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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noah.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben.

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Speaker 4: We're joined as always with our super producer Dylan the

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Speaker 4: Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 3: You are here.

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Speaker 4: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 4: This is the second part of a two part interview

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Speaker 4: with the creator of Absolute, the journalist, documentarian, filmmaker, author,

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Speaker 4: podcaster Nick Beredini. Way through the show in media rests,

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Speaker 4: so why don't we just pick up where we left off.

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Speaker 5: Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: I know we've kind of hit this already, Nick, but

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Speaker 2: I want to drill down more into those pig tests.

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Speaker 2: One of the episodes is that you've made on your

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Speaker 2: show is called Defective Pigs, and this episode goes into

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Speaker 2: depth of what it was actually being done. And well,

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Speaker 2: you tell us the details, but I think they were

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Speaker 2: doing tests on pigs where an elongated taser event was occurring,

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Speaker 2: that they were testing, right, and what happened there?

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Speaker 6: The thing that really almost takes the whole company down,

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Speaker 6: is this sort of accidental discovery. What happens is there's

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Speaker 6: a lot of controversy by the mid two thousands around

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Speaker 6: tasers because they are becoming incredibly popular with cops, and

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Speaker 6: as such, you start to see a lot of people

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Speaker 6: being killed. So now we're talking about The New York

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Speaker 6: Times is doing big investigations. You're talking about CBS News,

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Speaker 6: the Arizona Republic. Robert Anglan is a terrific, terrific reporter

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Speaker 6: from the Arizona Republic, a great, great guy who just

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Speaker 6: like kicked their ass, not on purpose, not trying to be,

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Speaker 6: you know, somebody who was adversarial, but doing kind of

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Speaker 6: what I was doing, which was taking these claims at

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Speaker 6: face value and checking them out and being like, I

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Speaker 6: don't think that adds up, bro, and then them fighting

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Speaker 6: him over the fact that right what they're saying is

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Speaker 6: in true. You have all of this scrutiny that didn't

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Speaker 6: exist in the early days. In fact, this weapon got

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Speaker 6: a lot of positive media attention in the beginning because

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Speaker 6: it was a great idea, the idea that you could

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Speaker 6: have an electric weapon that would prevent police shootings. Everybody

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Speaker 6: can get on board with them. But of course, as

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Speaker 6: people start dropping dead and there are stories popping up

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Speaker 6: about six year olds being tasered and grandma's being tasered,

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Speaker 6: and like, all these things start to make really controversial news,

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Speaker 6: the company realizes they're going to basically be in a

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Speaker 6: public opinion war, right, and they're a big target because

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Speaker 6: at the same time as these debts and injuries are

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Speaker 6: starting to happen, the stock had gone from like trading

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Speaker 6: at like three dollars a share to like being like

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Speaker 6: I said, I think they went from a shareholder value

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Speaker 6: you know, maybe of like eight eight point four million

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Speaker 6: I think when they went public in two thousand and one,

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Speaker 6: to like one point nine billion by April of two

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Speaker 6: thousand and four. This is like a unicorn unicorn, right,

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Speaker 6: this is pretty Facebook and all these terms we've become

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Speaker 6: familiar with, you know, with all these tech companies. Right,

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Speaker 6: this was after the dot com crash. You have a

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Speaker 6: tech company essentially a weapons manufacturer that's kind of a

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Speaker 6: tech company, right, just smoking the NaSTA, I mean, doing incredible,

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Speaker 6: incredible you know numbers in terms of its shareholder value.

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Speaker 4: And Rick Smith is by the way, at this point

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Speaker 4: becoming almost like a messiotic figure for stockbrokers, you know.

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Speaker 4: And he's got he's got the uh you've established him

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Speaker 4: not just as a uh, not just as a guy

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Speaker 4: born into very good means with a lot of opportunities,

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Speaker 4: but now a guy who might be drinking his own

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Speaker 4: pool aider.

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Speaker 6: To one thousand per right, Oh, this is everything he

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Speaker 6: ever dreamed of, was to be basically up like he

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Speaker 6: wanted to be, like Steve Jobs. I mean, that's really

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Speaker 6: what he wanted to be like. And so he's got

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Speaker 6: a cult of personality within law enforcement because the literal

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Speaker 6: corporate you know mission statement was protect truth, protect life.

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Speaker 6: So all these cops are you know, like hailing him

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Speaker 6: as this great, you know, hero of policing because he's

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Speaker 6: invented this weapon that can save lives by you know,

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Speaker 6: not having to shoot people or beat people with batons anymore. Right,

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Speaker 6: But then you also have this incredible retail investor rush

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Speaker 6: of glorification of him, where these day traders and these

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Speaker 6: average people are able to beat the big banks, you know,

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Speaker 6: on a stock that the big banks think is kind

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Speaker 6: of bolt and right, the day traders and the retail

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Speaker 6: investors and the mom and pops doing their own trading

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Speaker 6: are hailing because of the sales numbers or quarter are

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Speaker 6: just bananas at this time. But what happens, and getting

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Speaker 6: back to the pig tests, you know, is Rick now

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Speaker 6: has everything at stake because he in two thousand and four,

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Speaker 6: his family in two thousand and four makes one hundred

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Speaker 6: million dollars in stock sales alone. Right their whole fortunes

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Speaker 6: are being made, and the rocket ride up the Nastac

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Speaker 6: in that year. At the same time, people start dying

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Speaker 6: and the controversy starts to really swell about is this

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Speaker 6: weapon really what they said it was, And they start

