1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine, Hey fam Today, on the bright Side, author 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: Glennis McNichol is here to tell us how to enjoy ourselves. 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: We're talking pleasure, womanhood, and Paris Baby. It's Monday, July eighth. 4 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 2: I'm Simone Boyce, I'm Danielle Robe and this is the 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 2: bright Side from Hello Sunshine. 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 3: Happy Monday, Danielle. 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: It is on my mind Monday, the day of the 8 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: week when we share something that motivates us, inspires curiosity, 9 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: and provides a fresh perspective to the week ahead. So 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: what's on your mind today, Danielle. 11 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 2: Okay, what's on my mind is being a late bloomer. 12 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 2: So many of us feel pressured by society to achieve 13 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 2: success early. There's these lists like thirty under thirty, and 14 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 2: we hear these stories of young achievers like Bill Gates 15 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 2: and Taylor Swift. But there was a recent article in 16 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 2: The Atlantic that I loved and it highlights the benefits 17 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 2: of being a late bloomer. And as somebody who feels 18 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 2: like a late bloomer in many ways, I just felt 19 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: so kind of like this article gave me a big hug. 20 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 4: In some ways, this feels very bright side. 21 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 3: I want to hear more. 22 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 4: Oh, I love that. 23 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 2: Yes, it suggests that late bloomers have these unique traits 24 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 2: that make them successful. So there's three main ones. The 25 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 2: first is intrinsic motivation. They're driven by personal interests rather 26 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 2: than external rewards. 27 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 4: Do you identify with that? 28 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: I think I was driven by external rewards for a while, 29 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: like in my twenties, but now I'm driven by personal interests. 30 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 4: Love that that's growth, right, definitely. 31 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 2: The second is diversive curiosity, so it's gained from trying 32 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 2: different jobs and interests, which leads to a broad range 33 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 2: of knowledge. It's basically like trying on different hats to 34 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 2: see if they fit and taking what you like and 35 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 2: what you don't like from them. And then the third 36 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 2: is wisdom, which is achieved after a lifetime of experimentation 37 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 2: and learning. Do you consider yourself a late bloomer at all? 38 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: I don't really know how to answer this question because 39 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: I don't want to compare myself to other people's timelines. 40 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: So to me, it's like, well, what is what is late? 41 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 3: What is early? What is on time? 42 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: Because everybody's on We're all on our own timelines, and 43 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: I actually quite like my timeline. 44 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 3: I like my timing. I like my journey. 45 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 2: That's so beautiful. I think that's what we're all kind 46 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 2: of working towards. Mika Brazinski started she I think she 47 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: hated the Forbes thirty Under thirty list because she felt 48 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 2: the same way, and so she started a whole new 49 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 2: list with the fifty over fifty nominations, which I absolutely 50 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 2: love seeing. But there's this fascinating statistic from the American 51 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 2: Economic Review that the likelihood of a startup success increases 52 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 2: significantly between ages twenty five and thirty five, and it 53 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 2: continues to rise into the fifties. So the average age 54 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 2: of a successful entrepreneur is forty five. And if you 55 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: were reading the news, you would never think that, because 56 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 2: we hear about these like kid geniuses who are eighteen 57 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 2: and dropped out of college and walked into a boardroom 58 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 2: with a backpack and became a billionaire. 59 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: You know, well, we're far more generous with our societal 60 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: timelines when it comes to men, like it's not surprising 61 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: to picture a successful entrepreneur who's a man who's forty 62 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: five years old. But for women, we have these expiration 63 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: dates that are so punishing. 