Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording
Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters
Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives.
Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The
Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure
Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I
Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season.
Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and
Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find
Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt
Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the
Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality,
Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious.
Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know
Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl
Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. On how Rude Tanta Ritos, the Full
Speaker 1: House Rewatch podcast, join characters Stephanie Tanner and Kimmy Gibler,
Speaker 1: also known as actresses Jody Sweeten and Andrea Barber, as
Speaker 1: they relive every episode of your favorite Friday night comfort show.
Speaker 1: We spent our entire childhoods on a little show called Pullhouse,
Speaker 1: playing frenemies but becoming besties whenever the cameras weren't rolling,
Speaker 1: and now thirty five years later, it's our biggest adventure yet.
Speaker 1: Listen to How Rude Tanta Ritos on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody,
Speaker 1: are you ready for a brand new podcast that you
Speaker 1: had no idea existed. I'm Rory Scoville and I'm Daniel
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Speaker 1: on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to
Speaker 1: the Piketon Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios,
Speaker 1: Season two, Episode eight, Expert Roundtable. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a
Speaker 1: television producer at Katie Studios, with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane.
Speaker 1: On June twenty one, twenty twenty one, accused brother George
Speaker 1: Wagner the fourth appeared in court for a pre trial
Speaker 1: hearing in the Roden murder case. Five hearing long then
Speaker 1: and a number of defense pre trial motions. It was
Speaker 1: the first full hearing to take place in George's younger brother,
Speaker 1: Jake Wagner, played guilty to killing five of the eight
Speaker 1: slain members of the Roden family in April twenty sixteen,
Speaker 1: and it was Jake's plea and what he potentially told
Speaker 1: authorities that became the defense's primary focus during these proceedings.
Speaker 1: I think we need more than sixty days to investigate
Speaker 1: whatever we learned Jake's profit because we have not been
Speaker 1: provided at even though it's been available for two longs,
Speaker 1: we have not received that we are entitled to that
Speaker 1: under Criminal Rules sixteen. And once we get it, and
Speaker 1: I understand it's more than ten hours of recording statements.
Speaker 1: So once we get that, we need an adequate amount
Speaker 1: of time to investigate whatever we need to investigate, and
Speaker 1: will certainly comply with our discovery outligations the state degree
Speaker 1: to work towards providing George Wagner's attorneys with Jake's confession.
Speaker 1: The court also scheduled George's next motion hearing to take
Speaker 1: place on September thirteenth. But before court was dismissed, Judge
Speaker 1: Randy Dearing provided one critical piece of information for George
Speaker 1: moving forward. We have said a trial date in this
Speaker 1: case for four with a cut brother. George Wagner said
Speaker 1: to begin trial on April fourth, twenty twenty two. There
Speaker 1: will surely be a lot to cover moving forward. But
Speaker 1: just a few days before or George Wagner's most recent hearing,
Speaker 1: we got some of our regular contributors together for discussion,
Speaker 1: Reporters Angeennette Levy and Jodi Barr, and criminal forensic expert
Speaker 1: Joseph Morgan. We covered a range of topics that spanned
Speaker 1: their years covering the Roden murder case. We started out
Speaker 1: with a talk about some of the details they had
Speaker 1: heard leading up to George Wagner's tile last week and
Speaker 1: what they expected the outcome to be. Angeanette Leavey started
Speaker 1: us off some documents filed by George the Fourth's lawyers,
Speaker 1: saying they still haven't received Jake's statements to law enforcement,
Speaker 1: and they were led to believe that Jake's interviews were
Speaker 1: between ten and eighteen hours, So they subpoenaed Greg Myers,
Speaker 1: who is the lead counsel for Jake, and they filed
Speaker 1: emotion demanding that the additional discovery, including Jake's interviews, be
Speaker 1: turned over. So we don't know the veracity of his
Speaker 1: statements or how truthful they are, other than he allegedly
Speaker 1: led them to the vehicle used and the weapons used.
Speaker 1: So I mean he did quite a bit of talking. Jody.
Speaker 1: How rare is it for one attorney's to subpoena another attorney.
