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Speaker 1: Progress. Hello friends, I am so excited about today's guest.

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Speaker 1: We met many moons ago on Capitol Hill in Washington, DC,

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Speaker 1: and I think people might be pretty surprised that we

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Speaker 1: call each other friends today. I am joined by none

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Speaker 1: other than Adam Kinsinger. He has served in the Air

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Speaker 1: Force Special Operations Command, Air Combat Command, Air Mobility Command,

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Speaker 1: and the Wisconsin Air National Guard. He served as the

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Speaker 1: United States representative from Illinois from twenty eleven to twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three. The congressman is a member of the Republican

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Speaker 1: Party who originally represented illinois eleventh District and later the

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Speaker 1: sixteenth and He became known for his vocal opposition to

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Speaker 1: Trump's claims of voter fraud and attempts to overturn the

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Speaker 1: Democratic election results. Adam Kinsinger was one of the ten

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Speaker 1: Republicans who voted to impeach Donald Trump for the incitement

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Speaker 1: of insurrection in his second impeachment. He also voted to

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Speaker 1: create the Select Committee to investigate the twenty twenty one

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Speaker 1: United States Capital Attack, to which he was subsequently appointed.

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Speaker 1: Adam Kinsinger has written a book not only about his

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Speaker 1: experiences on January sixth, but about the history of a

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Speaker 1: party that he still counts himself a member of but

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Speaker 1: no longer really recognizes. The book is phenomenal, guys. I

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Speaker 1: read it cover to cover in a day and a half.

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Speaker 1: It's called Renegade, Defending Democracy and liberty in our divided country.

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Speaker 1: And in the book, Kinsinger tells the story of faith

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Speaker 1: service and his political duty in a democracy under siege.

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Speaker 1: You'll hear about his childhood, his service in the Air

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Speaker 1: Force flying missions over Iraq, and his final tumultuous term

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Speaker 1: in Congress as one of the few Republicans who voted

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Speaker 1: to hold the former president accountable for his attack on

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Speaker 1: American democracy. I cannot wait to dive into this conversation,

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Speaker 1: and I cannot wait for all of you to hear

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Speaker 1: Adam's perspective. Let's get to it, well, Adam, I have

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Speaker 1: so much I want to talk to you about, obviously

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Speaker 1: in terms of what's been going on in your life

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Speaker 1: in recent years. But I first like to start with

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Speaker 1: my guests and go back to the beginning, because you know,

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Speaker 1: most of the folks out in the world who know

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Speaker 1: you as this badass military career official and elected official

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Speaker 1: might not know where you began. So if we go

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Speaker 1: back rewind meet Adam. As a kid at let's say

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Speaker 1: nine years old, who were you? What were you into?

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Speaker 2: Man? So I was okay. So you know how like

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Speaker 2: every kid they have something that they're kind of interested

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Speaker 2: in that their friends aren't interested in, and yeah, it

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Speaker 2: kind of pretends like maybe what they're going to do

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Speaker 2: in the future. So for me, I lived in Jacksonville,

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Speaker 2: Florida when I was six years old, and I remember

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, kind of out of nowhere getting

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Speaker 2: interested in this may oral race that was happening. And

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Speaker 2: so since it was the eighties, a six year old, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I know and that and that's what I'm saying. It's

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Speaker 2: like a little unantual. But for me it was like

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Speaker 2: it wasn't that I was like, oh, government, But there

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Speaker 2: was this election in Jacksonville, Florida where the guy running

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Speaker 2: have hot pink yard signs because it's the eighties, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you have hot pink yard signs in the eighties.

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Speaker 1: That's very Miami vice too.

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Speaker 2: Actually, it totally was, especially because it's in Florida. So

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Speaker 2: I remember I'm asking my parents, you know, like what

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Speaker 2: is this and they explained like, oh, well, this is,

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Speaker 2: you know, a race, and all that kind of stuff,

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Speaker 2: and from there, I don't know. I just was kind

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Speaker 2: of hooked on the idea, like the fanfare of politics,

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Speaker 2: and then as I got older, I could start to

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Speaker 2: fill it in with policy. So I would say I

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Speaker 2: was kind of a bit of a nerdy kid on

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Speaker 2: some of that. But I was always trying to fit

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Speaker 2: in and pretend like I wasn't, you know, like I

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Speaker 2: didn't want to come across as the political nerds, so

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Speaker 2: I'd try to act cool and all these other but

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Speaker 2: deep down inside, i'd go home and you know, pay

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Speaker 2: attention to what the race results were and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: So and also at that age, you know, I was

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Speaker 2: I loved the military, I loved airplanes, and so all

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Speaker 2: this stuff kind of worked out in the long run.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty amazing. But I was raised. I was raised

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Speaker 2: and I left this but I was raised probably till

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Speaker 2: about college time frame, and a very strict Baptist church.

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Speaker 2: And I actually write about that a lot in my book.

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Speaker 2: Kind of the effect that that has. It's I would

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Speaker 2: consider an essence of cult. And it's actually interesting because

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Speaker 2: I can find a lot of parallels to today's Republican Party,

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Speaker 2: and but that you know, that had an impact on

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Speaker 2: me growing up and me leaving that kind of cultish

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Speaker 2: iron had an impact on me as an adult in

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Speaker 2: a good way, I think, so, yeah, I guess that's

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Speaker 2: how i'd explained myself. I was a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a weird kid. But you can kind of see if

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Speaker 2: you'd have met nine year old at and you can

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Speaker 2: kind of see what I was going to go do anyway.

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Speaker 1: Totally, I feel I really feel that in my own life,

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Speaker 1: you know, being able to draw some of the parallels.

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Speaker 1: When I was I think seven, I started telling my

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Speaker 1: mom she should pick me up from school at two

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Speaker 1: forty five, even though school didn't end until three, because

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Speaker 1: Oprah started it three, and I felt like I was

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Speaker 1: being much more educated by Oprah. And here I am

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Speaker 1: now like, you know so many people out here who

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Speaker 1: are inspired by her, who we host our own interview

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Speaker 1: shows now, And I'm like, yeah, okay, tracks, yeah, yea, yeah.

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Speaker 2: That works out. You are kind of an Oprah. You're

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Speaker 2: you're an Oprah. So you got that, you got a

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Speaker 2: flash of that when you were young.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's very kind. I think no one is Oprah,

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Speaker 1: but I see the inspirational trail, and yeah, I was.

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Speaker 1: I was also a nerdy kid clearly, so we would

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Speaker 1: have gotten along even as children. How do you think

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Speaker 1: you know when you say the strictness of the Baptist Church?

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm I'm going to try to ask you

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Speaker 1: questions as though I haven't read the book, so that

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Speaker 1: folks at home don't get confused as to what I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about. When you talk about how strict the Baptist

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Speaker 1: Church was, the first thing that comes to mind for

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Speaker 1: me is obviously that the military is a very strict

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Speaker 1: environment as well. So how do you think you began

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Speaker 1: to separate your identity from that as you say cultish

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Speaker 1: strictness of the church. And do you think subconsciously there

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Speaker 1: was something about a structure without religion that maybe felt

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Speaker 1: like the right kind of strictness for you going into

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Speaker 1: the military. Or do they feel separate?

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Speaker 2: No, they feel very separate, but like on the church side.

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Speaker 2: So the specific kind of brand of Baptists is called

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Speaker 2: independent fundamental Baptist. Now, you know, you as a Hollywood person,

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Speaker 2: you know like Footloose, Remember Footloose where it was like

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Speaker 2: you know, drinking dancing. This is that, Okay, I was

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Speaker 2: part of like that. You can't drink you can't, which

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Speaker 2: obviously makes us like in essence, drink more ultimately, because

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Speaker 2: you know, it's like a rebellion thing. So I think

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Speaker 2: what happened in that so it's a very strict environment.

