WEBVTT - Brazil’s Lula Has Brain Surgery 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:06.760 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:12.119 You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:14.960 weekdays at ten am Easter on Apple car Playing and 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:17.919 Broyd Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:22.720 wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube. 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.920 The other really amazing story that we've heard of the 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:28.960 last twelve hours is what happened over in Brazil. 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:30.160 So President Louis. 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:36.159 Lula underwent emergency brain surgery and is now awake and 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.479 conscious in the ICU. Apparently he'll stay in the hospital 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:41.680 for about forty eight hours. We want to get more 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:45.680 on this on the ground with Danielle Carvallo, Bloomberg Government reporter. 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:47.720 Can you just walk us through the chain. 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:49.720 Of events that has happened and let us here and 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:51.760 kind of what this does to the government. 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:58.560 Hey, are you well, Lula? In October Lula was at 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:02.080 tom and he fell and hit his head. After that 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:06.639 he was submitted to some exams. He was doing well, 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:09.800 but last night, by the end of the day he 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:13.120 started with some headache and he decided to go to 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:16.959 the hospital here in Brazilia, the capital uh And after 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:21.200 some exams, they found there was a hemorrhage, and decided 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:24.640 to transfer him to Saint Paulo where you have a 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:29.640 better uh better hospitals there. Uh and well, and he 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:35.119 underwent surgery in in the morning they announced much more 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:39.440 complex surgery. Uh tranny outo meat. But then and at 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:43.480 a presser they explained it was trapping where they used 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:47.480 a drain to to drain the blood that was between 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:51.120 the skull and the and the brain, and doctors saying 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:52.440 he is now well. 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:53.280 Uh. 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:57.920 He will spend forty eight hours in the intensive care units. Uh, 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:00.360 but he will spend the whole week at the hospital 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:01.720 just for precausion. 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:05.640 Was there an actual transfer of power to his vice 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:07.720 president during this process. 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:11.720 No, Gerald WelCom and his vice president, he was in 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:14.400 San Paolo. He would have some agendas there, but he 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:19.240 traveled back to Brazilia and he will replace Lula and 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:22.760 house in Slovakia's Prime minister Robert Fikeel who's here today 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:26.600 but as a vice president, So Lula, there was no 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:28.079 transfer of power yet. 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:31.239 When nevertheless, when you see these headlines, it does come 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:34.680 as quite a shocker. What is the political backdrop aac 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:38.120 and I'm a backdrop of Brazil right now? 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:41.920 Well, Lula seventh is a seventh nine year old man. 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:45.920 He will be eighty one and twenty six, he will 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:48.480 when he intends to run again for Present for a 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:52.720 fourth term. And what happened, what is happening hah Now, 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:58.280 what happened in October and what happened today brings us 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:01.359 a big question mark on his polytical future. Will he 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:04.480 be able to run for present in two years? And 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:09.880 age became something very difficult in politics, especially after what 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:13.679 happened to Joe Biden in the United States. And there 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:17.040 isn't a clear successor for Lula in Brazil. There are 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:20.720 some people that brings the name of his finance minister 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:26.760 Fernanda daddy. And actually he is having some leading uh 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.760 in the country. Two weeks ago he was the star 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:35.080 of address on TV to announce suspending cut package to 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:36.160 the nation. 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.320 All right, Danielle, thanks so much, Yeah, thank you so much, Danielle. 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:43.200 We appreciate getting your reporting there, Danielle Carvallo. He's a 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:47.680 government reporter for Bloomberg News in our Brazilia, euro which 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:51.160 I forgot was the capital of Brazil. I would have 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:53.200 just said South Powell or something. 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:58.600 You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.600 weekdays at ten am. E's there on applecar Play and 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:04.600 royd Outo with a Bloomberg Business Act. You can also 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:08.240 listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:12.080 Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:15.280 All right, let's get back to boy the other news 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:17.359 story that it certainly transfixed, I think not only New 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:19.560 York City, but kind of the country here and knows 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:22.440 that the murder of that senior executive of United Healthcare. 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:27.040 And now we have the arrest in charging of the suspect. 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:33.040 Hel Michelle Cortez Joints is here, Bloomberg, Senior editor covering healthcare. Michelle, 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:36.000 We've seen all the news, We've seen the tape. We 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:39.760 now have a murder suspect. How about from the other perspective, 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:42.360 how about the perspective of the company. How's the company 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:45.960 been reacting to this news again, the tragic loss of 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:48.040 one of their senior executives. What have we heard from 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:48.920 United Healthcare? 