Speaker 1: I don't recall a specific instance of that, but I
Speaker 1: mean that that is a clear indication that one side
Speaker 1: does not feel that they are getting the information they
Speaker 1: need to defend their clients. So I think it's worth
Speaker 1: a deeper look at. You know, why either the state
Speaker 1: or Jake's own attorneys are not playing ball here. That's
Speaker 1: been to complaint the entire time that defense attorneys have
Speaker 1: complained consistently that they're not getting material as quickly as
Speaker 1: they would like. And you would think they would just
Speaker 1: make a copy and send it over. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: and in this one, I would venture a guess that
Speaker 1: it was at least audio recorded, perhaps if not video recorded,
Speaker 1: this statement that Jake gave. So, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: they need to produce this. I don't know how you
Speaker 1: know these three defense teams can adequately prepare for trial
Speaker 1: when there's this huge evidence dumped from Jake Wagner's mouth
Speaker 1: that apparently they don't have access to. Right now, you've
Speaker 1: got one of the four saying I did it. I
Speaker 1: did it, And you know what did he do exactly?
Speaker 1: We didn't hear it in court. You know, maybe he
Speaker 1: told that story in the statements, but ten to eighteen
Speaker 1: hours it's a heck of a long time to have
Speaker 1: a conversation cover a lot of ground in that time.
Speaker 1: So I had a quote normal pre trial, what happens?
Speaker 1: What's the broad strokes? They usually ask the defendant if
Speaker 1: they're happy with their lawyer, and they're meeting with their
Speaker 1: lawyer enough, and they discussed the pace of discovery and
Speaker 1: what have you. But I feel like in this case,
Speaker 1: nothing ever happens. I mean, they go into chambers for
Speaker 1: an hour and then they come out and put something
Speaker 1: on the record because these are death penalty cases. Now
Speaker 1: they're really not death penalty cases because they've taken that
Speaker 1: off the table. If Jake testifies against everyone, they typically
Speaker 1: are pretty uneventful. We've had some sparks fly in some
Speaker 1: of the motions hearings, but I haven't. You know, these
Speaker 1: pre trials tend to be pretty dry. Yeah, I thought
Speaker 1: that too until what was at April the twenty first
Speaker 1: of this year, the night before Jake Wagner played guilty.
Speaker 1: I was told some family members that BCI reached out
Speaker 1: and said, you want to be at the courthouse tomorrow
Speaker 1: in Pike County. And then that was just docketed as
Speaker 1: a pre trial hearing and there was no indication that
Speaker 1: Jake Wagner would be pleading guilty other than the state
Speaker 1: calling the family and suggesting they'd be there. So that
Speaker 1: actually turned into the end of his prosecution. So, man,
Speaker 1: I think if you get a call from the family
Speaker 1: any one of these pre trials, that just seemed like
Speaker 1: a routine, you know, where are we in this prosecution
Speaker 1: and does everybody have what they need so we can
Speaker 1: try this thing? Man, I think you got to be
Speaker 1: careful in this case. You don't know what may come next.
Speaker 1: I mean, Jake, was I think a complete surprise to everybody,
Speaker 1: even the family. What were your thoughts on that day, Joseph?
Speaker 1: None of us were expecting this. Do you remember we
Speaker 1: were all texting between one another, staying one and the
Speaker 1: hell's going on? Because this scene dropped like thunder out
Speaker 1: of the heavens and we never saw it coming. I
Speaker 1: didn't certainly, I had no idea that this was about
Speaker 1: to happen. So you could knock me over with a
Speaker 1: feather that day. There is a distinct possibility that he
Speaker 1: could come in and plead. I don't think he's going
Speaker 1: to plead if he was going to play guilty, I
Speaker 1: don't think his lawyer would be like filing a demand
Speaker 1: for discovery in a trial date. So just my opinion.
Speaker 1: But what do I know, Probably get out there and
Speaker 1: something crazy you'll happen. It's the Pike Ti massacre. Who knows.
Speaker 1: You never know where this is going next. Covering this story,
Speaker 1: who did you guys first think? Didn't I thought it
Speaker 1: could have been related to the pot, you know, the
Speaker 1: marijuana growing operation. But I had been told early on
Speaker 1: by some law enforcement sources, federal law enforcement sources, that
Speaker 1: the cartel thing wasn't true because they ran that down
Speaker 1: because of the level of violence that was involved in it,
Speaker 1: and it didn't seem like messaging so much to me.