64 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 2: So well said, I think our fertility probably has a 65 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 2: lot to do with it, but when I read other 66 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 2: women's stories, it gives me a lot of solace. So 67 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 2: I just want to share a few women who quote 68 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 2: unquote made it or lived out their moments and their 69 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 2: dreams past their twenties. So Tony Morrison was thirty nine 70 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 2: when she first published her novel The Bluest Eye, and 71 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 2: she won the Pulitzer at fifty six. Julia Childs was 72 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 2: in her late thirties when she even tasted French food 73 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: for the first time, and she published her cookbook at 74 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 2: forty nine. 75 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 4: This one. 76 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 2: I love pilot and flight instructor Wally Funk. She's a 77 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 2: trailblazer for women in space and aviation. She went to 78 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: space for the first time at eighty two. So I 79 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 2: say all this to say that anybody who feels like 80 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: they need to embrace the bright side of being a 81 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 2: late bloomer, whatever that means for you, please embrace it. 82 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 4: There are examples and stories all around us. 83 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: You have plenty of time is an overlooked, under hyped 84 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: affirmation that I think we can all be extending to 85 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: ourselves a lot more often. 86 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's fitting to lead into our 87 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 2: next guests because She's a prime example of living life 88 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 2: on her own timeline and defining success for herself as 89 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 2: opposed to living our culture's just blanket definition. Glennis McNichol 90 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 2: is an author, podcast host, and producer. Her latest book, 91 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 2: I'm Mostly Here to enjoy Myself One Woman's Pursuit of 92 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 2: Pleasure in Paris, has made cultural waves. She discusses how 93 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 2: her Resian adventure reshaped her outlook as she approaches fifty. 94 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: And how the book came to be as super interesting too. 95 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: I mean, Glennis was living alone in New York City 96 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: during the pandemic. During that time, she experienced what she 97 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: calls quote extreme loneliness no one can prepare you for. 98 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: So she actually went months without touch or face to 99 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: face contact. So when she was offered the chance to 100 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: sublet her friend's apartment in Paris, she immediately jumped on 101 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: the opportunity and proceeded to live her best life for 102 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: the next six weeks. 103 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: And a big theme in all of her books is 104 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: centering joyful single women, which has been her own personal experience. 105 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 2: But here's what I find particularly interesting about her work. 106 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: Whether she's podcasting or producing or writing, she focuses on 107 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 2: the breath of womanhood, and many of the stories she 108 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 2: explores are far outside. 109 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 4: Of her own experiences. 110 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 2: She did a critically acclaimed podcast called Under the Influence, 111 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: which looks at mommy influencer culture. Or she did another 112 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 2: podcast called which looked at the history of Laura Ingalls 113 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 2: Wilder by actually traveling the US to some of her 114 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 2: iconic places. And So, I think this particular book can 115 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 2: be summed up by a quote from The New York 116 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 2: Times about her memoir. It celebrates women who forge their 117 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 2: own paths, ignoring the cultural scripts they've been handed. 118 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 3: I love that. 119 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 4: So I think we have to go off. 120 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 2: Script today with Glennis McNicol. We'll be right back after 121 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 2: the break. 122 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: Don't go anywhere, y'all. Welcome to the bright Side, Glennis. 123 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much for having me. 124 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 4: We're so happy to have you here. 125 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,799 Speaker 2: We hear stories about single women, we hear stories about 126 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 2: happy women, but we don't often hear stories about single 127 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: happy women. And you've written several books that center joyful 128 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 2: single women. It's a joyful single woman. I really appreciate it. 129 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 2: But there's a Vogue interview you did in twenty eighteen 130 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 2: and you said this, I turned forty and promptly discovered 131 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: it was nothing like what I'd been led to believe 132 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 2: leading up to your forties. 133 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 4: What did you believe it was going to be versus 134 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 4: what it was? 135 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 5: Oh goodness, I'm turning fifty in September, so taking me 136 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 5: back to my thirties feels like. 137 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 6: A stretch at this point. 138 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 5: And I'm really grateful I wrote that book when I did, 139 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 5: because ten years on, I look back and I think, 140 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 5: was it really as hard as I wrote that it was? 141 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 5: But I think it was less what I expected them 142 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 5: to be and more that there was no blueprint for 143 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 5: what they could look like outside of partnership or parenthood. 