WEBVTT - Lab 036: Shoot Your Shot - A COVID Update 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:01.880 I can't believe it's the last episode. 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:02.719 I can't either. 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:06.520 It feels like the start of this semester was like 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:09.080 twenty years ago, but then also yesterday. 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:12.119 No sense of time here. We've covered quite a few 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:14.840 things this semester, but the thread that has been just 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:17.439 tying it all together has been COVID nineteen. 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:18.400 Exactly. 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:23.280 Every single episode has been COVID adjacent because everything has 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.119 been touched by this pandemic. 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:28.200 Absolutely, back in February, we did not know it would 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:28.600 be like this. 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.639 No, you know, I wasn't ready. 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:34.159 It was maybe the first week of February when we 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:37.600 interviewed doctor Kismikia Corbett at the NIH and we saw 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.879 everybody ramping up their efforts, working late, and we felt confident. 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:43.120 We felt like the infrastructure was there. Based on what 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:46.080 we saw, we said, surely the CDC will screen people. 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:48.280 That's nothing new, That's what they're supposed to do, right, 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:49.920 And that's where we left season two. 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:56.360 Yeah, and imagine, to our souprise, everything went completely left 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:57.160 after that. 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:00.000 And some of you guys reached out. You said, hey, 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:03.000 have really changed since your last episode. When are you 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:05.160 gonna do something different? When are you gonna tell people 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:07.600 what's going on. So here we are. 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:11.600 I'm TT and I'm Zachiah and from Spotify. This is 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:40.319 Dope Labs. Coronavirus has been like a pressure cooker on 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:44.160 all things, all of the cracks in the foundation, all 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:48.240 of the deficiencies in our infrastructures. It was brought to 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:51.440 light because of the pandemic, things that we probably may 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:55.080 have never found out in our lifetime or in this generation. 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:57.880 Coronavirus said, here it is. I'm trying to light on 0:01:57.920 --> 0:01:58.680 it right now. 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:02.280 Today's episode is a coronavirus update. Is about the advances 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.440 in science and the public health plans to help communicate 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:06.360 those advances. 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.160 And what we want to do in this episode is 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:13.200 better understand what has happened since COVID began, specifically from 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:15.800 a science communication perspective. 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:19.040 Everybody became an expert. There's information everywhere, people are making 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.920 their own graphics, all kinds of things. It's hard to 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:23.639 know what to believe. And so what we want to 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.360 do is do a hard reset to say here's where 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:29.240 we are and here's what's coming next. So let's jump 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:30.960 into the recitation. What do we know? 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:32.919 I think one thing that we do know is that 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:37.640 we are experiencing another spike in COVID cases, so people 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:41.200 being admitted into the hospital and deaths are all on 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:42.160 the rise right now. 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:45.040 Yeah, and it's really interesting. If you look at a map, 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:48.239 the Midwest is being hit particularly hard, Wisconsin, North and 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:52.880 South Dakota, Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska, the whole area is dark red. 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:56.280 In the US, there have been over twelve million COVID 0:02:56.320 --> 0:03:00.720 cases and two hundred and fifty seven thousand, sixteen deaths. 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:05.440 The vaccines are here and things are happening. On November thirtieth, 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:09.760 Moderna submitted an application to the FDA for authorization of 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:14.480 this COVID nineteen vaccine, and then another committee just decided 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:17.480 healthcare workers and nursing home residents will be the first 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.800 people to get the coronavirus vaccines. Yeah, that's very true. 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.960 And some folks are excited and some folks are not 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:25.880 so excited about the vaccine rollout. 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:27.960 So with that, what do we want to know? 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.080 What do we need to know about these new vaccines 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:34.400 that are going to be available what seems like very soon. 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:37.040 And you know, this is one of the first urgent 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.600 worldwide rollout of a vaccine, and I think people need 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:41.960 to understand this is not going to be like a 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:44.360 free for all, Right, how is this going to be distributed? 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.560 Back in twenty nineteen, we talked about vaccine hesitancy in 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:50.200 one of our episodes. So, when it comes to vaccines 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:52.880 and getting vaccinated, there's like three flavors. There are people 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:55.440 who are all the way on one end of the spectrum, 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.680 and they will not get a vaccination regardless of the circumstance. 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:00.200 There's no way you can convince them. 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:03.680 Then you have people who will get the vaccine as 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:05.600 soon as it's available. But then you have this huge 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:08.680 chunk in the middle of people who are vaccine hesitant. 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:13.160 I want to know how that has changed with the coronavirus. 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:16.400 I'd imagine that people are feeling a little bit different 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.400 about being vaccinated themselves for COVID. 