Speaker 1: A lot of my problems weren't spiritual. A lot of
Speaker 1: my problems were that I trained my brains who mess
Speaker 1: me up. Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time,
Speaker 1: great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.
Speaker 1: Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think, ring true. And yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf m
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is
Speaker 1: Joey's Fencing. What happens when you grow up in a
Speaker 1: fundamentalist church and you have O c D and oppression. Well,
Speaker 1: Joey can tell you. He grew up in Charleston, South Carolina,
Speaker 1: and received a degree in elementary education from Winthrop University
Speaker 1: in After graduation Joey taught school for five years and
Speaker 1: served as a youth minister for New Beginnings Church in
Speaker 1: James Island. His new book is Fundamentalist Stories of a
Speaker 1: mentally ill, obsessive, compulsive, legalistic youth group kid turned pastor.
Speaker 1: And here's the interview with Joey's fencing. Hi, Joey, welcome
Speaker 1: to the show. Hey man, it's good to be on here.
Speaker 1: I'm happy to have you on. We're going to talk
Speaker 1: about depression and maybe politics and mental health and all
Speaker 1: kinds of fun stuff. But before we get into that,
Speaker 1: let's start like we always do with the parable, where
Speaker 1: there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson and he says,
Speaker 1: in life, there are two wolves inside of us that
Speaker 1: are always at battle. What is a good wolf which
Speaker 1: represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the
Speaker 1: other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed
Speaker 1: and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops. He thinks
Speaker 1: about it for a second and looks up at his
Speaker 1: grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And
Speaker 1: the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like
Speaker 1: to start off by asking you what that parable means
Speaker 1: to you in your life and in the work that
Speaker 1: you do well. I would say that for me, I'm
Speaker 1: coming from a pretty Christian spiritual slant, So for better,
Speaker 1: for worse, for right or wrong, I think that we
Speaker 1: are in need of a of a higher spiritual source.
Speaker 1: And honestly, it just it just seems to be something
Speaker 1: that's pretty apparent in our world. You know, if you
Speaker 1: see self run wild, just the different examples of people
Speaker 1: that have done such horrible things. And I do think
Speaker 1: that there is a place for just self discipline and
Speaker 1: you know, doing the right thing and thinking right thoughts.
Speaker 1: And I totally think there's a place for that, but
Speaker 1: at least in my own experience, and that's all I
Speaker 1: have to go off of. If I do all of
Speaker 1: that stuff outside of a spiritual lens, that I just
Speaker 1: get super prideful and I think I'm really awesome and
Speaker 1: you know, just a top notch guy that just does
Speaker 1: awesome things and thinks all some things which leads to
Speaker 1: bad stuff in my opinion, But I I love that parable.
Speaker 1: I think it's super important our thoughts and just thinking through, hey,
Speaker 1: what are we doing from day to day? You know,
Speaker 1: that's going to make us one person or the other.
Speaker 1: In your book, you talk about yourself when you were
Speaker 1: younger and you had the um i'd say, dual affliction
Speaker 1: of being in a very strong Pentecostal church with belief
Speaker 1: systems that, as you wrote, I think, scared the bejeebus
Speaker 1: out of you. UM. So you paired that with with O. C. D.
Speaker 1: And you've got a little of what you were describing there,
Speaker 1: which is this, I am super focused on my behavior
Speaker 1: and I am keeping score of myself and everybody else.
Speaker 1: That's such a great point that you're bringing out, and
Speaker 1: just the dangers of focusing so much on religious rules
Speaker 1: and regulations and rights and wrongs and do this and
Speaker 1: don't do that. And I think that is a very
Speaker 1: common misconception inside and outside of the church. You know
Speaker 1: that that that seems to be what people think the
Speaker 1: vehicle of the churches is just doing the right stuff
Speaker 1: and avoiding the wrong stuff, which I believe in the
Speaker 1: spiritual element of being connected with who I feel as God,
Speaker 1: which is Jesus. But yeah, you're right, I mean, religion
Speaker 1: really screwed me over big time. I mean, just from
Speaker 1: a very early age, I was focused on some of
Speaker 1: the good stuff, but the bad stuff, I think overshadowed
Speaker 1: the good stuff and just thinking that, you know, gosh,
Speaker 1: I gotta do this, I can't do that, and if
Speaker 1: I do this too much, then I'll screw myself over
Speaker 1: and maybe I'll go to Hell forever. And like you said,
Speaker 1: pairing that with O. C D and irrational thinking, I mean, gosh,
Speaker 1: I could give you examples that would make your jaw drop.
Speaker 1: I mean just the crazy stuff that I thought and
Speaker 1: how it played out in my head. I mean into
Speaker 1: the early years of my marriage. I mean I got
Speaker 1: married in two thousand two and still was battling a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff. I remember, you know, sharing some of
Speaker 1: the stuff with my wife and uh that was that
Speaker 1: was that was a moment there. Yeah, certainly lots of
Speaker 1: prayer checklists and uh yeah, and you know, rigid adherents.
Speaker 1: You know, we had Richard Roron recently. May or may
Speaker 1: not have heard of him. He's a he's a Catholic priest,
Speaker 1: more on the mystical side, but he talks about that
Speaker 1: same idea that you know, this idea of what he
Speaker 1: calls him the hot sins, you know, the sex, the pornography,
Speaker 1: that drinking, that like, that's the most basic level, and
Speaker 1: that that's where a lot of people get stuck in
Speaker 1: religion and not getting onto the deeper uh connection, you know.
