WEBVTT - Interview: Absolute, with Nick Berardini, Part 2 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:09.400 From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.800 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:16.840 learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:18.600 production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:33.400 Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:34.520 my name is Noah. 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:35.840 They call me Ben. 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:38.720 We're joined as always with our super producer Dylan the 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:42.040 Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you are you. 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:42.720 You are here. 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:45.879 That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:50.480 This is the second part of a two part interview 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:56.800 with the creator of Absolute, the journalist, documentarian, filmmaker, author, 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:02.680 podcaster Nick Beredini. Way through the show in media rests, 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:04.959 so why don't we just pick up where we left off. 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:05.759 Let's do it. 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:13.840 I know we've kind of hit this already, Nick, but 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.080 I want to drill down more into those pig tests. 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.000 One of the episodes is that you've made on your 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:24.080 show is called Defective Pigs, and this episode goes into 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:28.160 depth of what it was actually being done. And well, 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:30.080 you tell us the details, but I think they were 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:36.320 doing tests on pigs where an elongated taser event was occurring, 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:38.720 that they were testing, right, and what happened there? 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:43.839 The thing that really almost takes the whole company down, 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:49.559 is this sort of accidental discovery. What happens is there's 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.880 a lot of controversy by the mid two thousands around 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:57.120 tasers because they are becoming incredibly popular with cops, and 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:00.680 as such, you start to see a lot of people 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:03.960 being killed. So now we're talking about The New York 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:08.160 Times is doing big investigations. You're talking about CBS News, 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:11.760 the Arizona Republic. Robert Anglan is a terrific, terrific reporter 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:15.120 from the Arizona Republic, a great, great guy who just 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.520 like kicked their ass, not on purpose, not trying to be, 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.840 you know, somebody who was adversarial, but doing kind of 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:23.560 what I was doing, which was taking these claims at 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:25.320 face value and checking them out and being like, I 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:28.080 don't think that adds up, bro, and then them fighting 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:30.760 him over the fact that right what they're saying is 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:33.720 in true. You have all of this scrutiny that didn't 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:36.839 exist in the early days. In fact, this weapon got 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:39.680 a lot of positive media attention in the beginning because 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:42.160 it was a great idea, the idea that you could 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:45.400 have an electric weapon that would prevent police shootings. Everybody 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.120 can get on board with them. But of course, as 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:51.360 people start dropping dead and there are stories popping up 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:55.080 about six year olds being tasered and grandma's being tasered, 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:59.520 and like, all these things start to make really controversial news, 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:04.200 the company realizes they're going to basically be in a 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:08.720 public opinion war, right, and they're a big target because 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.320 at the same time as these debts and injuries are 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:14.200 starting to happen, the stock had gone from like trading 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:18.040 at like three dollars a share to like being like 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:21.000 I said, I think they went from a shareholder value 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:24.799 you know, maybe of like eight eight point four million 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:26.839 I think when they went public in two thousand and one, 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:29.960 to like one point nine billion by April of two 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:33.560 thousand and four. This is like a unicorn unicorn, right, 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.960 this is pretty Facebook and all these terms we've become 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:39.480 familiar with, you know, with all these tech companies. Right, 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:43.080 this was after the dot com crash. You have a 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:46.360 tech company essentially a weapons manufacturer that's kind of a 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:51.040 tech company, right, just smoking the NaSTA, I mean, doing incredible, 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:54.880 incredible you know numbers in terms of its shareholder value. 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:57.720 And Rick Smith is by the way, at this point 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:03.800 becoming almost like a messiotic figure for stockbrokers, you know. 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:07.720 And he's got he's got the uh you've established him 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:11.560 not just as a uh, not just as a guy 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.680 born into very good means with a lot of opportunities, 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:18.440 but now a guy who might be drinking his own 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:19.320 pool aider. 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:21.800 To one thousand per right, Oh, this is everything he 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:24.560 ever dreamed of, was to be basically up like he 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:26.960 wanted to be, like Steve Jobs. I mean, that's really 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.680 what he wanted to be like. And so he's got 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:32.960 a cult of personality within law enforcement because the literal 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:37.080 corporate you know mission statement was protect truth, protect life. 