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:52.360 Well, it's absolutely been a crisis for the company. It's 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:55.599 a crisis not only in terms of the individual person. Right, 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:59.279 they have lost a senior executive, so a person that 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:01.120 many of them were co those two. Also, they have 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:04.480 a hole for the company that they need to fill. 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:08.600 But also there's this huge ground swell of animosity towards 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:12.680 the industry and they have to grapple with that as well. Honestly, 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:15.040 what we have heard from the beginning is that they 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:16.920 were shocked when this happened. I don't think this was 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.640 on anyone's being go card for twenty twenty four and 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:23.960 they just didn't know how to react initially when this happened. 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:28.080 The first things that we saw was increased security at 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.599 the United Health campuses in Washington and Minneapolis and in 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:34.640 New York, and we have seen them taking executives off 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:37.240 of their web pages that type of thing. But in 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:40.840 terms of actual communication to the outside world, there's been 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:44.359 exceedingly little from United Health, and even internally, some of 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:48.159 the reports that we have seen have essentially downplayed the 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.479 situation and told employees to not really pay attention to 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:55.520 social media, to not take this outpouring to heart. They 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:57.120 do have an awful lot of work that's going to 0:05:57.160 --> 0:05:59.200 have to come. They have not yet done it, and 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:02.039 it's going to be interest to see how it plays out. 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:04.359 There's really not an awful lot that they can do 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:09.880 at this point, given how much antagonism, animosity, and straight 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:13.600 up hatred towards the company from people who have suffered 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:15.840 in terms of not being able to get the kind 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:18.599 of health care and coverage. 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:18.880 That they've needed. 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:22.400 I think that it's been really shocking for many people, which. 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:24.640 Is so surprising because you would have thought when you 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:26.520 have a tragic event like this, it would be the 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:29.920 opposite that you'd see an outpouring of support, right, and 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:33.280 that's just not been the case. How has it reflected 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:37.440 in United health but also just in other companies as well, 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:40.720 like there was a debacle with Anthem last week and 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.359 paying and enthusiologists. 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.560 Right, Absolutely, this is not something that's specific to United 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.600 Healthcare at all. It is something that comes from the 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:51.120 health insurance industry. 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:52.599 Obviously. 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:55.719 The way these companies operate they do when you talk 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:57.719 to them about it. What they're doing is they're trying 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:01.520 to make healthcare more efficient, more afordable, making it possible 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:03.679 for people to get access to the care that they need. 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:05.720 But in fact, the way that a lot of them 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:10.240 make money is by reducing the expenditures for healthcare insurance. 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:14.040 And then again, not specific to g United Healthcare. We've 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:18.160 seen other companies dial back there in person appearances. They've 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:20.520 had executives pull back events that were going to be 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:25.240 public that we're closed, moved online. Everyone is reevaluating their 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:27.880 security at this point, and the way that they move 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:31.480 forward at this point is just uncertain. How you can 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:36.120 actually rectify something that is systemic to the industry. This 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.400 is how it operates. So they're going to need to 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:40.640 rethink and how they go forward. I don't think that 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:42.760 they know yet. They're still trying to figure that out. 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:47.480 Red headline just crossing the Bloomberg Terminal, Saudi's piff PIF 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:51.560 said to near deal to invest in PGA Tour Enterprises. 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:53.320 So we'll have some more reporting on that for our 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.240 golf fans out there. And Michelle, you know, I think 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:58.240 when this news first broke, we said, you know, the 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:03.240 headlines were United Healthcare CEO, but we came to learn 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:05.760 later that it was a CEO of a subsidiary, not 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.800 the overall global CEO. And some people were saying, how 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:12.800 could a CEO not have security, But again, he wasn't 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:15.880 the CEO of the entire corporation, just of a subsidiary. 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:18.920 I guess they have to rethink some of their security 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:23.240 for some of their mid level executives and leadership as well. 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:24.400 Right. 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:30.440 Well, let's so, Brian Thompson was the CEO OFED of 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:34.360 United Healthcare, which is not United Health Group, right, It 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.760 is the insurance subsidiary which is the biggest of United 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.640 health If you actually line that up with other SMP companies, 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.240 it is one of the biggest. It would be independently. 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:46.559 Is kind of like, you know, the economy of California 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:51.600 or Texas is a massive, massive company. He made ten 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:54.280 million dollars a year. I mean, this is not a small, 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:56.880 low level person. It is shocking that he didn't have 0:08:56.960 --> 0:09:00.920 any kind of security. Many people don't have security. I mean, 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:02.920 you can drive up to his house. It is I 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:05.240 used to just live down the road from them in Minneapolis. 