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Speaker 6: having to do these other studies to basically try to

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Speaker 6: confirm and backup sort of what they had said. And

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Speaker 6: at the same time, other researchers are getting interested because

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Speaker 6: it's a big story. It's a controversial story. So the

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Speaker 6: guys like Andrew Dennis who I mentioned, are sitting in

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Speaker 6: a daser training as a cop and going like, I'm

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Speaker 6: gonna check that out myself. What they discover in in

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Speaker 6: early two thousand and five, I believe it was sometime

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Speaker 6: in early two thousand and five, they start doing this

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Speaker 6: study with the Cleveland Clinic, which is one of the

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Speaker 6: most reputable, you know, hospitals in the entire country, and

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Speaker 6: they these this electrophysiologist, physiologist named Patrick chose one of

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Speaker 6: the best electrophysiologists in the country. They hire him to

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Speaker 6: prove that cocaine or stimulant drugs don't make someone more

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Speaker 6: susceptible to heart trouble when they're tasered. And the study

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Speaker 6: that he does kind of proves that. But this pig

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Speaker 6: study is the first to use an ultrasound or an

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Speaker 6: echo cardiogram to measure a heart rhythm because previously they

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Speaker 6: were doing a lot of studies and if you use

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Speaker 6: an EKG on a pig, for example, during an animal study,

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Speaker 6: and you shoot it with a taser, right, the thekt's

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Speaker 6: gonna go ap because the electric current is interfering with

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Speaker 6: the reading. Then echo cardiogram is an image of the

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Speaker 6: horror right, and the election cardiogram. They discover this current

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Speaker 6: is overriding the pig's heartbeats in these early stages. Sometimes

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Speaker 6: they bounce back to normal when the shock ends. Sometimes

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Speaker 6: they speed up to rapid rates that can lead to

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Speaker 6: what's called ventricular fibrillation, which is essentially what is described

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Speaker 6: as a bag of squiggly worms. In your heart. No

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Speaker 6: real rhythm quickly leads to death. When you see people

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Speaker 6: shoveling snow. You hear about people shoveling snow and they

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Speaker 6: drop dead in the snow, they have a heart attack.

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Speaker 6: A lot of times that's ventricular fibrillation. It's a messed

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Speaker 6: up current, an uncontrollable current inside the heart rhythm.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 6: Well, this is a huge deal because they never tested

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Speaker 6: for what was called cardiac capture, that the current could

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Speaker 6: actually override somebody's heart. They were just testing to see

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Speaker 6: in the beginning, would the electric current send a dog

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Speaker 6: or a pig heart immediately into ventricular fibrillation, that squiggly

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Speaker 6: worm current. Well, because they never tested for capture, and

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Speaker 6: now they're finding capture, they're starting to cover their ass,

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Speaker 6: thinking like, how do we show that that actually isn't

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Speaker 6: what had happened in this test done by this incredibly

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Speaker 6: reputal electrophysiologists they'd hired to do the study. And that

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Speaker 6: leads to all of this internal testing that a lot

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Speaker 6: of it wasn't published, trying to sort of disprove what

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Speaker 6: Patrick Chu ended up proving, and that study is eventually

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Speaker 6: going to become the real impetus for these legal threats

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Speaker 6: because now lawyers can say they told you for years

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Speaker 6: this weapon could not affect the heart, and they have

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Speaker 6: known that it can by their own study that they

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Speaker 6: have paid for since two thousand and five, and they

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Speaker 6: have not warned cops anywhere. So those pig tests are

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Speaker 6: basically a way to try to disprove it, and all

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Speaker 6: they keep doing is just proving repeatedly what that original

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Speaker 6: one that they did sort of showed, which is a

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Speaker 6: shock in close enough to the heart, and especially in

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Speaker 6: a long gated one, especially one for longer than five seconds,

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Speaker 6: can override a person's heartbeat. And the longer that shock went,

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Speaker 6: the more likely it was to happen. Not that it's

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Speaker 6: likely to happen in the beginning, to be very clear,

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Speaker 6: It's not like a bunch of people died from tasers

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Speaker 6: because they got shot in the chest, but the risk

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Speaker 6: was obviously significant given that the weapons at that point

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Speaker 6: were being used something like a thousand times a day

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Speaker 6: by American cops.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we also see at this point, we see a

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Speaker 4: great appetite on behalf of Taser International, who has not

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Speaker 4: yet changed their name to find I'll say it undiplomatically

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Speaker 4: to cherry pick other ideas or frankly pitches not real

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Speaker 4: science that will suit their narrative.

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Speaker 3: There's a conversation we.

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Speaker 4: Had back in twenty twenty one on a show called

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Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards about the concept of excit I did

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Speaker 4: delirium and we know big Taser loved this idea. Could

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Speaker 4: you tell us a little bit about excited delirium? Why

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Speaker 4: Taser International was so on board with championing this.

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Speaker 6: You have heard of excited delirium because of Taser International.