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.680 So all these cops are you know, like hailing him 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:42.960 as this great, you know, hero of policing because he's 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:46.000 invented this weapon that can save lives by you know, 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.000 not having to shoot people or beat people with batons anymore. Right, 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:54.560 But then you also have this incredible retail investor rush 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:57.680 of glorification of him, where these day traders and these 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:01.040 average people are able to beat the big banks, you know, 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:03.719 on a stock that the big banks think is kind 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.320 of bolt and right, the day traders and the retail 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:09.800 investors and the mom and pops doing their own trading 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.640 are hailing because of the sales numbers or quarter are 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.839 just bananas at this time. But what happens, and getting 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:20.800 back to the pig tests, you know, is Rick now 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.839 has everything at stake because he in two thousand and four, 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:25.960 his family in two thousand and four makes one hundred 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:30.680 million dollars in stock sales alone. Right their whole fortunes 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:34.280 are being made, and the rocket ride up the Nastac 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.320 in that year. At the same time, people start dying 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:39.760 and the controversy starts to really swell about is this 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:43.640 weapon really what they said it was, And they start 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:48.240 having to do these other studies to basically try to 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.080 confirm and backup sort of what they had said. And 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:54.400 at the same time, other researchers are getting interested because 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:57.080 it's a big story. It's a controversial story. So the 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:59.360 guys like Andrew Dennis who I mentioned, are sitting in 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:01.560 a daser training as a cop and going like, I'm 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.760 gonna check that out myself. What they discover in in 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.480 early two thousand and five, I believe it was sometime 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:09.640 in early two thousand and five, they start doing this 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:11.479 study with the Cleveland Clinic, which is one of the 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:17.600 most reputable, you know, hospitals in the entire country, and 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:21.920 they these this electrophysiologist, physiologist named Patrick chose one of 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:24.839 the best electrophysiologists in the country. They hire him to 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:29.080 prove that cocaine or stimulant drugs don't make someone more 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:33.240 susceptible to heart trouble when they're tasered. And the study 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.280 that he does kind of proves that. But this pig 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:39.200 study is the first to use an ultrasound or an 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:43.680 echo cardiogram to measure a heart rhythm because previously they 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:45.320 were doing a lot of studies and if you use 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.839 an EKG on a pig, for example, during an animal study, 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:52.240 and you shoot it with a taser, right, the thekt's 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:55.200 gonna go ap because the electric current is interfering with 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:58.120 the reading. Then echo cardiogram is an image of the 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:03.880 horror right, and the election cardiogram. They discover this current 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:09.080 is overriding the pig's heartbeats in these early stages. Sometimes 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:12.080 they bounce back to normal when the shock ends. Sometimes 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:14.080 they speed up to rapid rates that can lead to 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:18.720 what's called ventricular fibrillation, which is essentially what is described 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:21.120 as a bag of squiggly worms. In your heart. No 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:24.320 real rhythm quickly leads to death. When you see people 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:27.000 shoveling snow. You hear about people shoveling snow and they 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:29.320 drop dead in the snow, they have a heart attack. 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:33.040 A lot of times that's ventricular fibrillation. It's a messed 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:37.280 up current, an uncontrollable current inside the heart rhythm. 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:37.560 Right. 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:40.920 Well, this is a huge deal because they never tested 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:44.160 for what was called cardiac capture, that the current could 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.800 actually override somebody's heart. They were just testing to see 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:51.600 in the beginning, would the electric current send a dog 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:55.600 or a pig heart immediately into ventricular fibrillation, that squiggly 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:59.280 worm current. Well, because they never tested for capture, and 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:02.040 now they're finding capture, they're starting to cover their ass, 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:06.040 thinking like, how do we show that that actually isn't 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:09.680 what had happened in this test done by this incredibly 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:14.320 reputal electrophysiologists they'd hired to do the study. And that 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:17.480 leads to all of this internal testing that a lot 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:20.400 of it wasn't published, trying to sort of disprove what 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:24.440 Patrick Chu ended up proving, and that study is eventually 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:28.840 going to become the real impetus for these legal threats 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:32.960 because now lawyers can say they told you for years 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.600 this weapon could not affect the heart, and they have 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:39.480 known that it can by their own study that they 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.400 have paid for since two thousand and five, and they 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:47.120 have not warned cops anywhere. So those pig tests are 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:50.320 basically a way to try to disprove it, and all 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:54.520 they keep doing is just proving repeatedly what that original 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:56.760 one that they did sort of showed, which is a 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:59.800 shock in close enough to the heart, and especially in 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:02.920 a long gated one, especially one for longer than five seconds, 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:08.480 can override a person's heartbeat. And the longer that shock went, 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:11.199 the more likely it was to happen. Not that it's 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.079 likely to happen in the beginning, to be very clear, 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:17.800 It's not like a bunch of people died from tasers 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:19.920 because they got shot in the chest, but the risk 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:24.160 was obviously significant given that the weapons at that point 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:26.920 were being used something like a thousand times a day 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:28.040 by American cops. 