144 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 5: It sort of felt like the whatever map we'd been 145 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 5: given sort of disappeared, and it was like, oh, you 146 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 5: have disappeared. There's no version of what life can look 147 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 5: like for you if you're not parenting or if you're 148 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 5: not partners. So I think the extreme anxiety over that 149 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 5: and feeling like I'd failed in some way was overwhelming 150 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 5: at that time. 151 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 4: You mentioned anxiety. 152 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 2: It's something that I feel when I tell people that 153 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 2: I'm thirty three, I feel their anxiety for me. What 154 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: did you want your life to look like? Why did 155 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 2: you feel like it was a failure. What had you 156 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 2: imagined for it? 157 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 5: I think there we don't have rituals around women's lives 158 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 5: outside of weddings and parenthood, and subsequently, there's no way 159 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 5: to celebrate your life. 160 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 6: And when you have. 161 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 5: No ritual around being successful in the world, it is 162 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 5: hard to feel successful. I suppose when no one understands 163 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 5: the choices you're making or sees them as valid choices, 164 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 5: or no. 165 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:47,719 Speaker 6: One really believes it. 166 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 5: I remember doing a Times article at the time where 167 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 5: it was like, no one believes I'm happy, because I 168 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 5: would just and it puts you in a strange, like 169 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,079 Speaker 5: sort of defensive place of like, no, actually, I'm quite 170 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 5: enjoying my life, but there's no narrative. 171 00:08:58,679 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 6: To point to. 172 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 5: You can't I like, here's my happy life. Photos that 173 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 5: resonate quite the same way. And I think that that 174 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 5: can undermine your sense of success in a way, constantly 175 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 5: having it questioned, and then the resentment of sort of 176 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 5: feeling like you have to defend yourself. I don't feel 177 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 5: any of that anymore, but I think at the time 178 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 5: I was like sensitive to it. 179 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: Glennis, I want to talk about your latest book. I'm 180 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: mostly here to enjoy myself. And I feel like I 181 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 1: have to mention that I just got back from Paris 182 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: myself so envious. 183 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 3: The jet lag is still wearing enough. 184 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I related to just about everything in this book 185 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: and I can't wait to really digest it with you. 186 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: But first I think we have to rewind and set 187 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: the stage four. How you even got to Paris? So 188 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: sixteen months earlier, before you move to Paris, you've used 189 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: the term skin hunger to describe the feeling of being 190 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: untouched for those sixteen months that you spent in pure 191 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: isolation during the pandemic. Can you describe what that felt like. 192 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 5: I live in New York City, and when we went 193 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 5: into lockdown in March twenty twenty, it was a really 194 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 5: strict lockdown, and I live in a very small Upper 195 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 5: West Side studio and I was alone in this studio 196 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 5: apartment for about fourteen or fifteen months, really alone. And 197 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 5: after a while you're like, oh, no one has responded 198 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 5: to my physical presence in any way, and I have 199 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 5: not had physical contact in any way. And skin hunger 200 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 5: is a real term that is used to describe what 201 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 5: happens to people who go without touch for extended periods. 202 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 5: Of time, and I read a study when I was 203 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 5: running the book that scientists discovered that animals who had 204 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 5: been restricted from touch for extended periods of time and 205 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 5: had the choice between food and touch would go for touch. 206 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 5: Is how essential touch is to our functioning in the world. 207 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 5: So after those sixteen months, I was really feeling crazy 208 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 5: to be embraced, to. 209 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 6: Be seen, like be seen in the most literal way. 210 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 5: I think we talked about women in age and invisibility, 211 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 5: and I was like, literally, I just wanted to literally, 212 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 5: you know, be seen by people. I like went into 213 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 5: my closet and took out all my vintage fur coats 214 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 5: and sort of laid them on the bed and lay 215 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 5: on top of them as like a way to approximate 216 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 5: some sort of tactile experience. Yeah, So it was. It 217 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 5: got to a point where it felt like I was crazed. 218 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 5: I mean, in hindsight, that's sort of how I exist 219 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 5: in my own memory. 