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Speaker 2: My folks were not quite on board with that folly,

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Speaker 2: so I had a lot more kind of flexibility than

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Speaker 2: i'd say, kids, you know, my counterparts and like the

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Speaker 2: church would have. But it does. The thing is it

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Speaker 2: does teach you that everything is black and white. And

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Speaker 2: you see this today, particularly in Republican politics. Since I

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Speaker 2: speak the language, I can see when people talk about things,

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Speaker 2: or they can talk about things like globalism, which some

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Speaker 2: people think globalism is a euphemism for anti judaism. It's

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Speaker 2: actually not. It's for a lot of these people this

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Speaker 2: idea of a one world government and like the end times,

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Speaker 2: and and I can see that stuff. So everything is

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Speaker 2: black and white, which is why now they can look

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Speaker 2: at somebody like me and say Adam's working for the

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Speaker 2: devil because he's working against Arman Donald Trump, which, by

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Speaker 2: the way, we can discuss more, but blows me away.

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Speaker 2: And so I think through that process, you can't be

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Speaker 2: happy in that environment. I mean, you just can't. And

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Speaker 2: I think I rebelled really hard when I was sixteen

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Speaker 2: years old, started drinking heavily. You know, I went to

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Speaker 2: college and joined a fraternity and failed out of college

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Speaker 2: and had to come begging to get back in, and

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Speaker 2: I did, and I got straight a's after I got

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Speaker 2: back in. But you can see where that happens the military.

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Speaker 2: To me, it was so to an extent some of

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Speaker 2: the structure, and I think the black and white and

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Speaker 2: the right and wrong can come into play in the

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Speaker 2: early kind of interest in the military, because it's kind

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Speaker 2: of like, you know, we're gonna go we're gonna fight

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Speaker 2: this fight, We're gonna be We're going to fight for America.

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Speaker 2: But really, the thing that drew me in and and

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Speaker 2: actually made me make the official decision was nine to eleven,

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Speaker 2: even though I had started the process prior. And it's

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Speaker 2: actually interesting, So as a pilot, we are a little

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Speaker 2: bit not like your typical military. We're kind of Anybody

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Speaker 2: that's in the military that knows pilots will tell you

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Speaker 2: we're a pretty arrogant bunch. And the old joke is,

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Speaker 2: how do you know you're in the bar with a pilot,

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Speaker 2: because he'll tell you And and so you know, we were.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of a lot more lax so, but there

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Speaker 2: was definitely I would say that strict environment probably turned

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Speaker 2: me to it initially, but ultimately it was coming out

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Speaker 2: of that and learning who you are and coming to

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Speaker 2: grips with who you are and not being afraid of

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Speaker 2: who you are that I think refined me to the

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Speaker 2: to the better person. And I'll also say the military

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Speaker 2: did a lot in I think shaping particularly the last

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Speaker 2: few years of my career in Congress, because when I

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Speaker 2: got back from my RAQ and nine and I decided

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Speaker 2: to run for Congress, I remember thinking, look, if I'm

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Speaker 2: going to ask and I'm going to vote for, you know,

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Speaker 2: young people to be willing to go and die for America.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, when you go into politics, you

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Speaker 2: got to take those votes, even if the votes. Know,

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Speaker 2: You've got to take these votes of literal life and death.

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, if I'm if I'm going to be

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Speaker 2: willing to take those votes and ask young people to

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Speaker 2: die for the United States, I have to be willing

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Speaker 2: to give up my career for the same cause. Like

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Speaker 2: what a minor sacrifice to lose your job in Congress

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Speaker 2: compared to a nineteen year old with their whole life

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Speaker 2: in front of them losing their life, and that I

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Speaker 2: think that coming out of the military and that really

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Speaker 2: was something that stayed with me and in a good way.

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Speaker 1: Ultimately, Well, I would also you know, as a civilian.

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Speaker 1: But I will go ahead and say speaking of pilots,

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Speaker 1: the USO tours I've done have been on Air Force baces,

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Speaker 1: so I've been I've been in the mix a little

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Speaker 1: very pretty. They were pretty cool. I think there's also

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Speaker 1: a seriousness and a weight to being part of the community. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the same way that I feel solidarity

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Speaker 1: with union workers all across America and you know, laborers

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Speaker 1: around the world. You know, when we're striking as this

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Speaker 1: Actors Guild with the you know, pilots and the flight

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Speaker 1: attendance unions and ups like, we've really been able to

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Speaker 1: kind of lift the veil on this on this idea

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Speaker 1: of you know, what industries are are privileged or not

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Speaker 1: and be honest about what it means to be in

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Speaker 1: a union, what those protections offer. And I think about

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Speaker 1: the depth of service like yours, and when you are

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Speaker 1: willing to risk your life, when you are willing to

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Speaker 1: you know, leave home and family for these careers, and

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Speaker 1: you go and you work, you go and you fight

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Speaker 1: on the front lines as you did. You know what

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Speaker 1: we're fighting for both in I would say the way

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Speaker 1: America succeeds in being who it says it is, and

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Speaker 1: the ways we haven't quite lived up to our ideals

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Speaker 1: yet but we're striving to get there. And the seriousness

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Speaker 1: of that, the sort of moral weight of that, the

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Speaker 1: willingness to hold the dialectic, all these things that are true.

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Speaker 1: At the same time. You know that our democratic ideals

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Speaker 1: are some of the best on earth, and that we

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Speaker 1: haven't managed to make them all true yet. I think

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Speaker 1: that there is a profundity to that that makes your

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Speaker 1: service as an elected official probably mean more than you know.

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Speaker 1: Some of the folks we see in Congress currently who

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Speaker 1: enjoy being contrarian because they think it's funny and who

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Speaker 1: think that blowing up the country is their way forward.

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Speaker 1: They operate, you know, as you talked about your upbringing

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Speaker 1: in the particular brand of Baptism you grew up in.

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Speaker 1: They operate in this sort of fundamentalism, this chrysto fascism,

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Speaker 1: this and you know, this dream of being these American oligarchs,

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Speaker 1: which is so weird to me, by the way, because

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Speaker 1: they go out and they rally against other places, other cultures,

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Speaker 1: other countries. You know, particularly when you talk about nine

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Speaker 1: to eleven, the Islamophobia that comes from so much of

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Speaker 1: the right and the things they say about Islamic fundamentalism.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, y'all are doing. You're doing exactly what you say.

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Speaker 1: You're fighting here with Christian fundamentalism, and you're going against science,

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Speaker 1: you're going against democracy, you're going against the Constitution, and

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Speaker 1: you're making money to do it. Like you couldn't be

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Speaker 1: farther from anything in the pages of the Bible or

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Speaker 1: any holy book in the world. It's so weird to

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Speaker 1: me that it's become these sort of talking points where

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Speaker 1: people are owning each other. And it must have been

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Speaker 1: so wild to see it from the inside, because you

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Speaker 1: took the oath of an elected official, and you took

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Speaker 1: an oath to our military, like you know what the

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Speaker 1: core of these jobs are supposed to be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, that's let me hit the oath

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Speaker 2: thing real quick, because I think this is important. It's

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Speaker 2: like I had during all the January sixth stuff, I

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Speaker 2: would have so many members come up to me, particularly Republicans,

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Speaker 2: and say, hey, thanks for what you're doing. I can't

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Speaker 2: do it because you know, my district would be pissed

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Speaker 2: at me and all this stuff. Right Like, and by

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Speaker 2: the way, my district would be pissed at me too, right.

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Speaker 2: But the thing that's important to keep in mind is

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Speaker 2: when you take an oath, you don't take an oath

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Speaker 2: to and the fact this shocks people when I say it,

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Speaker 2: but you don't take an oath to your district. Like

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Speaker 2: if seven hundred thousand people that I represented would have

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Speaker 2: called me and said you need to vote against impeaching

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump and you need to not work on the

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Speaker 2: January sixth committee, it is a completely irrelevant opinion that

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Speaker 2: they have because when I took an oath, the oath

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Speaker 2: I took was to the Constitution. Right. There's a reason

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Speaker 2: we take an oath to the Constitution because our founders

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Speaker 2: knew there would be a moment, there would be a

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Speaker 2: day where that would compete and the idea of holding

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Speaker 2: up the Constitution would compete against the will of the people.