Speaker 1: And and so I'm not a Christian, but I strongly
Speaker 1: believe in a spiritual life, and I strongly believe that
Speaker 1: our connection to things, whether those things be our internal,
Speaker 1: higher self external things, that the connection is is really
Speaker 1: a huge part of the game. And rigid behavior really
Speaker 1: doesn't foster that. Now, it can get in the way
Speaker 1: of it if you're out of control, but just by
Speaker 1: having that under control does not necessarily mean the rest
Speaker 1: of its work. Yeah. And the thing with Christianity too,
Speaker 1: is and I'm speaking from a standpoint of you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not the sort of Christian that says I'm sure
Speaker 1: that I am right and everybody else is wrong. I mean,
Speaker 1: bottom line is I have faith, but I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean until until we die, I don't think that
Speaker 1: we can know. But if you take Christianity and it's
Speaker 1: purest form the rigid us and don't and all of
Speaker 1: that stuff is just so contrary to what Jesus stood
Speaker 1: for in the first place. I mean, he was just like, hey,
Speaker 1: just just follow me and I'll take care of the rest.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not condemning you anymore. I'm not judging
Speaker 1: you anymore, which is just crazy, because that sort of
Speaker 1: stuff is what screwed me over, stuff that was anti Jesus.
Speaker 1: I mean, here, I am being brought up in a church,
Speaker 1: and the stuff that I was being taught and stuff
Speaker 1: that was just wreaking havoc on my brain. Literally was
Speaker 1: stuff that Christianity doesn't even entail, you know, just super
Speaker 1: backwards approach. But you found your way through that and
Speaker 1: didn't become disillusioned with all religion. You're you're a pastor,
Speaker 1: so so you found you know, I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people end up being driven away by some of
Speaker 1: the things you're talking about. In your case, you managed
Speaker 1: to uh. I guess I'm not sure what the right
Speaker 1: word is, transform or overcome, but but find a way
Speaker 1: to find a Christianity that that works for you. And
Speaker 1: here here here again for me, it's uh, I know
Speaker 1: that what I like like, I like to preface. My
Speaker 1: friends make fun of me for preffing so much. So.
Speaker 1: None of these statements are intended to be like evangelistic.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to save people's statements. This is personal reflections,
Speaker 1: So for me personally, there have been times in the
Speaker 1: past even few years, and I've been a pastor now
Speaker 1: for nine years, and there's been times where I've just
Speaker 1: been literally scared out of my mind, just like, gosh,
Speaker 1: I don't there's so many doubts, so many questions, so
Speaker 1: many things that I'm unsure of and not sure of anymore.
Speaker 1: And I've said this a thousand times on our Bad
Speaker 1: Christian podcast, so they're sick of hearing it. But I
Speaker 1: literally have felt the craziest piece come over me. And
Speaker 1: I didn't ask for it. I didn't meditate, I didn't
Speaker 1: sit there, you know, trying to train my thoughts to
Speaker 1: go into like a peaceful place. It just came over me.
Speaker 1: And to me, that's everything that I've ever thought of
Speaker 1: as far as Jesus like. So for me, that's the
Speaker 1: personal relationship with Jesus, as far as him saying, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm with you. You don't have the fear any of
Speaker 1: this this stuff, like where you're at and your questions
Speaker 1: and your thoughts, it's all good. Just relax, everything's cool.
Speaker 1: And then honestly, that piece goes away like it's almost
Speaker 1: like a father patent his son on the head. Saying hey,
Speaker 1: it's okay, chill out, you're good, don't worry about it,
Speaker 1: and you know I'm with you. But I'm not always
Speaker 1: gonna reveal myself to you in this way. So that's
Speaker 1: really what's kept me going. I mean, honestly, there there
Speaker 1: have been times, uh that you know, I've been super
Speaker 1: scared as a as a pastor so yeah, A couple
Speaker 1: of thoughts on that. I mean, one is I think
Speaker 1: regardless of again using different terms, but I've become more
Speaker 1: convinced as time has gone on. I used to think differently.
Speaker 1: We talked earlier about making effort towards rigid behavior. I
Speaker 1: think I went from that to thinking on some level
Speaker 1: that if I meditated enough, if I got my thoughts
Speaker 1: right enough. But as time has gone on, I've started
Speaker 1: to recognize some element of I think the word you know,
Speaker 1: you could use the word grace or you know, for me,
Speaker 1: I was you know, I'm a recovering alcoholic and addict
Speaker 1: and and a a you know, you've got this thing
Speaker 1: where you're turning your will and your life over right,
Speaker 1: And I had these moments where I was like, what
Speaker 1: am I turning my will in my life over to
Speaker 1: and for me, I realized it almost didn't matter, right.
Speaker 1: It was me letting go of clenching so tightly to
Speaker 1: everything that if I let go, and I think spiritual
Speaker 1: practice for me, I'm recognizing a little bit more of
Speaker 1: that too, Like okay, and I'm always on this show
Speaker 1: kind of asking the question about like how do you
Speaker 1: strive and want to be a better person and live
Speaker 1: a better life, and also except where you are, except
Speaker 1: who you are, and enjoy the life you have. Like
Speaker 1: those things seem to be a balancing act. You know, Honestly,
Speaker 1: I don't wanna just any other beliefs or wherever, but
Speaker 1: I feel like, however people believe and however they are
Speaker 1: moving along in their life journey, if it's moving closer
Speaker 1: to feeling bad about themselves and feeling more constricted and
Speaker 1: more bondage, I'm just I feel like I'm comfortable with saying, hey,
Speaker 1: I think that's wrong, which is so ironic because that's
Speaker 1: typically a lot of church circles pushes people in that direction.
