1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 19 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. On how Rude Tanta Ritos, the Full 20 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: House Rewatch podcast, join characters Stephanie Tanner and Kimmy Gibler, 21 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: also known as actresses Jody Sweeten and Andrea Barber, as 22 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: they relive every episode of your favorite Friday night comfort show. 23 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: We spent our entire childhoods on a little show called Pullhouse, 24 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: playing frenemies but becoming besties whenever the cameras weren't rolling, 25 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: and now thirty five years later, it's our biggest adventure yet. 26 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: Listen to How Rude Tanta Ritos on the iHeartRadio app, 27 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, 28 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: are you ready for a brand new podcast that you 29 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: had no idea existed. I'm Rory Scoville and I'm Daniel 30 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: van Kirk and it's the pen Pals Podcast. Maybe you've 31 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: had a pen pal before, where you have two of 32 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: them right now. You send us your letters about anything 33 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: going on in your life. Gotta mean Grandma, need a 34 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: new haircut, whatever it is, send it to us, and 35 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: we have guests like Will Ferrell, Andy Samberg, Rose Burn, 36 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: Brett Goldstein, and Mandy Moore. Listen to the Penpals podcast 37 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,559 Speaker 1: on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, 38 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to 39 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: the Piketon Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios, 40 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: Season two, Episode eight, Expert Roundtable. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a 41 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,959 Speaker 1: television producer at Katie Studios, with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. 42 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: On June twenty one, twenty twenty one, accused brother George 43 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: Wagner the fourth appeared in court for a pre trial 44 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: hearing in the Roden murder case. Five hearing long then 45 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: and a number of defense pre trial motions. It was 46 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: the first full hearing to take place in George's younger brother, 47 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner, played guilty to killing five of the eight 48 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: slain members of the Roden family in April twenty sixteen, 49 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: and it was Jake's plea and what he potentially told 50 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: authorities that became the defense's primary focus during these proceedings. 51 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: I think we need more than sixty days to investigate 52 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: whatever we learned Jake's profit because we have not been 53 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: provided at even though it's been available for two longs, 54 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: we have not received that we are entitled to that 55 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: under Criminal Rules sixteen. And once we get it, and 56 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: I understand it's more than ten hours of recording statements. 57 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: So once we get that, we need an adequate amount 58 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,519 Speaker 1: of time to investigate whatever we need to investigate, and 59 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: will certainly comply with our discovery outligations the state degree 60 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: to work towards providing George Wagner's attorneys with Jake's confession. 61 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: The court also scheduled George's next motion hearing to take 62 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: place on September thirteenth. But before court was dismissed, Judge 63 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: Randy Dearing provided one critical piece of information for George 64 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: moving forward. We have said a trial date in this 65 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: case for four with a cut brother. George Wagner said 66 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: to begin trial on April fourth, twenty twenty two. There 67 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: will surely be a lot to cover moving forward. But 68 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: just a few days before or George Wagner's most recent hearing, 69 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: we got some of our regular contributors together for discussion, 70 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: Reporters Angeennette Levy and Jodi Barr, and criminal forensic expert 71 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: Joseph Morgan. We covered a range of topics that spanned 72 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: their years covering the Roden murder case. We started out 73 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: with a talk about some of the details they had 74 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: heard leading up to George Wagner's tile last week and 75 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: what they expected the outcome to be. Angeanette Leavey started 76 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 1: us off some documents filed by George the Fourth's lawyers, 77 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: saying they still haven't received Jake's statements to law enforcement, 78 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: and they were led to believe that Jake's interviews were 79 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: between ten and eighteen hours, So they subpoenaed Greg Myers, 80 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: who is the lead counsel for Jake, and they filed 81 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: emotion demanding that the additional discovery, including Jake's interviews, be 82 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: turned over. So we don't know the veracity of his 83 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: statements or how truthful they are, other than he allegedly 84 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: led them to the vehicle used and the weapons used. 85 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: So I mean he did quite a bit of talking. Jody. 86 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: How rare is it for one attorney's to subpoena another attorney. 87 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: I don't recall a specific instance of that, but I 88 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: mean that that is a clear indication that one side 89 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 1: does not feel that they are getting the information they 90 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: need to defend their clients. So I think it's worth 91 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: a deeper look at. You know, why either the state 92 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: or Jake's own attorneys are not playing ball here. That's 93 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 1: been to complaint the entire time that defense attorneys have 94 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: complained consistently that they're not getting material as quickly as 95 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: they would like. And you would think they would just 96 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: make a copy and send it over. Yeah, I mean, 97 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: and in this one, I would venture a guess that 98 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: it was at least audio recorded, perhaps if not video recorded, 99 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: this statement that Jake gave. So, I mean, you know, 100 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: they need to produce this. I don't know how you 101 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: know these three defense teams can adequately prepare for trial 102 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: when there's this huge evidence dumped from Jake Wagner's mouth 103 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: that apparently they don't have access to. Right now, you've 104 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: got one of the four saying I did it. I 105 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: did it, And you know what did he do exactly? 