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Speaker 1: A media Oh my gosh, welcome back to Behind the Bastards,

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Speaker 1: a podcast that recently also pivoted to video, but not

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Speaker 1: this week. For me. You are seeing, Jason, You're seeing

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Speaker 1: some sort of animated version of me right now, because

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Speaker 1: every week my camera does something different for reasons that

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Speaker 1: are unfathomable to me and deeply frustrating. I love pivoting

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Speaker 1: to video, Jason. That's something you and I both have

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Speaker 1: great experiences with, and it's working really well.

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Speaker 2: There's a wonderful little lesson here, listeners, Because Robert is

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Speaker 2: using a very fancy actual camera, the type of which

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Speaker 2: you would use to film a professional video. I am

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Speaker 2: using a fifty dollars Logitech web camera that has no

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Speaker 2: buttons on it. There's not a single button there. Software

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Speaker 2: that operates great. No, I can't do I can't screw

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Speaker 2: up the setup of it because I never did anything.

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Speaker 2: I plugged in the little USB cord and I appear

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Speaker 2: if anything else other than that had happened, I would

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Speaker 2: have been helpless.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's how we used to do things before

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Speaker 1: we recorded video, and it looked fine, and then we

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Speaker 1: got a camera that also looked fine but breaks periodically.

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Speaker 1: Because I don't know why anyway, Jason, do you think

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Speaker 1: we should bomb all of the power plants and return

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Speaker 1: to living in caves like our ancestors fighting bears for

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Speaker 1: scarce resources.

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Speaker 2: Those are my favorite social media accounts that talk about

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Speaker 2: like we need to get back to when we are

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Speaker 2: all just each growing our own food. That's when the

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Speaker 2: standard of living was higher. Back we all when one

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Speaker 2: blight could wipe out your crops and your whole family

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Speaker 2: would start.

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Speaker 1: It's the fact of that. I just it would be

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Speaker 1: so much more refreshing to deal with a bear right

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Speaker 1: now than a camera. I understand a bear right.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: Bears are are very easy. They have very very obvious

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Speaker 1: ONTs and needs. I don't have to figure out how

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Speaker 1: a shutter works for a bear. I just have to

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Speaker 1: figure out how to get higher than the bear, or

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Speaker 1: hide my food in a big barrel, or have like

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Speaker 1: spears and hide around a fire. I think we should

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Speaker 1: replace all of our technology with bears, Jason, is kind

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Speaker 1: of where I land on this on this journey, Like

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Speaker 1: what if instead of you know, for example, kids using

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Speaker 1: chat GPT to do their college essays, they just brought

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Speaker 1: bears to school and we let the bears fight it out.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's a better world.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's my understanding that that's how the Soviet

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Speaker 2: Union worked for centuries, is an entirely bear based society

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Speaker 2: based on the various cartoons I saw.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what Marx was really working at, was getting

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Speaker 1: getting us all back to a foundation of bears. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: I don't know why we got off on the tangent, Jason,

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Speaker 1: are you ready to hear more about how eBay just

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Speaker 1: absolutely loses its mind and has a former CIA guy

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Speaker 1: try to destroy the lives of a nice elderly blocker couple.

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Speaker 2: Yeah right, here's where this becomes one of the weirdest

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Speaker 2: stories I've heard in my entire life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's and more well just actually that, but

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Speaker 1: there's a lot there when we come back from the

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Speaker 1: cold open, and we're back from the cold open, so, Jason,

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Speaker 1: a mega corporation like eBay makes a lot of enemies,

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Speaker 1: and the Steiners are not the only people on Devin

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Speaker 1: Winnigs shit list. However, his shit list was entirely, weirdly,

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Speaker 1: freakishly petty, one of the people he hated most, the

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Speaker 1: only guy really at the same level on this as

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Speaker 1: the Steiners on Devin shitlist was an anonymous Twitter account

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Speaker 1: called Fido Master aka at unsuck eBay. Now, you and

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Speaker 1: I have dealt with this guy all our lives. Right

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Speaker 1: this is an angry dude online who hates you, specific

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Speaker 1: for reasons that are complex and deeply personal, in Fido

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Speaker 1: Master's case, based on some stuff he's made public. Because

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Speaker 1: we actually don't know who this guy is. His wife

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Speaker 1: used to sell things on eBay and got angry at

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Speaker 1: company policies, and so he just decided to become their

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Speaker 1: loudest hater on Twitter. Now I'm saying this. When I

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Speaker 1: say a hater, I don't mean like, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: people right now, there's a whole industry, and like there's

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Speaker 1: there's a bunch of guys who make all of their

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Speaker 1: money now that Musk has monetized Twitter, like sharing different

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Speaker 1: clips of different right wing grifters that they hate, and

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Speaker 1: like those guys exist on the right too. There's like

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Speaker 1: entire accounts dedicated to Joe Biden or like libs of

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Speaker 1: TikTok and stuff where they're monetized hating accounts. That's a

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Speaker 1: sizable chunk of Like how you make money in Internet

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Speaker 1: content is like picking one person or a specific group

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Speaker 1: of people, grabbing clips of them doing stuff out in

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Speaker 1: the world and then just being a hater and a

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Speaker 1: lot of that stuff. It's not it's you know, we

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Speaker 1: can argue about what it says about humanity that it's

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Speaker 1: so profitable, but it's profitable because millions of people engage

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Speaker 1: with that content, right. They listen to it, they read it,

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Speaker 1: they share it. It's extremely popular stuff, Fio Master.

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Speaker 2: Our internet economy would collapse if that personality type disappeared.

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Speaker 2: We really need them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a solid forty percent of Silicon Valley's

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Speaker 1: money is related in one or another. Did that kind

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Speaker 1: of guy? Fido Master is not really that kind of

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Speaker 1: an account. Most of his posts about eBay when in

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Speaker 1: the period where he becomes like the obsessive focus of

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Speaker 1: a lot of the CEO's anger, get like a dozen likes. Right, Yet,

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Speaker 1: for reasons unknown, the entire c suited eBay kind of

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Speaker 1: pivoting off of Devon's obsession, came to believe that Fido

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Speaker 1: Master had dominated the social media narrative around the company,

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Speaker 1: that this guy is like has influenced how everyone online

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Speaker 1: is talking about eBay because of his insidious posting skills. Now,

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Speaker 1: I have not seen any evidence whatsoever that this guy

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Speaker 1: harmed eBay's bottom line in any way. And like with

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Speaker 1: the Steiners, at least you can say, yes, there were

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Speaker 1: people at Elliott Management and other big investment funds who

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Speaker 1: took seriously what the Steiners were saying. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that's really true of anyone. For Fido Master, he just,

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Speaker 1: for whatever reason, winning can't get over the fact that

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Speaker 1: there's this hater on eBay talking shit about how he's

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Speaker 1: running the company.