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:22.280 Yeah. I think that's a really good point vaccine hesitancy 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:27.279 as it relates to coronavirus, vaccine hesitancy broadly, and has 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:32.080 the game plan changed since twenty nineteen for combating vaccine hesitancy? 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:35.279 And then I guess the question that I think everyone 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:39.839 has now that we've all experienced a pandemic, will there 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:44.440 be another pandemic like COVID? Nineteen and what have we 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:48.560 learned that can get us through a pandemic better the 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:49.200 next time? 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:53.920 All right, let's jump into the dissection. 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:57.760 Our guests today are doctor Rue, Polly Lamay, and Molly Sour. 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:01.560 I'm Rue Poly Lamay. I am a Associate scientist at 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.000 the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, and I 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:07.479 am in three departments Department of International Health, Epidemiology, and 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:09.000 Health Behavior in Society. 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:11.960 I'm Mollie Sower and I'm a research associate at the 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:15.000 International Vaccine Access Center and the Department of International Health, 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:17.480 also at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.960 Doctor LeMay is a repeat guest. We had her back 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:24.960 on Lab four, Protect Your Neck, which was all about vaccines. 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.240 Yes, and she told us all about how vaccines work 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:32.680 and what happens when you take a vaccine. The vaccine 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:36.080 is basically like a movie trailer. It's a preview of 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:38.960 the viruses to come so you can recognize it when 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:43.080 it actually comes. So it just prepped your body and says, hey, 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:45.200 be on a lookout for this dude that's going to 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:46.720 show up or who might show up. 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:49.360 So we had doctor LeMay in Lab four with Protect 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.640 your Neck. That was the introduction of vaccines. Then we 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:55.360 had a chance to talk to doctor Kismikia Corbett who 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:57.359 was working at the National Institute of Health, and she 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:01.080 was working on the coronavirus vaccine that's actually the Maderna 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:03.240 vaccine that's been getting a lot of press lately, and 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:05.880 so we wanted our guests to walk us through how 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.200 we got to a vaccine being ready for public distribution 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.080 so soon from February to December. 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.680 Here in the United States, what we can normally do 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:19.200 from an administration perspective is do something called an emergency 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.559 Use authorization through the FDA, and essentially what that does 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:24.960 is that speeds up the process to get some sort 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:26.560 of therapeutic to the market. 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:30.280 People are hearing emergency Use authorization, it's easy to think 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:32.720 this has been rushed through, and it doesn't help that 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:36.360 the administration called this committee Operation Warp Speed. 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:39.160 So what they're doing with the Emergency Use authorization is 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:44.400 that they are shortening the process to approve the vaccine 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:47.560 so that everybody can get it faster. This pandemic is 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:49.440 going on, lots of people are getting sick, lots of 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:51.159 people are dying, so there has to be a response 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:53.800 to that, like, we can't have the same process that 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.360 you would normally go through for a full FDA approval. 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:00.240 But in fact, the emergency use authorization allows the FDA 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:03.919 to focus more on shepherding this through, right, so devoting 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:06.719 more resources here to this process. Whereas normally you have 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:08.520 to wait they have a certain amount of time. They 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.480 can now put everybody on this project. So for some 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:14.440 of the rules that used to exist for these medical countermeasures, 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:16.640 they might not be so necessary, or there may be 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:20.040 some things that you don't actually need, or waiting periods 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:23.400 that you can reduce in a safe manner. It helps 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:25.120 you get to this place where you can have broad 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:26.440 distribution earlier. 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:28.600 So the reason that this is important for us when 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:32.080 we're talking about this is that we can essentially break 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:35.640 the cycle of the pandemic in two ways. Right, people 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:38.280 can be exposed to the virus or they get a vaccine. 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:40.800 Unfortunately a lot of people have already been exposed to 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.840 the virus. We can increase her immunity by getting people 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:47.600 the vaccine. And so with these two things together, we 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:49.960 will be able to fingerish crossed. We will be able 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:51.600 to break out of the pandemic. Because I think we 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:54.000 talked about last time, what does a virus want to do? 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:56.480 The literal reason that it's alive is because it wants 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.600 to replicate. If there is not a host for it 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.440 to replicate, it cannot continue to live and it dies out. 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:03.440 So that's how we control outbreaks. 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:07.080 So when we think about controlling the outbreak with the vaccines, 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:11.000 and you consider this emergency use authorization, there are a 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:14.240 couple of things you want to understand to measure how 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:15.480 well a vaccine works. 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.640 You've probably heard the term efficacy and heard the term effectiveness. 