220 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 2: Glennis, So you go to Paris and you sublet your 221 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 2: friend's apartment, and you mentioned lacking physical touch, but you 222 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,839 Speaker 2: get there and you have so much physical touch. You 223 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 2: have just an overwhelming amount of joy and pleasure. And 224 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 2: I'm wondering if you can share a story that's top 225 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 2: of mind where you either felt like you lived really 226 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 2: outside of yourself or now that I'm hearing this story, 227 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 2: a moment where you felt so inside of yourself. 228 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 5: Well, I think I was living for like lockdown, and 229 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 5: maybe this is true of everyone. 230 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 6: I was so far outside of myself that getting. 231 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 5: To Paris was sort of re entering my own body, 232 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 5: because so much time alone had felt like it was 233 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 5: separating me from my physical presence. And so those five 234 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 5: weeks where I landed and just like hurled myself into 235 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 5: everything pleasurable. I had a very close group of friends 236 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 5: there who I missed very much, And after I was 237 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 5: there for two weeks, we went dancing on the Seine 238 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 5: one Saturday night, which is what it sounds, you know. 239 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 5: I joke that there's sort of like the real Paris 240 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 5: and the fantasy Paris, but everyonece in a while they overlap. 241 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 6: And that was one of those nights where like all. 242 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 5: The Parisians were had set up picnic blankings and a 243 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 5: live band had formed out of the blue, and that 244 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 5: turned into this impromptu dance party and I ended up 245 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 5: dancing with this very handsome young man all night that 246 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 5: then progressed to him coming home with me. 247 00:12:57,920 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 6: And we had an even more enjoyable night. 248 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 5: The thing that strikes me about that whole five weeks, 249 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 5: and one of the reasons that I really wanted to 250 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 5: write it down, was like everything went right. 251 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 6: And I think that we rarely. 252 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 5: Have stories about women where everything goes right, especially women alone. 253 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 5: I think we attach fear to a woman alone for 254 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 5: any number of reasons. But again and again, like every 255 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 5: single little thing went right, until I got to the 256 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 5: point where I was just like, just enjoy don't second 257 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 5: guess it, don't wait for it to. 258 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 3: Not go right. 259 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 6: It's just going to keep going better and better. And 260 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 6: it did. 261 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: So glynnis when you were talking about the fear that 262 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: exists around a woman being alone, and I'll take it 263 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: a step further, a woman enjoying herself alone and experiencing 264 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: pleasure alone. 265 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 3: I mean, that is so real. I feel that so deeply. 266 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: And I'm a married woman, been married for thirteen years, 267 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: I have two kids, so you know, I I'm living 268 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: a very different life than the one that you describe 269 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: in the book. But I actually think that your story 270 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: is so resonant beyond the identity of singledom because in 271 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: the same way that living doesn't start whenever single theom ends. 272 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: Living can't end whenever marriage or partnership begins, right like, 273 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: we still have to keep living and having these experiences. 274 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: And that's what brought me to Paris over the past week, 275 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: and I experienced that fantasy Paris that you were talking about. 276 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: But the reality is that that fear and that guilt 277 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: and that shame around making those choices and choosing ourselves 278 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: still exists. So how do you circumvent that? Are you 279 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: vulnerable to the critics? Have you trained yourself to tune 280 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: them out? At this point? 281 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 5: I don't know if it's such a conscious decision. I 282 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 5: think part of it is age. I think you start 283 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 5: to age out of cultural storylines in a way that 284 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 5: I think can be punishing but can also be a 285 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 5: real source of strength because there are fewer expectations placed 286 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 5: on you. And why there are fewer expectations is the 287 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 5: problem in the sense of we don't value women over 288 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 5: a certain age for like a wide variety of reasons. 289 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 5: When the world is so disinterested in your well being. 