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Speaker 2: I'm telling you, this kind of paranoia has been everywhere

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Speaker 2: since Twitter came along. There are companies that had entire

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Speaker 2: meetings with all of their executives over how over they

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Speaker 2: had rolled out some product or some ad campaign about

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Speaker 2: They were having a meeting with their their PR people

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Speaker 2: everybody else about the backlash we're getting on Twitter. We're

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Speaker 2: getting canceled on Twitter, when what they were talking about

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Speaker 2: was a total of three people complaining and each of

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Speaker 2: their each of their tweets got four likes. But the

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Speaker 2: perception that, oh my gosh, we're getting canceled on Twitter.

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Speaker 2: People used to be and maybe still are that used

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Speaker 2: to be so scared of that that they would immediately

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Speaker 2: fire somebody or immediately pull the ad whatever based on

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Speaker 2: the meager's tiniest little bit of criticism on there. So

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Speaker 2: I can totally see how they got freaked out by it.

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Speaker 1: And it's it's the same like as journalism has gotten

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Speaker 1: to haul that out as an injury as an industry.

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Speaker 1: There's like a lot of political journalism as just leftists,

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Speaker 1: Like look at this new trend that's spreading among leftists,

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Speaker 1: or look at this new trend spreading among Trump supporters,

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Speaker 1: And it's like, well, you got three Twitter accounts there,

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Speaker 1: You've got like a handful of posts a guy made

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Speaker 1: that might have just been a joke. And I haven't

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Speaker 1: seen any evidence that anyone did anything in the real

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Speaker 1: world as a result of this. But suddenly like this

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Speaker 1: is a trend, or this is a trend among gen

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Speaker 1: z because you found like a dozen kids joking about

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Speaker 1: it or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Like it does not take a dozen They can find

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Speaker 2: literally you can you read those articles they typic have

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Speaker 2: literally three examples. That seems to be the rule with

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Speaker 2: most newsrooms. If you can find three tweets, three tiktoks, whatever,

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Speaker 2: you can now say, well, there's a new trend among

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Speaker 2: gen z it's and they make up a name for it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: It's like, no, it was these three people who all

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Speaker 2: went to the same middle school.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And that kind of thinking is clearly at play

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Speaker 1: with Winning and with eBay's c suite here, right, every

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Speaker 1: regardless of how much actual engagement he's getting, because some

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Speaker 1: of Fino Master suites do get a lot more engagement,

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Speaker 1: but there's no evidence even the ones that do are

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Speaker 1: moving the needle for eBay. What moves the needle for

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Speaker 1: eBay is the c suite wasting a shitload of money

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Speaker 1: and not adequately responding to the fact that Amazon is

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Speaker 1: starting to eat their lunch. Right, But that would require

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Speaker 1: like them to take a hard look at how they

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Speaker 1: actually function as executives as opposed to just obsessing over

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Speaker 1: this Twitter account.

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Speaker 2: So you're seeing the same thing with Hollywood today, where

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Speaker 2: there will be some movie that they spent three hundred

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Speaker 2: million dollars on based around a comic book character nobody

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Speaker 2: had ever heard of, and bombs and then somebody there

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Speaker 2: in the studio will say, well, you know what it was.

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Speaker 2: It was all these trolls on Twitter, these these right

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Speaker 2: wing trolls. It's like, man, they can't sink a blockbuster movie,

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Speaker 2: these twenty five trolls on Twitter, they cannot sink a franchise.

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Speaker 2: You did that, You did that.

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Speaker 1: Yep, and it's a I mean, I don't know. I've

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Speaker 1: been kind of shocked at the reaction to The Acolyte

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Speaker 1: because I watched that and like I didn't like it

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Speaker 1: as much as I liked and or, but like it

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Speaker 1: struck me as like, oh, if you're someone who's into

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Speaker 1: like the classic Star Wars stuff, the Jedi and the Lightsabers,

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Speaker 1: this seems like it has everything you want. Some of

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Speaker 1: the best choreographed fights I've ever seen. The whole thing

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Speaker 1: looks great, some decent performances like but no, just the

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Speaker 1: reaction to it is this is the biggest disaster in

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Speaker 1: Disney history, and a lot of it just seems to

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Speaker 1: be because like people on Twitter got angry at.

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Speaker 2: It, maybe, but also that show cost six hundred thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars per y minute right of screen time, Like like

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Speaker 2: you can say, well, it's all these backlash from these jerks,

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Speaker 2: Like if the show had been good and if you'd

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Speaker 2: kept it on some sort of a reasonable budget, you've

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Speaker 2: been fine. It's you know, like the backlash was there,

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Speaker 2: but if anything, had just made the show more visible.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, anyway, anyway, fascinating stuff. And yeah, so this

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Speaker 1: is you know, we're talking about kind of how it's

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Speaker 1: written large with these massive Hollywood productions and stuff. But

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Speaker 1: what we're seeing in eBay is like how these obsessions

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Speaker 1: actually spread within the heads of the people running these companies.

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Speaker 1: And I do think it's kind of worth making the

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Speaker 1: comparison to like how corporations respond to some of these

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Speaker 1: like weirdly outlandish ways, to like Twitter trolling, because it

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Speaker 1: is the same like psychology on display at least. So

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Speaker 1: because Fido Master is an obsession to winning, he winds

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Speaker 1: up getting, you know, getting on Bog's plate. Right enough,

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Speaker 1: people who are one step below the CEO but a

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Speaker 1: step or two above Bog forward him like, Hey, the

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Speaker 1: boss is really freaking out about this guy. Here's another post.