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:21.880 We're throwing around a couple of different terms sort of interchangeably, 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:23.760 but there is a bit of a difference that's important 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:24.240 to note. 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:29.280 Efficacy is basically how well the vaccine works in the last. 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:31.520 So when we're talking about the information coming out of 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:34.640 these clinical trials, these human trials that have been done 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:37.600 over the last several months, we're looking at efficacy, which 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:38.240 is in a. 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:40.120 Controlled setting where we're setting. 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:43.439 Up specific individuals who are receiving a placebo and the 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:45.240 receiving a vaccine. 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:47.600 We are getting a measure of how. 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:51.120 That vaccine is working to prevent infection or prevent disease 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:52.439 among those individuals. 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:56.600 The effectiveness of a vaccine is once a vaccine is 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:00.440 put out into the population, how well it works in 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:01.160 the real world. 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:03.880 When we go into a broader population, we can start 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:06.319 to measure effectiveness, which is sort of taking out that 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:10.400 controlled component of the environment that we're testing. 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:13.400 It in effectiveness. We can't know that until the vaccine 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:16.000 is distributed because there are a couple of other things 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:19.240 that we don't consider host factors. So we're the hosts, 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:22.520 humans are hosting this virus. When you get infected with coronavirus, 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:26.400 are you older, are you younger? Which underline medical conditions 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:29.720 have better outcomes after being vaccinated. Do you have a 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:33.560 history of other prior infections? What's your other vaccination record 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:36.640 that may give you some additional benefits, right, And so 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:38.960 we'll start to get more of this data when we 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:40.679 get a larger data set. We can only get a 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:44.320 larger data set when we distribute this broadly. Yeah, we 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:46.760 need more people to participate so we can kind of 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.439 understand some of these host factors and how they're involved. 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:52.760 The other thing is virus factors. It may depend on 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:54.640 your viral load, what you're exposed to. 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:57.560 If other people in your community are more likely to 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:01.559 get the vaccine. The effectiveness in your community may be higher, 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:03.559 but then in another community it might be lower. 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:08.319 Right, that's basically cocooning. If everybody around you is vaccinated, 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:10.559 the virus can't replicate in them and they can't give 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:11.000 it to you. 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:11.920 My cousin did this. 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:15.040 We had a Christmas party in Chicago and my cousin 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:17.480 had just had a baby. She told us, if you 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.680 plan on being around the baby, which we all did 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:23.120 we're very excited, you have to get a flu shot. 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:25.319 So we all got flu shots. 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:28.560 Right, And so what your cousin is doing, She's saying, Hey, 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:30.640 my baby can't get a flu shot because the flu 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:33.440 shot isn't recommended for anybody under six months, So you 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:35.600 guys have to get a flu shot so you won't 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.640 be a host that brings the flu virus to my child. 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:40.800 She was making sure that you guys were creating a cocoon. 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:44.880 So we asked doctor LeMay about the specific vaccines that 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:48.480 have been recently developed to combat the coronavirus, What are 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:52.000 their efficacy rates and what should we expect. 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:55.440 So in the case of vaccines, the good news is 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:57.920 is for both the Pfizer product as well as the 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:01.360 Maderna product. Is that when we are seeing these initial 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:05.319 numbers right of ninety percent effectiveness ninety five percent effectiveness. 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:07.280 To be honest, I think most of us that work 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:10.080 in vaccine science these numbers are astonishing. 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:15.040 So the Maderna vaccine has an efficacy rate of ninety 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:18.400 four point five percent. The Fiser vaccine has an efficsc 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:22.080 rate of ninety five percent. So on November twenty third, 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:25.960 Astrazenica announced their vaccine had an average efficacy rate of 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:28.959 seventy percent. Remember that's in the lab doing the tests. 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.040 Moderna came out and said they had a vaccine with 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:35.120 an efficacy rate of ninety four point five percent, and 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:37.160 then Piser came out and said that they had a 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.960 vaccine with an efficacy rate of ninety five percent. This 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:43.720 sounds very good ninety five cent a in my book, 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:47.320 but I don't know what that means in comparison to 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:48.880 other vaccines. 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:52.920 I believe the typical effectiveness for the flu vaccine is 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.319 somewhere around fifty to sixty percent. Measles is a vaccine 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:59.960 that is much higher in the levels of effectiveness and evaccine, 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:02.560 but it has to be because we have to have 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:06.080 such community conferred among these communities to actually protect people. 