106 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: We didn't hear it in court. You know, maybe he 107 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: told that story in the statements, but ten to eighteen 108 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: hours it's a heck of a long time to have 109 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,799 Speaker 1: a conversation cover a lot of ground in that time. 110 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: So I had a quote normal pre trial, what happens? 111 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: What's the broad strokes? They usually ask the defendant if 112 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 1: they're happy with their lawyer, and they're meeting with their 113 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: lawyer enough, and they discussed the pace of discovery and 114 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: what have you. But I feel like in this case, 115 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 1: nothing ever happens. I mean, they go into chambers for 116 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: an hour and then they come out and put something 117 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: on the record because these are death penalty cases. Now 118 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: they're really not death penalty cases because they've taken that 119 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: off the table. If Jake testifies against everyone, they typically 120 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: are pretty uneventful. We've had some sparks fly in some 121 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: of the motions hearings, but I haven't. You know, these 122 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: pre trials tend to be pretty dry. Yeah, I thought 123 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,919 Speaker 1: that too until what was at April the twenty first 124 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: of this year, the night before Jake Wagner played guilty. 125 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: I was told some family members that BCI reached out 126 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: and said, you want to be at the courthouse tomorrow 127 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: in Pike County. And then that was just docketed as 128 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: a pre trial hearing and there was no indication that 129 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner would be pleading guilty other than the state 130 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: calling the family and suggesting they'd be there. So that 131 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: actually turned into the end of his prosecution. So, man, 132 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: I think if you get a call from the family 133 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: any one of these pre trials, that just seemed like 134 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: a routine, you know, where are we in this prosecution 135 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: and does everybody have what they need so we can 136 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: try this thing? Man, I think you got to be 137 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: careful in this case. You don't know what may come next. 138 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: I mean, Jake, was I think a complete surprise to everybody, 139 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: even the family. What were your thoughts on that day, Joseph? 140 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: None of us were expecting this. Do you remember we 141 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: were all texting between one another, staying one and the 142 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: hell's going on? Because this scene dropped like thunder out 143 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: of the heavens and we never saw it coming. I 144 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: didn't certainly, I had no idea that this was about 145 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: to happen. So you could knock me over with a 146 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: feather that day. There is a distinct possibility that he 147 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: could come in and plead. I don't think he's going 148 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: to plead if he was going to play guilty, I 149 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: don't think his lawyer would be like filing a demand 150 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: for discovery in a trial date. So just my opinion. 151 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: But what do I know, Probably get out there and 152 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: something crazy you'll happen. It's the Pike Ti massacre. Who knows. 153 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: You never know where this is going next. Covering this story, 154 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: who did you guys first think? Didn't I thought it 155 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: could have been related to the pot, you know, the 156 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: marijuana growing operation. But I had been told early on 157 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: by some law enforcement sources, federal law enforcement sources, that 158 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: the cartel thing wasn't true because they ran that down 159 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 1: because of the level of violence that was involved in it, 160 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: and it didn't seem like messaging so much to me. 161 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: As you would see with an organized crime hit, there's 162 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: generally something that will be left that is substantial, you know, 163 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: the elements that we've talked about quite a bit relative 164 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: to overkill in cases I've seen and then you displayed 165 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: before us. It seemed very intimate to me, very very intimate, 166 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: and cartel's their money, but they're not intimate. Also with 167 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: intimacy comes that level of familiarity and the fact that 168 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: in this tight little space, you know, and it is 169 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: a tight little space when you travel down that road, 170 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: you have these locations where all these people inhabited, these 171 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: very specific pinpoint locations, and there's other structures and other 172 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: families around that area. They knew where there were going. 173 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: There were no mistakes. Many times, if somebody's not familiar 174 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: with an area and they're going to go out and 175 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 1: kill somebody, you'll have mistakes along the way, but they 176 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: had pinpointed four separate locations, and that again goes back. 177 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: I think there's connectivity with that seed of intimacy. The 178 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: whole thing about the dog's not barking, because they said 179 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: those dogs would have. That was just very strange. We 180 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: knew there was a baby, We knew there was a child, 181 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 1: you know, we knew about the little girl, and we 182 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: knew about the Wagoners. But I didn't hear the Wagner 183 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: name and any association with the murders or suspected association 184 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: until May of twenty seventeen, and then Jody was at 185 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: your experience as well. I got over there heavily in 186 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: June July, right after the murders, and I mean people 187 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: you talk with, even the family members, had already and 188 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: I don't know what the reasons were, but it had 189 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: already suspected something to do with the Wagners. I mean 190 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: they had already floated, you know, the Wagner farm out 191 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,439 Speaker 1: as being the base of operations for this family. There 192 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: was also a drug case in Adams County, which is 193 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: just right next door to Pike, that the rumor Mill 194 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: believed could have been linked you know, to the Wagoners, 195 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: the Wagner farm, or at least you know what happened 196 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: over as far as the drug angle that ended up 197 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: not being connected in the end, or as far as 198 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: we know it's not connected. But you know, we went 199 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: as far as you know, covering a court hearing over 200 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 1: there for someone who had a substantial amount of drugs 201 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: on them. So anyway, there there was a lot swirling around. 