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:08.840 It is a lovely, lovely home, but certainly not gated, 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:14.720 no restrictions around it. And I don't think that people 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.959 in this industry realized the animosity. And again, no one 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:21.480 thought that this could have ever possibly happened, and so, 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:25.000 you know, not maybe low level employees, certainly, I think 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:27.599 everybody who's affiliated with the industry at this point is 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:32.079 rethinking their own security, their own you know, morality, their 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:34.679 own you know, how they're working forward with what they 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:38.000 do professionally, but in terms of security, this is an 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:40.880 area where everybody is reaching out now. They absolutely have 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:41.839 to get this square. 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:45.760 Away, Michelle, what could be changes that the industry could 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:49.959 take to sort of mitigate this animosity like that? I'm 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:51.960 sure we could list a lot of issues, but what's 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:54.160 like a main issue that needs to be really looked 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:54.920 at and corrected. 0:09:57.600 --> 0:09:58.880 It's such a good question. 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:01.959 It really does go to the fundamentals of the industry itself. 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.440 The way that it works is insurance companies put up 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:08.760 hurdles to make sure that people are getting the appropriate 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:13.079 care and only the care that they need. And sometimes 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.440 the argument is is that they're going too far, and 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:18.240 we're seeing these reports coming out on social media, people 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.200 talking about how they haven't had access to care, how 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:25.240 they have been turned down for policies for their kids, 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.400 their family members, their loved ones. There was a huge 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:33.720 outrage about how United Health particularly was using artificial intelligence 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:38.680 to turn down insurance requests, and then they make people 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:41.440 and doctors jump through these hoops over and over in 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:45.240 order to get access to these kind of what many 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.160 people would say, arguably are things that should be covered 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:50.360 and it is just part of the process. Now, we 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.800 could certainly see some type of a reconsideration of that. 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:55.640 I don't know that they would want to be doing 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:58.800 anything like that, and this current moment, right you don't 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:01.840 want to actually respond in any way that might be 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.280 giving kind of fuel to the fire of the people 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:09.080 who are coming out against the industry. So I would imagine, 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:11.160 you know, in the weeks and months to come, we 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:15.280 might see some kind of reaction in terms of prior authorizations, 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.520 in terms of denials, in terms of appeals, in terms 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:20.320 of these boards that they have that are set up 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:22.679 to actually evaluate whether people should be covered or not. 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:24.760 All of those things I'm sure are going to be 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:25.920 under consideration. 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:29.040 Hi, Michelle, thank you so much. We appreciate that. Michelle Cortez, 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:32.559 a senior editor covering in the healthcare for Bloomberg News, 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:36.120 coming to us from our Washington, DC bureau. You put 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:40.880 up the stock of United Healthcare. You NH is the ticker. 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:46.240 You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:48.959 weekdays at ten am Eastern on e FO. Card playing 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:52.080 droyd Otto with the Bloomberg Business app Listen on demand 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:56.439 wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube. 0:11:57.679 --> 0:11:59.800 It was the news that we heard all around the 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:03.680 world weekend. Of course, Asad's fall in Syria just putting 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:06.439 the world in the Middle East into much more chaos, 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:08.640 and we wanted to break down what to expect, what 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.440 some key smilestones a hard to look at with Ned Lazarus, 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:16.280 Associate Professor of International Affairs over George Washington University, what's 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:18.439 the TikTok? What's a timeline that you're going to be 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:20.800 watching to judge the state of Syria? 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:28.240 Well, Syria is multiple things happening at once. It's been 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.960 multiple wars within a war. There are things we have 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:36.679 to watch. One is the establishment of post war governance. 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:41.440 Are the rebels led by the faction Hayataharrira Sham able 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:46.000 to establish a functioning transitional government. They have nominated a 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:50.800 prime minister who was governing their sort of self administered 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:55.320 zone in northwestern Syria before, Ahamad al Bashir is his name. 0:12:56.400 --> 0:13:03.960 They have ordered the state offices to continue functioning. They've 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:08.120 asked the government to continue working. They have also crucially 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:14.680 declared amnesty for you know, regular soldiers of the regime, 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:19.240 meaning they're not going to arrest people who were fighters 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:22.920 in the Syrian army, in the regime's army, and that's 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:27.160 that's an important declaration of intentions, though they have said 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:33.120 that they will absolutely attempt to prosecute leaders, both military 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:40.040 and political, who were responsible for the horrific atrocities committed 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.560 by that regime. That's one one area to watch, But 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:47.160 there's also a lot of military action continuing in Syria. 