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:32.280 Yeah, we also see at this point, we see a 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:36.280 great appetite on behalf of Taser International, who has not 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:42.360 yet changed their name to find I'll say it undiplomatically 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:49.360 to cherry pick other ideas or frankly pitches not real 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:51.680 science that will suit their narrative. 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:53.839 There's a conversation we. 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:57.080 Had back in twenty twenty one on a show called 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:00.319 Behind the Bastards about the concept of excit I did 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:05.480 delirium and we know big Taser loved this idea. Could 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:10.800 you tell us a little bit about excited delirium? Why 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:14.040 Taser International was so on board with championing this. 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.280 You have heard of excited delirium because of Taser International. 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:24.319 This was a syndrome that was very, very you know, 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:27.680 obscure comes comes all the way back. They would tie 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:30.240 it all the way back to the eighteen hundreds in 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:32.520 a thing called Bell's mania, which was basically like a 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:35.920 psychosis in mental institutions. Going back to the eighteen hundreds. 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:39.439 A forensic pathologist named Cyril Wett, who's a very controversial 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:45.760 figure in forensic pathology, started using the phrase excited delirium 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:48.960 or cocaine psychosis in the nineteen eighties to try to 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:55.200 explain people who were dying in Miami in bizarre circumstances 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.120 that was then later debunked that it wasn't related to 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:01.280 any sort of drug intoxication. I think, in fact, this 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:03.160 is I'm speculating a little bit this because I forget 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:05.000 it all now. But like, I think some of the 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:08.440 deaths of these women that they were targeting were basically 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:12.520 like they were using sort of like their sexuality against them, 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:14.760 and that they were actually killed by a serial killer 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:18.040 I believe was one of the findings. If you guys, 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:19.840 am I right about that? You guys might know that you. 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:24.520 Are on the stuff. Yeah, you are correct, Yeah, are correct. Nick. 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.560 When I was talking with Robert, he was able to 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:31.000 confirm that on the on that show, it's it's kind 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:32.560 of bullsh though right excited. 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:36.640 It's a bullsh syndrome that because people could not explain 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:42.040 some pathology that led some people with mental illness to die. 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:47.480 The pathology always required restraint. People weren't just dropping dead. Well, 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.360 what could happen is somebody who was really worked up, 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:52.560 whether that was because of drugs or some sort of 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:56.680 mental break, would be restrained, and the restraint itself was 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:00.640 typically a trigger for how someone might die because there 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:05.480 was no obvious forensic pathway to show it was a asphyxiation, right, 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:07.960 They just they didn't they couldn't. 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:08.400 Breathe or whatever. 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.559 There was no obvious, clear cut point to the liver 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:14.080 and show the damage to deliver and say that's why 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:18.120 it happened. Excited delierum kind of became this thing that 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:21.640 was bandied about, like maybe there's some sort of right 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:24.880 like syndrome that's taking place in people who are not 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:30.199 within their own sound minded body. Taser took that in 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:34.760 and it started in the very first training version. I 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:36.640 believe I saw this, and I may be wrong. It 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:38.600 might have come in earlier, but I really remember it 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:41.400 starting to be pushed into trained versions around November of 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:45.400 two thousand and four. This is a super controversial period 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.199 because again the stock is skyrocketing, and this is when 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:51.360 they're also for the first time, really being pounded by 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:55.720 you know, big national media. The SEC is floating around 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:58.920 thinking about an investigation. Yearson attorney generals about to start 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:02.679 an investigation. So they are looking to show cops who 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:06.959 are seeing these headlines and thinking about, how's the taser 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:10.080 not killing these people? Why can we trust you when 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:13.360 you say that the taser cannot kill? They point to 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:18.559 excited delirium, which for American police is the perfect perfect 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:22.920 excuse because we have such a culture victim blaming in 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:27.560 American policing that it basically allows the cops to say, 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:29.920 it wasn't the taser. It wasn't my actions of the 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:32.959 tasering someone for a minute in fifteen seconds who was 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:36.840 high on methamphetamine that caused this person to die. It 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.959 was them being high on methamphetamine, dying of excited delirium 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:46.160 and just crashing out. And that they they put so 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:52.520 much energy into pushing excited delirium and all these conditions 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:55.560 that sort of get bucketed with excited delirium as the 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:59.640 reason for why people were dying in custody, and that 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:05.360 coflected blame, especially with the customer with American police, from 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:08.840 the weapon itself, because that's really who they were answering to. 