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Speaker 6: This was a syndrome that was very, very you know,

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Speaker 6: obscure comes comes all the way back. They would tie

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Speaker 6: it all the way back to the eighteen hundreds in

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Speaker 6: a thing called Bell's mania, which was basically like a

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Speaker 6: psychosis in mental institutions. Going back to the eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 6: A forensic pathologist named Cyril Wett, who's a very controversial

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Speaker 6: figure in forensic pathology, started using the phrase excited delirium

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Speaker 6: or cocaine psychosis in the nineteen eighties to try to

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Speaker 6: explain people who were dying in Miami in bizarre circumstances

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Speaker 6: that was then later debunked that it wasn't related to

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Speaker 6: any sort of drug intoxication. I think, in fact, this

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Speaker 6: is I'm speculating a little bit this because I forget

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Speaker 6: it all now. But like, I think some of the

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Speaker 6: deaths of these women that they were targeting were basically

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Speaker 6: like they were using sort of like their sexuality against them,

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Speaker 6: and that they were actually killed by a serial killer

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Speaker 6: I believe was one of the findings. If you guys,

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Speaker 6: am I right about that? You guys might know that you.

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Speaker 3: Are on the stuff. Yeah, you are correct, Yeah, are correct. Nick.

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Speaker 4: When I was talking with Robert, he was able to

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Speaker 4: confirm that on the on that show, it's it's kind

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Speaker 4: of bullsh though right excited.

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Speaker 6: It's a bullsh syndrome that because people could not explain

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Speaker 6: some pathology that led some people with mental illness to die.

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Speaker 6: The pathology always required restraint. People weren't just dropping dead. Well,

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Speaker 6: what could happen is somebody who was really worked up,

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Speaker 6: whether that was because of drugs or some sort of

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Speaker 6: mental break, would be restrained, and the restraint itself was

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Speaker 6: typically a trigger for how someone might die because there

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Speaker 6: was no obvious forensic pathway to show it was a asphyxiation, right,

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Speaker 6: They just they didn't they couldn't.

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Speaker 3: Breathe or whatever.

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Speaker 6: There was no obvious, clear cut point to the liver

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Speaker 6: and show the damage to deliver and say that's why

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Speaker 6: it happened. Excited delierum kind of became this thing that

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Speaker 6: was bandied about, like maybe there's some sort of right

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Speaker 6: like syndrome that's taking place in people who are not

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Speaker 6: within their own sound minded body. Taser took that in

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Speaker 6: and it started in the very first training version. I

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Speaker 6: believe I saw this, and I may be wrong. It

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Speaker 6: might have come in earlier, but I really remember it

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Speaker 6: starting to be pushed into trained versions around November of

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Speaker 6: two thousand and four. This is a super controversial period

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Speaker 6: because again the stock is skyrocketing, and this is when

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Speaker 6: they're also for the first time, really being pounded by

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Speaker 6: you know, big national media. The SEC is floating around

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Speaker 6: thinking about an investigation. Yearson attorney generals about to start

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Speaker 6: an investigation. So they are looking to show cops who

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Speaker 6: are seeing these headlines and thinking about, how's the taser

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Speaker 6: not killing these people? Why can we trust you when

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Speaker 6: you say that the taser cannot kill? They point to

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Speaker 6: excited delirium, which for American police is the perfect perfect

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Speaker 6: excuse because we have such a culture victim blaming in

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Speaker 6: American policing that it basically allows the cops to say,

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Speaker 6: it wasn't the taser. It wasn't my actions of the

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Speaker 6: tasering someone for a minute in fifteen seconds who was

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Speaker 6: high on methamphetamine that caused this person to die. It

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Speaker 6: was them being high on methamphetamine, dying of excited delirium

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Speaker 6: and just crashing out. And that they they put so

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Speaker 6: much energy into pushing excited delirium and all these conditions

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Speaker 6: that sort of get bucketed with excited delirium as the

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Speaker 6: reason for why people were dying in custody, and that

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Speaker 6: coflected blame, especially with the customer with American police, from

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Speaker 6: the weapon itself, because that's really who they were answering to.

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Speaker 6: The SEC investigation that happened into Taser International was whether

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Speaker 6: or not they lied about the safety of the Taser. Well,

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Speaker 6: to prove that they lied about the safety of the tasers,

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Speaker 6: you would need to do some medical research to dispute

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Speaker 6: their claims, which the SEC is a financial regulatory body.

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Speaker 6: The we're gonna do right. The Arizona Attorney General's Office

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Speaker 6: dropped their investigation because Taser agreed to essentially stop calling

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Speaker 6: tasers none wethough they would refer to them as less lethal,

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Speaker 6: and that was fine for the Arizona AG. The investigation

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Speaker 6: gets dropped, right, it's cops who matter. They are the

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Speaker 6: only ones who can basically kill this business if there

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Speaker 6: is some skepticism, and for a period there was. Two

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Speaker 6: thousand and five was a brutal year for Taser International

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Speaker 6: because they were under sec investigation and a lot of

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Speaker 6: departments canceled orders saying we can't do business with a

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Speaker 6: company who might get hammered by the Feds. We have

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Speaker 6: to pause this until this gets sorted out, and excited

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Speaker 6: de leering became a part of that push to show no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 6: it's not the Taser, it's all these other things and like,

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Speaker 6: you know, that guy was just a drug addict, piece

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Speaker 6: of who dropped dead, and like they're blaming the Taser

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Speaker 6: now because that's what these crybabies do. Mike Brave said

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Speaker 6: something one of the most despicable things I've ever read

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Speaker 6: in Princeton, quite frankly, where he said to mother Jones,

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Speaker 6: I think who has did a big investigation at the

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Speaker 6: time about excited tiary And he said, you know, do

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Speaker 6: we blame the druggies, the druggie or the druggies mom

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Speaker 6: who cries when someone dies. No, we blame the cop

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Speaker 6: and we blame the taser because that's what's there the

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Speaker 6: time of death. And it was so prevalent a part

