WEBVTT - A Pike County Roundtable 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.920 The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:09.240 themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.160 because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.400 He just walked around shot all the black people. The 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.440 cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.160 out how to go on and how to compete. I 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.840 wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:28.640 Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.720 or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.800 I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.200 it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.560 a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.040 to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:53.239 Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:58.080 this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:00.560 I would call him and I would say, I know 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.080 you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.440 Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:11.720 get your podcasts. On how Rude Tanta Ritos, the Full 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:15.640 House Rewatch podcast, join characters Stephanie Tanner and Kimmy Gibler, 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:18.920 also known as actresses Jody Sweeten and Andrea Barber, as 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:22.600 they relive every episode of your favorite Friday night comfort show. 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:26.240 We spent our entire childhoods on a little show called Pullhouse, 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:29.920 playing frenemies but becoming besties whenever the cameras weren't rolling, 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:32.959 and now thirty five years later, it's our biggest adventure yet. 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:36.160 Listen to How Rude Tanta Ritos on the iHeartRadio app, 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:40.480 Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:42.480 are you ready for a brand new podcast that you 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:45.399 had no idea existed. I'm Rory Scoville and I'm Daniel 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:47.920 van Kirk and it's the pen Pals Podcast. Maybe you've 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:49.800 had a pen pal before, where you have two of 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:52.720 them right now. You send us your letters about anything 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:54.880 going on in your life. Gotta mean Grandma, need a 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:57.440 new haircut, whatever it is, send it to us, and 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:00.160 we have guests like Will Ferrell, Andy Samberg, Rose Burn, 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.400 Brett Goldstein, and Mandy Moore. Listen to the Penpals podcast 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:06.559 on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:11.080 Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:15.440 the Piketon Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios, 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:20.760 Season two, Episode eight, Expert Roundtable. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:24.959 television producer at Katie Studios, with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:28.639 On June twenty one, twenty twenty one, accused brother George 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.120 Wagner the fourth appeared in court for a pre trial 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:38.720 hearing in the Roden murder case. Five hearing long then 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:43.600 and a number of defense pre trial motions. It was 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:46.440 the first full hearing to take place in George's younger brother, 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:49.320 Jake Wagner, played guilty to killing five of the eight 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.400 slain members of the Roden family in April twenty sixteen, 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:55.440 and it was Jake's plea and what he potentially told 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:58.919 authorities that became the defense's primary focus during these proceedings. 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:01.800 I think we need more than sixty days to investigate 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:05.200 whatever we learned Jake's profit because we have not been 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:07.840 provided at even though it's been available for two longs, 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:11.000 we have not received that we are entitled to that 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.120 under Criminal Rules sixteen. And once we get it, and 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:18.280 I understand it's more than ten hours of recording statements. 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:20.480 So once we get that, we need an adequate amount 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:23.519 of time to investigate whatever we need to investigate, and 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:28.160 will certainly comply with our discovery outligations the state degree 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:31.840 to work towards providing George Wagner's attorneys with Jake's confession. 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:35.080 The court also scheduled George's next motion hearing to take 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:39.360 place on September thirteenth. But before court was dismissed, Judge 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.800 Randy Dearing provided one critical piece of information for George 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:45.480 moving forward. We have said a trial date in this 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:53.640 case for four with a cut brother. George Wagner said 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.160 to begin trial on April fourth, twenty twenty two. There 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:58.840 will surely be a lot to cover moving forward. But 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:02.000 just a few days before or George Wagner's most recent hearing, 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:05.000 we got some of our regular contributors together for discussion, 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:09.000 Reporters Angeennette Levy and Jodi Barr, and criminal forensic expert 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:11.920 Joseph Morgan. We covered a range of topics that spanned 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:14.800 their years covering the Roden murder case. We started out 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:16.720 with a talk about some of the details they had 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.320 heard leading up to George Wagner's tile last week and 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:22.440 what they expected the outcome to be. Angeanette Leavey started 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:26.160 us off some documents filed by George the Fourth's lawyers, 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:30.520 saying they still haven't received Jake's statements to law enforcement, 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.120 and they were led to believe that Jake's interviews were 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:37.560 between ten and eighteen hours, So they subpoenaed Greg Myers, 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:42.839 who is the lead counsel for Jake, and they filed 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:47.800 emotion demanding that the additional discovery, including Jake's interviews, be 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:51.599 turned over. So we don't know the veracity of his 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:55.160 statements or how truthful they are, other than he allegedly 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:58.719 led them to the vehicle used and the weapons used. 