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Speaker 2: And in that case, you have to hold to this thing. So, yes,

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Speaker 2: have we've gotten things wrong in history? Absolutely? Are we

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Speaker 2: trying to strive to get better. Yes, are we ever

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Speaker 2: going to be perfect? Probably not. But you look at

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Speaker 2: the United States today compared to Russia, for instance, who's

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Speaker 2: just lost They throw human life away three hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifteen thousand Russian deaths in two years in the war

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Speaker 2: against Ukraine, when the United States of America lost twenty

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Speaker 2: four hundred in Afghanistan in twenty years, and we consider

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Speaker 2: each and every one of those lives precious. So for

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Speaker 2: then some of my colleagues to somehow talk about Russia

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Speaker 2: as this defender of Christianity is bs because that violates

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Speaker 2: every value I know that Christianity holds, and so I

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Speaker 2: think coming out of the military, and the interesting thing is,

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Speaker 2: sadly this doesn't translate to everybody that has ever served

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Speaker 2: in the military, because I can point to veterans in

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Speaker 2: Congress right now that frankly suck and they don't understand

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Speaker 2: that what the O with means. But I do think

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Speaker 2: there's a tent among veterans that recognizes you fought with

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Speaker 2: a team against a common enemy. Regardless of your opinions

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Speaker 2: of the world, you fought with the team against common enemy.

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Speaker 2: That team you fought with was very different. They came

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Speaker 2: from different backgrounds, different states, different in many cases, different religions,

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Speaker 2: different races, all fighting, all having each other's back and

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Speaker 2: working together even among differences. And I think there's a

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Speaker 2: lesson that, frankly, all of politics needs to take, in

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Speaker 2: my passion, frankly for the next I don't know however

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Speaker 2: many years, is to take all this preconceived notions we

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Speaker 2: have about politics and how it works and policies and

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Speaker 2: answers and problems and just ram dump all of it,

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Speaker 2: flush it all out, and start again. We need a

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Speaker 2: whole new way of thinking about politics. We need to

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Speaker 2: find real problems that we don't necessarily know are out

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Speaker 2: there that are out there, and solutions that we don't

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Speaker 2: know are out there that somebody has. So income inequality

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Speaker 2: is huge in this country, right We've tried raising taxes,

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Speaker 2: we've tried cutting taxes. We still have income inequality. I

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Speaker 2: don't know the answer to incoming equality, but somebody out there,

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Speaker 2: probably listening right now, has the answer. And that's what

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Speaker 2: we need to do, is get past our little egos

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Speaker 2: and thinking that we know everything. Yeah, look at the

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Speaker 2: collective again and get answers, like restart the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: Yes, God, wouldn't that be nice?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? And it wouldn't be an There's so much energy

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Speaker 2: out there, and we have been beat down by these

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Speaker 2: political leaders that are using us for profit, they're using

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Speaker 2: us for fame. Marjorie Taylor Green doesn't believe half of

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Speaker 2: the stuff she says, but she's famous and that's all

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Speaker 2: she wants.

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Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors who make this

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Speaker 1: show possible. Well, and that's I think such a danger

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Speaker 1: of our time. You know, people believe in the sort

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Speaker 1: of false gods of social media and likes and who's

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Speaker 1: you know, quote winning pr Wars. It's like, so it's

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Speaker 1: so detrimental and none of it's grounded in truth. And

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Speaker 1: I think what frustrates me, as someone who you know,

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Speaker 1: though not an elected official, has spent close to twenty

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Speaker 1: years as a volunteer in our political space, is trying

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Speaker 1: to make democracy cooler for young people, is is that,

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Speaker 1: I know what you're saying is true that so many

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Speaker 1: of these people who are out here behaving like shock

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Speaker 1: jocks from the congressional floor don't believe what they're saying,

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Speaker 1: but they know it's going to be popular on Twitter,

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Speaker 1: and that is galling to me, because I can't fathom

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Speaker 1: how we've lost the plot on the fact that we're

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Speaker 1: supposed to do this for each other. We're supposed to

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Speaker 1: be in this together. You know, even someone like you

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Speaker 1: talking to somebody like me, there's going to be a

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Speaker 1: lot of people who are shocked that we like each other.

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Speaker 1: And there will be people who say to me, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, how dare you interview him on your podcast

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Speaker 1: and this two years ago he voted in this way

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Speaker 1: that you don't agree with. Yeah, okay, so am I

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Speaker 1: supposed to throw the baby out with the bathwater? Aren't

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Speaker 1: we supposed to talk to each other and then maybe

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Speaker 1: begin to see more of each other's positions and perhaps

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Speaker 1: stand up for each other more and more across these

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Speaker 1: quote unquote lines across the aisle. I want to not

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Speaker 1: only believe in, but see what you're talking about, that

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Speaker 1: we might be able to build a new collective and

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Speaker 1: sit down and say, Okay, what do we know works?

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Speaker 1: Take your feelings and opinions out of it. What does

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Speaker 1: all the research show us? You know, I can't help

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Speaker 1: but think that when, particularly on the side of the GOP,

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Speaker 1: when their policies are wildly unpopular, they really like to

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Speaker 1: come for us. They like to come for the women.

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Speaker 1: You've got, Ken Paxton subjecting this poor woman in your

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Speaker 1: new home state of Texas to this awful overturning. She's

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Speaker 1: twenty weeks pregnant, wants to have this baby. It's not

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Speaker 1: going to live, and she's at risk of dying, you know,

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Speaker 1: and they're telling her she can't, at medical advice, have

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Speaker 1: an abortion to save her life. And I'm going, this

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Speaker 1: is what we're doing with our political power. You don't

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Speaker 1: want to talk about income inequality. You don't want to

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Speaker 1: figure out how to feed kids in schools, you don't

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Speaker 1: you don't want to create new, incredible American industry. You

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Speaker 1: want to punish these poor families. It's like, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it's I know you don't. You don't claim a lot

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Speaker 1: of the people in your party and your vocal about that.

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Speaker 1: But when do you think the party went so off

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Speaker 1: the rails? You know, you've been inside it for so long.

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Speaker 1: Do you think it happened, you know, since you ran

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Speaker 1: in nine or do you think it was falling off

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Speaker 1: the rails before then? In hindsight, what do you what

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Speaker 1: do you see as the kind of red flag moments?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. So if you look at so in

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Speaker 2: twenty ten, when I ran, it was kind of the

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Speaker 2: admin of the Tea Party. And what a lot of

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Speaker 2: people don't remember is the Tea Party in twenty ten

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Speaker 2: was very different than what it became in twenty twelve.

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Speaker 2: So in twenty ten, there were people that were ticked

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Speaker 2: off about the healthcare law that hadn't been implemented yet.

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Speaker 2: It passed, but it wasn't implemented into law yet. That's

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Speaker 2: where the whole like repeal and replace idea came in

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Speaker 2: is because it was sitting there waiting to be enactive

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Speaker 2: but hadn't been enacted yet, and the idea for people was, well,

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Speaker 2: let's put a new one in before this one takes effect. Well,

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Speaker 2: when Obamacare took effect, the ACA, like that's when I

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Speaker 2: went off and said, like, look, okay, it's in let's

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Speaker 2: just fix the parts that don't work now because it's

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Speaker 2: already in law. But there became this like litmus test

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Speaker 2: of if you're a true conservative, which, by the way,

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Speaker 2: there is no conservatism left in the GOP. It's become

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Speaker 2: a party about nationalism and there may be echoes of conservatism,

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Speaker 2: but through conservatism, when you talk about the people that

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Speaker 2: deeply believe it. It's all about the role of government,

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Speaker 2: and that role of government should be less in people's

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Speaker 2: lives and not more while providing in social safety. And

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Speaker 2: regardless that, so this became a litmus test. And on abortion,

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Speaker 2: you know what used to be nuanced positions on abortion.