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Speaker 1: You should really look into this guy. Right, And for

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Speaker 1: reasons that have never been explained to me, Bog becomes

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Speaker 1: convinced that Fido Master is not just some guy with

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Speaker 1: a grudge against eBay. It's Na Steiner or her husband David,

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Speaker 1: and they're running some sort of complex scheme whereby they

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Speaker 1: have both a blog where they publish very fair journalism

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Speaker 1: that's sometimes critical of eBay and this Twitter account that

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Speaker 1: just kind of trolls the company, and they're trying to

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Speaker 1: operate both in tandem to destroy eBay's profitability and personally

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Speaker 1: damage Devin Winning. Right. That is the theory that former

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Speaker 1: CIA operator fucking Jim Bog comes up with. And there's

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Speaker 1: no reason for him to think this. The writing is

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Speaker 1: not similar between the account and anything that stein Ena does. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and Bog has no evidence that there's like that the

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Speaker 1: posts are coordinated with the twi wheets or the articles

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Speaker 1: you're coordinated with the tweets. But based on just this

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Speaker 1: kind of feeling he has, he decides he calls this

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Speaker 1: former police captain that he has doing physical surveillance of

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Speaker 1: the Steiner residents and he says, I want you to

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Speaker 1: go onto their property at night and spray paint the

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Speaker 1: name Fido Master on the outside of their home because

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Speaker 1: that'll let him know we're onto their scheme.

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Speaker 2: So the idea was that this is going to prove that,

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Speaker 2: this will be showing them like, hey, we're onto you.

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Speaker 1: Right, we know what you're doing.

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 1: It's to prove it it's to.

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Speaker 2: Like smoke confused, must have been what must they have

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Speaker 2: thought that even was? I mean, I think he might

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Speaker 2: do it. He said he was ordered to do it.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't do it? Yes, yes, And I think if

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Speaker 1: I'm the Steiners at this point, my assumption would be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: maybe that's some like graffiti artist with a weird tag

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Speaker 1: and oh, Fido master, he tags freeways in a casion

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Speaker 1: suburban homes outside of Boston. It's his favorite thing, you'd.

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Speaker 2: Assume, or maybe it was slang or something. You would

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Speaker 2: never figure it out.

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Speaker 1: You would never assume this was done by a former

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Speaker 1: police captain on the orders of a former CIA operator

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Speaker 1: working directly for the c suited eBay, because that's insane.

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Speaker 2: So now the question is did that CEO who we

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Speaker 2: spent most of the last episode talking about, did he

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Speaker 2: know this occur? Or is there any way to know

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Speaker 2: like if this, if he did know, is something that

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Speaker 2: would have been said verbally in a hallway and not documented.

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Speaker 1: Somewhere, not in now a lot of messages get deleted,

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Speaker 1: So I guess the answer I would say is not

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Speaker 1: in a way that has been proven in court in

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Speaker 1: such a manner that it makes it legally obvious that

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Speaker 1: Devin Winning was responsible for this. Do I think it's

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Speaker 1: likely he had some awareness of what his security team

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Speaker 1: was doing. I think that's a fair thing to state.

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Speaker 1: But again, a lot of messages are not present, and

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Speaker 1: most of Bob does have some a good amount of

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Speaker 1: direct contact with Winnick, which is again he's not unaware

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Speaker 1: of aspects of this that he definitely knows about. Aspects

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Speaker 1: of this precisely what he knows about is a little

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Speaker 1: hard to say, right, because a lot of a lot

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Speaker 1: of who Bog is communicating with directly is like the

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Speaker 1: guy one step below the CEO.

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Speaker 2: Right. The fact that any of this made it into

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Speaker 2: an email tells you that Bog didn't know what he.

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Speaker 1: Was doing, right, of course, he's the worst at this.

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Speaker 1: It's unbelievably stupid, like shoddy.

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Speaker 2: I know, not to put that stuff in an email

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Speaker 2: that now somebody can recover that somebody like that's going

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Speaker 2: to come out, especially again, good God, in a work

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Speaker 2: email account.

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Speaker 1: Yeah it's yeah, it's it is. Yeah, it's unbelievable stuff.

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Speaker 1: So Bob followed this up with a campaign of harassment

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Speaker 1: against Fido Master's Twitter account, despite the fact that his

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Speaker 1: vaunted analyst team hadn't been able to uncover the account

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Speaker 1: owner's name from the New York Times quote, fido Master

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Speaker 1: received an unsolicited message from a new Twitter user calling

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Speaker 1: herself Marissa. Her picture showed her to be about twenty five.

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Speaker 1: Claiming to be a former eBay employee. She said she

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Speaker 1: possessed extremely damaging videos of executives misbehaving and wanted help

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Speaker 1: passing them to the Steiners. So they're like, will prove

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Speaker 1: that this guy is working with the Steiners by reaching

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Speaker 1: out to her and saying, we have like embarrassing videos

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Speaker 1: of eBay executives behaving badly, and we think you can

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Speaker 1: get these to the Steiners. So she's trying to fish

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Speaker 1: for fido Master to acknowlogy. Yeah, I know them. Fido

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Speaker 1: Master is like, well, it looks like miss Steiner has

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Speaker 1: a public email address for her public website. If you

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Speaker 1: want to get something to her, you should probably go

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Speaker 1: to her. I don't know her. Marissa's like, well, how

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Speaker 1: about it if I leave the videos on a thumb

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Speaker 1: drive at a hotel in the city of your choice

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Speaker 1: and you can deliver them to the Steiners. And photo

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Speaker 1: Master's like, well, no, that sounds incredibly shady. Why would

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Speaker 1: I ever do that? I don't know these people? What

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Speaker 1: is wrong with you? The wilder here suggestions got, the

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Speaker 1: more Phido Master resisted because whoever's running this account is

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Speaker 1: clearly like has above a room temperature IQ and it's

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Speaker 1: just like, well, no, so I don't know what's going on,

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Speaker 1: because no one would guess that what's going on is

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Speaker 1: what's going on here. But he has enough to know, like, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to do a dead drop of a

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Speaker 1: bunch of videos for you random person on Twitter who

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Speaker 1: thinks I know this lady. So he starts suggesting, just like, hey,

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Speaker 1: get a lawyer, Like, if you're worried that you'll be

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Speaker 1: harassed or attacked for having this information, like, talk to

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Speaker 1: a lawyer. I can't help you now. Marissa is in reality,

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Speaker 1: played by two of Bog's angels. As you may have

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Speaker 1: guessed by now, Bog's policy of hiring hot chicks did

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Speaker 1: not lead to him having a team that had particularly

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Speaker 1: good spy credentials. Veronica Zee, one of the young women

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Speaker 1: who played Marissa, had only used eBay once before being hired.