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:01.839 So I mean he did quite a bit of talking. Jody. 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:05.040 How rare is it for one attorney's to subpoena another attorney. 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:07.839 I don't recall a specific instance of that, but I 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:10.200 mean that that is a clear indication that one side 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:12.720 does not feel that they are getting the information they 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:16.200 need to defend their clients. So I think it's worth 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:19.480 a deeper look at. You know, why either the state 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.080 or Jake's own attorneys are not playing ball here. That's 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.359 been to complaint the entire time that defense attorneys have 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:30.720 complained consistently that they're not getting material as quickly as 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:32.800 they would like. And you would think they would just 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:35.320 make a copy and send it over. Yeah, I mean, 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:37.960 and in this one, I would venture a guess that 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:41.960 it was at least audio recorded, perhaps if not video recorded, 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:44.560 this statement that Jake gave. So, I mean, you know, 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:46.880 they need to produce this. I don't know how you 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:50.720 know these three defense teams can adequately prepare for trial 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:54.520 when there's this huge evidence dumped from Jake Wagner's mouth 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:57.880 that apparently they don't have access to. Right now, you've 0:05:57.920 --> 0:05:59.479 got one of the four saying I did it. I 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:01.960 did it, And you know what did he do exactly? 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:03.800 We didn't hear it in court. You know, maybe he 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:07.200 told that story in the statements, but ten to eighteen 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:09.120 hours it's a heck of a long time to have 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:11.799 a conversation cover a lot of ground in that time. 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:15.839 So I had a quote normal pre trial, what happens? 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:19.720 What's the broad strokes? They usually ask the defendant if 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:22.160 they're happy with their lawyer, and they're meeting with their 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:25.960 lawyer enough, and they discussed the pace of discovery and 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:28.320 what have you. But I feel like in this case, 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:31.480 nothing ever happens. I mean, they go into chambers for 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:33.760 an hour and then they come out and put something 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.920 on the record because these are death penalty cases. Now 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.760 they're really not death penalty cases because they've taken that 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:43.520 off the table. If Jake testifies against everyone, they typically 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:46.800 are pretty uneventful. We've had some sparks fly in some 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:49.440 of the motions hearings, but I haven't. You know, these 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:52.200 pre trials tend to be pretty dry. Yeah, I thought 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:55.919 that too until what was at April the twenty first 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:59.120 of this year, the night before Jake Wagner played guilty. 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:02.880 I was told some family members that BCI reached out 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:05.240 and said, you want to be at the courthouse tomorrow 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:07.680 in Pike County. And then that was just docketed as 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:10.560 a pre trial hearing and there was no indication that 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.200 Jake Wagner would be pleading guilty other than the state 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:16.360 calling the family and suggesting they'd be there. So that 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:19.680 actually turned into the end of his prosecution. So, man, 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:21.920 I think if you get a call from the family 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:24.280 any one of these pre trials, that just seemed like 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.040 a routine, you know, where are we in this prosecution 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:29.080 and does everybody have what they need so we can 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:30.840 try this thing? Man, I think you got to be 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:33.440 careful in this case. You don't know what may come next. 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:36.240 I mean, Jake, was I think a complete surprise to everybody, 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.000 even the family. What were your thoughts on that day, Joseph? 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:41.400 None of us were expecting this. Do you remember we 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:43.640 were all texting between one another, staying one and the 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.520 hell's going on? Because this scene dropped like thunder out 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:48.960 of the heavens and we never saw it coming. I 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:52.120 didn't certainly, I had no idea that this was about 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:54.000 to happen. So you could knock me over with a 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:57.080 feather that day. There is a distinct possibility that he 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.520 could come in and plead. I don't think he's going 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:01.800 to plead if he was going to play guilty, I 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.200 don't think his lawyer would be like filing a demand 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:07.240 for discovery in a trial date. So just my opinion. 