Speaker 1: As you would see with an organized crime hit, there's
Speaker 1: generally something that will be left that is substantial, you know,
Speaker 1: the elements that we've talked about quite a bit relative
Speaker 1: to overkill in cases I've seen and then you displayed
Speaker 1: before us. It seemed very intimate to me, very very intimate,
Speaker 1: and cartel's their money, but they're not intimate. Also with
Speaker 1: intimacy comes that level of familiarity and the fact that
Speaker 1: in this tight little space, you know, and it is
Speaker 1: a tight little space when you travel down that road,
Speaker 1: you have these locations where all these people inhabited, these
Speaker 1: very specific pinpoint locations, and there's other structures and other
Speaker 1: families around that area. They knew where there were going.
Speaker 1: There were no mistakes. Many times, if somebody's not familiar
Speaker 1: with an area and they're going to go out and
Speaker 1: kill somebody, you'll have mistakes along the way, but they
Speaker 1: had pinpointed four separate locations, and that again goes back.
Speaker 1: I think there's connectivity with that seed of intimacy. The
Speaker 1: whole thing about the dog's not barking, because they said
Speaker 1: those dogs would have. That was just very strange. We
Speaker 1: knew there was a baby, We knew there was a child,
Speaker 1: you know, we knew about the little girl, and we
Speaker 1: knew about the Wagoners. But I didn't hear the Wagner
Speaker 1: name and any association with the murders or suspected association
Speaker 1: until May of twenty seventeen, and then Jody was at
Speaker 1: your experience as well. I got over there heavily in
Speaker 1: June July, right after the murders, and I mean people
Speaker 1: you talk with, even the family members, had already and
Speaker 1: I don't know what the reasons were, but it had
Speaker 1: already suspected something to do with the Wagners. I mean
Speaker 1: they had already floated, you know, the Wagner farm out
Speaker 1: as being the base of operations for this family. There
Speaker 1: was also a drug case in Adams County, which is
Speaker 1: just right next door to Pike, that the rumor Mill
Speaker 1: believed could have been linked you know, to the Wagoners,
Speaker 1: the Wagner farm, or at least you know what happened
Speaker 1: over as far as the drug angle that ended up
Speaker 1: not being connected in the end, or as far as
Speaker 1: we know it's not connected. But you know, we went
Speaker 1: as far as you know, covering a court hearing over
Speaker 1: there for someone who had a substantial amount of drugs
Speaker 1: on them. So anyway, there there was a lot swirling around.
Speaker 1: But the Wagner name. We heard that early on that
Speaker 1: some people suspected that they were somehow involved. But you know,
Speaker 1: back then, it's like, how do you even where do
Speaker 1: you start on something like that? I went out past that,
Speaker 1: you know, the Flying w farm. You try to dig
Speaker 1: in the property records and background these people, and first off,
Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot to background with these folks. And secondly,
Speaker 1: it's just you know, what you did find didn't scream
Speaker 1: mass murderers. I didn't see anything there that would cause
Speaker 1: me to continue digging. It was nothing that I found,
Speaker 1: at least in looking into the Wagner family that I
Speaker 1: went okay there to smoking gun. The rumors are true.
Speaker 1: It's just you collected it as information, you try to
Speaker 1: vet it. You get nowhere and you just move on.