Speaker 1: And again I'll restate, I don't feel like that's what
Speaker 1: Jesus about at all, But I mean, any any time
Speaker 1: people are are moving towards more freedom, I'm just like, gosh,
Speaker 1: that's because honestly, as humans, can't we all understand, Hey,
Speaker 1: we're all pretty jacked up. And so let's let ourselves
Speaker 1: off the hook a little bit and realize that we're
Speaker 1: jacked up, and let's accept that, and now let's move
Speaker 1: on and let ourselves off the hook, not beat ourselves
Speaker 1: up all the time, and just be like, Okay, I'm trying.
Speaker 1: I mean, God help me, I'm trying, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: trying to do what I can do. Each day. I'm
Speaker 1: taking one day at a time. I'm going to mess up,
Speaker 1: and all I can say is I'm trying. Yep. I
Speaker 1: love not being a Christian but living in a country
Speaker 1: that has a tremendous you know, Christianity still is a
Speaker 1: major part of this country. I love seeing guys like
Speaker 1: you and Science Mike and Richard Roar, you know, talking
Speaker 1: about a Christianity that really resonates strongly with me and
Speaker 1: really seems like a sane version of it. It's just
Speaker 1: it's I mean, it's just so nice to see it,
Speaker 1: you know. And I love the doubt piece that you
Speaker 1: guys are bringing in this I don't know all the
Speaker 1: answers um and I don't have to know all the
Speaker 1: answers in order to engage in a practice in a
Speaker 1: way of life. Yeah, I mean, and some of the
Speaker 1: stuff that I struggled with growing up, there's actually a
Speaker 1: scientific terminology. It's called scrupulosity. And I was from my
Speaker 1: book I was researching and stumbled upon this, And when
Speaker 1: I was reading the depictions and and people's personal autobiographical
Speaker 1: the depiction of just how their thoughts operated for years
Speaker 1: and years and years of their lives, I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, Like, there are lots of people out
Speaker 1: there like me. Now I will say they they say
Speaker 1: that's one of the rarest forms of O c D.
Speaker 1: But still the fact that there's terminology for it. You know,
Speaker 1: we're talking thousands, tens of thousands of people at least
Speaker 1: that have these sorts of struggles and it's just insane.
Speaker 1: And and I think what I have, part of part
Speaker 1: of the freedom I found, is realizing just how much
Speaker 1: science plays a role in this. Like it's a lot
Speaker 1: of my problems weren't spiritual. A lot of my problems
Speaker 1: were that I I had trained with other people's helped
Speaker 1: and I use that help word loosely, but I trained
Speaker 1: my brain to mess me up. You know, I trained
Speaker 1: my brain to think thoughts of of of bondage and
Speaker 1: beating myself up and and fear, constant fear, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know O c D thoughts and irrational thoughts and
Speaker 1: all that stuff. And so my brain had been trained
Speaker 1: year after year after year after year, and I had
Speaker 1: to relearn and I think really recognize saying okay, is
Speaker 1: it in just a spiritual matter? My brain is an
Speaker 1: organ that operates, and it gets used to certain things.
Speaker 1: And you have three training. That's why counselors are so important,
Speaker 1: and people that are experts in the psychology field because
Speaker 1: they can help you on tie some of those knots.
Speaker 1: If you value the content we put out each week,
Speaker 1: then we need your help. As the show has grown,
Speaker 1: so have our expenses and time commitment. Go to one
Speaker 1: you feed dot net slash support and make a monthly donation.
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Speaker 1: out these interviews and ideas. We really need your help
Speaker 1: to make the show sustainable and long lasting. Again, that's
Speaker 1: one you feed dot net slash support. Thank you in
Speaker 1: advance for your help. I saw a comedian the other night,
Speaker 1: Brian Reagan, who said something like he introduced the topic
Speaker 1: of the presidency, and he said, I've never been so
Speaker 1: scared to talk about anything in my entire life. Right,
Speaker 1: this is a loaded time, and so I don't want
Speaker 1: to get into politics. But I do want to talk
Speaker 1: about a couple of things that I've heard you say,
Speaker 1: because they resonate a lot with me. I despite what
Speaker 1: concerns I might have about what's happening politically, I am
Speaker 1: more worried about how we're acting towards each other and
Speaker 1: treating each other. And I heard you say my goal
Speaker 1: is to be part of the catalyst for unity, listening
Speaker 1: in mutual understanding. We're all right on some things and
Speaker 1: we're all wrong on some things. Yeah, I mean, because
Speaker 1: if if we think about it, I mean, come on,
Speaker 1: and like when Obama was president, you had just now,
Speaker 1: let me back up a little bit. Trump is an enigma.
Speaker 1: I mean, Trump is kind of an exception in my opinion,
Speaker 1: to you know, the Bush haters and the Obama haters.