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Speaker 1: She had studied criminology in college, but had no relevant

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Speaker 1: job experience when she was hired at age twenty three,

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Speaker 1: And criminology degrees don't actually make people like tell people

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Speaker 1: how to carry out criminal espionage. That's not really like

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Speaker 1: why you get that degree. It's mainly to learn, well,

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Speaker 1: it's mainly to learn a lot of misinformation about blood

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Speaker 1: spatter and DNA. But like that's that's kind of beside

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Speaker 1: the point for now.

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Speaker 2: In shure, it's not sexist for us to point out

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Speaker 2: that his criteria for hiring these women was probably no.

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Speaker 1: Like that they're just all young women. No, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: it's just that like they don't I'm not saying that

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Speaker 1: they're dumb. I don't get that feeling. They just don't

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Speaker 1: have any experience committing illegal harassment campaigns, right, Like, they

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Speaker 1: don't have any kind of relevant job experience to this.

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Speaker 1: Like they're just ladies that he was attracted to and

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Speaker 1: he hired to stalk some strangers and they're not very

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Speaker 1: good at this, right, Like that's kind of the point.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, this is not like I think any I

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Speaker 1: will say, just based on how Jim and his former

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Speaker 1: police captain perform if they had hired a bunch of

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Speaker 1: men who thought that they would be really good at spies.

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Speaker 1: I don't think they would have been more competent in

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Speaker 1: this job because it's a dumb thing to be doing,

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Speaker 1: and no one was going to do this job very well.

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Speaker 1: So I should emphasize here that the unhinged paranoia and

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Speaker 1: rage over the Steiners and Fido Master was not just

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Speaker 1: contained to the CEO and his chief of security. On

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Speaker 1: June twenty fifth, twenty nineteen, Chief of Communication Steve Weimer

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Speaker 1: texted two eBay Communications employees about an e Commerce Fits

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Speaker 1: article that mildly noted some issues EBA had with a competitor.

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Speaker 1: The executive stated he could not complain about the article,

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Speaker 1: but then added, crazily love it when a secret we

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Speaker 1: can't speak it out loud plan comes together, and then

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Speaker 1: like a winking emoji and added we always reserve the

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Speaker 1: right to go zero to sixty and get crazy on

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Speaker 1: her ass. But this is a huge adjustment the last

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Speaker 1: month ever since the Walker's post, which is the post

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Speaker 1: about that bar that got created. So again they are

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Speaker 1: just putting this shit in messages right Like Steve Weimer is,

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Speaker 1: you know, part of the c suite. He's the chief

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Speaker 1: of Communications. He is the guy that Winnig is talking

357
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Speaker 1: to and then Wymer is communicating very directly with Bog

358
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Speaker 1: about all of the crimes that they're committing, and he's

359
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:19,800
Speaker 1: just like emailing back and forth like I love our

360
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,159
Speaker 1: secret plan. I can't wait to go zero to sixty

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Speaker 1: and get crazy on her ass.

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Speaker 2: And where's the voice of reason in this? Like this

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Speaker 2: has to be a corporate culture thing. Yeah, this is

364
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Speaker 2: why you can't whoever, I know not everybody's going to

365
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:40,200
Speaker 2: go down for this, but it's weird how nobody involved

366
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Speaker 2: is like, are we talking about the same thing? Are

367
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Speaker 2: you talking about the lady that the blogs about, the

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Speaker 2: the e sales seeing you guys are all yelling about

369
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:58,760
Speaker 2: you're really mad about something? Which poster? Are you really?

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00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,040
Speaker 2: I guess I missed it. I saw her like briefly

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Speaker 2: mentioned It's like, no, that's the one. We need to

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Speaker 2: fling her into a volcano.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this lady is our al Qaeda, Like we are

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Speaker 1: doing a war on terror against her.

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Speaker 2: It's so weird. There was something there with their corporate

376
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 2: with their corporate culture that was so weird.

377
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Speaker 1: It's a mix of I think you don't question the CEO,

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00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,120
Speaker 1: you don't question the executives, above you, and they don't

379
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,359
Speaker 1: question the people above them. So when you have a

380
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Speaker 1: guy like Winnig, who I think is just a really

381
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,640
Speaker 1: insecure person who's not used to any kind of criticism.

382
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 1: You know, he's kind of born rich. He gets to

383
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Speaker 1: become a CEO at age twenty three because his dad

384
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,320
Speaker 1: had had the job. I think he's just kind of

385
00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:52,199
Speaker 1: a petty person who's not very secure, And when you

386
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,359
Speaker 1: have this kind of corporate culture that is so personality driven,

387
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,119
Speaker 1: his characteristics get sort of filtered out to become characteristics

388
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,680
Speaker 1: of how the company operates, both in terms of who

389
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,960
Speaker 1: he hires, which are people that he feels sympatico with

390
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 1: and they feel pressured to act in ways that you

391
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,400
Speaker 1: know are going to be pleasing to him. I really

392
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Speaker 1: do think a lot of it comes down to that.

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Speaker 2: I hope I'm not just beating a dead horse here,

394
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,000
Speaker 2: because this is somebody who has lived in public is

395
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Speaker 2: running an internet company. I mean, how old were you

396
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 2: the first time somebody a stranger on the internet threatened

397
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,480
Speaker 2: violence against you for something you had readen or said.

398
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Speaker 1: Probably the first time I had a cracked article published,

399
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,200
Speaker 1: you know, when I was like nineteen, Yeah, maybe idear

400
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:40,960
Speaker 1: in arguments on something awful. I don't know.

401
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And they didn't invent the Internet until I

402
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,439
Speaker 2: was in my twenties. But it was within the first

403
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,880
Speaker 2: month of me getting my first Aol account that somebody

404
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,679
Speaker 2: told me they wanted me to die or they're going

405
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:55,439
Speaker 2: to come to my house and kill me, because of

406
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 2: a joke I had made. Like, I'm not condoning that behavior.

407
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:00,919
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, if you or if you live in

408
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 2: the public eye on the Internet, and you and I

409
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 2: have been now been doing it for most of our lives,

410
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,160
Speaker 2: that's just the way. That's the noise the Internet makes

411
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 2: at you. It's people telling you so the idea that

412
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,959
Speaker 2: he is so hyper sensitive to criticism, I don't know

413
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 2: how you can live to be aged twelve in the

414
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 2: Internet era without having a thick skin about people calling

415
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,399
Speaker 2: you all sorts of names. The fact that this person

416
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 2: lived to adulthood and lived in the public eye and

417
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 2: ran an Internet company one of the biggest names online

418
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,639
Speaker 2: and was not used to trolls or whatever, and so

419
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,719
Speaker 2: to the point that this incredibly mild criticism just sets

420
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 2: them all off. I even now you've told me every

421
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,160
Speaker 2: detail of this of the history, I still can't wrap

422
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:49,959
Speaker 2: my head around it.