Speaker 1: And then Andrewette, yeah, I'm curious your perspective, and starting
Speaker 1: to develop an idea of them. I started looking into them,
Speaker 1: and you know, when you see that Jake and George
Speaker 1: and the house and the mom lived there with them,
Speaker 1: I was kind of like, oh, that's weird. And then
Speaker 1: I remember being out there and hearing a little bit about,
Speaker 1: you know, how they lived, and learning more about George's
Speaker 1: wife now ex wife. It all started to kind of
Speaker 1: sound very interesting. So I remember specifically going up to
Speaker 1: the Flying w and you go up there and it's
Speaker 1: like this steep I would say, it's like a R
Speaker 1: seventy degree kind of like driveway, gravel driveway, and driving
Speaker 1: up there and being basically told to get off the property,
Speaker 1: you know, just seeing if they wanted to comment. So
Speaker 1: it was a little creepy, a little scary. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful property, don't get me wrong, But when
Speaker 1: your cell phone doesn't work and you're driving up somewhere
Speaker 1: to go try to talk to somebody and somebody you know,
Speaker 1: basically comes out and tells you to get out of there,
Speaker 1: I felt a little weird. You know. Obviously, it wasn't
Speaker 1: very welcoming. I started digging around on Facebook quite a
Speaker 1: bit too, and it didn't seem like on the surface
Speaker 1: that you would suspect anything. You know, the mom Angela
Speaker 1: was running some type of little organic farm type thing
Speaker 1: at that Peterson Road house. You know, she was trying
Speaker 1: to breed animals and sell them, and she had pictures
Speaker 1: of the children on there on Facebook. So, you know,
Speaker 1: at first it didn't seem weird. But then I contacted
Speaker 1: her and said, look, you know, I'd love to do
Speaker 1: an interview with you. And then some of the things
Speaker 1: Angela Wagner said to me on Facebook messenger kind of
Speaker 1: made me feel a little uncomfortable, the way she was
Speaker 1: trying to dictate what I said, what I would be
Speaker 1: reporting about our conversations on Facebook messenger. She said, you
Speaker 1: know you are not to report any of this what
Speaker 1: I said. You know, I do not give you permission
Speaker 1: to report anything. I just told you. She said that
Speaker 1: she was being slander she and her family. Do you
Speaker 1: think Jake is lying about being personally responsible for five
Speaker 1: of the eight? I don't know what his incentive to
Speaker 1: lie about that is. I mean, is he that afraid
Speaker 1: of the death penalty? The economics of that equation just
Speaker 1: does not make sense to me. Where he would openly
Speaker 1: confess to murdering five people. Probably the worst act you
Speaker 1: could commit as a human is taking the life of another,
Speaker 1: and he did that five times over. I think we
Speaker 1: got a good idea of what happened here, and Jake
Speaker 1: Wagner told his story in court, and he took the
Speaker 1: guilty plea and said he did it, you know, five
Speaker 1: of the eight. You know. I think that's the best
Speaker 1: shot we've had so far at some confirmation of really
Speaker 1: peeling this story back. I think the world wants to
Speaker 1: know what happened when they woke up that morning, put
Speaker 1: this plan in place, Who went where, who did what?
Speaker 1: As I think all of us have done since April
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen when this happened, as you roll around these
Speaker 1: scenarios in your mind, trying to figure out, first off,
Speaker 1: what's the mindset of someone to pull this off and
Speaker 1: then to just run free for what two years afterward
Speaker 1: and you live with this every day of your life.
Speaker 1: It may have been passion driven, and it was certainly
Speaker 1: anger driven, but it wasn't like somebody just suddenly flew
Speaker 1: off the handle and decided to go and visit hell
Speaker 1: down upon the roads. This is something that took planning,
Speaker 1: in my estimation at least, So you began thinking this confederacy.
Speaker 1: What do you think about when you're moving from someplace
Speaker 1: like the last house that you hit with multiple people
Speaker 1: in it, and then you drive out to Kenni's house
Speaker 1: at some distance away. Now, what does that conversation consist of?
Speaker 1: You talk about what music you're gonna listen to on
Speaker 1: the radio and talk about who's going to handle what.
Speaker 1: I don't know who pulled the trigger. Jake said he
Speaker 1: killed five of them. But I can't imagine, to Jody's point,
Speaker 1: why in the world that man would say that he'd
Speaker 1: killed five people in an open court and he didn't
Speaker 1: do it. So that leaves us with the other three
Speaker 1: who would do this and do it in the presence
Speaker 1: of these babies and just leave them. And I can
Speaker 1: only imagine having walled around about in that blood there.
Speaker 1: I don't know. It leaves me dumbfounded, and that's hard
Speaker 1: to do. Hannah Gilly, she was attacked on the only
Speaker 1: second to Chris Roden. She was shot this woman five
Speaker 1: times in the face, which is an unbelievable overkill. So
Speaker 1: the thought is a why? And then also is it
Speaker 1: possible it would be a connection or rage because her
Speaker 1: brother Charlie Gilly is the father of Hannah Roden's new baby.
Speaker 1: That would be my suspicion. But I really don't know
Speaker 1: for sure. I mean, I would just be speculating because
Speaker 1: of that connection. There's a whole lot more going on.
Speaker 1: And you know, Hannah Gilly shot five times in the face.
Speaker 1: It's you know, you're looking at the angle. Well, is
Speaker 1: that a message being sent? One shot is a message?