290 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 5: Generally speaking, it's very hard for me to attach myself 291 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 5: to those expectations. And disappointments. So the idea that I 292 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 5: would turn around and be worried, like, oh, I should 293 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 5: apologize for this behavior or I should feel a shamed 294 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 5: for doing this, I think, well, you know you're not 295 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 5: doing really anything for me, so why should I take 296 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 5: up this brain space thinking about how you feel about this? 297 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: What are the conversations that you're having with your married 298 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: friends about the kind of empowered living that you exemplify 299 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: in this book. 300 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 5: Most of my friendships are now decades long, dating back 301 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 5: to high school or my early twenties, and so I 302 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 5: receive nothing but encouragement around my life or support or love, 303 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 5: and that's vice versus. So I think they're all really 304 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 5: energized by it and sort of love the idea of it, 305 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 5: And if they're not in a place where they can 306 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 5: participate in it, or even in a place where they 307 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 5: would ever want to participate in it, it's enjoyable to 308 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 5: note that it's possible and that someone's doing it. A 309 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 5: friend of mine said to me the other day that 310 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 5: after she read the book, she felt empowered, a very 311 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 5: strong word to apply to what's going to be a 312 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 5: very small gesture. But she was joking that someone asked 313 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 5: her if she wanted an ice coffee, and instead of 314 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 5: saying no, no, I'm fine, she said, yes, I would 315 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 5: like an ice coffee and I would like it with 316 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 5: almond milk. And she was like, I should be enjoying this. 317 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 5: I'm not going to be scared to ask for what 318 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 5: I need. So that so far has been sort of 319 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 5: a fun response. But most of my friends knew this 320 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 5: was happening as it was happening, because I was updating, 321 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 5: because I was going. 322 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 4: So I think it was fun for them to. 323 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: See it in the book form, the What's app texts 324 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: and everything. 325 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly, you say. 326 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 4: The Paris group chat is lit. 327 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, my parents group chatter. None of those women are married. 328 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 5: But when I came back, I sort of floated back 329 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 5: into New York and I was like, guys, let me 330 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 5: see what I've been doing. 331 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 4: Well to that point. 332 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 2: Do you think that French women approach aging, pleasure family 333 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 2: relationships differently than we do in the US. 334 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 5: When I'm in France, I feel like aging is more 335 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 5: what's the word I'm looking for? 336 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 6: They have a gentler relationship with aging. 337 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 5: That women are considered attractive as they age in ways. 338 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 6: That we aren't here. 339 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 5: I think they have a far more I think more 340 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 5: broadly speaking, they have a far more comfortable relationship with sex, 341 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 5: and that's European and not necessarily French, but that we 342 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 5: are still very puritan here in North America, and that 343 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 5: when you're there is not so rare to find older 344 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 5: women attractive, or that older women would consider themselves attractive. 345 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 5: And there's I notice anyway less procedures happening on faces. 346 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 5: But that's anecdotal and anecdotal from my New York experience 347 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 5: as well. 348 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 6: But I definitely think they have an easier time with it. 349 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: I would say I also was really inspired by just 350 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: how they live life. I mean, I would go to 351 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 1: dinner at ten pm and it would be a three 352 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: hour dinner, you know, And there's a slowness to life 353 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: there and a leisurelyiness that I found very appealing and 354 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 1: something that I hope I can bring back. 355 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 6: I agree with you one hundred percent. 356 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 5: And I also think France enjoyment is considered I would say, 357 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 5: like a human right. It's built into the legislature, essentially, 358 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 5: like how many days you can work, how many hours 359 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 5: when you retire. I always think a good example of 360 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 5: this is when you're unemployed. In France, you get free 361 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 5: access to museums, Like there is this sense that this 362 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 5: is like a part of life, and I think in 363 00:18:55,359 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 5: America pleasure has to be earned, like you have to financially, 364 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 5: but also through work, and that I think is what 365 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 5: we feel that when we get there is just like, oh, 366 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 5: this is just how the day goes. 367 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 6: You don't have to justify it. 368 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 4: We need to take a quick break, but we'll be 369 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 4: right back. Stay with us and we're back. 370 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 2: Glinnis, you have this theory that the female narrative is 371 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 2: based on the male orgasm. 