423
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 1: I think it's because derangement is progressive and it is

424
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 1: like it's a like the derangement is like the pace

425
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 1: at which it can proceeds is accelerated by your access

426
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,239
Speaker 1: to power, right, Because that number one, it removes your

427
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 1: accountability and it's it's it's kind of like how if

428
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,439
Speaker 1: you only ever encounter cocaine at parties. You might do

429
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 1: cocaine at a couple of parties, but if you have

430
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,879
Speaker 1: a big bag of cocaine, you will go from when

431
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: I do cocaine, I do a line of it to

432
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 1: I am doing cocaine every hour of every day until

433
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 1: my heart explodes. Right, Because you just like and that

434
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 1: I think power like number one, there actually is some

435
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 1: like psychological science behind this, Like power is addictive in

436
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 1: ways that you can see if you just look at

437
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 1: the trajectory of a guy like Elon Musk. But it

438
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 1: also like I think this amount of wealth and power,

439
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 1: I think winning becomes less rational every month that he

440
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 1: is doing this, right, And I think that is true

441
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 1: of a lot of people if they don't have I

442
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,360
Speaker 1: think there are ways to protect yourself from this. One

443
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 1: of the ways that you can protect your whole organization

444
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: from this is by having safeguards and structures in it

445
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,719
Speaker 1: that are meant to add accountability and check power of

446
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 1: even the executives. Right Like, when you actually have functional safeguards,

447
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: it reduces the degree that you get deranged like this.

448
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: But eBay clearly doesn't have anything like that set up,

449
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: and so Winnig is just and everyone below him is

450
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 1: just spiraling. You know, That's really what this story is about.

451
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: And we'll talk more about their spiraling, but first listen

452
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: to our sponsors spiral on the ads. We're back. So

453
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 1: a month or two after Steve Weimer, chief of Communications,

454
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 1: sends that message to some of his employees about going

455
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,679
Speaker 1: crazy on ENA's ass in August first of twenty nineteen,

456
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: that New York Times published an article about a lawsuit

457
00:24:55,080 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: EBA had filed against Amazon for unlawfully poaching sellers. In

458
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 1: ENA's coverage of this article, she wrote about Winnig, saying

459
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: that he has quote been unable to stop at a

460
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: cline in market sales and that his plan to staunch

461
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: the bleeding by suing Amazon may not be the best tactic. Again,

462
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,959
Speaker 1: she's a very modestly spoken person, not a firebrand. But

463
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: Winnig is.

464
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 2: To a comical degree, right, like every quote you read

465
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 2: from her, it's.

466
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's remarkable. But Winnig, hearing this very reasonable statement,

467
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 1: immediately texts Steve Weimer, saying, Ina is out with a

468
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 1: hot piece on the litigation. If we are ever going

469
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 1: to take her down, now is the time? Why? Why

470
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: is now the time? How is that going to help you?

471
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: Devin Winnig. So you should note here that Winnig does

472
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: not order his underlings or anyone else to commit a crime.

473
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: He just says, if we're going to take her out,

474
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: we should do it now. Right, And Winnig's successful defense

475
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: of himself in this case hinges a lot on that.

476
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: Now Weimer his communications guy, who is I should note

477
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 1: the son and grandson of Baptist pastors. That's going to

478
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: be relevant. In the second repeats winnigs statement to Bog

479
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: Like Weimer. After Winnigs says this, if we're going to

480
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: take her out, we got to do it now, Weymer

481
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: messages Jim Bogg and says, this hatred is a sin

482
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: I am very sinful. Bog responds, let me ask you this,

483
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: do we need her entire site? Shut down. I'm not

484
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: fucking around here anymore. And Weimer responds, Amen, I want

485
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: her done. Bog says so and so that's that part

486
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 1: is censored. Said to burn her to the ground. Correct,

487
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: and Weimer responds, she is a biased troll who needs

488
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 1: to get all caps burned down. These are we have

489
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: like a direct copies of the text messages, so it

490
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: sounds like, you know, Weimer said, Hey, Winnig says we

491
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: can take her down now, and then he starts doing

492
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 1: all this biblical shit, hate your hatreds of sin, and

493
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: I'm very sinful, but we're going after her now. We're

494
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: gonna burn her down. And again, if your boss is

495
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 1: messaging you stuff like this, it's time to get another job,

496
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: like because you're going to get deposed about what he's

497
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: asking you to do.

498
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,719
Speaker 2: Unless he's talking about yes, let's go to legal and

499
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: see if we can get a cease and desist because

500
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: we think these claims are libelous or whatever. Yeah, because

501
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 2: I get it. Some some corporate people use language like

502
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 2: they're talking about going to war, We're gonna destroy it,

503
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 2: we're gonna burn it. But what they mean is we're

504
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 2: gonna call we're gonna get into a conference call with

505
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: the legal team and ask if we can send a

506
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 2: mean letter on lawyer letter head and see if that'll

507
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 2: scare her into shutting off her website like they use

508
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 2: the language they use, did not you know, wouldn't necessarily

509
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 2: convey to Let's send her a bloody pig mask now

510
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 2: spoiler alert.

511
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: Ye for where this is heading. So Bog does a

512
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: yes and to Wimer's like, we need to burn her down,

513
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 1: and it's like, Okay, I'm gonna execute Plan B and

514
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: Whymer promises Bog, I will manage any bad fallout right now.

515
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: This conversation seems to be the first time that bog

516
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: laid out to a superior his theory that the fido

517
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: Master account was either run by ENA's wife or ENA's

518
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: husband David Steiner, or quote another close associate, and he

519
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: then lied about the success of the catfishing attempt that

520
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 1: his employees had already botched, telling Wimer, we have further

521
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: reason to believe he Fido Master is either her husband

522
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: or another close associate. I've been communicating with him every day.

523
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: I told him I have an incriminating video that he

524
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: needs to see. He bid on it hook line and sinker.

525
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: I want to leave it at a hotel concierge for him.