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:09.120 But what do I know, Probably get out there and 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:12.480 something crazy you'll happen. It's the Pike Ti massacre. Who knows. 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:18.440 You never know where this is going next. Covering this story, 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:21.680 who did you guys first think? Didn't I thought it 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:23.840 could have been related to the pot, you know, the 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:27.160 marijuana growing operation. But I had been told early on 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:30.800 by some law enforcement sources, federal law enforcement sources, that 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:33.960 the cartel thing wasn't true because they ran that down 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:37.679 because of the level of violence that was involved in it, 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:41.000 and it didn't seem like messaging so much to me. 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:44.480 As you would see with an organized crime hit, there's 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:48.400 generally something that will be left that is substantial, you know, 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:50.680 the elements that we've talked about quite a bit relative 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:54.400 to overkill in cases I've seen and then you displayed 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:58.640 before us. It seemed very intimate to me, very very intimate, 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:02.360 and cartel's their money, but they're not intimate. Also with 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:06.760 intimacy comes that level of familiarity and the fact that 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.640 in this tight little space, you know, and it is 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:11.960 a tight little space when you travel down that road, 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.280 you have these locations where all these people inhabited, these 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:18.920 very specific pinpoint locations, and there's other structures and other 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.160 families around that area. They knew where there were going. 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:25.520 There were no mistakes. Many times, if somebody's not familiar 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:26.800 with an area and they're going to go out and 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:29.319 kill somebody, you'll have mistakes along the way, but they 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:33.760 had pinpointed four separate locations, and that again goes back. 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:38.320 I think there's connectivity with that seed of intimacy. The 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:40.760 whole thing about the dog's not barking, because they said 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:43.880 those dogs would have. That was just very strange. We 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:46.000 knew there was a baby, We knew there was a child, 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:48.439 you know, we knew about the little girl, and we 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:50.760 knew about the Wagoners. But I didn't hear the Wagner 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:55.880 name and any association with the murders or suspected association 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:59.320 until May of twenty seventeen, and then Jody was at 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:02.360 your experience as well. I got over there heavily in 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:05.640 June July, right after the murders, and I mean people 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.080 you talk with, even the family members, had already and 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:10.679 I don't know what the reasons were, but it had 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:14.480 already suspected something to do with the Wagners. I mean 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.480 they had already floated, you know, the Wagner farm out 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.439 as being the base of operations for this family. There 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:23.640 was also a drug case in Adams County, which is 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.600 just right next door to Pike, that the rumor Mill 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:29.520 believed could have been linked you know, to the Wagoners, 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:32.280 the Wagner farm, or at least you know what happened 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:34.800 over as far as the drug angle that ended up 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:38.000 not being connected in the end, or as far as 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:39.880 we know it's not connected. But you know, we went 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.160 as far as you know, covering a court hearing over 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:45.680 there for someone who had a substantial amount of drugs 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:48.760 on them. So anyway, there there was a lot swirling around. 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:51.280 But the Wagner name. We heard that early on that 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:54.640 some people suspected that they were somehow involved. But you know, 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:56.400 back then, it's like, how do you even where do 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:59.000 you start on something like that? I went out past that, 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:01.319 you know, the Flying w farm. You try to dig 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:04.439 in the property records and background these people, and first off, 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.439 there wasn't a lot to background with these folks. And secondly, 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:10.040 it's just you know, what you did find didn't scream 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.560 mass murderers. I didn't see anything there that would cause 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:16.400 me to continue digging. It was nothing that I found, 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:19.160 at least in looking into the Wagner family that I 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:21.680 went okay there to smoking gun. The rumors are true. 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.520 It's just you collected it as information, you try to 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:26.560 vet it. You get nowhere and you just move on. 