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Speaker 6: of their rhetoric that these were people out to get you,

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Speaker 6: the officer in us, the company trying to provide you

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Speaker 6: with service, and you know what, like them, it's their

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Speaker 6: own fault. And that worked. That worked incredibly well. It

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Speaker 6: worked on Matt Masters. And that is what I feel

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Speaker 6: is so devastating is that if it had actually been

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Speaker 6: taken seriously and honestly right, there could have been a

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Speaker 6: sort of reforming of the way the weapon was treated

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Speaker 6: and policies were made. There could have been an honest

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Speaker 6: discussion about what the real risk was of the device,

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Speaker 6: without without pulling them off the street, without getting cups

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Speaker 6: to use them. But the difference is if police officers

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Speaker 6: then started to put in their minds there was a

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Speaker 6: small risk that someone could be killed or armed from

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Speaker 6: this weapon, they would no longer be tasering six year

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Speaker 6: olds and grandmothers and people who didn't want to sign

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Speaker 6: speeding tickets. And why if I am the Chicago PD,

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Speaker 6: find the NYPD, find these huge departments where they were

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Speaker 6: pushing to arm every officer with a taser. Why would

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Speaker 6: I give every officer a taser when they already have

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Speaker 6: a gun, they already have pepper spread, they already have

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Speaker 6: the baton, you know, whatever it may be. And if

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Speaker 6: they're only going to be able to allow to use

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Speaker 6: a taser when there's a real fight that's happening, why

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Speaker 6: would I spend millions of dollars for the department to

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Speaker 6: give everyone one? Just give them to you know, sergeants,

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Speaker 6: give them the supervisory and it's give then the swat whatever.

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Speaker 6: And that would kill the whole business model, because the

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Speaker 6: business model was this wasn't some niche weapon. The business

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Speaker 6: model was this was a panacea. This was a magical

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Speaker 6: bullet that could be used for anything.

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Speaker 4: Let's pause here, we'll have a word from our sponsors,

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Speaker 4: and then we'll dive deeper into the story of tasers,

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Speaker 4: and we've returned.

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Speaker 2: It really sucks because, like I said at the top

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Speaker 2: of this, it seems like a great idea to have

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Speaker 2: this thing at the ready as a non lethal force

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Speaker 2: that can be deployed. But you know, it just it.

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Speaker 2: It isn't used in the way that it's ever I've seen.

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Speaker 2: I've never seen a video of a taser being deployed

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Speaker 2: by a police officer that is used in the way

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Speaker 2: that is used in the tests. And if you look

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Speaker 2: at those tests, every single one, including the one with

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Speaker 2: Hans Morrero, which was like the big one, there is

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Speaker 2: a mat laid on the ground so that a human

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Speaker 2: being when they fall down in the way a human

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Speaker 2: being falls down when they're tased, it doesn't cause damage

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Speaker 2: right when you fall down that way. But then in

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Speaker 2: almost every video you see of a police officer using

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Speaker 2: a taser, there is either asphalt or concrete or some

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Speaker 2: hard surface that's there. And people don't talk about the

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Speaker 2: traumatic brain injuries that occur when a taser is deployed

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Speaker 2: because a human being falls face down onto concrete or asphalt.

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Speaker 2: It just stinks because if it was used in those

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Speaker 2: little bursts, Like I'm not trying to say tasers are

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Speaker 2: safe in that way, but if it was used in

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Speaker 2: those little bursts to stop someone in the moment, it

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Speaker 2: seems like it would be a fairly safe weapon, fairly

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Speaker 2: safe weapon for most instances.

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Speaker 5: But it's just it's just not and it seems like

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Speaker 5: it's just become a device for intimidation.

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Speaker 4: Also, yeah, yeah, also a huge profit center, but as

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Speaker 4: we alluded to, not the sole income stream for Taser

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Speaker 4: International at this point, and that's something we definitely have

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Speaker 4: to address. Like the thing that Matt is bringing up

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Speaker 4: here is mission critical, right. It's kind of like how

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Speaker 4: during prohibition, companies would sell grape juice concentrate and they

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Speaker 4: would have an awarding label on the package that said,

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Speaker 4: don't do the following things because this will turn that

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Speaker 4: grape juice into an alcoholic beverage. And everyone was like, oh, gotcha, buddy.

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Speaker 4: So we see again the conflict of Like, one thing

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Speaker 4: I love about absolute in general is the way that

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Speaker 4: you describe it as a story about unchecked power, and

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Speaker 4: it goes so much deeper than the mechanics or the

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Speaker 4: science of taser technology. I see it as a battle

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Speaker 4: between stories with lives on the line, right, narratives, truth

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Speaker 4: versus fiction, pr versus reality. And we see also and

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Speaker 4: this is a personal question, now I want to put

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Speaker 4: you too much on the spot here, Nick, but we

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Speaker 4: see also that big taser I'm.

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Speaker 3: Calling them, that can be a little bit.

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Speaker 4: A little bit defensive when people find things that don't

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Speaker 4: match their stories. So can you tell us a little

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Speaker 4: about legal actions or reprisals that people feel they have encountered.

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Speaker 4: And on the personal note, dude, have you at any

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Speaker 4: point felt like someone was gunning for you as a

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Speaker 4: result of this, because you've been at this for more

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Speaker 4: than a decade and a half.