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Speaker 2: You know, every Republican presidential candidate and president has said,

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Speaker 2: you know, their pro life with the exception of rape, incests,

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Speaker 2: life and health of the mother. And many went even

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Speaker 2: saying like, and let's ban after fifteen weeks or something

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Speaker 2: like that. Probably a position you don't agree with, but

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Speaker 2: definitely a better position than say what Texas has right now.

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Speaker 2: But what happened is when the law was overturned by

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Speaker 2: the Supreme Court, instead of the pro life movement then saying, okay,

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Speaker 2: now that this is where we wanted it to be,

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Speaker 2: Let's do everything we can to help women. Let's do

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Speaker 2: everything we can to promote the use of birth control

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Speaker 2: for those that want to use it for family planning.

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Speaker 2: Let's do everything we can to say to women with

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Speaker 2: pregnancies that they didn't want, let's make adoption easier for them.

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Speaker 2: There are so many couples that want to adopt a child.

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Speaker 2: Let's fix the adoption laws with it. There's so many

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Speaker 2: ways they could have come around women and tried to say, Okay,

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Speaker 2: you may not agree with our position, but here's how

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Speaker 2: we can make it better. Instead, what's happened is you

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Speaker 2: can become instantly famous again by saying this lady in

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Speaker 2: Texas that is literally her life is a threat, which

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Speaker 2: there has never been until the last year. Any GOP

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Speaker 2: person I know that would say that in the health

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Speaker 2: or life of a mother, you can't have an abortion.

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Speaker 2: All of a sudden, this new extreme position has become

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Speaker 2: the litmus test for conservatism. Why because everybody wants to

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Speaker 2: be famous, and it is so if I tweeted tomorrow

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Speaker 2: something outrageous and crazy, I could be instantly known in

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Speaker 2: this country. And that's what people are doing. And so yeah,

430
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 2: I just think this is where our I would say,

431
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 2: like our generation and younger, so our generation down, We've

432
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 2: got to get this kind of baby boomer generation. We

433
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 2: all have boomers we love, okay, but they have been

434
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 2: in power for quite a while. There's a lot of

435
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 2: anger in that and it is time for our generations

436
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 2: when we finally do come and we take over politics

437
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 2: in a full way to be able to put aside

438
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 2: these things that have divided us. Look, there's going to

439
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 2: be a conservative movement in this country, and there's going

440
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 2: to be a progressive movement in this country, and honestly,

441
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 2: this country needs both because we're kind of a check

442
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 2: on each other. Now, let's all figure out how to

443
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 2: get along again and be angry and fight. We can

444
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 2: do that, that's all done in politics, but without shutting

445
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 2: down our ability to talk to each other.

446
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: Mm hm, well, and without being bloodthirsty about each other.

447
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 2: Right.

448
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: You know, it's not lost on me that you're having

449
00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 1: taken a position against a threat to democracy, against treason,

450
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 1: put you in a position where your life was at risk.

451
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 1: You know, even for me, nobody liked your opinion. People

452
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 1: really don't like opinionated women in this country. Good god,

453
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: you know, And me talking about what I was watching

454
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 1: with my own eyes on that day led to death

455
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 1: threats and things, I mean, just things that I was

456
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 1: astounded that people would say to another person. And people

457
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: seem to really get off on it, they seem to

458
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: really enjoy the violence. And I don't know if that's

459
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: because the former president set an example of violence and retribution.

460
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,239
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's because so many people, as

461
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: you were saying earlier, in your party or courting, you know,

462
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: dictators like Vladimir Putin, who you know puts people to

463
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,439
Speaker 1: death in his country and crashes airplanes with opponents on it,

464
00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: and you know, throws people out windows. It's frightening.

465
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 2: And I.

466
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 1: Wonder how you make sense. Yes, you're a man of duty,

467
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: you know, both in the military and in Congress. You

468
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 1: believe in the calling and the purpose of your work.

469
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: But also just as a human and a parent, how

470
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: how do you kind of reconcile with this boiling point

471
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 1: we seem to have come to in the nation. How

472
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: do you appeal to people to begin to turn the

473
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: temperature down.

474
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 2: So it's a great question, and I realized I didn't

475
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 2: fully answer your last question too, about like did you

476
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 2: you know, did it happen while you were there? And

477
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 2: so I'll put the two together and say, I can

478
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 2: look back at my time in Congress and see echoes

479
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 2: of what this thing became that either I didn't see

480
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 2: or I kind of willfully ignored. Because you end up

481
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 2: and I'm not exempt from this right making compromises to

482
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 2: stay in power. To some extent, compromises in politics you

483
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 2: have to make. But when it's like to the things

484
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 2: that you hold dear and you kind of turn a

485
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 2: blind eye to it, I have some guilt over that,

486
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 2: but I also know that you know, I'm glad I

487
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 2: survived to be able to fight where I did. But

488
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: I think Donald Trump served two purposes. So this kind

489
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 2: of like really bad, whatever this bad undercurrent is and

490
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 2: the GOP it existed, but it existed in kind of

491
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 2: the dark corners for a while. Donald Trump came along,

492
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 2: and this is what we have to reconcile with when

493
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 2: we talk about where people are and how do we

494
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 2: fix it. So everybody in our hearts, every day you

495
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 2: have a fight in your own life between light and darkness.

496
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 2: So every day you are bombarded with your own thoughts

497
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 2: of like, screw it, I'm not going to get involved.

498
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 2: I hate this person, I hate that I write. And

499
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 2: you have to try to fight that every day with brightness,

500
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 2: with light, with goodness whatever that goodness is to you.

501
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 2: And that's a hard bat And by the way, some

502
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 2: days I lose those battles. Some days I'm sure you

503
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: lose it where you just get down. But every day

504
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 2: that's the fight. There's mistrust, right, racism, whatever it is.

505
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 2: And Donald Trump came along and what used to exist

506
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 2: in dark corners or in whispers at tables at fundraisers,

507
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 2: he came along and now publicly said what was in

508
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 2: the darkness of your heart. So, if you had a

509
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 2: mistrust for immigrants and you thought they were taking your jobs,

510
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 2: you would never say that because gosh and polite company,

511
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 2: and so you'd fight that urge. You'd fight that feeling

512
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 2: when Donald Trump stands in front of you and says it,

513
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 2: and he says they're coming to take your jobs, and

514
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: the Democrats are and Hollywood and the Democrats they put together.

515
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 2: You guys actually worship Satan. And this is a QAnon theory.

516
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 2: You worship Satan and you drained baby's blood. And I've

517
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 2: been accused of that as well. Because now I'm in

518
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 2: the mitail slash Democratic crowd.

519
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: I'm like cool, I grew up a camp counselor. But

520
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: tell me more about how I hate children. I love

521
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: this story, my god.

522
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 2: It's nuts and so. But when they speak the dark

523
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 2: parts of your heart, especially somebody in authority, it allows

524
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: you to basically get rid of all of that personal

525
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 2: feeling of like I have to be accountable. You put

526
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,719
Speaker 2: your accountability onto the leader, and he and it's easy

527
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 2: to let the darkness overtake you. It's easy to let

528
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 2: that fear, that hate, that vengeance overcome you because it

529
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 2: feels comfortable. And now he, Donald Trump, has taken ownership

530
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 2: of it for you, so you can allow him to

531
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 2: and it just destroys you as a person, and people

532
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 2: don't realize it. I think there are many in my

533
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: former party. I still call myself a Republican, but I

534
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 2: don't vote Republican anymore. There are many in my in

535
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 2: that party that I think are going to have very

536
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 2: short lives because they're allowing themselves to be torn up

537
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: from the inside. And I mean it legitimately. Their cortisol

538
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 2: levels are spiked, their anger is spiked. Their families, you know,

539
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: don't want to talk to them because they're down the

540
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 2: QAnon hole. And we all know that if you don't

541
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 2: have family and love in your life, you don't live

542
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,239
Speaker 2: as long as you could. And so what we have

543
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 2: to do as individuals, I'd say, is, yeah, it's great

544
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 2: to tweet. It's great if you're in a position like

545
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 2: you are, and I am to be out there as

546
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 2: publicly as we can. But if you don't have the

547
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 2: forum that you and I have to talk about this,

548
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: just love the people around you, but don't expose yourself

549
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 2: to toxicity. Right If I had half of my family

550
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 2: on my dad's side disowned me through all this stuff,

551
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 2: through this January sixth stuff in a certified letter, I've

552
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 2: had to forgive them in my heart, and I have,

553
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: but I have not reconciled with them, and I have

554
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: no desire to because that is toxic and I don't

555
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 2: need to desire it to. I don't need to reconcile

556
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 2: with them. So I would just say that to people.

