: the time and realized that there was lots of gold 418 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 3: to be had in the Valley of the Kings. And 419 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 3: so we know the names of the ancient too, Marbers. 420 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 3: We have their letters, three thousand year old letters talking 421 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 3: about keeping their activities private because even though they were 422 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 3: states sponsored, they still didn't want everybody else in their 423 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 3: village to know what was going on. So it's this 424 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 3: murder mystery scandal and it's their actual letters. It just 425 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 3: blows my mind. We even have one of the men's 426 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 3: houses in a temple. It's a man named Budahaman. So 427 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 3: the story both of what actually happened in the eighteen 428 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 3: eighties with the discovery of the cash, and the story 429 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 3: from three thousand years previously with how the mummies made 430 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 3: it there is incredible. 431 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 1: Oh wow, So the Night of counting the years? Would 432 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: you frame it as of what a neo realistic drama 433 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: like an art house drama? Certainly not, to be clear, 434 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: even though it is sometimes titled the Mummy is this 435 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 1: has nothing to do with supernatural mummy films. 436 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 3: Correct, So it is. It is absolutely a drama about 437 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 3: that family and about the relationships between the brothers, and 438 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 3: also coming to terms with the moral implications of robbing 439 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 3: ancient tombs. The mummy in the title. The term mummy 440 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 3: in the title references the ancient mummies that are then 441 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,719 Speaker 3: being used for modern profit for the family. And there 442 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 3: is murder, and so it's all of this family drama 443 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 3: but shot in just a beautiful, beautiful way. 444 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll have to check this one out. I think 445 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: in the past it's been featured on the Criterion channel, 446 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: but I'll have to hunt around to see where I can. 447 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: I can find it today now, serious Egyptology and entertaining 448 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: Egypt Domania share a history of a foreign interpretation in 449 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: both time and space, as well as as legacies obviously 450 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: of conquest and colonialism. Where do you feel like we 451 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: are today in terms of international fascination with and study 452 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,959 Speaker 1: of the ancient Egyptian world? What has changed and what 453 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: still needs to change? 454 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 3: It is amazing to see the new museum, the Grand 455 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 3: Egyptian Museum, which will be opening by the end of 456 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 3: this year, because I mean an international sensation. The largest 457 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 3: museum in the world dedicated to a single civilization. Half 458 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 3: of it, a little less than half of it is 459 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 3: already open. The grand staircase set in this dramatic architectural setting. 460 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 3: When you come up to the second floor, you have 461 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 3: one of the most beautiful vistas of the Giza Pyramids, 462 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 3: and then three entire galleries that take you through from 463 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 3: the Predynastic period all the way to the Roman era, 464 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 3: but in three different tracks, so you can look at 465 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 3: daily life, you can look at religion, and then the 466 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 3: king and the political system. And I just I think 467 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 3: that is so brilliant because you can go across them 468 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 3: then and look at all three features in the pre 469 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 3: Dynastic period or in the Middle Kingdom, or you can 470 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 3: essentially go through the chronology of Egypt three different times. 471 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 3: So even before the two oncomon material is open, and 472 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 3: again that should be the last quarter of the years 473 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 3: is where it's been announced. It is something that is 474 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 3: beautiful and such an amazing presentation of ancient Egyptian cultural 475 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,959 Speaker 3: heritage and history. The Tahariir Museum, the Egyptian Museum at 476 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 3: Taker Square is also should absolutely still be on everybody's 477 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 3: muscy list. Some of the most famous artifacts from ancient Egypt, 478 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 3: the normal Palette, the burials of Yuyuan Tuyas, the gold 479 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 3: from the Tanis tombs are still on display. So what 480 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:39,719 Speaker 3: I love about fascination with Egypt as it then is 481 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 3: bringing more and more people to Egypt. And I love 482 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,239 Speaker 3: that trend, and I love trying to be just a 483 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 3: little bit of a part of that trend, knowing so 484 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 3: many people who have been in my classes have then 485 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 3: gone to Egypt and seen all of this firsthand. But 486 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 3: there are more sites being opened every year and really 487 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 3: exciting places and tombs as well as these new museums. 488 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 3: And in terms of what needs to change, I think 489 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 3: it is the public fascination often with things that are 490 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 3: entirely unfounded in facts, and in terms of who constructed 491 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 3: the pyramids, how they constructed the pyramids, the date of 492 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 3: the Sphinx. We could go on and on, but that 493 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 3: I think is the thing about the fascination with ancient 494 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 3: Nusip that most needs to change is the primary sources. 