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:57.120 Israel has undertaken several hundred attacks attempting to destroy essentially 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:01.160 the arsenal of the Syrian army. Today, the Israeli Navy 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:04.760 and Air Force destroyed the Syrian naval fleet in the 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:11.040 port city of Latakia, and chemical weapons facilities, research facilities, 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:16.400 weapons storage facilities are being bombed from the air all 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:22.000 across the country by the Israelis. There's also another war 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:26.880 within a war in Syria, which is in the north 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:32.280 where Turkish forces and Turkish backed Syrian forces are fighting 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:36.600 Kurdish Syrian forces, and that has been going on for 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:42.200 a while, but that is also escalating right now. And finally, 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:46.480 we have our own deployment of US troops in the 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:51.800 desert in central eastern Syria where they are have been 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.840 stationed for years to try and prevent the re emergence 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.880 of ISIS. Now, when you have a total breakdown of 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:03.360 order like this, that's fertile ground group like ISIS to reconstitute, 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:06.480 takeover territory, et cetera. So the US forces right now, 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.760 the administration has said we're going to keep them there 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.240 in order to try and prevent ISIS from reconstituting. 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:14.560 What do you think the do we have any indication 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:18.240 what the income incoming Trump administration, what its policy may 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.520 be to Syria Syria, given what we've just seen over 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:22.520 the last few days. 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:26.000 Well, I guess the best indicator for a Trump policy 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:32.800 is his Twitter account, right or truth social His post 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:37.120 on this issue was that this is none of our 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:39.720 you know, this is not our our business and we 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:44.920 should stay out. And I imagine that he's aware that 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.920 we have nine hundred troops there and that you know 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:52.240 that ISIS was a problem for us and you know, 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:56.840 probably would be again. But that was that was his 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:01.400 statement on it. Another important dementia, and you know it 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:05.680 was Russian forces that Russian and Iranian forces and has 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:09.760 Belah of course that helped asad uh, you know, retake power. 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:10.360 Uh. 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.920 Just a few years ago, and Russia had cultivated Syria 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:18.240 as its strategic base in the Middle East. It had 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:23.000 you know, ships in the port of Latakia on the Mediterranean, 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:26.800 and you know, good amount of air air force at 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:31.440 station in Steria for a time. But the Russian ships 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:38.480 are reported to have left the port of Tartus in Syria. 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:42.800 So that is another thing to watch, is whether Russia 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:46.600 makes an effort to retain its foothold and influence in 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:49.880 the country or whether because it's so preoccupied with the 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:53.680 Ukrainian War, it has really you know, it's ready to 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:54.200 see that. 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:57.440 All right, Well, we appreciate that. Thank you very much 0:16:57.920 --> 0:16:58.600 for the update. 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:02.320 D Lazar, Associate Professor International Affairs at George Washington University. 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:04.520 And in the markets, Paull, it's just obviously, how do 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:06.240 you price to you a political risk? Like no one 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:07.920 had on a bingo card that this was going to 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:10.639 happen on the geopaul sector, So like how do you 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:13.240 price it? And in some ways many analysts say, we've 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:15.720 just become very complacent in how he priced to you 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:16.400 apolitical risk. 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:18.120 Yeah, and you see that in the oil market, which 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:19.880 I know you follow closer to you know, Brent still 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:21.960 at seventy two dollars a barrow. Didn't really see any 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:25.840 major spike here, so we'll keep an eye on that. 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:31.359 You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence podcast. Catch us live 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:34.960 weekdays at ten am Eastern on applecar Play and Android 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:37.760 Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:41.000 live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.080 Just Say Alexa, playing Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:46.280 We bring you all the top news in business, economic 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:48.800 and finance. There are lens of our Bloomberg Intelligence folks, 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:50.960 and if we're lucky enough, sometimes we get to tap 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:55.800 the amazing c suite outside of Bloomberg Intelligence and get 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:58.840 their take on the real economy and what's happening with 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:01.159 their business. More enough to have one of them with 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:02.840 us right now. So, for those of you who don't know, 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:08.000 Glencore is a metal behemoth. They basically produce and trade 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:11.280 all the metals that everyone needs in daily life, whether 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:15.200 you're looking at a transition metal like lithium or something 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:19.440 straight up like copper. They also have a recycling business 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:22.199 that maybe lesser known. They like to recycle end of 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:25.800 life Electronics, lithium. I own batteries and other critical metal 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:28.359 containing products which will be key by the way in 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:30.639 the energy transition, as we just run out of the 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:33.320 stuff in the ground. So we're lucky to be joined 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.760 now by Kunal Sinha. He's a global head of recycling 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:38.120 over at Glencore. 