557
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,959
Speaker 2: Love those you can, by the way, get a friend

558
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 2: that doesn't think like you and just kind of understand

559
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 2: how they think. That's an important thing, But don't be

560
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 2: in anything that's toxic.

561
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors. I think that's

562
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: very true for so many things, whether that's you know,

563
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: family dynamics, relationships, you know, these political conversations, figuring out

564
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: who who you're going to take with you into your

565
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: phase too, whatever that looks like, who really shows up

566
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: and is willing to do you know, the work, who

567
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: helps to set you free. I think those are incredibly

568
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: important clarifying moments. And I think about what a clarifying

569
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: moment painful? I'm sure when you talk about that sort

570
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: of family dynamic in your life, but what a clarifying

571
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: moment telling the truth about January sixth was for you

572
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: and you know, for the friends at home. And we've

573
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: referenced it a few times. Your new book, Renegade is phenomenal.

574
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: I just I was so so inspired by it. I

575
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: read it so fast, and I was reading some of

576
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: the reviews on it and one of them said raw, provocative,

577
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: and clear eyed, and I was like, my three adjectives also,

578
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: because that is really how it feels. It's so honest.

579
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: And I guess I wonder, was the fallout from the

580
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: day what made you want to write it? Was it

581
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: the realization of how bad the day was? Was it

582
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: the time you spent sort of replaying what you went

583
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: through in the capitol on January sixth? What made you

584
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: feel like you had to put pen to paper on this?

585
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 2: So, you know, writing a book. Somebody once told me

586
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 2: they're like, if you write a book about yourself, it

587
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: feels inherently arrogant. And I'm like, yes, it does, because

588
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: you know, you write it, and you're like, who wants

589
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 2: to read me write in a book about me? Right?

590
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 2: But what I came to realize is my story. So

591
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 2: Liz Cheney's book is out now, which goes into great

592
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 2: detail of everything from election day until almost present day

593
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 2: with Donald Trump, and you know what she and I

594
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 2: went through on the committee, and I talk about that

595
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 2: as well in my book. But mine, I figured my

596
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 2: story tells the broader story of the GOP from particularly

597
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 2: twenty ten, but I even go further back to nineteen

598
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 2: ninety two. That was really helpful, Yeah, because I asked,

599
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 2: like so many people, you know, ninety two, for instance,

600
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 2: I was at this Christian Coalition convention, and I didn't

601
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 2: even realize until I started doing the research that that

602
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 2: was the first time the GOP and Evangelical Christianity actually

603
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 2: met officially and in essence created this alliance that sort

604
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: of existed in the past in the eighties but not fully.

605
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 2: And then you see going forward how that kind of

606
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 2: overtook the role of kind of traditional Republican The Republican

607
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: Party just used to be about business. I didn't even

608
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: care about social issues, honestly, that wasn't even it was

609
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 2: just like pro business stuff. And so that was the

610
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 2: purpose in writing the book was just for people to

611
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 2: be able through a microcosm of a story, to see

612
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 2: these broader things that have concerned me about the party,

613
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 2: that have concerned me about this country. And you know,

614
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: and the other thing is, I hope some of these

615
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 2: folks have been able that particularly that I don't know

616
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 2: if you've been through I don't know everything about your history,

617
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 2: but if you've been through anything like where all of

618
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 2: a sudden you realize, like who your real friends are?

619
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: Ye?

620
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:42,240
Speaker 2: For me? Yeah, and so for me turning against Donald Trump,

621
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 2: these people that I thought would be friends. I was

622
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: always kind of against Trump, but I was never so

623
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 2: outspoken that I thought would be friends would disown me,

624
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 2: would turn against me, whether it's family. My co pilot

625
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: in Iraq a year and a half ago sent me

626
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 2: a text that said I was ashamed to have ever

627
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 2: flown with you. And while that hurts, and you should

628
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 2: talk to somebody about that, and I've had to the

629
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 2: reality is I now know that that wasn't a true thread,

630
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 2: and there is some blessing in that, I guess.

631
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: I think so, I think there's a real truth to

632
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 1: when people react to you standing up for what's right,

633
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: be it for you as an individual, you know, refusing

634
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: to tolerate an abusive relationship or some other terrible environment,

635
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 1: or in this case, you standing up for what's right

636
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:39,320
Speaker 1: for the Constitution, and their reaction to you making yourself

637
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 1: bigger in defense of goodness, their reaction is a repulsion

638
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: or a discomfort. That's a big sign because people who

639
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: don't want to see you grow, who don't want to

640
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 1: see you really stand in the clarity of your moral character,

641
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,280
Speaker 1: are people you don't want in your circle anyway.

642
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, because yeah, and you end up

643
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 2: you find that, like you know, we're naturally a tribal creature,

644
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 2: so we like the comfort of numbers, we like the

645
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,879
Speaker 2: safety of friends, and you find that And I think

646
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 2: this happens, not to get back right to politics, but

647
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 2: I think this happens a lot in political circles, and

648
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,720
Speaker 2: particularly my former political circle, where you know, there's whatever

649
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 2: some controversial issue is, you know, all of a sudden

650
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: you can't have a nuanced approach to that issue because

651
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 2: you're afraid that if you come out and say, for instance,

652
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: you want background checks on guns, or you want to

653
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 2: raise the gun purchase age, or you want to ban

654
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 2: on assault weapons, whatever it is. Now, in that group

655
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 2: of friends or political activists that are kind of your tribe,

656
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 2: if you've gone outside of the tribe, they're going to

657
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: excommunicate you. And so that's why I think too you

658
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 2: see in politics now this like monolithic feeling of certain principles.

659
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,760
Speaker 2: Why there's no nuanced approach to these different issues because

660
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 2: people have turned their political circles into their social circles,

661
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 2: and they can't get kicked out of their social circles

662
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 2: or they're going to feel isolated. I mean, I think, Sophia,

663
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 2: I think people fear more than they fear death. I

664
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 2: think people fear being kicked out of their tribe. I

665
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 2: think they fear being isolated more than they fear death.

666
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 2: Why is it that suicide rates went up during COVID

667
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 2: because people felt isolated and that's the biggest fear. And

668
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 2: I saw that in the cowardice of my colleagues when

669
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 2: it came to January sixth, who were who knew what

670
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 2: the right answer was, but they didn't want to. It's

671
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 2: not even that they didn't want to not get reelected.

672
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 2: It's they didn't want to take all their text messages

673
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 2: from their family and friends that I had to take

674
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 2: in essence kicking them out of their tribe. And so

675
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 2: that's I think it's something to keep in mind when

676
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 2: you talk about conflict. At the base of conflict between

677
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 2: two people, two entities, even two nations, boil down and

678
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 2: you strip down all the layers of the onion, what

679
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 2: you get to is a core of fear. There's always fear,

680
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 2: and that fear leads to conflict, and in many cases

681
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 2: it's fear of being kicked out of the tribeor excommunicated.

682
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: Well, and you know, when you think about what all

683
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: the scientists teach us about our brains and evolution, and

684
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 1: you know the fact that we've still got this little

685
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: lizard brain in us that is petrified all the time

686
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 1: and very tribal. You see how we can other people

687
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: so easily. Yeah, But part of the point of human evolution,

688
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: and you know, philosophy and living in the year twenty

689
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: twenty three, is that we're supposed to have learned better

690
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: and understand more and know that there is more than enough,

691
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of resources and everything else on

692
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: this planet. And yet here we are being these tribal

693
00:38:54,160 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: little animals. When tribalism, as you said earlier, is led

694
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 1: out of Pandora's box in the way that Donald Trump

695
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: managed to do it. You know, he brought all of

696
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: the darkest lizard brain whispers that so many people were

697
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:15,359
Speaker 1: hiding or doing the more mature brain work of tamping down.