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:12.960 The SEC investigation that happened into Taser International was whether 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:15.240 or not they lied about the safety of the Taser. Well, 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:17.320 to prove that they lied about the safety of the tasers, 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:20.440 you would need to do some medical research to dispute 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.760 their claims, which the SEC is a financial regulatory body. 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:27.000 The we're gonna do right. The Arizona Attorney General's Office 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:30.880 dropped their investigation because Taser agreed to essentially stop calling 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:33.560 tasers none wethough they would refer to them as less lethal, 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:36.320 and that was fine for the Arizona AG. The investigation 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.280 gets dropped, right, it's cops who matter. They are the 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.840 only ones who can basically kill this business if there 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.720 is some skepticism, and for a period there was. Two 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:48.960 thousand and five was a brutal year for Taser International 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:51.880 because they were under sec investigation and a lot of 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.840 departments canceled orders saying we can't do business with a 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:58.080 company who might get hammered by the Feds. We have 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:01.000 to pause this until this gets sorted out, and excited 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:05.320 de leering became a part of that push to show no, no, no, no, 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:08.720 it's not the Taser, it's all these other things and like, 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.480 you know, that guy was just a drug addict, piece 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:15.520 of who dropped dead, and like they're blaming the Taser 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:19.600 now because that's what these crybabies do. Mike Brave said 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.160 something one of the most despicable things I've ever read 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:26.280 in Princeton, quite frankly, where he said to mother Jones, 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.360 I think who has did a big investigation at the 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.840 time about excited tiary And he said, you know, do 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:36.760 we blame the druggies, the druggie or the druggies mom 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:40.800 who cries when someone dies. No, we blame the cop 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:42.840 and we blame the taser because that's what's there the 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:45.680 time of death. And it was so prevalent a part 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:49.440 of their rhetoric that these were people out to get you, 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:51.600 the officer in us, the company trying to provide you 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:56.080 with service, and you know what, like them, it's their 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.720 own fault. And that worked. That worked incredibly well. It 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:03.920 worked on Matt Masters. And that is what I feel 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:07.360 is so devastating is that if it had actually been 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:10.640 taken seriously and honestly right, there could have been a 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:13.720 sort of reforming of the way the weapon was treated 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.200 and policies were made. There could have been an honest 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:19.160 discussion about what the real risk was of the device, 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:21.920 without without pulling them off the street, without getting cups 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:25.560 to use them. But the difference is if police officers 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:27.240 then started to put in their minds there was a 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:29.680 small risk that someone could be killed or armed from 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.160 this weapon, they would no longer be tasering six year 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:34.000 olds and grandmothers and people who didn't want to sign 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:37.200 speeding tickets. And why if I am the Chicago PD, 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:40.960 find the NYPD, find these huge departments where they were 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.640 pushing to arm every officer with a taser. Why would 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.640 I give every officer a taser when they already have 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:48.560 a gun, they already have pepper spread, they already have 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:51.200 the baton, you know, whatever it may be. And if 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:52.600 they're only going to be able to allow to use 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:55.200 a taser when there's a real fight that's happening, why 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.160 would I spend millions of dollars for the department to 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.080 give everyone one? Just give them to you know, sergeants, 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:03.680 give them the supervisory and it's give then the swat whatever. 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:07.080 And that would kill the whole business model, because the 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.199 business model was this wasn't some niche weapon. The business 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.359 model was this was a panacea. This was a magical 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:14.679 bullet that could be used for anything. 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:18.119 Let's pause here, we'll have a word from our sponsors, 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:27.119 and then we'll dive deeper into the story of tasers, 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:29.200 and we've returned. 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:33.520 It really sucks because, like I said at the top 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:35.680 of this, it seems like a great idea to have 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:39.959 this thing at the ready as a non lethal force 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:44.879 that can be deployed. But you know, it just it. 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:48.560 It isn't used in the way that it's ever I've seen. 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:51.280 I've never seen a video of a taser being deployed 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:53.080 by a police officer that is used in the way 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:55.760 that is used in the tests. And if you look 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:58.159 at those tests, every single one, including the one with 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:01.359 Hans Morrero, which was like the big one, there is 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:04.200 a mat laid on the ground so that a human 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:06.720 being when they fall down in the way a human 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:10.160 being falls down when they're tased, it doesn't cause damage 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:12.840 right when you fall down that way. But then in 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:15.560 almost every video you see of a police officer using 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:18.920 a taser, there is either asphalt or concrete or some 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:22.480 hard surface that's there. And people don't talk about the 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:26.200 traumatic brain injuries that occur when a taser is deployed 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:30.800 because a human being falls face down onto concrete or asphalt. 