Speaker 1: You know? Five? I don't know what you're doing at
Speaker 1: that point. Jay Wagner at least set out with a
Speaker 1: plan that night to do what he did to five
Speaker 1: of the eight you know who killed the other three?
Speaker 1: You know. I I just hope we all get these answers.
Speaker 1: Now that springs us to another point. I'm going to
Speaker 1: reflect back to an old, old case real quick that
Speaker 1: many people will be aware of and absolutely horrendous, And
Speaker 1: it's Dennis Rader with BTK killing now in Kansas. He
Speaker 1: stood up and he said, I will, in fact admit
Speaker 1: to everything I've done since I don't know, nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: three or seventy four. Winner it was he started this
Speaker 1: horrific murder scree, his serial killings. They put this one
Speaker 1: caveat in there. They said, okay, that's fine, we'll take
Speaker 1: death off the table, and you have to stand in
Speaker 1: court and you have to stand and deliver. At this moment,
Speaker 1: Tom and he was compelled to what is framed as
Speaker 1: an elocution. He had to stand there, and it's one
Speaker 1: of the most chilling things you've ever seen, because this
Speaker 1: guy's a psychopath. And so when you listen to him
Speaker 1: give the details behind these horrific crimes he participated in,
Speaker 1: it really makes you wonder if you want this thing
Speaker 1: that people talk about. They frames closure because it's a
Speaker 1: horror show. But in this particular case, if this is
Speaker 1: the route you're going to go, I think that these
Speaker 1: individuals should be compelled to allocute. Let's think about these
Speaker 1: babies that are left behind. These children. Don't just think
Speaker 1: they're gonna one an explanation at some point in time.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I know the community does, but what
Speaker 1: about these kids. Let's just assume that they do get
Speaker 1: convictions on all fronts here, what do you do? You
Speaker 1: push them off into a deep dark hole and they're
Speaker 1: never to be heard from. Again, and we'll never hear
Speaker 1: anything else about this. And people keep talking about, well,
Speaker 1: we'll never hear the true story because the deal was
Speaker 1: cut and they weren't compelled the perpetrators, if it is
Speaker 1: them and they are so convicted, they were never compelled
Speaker 1: to say, Okay, this is what happened, this is how
Speaker 1: the planning took place, and this is what we did
Speaker 1: that night. And those questions will always exist. And on
Speaker 1: a broader note, you're always going to have, you know,
Speaker 1: people sitting in their basement with tenfold hats on saying well,
Speaker 1: it wasn't them. You know, there'll be crazy conspiracy theories.
Speaker 1: It'll be created for years and years to come. But
Speaker 1: what actually happened that night. We're going to take a
Speaker 1: quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. Oh.
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Speaker 1: Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What's your
Speaker 1: theory on who the mastermind is. I don't want to
Speaker 1: indict anybody, obviously, but we have Jake Wagner confessing and
Speaker 1: implicating all of his family members in this, at least
Speaker 1: Billy Angela and his older brother, George the fourth Angela.
Speaker 1: If you, if you really kind of watched these hearings
Speaker 1: very closely, she was apparently on called. She was calling
Speaker 1: her mother against the judge's orders and telling Rita newcome,
Speaker 1: you don't have to testify against us. People who are
Speaker 1: completely innocent, they don't call their mothers and say you
Speaker 1: don't have to testify against us. And her mother came
Speaker 1: out in court and said, she asked me to lie
Speaker 1: about notarizing the documents, the custody documents, the forged custody
Speaker 1: documents that have been discussed in this case. It was
Speaker 1: stated they were declaration documents, and it was stated in
Speaker 1: Rita Newcomb's case, because she was the one accused of
Speaker 1: charged with forgery or obstruction, it said that it was
Speaker 1: declarations for the children of Hannah Rodin, George the Fourth
Speaker 1: and Jake, And so basically these documents designated a guardian
Speaker 1: should any of them die, And these documents had been
Speaker 1: signed and notarized nineteen days before the murders, and it
Speaker 1: designated the children go to Angela should any of them die.
Speaker 1: That's just one of those puzzle pieces that I've felt
Speaker 1: like showed that Angela she may have been the driving
Speaker 1: force here, since she was the one that had the
Speaker 1: Facebook message that's been referenced in court that showed that
Speaker 1: Hannah said they'd have to kill me first before I
Speaker 1: gave up my child, and she showed that message to Jake.