698
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: He brought them all out and you know, put them

699
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: on the menu. Obviously, so many people saw the danger

700
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 1: in that. You saw the danger in that you you

701
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 1: were not a trumper, but when you knew that there

702
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: was this plan that these protesters, that you know, these

703
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: rioters were going to march to the Capitol, I'm curious

704
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,839
Speaker 1: about what as a military man it felt like to

705
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: prepare for that, because you mentioned, you know, in your book,

706
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 1: you brought your gun to the Capitol that day. To me,

707
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: that signals that you were worried about something happening in

708
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 1: a very serious way. So what was your mindset on

709
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: the morning of the sixth And how did your sort

710
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: of worst fears, I guess come true? Can you kind

711
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: of just walk us through the day a little bit?

712
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, you know I had predicted violence actually on

713
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 2: a phone call with Kevin McCarthy and all the other

714
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 2: Republican members of Congress, and people ask me, well, how

715
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 2: do you know it's gonna be violence, and like it's easy.

716
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 2: I looked at Twitter and I saw the death threats

717
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 2: against me because I was you know, it was basically

718
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: Liz Cheney and I were the two most outspoken saying

719
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 2: the election wasn't stolen. And I said to Kevin McCarthy,

720
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 2: you're convincing half of the country that the election was stolen.

721
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 2: There's going to be violence, because, honestly, let's be clear,

722
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 2: if an election really was stolen, we should all be

723
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 2: rioting on the Capitol because you know, the whole thing

724
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: about the founding of the US against the British was

725
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: taxation with representation. You know, we were founded in revolution,

726
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,720
Speaker 2: so there's nothing wrong with revolution if truly it's being stolen.

727
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 2: The problem is it wasn't being stolen, and you're convincing

728
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 2: and you're abusing paye triotism, And so I knew there'd

729
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 2: be violence. Now I don't know if I knew that

730
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 2: they were going to sack the Capitol per se, but

731
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 2: I knew there was going to be violence against members

732
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 2: of Congress. Like me. I'd have the threats. I mean,

733
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 2: people were posting. You've probably had this in yourself, because again,

734
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 2: the crazies get attracted to Hollywood and politics, right, and

735
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,280
Speaker 2: particularly if you get Hollywood involved in politics, you probably

736
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 2: get a double dose of crazy. But I would get

737
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 2: so many tweets of like a hangman's news or you know,

738
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 2: we were talking about fundamentalism. Fundamentalists in general, they hate

739
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 2: people of their own kind that pretend to be like

740
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:40,399
Speaker 2: them that aren't. It's like fundamentalist religions to fight other

741
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 2: people that claim to be the same. Fundamentalist Republicans hate

742
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 2: me more than they hate Democrats because they think I'm

743
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 2: an apostates. So I asked my wife to stay home

744
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 2: that day. I used to say I told my wife

745
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 2: to stay home that day, and I learned that you

746
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 2: have to say you ask her, which I did, and

747
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 2: so she stayed home and my but I could tell

748
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 2: my staff. My staff stayed home, so it was just

749
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 2: me in the office, and I took my gun for

750
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 2: the first time. I'm I'm usually armed because of the

751
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 2: threats I'd get against me, but I never would take

752
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 2: my gun to the Capitol because there were so many

753
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 2: police officers there, and I'm not somebody that carries to

754
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 2: feel cool. I carry for protection and I'm licensed to

755
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 2: do it. But that day I did, and I went

756
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 2: to the floor at the start for the proceedings. And

757
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 2: by the time I kind of got there and the

758
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,399
Speaker 2: proceedings kicked off, I had this sense that something really

759
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 2: bad was going on. I started to see these reports

760
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 2: on Twitter, so I actually went back to my office

761
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 2: and by the time I got to my office, that's

762
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: when the pipe bombs were discovered at the RNC and DNC.

763
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 2: I opened my window, which is you remember my office

764
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 2: behind my desk, My window actually overlooks the west front

765
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: of the Capitol. And I opened that up and I

766
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: looked out the window and all I could hear was

767
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 2: just boom, bang, pop explosions. And it was that moment

768
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 2: that DC Metro Police showed up to defend the perimeter

769
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 2: of the Capitol. Now, in these conspiracy theories, there are

770
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 2: videos of Capitol police retreating, removing bike racks, opening doors,

771
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 2: and the crazies try to use that as an example

772
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 2: of well Capitol police were in on it. No, Capitol

773
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 2: police were overrun and the bike racks were being used

774
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 2: as a weapon, and so Capital police had to remove

775
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,280
Speaker 2: those bike racks because they were being used as weapons.

776
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, they were beating people with them.

777
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 2: They were, yep. And so they were trying to diffuse

778
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 2: the situation. So DC Metro came up. They were able

779
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 2: to hold that door where we saw that violence in

780
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 2: the west front of the Capitol.

781
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that poor young man being crushed in the doorway.

782
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I sensed and look, you know, I'm a

783
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 2: man of faith, but I'm not one of these that

784
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 2: walks around and feels like evil in darkness or anything. Right,

785
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:52,800
Speaker 2: but that moment, it felt evil And I cannot explain

786
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 2: that beyond that. Maybe people think it's psychological. I don't know,

787
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 2: but I just felt this like darkness of like this

788
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 2: is a bad moment, and I end up in essence,

789
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 2: barricaded to my office until the capital was cleared, And

790
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 2: for one hundred and eighty seven minutes, the President of

791
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 2: the United States of America was sitting in his office

792
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 2: waiting to see if this would be successful. And only

793
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 2: when he saw that it would not succeed, that law

794
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 2: enforcement was able to turn the tide. Only then did

795
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 2: he'd begrudgingly put out a statement calling for the violence

796
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 2: to end. If that is not an attempted coup on

797
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 2: our country, then there is no such thing as a coup.

798
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: And now a word from our wonderful sponsors and what

799
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:53,720
Speaker 1: you all have discovered since about the fake elector plan

800
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: about I mean the literal plans. They made power points,

801
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: they made documents about how we're going to overturn a

802
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: legitimate election, call it stolen, and overturn a legitimate election

803
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: and install fake electors to literally carry out a coup

804
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 1: against American democracy, all because a man who apparently didn't

805
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: get hugged enough in his childhood can't stand to lose.

806
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 2: It's truly.

807
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: Shocking to me. And I think, you know, watching it

808
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: that day, I felt, I guess by proxy what you're explaining.

809
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: You felt the darkness of it, the energy, it felt

810
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 1: like bloodlust to me. And seeing those gallows being erected

811
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: and hearing those rioters screaming where's Nancy, And then you know,

812
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 1: reading the reports about Aana Presley's panic buttons being removed

813
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: and people hunting for a and I mean the violence

814
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 1: they wanted, particularly particularly to do to women of color

815
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 1: that serve in elected office was I mean, it made

816
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 1: my blood run coldy. I have goosebumps all over my

817
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 1: body now thinking about it, because it is that unleashing

818
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 1: of the worst parts of who we have historically been

819
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 1: and the worst things we've ever done. And to put

820
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 1: all of it in like a cauldron and let it explode,

821
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 1: you know, in the sort of hallowed halls, one of

822
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 1: our most sacred institutions. I mean, it was it was

823
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: hard to fathom. And I think what's been really shocking

824
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 1: to me is that watching it didn't make everybody go Okay, enough,

825
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: we've gone too far. You know that you still have

826
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: members of the GOPI saying, well, we're going to release

827
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 1: all the tapes and we'll prove it didn't happen, and

828
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: it's like, no, the tapes are just worse. Everything just

829
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 1: makes it worse. Yeah, completely, how do you make sense

830
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: of it now?