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Speaker 6: Personally, I've never felt a lot of threat or danger

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Speaker 6: in any way from the usual. You know, they were

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Speaker 6: very serious when my film came out about review bombing

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Speaker 6: the documentary on Amazon and IMDb, at these iTunes and

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Speaker 6: these things, attacking me personally in the press, doing that

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Speaker 6: kind of stuff you expect, right, They sort of that backfires,

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Speaker 6: right because that just draws more attention. What I'm dealing

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Speaker 6: with now is a completely different company than I was

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Speaker 6: dealing with ten years ago. And that's because they are

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Speaker 6: a tech conglomerate. I mean, I've told people, and I

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Speaker 6: firmly believe this to be true, that this is the

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Speaker 6: most important and powerful company at least that's publicly traded,

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Speaker 6: let's say that you don't actually know about. And the

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Speaker 6: reason for that is because they have more from this

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Speaker 6: niche taser manufacturer into the dominant provider of all law

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Speaker 6: enforcement technology, and that's expanding into different public safety sectors

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Speaker 6: like healthcare, public schools, even rights. That's how far this

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Speaker 6: is getting. They were, you know, billion dollar ish company

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Speaker 6: when I when I was doing my film ten years ago.

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Speaker 6: They are a fifty billion dollar company now. And that

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Speaker 6: is because of the camera systems, the drones, the artificial intelligence,

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Speaker 6: all these other things that they used the taser's success for,

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Speaker 6: and the relationships they had in policing already because of

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Speaker 6: the taser. They took those relationships and leveraged them into

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Speaker 6: all these other tech spaces. So to answer that question,

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Speaker 6: they are now much much too big to make the

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Speaker 6: mistake of picking on me personally in some way, because

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Speaker 6: they would know that would just invite more eyeballs onto

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Speaker 6: what they are actually up to. And Rick Smith himself,

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Speaker 6: while still deeply involved in the company, right is not

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Speaker 6: actually calling the shots in the same way he would

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Speaker 6: have been ten years ago because this is a much

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Speaker 6: more buttoned up place. That doesn't mean you don't see

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Speaker 6: read Reuter's been doing an amazing job, you know, like

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Speaker 6: writing stories about the culture at Axon and the kind

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Speaker 6: of weird that they still do but this is a

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Speaker 6: place that wants to be seen much more in the

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Speaker 6: line of Apple than it would you know, ten years ago,

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Speaker 6: when it was still just kind of a niche weapons manufacturer. Now,

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Speaker 6: does that mean that they don't do some things that

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Speaker 6: I would would still find intimidating. Sure, you know, they

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Speaker 6: especially did them. I felt like we premiered a Tribeca

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Speaker 6: Film Festival, you know, when my film came out. I

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Speaker 6: was certain that I was being you know, watched and

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Speaker 6: followed during that you know experience. As we got ready

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Speaker 6: to launch our podcast, Rick Smith decided to launch his

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Speaker 6: own podcast at his own show called Boldly Go Right

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Speaker 6: to like tell the company's mythology. Matt Stroud, who helped

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Speaker 6: me with this project, wrote a book that Taser was

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Speaker 6: a big part of five six years ago. Then Rick

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Speaker 6: Smith launched his wrote his own book called The End

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Speaker 6: of Killing, sort of as a way to compete with that.

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Speaker 6: He does some weird stuff like that, But mostly what's

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Speaker 6: scary to me is that like they are so beyond

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Speaker 6: dealing with you know, like me, that actually, like they're

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Speaker 6: too buttoned up to do anything dumb. And that's actually

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Speaker 6: what's scary is the stuff they they do now is

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Speaker 6: like Minority Report. And Rick Smith wrote about how like

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Speaker 6: Minority Report is actually a great idea, like let's kidnap,

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Speaker 6: Let's kidnap three clairvoyant women and like put them in

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Speaker 6: a bathtub and make them predict murders forever. And Rick

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Speaker 6: like sees that movie and is like, that's some genius

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Speaker 6: right there.

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Speaker 3: It's like, what's the oldie, what's the old sci fi meme?

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Speaker 4: It's like someone walks into a boardroom and says, guys,

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Speaker 4: remember that amazing novel Never Build the World ender, Well,

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Speaker 4: he had read it, and we think we can do

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Speaker 4: it right down here, right.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: That seems to be holding true for a lot of

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Speaker 5: these tech giants lately, like with the giant AI facilities

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Speaker 5: and the you know, supercomputers named after science fiction characters

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Speaker 5: and like Hyperion and stuff like that. It seems like

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Speaker 5: they didn't quite get the message of a lot of

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Speaker 5: these dystopian uh, these dystopian novels jib.

434
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 2: When we're making comparisons here to Apple and other tech companies,

435
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 2: Let's just let's jump to Forbes really quick, just so

436
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 2: we can understand how big Axon Enterprises is. If you

437
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 2: look at the CEO compensation for a company like Apple.

438
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 2: Tim Cook. We've heard Tim Cook's name, we know who

439
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 2: that is. We've seen him on the on the TV

440
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 2: all the time. He took home seventy five million dollars

441
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 2: last year as his compensation package. Steven Schwarzman, the CEO

442
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 2: of the Blackstone Group that we talk about a lot

443
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 2: on this podcast, he took home eighty four million. Rick

444
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 2: Smith last year topped Forbes list of CEO compensation, taking

445
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 2: home one hundred and sixty five million dollars last year.

446
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 2: Just he's at the top of the list. And we

447
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 2: how often do you have a conversation with your friends

448
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 2: about Axon Enterprise?

449
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 3: Right?