526
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: If I can get him to pick it up. His

527
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: ass is mine. It is not, and like he didn't.

528
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: At no point was he ever falling along with this.

529
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: Bog is just kind of lying to his boss to

530
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: pump up his own competence. But the fact that Weimer

531
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: is like, Yep, this seems like a good plan. This

532
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: seems like a thing eBay should be doing. Again, he's

533
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: directly under winning. So in early August, Ina published yet

534
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: another article about winnigs ever increasing salary. The article was

535
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: again a perfectly normal example of her reporting, but eBay

536
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: leadership treated it like a death threat. Winnig, who I

537
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: should note this very year twenty nineteen, was voted number

538
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: one hundred on Forbes's list of America's most innovative leaders,

539
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: sent out an email to his C suite executives demanding

540
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: answers to the crucial emergency of an old lady and

541
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: her husband writing blog posts.

542
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 2: Per Yeah, at this point, does she even know they're

543
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 2: mad at them? I know she knows straight painted something

544
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: on her garage. It was inscrutable, But does she even

545
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 2: know that they're even reading her her website.

546
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: She knows they're reading her website because she's influential in

547
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: the industry. She has sources who work at eBay who

548
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: feed her info, so she's aware that her stuff is read. Yeah,

549
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: but she has no idea that any of this is

550
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: going on.

551
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 2: Because why would you ever think?

552
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,719
Speaker 1: No one would assume this. This is crazy. For what

553
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: happens next, I'm going to quote from CBS News is

554
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: write up here. eBay's chief communications officer, Steve Weimer wrote back,

555
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: we are going to crush this lady. About a month later, Winnick,

556
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: the CEO of eBay, texted, take her down, prosecutors say.

557
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: Steve Weimer later texted eBay security director Jim Bogg, I

558
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: want to see ashes as long as it takes whatever

559
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: it takes, which is a little further than like using

560
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: a war metaphor. Right now, bog sweating over Elliott management

561
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: scrutiny of corporate operations and eager to justify the expenses

562
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: of his branch of the company, leapt into action. He

563
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: shared Weimer's I want to see Ashes message with his

564
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: deputy David Harville, and added, I've been ordered to find

565
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: and destroy. Now all of this is really bad stuff

566
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: to have in writing if you are planning to commit

567
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: a bunch of crimes. But they apparently don't teach you that.

568
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: In the CIA, despite the graffiti, stalking, and phishing attempts,

569
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: neither the Steiners nor Fido Master had stopped their dastardly

570
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: behavior of right mean things about eBay. In email conversations, Winnig, Weimer,

571
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: and Bog lost their minds over the fact that Twitter

572
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: refused to remove Phido Master's account after they complained about it. Finally,

573
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: Weimer concluded an early August email by saying, this issue

574
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: gives me ulcers, harms employee morale, and trickles into everything

575
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: about our brand. I genuinely believe these people are acting

576
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: out of malice. In anything all caps we can do

577
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: to solve it should be explored Somewhere. At some point,

578
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: someone shows to let this slide. It has grown to

579
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: a point that is absolutely unacceptable. It's the blind eye

580
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: towards graffiti that turns into Mayhem syndrome, and I'm sick

581
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: about it. Whatever period it period takes period. So at

582
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: this point Bog has been told several times do literally

583
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: anything to stop these people, and he decides he responds

584
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: by asking, do I have permission to neutralize ENA's website?

585
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: I think I can do it in two weeks or less,

586
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: and Weimer again responds by saying, whatever it takes. So

587
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: what Bog takes from this is that I should sign

588
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: the Steiner's personal email accounts up for a bunch of

589
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: porn newsletters and other newsletters as well. He signs them

590
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: up for sin City Fetish Night, the Satanic Temples newsletter,

591
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: and the Communist Party newsletter for some reason, and then

592
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: Bog's chief aid, missus Pop, posts the Steiner's home address

593
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: on Twitter. This is the point at which the Steiners

594
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: may start to realize something's weird, like how do people

595
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: have our address? What the hell is going on? But again,

596
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: probably just think it's trolls and don't reckon that. Realize

597
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: certainly that all of these trolls are just one or

598
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: two people at eBay operating a bunch of burner accounts.

599
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: So miss if.

600
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: Somebody signed me up for a bunch of newsletters and

601
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 2: mailing lists, I would not notice whatsoever. That public Gmail

602
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 2: I use or the public inbox is just an ocean.

603
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 2: It's all breathing bought. So suddenly I'm getting something from

604
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: like the whatever they sign them up for a bunch

605
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 2: of porn stuff or whatever. Just like, yeah, that's that's

606
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 2: what my inbox looks like, Yeah, that's all. Yeah, there

607
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 2: is this actually less porn spam than what I had

608
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: last week. All right, we're getting better.

609
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, like yeah, like every red blooded American, my email

610
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: inbox is a mix of porn spam and price alerts

611
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: on Ammo. So yeah, like that's that's just kind of

612
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: the norm. So Miss Pop, who gets really into her

613
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: job stocking these people, sets up a Burner account with

614
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: a profile picture of a skull and pretends to be

615
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: an eBay seller who is angry at Ena Steiner for

616
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: hurting his business. She messages a bunch and Ina, being intelligent,

617
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: ignores the messages until Pop writes, I guess I'm going

618
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: to have to get your attention another way, bitch. What

619
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: followed is described later in the court case against bog

620
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: Pop and the rest of the eBay skulldugery team is

621
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: ordering quote, unwanted and scary items and services to the

622
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: Steiner's home, and ordering items intended to embarrass the Steiners

623
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: to their neighbor's addresses. Now that leaves out a lot

624
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: of context, and in an interview with CBS News, Ina elaborates, quote,

625
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: somebody left a voicemail for us saying they couldn't fulfill

626
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: the order for a wet specimen. And David was the

627
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: one who called, and he said, what is a wet specimen?

628
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: And it was a pig fetus. That's when I really

629
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: my heart sank because I thought who might be angry

630
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: at something I wrote? And I couldn't figure it out.

631
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: I mean, we were desperately trying to think who could

632
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: it be, because you would never guess it's the CEO

633
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: of eBay Sam through a complicated process, whose underlings are

634
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: sending me a pig fetus, because only a crazy person

635
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: would assume that.