Speaker 1: Angie Kneppa said that in court when Jake pleaded guilty.
Speaker 1: The next thing I wanted to talk about was Alaska.
Speaker 1: When they all up and moved to your point together
Speaker 1: sold all of their stuff, I went, Whoo, this doesn't
Speaker 1: look good on paper. It looks like what you would
Speaker 1: suspect someone involved in a crime like this would do
Speaker 1: is to, you know, go to the other side of
Speaker 1: the world. So, I mean, that was just my initial
Speaker 1: impression of it. But to end up picking everything you
Speaker 1: own up and growing in a multiple trailers and moving
Speaker 1: man to Alaska, that's not like you know, moving just
Speaker 1: out of state. That's that's a long way to go
Speaker 1: and then to come right back. I would love to
Speaker 1: know more about the reasons behind that. You know, did
Speaker 1: they feel the heat at that point in time? Were
Speaker 1: they really trying to get away? I think what I'm
Speaker 1: so interested in is Jake's wife, who we don't know
Speaker 1: all that much about. But obviously he goes to Alaska,
Speaker 1: meets a woman, and then ends up marrying her. This
Speaker 1: other woman, I mean, what were those conversations luck? I mean,
Speaker 1: I would love to be able to sit down and
Speaker 1: talk with her now about you know, she watched that
Speaker 1: video feed of Jake pleading guilty to these murders. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you hid that from her too, you know, it's
Speaker 1: like a whole other level, another layer on this sadistic,
Speaker 1: twisted person that he turned out to be. Elizabeth then
Speaker 1: came back to Pike County with the family, and then
Speaker 1: she went to the police claiming threats, harassment, and potential
Speaker 1: identity the right. It's been very frustrating because that case
Speaker 1: is now years old and they won't release any more
Speaker 1: records about it, or any more of the report than
Speaker 1: just the first page, which basically says a name and
Speaker 1: you know, a complaint lod It doesn't say anything else.
Speaker 1: I talked to a lawyer about it a while back
Speaker 1: who did not think it would be successful to pursue
Speaker 1: obtaining that it's still listed as an open case even
Speaker 1: though it's been many years. This is, of course all
Speaker 1: speculation on my part. But because Jake's wife, Elizabeth, filed
Speaker 1: those harassment charges because she was living with Jake and
Speaker 1: his family in Alaska, came back to Piketon, it seems
Speaker 1: like a possibility she could be the informant. Who do
Speaker 1: you think the informant or informants are I think Jake
Speaker 1: Wagner's wife. We have efforted to find her so many times,
Speaker 1: so many ways, and a roadblock after roadblock, we just
Speaker 1: we haven't been able to speak with her. Well, I've
Speaker 1: kind of suspected for a while now that it was her.
Speaker 1: And then what I thought was interesting, and this was
Speaker 1: said in court, someone or more than one person refers
Speaker 1: to the informant as she right, Ryan Scheider, I think
Speaker 1: said she during his testimony last August. So that is
Speaker 1: what was the final thing to lead me to believe
Speaker 1: it was her. But it could be could be wrong,
Speaker 1: I don't know, could be a curveball out of nowhere, though,
Speaker 1: what if it's, you know, one of the grandmothers. I
Speaker 1: know that's hard to believe. I don't know how impossible
Speaker 1: it is about the grandmother's a. Obviously they're also tight knit,
Speaker 1: and I do think it's interesting Frederica has not said
Speaker 1: one word to my knowledge publicly since Jake has made
Speaker 1: his confession. But even with rita newcome, I can't imagine
Speaker 1: the pressure she was under when she had to talk
Speaker 1: about you know, my daughter said this, and if she
Speaker 1: did have something to say, and they were pressing her
Speaker 1: for a long time. Again, that's why, you know, it's
Speaker 1: like there's so much left unknown with this, and one
Speaker 1: day down the road we could rip this case file
Speaker 1: open and when it's all said and done and it's
Speaker 1: more the truth here Antonette and Jody, I know you
Speaker 1: live pretty local tips and and have been there. Joseph,
Speaker 1: can you tell us what your recent first trip was like.