831
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 2: So it's crazy because I was reminded, you know that,

832
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 2: in the aftermath of January sixth, the GOP with rare exception,

833
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 2: was saying this has gone too far until Kevin McCarthy

834
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 2: went to Marrow Lago and reinvigorated and brought to life

835
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 2: Donald Trump again. And then everybody's like, well if Kevin's

836
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 2: going to marrow Lago. We have to be on Trump.

837
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 2: And then the rationalization started. It was it was even

838
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,280
Speaker 2: no matter what in the face of evidence. The rationalization

839
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,839
Speaker 2: is all about again, safety in numbers, our side. Even

840
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 2: if we're wrong, we have to be right, and so

841
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 2: we're going to be right. You know, you're talking about

842
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 2: the bloodlust. And I'll tell you what was interesting. So

843
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 2: I had a situation in Milwaukee where a guy was

844
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: murdering his girlfriend. And it's a long story, I'll keep

845
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 2: it short. I had to disarm him, and I fought

846
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 2: a guy with a knife with my bare hands and

847
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 2: disarmed him. And I'd much rather fight a guy with

848
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,959
Speaker 2: a gun than a knife. A knife is more lethal close.

849
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 2: But I say that to say when I got him down,

850
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 2: I had made the decision in my mind to kill him,

851
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 2: and I would have been justified in doing it. And

852
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 2: thankfully I wasn't able to kill him because I was

853
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 2: too occupied simply disarming him. But I know that feeling

854
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 2: that went through my body. You become an animal and

855
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 2: it's fight or flight, it's survival. I made a decision

856
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 2: to kill this guy killing his girlfriend, and I know

857
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 2: everything that was in my mind, and again, thankfully I

858
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 2: didn't do that, but I can look at what these

859
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 2: folks are doing on those steps and relate to that feeling.

860
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 2: I had that fight or flight survival based on a

861
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 2: legitimate danger to my life and the life of an

862
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 2: innocent woman. They had convinced themselves that that same thing exists,

863
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,479
Speaker 2: and so you talk about bloodlust, I think you're right.

864
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 2: I think they wanted people to die. They said to

865
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 2: Michael Finone or in his presence, shoot him with his

866
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 2: own gun. Like these are people that probably go to church,

867
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 2: people that would never say anything like that in a

868
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 2: normal time. Now wanting this police officer who they don't

869
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 2: know to be shot with his own gun. They were

870
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 2: in lizard braid fight mode because they had been convinced,

871
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 2: and of course in mob violence as well, we know

872
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 2: the psychology of that. But they had been convinced that

873
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 2: it was the right thing to do. And this Donald

874
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 2: Trump and everybody that enabled him have to be held accountable.

875
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 2: It was right to arrest the people that have been

876
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 2: at the Capitol, and they need to be tried to

877
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:39,839
Speaker 2: the max extent of law. But we have to make

878
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 2: sure those that led them there are also paying the

879
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 2: greatest price.

880
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I mean Charles Manson's in jail for the murders.

881
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 1: He instructed other people to commit. Accountability matters here and

882
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 1: accountability for the most sacred office in the land. I

883
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: mean it is so it's abhorrant to me that everybody,

884
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,479
Speaker 1: for some reason with Donald Trump goes, yeah, but he's Trump.

885
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,760
Speaker 1: It's like, what are you gonna do? Because everybody agrees

886
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,760
Speaker 1: that he's a ridiculous person, knows he's a dangerous person,

887
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 1: but because he's ridiculous, thinks you can't hold him to account.

888
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:16,359
Speaker 2: Why do you.

889
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: Think he has so much pull over House Republicans? Is

890
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 1: Is it just the you know, impressions he makes on

891
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: the on the internet? What? What is? What is he got?

892
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 2: So one of the things his superpower is a lack

893
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 2: of shame. If you have no shame and you're a

894
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 2: public figure, I mean, let's take Matt Gates, right, I mean,

895
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 2: the guy's defense in Florida was seventeen is legal in Florida.

896
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 2: I mean that's somebody without shame, you know, and then

897
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 2: going out and showing their face. Donald Trump has no shame,

898
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 2: so he can literally directly lie a lie that is

899
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 2: very provable by his own words the day prior, and

900
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 2: he doesn't care because he has no shame. So I

901
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 2: think it started out as a fear. People were afraid

902
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 2: that he would tweet against them, and people were afraid,

903
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:11,319
Speaker 2: and I think as good people left Congress, they were

904
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 2: replaced by some people that truly believe this insanity. It's

905
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 2: not a majority, but there's a handful that truly believed

906
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 2: the insanity. And then I think the rest of it

907
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 2: is just when Liz Cheney and I do the right thing,

908
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:28,800
Speaker 2: and you're in a cult, you can kick one or

909
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 2: two people out of the cult. You can point at them,

910
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 2: you can excommunicate them, you can say, look at what

911
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 2: happens when you go outside of the cult, and it

912
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 2: keeps everybody else in the cult disciplined. And I think

913
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 2: that's what happened with is has happened with leaders in

914
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 2: the GOP is they've seen the example of what's happened

915
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 2: to others and they've been told basically, don't go out

916
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 2: of line. And just like with a cult or anything else,

917
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 2: everybody has to stand together to see the truth. And

918
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 2: they're not doing when everybody except Chris Christy on the

919
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 2: Republican Debate stage says that it is a witch hunt

920
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 2: against Donald Trump, that the DOJ has come along. I'm

921
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,839
Speaker 2: not surprised that seventy to eighty percent of Republicans then

922
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,760
Speaker 2: believe that it's a witch hunt against Donald Trump because

923
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 2: all the people they trust are telling them that, but

924
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 2: all the people they trust are lying to them and

925
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 2: know it. This is why leaders, That's why I'm excited

926
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 2: about the next generation, because I don't think I think

927
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,240
Speaker 2: there is a reverence for institutions, but there's an irreverence

928
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 2: for being lied to. I think there is a generational

929
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 2: shift that's coming, and I think people have to take

930
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 2: Donald Trump is going to try to wear us out

931
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 2: and continue to lie and get us to where we

932
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 2: carry this weight to the world on our shoulders, and

933
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 2: eventually we're just like, I can't win, we can't beat him.

934
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 2: I'm just going to give up. And that's what he's

935
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 2: counting on. He's shameless and he's got a lot of

936
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 2: energy somehow to continue to try to get people like

937
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 2: you and I to give up. And the key is essays,

938
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 2: we have to outlast him, because if we all ask,

939
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 2: Donald Trump will win. If we get tired and we

940
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 2: give up, he will win.

941
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 1: Well, we're going into an election year, and obviously with

942
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 1: everything happening, you know, in the country and around the world,

943
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 1: you know, war in the Middle East, war in Ukraine.

944
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:24,280
Speaker 1: I mean, the suffering is unimaginable. It feels like nobody's

945
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:28,439
Speaker 1: getting anything right. There is real fear about this man

946
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: becoming president again. Do you think it's possible and would

947
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: that be doomsday for our country?

948
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:39,919
Speaker 2: I do think it's quite possible. I think I think

949
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 2: we're naive to think that Donald Trump can't win, because

950
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,359
Speaker 2: this is exactly what we thought in twenty sixteen. I

951
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 2: think depending on where the economy is, Like the economy

952
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 2: is in decent shape, but for some reason it hasn't

953
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 2: been communicated well, or the media hasn't covered it well.

954
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 1: Whatever that I mean, the media is really failing us

955
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 1: on the communication of this.

956
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 2: That's true, and so and people. We can't underestimate people

957
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 2: who just decide all of a sudden, like I'm going

958
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 2: to vote for Trump because I think it felt better

959
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 2: under him. You know, these these esoteric discussions of democracy,

960
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,399
Speaker 2: which are the most important discussions that we can have.