495 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 3: And I think the story I told just now about 496 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 3: ancient tomb uppers that's way more exciting than anything that 497 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 3: is made up. So getting out there the actual information 498 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 3: that is so much more unbelievable in some ways than 499 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 3: just imagining, Well, people couldn't have built the pyramids, but 500 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 3: this much must have happened. Even we have not only 501 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 3: the names of the people who build the pyramids, the 502 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 3: barracks of the people who build the pyramids, and on 503 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 3: other pyramids and temples, the remains of mud brick ramps 504 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 3: which tells us exactly how they built the pyramids. And 505 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 3: a pampyrus journal found a little over a decade ago 506 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 3: by a French Egyptologist that is actually a diary of 507 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 3: the man who brought some of the stones that were 508 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 3: the last stones put on the top of the Great Pyramid. 509 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: Okay, as we're reaching the end of the interview, I 510 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: have to ask a couple of vintage clothing questions, because 511 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: you are, of course per Instagram, the vintage Egyptologists. A 512 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: lot of listeners know you from that Instagram account, Vintage Egyptologists, 513 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: Vintage underscore Egyptologists. Could you tell us how your passions 514 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: for vintage clothing and ancient Egypt lived together on the speed. 515 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 3: I love being able to put vintage fashion in ancient 516 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 3: Egypt together because it helps not only me get doing 517 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 3: express it of my main fashions in both topics, but 518 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 3: also use the visual medium of Instagram as well as 519 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 3: the general interest in fashion to present a lot of 520 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 3: details about ancient Egypt. And I can do that both 521 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 3: through my reels where I'm actually explaining hieroglyphs and talking 522 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 3: about an ancient Egyptian topic very specifically, or use the 523 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 3: visuals of a particular item of vintage fashion, whether it 524 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 3: be in nineteen thirties evening down or in eighteen fifteen 525 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 3: Empire style dress and then discuss how this might relate 526 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 3: to ancient Egyptian fashion or just a jumping off point 527 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 3: for another topic. My interest in vintage fashion actually comes 528 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 3: from a little bit different place than my interest in 529 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 3: ancient Egypt, and it's a coincidence that my favorite soloette 530 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 3: happens to be the same decade that the tumor to 531 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 3: uncommon was discovered. Through vintage fashion and collecting. That's also 532 00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 3: given me new perspectives on studying ancient Egyptian fashion and clothing, 533 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 3: and I'm in the process of doing some additional work 534 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 3: on how there might be an interaction between the way 535 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 3: fabrics are used, for example, in the nineteen thirties, and 536 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 3: how that might inform the way a single rectangular piece 537 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 3: of cloth could be wrapped around the body and maybe 538 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 3: have a different silhouette than is often imagined. 539 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,240 Speaker 1: And how about in the field, do do vintage fabrics 540 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: hold up well? If you were a say, you know, 541 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: exploring a tomb or out in a desert environment. 542 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 3: Out in the field, I wear, the vintage clothing I 543 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 3: wear in the field are typically seventies, eighties, nineties khakis 544 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 3: and tons, and I mean every now and then it'll 545 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 3: be something new, but pretty much for that it's used 546 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 3: clothes out in the field. And where in attention to 547 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,240 Speaker 3: vintage makes a difference is just being able to check 548 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 3: absolutely certain that what you were wearing is one hundred 549 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 3: percent con because even two percent of an artificial fiber 550 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 3: in one hundred and twenty degree heat makes a huge difference. 551 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:13,360 Speaker 3: So looking for those older fabrics can be really important, 552 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 3: But what is mostly about is just the composition of 553 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 3: the fabric and that it has to be one hundred 554 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,839 Speaker 3: percent cotton. Linen is also pretty cool, but cotton is 555 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 3: cotton is always the best and light colored fabrics, so 556 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,439 Speaker 3: that that's the connection with the field, But otherwise it's 557 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 3: it's used clothes, not vintage clothes for the archaeological work. 558 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: All right, I want to zoom back out and ask 559 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: a broader question here. I've been asking about the Egyptomania 560 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: serious interest in ancient Egypt. I feel like all of 561 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: the sesus at one point or another, like you know, 562 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: maybe we watch a Mummy movie when we're a kid, 563 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: but then that leads to a more serious interest in 564 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 1: ancient Egyptian topics. So when did any of this season 565 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,240 Speaker 1: you for the first time, and how did you decide 566 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 1: to pursue egyptology as your profession. 