Speaker 1: It's not unlike a lot of Appalachian towns, you know,
Speaker 1: in communities, it's you can tell that, you know, there's
Speaker 1: church just about on every corner. And the people I
Speaker 1: found were very warm. They didn't put it in the vernacular,
Speaker 1: they didn't give us the side eye when we got there,
Speaker 1: you know, they were very friendly and welcoming. I even
Speaker 1: now live in southern Appalachias, so I wasn't too far
Speaker 1: removed from my home and from that location. But when
Speaker 1: I got there, from the perspective of a forensics guy
Speaker 1: and a death investigator, everything has got to be contextualized
Speaker 1: for the environment which it occurs. You know, these horrible
Speaker 1: events and horrible events occur everywhere. No one is immune
Speaker 1: to them. But you know, for me going to piked
Speaker 1: in and kind of seeing it, you kind of get
Speaker 1: a feel for the routes that people would run and
Speaker 1: that there are a limited number of points of egress
Speaker 1: I think to get from point eight to point B.
Speaker 1: It's not like you've got multiple surface roads where you
Speaker 1: can get to a variety of different locations. Essentially, there's
Speaker 1: one way in and one way out. This is not
Speaker 1: a location where if you pulled in your average Joe
Speaker 1: and just slap them down, they're going to know where
Speaker 1: to go. It informs you as an investigator that whoever
Speaker 1: ran these routes and ran the route knew the area.
Speaker 1: Because there's several locations along Union Hill where essentially only
Speaker 1: one car can pass at a time in certain locations,
Speaker 1: particularly depended upon the vehicle. And one other note, if
Speaker 1: there's someone that is not of there, of that place,
Speaker 1: you will be noticed. You will be noticed. People will
Speaker 1: take notice of your presence there because it's not heavily populated,
Speaker 1: it's sparse, and so to move through that space, you
Speaker 1: would have to know where all the twist and turns are.
Speaker 1: You'd have to know what to avoid, what's the point
Speaker 1: of view that someone might have a particular location. All
Speaker 1: of these things are going to play into any kind
Speaker 1: of scenario that you're constructing in your mind where you're thinking,
Speaker 1: how can I go about getting away with a slaughter.
Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back
Speaker 1: in a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting
Speaker 1: a podcast called The Girl Friends. Back in the nineteen
Speaker 1: nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us dated the
Speaker 1: most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke several languages,
Speaker 1: he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He
Speaker 1: was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't.
Speaker 1: He shouted into the point she went unconscious. Bob could
Speaker 1: lie about anything, but only takes the one time when
Speaker 1: somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for bob Us, girlfriends know
Speaker 1: how to fight back. I wanted him to pay for
Speaker 1: his crime. He needed to be put to justice. I'll
Speaker 1: be honest with you. If I saw him right now,
Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I
Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will
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Speaker 1: The girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or
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Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. LA's reputation not so great.
Speaker 1: People from LA will have a very superficial, nice conversation
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Speaker 1: twenty two years of friendship, Andy, this has to be
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Speaker 1: love it. Our podcast My Vagina said, what is a
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Speaker 1: share our most personal and humiliating stories and ask questions
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Speaker 1: to My Vagina said, what podcasts on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What so
Speaker 1: if the four Wagners committed this crime together. Who was
Speaker 1: watching Jake and Hannah Rodin's daughter. Was she in the car,
Speaker 1: which is unimaginable, or was she home? I mean that's
Speaker 1: a special kind of crazy if you're going to take
Speaker 1: children along to kill eight people and just have them
Speaker 1: in their car seats. So I can't imagine anyone would
Speaker 1: do such a thing. So I would think somebody had
Speaker 1: to have been with those children. Hopefully we'll get that
Speaker 1: question answered. I mean, in the end, does it really
Speaker 1: matter now it's been alleged many times that each one
Speaker 1: of them had a role in this. I mean we've
Speaker 1: kind of heard that discussed before. Yeah, because your question
Speaker 1: of doesn't matter, I mean, in my mind would certainly
Speaker 1: is if someone outside the four is because then that
Speaker 1: person has been living with this secret knowledge that is
Speaker 1: hard to imagine bearing Oh sure. I mean it's not
Speaker 1: like you just dial up a babysitter and say, hey,
Speaker 1: can you come by and watch my kids for the night.
Speaker 1: I mean, can you imagine are my grandkids? I mean
Speaker 1: you would think that they would have spoken to that
Speaker 1: person already if there was a fifth person watching the
Speaker 1: children or something like that. Lenny kind of closing bites Enginette.