372 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 4: Will you elaborate on that. 373 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 5: I feel like the narrative structure as we understand it 374 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 5: for everyone is based on the you know, the male orgasm, 375 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 5: which makes sense when you think men were primarily and 376 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 5: are still primarily the storytellers and that is the fundamental 377 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 5: experience of life. It's sort of, you know, it's a 378 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 5: three act structure. It's like set it up, tension, culmination, 379 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 5: the end, and it just drops off after that. 380 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 6: And I think that that happy ending. 381 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 5: I mean, you can talk about the phrase happy ending 382 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 5: if you want to, in terms of how it gets applied. 383 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 6: In a massage situation. Sometimes. 384 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 5: But I think because I've struggled so many times to 385 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 5: convince people that the life I'm living is deserving of 386 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 5: a narrative because it doesn't fill the classic narrative structure 387 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 5: that we understand. It is always the question of, well, 388 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 5: how do we know that you're happy? How do we 389 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 5: know that you've been a success if we can't cap 390 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 5: this off in ways that we're familiar with that I 391 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 5: really started rethinking narrative structure and thinking, you know, what 392 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 5: if it didn't resemble the male orgasm, and what if 393 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 5: it resembled a female orgasm, which is more like waves, 394 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 5: and some are bigger and some are smaller, and there's 395 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,919 Speaker 5: not necessarily like an end, you know, like it just 396 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 5: maybe it keeps going in ways and maybe the high 397 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 5: point is earlier and that at the very end. 398 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 2: First of all, I love that analogy. I think you're right, 399 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 2: and I love the imagery of waves. So much of 400 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 2: our life looks like that. You've mentioned sort of like 401 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 2: the the markers of success a few times, and I'm 402 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 2: wondering how you measure it in yourself. 403 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 5: Now, I would say I came out of that trip. 404 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 5: That trip I sort of think, in hindsight, was like 405 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 5: a doorway into middle age. I was forty six turning 406 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 5: forty seven, and I hope this is middle age, you know, 407 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 5: you hope that you have another forty years. But as like, 408 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 5: I came through it, and I came out of it 409 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 5: feeling so excited and powerful and just really feeling like 410 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 5: all the warnings I'd been told about age were a lie, 411 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 5: and until proven otherwise, I was going to assume it 412 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,719 Speaker 5: was all a lie. And so I think just maintaining 413 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 5: the sense of agency and optimism and trying to align 414 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 5: myself with my acts in a sense of like, how 415 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 5: do I exist in the world. Is that aligned with 416 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 5: the person I know I am to be because I'm 417 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 5: fully within myself. I mean, I hope everyone by the 418 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 5: time they get to fifty feels fully within themselves, and 419 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 5: I do. 420 00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 6: And so to maintain. 421 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 5: That sort of groundedness within myself and make sure that 422 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 5: you know, you keep going with. 423 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 6: That, which is not always easy. 424 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,479 Speaker 5: I think when you don't see any sense of yourself 425 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 5: reflected in the culture, it can be hard to believe 426 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 5: that you are enjoying yourself as much as you are 427 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 5: because you're not seeing a reflection of it, and you 428 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 5: really have to have full faith in your own experience 429 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 5: because there's very little to back it up. 430 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 6: And maintaining that I think is really important. 431 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: It's hard to believe that you had any doubters before 432 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: you published this book, because, oh God, I've been seeing 433 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: this book everywhere. I mean, you were on CBS Mornings, 434 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: you were on our friend Mary Jane Fahee's page. Everyone 435 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: is loving this book, and so I'm so thrilled for 436 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: you that you're getting this response. And there was this 437 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: line that really stuck out to me that you've written 438 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: that you said the thing women fantasize about the most 439 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 1: is freedom. That line really stopped me in my tracks. 