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:33.680 It just stinks because if it was used in those 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:37.159 little bursts, Like I'm not trying to say tasers are 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:39.320 safe in that way, but if it was used in 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:42.320 those little bursts to stop someone in the moment, it 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:47.480 seems like it would be a fairly safe weapon, fairly 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:50.199 safe weapon for most instances. 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.879 But it's just it's just not and it seems like 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:57.560 it's just become a device for intimidation. 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:03.160 Also, yeah, yeah, also a huge profit center, but as 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:08.040 we alluded to, not the sole income stream for Taser 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:12.040 International at this point, and that's something we definitely have 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:16.720 to address. Like the thing that Matt is bringing up 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:20.760 here is mission critical, right. It's kind of like how 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:28.840 during prohibition, companies would sell grape juice concentrate and they 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:31.879 would have an awarding label on the package that said, 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:35.439 don't do the following things because this will turn that 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:41.439 grape juice into an alcoholic beverage. And everyone was like, oh, gotcha, buddy. 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:46.080 So we see again the conflict of Like, one thing 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:49.679 I love about absolute in general is the way that 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:54.280 you describe it as a story about unchecked power, and 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:59.239 it goes so much deeper than the mechanics or the 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:06.000 science of taser technology. I see it as a battle 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:10.879 between stories with lives on the line, right, narratives, truth 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:16.439 versus fiction, pr versus reality. And we see also and 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:18.400 this is a personal question, now I want to put 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:20.159 you too much on the spot here, Nick, but we 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:23.400 see also that big taser I'm. 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:25.880 Calling them, that can be a little bit. 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:30.760 A little bit defensive when people find things that don't 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:35.840 match their stories. So can you tell us a little 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:39.919 about legal actions or reprisals that people feel they have encountered. 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:44.400 And on the personal note, dude, have you at any 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:48.359 point felt like someone was gunning for you as a 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:50.520 result of this, because you've been at this for more 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:51.680 than a decade and a half. 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:59.080 Personally, I've never felt a lot of threat or danger 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:02.920 in any way from the usual. You know, they were 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:08.080 very serious when my film came out about review bombing 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:11.800 the documentary on Amazon and IMDb, at these iTunes and 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:16.960 these things, attacking me personally in the press, doing that 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:22.680 kind of stuff you expect, right, They sort of that backfires, 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:26.560 right because that just draws more attention. What I'm dealing 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:29.600 with now is a completely different company than I was 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:33.080 dealing with ten years ago. And that's because they are 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:36.880 a tech conglomerate. I mean, I've told people, and I 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.000 firmly believe this to be true, that this is the 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:43.359 most important and powerful company at least that's publicly traded, 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:46.960 let's say that you don't actually know about. And the 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:50.040 reason for that is because they have more from this 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:55.600 niche taser manufacturer into the dominant provider of all law 0:21:55.640 --> 0:22:00.000 enforcement technology, and that's expanding into different public safety sectors 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:04.960 like healthcare, public schools, even rights. That's how far this 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:10.000 is getting. They were, you know, billion dollar ish company 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:13.520 when I when I was doing my film ten years ago. 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:16.919 They are a fifty billion dollar company now. And that 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:21.720 is because of the camera systems, the drones, the artificial intelligence, 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:25.240 all these other things that they used the taser's success for, 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:29.680 and the relationships they had in policing already because of 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:34.520 the taser. They took those relationships and leveraged them into 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:37.520 all these other tech spaces. So to answer that question, 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:41.680 they are now much much too big to make the 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:45.960 mistake of picking on me personally in some way, because 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:49.680 they would know that would just invite more eyeballs onto 0:22:50.280 --> 0:22:53.160 what they are actually up to. And Rick Smith himself, 0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:56.720 while still deeply involved in the company, right is not 0:22:56.960 --> 0:23:00.879 actually calling the shots in the same way he would 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:03.440 have been ten years ago because this is a much 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:07.000 more buttoned up place. That doesn't mean you don't see 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:09.800 read Reuter's been doing an amazing job, you know, like 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:12.560 writing stories about the culture at Axon and the kind 0:23:12.560 --> 0:23:15.560 of weird that they still do but this is a 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:18.600 place that wants to be seen much more in the 0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:21.880 line of Apple than it would you know, ten years ago, 0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:25.520 when it was still just kind of a niche weapons manufacturer. Now, 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:29.800 does that mean that they don't do some things that 0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:35.360 I would would still find intimidating. Sure, you know, they 0:23:35.440 --> 0:23:38.400 especially did them. I felt like we premiered a Tribeca 0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:41.119