Speaker 1: I mean, Trump is like, oh my gosh, this right right,
Speaker 1: But let's look through history. I mean, you had people
Speaker 1: that just hated George Bush. I mean just I think
Speaker 1: at that point you could say that was the most
Speaker 1: polarized our country has ever been at that point in time.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, maybe maybe it just remained consistent
Speaker 1: with Obama. I don't think it. I don't think it
Speaker 1: was more polarized, maybe a little less, but um, just
Speaker 1: throughout our country and what what's really changed? I mean,
Speaker 1: what did Obama really just jack up our country? I mean,
Speaker 1: are we are we now seeing the demise of America?
Speaker 1: Are we in a second great depression? You know, when
Speaker 1: George Bush was president, the things just completely fall apart
Speaker 1: of me. Nine eleven happened. Seems like things should have
Speaker 1: following apart. And it's just like, I love America. I
Speaker 1: don't think America is like this great above reproach country.
Speaker 1: But I'm an American. I I love what are you
Speaker 1: know soldiers have done in the past. As far as fighting,
Speaker 1: you know, my grandpa fought in War two, at least
Speaker 1: in his mind was it was a good cause. People
Speaker 1: gave their lives up. So I feel like I'm even patriotic.
Speaker 1: But as far as our country being above reproach and
Speaker 1: not doing evil. That's stupid thought. So along the way,
Speaker 1: I mean, our country has kind of been just staying
Speaker 1: on the same level. And so what I don't understand
Speaker 1: is how people can't see that we are what makes
Speaker 1: the country like, it's the people, and despite what's going
Speaker 1: on in the government, if we can't figure out how
Speaker 1: to coexist and we can't figure out how to love
Speaker 1: one another and have conversations, I mean, once the conversation
Speaker 1: ends to where one side cannot hear the other side
Speaker 1: and the other side can't hear the other, it's it's like, well,
Speaker 1: wait a second, that's dangerous territory. I mean, I mean,
Speaker 1: is it is it out of the question to think
Speaker 1: that there could be a civil war at some point?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean it sounds crazy and barbaric,
Speaker 1: but it's like people are so stupid to think that
Speaker 1: they are a hundred percent correct and the other side
Speaker 1: is a wrong. I mean, to me, that is ignorance
Speaker 1: at its highest level. To assume your beliefs are hundred
Speaker 1: percent right and everybody else there dumbasses. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: just the stupidest thing I've ever heard my life. It
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense. Yeah, the thing I've seen and that
Speaker 1: I find most disturbing, and I'm going to quote you
Speaker 1: in a minute to back it up, is I just
Speaker 1: think that each side keeps picking out the worst example
Speaker 1: of the other side and using it as the example
Speaker 1: of the other side. You know, and you said, assuming
Speaker 1: that all voters for Trump are racist and all voters
Speaker 1: for Hillary, you know, love killing babies, that's what we're doing.
Speaker 1: We're picking the worst example of the other side and
Speaker 1: using that. And as long as we keep doing that,
Speaker 1: of course those people are despicable right now. And you know,
Speaker 1: you get too far on the extreme on either side,
Speaker 1: and I think you find you know, you find problems.
Speaker 1: But I'm just so concerned about our inability to dialogue
Speaker 1: about it in a you know, semi rational way. And
Speaker 1: I think that the more angry everybody gets about their side,
Speaker 1: the more entrenched the other side gets. And and so
Speaker 1: I just really appreciated kind of hearing some of the
Speaker 1: things you you said about it, because I think you
Speaker 1: were you know, we're coming from kind of the same
Speaker 1: place on that, which is like we got to find
Speaker 1: a way to you know, move together and listen to
Speaker 1: each other. And and you know, assume positive intent, you know.
Speaker 1: Is that's a big thing that I found in my
Speaker 1: life is to try and assume positive intent. Now again,
Speaker 1: you know, I think that there are times that that
Speaker 1: is challenging and depending on your views, but I agree
Speaker 1: with you. I think the solution is going to come from,
Speaker 1: you know, us finding ways to to talk to each
Speaker 1: other better. And I will say that I think part
Speaker 1: of the major problem with our country right now, in
Speaker 1: this season of our country, is just this crazy fear
Speaker 1: of what Trump is capable of doing. And I just
Speaker 1: happened to have a little more faith in our structure
Speaker 1: and in our people and in Republicans and in Democrats
Speaker 1: that no one's going to let Trump cross those lines
Speaker 1: that everybody fears. I mean, do you really, I mean,
Speaker 1: people have mentioned this guy is capable of doing what
Speaker 1: Adolph Hitler. I'm like, give me a break. Do you
Speaker 1: not think that his own party would ever even be like, dude,
Speaker 1: you and sorry, we're gonna get you impeached like you
Speaker 1: are you are crossing some dangerous territory. No, no, sir,
Speaker 1: we are not allowing this. I mean, but people really
Speaker 1: do just let their thoughts go wild and think, man,
Speaker 1: this guy is capable of doing the worst stuff ever.