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:09.880 I think the flu vaccine is a perfect comparison to 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:14.240 what we know about the coronavirus vaccine. The effectiveness, remember 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:16.720 that's in the community. Out in the real world, the 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.840 effectiveness of the flu vaccine is lower, is fifty to 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:22.880 sixty percent. And the reason that kind of changes is 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:26.199 because of host factors. So did you get your flu 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:28.880 vaccine early? Did you go to Walgreens like they told 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:31.560 you to get that flu vaccine? Did you wait too late? 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.199 But a lot of people are waiting later for the 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.760 flu vaccine. That's more available host for that virus to 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.200 replicate in, and the effectiveness in the community would be 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:43.480 lower because the flu has already spread earlier in the season. 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:46.400 Another thing to consider is that vaccines have to be 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:50.679 produced ahead of time for distribution, So they're forecasting. They're saying, 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.120 based on what we see in the beginning of the year, 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:55.839 these are the flu strains that we think we need 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:59.280 to vaccinate against. Now things change and the flu strains 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.480 that become most rampant aren't in that vaccine, then the 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:06.640 effectiveness is lower. So by getting vaccinated earlier, you can 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:10.640 influence the overall effectiveness of the flu vaccine. You have power. 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:14.280 That is such a great comparison because it really puts 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:18.360 into perspective how well this vaccine can work if we 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:20.480 all kind of buy into it. But what we know 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:24.160 is that not everyone's gonna take the vaccine right. There 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:26.280 are a lot of people who are vaccine hesitant. We 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:30.319 talked about vaccine hesitancy in the Protect Your Neck episode 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.640 and the reasons why people are vaccine hesitant, but the 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:36.320 reasons for why people don't want to take the COVID 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:38.760 vaccine they're different pre COVID. 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:41.960 You know, generally people's concerns fell into four categories when 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:45.440 we're talking about hesitancy. So one would be ingredients. People 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.280 were really concerned about ingredients that are in vaccines. Two 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:50.600 would be things related to the schedule, and this is 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:53.720 related to children vaccines. People are just concerned about the 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.000 number of vaccines and doses that children were getting. The 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:58.719 third thing that we found is sort of I think 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:03.520 the elephant in the room misperception that vaccines can cause 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:06.839 serious adverse events such as autism, even though this has 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:10.360 been refuted soundly over and over and over again that 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.960 there is no causal link at all between exposure to 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.920 a vaccine and autism. And the fourth is really risk perception. Right, 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:21.440 so people are like, we've never seen polio before, why 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:23.119 do I need to get a polio vaccine? 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:25.480 That is a really good point. People are like, we've 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.720 never seen polio before, why do I need to get 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:30.360 a polio vaccine? And I think we saw this same 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:33.880 type of mentality with I don't know anybody who has coronavirus, 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:36.200 why do I need to wear a mask? Exactly now 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:40.440 in our post COVID world, we're seeing that same vaccine hesitancy, 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:45.440 but for different reasons. One of those is scientific mistrust. 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.520 That is such a good point, and Zakiah and I 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:52.160 wrote an article in Scientific American about this topic, about 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.160 why folks are vaccine hesitanting. We'll put a link in 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.040 the show description and in our show notes. Go check 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:00.520 out that article. It's called why so many ers are 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:02.600 skeptical of the coronavirus vaccine? 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:04.720 And some of the main points that we hit in 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:09.360 that editorial. Doctor LeMay also mentions that she and her 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:13.040 other public health communicators that they're considering those same things. 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:16.840 The first of these is distrust in information. 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:19.520 I don't know who came up with this name Operation 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:23.560 Warp Speed, but it does not convey a sense of 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:28.280 like systematic scientific thoroughness with regards to the process. That 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:32.760 science has taken a backseat. You could see when administration 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.760 officials would come up and say something, and then doctor 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:38.600 Fauci would come right after and say, well, actually that's 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.440 not exactly right. So I think it is sowed. I 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:42.920 would say this distrust. 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:43.440 Yeah. 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:45.760 I mean, for real, let's call a spade a spade. 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:49.000 The administration really fumbled the ball. 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:52.360 If I think about what we were expecting based on 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:56.160 our visit to NIH in February, and what we got 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:58.360 is like how it started and how it ended up. 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.720 That's not right, right, that's not right exactly. 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.680 Like if you go back and listen to that episode 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:08.960 Don't Pass the Corona, we sound very relaxed when we're 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:10.080 talking about coronavirus. 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:12.400 We're like, wash your hands, wash your hands, cover your 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:14.000 mouth when you cough with your elbow. 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:17.600 We sound very relaxed, like, oh, you know, it'll be fine, 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.920 everything will be fine. And if we had known what 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.280 was going on behind the scenes, I'm like, panic, panic, panic. 