202 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: But the Wagner name. We heard that early on that 203 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: some people suspected that they were somehow involved. But you know, 204 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: back then, it's like, how do you even where do 205 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: you start on something like that? I went out past that, 206 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 1: you know, the Flying w farm. You try to dig 207 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: in the property records and background these people, and first off, 208 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot to background with these folks. And secondly, 209 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: it's just you know, what you did find didn't scream 210 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: mass murderers. I didn't see anything there that would cause 211 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: me to continue digging. It was nothing that I found, 212 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: at least in looking into the Wagner family that I 213 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: went okay there to smoking gun. The rumors are true. 214 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: It's just you collected it as information, you try to 215 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: vet it. You get nowhere and you just move on. 216 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: And then Andrewette, yeah, I'm curious your perspective, and starting 217 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: to develop an idea of them. I started looking into them, 218 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: and you know, when you see that Jake and George 219 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: and the house and the mom lived there with them, 220 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: I was kind of like, oh, that's weird. And then 221 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: I remember being out there and hearing a little bit about, 222 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: you know, how they lived, and learning more about George's 223 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: wife now ex wife. It all started to kind of 224 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: sound very interesting. So I remember specifically going up to 225 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: the Flying w and you go up there and it's 226 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: like this steep I would say, it's like a R 227 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: seventy degree kind of like driveway, gravel driveway, and driving 228 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: up there and being basically told to get off the property, 229 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 1: you know, just seeing if they wanted to comment. So 230 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: it was a little creepy, a little scary. I mean, 231 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: it's a beautiful property, don't get me wrong, But when 232 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,079 Speaker 1: your cell phone doesn't work and you're driving up somewhere 233 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: to go try to talk to somebody and somebody you know, 234 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: basically comes out and tells you to get out of there, 235 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: I felt a little weird. You know. Obviously, it wasn't 236 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: very welcoming. I started digging around on Facebook quite a 237 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: bit too, and it didn't seem like on the surface 238 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: that you would suspect anything. You know, the mom Angela 239 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: was running some type of little organic farm type thing 240 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: at that Peterson Road house. You know, she was trying 241 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: to breed animals and sell them, and she had pictures 242 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: of the children on there on Facebook. So, you know, 243 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: at first it didn't seem weird. But then I contacted 244 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: her and said, look, you know, I'd love to do 245 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: an interview with you. And then some of the things 246 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner said to me on Facebook messenger kind of 247 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: made me feel a little uncomfortable, the way she was 248 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: trying to dictate what I said, what I would be 249 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: reporting about our conversations on Facebook messenger. She said, you 250 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: know you are not to report any of this what 251 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: I said. You know, I do not give you permission 252 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: to report anything. I just told you. She said that 253 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: she was being slander she and her family. Do you 254 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: think Jake is lying about being personally responsible for five 255 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: of the eight? I don't know what his incentive to 256 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: lie about that is. I mean, is he that afraid 257 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: of the death penalty? The economics of that equation just 258 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: does not make sense to me. Where he would openly 259 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: confess to murdering five people. Probably the worst act you 260 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: could commit as a human is taking the life of another, 261 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: and he did that five times over. I think we 262 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: got a good idea of what happened here, and Jake 263 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: Wagner told his story in court, and he took the 264 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: guilty plea and said he did it, you know, five 265 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: of the eight. You know. I think that's the best 266 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: shot we've had so far at some confirmation of really 267 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: peeling this story back. I think the world wants to 268 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: know what happened when they woke up that morning, put 269 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: this plan in place, Who went where, who did what? 270 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: As I think all of us have done since April 271 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen when this happened, as you roll around these 272 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: scenarios in your mind, trying to figure out, first off, 273 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: what's the mindset of someone to pull this off and 274 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: then to just run free for what two years afterward 275 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: and you live with this every day of your life. 276 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: It may have been passion driven, and it was certainly 277 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: anger driven, but it wasn't like somebody just suddenly flew 278 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: off the handle and decided to go and visit hell 279 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: down upon the roads. This is something that took planning, 280 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: in my estimation at least, So you began thinking this confederacy. 281 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: What do you think about when you're moving from someplace 282 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: like the last house that you hit with multiple people 283 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: in it, and then you drive out to Kenni's house 284 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: at some distance away. Now, what does that conversation consist of? 285 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: You talk about what music you're gonna listen to on 286 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: the radio and talk about who's going to handle what. 287 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: I don't know who pulled the trigger. Jake said he 288 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: killed five of them. But I can't imagine, to Jody's point, 289 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: why in the world that man would say that he'd 290 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: killed five people in an open court and he didn't 291 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: do it. So that leaves us with the other three 292 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: who would do this and do it in the presence 293 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: of these babies and just leave them. And I can 294 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: only imagine having walled around about in that blood there. 