Speaker 1: I tend to agree with you. I see a lot
Speaker 1: of behavior that really frightens me, trying to silence the press,
Speaker 1: trying to do all that. But but if you think
Speaker 1: of where Nazi Germany was, right, they were in a
Speaker 1: whole different place than we are. They had a government
Speaker 1: that was barely functioning at all, and it had just
Speaker 1: been erected, right. They were like in the Great Depression
Speaker 1: after having lost the war. I mean, it was a
Speaker 1: disaster over there, you know. And I tend to agree
Speaker 1: with you. I think that we as a country and
Speaker 1: our structural systems are strong enough now. I think unfortunately,
Speaker 1: a lot of individual lives get caught in the crossfire
Speaker 1: while we sorted out, and that's that's unfortunate and and
Speaker 1: hard to watch. But I tend to have your optimism too,
Speaker 1: that says, hey, you know, in the long run, this
Speaker 1: is gonna be a blip on the radar. But you know,
Speaker 1: like I said, there are people now, who are you know,
Speaker 1: feeling some of some of the impacts. I was in
Speaker 1: uh New Mexico last week, and you see these signs
Speaker 1: along the road encouraging people to make sure that they
Speaker 1: have power attorney for their children in case, you know,
Speaker 1: they're deported to marrow. That's just hard to see that
Speaker 1: kind of thing. So anyway, all right, let's get off
Speaker 1: that subject. That was I hesitate to wait in, but
Speaker 1: I liked your your approach, So let's talk about another
Speaker 1: of my favorite topics, which is depression. So you're man,
Speaker 1: you're a dude. That's your favorite I know now. I
Speaker 1: I say that tongue in cheek, but it does come
Speaker 1: up a fair amount on the show, given given my background,
Speaker 1: and and you've got a similar one. And I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about depression in the sense that I'm gonna
Speaker 1: just read something you wrote because I think it's interesting.
Speaker 1: And I wrestle with this question, which is all I
Speaker 1: know is everything is negative, and I'm back up on
Speaker 1: that dock, gasping for air in the storm clouds roll in.
Speaker 1: There's nothing else I can do. So I waited out,
Speaker 1: knowing this storm won't last forever. I may be wrong
Speaker 1: to see it this way, but I haven't found a solution,
Speaker 1: and I have learned to start treating about the depression
Speaker 1: very similarly. I almost think of him as like having
Speaker 1: the emotional flu like it just comes and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: hang in there and it's gonna go away. But I
Speaker 1: think in reading your book, I think you've got the
Speaker 1: same sort of a little bit of that seems to
Speaker 1: be the most tenable and useful approach, And yet is
Speaker 1: there something more I should be doing? Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: that book was written. A lot of that subject matter
Speaker 1: and content was written a year ago, and I think
Speaker 1: that I've learned a lot since then. But yeah, most
Speaker 1: of that, I'm I'm still at that place of of
Speaker 1: seeing depression in this light. And what I'd say about
Speaker 1: that is there are times when I truly believe that
Speaker 1: there's not a whole hell of a lot I can
Speaker 1: do with my depression is just there and I can't
Speaker 1: do anything about it. And I would I would put
Speaker 1: that in the same category as you get the stomach
Speaker 1: bug and you start throwing up. You can't just say, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm going to start doing some different tricks with my
Speaker 1: stomach to knock this out right now. Now, you just
Speaker 1: have it, and you've got to figure out how to
Speaker 1: get through it. Uh and and and when it's over,
Speaker 1: it's over. Now. Before getting the stomach bug, if you
Speaker 1: know what's going around, you can wash your hands. You
Speaker 1: can stay away from the person that has it, and
Speaker 1: you can do all sorts of stuff to keep yourself
Speaker 1: from it, just like I believe there are ways of
Speaker 1: helping your brain stay away from these pits of depression
Speaker 1: and those sorts of things. But I really believe, at
Speaker 1: least for me, that that there's some chemical stuff. And
Speaker 1: and I'll go so far as to say, maybe you
Speaker 1: can always figure out how to avoid depression. Maybe that's true,
Speaker 1: But bottom line is, I don't think any of us
Speaker 1: is smart enough to to know always how to navigate
Speaker 1: our brains from from going in a certain direction. So
Speaker 1: when I'm there, I've struggled with depression for long enough
Speaker 1: to know and and it's actually pretty encouraging. I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I know that I'm depressed right now. I know my
Speaker 1: outlook on life is not really how Joey sees Lie.
Speaker 1: I know the stuff that's making me sad when my
Speaker 1: depression is over is not going to make me sad.
Speaker 1: I just need to ride this out and accept the
Speaker 1: fact that my brain is not operating right. And that's
Speaker 1: that's actually brought me a lot of peace. Where early on,
Speaker 1: when I was struggling with depression. I didn't have that insight.
Speaker 1: I just I was totally convinced. No. The way that
Speaker 1: I'm thinking right now is reality that that was tough.
Speaker 1: That was really tough stuff. Yeah, I I love everything
Speaker 1: you just said there. I love the analogy of I've
Speaker 1: used the one of the emotional flu a lot. I
Speaker 1: love the analogy you made about what you can do
Speaker 1: in a preventative sense, and I agree. I think one
Speaker 1: of the mysteries or the things in paradox or things
Speaker 1: is difficult about depression is, on one hand, it happens
Speaker 1: to you, and it's very hard to deal with and
Speaker 1: and you know, you had a great line which was
Speaker 1: basically something along. You know, it's hard to properly evaluate
Speaker 1: a situation when your brain is the problem, right, And
Speaker 1: so once you're in depression, there are some very difficult
Speaker 1: like you said, it's very can be very difficult to
Speaker 1: get out of. I also believe at the same time
Speaker 1: that we are responsible for dealing with our depression, and
Speaker 1: I think there are things that we can do that
Speaker 1: make it more likely, like you said, that we're you know,
Speaker 1: for me, if I'm exercising regularly, if I'm meditating regularly,
Speaker 1: I have a much better chance. If I'm connecting to friends,
Speaker 1: I've had a much better chance of staying out of
Speaker 1: those pits. When I stopped doing that stuff, I usually
Speaker 1: will find my way into you know, feeling kind of
Speaker 1: kind of lousy. But I love your attitude of you
Speaker 1: know what, I could be all wrong about depression, right like,
Speaker 1: this is what I this is the best I've come
Speaker 1: up with right now, this is what I've learned, this
Speaker 1: is what I think, and you know what I I
Speaker 1: could uh, I could be wrong, And I think that's
Speaker 1: a great way to to have humility about looking at it.