450
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 6: And what what I guess Ben was initially asking, which

451
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 6: I think was kind of the bigger point that I'm making,

452
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 6: is twenty years ago they were so eager to they

453
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 6: sued Gannett newspapers right like they they did what I

454
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 6: would say is dumb pr stuff. They attacked reporters a lot.

455
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 6: They accused Alex Berenson, who was writing for The New

456
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 6: York Times at that point, of being in on a

457
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 6: poker game, you know, with hedge fund managers, and that's

458
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 6: why he was attacking them. In the press. I mean,

459
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,360
Speaker 6: they just did the kind of conspiratorial things that are

460
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 6: actually not rooted in it, that like, actually not rooted

461
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 6: it in some truth the power. Not that the media

462
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 6: doesn't have deserve our critiques every now and then, of

463
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 6: course we do. But the point being, like they were

464
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 6: so eager to sit up and have those fights. They

465
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 6: would sue, they would attack, they would do these things

466
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 6: relentlessly because there was a cult of personality around what

467
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 6: they were doing and the leadership. And now the language

468
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 6: is terrifying because the language is these stages and these

469
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 6: product launches and these things you're used to with the

470
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 6: Apples of the World, where Rick will get on stage

471
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 6: and tell you that we are going to live in

472
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 6: a world without any crime anymore because of the technology

473
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 6: that he is going to provide. And don't worry, we'll

474
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 6: use our ethics panel to weigh in when we think

475
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 6: we might be going too far. And oh, by the way,

476
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 6: because the ethics panel doesn't think we should put taser

477
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 6: drones in schools, we're going to fire basically, or I

478
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 6: shouldn't say fire. Nine of that twelve board members technically resigned, right,

479
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 6: but when the board disagrees, nine of the twelve board

480
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 6: members resign, and they don't really have a public facing

481
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 6: ethics board anymore. That's actually what's scary about this now

482
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 6: is morphed into the kind of company that has resources

483
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 6: and power that is so big and vast that they

484
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 6: wouldn't even bother to mess with someone like me anymore,

485
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 6: because all they could do is pick a fight with

486
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 6: somebody who's just going to draw attention to them in

487
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 6: a way that they don't need, they don't care about.

488
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: NY could just pressure companies during some kind of acquisition phase.

489
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 2: I don't know, Paramount.

490
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 3: South Park, keep it in. Sorry, we've got a bug

491
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,439
Speaker 3: going around the office. Nick, wake up.

492
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 2: That episode delayed by a week somehow, somehow.

493
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 5: Okay, let's take a quick pause right here for a

494
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 5: word from our sponsor, and then we'll jump right back

495
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 5: into the troubling history and future of tasers.

496
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 6: And we're back, folks.

497
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 4: There is so so much more we want to get to, Nick.

498
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 4: You are being so generous with your time. We wanted

499
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 4: to point this out, folks. We recommend visiting the Lava

500
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 4: for Good website to check out episodes of Absolute because

501
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 4: I mean, of course available wherever you find your favorite shows.

502
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 4: I think we're legally required to say that. But if

503
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 4: you go to the Lava for Good website, when you

504
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 4: check in on each episode page, you can find in

505
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 4: depth supporting literature and documentation that backs up everything that

506
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 4: you are saying. And you're very you unlike maybe Axon's board,

507
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 4: you are very ethical in your exploration here. And we

508
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 4: just want to say we have such immense respect for

509
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 4: the moments where you were very clear and you're saying, Look,

510
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 4: I can't specifically like I cannot provably objectively say this thing.

511
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 4: I can show you these things are true, and that's

512
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 4: a nuance that's Missy in a lot of reporting. And

513
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 4: I hate that all four of us noded our heads

514
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 4: when we when we made that point. Uh, what do

515
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 4: you hope that people can get out of the show

516
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 4: once they tune into Absolutely, we watch, we hear it.

517
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 4: They will watch the documentary as well. We're walking away,

518
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 4: we're talking with someone the next day. What do we

519
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 4: know what has changed?

520
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 3: Well?

521
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 6: I think you know, the show is rooted in the

522
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 6: story of Matt Masters, who is a who is a

523
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 6: cop who had dedicated his whole life to policing in

524
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 6: this way of you know, I hate to use the

525
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 6: cliche of warrior cop, right, But I mean this was

526
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 6: a swat guy who kicked in a thousand doors and

527
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 6: did the real stuff, and someone who believed in the

528
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 6: job in a way that was admirable. I think I

529
00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 6: think he did actually wants to do good in the

530
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 6: world when he started, and what you hear from him,

531
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 6: what you understand is it is a show about tasers,

532
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 6: but it's also show about policing and the system of policing.

533
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 6: The nature of how these guys are trained, what they

534
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 6: are asked to do, is so rooted in hero worship.

535
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 6: It's so rooted in US versus them mentality that it

536
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 6: actually made Matt doubt his own kid because he didn't

537
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 6: believe for a while that his own kid wouldn't have

538
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 6: done something to provoke an officer from tasering him. And

539
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 6: the tragedy of this is that this company that made

540
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 6: this taser used and leveraged that sort of mentality to

541
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 6: build a massive, massive business starting with the taser, and

542
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 6: when hit the fan, when it was clear they had

543
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 6: lied about the safety of the device for many years

544
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 6: to these officers, very surreptitiously threw those officers under the bus.

545
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 6: They made it so the liability for what happens when

546
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 6: a taser does injure kill someone is squarely on the

547
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 6: shoulders of the cops who were using them, and the

548
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 6: cops who were using them are still operating under a

549
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 6: message that the weapon is perfectly safe.