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:30.200 And then Andrewette, yeah, I'm curious your perspective, and starting 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.760 to develop an idea of them. I started looking into them, 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.520 and you know, when you see that Jake and George 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.040 and the house and the mom lived there with them, 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:41.280 I was kind of like, oh, that's weird. And then 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:44.160 I remember being out there and hearing a little bit about, 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:48.040 you know, how they lived, and learning more about George's 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:51.240 wife now ex wife. It all started to kind of 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:55.200 sound very interesting. So I remember specifically going up to 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:57.120 the Flying w and you go up there and it's 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:00.360 like this steep I would say, it's like a R 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:04.240 seventy degree kind of like driveway, gravel driveway, and driving 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.160 up there and being basically told to get off the property, 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.319 you know, just seeing if they wanted to comment. So 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:11.400 it was a little creepy, a little scary. I mean, 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:13.520 it's a beautiful property, don't get me wrong, But when 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:16.079 your cell phone doesn't work and you're driving up somewhere 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:19.000 to go try to talk to somebody and somebody you know, 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:21.320 basically comes out and tells you to get out of there, 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:23.680 I felt a little weird. You know. Obviously, it wasn't 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:26.800 very welcoming. I started digging around on Facebook quite a 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.640 bit too, and it didn't seem like on the surface 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:33.000 that you would suspect anything. You know, the mom Angela 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:36.360 was running some type of little organic farm type thing 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:39.640 at that Peterson Road house. You know, she was trying 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:42.520 to breed animals and sell them, and she had pictures 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.160 of the children on there on Facebook. So, you know, 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:48.080 at first it didn't seem weird. But then I contacted 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:49.760 her and said, look, you know, I'd love to do 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.080 an interview with you. And then some of the things 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:54.880 Angela Wagner said to me on Facebook messenger kind of 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:57.760 made me feel a little uncomfortable, the way she was 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.360 trying to dictate what I said, what I would be 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:05.320 reporting about our conversations on Facebook messenger. She said, you 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:07.640 know you are not to report any of this what 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:10.400 I said. You know, I do not give you permission 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:13.200 to report anything. I just told you. She said that 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:19.160 she was being slander she and her family. Do you 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:22.240 think Jake is lying about being personally responsible for five 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:24.400 of the eight? I don't know what his incentive to 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:26.800 lie about that is. I mean, is he that afraid 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:30.120 of the death penalty? The economics of that equation just 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:32.680 does not make sense to me. Where he would openly 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:36.680 confess to murdering five people. Probably the worst act you 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:39.640 could commit as a human is taking the life of another, 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.000 and he did that five times over. I think we 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:44.120 got a good idea of what happened here, and Jake 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.960 Wagner told his story in court, and he took the 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:49.920 guilty plea and said he did it, you know, five 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:51.880 of the eight. You know. I think that's the best 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:54.880 shot we've had so far at some confirmation of really 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:58.200 peeling this story back. I think the world wants to 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.080 know what happened when they woke up that morning, put 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:03.400 this plan in place, Who went where, who did what? 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:05.920 As I think all of us have done since April 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:09.280 twenty sixteen when this happened, as you roll around these 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:13.160 scenarios in your mind, trying to figure out, first off, 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:16.040 what's the mindset of someone to pull this off and 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.080 then to just run free for what two years afterward 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:21.280 and you live with this every day of your life. 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:23.800 It may have been passion driven, and it was certainly 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:26.680 anger driven, but it wasn't like somebody just suddenly flew 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.520 off the handle and decided to go and visit hell 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.640 down upon the roads. This is something that took planning, 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:37.120 in my estimation at least, So you began thinking this confederacy. 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:40.120 What do you think about when you're moving from someplace 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:43.280 like the last house that you hit with multiple people 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:45.080 in it, and then you drive out to Kenni's house 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:48.360 at some distance away. Now, what does that conversation consist of? 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:50.520 You talk about what music you're gonna listen to on 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.080 the radio and talk about who's going to handle what. 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:55.760 I don't know who pulled the trigger. Jake said he 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:59.400 killed five of them. But I can't imagine, to Jody's point, 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:01.320 why in the world that man would say that he'd 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:03.640 killed five people in an open court and he didn't 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.360 do it. So that leaves us with the other three 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:08.800 who would do this and do it in the presence 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:11.120 of these babies and just leave them. And I can 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:14.000 only imagine having walled around about in that blood there. 