Speaker 1: And so I always try and strike that line too
Speaker 1: of I don't want to make a big rucus about this,
Speaker 1: right because you know, in the middle of depression is
Speaker 1: not the time to start evaluating the entire direction of
Speaker 1: your life, right. But that's what it feels like, you know.
Speaker 1: And so it's like I want to write it out
Speaker 1: as sort of you know, the cold of the flu,
Speaker 1: and yet at the same time, there is more to it,
Speaker 1: and how can I be working on those things? And
Speaker 1: so much of what you wrote kind of hit home
Speaker 1: with me as far as what my experience has been
Speaker 1: in the ways that I found to sort of stop
Speaker 1: it from being such a huge deal, you know, And
Speaker 1: I think being sick is a great analogy because when
Speaker 1: you feel sick, you're just kind of like, you know,
Speaker 1: everything looks crappy, And that's been a big relief to me.
Speaker 1: You say, don't ever assume a depressed person is slacking
Speaker 1: on troubleshooting their problem. Remember, depressed people are mentally and
Speaker 1: emotionally crippled and may not have the strength to do
Speaker 1: what is obvious to you. Instead, have some grace. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the two sides of that is if you are depressed
Speaker 1: and people are not adhering to those instructions, we also
Speaker 1: have to have grace for them because we have to
Speaker 1: we have to realize that we're hurting people. We're hurting,
Speaker 1: but our hurt is also hurting other people. And you know,
Speaker 1: but I do you know, let's let's camp out on
Speaker 1: that though is you know, if you know someone that's depressed,
Speaker 1: I mean, just just you gotta think about the brain
Speaker 1: as a physical organ and so make the jump of Okay,
Speaker 1: if this guy had a broken leg and we had
Speaker 1: plans to play flag football Saturday, I wouldn't be piste
Speaker 1: at him because he wasn't able to play. I'd be like, well,
Speaker 1: that sucks, you have a broken leg, so are you
Speaker 1: gonna miss out on flag football? And it's it's one
Speaker 1: of those things to where you have to realize that
Speaker 1: if if the brain is a physical organ, then there
Speaker 1: has to be some things that that person who's struggling
Speaker 1: with depression is just is just unable to do. And
Speaker 1: just like you don't assume you know the person with
Speaker 1: the broken leg, you're not assuming oh, you're not doing anything,
Speaker 1: you know to get better. The responses yes, i am.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here, I'm relaxing my leg. I'm trying, you know,
Speaker 1: not not to walk on it and everything. Tough thing though,
Speaker 1: is when it has to do with the mind, it's
Speaker 1: just not a tangible thing that you can evaluate as
Speaker 1: far as how hard someone is trying. But you might
Speaker 1: as well give them the benefit of the doubt. And
Speaker 1: you know, unless you're super close to the person and
Speaker 1: you can tell, man, you you're not you're not making
Speaker 1: any progress. You're not even seeking counsel, you're not seeking medication,
Speaker 1: you're not doing anything. I'm your friend. I think you
Speaker 1: really need to, you know, take some steps and reaching
Speaker 1: out to someone. Yeah, that is such a tricky line.
Speaker 1: You're right, because you know, I know for me, you know,
Speaker 1: one of my favorite phrases is depression hates a moving target, right,
Speaker 1: and yet sometimes that is the hardest thing to be
Speaker 1: as a moving target when you're when you're depressed. And
Speaker 1: so I find that as someone who suffers from depression
Speaker 1: and who also has several people in my life who
Speaker 1: also have depression, that you know, I can find myself
Speaker 1: getting that feeling towards them, like, hey, come on, you
Speaker 1: can you know, it's just so funny how how hard
Speaker 1: it is to deal with that gracefully. And I really
Speaker 1: like what you say about being graceful towards the people
Speaker 1: who don't understand it also, but I think, you know,
Speaker 1: like you said, assume give them the benefit of doubt
Speaker 1: or assume positive intent was saying it. Yeah, And oddly enough,
Speaker 1: I think that's that's the trick with all relationships. And
Speaker 1: we were just talking about politics for a second a
Speaker 1: little while ago, and that's the same solution with politics
Speaker 1: is the same solution with this, and I think that's
Speaker 1: pretty much universal. Try to be more understanding and realize, hey,
Speaker 1: that is a different person than me with a different
Speaker 1: brain a different background, different relationships, and assume that you
Speaker 1: don't get the full picture before you start making judgment
Speaker 1: calls and with the press. And it couldn't be anymore true.
Speaker 1: It's just like, don't size a person up and just assume, oh,
Speaker 1: you're not stepping up to the play. You need to
Speaker 1: suck it up. You know, you need to be stronger
Speaker 1: than this. I mean, those are just maddening. It's like
Speaker 1: you can't say that to someone because it it makes
Speaker 1: the it makes the statement that you understand them more
Speaker 1: than they understand themselves. And that's just ludicrous. Yep. As
Speaker 1: you were talking earlier in this being open to not
Speaker 1: knowing a lot about depression, and I think depression is
Speaker 1: like addiction in that it is an extremely complex syndrome.
Speaker 1: There are so many factors and and when I was
Speaker 1: early on in recovery, I think I was arrogant enough
Speaker 1: to think like I know how to do it. I
Speaker 1: know how to get people, you know, get sober, and
Speaker 1: and you know, twenty years later, I am probably less
Speaker 1: sure than I've ever been about what the driving forces
Speaker 1: are in addiction. It is just such a mystery. And
Speaker 1: and we make progress, but as we make progress, we
Speaker 1: realize how much we don't know, and I think depression
Speaker 1: is similar. There's oh many factors, so many contributors, UM
Speaker 1: that you know, having a having an open mind towards Hey,
Speaker 1: there's always more to learn here. I'd be curious. So
Speaker 1: you wrote the book, what sort of things have you
Speaker 1: thought about depression that are maybe different than what was
Speaker 1: in the book. Yeah, I don't think there's anything super concrete.
Speaker 1: I go back and forth with the whole question of
Speaker 1: how much control do we have? And I remember when
Speaker 1: I was writing the book, it was a very fresh
Speaker 1: idea and it was super humbling to admit this because
Speaker 1: I had always been a pretty defensive person about my
Speaker 1: depression and you know, kind of like defending myself and saying,
Speaker 1: I know, I know what I'm talking about, blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: and that stuff isn't helpful. But I think as I
Speaker 1: was writing the book, it was it was during a
Speaker 1: time where I was just like, wait a second, I
Speaker 1: think I do have a little more say in which
Speaker 1: direction my brain goes and where my thoughts go. Because
Speaker 1: every seven years are our church UM requires pastors to
Speaker 1: go on a month sabbatical in the place where they
Speaker 1: send you. You get some free counseling. And it's a
Speaker 1: super gifted psychologist that I talked to, and he was
Speaker 1: so helpful and and opening my eyes just to the
Speaker 1: ways my brain goes, and he's just I mean, helping
Speaker 1: me see those those just aren't those aren't right, those
Speaker 1: aren't good thoughts. And so obviously that's going to open
Speaker 1: my eyes to be like, whoa wait a second. If
Speaker 1: this guy showed me that in like three hours, what
Speaker 1: are some other things I'm missing? And so and you know,
Speaker 1: I was using that sabbatical to write this book. So
Speaker 1: I was like, man, this is this is crazy. But
Speaker 1: that's that's what I go up and down on. I
Speaker 1: do think we have more control than I originally thought,
Speaker 1: but I also am I am at a place where
Speaker 1: I think there's sometimes it's just like there's nothing we
Speaker 1: can do. But I think that fluctuates. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: think I'll ever know. I don't I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: if we can ever know how much control we have
Speaker 1: over our depression. Yeah, And I think depression has, you know,
Speaker 1: different levels of severity, right like you know, I know
Speaker 1: people who have had, you know, depression that makes mine
Speaker 1: look like a stroll in the park, and so I'm
Speaker 1: always hesitant to be like, well, exercise and eating right
Speaker 1: will do it for you, you know, Like I know
Speaker 1: for me, I have discovered for myself the levers that
Speaker 1: I can pull that help, and I'm I'm always looking
Speaker 1: for new ones to pull. So, you know, I believe
Speaker 1: it false for myself somewhere in that middle ground of
Speaker 1: I do have some control, and then there are some
Speaker 1: things that are not in my control. And and sometimes
Speaker 1: that goalpost might even move, you know, this year versus
Speaker 1: last year. So it is a big mystery. We're nearing
Speaker 1: the end of time. But I wanted to touch on
Speaker 1: one more thing that you talked about in your book.
Speaker 1: And I really like this. So you know, you're a
Speaker 1: pastor and you're being open about all this stuff is
Speaker 1: is remarkable, right, and I think it's wonderful. Um you
Speaker 1: being open about the struggles and how life isn't easy.
Speaker 1: You talk about how to be open. You've got some
Speaker 1: things in the end of the book. I think they
Speaker 1: might be for discussion groups, right, and you describe here's
Speaker 1: being open and here's not. So I'm just going to
Speaker 1: read these to you, you know, so this is being open.
Speaker 1: I'm beginning to realize I rarely think I'm wrong, and
Speaker 1: I end up belittling my life when we argue, I
Speaker 1: feel like crap about it, but feels so defensive. I
Speaker 1: don't know what to do about it. So that's one
Speaker 1: way of sharing and in a useful way. And then
Speaker 1: you talk about the other way, which is this, I
Speaker 1: struggle with pride. And I loved that because the difference
Speaker 1: between those two things is really big. Like I used
Speaker 1: to be so good at telling you about what I
Speaker 1: struggle with when I'm not struggling with it, you know,
Speaker 1: after I figured out the answer, you know, I struggle
Speaker 1: with pride. But then what I did was that that
Speaker 1: earlier statement is so much harder to do and yet
Speaker 1: so much more valuable for us. And the people were
Speaker 1: around totally totally. Yeah. It tickles maybe because when when
Speaker 1: a bunch of Christians are together and they're like, hey, man,
Speaker 1: let's let's be transparent, let's open up, let's share struggles.