Speaker 1: Any thoughts at this moment, Yeah, I mean, I would
Speaker 1: love to see what Jake told the investigators. What was
Speaker 1: behind this? Was it just the child? And why? And
Speaker 1: I know why Jake. I mean, I kind of know why.
Speaker 1: Jake confessed he found God. That's what I was. That's
Speaker 1: what I heard. So don't blay all though, you know,
Speaker 1: if he ever covered a bond hearing it, I think
Speaker 1: some kind of fine God. I think some find God.
Speaker 1: And I guess he found he really found him. How
Speaker 1: about that? It will be interesting to see if it
Speaker 1: was more than just the child, because to wipe out
Speaker 1: eight people over a child is, you know, if that's it,
Speaker 1: that's a whole different type of thing that I'm you know,
Speaker 1: you hear about domestic violence incidents over children and divorces
Speaker 1: going ugly and a spouse kills another spouse over control,
Speaker 1: But to kill an entire family because you want one
Speaker 1: child is it is hard to wrap your head around
Speaker 1: if that is indeed all this was about. So right now,
Speaker 1: all we know is what Jake Wagner did, so I
Speaker 1: think we can all speak with certainty that he had
Speaker 1: a major role in this. But I mean, if you're
Speaker 1: looking at trying to make sense of this, and you
Speaker 1: know it's the custody issue. But then on top of that,
Speaker 1: it does loop Hannah Gilly in to some extent because
Speaker 1: her brother apparently he got this, you know, Hannah Road
Speaker 1: and pregnant. You know, it's not just Hannah and this child.
Speaker 1: It's Hannah, her mother, her father, you know, all centered
Speaker 1: around this baby. Everyone who could get custody of this baby.
Speaker 1: You know that may be driving him at that point.
Speaker 1: But then you now have Hannah Guilly looped in through
Speaker 1: her brother and that's tied to to Hannah Road, and
Speaker 1: you know, I don't is that enough. I mean, you
Speaker 1: know what if it comes out that and I know
Speaker 1: we all we've all heard the theory from the from
Speaker 1: the state at this point in time that this was
Speaker 1: a concerted effort by four members of the Wagner family.
Speaker 1: But you know what if it comes out that, you know,
Speaker 1: Jake was truly the trigger guy, and you know the
Speaker 1: rest are sort of on the periphery helping and supporting.
Speaker 1: You know, again, I mean, this is just me shooting
Speaker 1: the breeze here about this, but you know it's just
Speaker 1: you try to put yourself in that mindset of doing
Speaker 1: what we know Jake did at this point in time,
Speaker 1: and the result of whoever's actions, you still got eight
Speaker 1: people dead and children laying in the blood and the
Speaker 1: you know, the aftermath of that. It's a hell of
Speaker 1: a situation over there. Will continue to monitor movements in
Speaker 1: George Wagner's trial, as well as any developments regarding accused
Speaker 1: father Billy Wagner and accused mother Angela Wagner. But while
Speaker 1: we wait, we want to turn our attention back to
Speaker 1: the Michael Moran's story that we covered in episodes seven.
Speaker 1: I really thought there was no way, there was no
Speaker 1: way this could be going on for so long and
Speaker 1: nobody did anything about it. One of the best lawyers,
Speaker 1: and a politician and a sitting judge all possibly involved
Speaker 1: in this network. That's how deep this went, and that's
Speaker 1: when we knew we needed to get more women who
Speaker 1: had been through this experience to talk about what they
Speaker 1: said they'd been through with Michael Marion. We'll have part
Speaker 1: two of that next week. For more information on the
Speaker 1: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie
Speaker 1: Underscore Studios. The piked and massacre returned to Pike County
Speaker 1: is Executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong.
Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional
Speaker 1: producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker and Chris Graves. The
Speaker 1: Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County is a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more pod cast from
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Carol Fisher
Speaker 1: and I'm hosting a podcast called The girl Friends. It's
Speaker 1: Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time
Speaker 1: to find a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who
Speaker 1: were felt to be eligible bachelors. One of them was
Speaker 1: the spot Baronmout. On paper, he was perfect, but in reality,
Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted and to the point
Speaker 1: she went unconscious. I would call him and I would say,
Speaker 1: I know you killed my sister. You can listen to
Speaker 1: The girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or
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