295 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: I don't know. It leaves me dumbfounded, and that's hard 296 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: to do. Hannah Gilly, she was attacked on the only 297 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: second to Chris Roden. She was shot this woman five 298 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: times in the face, which is an unbelievable overkill. So 299 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: the thought is a why? And then also is it 300 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: possible it would be a connection or rage because her 301 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: brother Charlie Gilly is the father of Hannah Roden's new baby. 302 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: That would be my suspicion. But I really don't know 303 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: for sure. I mean, I would just be speculating because 304 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: of that connection. There's a whole lot more going on. 305 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: And you know, Hannah Gilly shot five times in the face. 306 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: It's you know, you're looking at the angle. Well, is 307 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: that a message being sent? One shot is a message? 308 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: You know? Five? I don't know what you're doing at 309 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: that point. Jay Wagner at least set out with a 310 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: plan that night to do what he did to five 311 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: of the eight you know who killed the other three? 312 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: You know. I I just hope we all get these answers. 313 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: Now that springs us to another point. I'm going to 314 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: reflect back to an old, old case real quick that 315 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: many people will be aware of and absolutely horrendous, And 316 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: it's Dennis Rader with BTK killing now in Kansas. He 317 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: stood up and he said, I will, in fact admit 318 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: to everything I've done since I don't know, nineteen seventy 319 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: three or seventy four. Winner it was he started this 320 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: horrific murder scree, his serial killings. They put this one 321 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: caveat in there. They said, okay, that's fine, we'll take 322 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: death off the table, and you have to stand in 323 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: court and you have to stand and deliver. At this moment, 324 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: Tom and he was compelled to what is framed as 325 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: an elocution. He had to stand there, and it's one 326 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: of the most chilling things you've ever seen, because this 327 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: guy's a psychopath. And so when you listen to him 328 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: give the details behind these horrific crimes he participated in, 329 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: it really makes you wonder if you want this thing 330 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: that people talk about. They frames closure because it's a 331 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: horror show. But in this particular case, if this is 332 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: the route you're going to go, I think that these 333 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 1: individuals should be compelled to allocute. Let's think about these 334 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,719 Speaker 1: babies that are left behind. These children. Don't just think 335 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: they're gonna one an explanation at some point in time. 336 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I know the community does, but what 337 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: about these kids. Let's just assume that they do get 338 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: convictions on all fronts here, what do you do? You 339 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:29,880 Speaker 1: push them off into a deep dark hole and they're 340 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: never to be heard from. Again, and we'll never hear 341 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: anything else about this. And people keep talking about, well, 342 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: we'll never hear the true story because the deal was 343 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 1: cut and they weren't compelled the perpetrators, if it is 344 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: them and they are so convicted, they were never compelled 345 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: to say, Okay, this is what happened, this is how 346 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: the planning took place, and this is what we did 347 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 1: that night. And those questions will always exist. And on 348 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: a broader note, you're always going to have, you know, 349 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: people sitting in their basement with tenfold hats on saying well, 350 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: it wasn't them. You know, there'll be crazy conspiracy theories. 351 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: It'll be created for years and years to come. But 352 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: what actually happened that night. We're going to take a 353 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. Oh. 354 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called the Girlfriends. 355 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 356 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 357 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 358 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 359 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted, and to the point she 360 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes 361 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: the one time somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, 362 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him 363 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 1: to pay for his crime. He needed to be put 364 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw 365 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call 366 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 367 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: I will always hound you and haunt you. You can 368 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: listen to the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 369 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,719 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. In our twenty two 370 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: years of friendship, Andy, this has to be the most 371 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: bizarre thing we've ever done. I know, I love it. 372 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: Our podcast My Vagina said, what is a podcast where 373 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: we ask our everyday Vagina listeners to pull up a 374 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: seat at the best Friend's table as we share our 375 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 1: most personal and humiliating stories and ask questions about women's bodies. 376 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 1: We are going to discuss all body things like what 377 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: exactly are we supposed to do with our pubes? Oh 378 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: my gosh, if you could have a heart shaped pube 379 00:19:55,080 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: that were bedazzled in pink rubies or perrymenopau, I feel 380 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: right now justified. I'm going to start my own personal movement. 