550
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 5: It almost sounds like what happened with the Purdue Pharma

551
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 5: and the you know, like oxycotton being non addictive and

552
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 5: then sort of throwing the doctors under the bus and

553
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 5: the pharmacy reps and things.

554
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,479
Speaker 6: One thousand percent. And what I say is like, I mean,

555
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 6: you don't forget that they hired and used cops as

556
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 6: trainers to teach this material that they wrote. So when

557
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 6: the cops were sitting in training, they were not seeing

558
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 6: a taser salesperson, They were seeing a police officer, someone

559
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 6: who was a part of that brotherhood with them, right,

560
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 6: And that betrayal of law enforcement speaks to the company

561
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 6: willingness to protect itself, to choose itself right over over

562
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 6: over a million police officers doing this public safety job,

563
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 6: but also speaks to the complicity of American policing in

564
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 6: the way that they are willing to basically receive any

565
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 6: sort of messaging that that is in line with that

566
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 6: broad thinking, which is that we are on the right

567
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 6: side of the thin blue line. We are protecting the

568
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 6: world from chaos, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, to

569
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 6: the degree that they were betrayed and they sort of

570
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 6: swallowed their own betrayal, and that the irony of that

571
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 6: is that the moment Michael Brown was killed in Ferguson,

572
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 6: Taser International took their body camera product, which was struggling

573
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 6: to sell because cops didn't want to be filmed all day,

574
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 6: and changed the messaging and pivoted the messaging to be

575
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,239
Speaker 6: about transparency, to be about accountability, to appeal to a

576
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 6: public that was now asking for their police off officers

577
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 6: to be held to some sort of proof right about

578
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 6: what they were doing in their jobs. That shows you

579
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 6: the ability of the company to find its way through

580
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 6: the mass and figure out a way to profit off

581
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 6: of anything. Now that same company right gives you the

582
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 6: rhetoric like we're going to no longer live in a

583
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 6: world of crime because cameras are going to be everywhere.

584
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 6: And I will say the scariest thing to me is

585
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 6: I don't believe in this, Like if you what did

586
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 6: you do to get tasered stuff. But it is true

587
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 6: that when a cop, when cops were attacking Matt Masters,

588
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 6: what he was personally trying to warn them because he

589
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 6: went on this journey of discovery and saw this stuff existed.

590
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 6: After the surgeon told them that the taser caused his

591
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 6: son's cardiac arrest, he did his own research and it

592
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 6: wasn't hard to realize, Oh, this is actually out here,

593
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 6: this is happening across the country. And when he tried

594
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 6: to talk to his fellow officers about the actual dangers

595
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 6: they weren't learning about in their taser training, he was

596
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,439
Speaker 6: brushed aside, and his own son was basically said, why

597
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 6: didn't you just do what the cop told him to do?

598
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 4: Right?

599
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 6: I don't believe in that kind of thinking, right. I

600
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 6: don't believe Bryce's Masters deserved what he got because he

601
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 6: refused to get out of a car when the officer

602
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 6: told him to get out of a car. When Bryce

603
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 6: was asking why am I being placed under arrest. There's

604
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 6: a whole history you'll hear about in the show about

605
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 6: why why he was wary of doing that, why he's

606
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 6: wary of getting out of the car. But it is

607
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 6: true that he made a choice that he made a

608
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 6: choice not to comply. When you leave your apartment and

609
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 6: you go to the corner store to buy a sandwich,

610
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 6: it get a cop You are not making a conscious

611
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 6: choice to put your face on a company's database to

612
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 6: then be analyzed and used it predicted about whether or

613
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 6: not you are more likely to shoplift for that sandwich

614
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,280
Speaker 6: in that coat. That is what is happening. It's not coming,

615
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 6: it is already in effect. These are these real time

616
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 6: crime centers where they are stationed. They are placing cams everywhere,

617
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 6: right everywhere, and they are going to axon surfers and

618
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 6: they are being fed through artificial intelligence to figure out

619
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 6: who is going to commit crimes and who is not.

620
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 6: They have been very very slow and very very cautious

621
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 6: about facial recognition in a public facing way. But do

622
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 6: we really believe that the.

623
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 7: Moment the public opinion shifts just enough to say like,

624
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 7: oh maybe this technology isn't so bad, they won't be

625
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 7: ready to capitalize and go full force on facial recognition

626
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 7: technology on the dashcam videos that they now push because

627
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 7: they have dashcam software on the body cameras that they

628
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 7: have on the street light cameras that they have acquired

629
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 7: that they are trying to put everywhere.

630
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 3: Right, this is.

631
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 6: All about surveillance now, and you don't opt into that surveillance.

632
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,720
Speaker 6: There's no user agreement for you to sign. You decide

633
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 6: to leave your house. That's your choice to opt in

634
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 6: to being watched constantly while they profit from here.

635
00:36:58,840 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 3: That's your consent.

636
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 2: God, dang, it is horrifying.

637
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 3: We've got to have you back on the show. I

638
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 3: was mesrized. It is true.

639
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, well we say it. We say it so often.

640
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 4: You know, a lot of the things that are sometimes

641
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 4: dismissed as alarmism, especially in the world of tech and surveillance,

642
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 4: those things are already here there, They're happening, right.

643
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 1: Uh.

644
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 4: Companies do a lot of things poorly, and they do

645
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 4: a lot of things well. But one thing companies that

646
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 4: this size never do is improvise and play jazz. Right,

647
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 4: if something rolls out, there has been a plan in place.