567 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 3: I've been interested in ancient Egypt ever since I was 568 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 3: a child. I know that's a really common phenomenon, a 569 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 3: little less common to pursue it professionally. It was really 570 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 3: from reading books, and a lot of it was looking 571 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 3: at images of hieroglyphs and really wanting to be able 572 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 3: to read them. So that was the driving passion, was 573 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 3: wanting to read hieroglyphs, wanting to read the cursor version 574 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 3: on the virus hiratic and I have been so lucky 575 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 3: to be able to do that and pursue it. And 576 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 3: I decided to pursue it professionally when before I applied 577 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 3: to Yale university and then going for my bachelor's and 578 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 3: my PhD. And it's been amazing then getting to not 579 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 3: only have taught in a university environment, but also now 580 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 3: to be able to take that love of teaching and 581 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 3: people's love of learning and do it in such a 582 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 3: pure way where there aren't any grades, there isn't any pressure, 583 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 3: and you just get to have fun and learn. And 584 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 3: I love that about my Zoom classes and what I'm 585 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,280 Speaker 3: able to do now. 586 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: Well, speaking of your Zoom classes, for listeners who are 587 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: interested in these, who want to learn more about ancient 588 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 1: Egypt and hieroglyphs in the ancient Egyptian religion, among other topics, 589 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,759 Speaker 1: where can they learn more? Where can they find more 590 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: information about these classes? 591 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 3: You can find me on Instagram as you mentioned before, 592 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 3: at Vintage Underscore Egyptologists, and my website Colleen Darnell dot com, 593 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 3: which is where I put up information about my classes, 594 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 3: and you can subscribe to my newsletter and be the 595 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,800 Speaker 3: first to find out. And I am excited to announce 596 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,800 Speaker 3: that in September I will be doing a news section 597 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 3: of how to Read Unit one, and that is a 598 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 3: five hour class. It meets one hour a week for 599 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 3: five weeks, and it goes from the very basics of 600 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 3: how to read hieroglyphs all the way to being able 601 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 3: to read a funerary formula, so that even if you 602 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 3: only do five hours of Ancient Egyptian, you can make 603 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 3: an Ancient Egyptian spirit happy. I mean, yeah, I teach 604 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,320 Speaker 3: everyone enough hieroglyphs, so obviously, and then you can continue. 605 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 3: I have students who have been doing this for one year, 606 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 3: two years, all the way from the beginning of four 607 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 3: years ago, and they can read entire literary texts, not 608 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 3: only in hieroglyphs, and religious texts not only in hieroglovehs, 609 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 3: but directly from put hyarate. So it's not like you 610 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,760 Speaker 3: just do a couple things and then oh, there's nothing 611 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 3: more to move on to you. Really it's a serious program, 612 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 3: and when you get to the upper levels, it's the 613 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 3: same sort of work you would be doing in a 614 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:43,399 Speaker 3: university setting. In terms of lecture classes. For those people 615 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 3: who don't want to dive into or necessarily learn a 616 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 3: new language, the lecture classes don't require any previous knowledge. 617 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 3: And the next one coming up is going to be 618 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 3: on demons and exorcism and magical practices which will be 619 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 3: a lot of fun and will be some direct ancient 620 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 3: Egyptian spells and talking about what a demon really is 621 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,760 Speaker 3: in Ansian Egypt because it might not be what everybody thinks. 622 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: Oh well, I know that we have listeners that are 623 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,320 Speaker 1: going to be very interested in that. Well, excellent, Colleen, 624 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show with me today, taking 625 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,240 Speaker 1: time out of your day to chat about ancient Egypt, 626 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 1: hieroglyphs and all of these exciting opportunities. 627 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,400 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed 628 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 3: this conversation. 629 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: Thanks again to doctor Colleen Darnell for taking time out 630 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: of her day to chat with me. This one is 631 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: a real treat. Again. You can follow her on Instagram 632 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: at Vintage Underscore Egyptologist and learn more about her classes 633 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 1: and books at her website Colleen Darnell dot com. Oh hey, 634 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: and I have one more thing to add here. In 635 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: post production, Colleen asked that we passed this along. If 636 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: you've ever wondered what is fact and what is fiction 637 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 1: about Indiana Jones and his quest for the Arc of 638 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 1: the Covenant, Well, you can tune in to her ninety 639 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: minute webinar our Ancient Egypt at the Movies Indiana Jones, 640 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 1: This is going to meet live on Zoom on Thursday, 641 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: August twenty first, from two to three thirty pm and 642 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: eight to nine thirty pm US Eastern Time. It's going 643 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,240 Speaker 1: to be a vividly illustrated presentation. She's going to introduce 644 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:20,359 Speaker 1: you to the first recorded Egyptian archaeologist, real ancient tomb robbers, 645 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 1: and the intact royal tombs that were found at Tennis. 646 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: So it sounds like a good time. You can find 647 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 1: out more about that at her website. Just a reminder 648 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 1: to everyone out there that Stuff to Blow Your Mind 649 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: is primarily a science and culture podcast with core episodes 650 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays wherever you get your podcasts. On Fridays, 651 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: we also set aside most serious matters to discuss a 652 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 1: weird film on Weird House Cinema. Thanks as always to 653 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: the excellent JJ Possway for producing the show, and if 654 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: you'd like to get in touch with us, drop us 655 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: a line at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 656 00:40:53,840 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: dot com. 657 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 658 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 659 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 2: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows