1 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: Hey, folks, it it's Friday, January sixteenth, and when you 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 1: hear that a woman was stabbed more than twenty times, 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: but her death has ruled a suicide, you're gonna have questions. 4 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: But now here we are, fifteen years after the death 5 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,279 Speaker 1: of Ellen Greenberg, the federal government seems to have some 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: questions about this too. Finally, and with that, welcome to 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: this episode of Amy and TJ. Fascinating case. That's the 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: first question, how is it possible that someone who is 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:33,919 Speaker 1: stabbed twenty times you're going to tell me that's a suicide. 10 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 2: Yes, And imagine being the parents of Ellen Greenberg and 11 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 2: you find out that your twenty seven year old daughter. 12 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 3: Who is seemingly happy, engaged. 13 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:46,200 Speaker 2: She has a fiance, she's a school teacher, that all 14 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 2: of a sudden she is found in her kitchen in 15 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,480 Speaker 2: Philadelphia with all of these stab wounds, including a ten 16 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 2: inch knife in her chest. That she died by suicide 17 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 2: and not by homicide. That has never sat well with 18 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,119 Speaker 2: her parents, who have said, our daughter did not commit suicide. 19 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,559 Speaker 2: We know that she was murdered. However, her official cause 20 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 2: of death is suicide. 21 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: To anybody with common sense, that just doesn't make sense 22 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: now you're curious and you want to hear some more answers, 23 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 1: and we'll get into some of the back and forth. 24 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 1: But one medical examine the rules it a homicide and 25 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: comes back and said a suicide, and then another group says, no, 26 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: we think it's a suicide. Then another group says, so 27 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,279 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of back and forth. The official ruling, 28 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: we should say is in fact that she died by suicide. 29 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: There has, at least as far as I have seen robes, 30 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: never actually had a suspect, never had anybody under investigation 31 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 1: in this case, in concluding the fiance. 32 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 2: And that's a problem for the parents. And they feel 33 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 2: like and they have said, this is a victory for 34 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 2: them because this week on Thursday, we are talking almost 35 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 2: fifteen years to the day, because Ellen Greenberg died on 36 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: January twenty six, twenty eleven. But on Thursday, the US 37 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 2: Attorney's Office issued subpoenas around this case. They are apparently 38 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 2: opening an inquiry into whether Ellen Greenberg's death was properly investigated. 39 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: And that's important because they're not necessarily going back and 40 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 2: saying we're going to change or potentially change her manner 41 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 2: of death. But what they're doing is they're saying this 42 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 2: investigation possibly was not conducted properly. The family has said 43 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: the investigation was botched from the beginning. They're mincing no words, 44 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 2: but apparently the US Attorney's Office is seeking documents from 45 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 2: the Philadelphia Police Department and other agencies. 46 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 3: That's the information we receive. 47 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: You have to ask why, why now? And if you're 48 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: not looking into the actual death, why are you looking 49 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: into the investigation of her death? So this looks like 50 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: they're looking into this is a corruption exactly right, So 51 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: why that? Now? For the family, you have to go, Okay, 52 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: if this came across their desk, what else is coming? 53 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: This is our case. So even if they I bet 54 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 1: the family's been screaming this. So I bet even if 55 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: they don't get a change in the ruling of the 56 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: manner of her death, to hear that maybe there was 57 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,119 Speaker 1: some wrongdoing that led to an extended amount of pain 58 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: that their family didn't need to go through, who knows. 59 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, think about this now. 60 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 2: It's hard enough to lose a child, period, but to 61 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: have her death be unexplained, or at least for you 62 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 2: not to feel like you actually know what happened to 63 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: your daughter. That's a whole other level of pain and 64 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: torture on top of the death itself. This is the 65 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: statement the official statement from the family after the announcement of. 66 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 3: This inquiry. So here's what they said. 67 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 2: The prospects of the federal United States attorneys investigating any 68 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 2: aspect of Ellen's murder is a dream come true for 69 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 2: her parents, Sandy and Josh. We have only wanted justice 70 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: for Ellen and now have renewed hope this will occur. 71 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 2: Sandy and Josh and their lawyers will continue to pursue 72 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 2: and support all avenues to secure justice in this matter. 73 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 3: That makes sense. 74 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,119 Speaker 1: What is how is it pot What does justice now 75 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: look like? They didn't like the investigation or is it 76 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: your understanding as well, ropes they didn't like how it 77 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 1: was conducted, or just they didn't like the conclusion. It 78 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: almost SPADs like it's two different things, right. 79 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 2: I mean to think that her death, and we'll get 80 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 2: into the details of it, was initially ruled a homicide 81 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 2: for obvious reasons, but two weeks later they changed it 82 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: to suicide, and so that doesn't seem like a lot 83 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 2: of time. But we'll get into the why and how 84 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 2: this all happened. The details of her death as we 85 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: know them. She was found by her fiance on January 86 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 2: that was January twenty sixth, correct, twenty eleven. 87 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 3: He said he found. 88 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 2: Her in the kitchen of their home, slumped on the 89 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 2: floor against the kitchen cabinets. He said that she had 90 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 2: been stabbed at least twenty times, including and this is 91 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 2: the thing that gets me, ten times in the back 92 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: of her neck. And when he found her, she still 93 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: had a ten inch knife lodged in her chest. 94 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: Okay, it's not for most folks you hear that. Okay, 95 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: obviously she was murdered. It's just not possible. But then 96 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: they started adding, let's before we even get into the 97 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: stab wounds. I mean, there was no what is it, 98 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:24,799 Speaker 1: no sign of forced entry and the place was locked. 99 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: There was no sign of a struggle, There was no 100 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: evidence of anybody else being in that. 101 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 2: House, and there was no defensive wounds. Yeah, when you 102 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 2: say no sign of struggle, but to have no defensive 103 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 2: wounds and we'll get into what the one of the 104 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 2: medical examiners said that they described the stab wounds as 105 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 2: hesitation wounds. So this is what all led to their 106 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: conclusion ultimately that there was a suicide, not a homicides 107 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 2: because the door I would say a big part of 108 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 2: this was that the door was locked from the inside. 109 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 2: But this is all according to the fiance, and the 110 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 2: investigators did a you know, did their due diligence, and 111 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: of course he would have been someone they would have 112 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 2: wanted to talk to immediately, because we know from crime stories, 113 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 2: if someone's murdered, you look at the person who reports 114 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 2: to love that. 115 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: Now this is one that oh look, we deal with 116 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: and cover a lot and watch a lot when it 117 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: comes to crime. Always, no matter where he was on 118 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: planet Earth, if his fiance ends up dead, he is 119 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: in that moment. So I suspect number one, no matter where 120 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: he is. You add to that, you're the one that 121 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: reports that she has died. You're nobody else is around 122 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: and you found her all Now they're really the zeroing 123 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: in on you. So robes for them to say he 124 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: has been cleared, then you know they gave him all 125 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: kinds of scrutiny. 126 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 2: Yes, unless there was corruption involved at some level like that, 127 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: you know, that's those are some of the. 128 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 3: Questions, right. 129 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: The question is the cover up to possibly cover this guy? 130 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 3: One knows? 131 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean so here's what's changed, because something did 132 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 2: change in Jaianuary of twenty twenty five, so exactly one 133 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 2: year ago. Doctor Marlon Osborne, that is the pathologist who 134 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: performed the original autopsy on Ellen. He said in a 135 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 2: sworn statement this Ellen's manner of death should be designated 136 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 2: as something other than suicide. A little ambiguous, but certainly 137 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 2: a reverse from what he had said originally. Now a 138 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 2: month after this, so, in February of twenty twenty five, 139 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 2: the city of Philadelphia reached a settlement with the Greenbergs, 140 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 2: and so they paid the family six hundred and fifty 141 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 2: thousand dollars and agreed to an independent review of their 142 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: daughter's autopsy, and in exchange, the family the parents dropped 143 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 2: their lawsuit against the city. So that all happened in 144 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 2: February of twenty twenty five, following this sworn statement by 145 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 2: the original pathologist who conducted the original autopsy. 146 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 3: Does that move the needle free in any way? 147 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: No, It's one of those things. If there is a 148 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: medical professional, I need to hear the answer as to why. 149 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: If there is a medical professional who looks at a 150 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: case in which somebody was stabbed twenty times and said 151 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: it was a suicide. I obviously have another question, and 152 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: some of them have been answered. I haven't done a 153 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: deep enough dive, done a deep enough dive into this case. 154 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: But you hear another. I think it's just impossible. Robes 155 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: for medical professional, you have to they know something. I 156 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,599 Speaker 1: don't know right to call this a How are you 157 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 1: going to convince me it's a suicide? She's gotta stabbed 158 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: twenty times? 