Speaker 1: When someone says, yeah, I'm really struggling with pride, I
Speaker 1: just want to say, like, ship, like everybody struggles with pride?
Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? Like can you get a little
Speaker 1: more specific, like what how does that impact your life.
Speaker 1: I mean, you show me someone that doesn't struggle with pride,
Speaker 1: and I'll say, well, they're prideful for thinking that they
Speaker 1: don't struggle with pride. I mean, it's just crazy, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I um, I think the differences in those
Speaker 1: two statements is obviously that's easy to say I start
Speaker 1: with pride, Yeah, we all do. But man, that's not
Speaker 1: easy to say, Yeah, because of my pride, I belittle
Speaker 1: the person that I should be the most loving with.
Speaker 1: That's two different things, because you're being vulnerable in a
Speaker 1: way of here's what it looks like behind closed doors
Speaker 1: nobody else sees, and you wouldn't know unless I'm telling
Speaker 1: you right now. That's that's transparency, and that's being open,
Speaker 1: not just uh. And honestly, maybe somebody would say, well,
Speaker 1: if you admit to uh, you know, wherever your beliefs lie,
Speaker 1: you probably see even this um subject matter differently. But
Speaker 1: you know, most Christians would say, you know, lusting after
Speaker 1: other people sexually, you know, would be a sin. So
Speaker 1: it would be easy for a guy to say, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've been having a hard time, you know, not keeping
Speaker 1: my eyes off women and and that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: Totally different story. To say yes, I actually last night
Speaker 1: looked at pornography and masturbated to it. And that's the
Speaker 1: latter is transparency. The former is just like, Okay, that
Speaker 1: that wasn't you know, too hard to say, But that's
Speaker 1: the jacked up thing about Christianity, and honestly a lot
Speaker 1: of pastors is the inability or unwillingness to be open,
Speaker 1: because then pastors set themselves up to be this guy
Speaker 1: that everybody's aspiring to be like, and they're fake. So
Speaker 1: it's just like all the the whole congregation is like, well,
Speaker 1: that's what we need to be more like, and it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but that guy's not even how you think that they are.
Speaker 1: And then when they fall into like this big scandal
Speaker 1: or you know, their sins are revealed and everything hits
Speaker 1: the fan and you're just like, oh my gosh, I
Speaker 1: can't believe. That's just like, well, why did you think
Speaker 1: that person was perfect? Like that doesn't make any sense. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot of people want easy answers,
Speaker 1: and so it's lovely to see somebody who seems to
Speaker 1: have it all together and that's the convenient story. But
Speaker 1: I think for people who are really trying to change
Speaker 1: and be different. The type of openness that you're showing
Speaker 1: is really so much more valuable in living a real life. Now,
Speaker 1: some people are not gonna like it, right, A lot
Speaker 1: of people just don't want to go there. They don't
Speaker 1: want you to go there, and they don't want to
Speaker 1: go there, and that's fine, But I think the value
Speaker 1: of that, that real openness about what's going on is
Speaker 1: so useful. I mean, I think, you know, I get
Speaker 1: lots of letters and notes about our show, I mean
Speaker 1: from people who are really in a hard place, you know,
Speaker 1: and this does so much for him. And I think
Speaker 1: some of it is just knowing you're not alone in
Speaker 1: this stuff. Yeah, community is something I think that we
Speaker 1: all need, and even we're kind of in a technological age,
Speaker 1: and so I think a lot of people would be
Speaker 1: so quick to say, well, that's super shallow, like listening
Speaker 1: to a podcast, that's that's not real community. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I mean, who who's to say that? Is? Actually, like
Speaker 1: you said, just the just knowing that someone else is
Speaker 1: going through similar things, I mean, gives you so much
Speaker 1: strength and and so much piece not you know, I
Speaker 1: I would encourage people to actually find, you know, relationships
Speaker 1: that could even go a little deeper, but for sure
Speaker 1: that is very helpful to to hear that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: I love what you're doing because depression is definitely, you know,
Speaker 1: mental illness is definitely one of those things that it's
Speaker 1: just so taboo and people don't want to talk about,
Speaker 1: especially if if they're going through it. You know, it's
Speaker 1: one thing for experts that have studied it to say, well,
Speaker 1: here's how certain things work, and here's what a schizophrenic
Speaker 1: person is and all that, But to actually be a
Speaker 1: schizophrenic and say here's what I deal with on a
Speaker 1: day to day. There's just not enough of that. And
Speaker 1: it's the ones like me who do struggle with mental
Speaker 1: illness and our reluctance to share, but it's also everybody else.
Speaker 1: It's hey, I you know, people are reluctant to share
Speaker 1: because of how you're gonna respond. You're going to see
Speaker 1: them as as lesser humans and freaks and outcast and
Speaker 1: so it's just the cycle that feeds into each other
Speaker 1: that need needs to stop. Yeah, yeah, I agree, And
Speaker 1: I love all the work that you're doing and the
Speaker 1: Christian stuff and all that. So I've had an absolute
Speaker 1: blast talking man. Uh I could do it a lot longer,
Speaker 1: but we are. We are at the end of time,
Speaker 1: so thanks so much for coming on the show. We
Speaker 1: will have links to your podcast, your homepage, all that
Speaker 1: stuff in the show notes if anybody wants to visit,
Speaker 1: and um, thanks appreciate it. Yeah, man's good talking to you,
Speaker 1: all right, take care bye. If what you just heard
Speaker 1: was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to
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