381 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to start blaming anything that goes wrong in 382 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: my life on Harry menopause, leg hair too long, Harry 383 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: don't have the will to clean, Harry menopause exactly, are 384 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: whack periods, boob issues, and so much more. Listen to 385 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: my Vagina said, what podcasts on the iHeartRadio app, Apple 386 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 1: podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What LA's reputation 387 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 1: not so great? People from LA will have a very superficial, 388 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 1: nice conversation with you, and they won't lift a finger 389 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: to help you. To LA, people represent vapidity, stops that 390 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: like oh the best calls like oh shoot. As someone 391 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 1: born and raised here, I can tell you there's much 392 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,719 Speaker 1: more to LA than this. My name is James Kim, 393 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: and I'm the creator of a new anthology fiction podcast, 394 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: call You Feeling This. It's ten different stories about La, 395 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: the real people who make up this city. What Amar? 396 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: Did you listen to my message? Who were just trying 397 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,640 Speaker 1: to get bought? I think I was just freaking out 398 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: because I'm scared by connecting with each other. I'm going 399 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: to be a father. Are you feeling this? A fiction 400 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: podcast mixtape about Love. Listen to it on the iHeartRadio app, 401 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is 402 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: the unbelievable but true story of George Remus. You might 403 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: know him as a character from Boardwalk Empire or as 404 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: the inspiration for Jay Gatsby. He was an eccentric and 405 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: genius lawyer who figured out how to game the system 406 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 1: during Prohibition. Remus is in the whiskey business, and Remus 407 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: is the biggest man in the business, while living the 408 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 1: life of luxury with his clamorous and ambitious wife Imogene. Daddy, 409 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: I am so glad you're here. But George Remus's wild 410 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 1: existence took a dark and shocking turn, leading to betrayal. 411 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: She had Remus just exactly where she wanted him revenge. 412 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: Feel this muscle. I got this for Remus. I could 413 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: crush him like an egg. And one of the most 414 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: sensational murder trials in American history, we the jury, find 415 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: the Defendant, Join me Abbot Kaylor as we traced George 416 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: Remus's transformation from bootleg King to alleged madman. Listen to 417 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 1: Remus the Mad Bootleg King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, 418 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What's your 419 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: theory on who the mastermind is. I don't want to 420 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: indict anybody, obviously, but we have Jake Wagner confessing and 421 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 1: implicating all of his family members in this, at least 422 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: Billy Angela and his older brother, George the fourth Angela. 423 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: If you, if you really kind of watched these hearings 424 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 1: very closely, she was apparently on called. She was calling 425 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: her mother against the judge's orders and telling Rita newcome, 426 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,959 Speaker 1: you don't have to testify against us. People who are 427 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: completely innocent, they don't call their mothers and say you 428 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: don't have to testify against us. And her mother came 429 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: out in court and said, she asked me to lie 430 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: about notarizing the documents, the custody documents, the forged custody 431 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 1: documents that have been discussed in this case. It was 432 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: stated they were declaration documents, and it was stated in 433 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: Rita Newcomb's case, because she was the one accused of 434 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: charged with forgery or obstruction, it said that it was 435 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: declarations for the children of Hannah Rodin, George the Fourth 436 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: and Jake, And so basically these documents designated a guardian 437 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: should any of them die, And these documents had been 438 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: signed and notarized nineteen days before the murders, and it 439 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 1: designated the children go to Angela should any of them die. 440 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: That's just one of those puzzle pieces that I've felt 441 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: like showed that Angela she may have been the driving 442 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: force here, since she was the one that had the 443 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: Facebook message that's been referenced in court that showed that 444 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: Hannah said they'd have to kill me first before I 445 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: gave up my child, and she showed that message to Jake. 446 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: Angie Kneppa said that in court when Jake pleaded guilty. 447 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: The next thing I wanted to talk about was Alaska. 448 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: When they all up and moved to your point together 449 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: sold all of their stuff, I went, Whoo, this doesn't 450 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: look good on paper. It looks like what you would 451 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 1: suspect someone involved in a crime like this would do 452 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: is to, you know, go to the other side of 453 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 1: the world. So, I mean, that was just my initial 454 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 1: impression of it. But to end up picking everything you 455 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: own up and growing in a multiple trailers and moving 456 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: man to Alaska, that's not like you know, moving just 457 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: out of state. That's that's a long way to go 458 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: and then to come right back. I would love to 459 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: know more about the reasons behind that. You know, did 460 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,360 Speaker 1: they feel the heat at that point in time? Were 461 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: they really trying to get away? I think what I'm 462 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 1: so interested in is Jake's wife, who we don't know 463 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: all that much about. But obviously he goes to Alaska, 464 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: meets a woman, and then ends up marrying her. This 465 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: other woman, I mean, what were those conversations luck? I mean, 466 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: I would love to be able to sit down and 467 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: talk with her now about you know, she watched that 468 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: video feed of Jake pleading guilty to these murders. I mean, 469 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: if you hid that from her too, you know, it's 470 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: like a whole other level, another layer on this sadistic, 471 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: twisted person that he turned out to be. Elizabeth then 472 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: came back to Pike County with the family, and then 473 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: she went to the police claiming threats, harassment, and potential 474 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: identity the right. It's been very frustrating because that case 475 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: is now years old and they won't release any more 476 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: records about it, or any more of the report than 477 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 1: just the first page, which basically says a name and 478 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: you know, a complaint lod It doesn't say anything else. 479 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: I talked to a lawyer about it a while back 480 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: who did not think it would be successful to pursue 481 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: obtaining that it's still listed as an open case even 482 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: though it's been many years. This is, of course all 483 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: speculation on my part. But because Jake's wife, Elizabeth, filed 484 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: those harassment charges because she was living with Jake and 485 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: his family in Alaska, came back to Piketon, it seems 486 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: like a possibility she could be the informant. Who do 487 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: you think the informant or informants are I think Jake 488 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: Wagner's wife. We have efforted to find her so many times, 489 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: so many ways, and a roadblock after roadblock, we just 490 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: we haven't been able to speak with her. Well, I've 491 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: kind of suspected for a while now that it was her. 492 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: And then what I thought was interesting, and this was 493 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: said in court, someone or more than one person refers 494 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: to the informant as she right, Ryan Scheider, I think 495 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: said she during his testimony last August. So that is 496 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: what was the final thing to lead me to believe 497 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: it was her. But it could be could be wrong, 498 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 1: I don't know, could be a curveball out of nowhere, though, 499 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: what if it's, you know, one of the grandmothers. I 500 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 1: know that's hard to believe. I don't know how impossible 501 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: it is about the grandmother's a. Obviously they're also tight knit, 502 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: and I do think it's interesting Frederica has not said 503 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: one word to my knowledge publicly since Jake has made 504 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 1: his confession. But even with rita newcome, I can't imagine 505 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: the pressure she was under when she had to talk 506 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: about you know, my daughter said this, and if she 507 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: did have something to say, and they were pressing her 508 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: for a long time. Again, that's why, you know, it's 509 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: like there's so much left unknown with this, and one 510 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 1: day down the road we could rip this case file 511 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: open and when it's all said and done and it's 512 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: more the truth here Antonette and Jody, I know you 513 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: live pretty local tips and and have been there. Joseph, 514 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,719 Speaker 1: can you tell us what your recent first trip was like. 515 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: It's not unlike a lot of Appalachian towns, you know, 516 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: in communities, it's you can tell that, you know, there's 517 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: church just about on every corner. And the people I 518 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: found were very warm. They didn't put it in the vernacular, 519 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: they didn't give us the side eye when we got there, 520 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: you know, they were very friendly and welcoming. I even 521 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: now live in southern Appalachias, so I wasn't too far 522 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: removed from my home and from that location. But when 523 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: I got there, from the perspective of a forensics guy 524 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: and a death investigator, everything has got to be contextualized 525 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: for the environment which it occurs. You know, these horrible 526 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,360 Speaker 1: events and horrible events occur everywhere. No one is immune 527 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: to them. But you know, for me going to piked 528 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: in and kind of seeing it, you kind of get 529 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: a feel for the routes that people would run and 530 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: that there are a limited number of points of egress 531 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: I think to get from point eight to point B. 532 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: It's not like you've got multiple surface roads where you 533 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: can get to a variety of different locations. Essentially, there's 534 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: one way in and one way out. This is not 535 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: a location where if you pulled in your average Joe 536 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: and just slap them down, they're going to know where 537 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: to go. It informs you as an investigator that whoever 538 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: ran these routes and ran the route knew the area. 539 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: Because there's several locations along Union Hill where essentially only 540 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: one car can pass at a time in certain locations, 541 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: particularly depended upon the vehicle. And one other note, if 542 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: there's someone that is not of there, of that place, 543 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: you will be noticed. You will be noticed. People will 544 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: take notice of your presence there because it's not heavily populated, 545 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: it's sparse, and so to move through that space, you 546 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: would have to know where all the twist and turns are. 547 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: You'd have to know what to avoid, what's the point 548 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: of view that someone might have a particular location. All 549 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: of these things are going to play into any kind 550 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: of scenario that you're constructing in your mind where you're thinking, 551 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: how can I go about getting away with a slaughter. 