159 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 2: It is? 160 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: There is where I guess some context is needed for 161 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: what a stab wound is and how it's classified and 162 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: how it's characterized. Sometimes I hear stab wound, we generally 163 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: think we know what that means. But like you said, 164 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 1: some of these were They said they considered them to 165 00:08:55,200 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: be attempts practices, hesitation wounds. That's still a tough cell. 166 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 2: It's so tough. Here's another wrinkle. So in twenty twenty 167 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 2: four Pennsylvania, a court in Pennsylvania acknowledged serious flaws in 168 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 2: the investigation into her death. It dismissed a lawsuit that 169 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 2: the parents brought to try and change her death certificate. 170 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: They wanted to change the death certificate from suicide to homicide, 171 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 2: so they sued Pennsylvania. The court refused to change the 172 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 2: death certificate, but in their ruling acknowledged that the investigation. 173 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 2: So they said, the court wrote that it was acutely 174 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 2: aware of the deeply flawed investigation conducted by city police 175 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 2: prosecutors and the City of Philadelphia Medical Examiner's office. 176 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:50,559 Speaker 3: That's a serious charge that. 177 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: A court in Pennsylvania put into a court filing about 178 00:09:55,600 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 2: this investigation. That's significant. 179 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: And I guess this is where and this is why 180 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: it's corruption coming into that. I don't know the motivation 181 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: for the corruption. 182 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 3: I don't either. 183 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: You're covering your own butts because you screwed up and 184 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: now you have to double and triple and quadruple down 185 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: on making sure nothing comes out. I don't know. Or 186 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: it could be an awful, unfortunate mess in which this 187 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: young lady was troubled in some way that people didn't realize. 188 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: She didn't know any other way out who. I haven't 189 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: seen any other explanation. Have you seen a lot about her? 190 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: I mean her family and friends. Would they say her 191 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: state was or mental state was? 192 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 2: Yes, so there is there was some information and we 193 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 2: can get into it that she may have been suffering 194 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 2: from anxiety at the time of her death, and that 195 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 2: anxiety came from. 196 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 3: Her work as a teacher. 197 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 2: Look, we don't know what she was going through, and 198 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 2: a lot of times people don't share with close family 199 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 2: and friends their actual problems or how they're truly suffering. 200 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 2: But it is a strange way. I think it's fair 201 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 2: to say everybody can agree that it is a very 202 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 2: bizarre way to die by suicide. 203 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 3: You can't question that after the fact. 204 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 2: But it just seems like, especially for me, the stabs 205 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 2: on the back of your neck, it's almost like suicide 206 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,719 Speaker 2: made to look like homicide. I don't I can't get 207 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 2: my head around choosing that method. 208 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: I didn't look and I haven't heard of a case 209 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: of anything like this possibly before. But that's just twenty 210 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: stable and then some of the number. I think later 211 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: on they came back and added, so we missed some wounds, 212 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: and so there was twenty plus in the back of 213 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: the neck. Now that we're concentrated, there wasn't if she 214 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, Robes, you make the argument, if she 215 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: was being attacked and stabbed, she didn't raise a finger 216 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: to fight back, and if she was incapacitated immediately, why 217 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: stabber in the back of the neck, roll her over 218 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 1: stabber in the chest. What'd you say? She was found how. 219 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 2: Sitting with her legs splayed out, slumped over with a 220 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 2: knife in her chest, up against kitchen cabinets. 221 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 3: It is tough, all right. 222 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: When we come back, we are going to tell you 223 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 2: the only public statement her fiance has ever made over 224 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 2: these past fifteen years publicly, and he made it actually 225 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 2: fairly recently to a news organization. Will tell you what 226 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 2: he had to say about the mysterious death of his fiance. 227 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: And welcome back everyone to this episode of Amy and TJ, 228 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 2: where we are talking about a mysterious death that happened 229 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 2: in twenty eleven twenty seven year old Ellen Greenberg. Her 230 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 2: death was ruled a suicide. However, she was found in 231 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 2: her Philadelphia kitchen with a ten inch knife in her 232 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 2: chest but more than twenty other stab wounds, including almost 233 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 2: a dozen in the back of her neck. Her parents 234 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 2: have never believed that she died by suicide, and now 235 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 2: late this week we got worried that the US Attorney's 236 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 2: Office is opening an inquiry into whether or not her 237 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 2: death was properly investigated. So they're not necessarily saying, hey, 238 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 2: we're here to find out how she died and to 239 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 2: potentially switch it to homicide from suicide. But they are acknowledging, 240 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 2: and a court last year also acknowledged that it appears 241 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 2: there were problems and perhaps bigger issues when it came 242 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 2: to how police and the Medical Examiner's office actually investigated 243 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 2: this case. 244 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: And for that that represents hope for the family of 245 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: some kind of they haven't had for coming up on 246 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: twenty years. Right, it's been fifteen years, and to them, 247 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 1: they still don't know how their daughter died and somebody 248 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: who's running around out there who killed her? 249 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and that is what they believe. Now we 250 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 2: should point out you said this earlier before the break. 