636
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 2: And also that this guy thinks it's like in a

637
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 2: horror movie where the box is going to show up

638
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 2: on the door and she's going to open it up

639
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 2: and there's just going to be like a dead, slimy

640
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 2: pig fetus in there, where in reality it's like, well no,

641
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 2: there's all sorts of procedures ye specifically to stop this

642
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: from happening, because of course every weirdo is trying to

643
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,720
Speaker 2: send his x Y a pig fetus, like the company

644
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 2: that sells that stuff to whatever science classrooms, whatever, Like, yeah,

645
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 2: that's like forty percent of their orders, I'm sure, as

646
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 2: weirdos trying to send it just to an enemy. So yeah,

647
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 2: they've got a thing where they're gonna call the recipient

648
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 2: and say, hey, you know, we've got a procedure for

649
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 2: shipping these. Do you have a lab or whatever?

650
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: Right, and do you want a pig fetus?

651
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? Do you actually want to pig fetus or are

652
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 2: you one of the most of our orders? Whereas some

653
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,919
Speaker 2: some freak trying to send it to somebody they're they're

654
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: angry at.

655
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: It does show the very like Hollywood movie understanding of

656
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: how reality works, where it's like, yeah, we'll just have

657
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 1: a pig fate fetus maled to them. We're like, no,

658
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: that's not how these Someone is going to contact them

659
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: to ask if they want to take delivery of like

660
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: dead animal parts, Like, they don't just drop that off

661
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: in front of your house in an unmarked package. You

662
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: have to do that yourself if you want to male

663
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: people dead animal bits. Trust me, I have done it anyway.

664
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: I did. Jason one time from a fan receive an

665
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 1: enormous pint glass filled with like penis stones from like

666
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 1: animals that get like built calcium build ups inside their

667
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,919
Speaker 1: urinary tracts. There's like an elephant one in there that's

668
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: the size of like a fucking almost the size of

669
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: a pool queue. So, but that was someone who liked me.

670
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 1: I don't know why they sent that, but it's nice

671
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: to have.

672
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 2: Oh, to be clear, there's nothing I could receive in

673
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 2: a package that would make me think somebody hated me.

674
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 2: If somebody sent me a dead rat, i'e immediately think, yeah,

675
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,479
Speaker 2: I think, I think I put this in a book.

676
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 2: This must be a reference to something that happened in

677
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 2: one of the books.

678
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 1: It's clearly a fan.

679
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a sprobably fan. And somebody at last Christmas

680
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 2: sent me some some cookies and I ate them like

681
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 2: it's probably fine like that. They surely don't want me dead,

682
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,359
Speaker 2: they probably yeah, yeah, So no, I didn't didn't think

683
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 2: twice about it. No, And it's just so.

684
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: Strange, Ina, you know, they're just kind of baffled by

685
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: the pig feetus thing. But then on August tenth, at four,

686
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: a package containing a pig masked mask soaked in blood

687
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: arrives at the Steiner house. They received a Twitter DM

688
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 1: minutes later in all caps, saying do I have your

689
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 1: attention now?

690
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 2: Now?

691
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: The good news is that David and Nina had called

692
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: the police to make a report about the weird shit

693
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: that they were receiving, and an officer is on site

694
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 1: as the pig mask arrives. So I can tell you

695
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: from experience, having both had to report to police when

696
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: I have gotten death threats and who have tried to

697
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: walk people through it when they have been stalked by

698
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: different kind of terrorist groups, it is it can be

699
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: hard to get police to take cases like this seriously.

700
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 1: Online stalking and harassment often sounds like a joke until

701
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 1: it isn't. The Steiners are kind of lucky in that

702
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: there is an officer on scene when they receive the

703
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: package with this mask and the Twitter message, and the

704
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: cop both sees that as it's happening, and he sees

705
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: how scared they are and immediately is like, oh, this

706
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: is probably a serious issue, Like this is actually something

707
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: that we might need to deal with. So they get

708
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 1: kind of lucky there and the police start working, you know,

709
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: to their credit, they actually are really on the ball

710
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: in this specific case, and while they did that, Bog

711
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: and his team escalated their attacks on the Steiner family,

712
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 1: livid to the point of insanity that for all this

713
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: they still hadn't stopped blogging. So Bog sends the Steiners

714
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 1: the copy of a book titled Grief Diaries Surviving the

715
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: Loss of a Spouse, and then he sends them a

716
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: funeral wreath. Both Steiners at this point take this as

717
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 1: a death threat, and they do you give you an

718
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 1: idea what it is, because it is and because people

719
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: are messaging them saying you're going to die if you

720
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 1: don't stop doing this. So to give you an idea

721
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: of how seriously they take this, they start sleeping in

722
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,879
Speaker 1: separate beds so that if they're attacked in the night,

723
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: one of them has a chance to get away. So

724
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 1: this is not like like that's at that point you're

725
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: doing psychological damage to people, right Like, this is not

726
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 1: just like weird any silly like harassment anymore. This is

727
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,959
Speaker 1: has crossed into being a very serious crime. Now, along

728
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 1: with the threats to life in Lim came a dizzying

729
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: barrage of pornography and insects. They repeatedly sent eBay repeatedly

730
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,399
Speaker 1: or security people at eBay repeatedly sent copies of a

731
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: barely legal addition of hustler that was like, just turned eighteen,

732
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 1: look at this hot barely eighteen girl, right, And they

733
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: mailed it not to the Steiners but to their neighbors,

734
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: but addressed to David Steiner. I think to try and

735
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: convince his wife that he was looking at barely legal

736
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: pornography but didn't know his own home address. I'm not

737
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: really sure how she hoped this, or maybe to convince

738
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: the neighbors of the Steiners that David was into barely

739
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: legal pornography. It's a little unclear to me how the

740
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 1: best case scenario for this caper.

741
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's supposed to be like embarrass them with the neighbors.

742
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 2: And I'm just imagining a husband and wife at the

743
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 2: neighbor's house and the woman is like, oh my gosh, this.

744
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 2: I think that the guy, the man living extra him,

745
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 2: I think he might be looking at pornography, and the

746
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 2: dude just like, yes, that is a shocking thing. Yeah,

747
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 2: to accuse a man of.

748
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: I have had a neighbor admit to me to being intovar,

749
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: which is like pooring of like being an animal that's

750
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: eaten by other anthropomorphic animals like this is the eighteen

751
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: year old, barely legal issue of Hustler does not even like,

752
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: does not cross the boundary of being like I would

753
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: be worried if a neighbor got this at their house.