440 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 1: What was on your mind when you wrote that? Was 441 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 1: there a chapter of your life that you were thinking about. 442 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 5: It was a friend of mine who was researching the 443 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 5: history of pornography and saying, one of the reasons it's 444 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 5: so difficult to make pornography that appeals to women is 445 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 5: because women don't fantasize about sex necessarily as their greatest fantasy. 446 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 5: They fantasize about freedom. A funny historical anecdote is when 447 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 5: the two wheel bike was sort of first emerged on 448 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 5: the scene at the turn of the last century. 449 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 6: It was huge for women. 450 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 5: It was the first time they were able to go 451 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 5: places is at a chaperone. Prior to that, the only 452 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 5: women who were able to sort of walk alone in 453 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 5: the streets were sex workers who needed a license from 454 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 5: the city, but otherwise you needed a chaperone. And so 455 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 5: women were able to travel by themselves. But the men 456 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 5: tried to push back on women on bikes by saying 457 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 5: that young women might inadvertently experience an orgasm from the 458 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 5: bicycle seat, and this was their argument for not allowing 459 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 5: women on bikes. And I that is where that line 460 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 5: comes from, because I thought, I always thought, like, oh, 461 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 5: the orgasm that women are going to experience on these 462 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,239 Speaker 5: bikes has nothing to do with the physical experience. It 463 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 5: has to do with like the absolute thrill of being 464 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 5: able to go somewhere by yourself when you want and 465 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 5: how you want, and that that was a possibility and 466 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 5: how thrilling that is. And in these five weeks really 467 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 5: for myself interrogating what that meant. And I think bigger 468 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 5: picture is this sense of and going back to turning 469 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 5: forty with this sense of, oh, you're not partners, you 470 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,959 Speaker 5: don't have children, you fit the sort of stereotype of 471 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 5: what we believe to be sort of a failure or 472 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 5: sad woman, and really understanding that I recognized all of 473 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 5: the opportunity available to me, and that I was a 474 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 5: person who was built for the life I was leading, 475 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 5: and that I was so grateful to have the opportunities 476 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 5: I had because I was a person who could take 477 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 5: advantage of them in every way, not just you know 478 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 5: where I was born, when I was born, the education 479 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 5: I had access to, but that I was able to 480 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 5: run with this in a way that felt completely true 481 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 5: to myself and how fortunate I am that that's possible, 482 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 5: because God knows, there's been play any of women who 483 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 5: are built to live the life I'm leading and never 484 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 5: had the opportunity to do so. So I think it 485 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 5: was sort of a culmination after this trip or during 486 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 5: the strip, of really recognizing that I in the exact 487 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 5: life I'm supposed to be in, and thank God I 488 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 5: had access to a life that so fits the person 489 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 5: I am so completely. 490 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 2: You've worked on some critically acclaimed shows. One that I 491 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 2: loved was Under the Influence, which looks at mommy influencer culture. 492 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 2: You worked on Wilder, which looked at the history of 493 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 2: Laura Ingles Wilder by actually traveling the US to some 494 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 2: of her iconic places. And what I noticed is that 495 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 2: both shows, as well as your books, they all focus 496 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 2: on women and the breath of womanhood. 497 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 4: And so I have a very general question. 498 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 2: For you, which is, where did your interest in womanhood 499 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 2: come from? 500 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 5: I'm a writer in the place I write from is 501 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 5: like a place of observation, and there came a point 502 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 5: where you just I wanted to see some version of 503 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 5: my life reflected in the world. And in the case 504 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 5: of Wilder, the Little housebooks were, you know, pivotal to me. 505 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 5: There were early books I read. It's when I decided 506 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 5: I wanted to be a writer. And when we say 507 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 5: in the podcast we pull out my little Diary from 508 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 5: when I was six and. 509 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 6: Being like, I want to be a writer, like Loring, 510 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 6: goes Wilder. 