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.280 Well, I think that's the thing, right, and that's what 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.400 doctor Lamay is saying when she says the science took 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:31.360 a backseat because we were there with the scientists who 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.440 were working on that ninety four point five percent efficacy 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:39.040 vaccine in the same building, right, And when we saw that, 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:43.120 I said, oh, yes, I have full confidence. Right absolutely, 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:45.480 the lab coats on the ground knew what was going on. 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:48.680 They knew what needed to happen. They had the right information. 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.000 And they were were king honey. We were there late. 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:53.960 I was like, it is dinner time. These people are like, okay, 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:56.840 let's do one more. I'm like, well more what I'm hungry? 0:16:57.040 --> 0:16:59.600 I said, If I see another mini prep, I don't know. 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:01.560 It's time for me to retire to the boudoir. 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:04.560 And so I think seeing that gave us this sense 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:08.440 of comfort, and because we knew that potential, it felt 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:12.080 even worse to see it all just crumble in execution. 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:14.800 And I think that's part of why people still have 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:18.120 some of this hesitancy, because even if they trust the science, 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:20.240 they don't trust it as administered in the right way 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:23.000 or that is not politicized or being held hostage for 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:26.680 political motivations, especially in an election year. 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:29.560 And we were looking at tracking of how hesitancy has 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.720 changed related to COVID from March until about now, and 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.760 what we have found is that confidence or trust in 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.399 the vaccine development process have dropped by an average of 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:42.919 about fifteen percent. There is this perceived political influence, this 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:45.800 fact that it's an expedited timeline, even though, as we 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:48.400 try to communicate as clearly as we can, even though 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:51.920 it's expedited, it's still the exact same steps that any 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:55.320 sort of product would go through with regards to vaccine development. 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.160 So I think all of these factors together have caused 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:00.360 this huge change and hasency. 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:02.280 That is such a good point. 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.520 And I think another reason why folks are feeling unsure 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:09.800 about the COVID vaccine is because it's a two dose vaccine, 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:12.400 so that means that you would be getting two different 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:16.000 injections and that's something that most people are. 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:16.879 Not used to. 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:21.679 And this is changing very quickly. When we wrote that article, 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:25.000 it was around fifty percent. Now we're talking two thirds 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:28.520 of people, so what sixty seven percent? We need a 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:31.400 harder reset. We got to turn some things around very quickly. 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:37.280 This widespread hesitancy around the COVID vaccine has really serious implications. 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:41.520 For trying to achieve community protection or herd immunity. 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:43.720 We know that as much as two thirds of the 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:45.960 population is already saying they're not going to get a 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:49.679 vaccine for the foreseeable future at least. What does that 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:52.080 mean for our ability to control the pandemic and to 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:55.160 control these things that people are also raising concerns about. 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:57.120 So the longer it takes us to get a vaccine 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:59.159 to enough people, the longer we're going to need to 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.920 keep these other restrict like masks, like controlling social gathering 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:06.120 things like that, which are similar interventions and areas where 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:07.840 people are raising concerns as well. 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:09.880 We're going to take a quick break and when we 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:12.200 get back, we're going to talk all about what we've 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:15.119 learned so far and what the new game plan should be. 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:37.360 So we're back and we're talking vaccine hesitancy and what 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:40.760 the new strategies should be. So right before the break, 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:43.720 we were talking about the increase or the rise in 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:46.440 vaccine hesitancy over the past couple of months. 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:51.639 According to doctor LeMay and Molly, effective communication is all 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:53.960 about transparency and empathy. 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:58.160 COVID is new. However, what's amazing and awesome about science 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:00.560 is that we're learning about it every day, which means 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:05.000 we should communicate recommendations as they change. Perfect example that 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:07.840 we had to deal with early on was that first 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:10.640 the CDC did not recommend the wearing of masks. Right 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:13.000 a few months later, the CDC was like, you know, 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:15.240 it's really important for us to wear masks. And one 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:17.000 thing that we tried to do very much with our 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:20.520 communication that we were advising the mayor's office was that 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:23.800 we need to talk about that if we have new recommendations. 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:26.880 That is how science should be working. So being very 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:29.720 upfront and saying this is what I know today, right, 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:31.879 this is what the science has told me today with 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:35.520 regards to protective measures, and really being transparent and saying 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:39.000