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.000 I don't know. It leaves me dumbfounded, and that's hard 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:22.720 to do. Hannah Gilly, she was attacked on the only 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.720 second to Chris Roden. She was shot this woman five 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:30.560 times in the face, which is an unbelievable overkill. So 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:34.120 the thought is a why? And then also is it 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.120 possible it would be a connection or rage because her 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:42.360 brother Charlie Gilly is the father of Hannah Roden's new baby. 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.560 That would be my suspicion. But I really don't know 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:48.440 for sure. I mean, I would just be speculating because 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:50.760 of that connection. There's a whole lot more going on. 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:53.720 And you know, Hannah Gilly shot five times in the face. 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:55.520 It's you know, you're looking at the angle. Well, is 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:58.960 that a message being sent? One shot is a message? 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:00.880 You know? Five? I don't know what you're doing at 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:03.120 that point. Jay Wagner at least set out with a 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:05.800 plan that night to do what he did to five 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:07.880 of the eight you know who killed the other three? 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.880 You know. I I just hope we all get these answers. 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:13.320 Now that springs us to another point. I'm going to 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:16.240 reflect back to an old, old case real quick that 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:19.440 many people will be aware of and absolutely horrendous, And 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.840 it's Dennis Rader with BTK killing now in Kansas. He 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:26.280 stood up and he said, I will, in fact admit 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.160 to everything I've done since I don't know, nineteen seventy 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:31.760 three or seventy four. Winner it was he started this 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:35.920 horrific murder scree, his serial killings. They put this one 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:39.600 caveat in there. They said, okay, that's fine, we'll take 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.640 death off the table, and you have to stand in 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:45.320 court and you have to stand and deliver. At this moment, 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:48.520 Tom and he was compelled to what is framed as 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:51.280 an elocution. He had to stand there, and it's one 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.760 of the most chilling things you've ever seen, because this 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.480 guy's a psychopath. And so when you listen to him 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:00.240 give the details behind these horrific crimes he participated in, 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:03.280 it really makes you wonder if you want this thing 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.560 that people talk about. They frames closure because it's a 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:10.080 horror show. But in this particular case, if this is 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:12.320 the route you're going to go, I think that these 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:15.679 individuals should be compelled to allocute. Let's think about these 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.719 babies that are left behind. These children. Don't just think 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:20.760 they're gonna one an explanation at some point in time. 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:22.919 I mean, yeah, I know the community does, but what 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:25.720 about these kids. Let's just assume that they do get 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:28.040 convictions on all fronts here, what do you do? You 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:29.880 push them off into a deep dark hole and they're 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:32.480 never to be heard from. Again, and we'll never hear 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:36.280 anything else about this. And people keep talking about, well, 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:39.359 we'll never hear the true story because the deal was 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:43.639 cut and they weren't compelled the perpetrators, if it is 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:47.080 them and they are so convicted, they were never compelled 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:49.439 to say, Okay, this is what happened, this is how 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:51.840 the planning took place, and this is what we did 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:56.159 that night. And those questions will always exist. And on 0:17:56.800 --> 0:18:00.560 a broader note, you're always going to have, you know, 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:03.480 people sitting in their basement with tenfold hats on saying well, 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:07.600 it wasn't them. You know, there'll be crazy conspiracy theories. 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.320 It'll be created for years and years to come. But 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:19.080 what actually happened that night. We're going to take a 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:27.440 quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. Oh. 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:31.600 I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called the Girlfriends. 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:34.680 Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:38.720 of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:45.080 He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:49.520 he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:53.480 He really wasn't. He shouted, and to the point she 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:58.679 went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:02.920 the one time somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:06.160 us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:08.880 to pay for his crime. He needed to be put 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:11.000 to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:12.960 him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:15.879 him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:19.200 I will always hound you and haunt you. You can 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:23.560 listen to the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:26.719 or wherever you get your podcasts. In our twenty two 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:28.760 years of friendship, Andy, this has to be the most 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:31.960 bizarre thing we've ever done. 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