648
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 6: Right. And drones, I forgot drones, drones everywhere, And that's.

649
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 2: What I was looking at Nick on their website. The

650
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 2: way they talk about with FUSUS they can integrate all

651
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 2: the cameras and the drones. And we talked about what

652
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 2: is it spot Shotter or shot Spotter.

653
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, we got a nice letter from them.

654
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 2: So Mike's cameras drones.

655
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 4: Great, guys, we got a nice just check it in

656
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 4: from uh, from from our good friends at spotshotter. What

657
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 4: what a what a world. We're not joking or at

658
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,919
Speaker 4: least I'm not joking about, uh. The positive about having

659
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,439
Speaker 4: you back on for a further exploration because Noel Matt,

660
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 4: I know there are a bunch of things that we

661
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 4: did not get to.

662
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 5: Uh.

663
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,959
Speaker 4: We also want to shout out our producer Dylan who

664
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 4: we were talking about sci fi and not learning the lessons.

665
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 4: Dylan proposed the name We've built the Torment Nexus from the.

666
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 3: From the World Fatus novel. Please don't build the Torment Nexus. Nick.

667
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,320
Speaker 4: Where can people not just learn more about your work

668
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 4: in general, but where can we reach out to you

669
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 4: and your team on the subject of tasers, on the

670
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 4: subject of expansion of technology and what this means for

671
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 4: the future.

672
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 3: Where can people find you?

673
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 6: Yes, I am still on the x Twitter you know machine,

674
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 6: so definitely follow me at Nick Beardini on Twitter or X.

675
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 6: I am also on Instagram at Nick Beredini, but the

676
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 6: Lava page I definitely encourage everybody to follow and get

677
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 6: in touch with us on the Lava page. That's Lava

678
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 6: Podcasts at Lava for Good on Instagram TikTok Right, Lava,

679
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 6: The reason I did this show with them is because

680
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 6: they did Bone Valley and Bone Valley to me is

681
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 6: one of the best podcasts ever made about the wrongful

682
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 6: conviction of a man named Leo Schofield in Florida. And

683
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 6: so Lava is really pushing hard for this idea of

684
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 6: black mirror, you know, taking effect, especially in this story,

685
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 6: and that's basically I think hopefully where we'll end up

686
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 6: going in season two is trying to explore, now, okay,

687
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 6: the success of the Taser. We tease this, you know

688
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,240
Speaker 6: at the end of this current season, but the success

689
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,760
Speaker 6: of the taser, what has that? What does that mean

690
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 6: for today? And definitely check Lava out because they're going

691
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,240
Speaker 6: to be doing more shows in that same absolute feed

692
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:19,240
Speaker 6: that we're in. That kind of wrestle with the marriage

693
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 6: between capitalism technology.

694
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 4: What a phenomenal right, I mean, we obviously we came

695
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 4: in and we weren't all keeping the same notes for

696
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 4: this one, so I know there's a bunch of stuff

697
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 4: we weren't able to get to But I don't know, guys.

698
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 4: One thing I was thinking about, why is there not

699
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 4: more regulation regarding these devices, Like we can just pop

700
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 4: on Taser's website, or we can pop on Amazon, like

701
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,959
Speaker 4: you were saying, Noel, and there's no age restriction, there's

702
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 4: no licensing, there's no like training course. You can just

703
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 4: buy one with a credit card.

704
00:40:57,920 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

705
00:40:58,160 --> 00:40:59,959
Speaker 5: The whole point of the pivotal moment was when gun

706
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 5: powder was removed from these and allowed them to be

707
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 5: classified in a different way to firearms, which I think

708
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 5: opens things up. I think you buy them just the

709
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 5: same way as you buy pepper spray. But Nick also

710
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 5: does some really great differentiation between the consumer models that

711
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 5: are available on say Amazon, and the kinds that law

712
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 5: enforcement uses.

713
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 4: And with that, folks, thanks again to Nick. Thanks again

714
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 4: to you for tuning in. We've got a lot of

715
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 4: people in law enforcement in the crowd. We've got a

716
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 4: lot of veterans in the audience. We have a lot

717
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 4: of people who have one way or another interacted with

718
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 4: Tasers and perhaps unknowingly with this company Axon. We want

719
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 4: to hear your thoughts. You can find us on the internet,

720
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 4: you can give us a phone call, you can always

721
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 4: send us an email.

722
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 5: That's right. Find us in the handle Conspiracy Stuff where

723
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 5: we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group here is

724
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 5: where it gets crazy. On x FKA, Twitter and on

725
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 5: YouTube with video content glore for your perusing enjoyment on

726
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 5: Instagram and TikTok. However, we are Conspiracy Stuff Show.

727
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 2: If you want to give us a call, our number

728
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 2: is one eight three three STDWYTK. When you call in,

729
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 2: give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if

730
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 2: we can use your name and message on the air.

731
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 2: If you'd like to send us an email.

732
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 4: We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence

733
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 4: we receive.

734
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 3: Be well aware, yet unafraid.

735
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 4: Sometimes the void writes back and Hey, if you are

736
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 4: interested in further exploration of some topics we discussed in

737
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 4: this two part interview segment, do check out Behind the

738
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 4: Bastards twenty twenty one series on the concept of excited delirium.

739
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 4: Warning it's not appropriate for all audiences anyway. We are

740
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 4: conspiracy iHeartRadio dot com.

741
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a product

742
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio

743
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,760
Speaker 2: app Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,