552 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back 553 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: in a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting 554 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 1: a podcast called The Girl Friends. Back in the nineteen 555 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 1: nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us dated the 556 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke several languages, 557 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He 558 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't. 559 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: He shouted into the point she went unconscious. Bob could 560 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: lie about anything, but only takes the one time when 561 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for bob Us, girlfriends know 562 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: how to fight back. I wanted him to pay for 563 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: his crime. He needed to be put to justice. I'll 564 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: be honest with you. If I saw him right now, 565 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 566 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 567 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 568 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: The girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or 569 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. This is the unbelievable but 570 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: true story of George Remus. You might know him as 571 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: a character from Boardwalk Empire or as the inspiration for 572 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: Jay Gatsby. He was an eccentric and genius lawyer who 573 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: figured out how to game the system during Prohibition. Remus 574 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: is in the whiskey business, and Remus is the biggest 575 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: man in the business, while living the life of luxury 576 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: with his glamorous and ambitious wife Imogene. Daddy, I am 577 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: so glad you are here. But George Ramos's wild existence 578 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: took a dark and shocking turn, leading to betrayal. She 579 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: had Remis just exactly where she wanted him. Revenge. Feel 580 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: this muscle. I got this for Remus. I could crush 581 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: him like an egg, and one of the most sensational 582 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: murder trials in American history. We the jury, find the defendant, 583 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: Join me Abbot Kaylor as we trace George Remus's transformation 584 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: from bootleg King to alleged madman. Listen to Remus the 585 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: Mad Bootleg King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 586 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. LA's reputation not so great. 587 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: People from LA will have a very superficial, nice conversation 588 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: with you, and they won't lift a finger to help you. 589 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: To LA, people represent vapidity, stops that like oh the 590 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: best goals, like oh shoot leave. As someone born and 591 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: raised here, I can tell you there's much more to 592 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: LA than this. My name is James Kim, and I'm 593 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: the creator of a new anthology fiction podcast, call You 594 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: Feeling This. It's ten different stories about LA and the 595 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: real people who make up this city. What name did 596 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: you listen to? My message? Who were just trying to 597 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: get bought? I think I was just freaking out because 598 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: I'm scared by connecting with each other. I'm going to 599 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: be a father. Yes, Are You Feeling This? A fiction 600 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: podcast mixtape about love Listen to it on the iHeartRadio app, 601 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. In our 602 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: twenty two years of friendship, Andy, this has to be 603 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: the most bizarre thing we've ever done. I know, I 604 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: love it. Our podcast My Vagina said, what is a 605 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: podcast where we ask our everyday Vagina listeners to pull 606 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: up a seat at the best Friend's table as we 607 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: share our most personal and humiliating stories and ask questions 608 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: about women's bodies. We are going to discuss all body 609 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: things like what exactly are we supposed to do with 610 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: our pubes? Oh my gosh, if you could have a 611 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: heart shaped pube that were bedazzled in pink rubies? Or perrymenopause. 612 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: I feel right now justified. I'm going to start my 613 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: own personal movement. I'm going to start blaming anything that 614 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: goes wrong in my life on perrymenopause, leg hair too long, perrymenopause, 615 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: I don't have the will to clean Perry menopause exactly? 616 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,280 Speaker 1: Are whack periods? Boob issues? And so much more? Listen 617 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: to My Vagina said, what podcasts on the iHeartRadio app, 618 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What so 619 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: if the four Wagners committed this crime together. Who was 620 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,720 Speaker 1: watching Jake and Hannah Rodin's daughter. Was she in the car, 621 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: which is unimaginable, or was she home? I mean that's 622 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: a special kind of crazy if you're going to take 623 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: children along to kill eight people and just have them 624 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,479 Speaker 1: in their car seats. So I can't imagine anyone would 625 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: do such a thing. So I would think somebody had 626 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: to have been with those children. Hopefully we'll get that 627 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: question answered. I mean, in the end, does it really 628 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: matter now it's been alleged many times that each one 629 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: of them had a role in this. I mean we've 630 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: kind of heard that discussed before. Yeah, because your question 631 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: of doesn't matter, I mean, in my mind would certainly 632 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 1: is if someone outside the four is because then that 633 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: person has been living with this secret knowledge that is 634 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: hard to imagine bearing Oh sure. I mean it's not 635 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: like you just dial up a babysitter and say, hey, 636 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:12,879 Speaker 1: can you come by and watch my kids for the night. 637 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: I mean, can you imagine are my grandkids? I mean 638 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: you would think that they would have spoken to that 639 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: person already if there was a fifth person watching the 640 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: children or something like that. Lenny kind of closing bites Enginette. 641 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: Any thoughts at this moment, Yeah, I mean, I would 642 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 1: love to see what Jake told the investigators. What was 643 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: behind this? Was it just the child? And why? And 644 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 1: I know why Jake. I mean, I kind of know why. 645 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: Jake confessed he found God. That's what I was. That's 646 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: what I heard. So don't blay all though, you know, 647 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: if he ever covered a bond hearing it, I think 648 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: some kind of fine God. I think some find God. 649 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: And I guess he found he really found him. How 650 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: about that? It will be interesting to see if it 651 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: was more than just the child, because to wipe out 652 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: eight people over a child is, you know, if that's it, 653 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: that's a whole different type of thing that I'm you know, 654 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: you hear about domestic violence incidents over children and divorces 655 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: going ugly and a spouse kills another spouse over control, 656 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: But to kill an entire family because you want one 657 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,399 Speaker 1: child is it is hard to wrap your head around 658 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: if that is indeed all this was about. So right now, 659 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: all we know is what Jake Wagner did, so I 660 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: think we can all speak with certainty that he had 661 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 1: a major role in this. But I mean, if you're 662 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: looking at trying to make sense of this, and you 663 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 1: know it's the custody issue. But then on top of that, 664 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: it does loop Hannah Gilly in to some extent because 665 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: her brother apparently he got this, you know, Hannah Road 666 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: and pregnant. You know, it's not just Hannah and this child. 