511 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 5: And so I think it's more this sense of I 512 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 5: crave at all times narratives that reflect not just how 513 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 5: I'm existing, but like, my life is not that unusual. 514 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 5: I can look to my left and right, and I 515 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 5: know the dozens of women living similarly to me at 516 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 5: my age and making similar choices, and it's just I 517 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 5: just happened to be one of the people who put 518 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 5: it to paper. But the fact it feels unusual is 519 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 5: always so enraging to me, because I'm like, why aren't 520 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 5: we seeing the movies and the television shows around this? 521 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 6: And so I'm always just like. 522 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 5: Digging around trying to throw some version of it up 523 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 5: there because I'm not seeing it. 524 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 6: It doesn't feel like I'm seeing it enough. 525 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: Well, Glennis, You've clearly struck a nerve with this book, 526 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: and I think that's because we all have this universal 527 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: desire to live an empowered life, as you are clearly living, 528 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: and I believe that it's never too late for women 529 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: to start living unapologetically. So when you look back on 530 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 1: all these rich life experiences that you've had, what is 531 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: the secret to liberation? 532 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 6: I'm not sure I conceive of my life in these terms. 533 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 6: Is maybe the challenge here. 534 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 5: I don't think that I'm not unusual, is the interesting thing. 535 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 5: When I look around, I don't actually find myself to 536 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 5: be that unique. I think it's a long process of 537 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 5: just of wanting to do what makes me feel in 538 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 5: charge and more powerful, and working relentlessly to align how 539 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 5: I make a living with how I want to exist 540 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 5: in the world, which is with as much agency and 541 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 5: latitude is possible. And I don't know that you know 542 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 5: that looks different for everyone, but it does feel to 543 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 5: me that at some point I stopped feeling shame around 544 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 5: any part of my existence. And that comes down to 545 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 5: I think there was a point where I thought, who's 546 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 5: benefiting from my feeling ashamed? 547 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 2: Right? 548 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:22,479 Speaker 3: Like? 549 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 5: I actually think that's a good question for everyone to 550 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 5: ask themselves if you're feeling shame in a certain experience 551 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 5: or in a certain decision, like who benefits from that shame? 552 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 6: Do you benefit from it? 553 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 5: If there's a general sense of like, oh goodness, she's 554 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 5: doing what she wants, who benefits from you feeling bad 555 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,959 Speaker 5: about that? Because usually not anyone who's opinion you're interested in. 556 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 2: I would argue, is there a word that does resonate 557 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 2: for you? Like I've heard people use the word untamed? 558 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,479 Speaker 2: You said liberation doesn't totally hit like what feels right 559 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 2: for you? 560 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 5: I think agency is a word that I tend to 561 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 5: come back to a lot. I'm able to make choices 562 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 5: for myself and I'm not scared to make them, and. 563 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 6: That feels good. That feels successful to me. 564 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 4: I love that we'll go with agency. 565 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 2: Then, yeah, Glennis, thank you so much for joining us. 566 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 6: Thank you both for having me. 567 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 3: Thank you, Glennis. 568 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 2: Glennis McNichol is a writer and the author of I'm 569 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 2: Mostly Here to enjoy Myself. 570 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 4: You can find it wherever you get your books. 571 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're headed to the 572 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: Olympics with American breaker Sonny Choi. She's currently training to 573 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: compete in break dancing at this summer's Paris Olympics. 574 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 2: Listen and follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app, 575 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 576 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 3: I'm Simone Boye. 577 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: You can find me at Simone Voice on Instagram and TikTok. 578 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 2: I'm Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok. 579 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 4: That's ro Ba. 580 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 3: Y see you tomorrow, folks. 581 00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: Keep looking on the bright side.