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:41.920 Kunall, thanks for joining us. How has the Glencore. 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:44.760 Recycling business changed over the last sort of few years? 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.080 Like where were you guys? Where are you guys now? 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:52.359 Thanks Alex, thanks for having me. Yeah, I think it's 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:55.439 a less known part of Glencore. I would say over 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:57.639 the last four or five years, it's changed in a 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:02.040 few different ways. Increasingly the recycling, if you think about 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:05.720 recycling traditionally, is a very linear sort of value chain 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:09.200 activity like everything else used to be. I think it's 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:13.040 headed more towards a circularity sort of concept, so it 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:15.520 will still be recycling, but the focus is how do 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:18.119 you put those critical metals that you recycle back in 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:21.200 the loop into the battery supply chain or the auto 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:25.160 supply chain, or copper back into the green manufacturing supply chain. 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:27.879 So that's sort of one change and then the other changes. 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:33.320 We are pretty pretty substantially present in the copper value chain. 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:36.240 With we recycle things like end of live electronics. We've 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.200 been doing that for since the eighties. We've been recycling 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.240 lithium and batteries for twenty years. I think the other 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:43.880 thing that changed is we've made a lot of investments 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:48.280 in the lithium and battery space, especially recognizing the need 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:52.919 to recover lithium, the need to handle large battery packs, 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:55.040 the need to address the fact that there will be 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:57.120 a lot of giga factories they already are and will 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:00.080 be that will produce a lot of scraps. So just 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:02.439 keeping an eye on the industry and how it's changing 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:06.800 and hence how our recycling business needs to change to address. 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:11.040 And then some of the more near term recent areas 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.879 that we are adapting to, our recycling of solar panels, 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:19.720 recycling of electric motors from electric vehicles. So we're always 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:23.280 keeping an eye on the next big pile of post 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:26.960 consumer stuff that comes along, and we'll make sure we 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:29.639 stay ahead of the game in terms of getting it 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:30.520 and recycling it. 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:33.400 Can you give us a sensitive to what extent kind 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:37.600 of just industry wide recycling is impacting the supply of 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:39.480 the metals we need and use. 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:43.880 Yeah, I think it varies by metals. If you look 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:46.680 at copper, which is a bell weather metal and very 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:49.119 heavily talked about, no matter whether you look at the 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:52.880 green aspect or energy transition or just simple AI which 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:55.159 will need a whole huge amount of electricity, and hence 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:57.320 the great copper is always in need. If you look 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:00.240 at copper, you know, it's roughly a little less than 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:02.960 thirty million terms a year of defined supply twenty eight 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:06.840 twenty nine. Of that already, about six to seven million 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:10.879 every year comes from recycled sources, so it's not insignificant. 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:14.480 When you look at some of the other medals like nickel, cobordi, lithium, 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:17.840 they're not as far along as copper, but there had 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:21.400 been a lot of posh so those metals, the recycled 0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:23.600 portion is coming, especially in Comora, there's a lot of 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:26.879 recycled supply now. So it's you know, it's a function 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:30.600 of how important the metal is, how much post consumed 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:33.920 post manufacturing feedstock is on the market to be able 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:37.199 to be recycled. So copper just benefits from being a 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:40.560 very mature and old sort of if I can call 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:44.400 it met some of the newer medals will get there with. 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:49.640 Time gonell is recycling for Glencore a profitable bulb business. 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:54.280 Yeah, it's a good question for us. Yes, it's a 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:57.920 profitable business. We've we've shared some numbers in the past. 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:00.919 I mean through the cycle we make somewhere between two 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:04.880 hunred and fifty million ABIDUK contribution from our recycling business, 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:08.280 which is recycling a whole bunch of these things. Of course, 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:11.320 compared to glend Courzoni, that's a very small fraction. But 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:14.880 if you look at any independent recycling company, I think, 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:17.000 you know, you'd be hard pressed to find too many 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:20.919 with that level of profitability as a pure play recycling company. 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:26.600 Any reason to believe that the recycling I guess trends 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:28.960 in the metals business broad they'd find. Will that change 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:30.919 with a new administration coming in? Do you believe? 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:34.720 Don't think so. 0:22:34.760 --> 0:22:37.760 I mean we've been looking at recycling for in North 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:41.399 America over the last you know, thirty forty years, so 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:44.720 we've been through a lot of changes in administration, policies, 0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:48.640 lens and then the good thing about recycling is it's 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:51.960 truly an evergreen business. It's sort of it hits some 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:55.040