667 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 1: It's Hannah, her mother, her father, you know, all centered 668 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 1: around this baby. Everyone who could get custody of this baby. 669 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 1: You know that may be driving him at that point. 670 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,919 Speaker 1: But then you now have Hannah Guilly looped in through 671 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: her brother and that's tied to to Hannah Road, and 672 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 1: you know, I don't is that enough. I mean, you 673 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 1: know what if it comes out that and I know 674 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: we all we've all heard the theory from the from 675 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: the state at this point in time that this was 676 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: a concerted effort by four members of the Wagner family. 677 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: But you know what if it comes out that, you know, 678 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: Jake was truly the trigger guy, and you know the 679 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: rest are sort of on the periphery helping and supporting. 680 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,720 Speaker 1: You know, again, I mean, this is just me shooting 681 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: the breeze here about this, but you know it's just 682 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 1: you try to put yourself in that mindset of doing 683 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: what we know Jake did at this point in time, 684 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: and the result of whoever's actions, you still got eight 685 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: people dead and children laying in the blood and the 686 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 1: you know, the aftermath of that. It's a hell of 687 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: a situation over there. Will continue to monitor movements in 688 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: George Wagner's trial, as well as any developments regarding accused 689 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: father Billy Wagner and accused mother Angela Wagner. But while 690 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:57,759 Speaker 1: we wait, we want to turn our attention back to 691 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: the Michael Moran's story that we covered in episodes seven. 692 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: I really thought there was no way, there was no 693 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: way this could be going on for so long and 694 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: nobody did anything about it. One of the best lawyers, 695 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 1: and a politician and a sitting judge all possibly involved 696 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,479 Speaker 1: in this network. That's how deep this went, and that's 697 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 1: when we knew we needed to get more women who 698 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 1: had been through this experience to talk about what they 699 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:29,919 Speaker 1: said they'd been through with Michael Marion. We'll have part 700 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: two of that next week. For more information on the 701 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 1: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie 702 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: Underscore Studios. The piked and massacre returned to Pike County 703 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 1: is Executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong. 704 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional 705 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker and Chris Graves. The 706 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 1: Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County is a production 707 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more pod cast from 708 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 709 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Carol Fisher 710 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: and I'm hosting a podcast called The girl Friends. It's 711 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time 712 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 1: to find a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who 713 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,360 Speaker 1: were felt to be eligible bachelors. One of them was 714 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:30,760 Speaker 1: the spot Baronmout. On paper, he was perfect, but in reality, 715 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted and to the point 716 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: she went unconscious. I would call him and I would say, 717 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,279 Speaker 1: I know you killed my sister. You can listen to 718 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 1: The girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or 719 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. I want to learn how 720 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 1: to be a master of business without going back to school. 721 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: This summer, the Planet Money podcast is offering its very 722 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 1: own MBA. Enjoy classic Planet Money stories about the fundamentals 723 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,760 Speaker 1: of business, and here a fancy pants busines school professor 724 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: break down the concepts. Whether you want to start your 725 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: own side hustle or just survive in the job, you 726 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: have a little business know how will make you richer 727 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: at least a knowledge. Every Wednesday till Labor Day, Listen 728 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: to Planet Money from NPR on the iHeartRadio app or 729 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. These days, more often than not, 730 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 1: the success of a company is attributed to its founder. 731 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 1: But that's only part of this story. My name is 732 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 1: Noah Callahan Bever and I'm proud to present Idea Generations 733 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: All Angles, a Willpacker media podcast. We'll be talking to 734 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 1: all the key players from all your favorite brains like 735 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,319 Speaker 1: Loud Records, Ghetto Gastro and Earn your Leisure. So join 736 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: me each week as we dissect the most dynamic companies 737 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,240 Speaker 1: and culture. Because the only way to truly understand success 738 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 1: is to look at it from all angles. Listen new 739 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,840 Speaker 1: Idea Generations All Angles on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, 740 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, and welcome to 741 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,760 Speaker 1: Bad Manners. This is the podcast that takes you inside 742 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,360 Speaker 1: Britain's stately homes and tells all the tales the guide 743 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 1: books don't. My name is Tom Horton and I'll be 744 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 1: your post why. I'm on a mission to find out 745 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 1: the frightening, filthy and downright jaw dropping stories of these 746 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: stately homes and the people in there. Listening to bad 747 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: Manners on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you 748 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: get your podcasts.