961
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 2: To a lot of people, they're just like ad whatever democracy,

962
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 2: it's always going to survive. I want to make sure

963
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 2: that the economy is better, which is where the Democrats

964
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 2: have to do a really good job of selling that

965
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 2: message about where the economy is, how your life is

966
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 2: better today than it was. And we have to have

967
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 2: a un natural So for anybody that's listening that's like,

968
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 2: would why would she have Adam Kinsinger on? Okay, let

969
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 2: me just let me just tell you this. We have

970
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:49,439
Speaker 2: to have a unnatural alliance between the sane right, the

971
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 2: center and I would consider myself a centrist and the

972
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 2: left to defend democracy. Because if we're going to start saying, yeah,

973
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 2: I want to defend democracy unless you think differently than

974
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 2: me on a different subject, well that's anti democratic in

975
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 2: and of itself. But secondarily, you're never going to get

976
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 2: to fifty one percent if you want to start only

977
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 2: working with people that think just like you, because not

978
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 2: the majority of the country doesn't think like me. The

979
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 2: majority of the country doesn't think like you. There's like

980
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 2: eight different ways the country thinks and they all make

981
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 2: up whatever, you know, fifteen percent. So that's what we

982
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:25,880
Speaker 2: have to do to work together to defeat Donald Trump,

983
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,319
Speaker 2: because I honestly like I'll vote for Joe Biden. I'll

984
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 2: campaign for Joe Biden. I don't care who the Democrats

985
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 2: put up. The one thing that we have to vote

986
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 2: on in twenty twenty four is defeating Donald Trump. Yes,

987
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 2: because the second part of your question is can we

988
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:41,879
Speaker 2: survive it? And I do not believe that we can

989
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 2: survive another term of Donald Trump. And I don't say

990
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 2: that lightly.

991
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,840
Speaker 1: I don't either. I think he got very close to

992
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:53,360
Speaker 1: becoming the dictator he dreams of being, and should he

993
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:55,359
Speaker 1: get another chance, he won't fumble it.

994
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 2: Right correct, and he will put people around him that

995
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:01,919
Speaker 2: don't believe in the Constitution. You may hate Bill Barr,

996
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 2: but Bill Barr said, nope, sir, I'm not going to

997
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 2: violate the Constitution. Donald Trump will never put somebody like

998
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:10,359
Speaker 2: Bill Barr in. He'll pick the guy that says you

999
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 2: are the Constitution, mister President, and I'll do whatever you want.

1000
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 1: And that should terrify us all. Really, it is your

1001
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:24,480
Speaker 1: willingness to really tell the hard truths. Part of the

1002
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:28,320
Speaker 1: reason that you decided to go over and work at CNN,

1003
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 1: because I think it's such a cool move that you're

1004
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 1: going over there to be a commentator, you know, I mean, honestly,

1005
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 1: partially because Trump loves to paarrot things that don't make

1006
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:40,839
Speaker 1: any sense. But you know, everybody thinks of CNN as

1007
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 1: being like the left news network, which really it's not.

1008
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 1: It's pretty center if anything. But you know, you just

1009
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 1: said you consider yourself a centrist. Are you just leaning

1010
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 1: all in and trying to make sure that you know

1011
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:56,279
Speaker 1: you can add perhaps an often unheard voice in that

1012
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:59,359
Speaker 1: space to make sure people are ready for twenty twenty four?

1013
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:01,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean for me, it's you know, I love

1014
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 2: I've always loved doing TV. I've always loved the media

1015
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 2: side of things. It's just enjoyable. It's a great opportunity

1016
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 2: to kind of keep a platform for what I'm trying

1017
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 2: to say and what I'm trying to do, and so

1018
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 2: I've loved it, and I want to have a balanced

1019
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 2: perspective there it is. You know, obviously CNN has kind

1020
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 2: of gone left, it's gone right, it's back to the center.

1021
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 2: But I think when it comes to things like foreign policy,

1022
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 2: it's a really good news station for that. That's something

1023
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 2: I'm very passionate about, as the US role in the

1024
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 2: world and foreign policy. And you know, I'm also putting

1025
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 2: a lot of energy in my I have an organization

1026
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 2: called Country First and we've just started Country First Academy.

1027
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 2: And what we're doing is it doesn't matter if you're

1028
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 2: a Republican or a Democrat, if you're willing to put

1029
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 2: the country over the party we want to, like, we're

1030
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 2: going to train you and what it takes to be

1031
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 2: a candidate how to run. Basically, I want to do

1032
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 2: democracy building here at home. We're actually really good as

1033
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 2: a country at sending NGOs overseas to help countries learn

1034
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 2: how to do democracy because we thought it was automatic here.

1035
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 2: It's not automatic here anymore. We have to build democracy

1036
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 2: here at home again. And so that's what I'll do.

1037
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 2: And maybe someday I get back into the business of

1038
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 2: running for office, but we'll see.

1039
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 1: Democracy building feels so exciting to me. Please sign me up.

1040
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 2: I'm ready, I will, I will. We got to get

1041
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 2: it done.

1042
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 1: Would you say that, well, maybe your answer is the

1043
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:32,920
Speaker 1: project you just mentioned, or maybe it's figuring out you

1044
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:37,200
Speaker 1: know what the long term goal is. But right now,

1045
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:40,520
Speaker 1: from this vantage point at which you sit, when you

1046
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 1: look at your life, what would you say is your

1047
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 1: work in progress?

1048
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:47,919
Speaker 2: That's a good one. What is my I think it's

1049
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 2: it's my work in progress is coming to like on

1050
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 2: a personal level, it will be coming to grips in

1051
00:58:56,480 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 2: peace on that I will do everything I can for

1052
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 2: the country, for democracy, but also recognize I'm not the

1053
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 2: one that can save the world, and there really is nobody.

1054
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 2: It's a collective we have to all do together. And

1055
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 2: so that's what it is. It's just continuing to remind

1056
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 2: people to build people to work towards as I believe

1057
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 2: this was Abraham Lincoln talked about a more perfect union.

1058
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 2: Will never have a perfect union, but it will be

1059
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 2: more perfect. It'll be a reminder to people that, look,

1060
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 2: all government is and all politics is, it's a way

1061
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 2: to avoid violence and it's a way that we all

1062
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 2: figure out how to live together. That's all politics is

1063
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 2: really something basic that we need to get right.

1064
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 1: I like that, and I think for me, always figuring

1065
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 1: out how to bring it back to us. You know,

1066
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 1: democracy isn't supposed to be about you or me. It's

1067
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 1: for us, that's right. And figuring out how to make

1068
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 1: sure we can listen to each other and learn and

1069
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 1: and figure out how to create better futures feels like

1070
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 1: the goal. So I don't know, I'm always very inspired

1071
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: when I hear you talk about your perspective on how

1072
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 1: to do that.

1073
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, thank you, And I've always appreciated your

1074
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 2: your intense interest in the future of this country as well.

1075
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 2: It would be it's much easier for you, and frankly

1076
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 2: for me too, but it would be much easier to

1077
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 2: just kind of do your job, you know, sit by

1078
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 2: the pool and drink of my tie. But you've chosen

1079
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 2: to You've chosen to put your your efforts where your

1080
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:37,640
Speaker 2: mouth is, and that means a lot. And uh, and

1081
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 2: I think it's I hope that I hope that energy

1082
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 2: you have and that desire continues to spread to more people.

1083
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 1: Thanks, Adam, I really appreciate that.

1084
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:48,440
Speaker 2: Of course, you bet.

1085
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 1: Always a pleasure, and thanks for coming on the show today.

1086
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was great. It was great being with you.

1087
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 2: And uh, maybe next time we talk and it will

1088
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 2: be in a better situation and Donald Trump will be

1089
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 2: on the wrote path to losing or in jail.

1090
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:06,439
Speaker 1: Either way, fine, I love jail. Let's aim for jail.

1091
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 1: I think traders should go to jail just like a

1092
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:11,440
Speaker 1: baseline plan.

1093
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 2: I agree that's that should just be a standard thing.

1094
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:16,439
Speaker 2: Let's just make that a standard thing.

1095
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 1: Okay, great, that'll be our campaign slogan.

1096
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 2: Some days I like it.

1097
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:24,320
Speaker 1: All right, my friend, thank you so much for joining US.

1098
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you.

1099
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1100
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 1: Okay, talk to you soon.