251 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 2: The fiance, Sam Goldberg was never a suspect. He has 252 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: never been charged. He is the one who found her, 253 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: he said. He told investigators that the lock on the 254 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 2: door was latched from the inside, but he has never 255 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 2: again been accused of any wrongdoing. This past fall, in September, 256 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 2: Hulu did a whole documentary on her death, and they 257 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: did raise questions about his actions, including a nine to 258 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 2: one to one call where apparently he told dispatchers that 259 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 2: his fiance had fallen on a knife. 260 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 3: So he has obviously been cleared. 261 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 2: I'm sure he's been grilled, investigated everything. 262 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 3: You might imagine. 263 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 2: If you're the fiance who finds your partner in this 264 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 2: condition and you're the only one who saw her, and 265 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 2: you're the only and you're the one who found her, 266 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: of course you're going to be scrutinized significantly by police. 267 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: Imagine the detectives that got that call. Oh, she's been 268 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: stabbed twenty times. The fiance found her. Gonna be a 269 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: short knife us. 270 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, we got our guy. Yeah, that's what they would have. 271 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 3: I mean, that would be the immediate, first drawn conclusion. 272 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 2: So but the only time he has ever spoken publicly 273 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 2: was in twenty twenty four, and it was to CNN, 274 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 2: and here is his quote. And this is really interesting. 275 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 2: Mental illness is very real and has many victims. I 276 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 2: hope and pray that you never lose someone you love 277 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: like I did to a terrible disease and then be 278 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 2: accused by ignorant and misinformed. 279 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 3: People of causing her death. Year was that twenty twenty four. 280 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 2: So on the same page the family, it doesn't seem 281 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 2: as though. 282 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: He's accepted that she killed herself. 283 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 2: Yes, and he is acknowledging that he has been in 284 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 2: some online circles and certainly potentially even with the family 285 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 2: considered possibly responsible for her death. He understands what some 286 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 2: people are saying, and especially after this Hulu documentary, a 287 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 2: lot of people if you go online, Reddit, forums, et cetera. Oh, 288 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 2: they think he's absolutely the guy. There are so many 289 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 2: conspiracy theorists out there, and look, I get it, I mean, 290 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 2: it makes sense, but he is living under that scrutiny. 291 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 2: I'm sure he would welcome this investigation if he wants 292 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 2: his Look, he has been cleared officially, but unofficially he hasn't, 293 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 2: and so that has to weigh on him. Wow, in 294 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 2: so many ways, everywhere he goes throughout his life, people 295 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 2: might just question him, and that has to be a 296 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 2: terrible cloud to live under. 297 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: That's tough. That's tough. But what an awful story you've 298 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: made me want to look into this one a little 299 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: more and see some of those reports and see some 300 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: like you said, her family their team put out their own, yes, 301 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: draw up drawings of you showed it to me, like, 302 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: holy hell, if this is how she was stabbed. 303 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, if you look, you can look, you can google 304 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 3: it pretty easily. 305 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 2: But they had their own private investigator actually put knives 306 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 2: where all of her stab wounds were and the depth 307 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 2: at which the blade went in, and it was this 308 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 2: independent investigator's opinion that especially a couple of the knive wounds, 309 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 2: the stab wounds that went into the back of her neck, 310 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 2: would have incapacitated her. That they went in deep enough 311 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 2: where it would have hit her brain, she would not 312 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 2: have been able to then give that final stab in 313 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 2: the chest where the knife ended up. 314 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 3: So they are absolutely of the. 315 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 2: Belief that she was murdered and not she did not 316 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 2: die by suicide. Look, we may never know, but this 317 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 2: new inquiry could give us some answers or at least 318 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 2: some insight into the process. And we will be sure 319 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 2: to follow this story and give you any updates as 320 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 2: they become available. 321 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 3: But in the meantime, thank you so much for listening 322 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 3: to us. 323 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 2: As always, guys, I'm Amy Roboch alongside TJ. 324 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 3: Holmes. We will talk to you soon.