754
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 2: The freakiest part is that he's still doing like analog

755
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 2: magazine porn. That's like the most perfect thing. I can

756
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 2: imagine that you're you paid like like eight dollars for

757
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 2: a like twenty three photos in it.

758
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, all right, David, could you come over here.

759
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: We're not angry, We're not angry, but I just wanted

760
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 1: to do you know about the internet? Can I Can

761
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 1: I walk you through this thing? Because there's a lot

762
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: of options besides having a Hustler maga mailed to your

763
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: house today. Actually, yeah, anyway, it doesn't work, but you

764
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: know it does work Jason advertising theoretically. Anyway, here's ants

765
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 1: and we're back. So, in addition to copies of the

766
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: barely legal issue of Hustler, the like Boggs team starts

767
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: mailing fly Larva, live spiders, and boxes of cockroaches to

768
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: the Steiner home. Now at this point, the police set

769
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: up cameras to survey, like what's happening, you know, for

770
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: obvious reasons, but this only provides them footage at first,

771
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: with bewildered delivery drivers shipping out insects, porn, and funeral

772
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 1: supplies online. Mis Pop continued her harassment of Ina, as

773
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 1: this section from The New York Times describes the Twitter bombardment,

774
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: began to hint at violence. When you hurt our business,

775
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 1: you hurt our families. People will do anything to protect

776
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: family for exclamation points again not even clear because they're

777
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,240
Speaker 1: not like highlighting this article, you did hurt my business

778
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 1: because INA's articles are not damaging the business of random

779
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 1: eBay people. Right, So all of this is just completely,

780
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 1: completely incomprehensible. And one of the things that is noted

781
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: in that New York Times article is that while all

782
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 1: of these unhinged messages and packages are being sent to

783
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 1: the Steiners. On his own Twitter account, mister Weimer evoked

784
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 1: Fred Rogers. He said a movie about the inspirational TV

785
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: personality made him cry, and he once retweeted mister Rogers's

786
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 1: line that if there's anything that bothers me, it's one

787
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: person demeaning another. But inside eBay, mister Weimer was goading

788
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: the harassment on I want to see ashes, he told

789
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: mister Ball on August eleventh, as long as it takes,

790
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 1: whatever it takes. Mister Baugh shared the message with his deputy,

791
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 1: David Harville, adding I've been ordered to find and destroy.

792
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 1: The next escalation in eBay's war on the Steiners was

793
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 1: to fly Bog and one of his analysts, missus miss Ze,

794
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,959
Speaker 1: first class, to Boston, where the Steiners lived. They checked

795
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: in at the Ritz and drove to the Steiner's home

796
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: to install a GPS device on their car. Alas Bog's

797
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 1: CEA CIA techniques were stemied by the unforseeable fact that

798
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: the Steiners used their garage as a garage. They were

799
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 1: not prepared for this. Who would be planting a GPS

800
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 1: device on someone's car because they wrote criticisms of eBay

801
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: is a crime on its own. But Bog knows the

802
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: key to being a good criminal is to never just

803
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: commit a couple of crimes at once. You want to

804
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 1: max out your crime yield so that the police get

805
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 1: overwhelmed by the density of illegality and shut down. Right.

806
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: That's that's how you beat the cops, is you just

807
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:49,479
Speaker 1: committed the Trumps method. It does actually work for some people. Yes,

808
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 1: Jim's just a little bit below that level of wealth

809
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 1: that he can't quite make it. So Jim buys a

810
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 1: crowbar to break into the Steiner's garaz alas for him

811
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: and his team. They get spotted by the cops. So

812
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: at this point had set up surveillance of the Steiner

813
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: home and they hear through this Gilbert, the police captain

814
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,439
Speaker 1: they're working with on the ground in Boston, here's through

815
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: an internet feed of the local police radio that like

816
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: the police are going to send a team over to

817
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: the Steiner house. So they decide to stop temporarily their

818
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 1: physical acts against Steiner property. But they did decide to

819
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,439
Speaker 1: order seventy dollars worth of pizza from a twenty four

820
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 1: hour pizzeria and have it sent to the Steiners at

821
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: four point thirty in the morning. So for the next

822
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: couple of days they continue with this juvenile shit. They

823
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: put up advertisements for estate sales at the Steiner residence.

824
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 1: They put up like a Craigslist post advertising a swinger

825
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 1: party there and say ring the doorbell any time of

826
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,879
Speaker 1: day or night, which shows a real swinger parties don't

827
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 1: work like that. You don't just see a Craigslist for

828
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: a random sex party at a person you don't know's

829
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: house and just show up. Maybe people did before HIV,

830
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: but that not the way the world works anymore.

831
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 2: Primarily, what was I never in the stuff I read?

832
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,760
Speaker 2: I never understood what was the end goal of trying

833
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 2: to put the tracker on the vehicle was? What was

834
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:14,959
Speaker 2: the point of that? What were they trying to find

835
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 2: out or what?

836
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: I think they were trying to get proof that Ena

837
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: was traveling to meet with Fido Master, and they were

838
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 1: hoping that they would find her drive to him, and

839
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,879
Speaker 1: then they could prove who Fido Master was and bring

840
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 1: down their whole criminal enterprise of being mean about eBay

841
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 1: on the internet. I don't I don't have a way

842
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 1: to make it make better sense to you than that.

843
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 2: Because he booked a flight to go do this like,

844
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 2: that's a that's a meeting, that's a discussion, that's a

845
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 2: paper trail, that's we're going here to do. We have

846
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 2: goals to accomplish with this trip and what they did

847
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:58,320
Speaker 2: once they were there. I'm not saying because they didn't

848
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 2: have a plan, It's just I can't figure out what

849
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 2: the plan was because again, all of this, I assume

850
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 2: is just to try to intimidate this couple into taking

851
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 2: their website down. But so far you've not even made

852
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:12,959
Speaker 2: it clear that that's what you want them to do.

853
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's you're just trying to scare them away from posting.

854
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,399
Speaker 1: But at no point have they received like a set

855
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: of demands. Because I know, if.

856
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 2: You send me a box of bugs and you want

857
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 2: me to piece together what I'm supposed.

858
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 1: To what am I supposed to do as a result

859
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: of these bugs? Which of my activities do you want

860
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 1: me to stop or do you think I need bugs?

861
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 2: Or which specific Like you've not made it clear you're

862
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 2: implying that a specific person because again they're not saying, hey,

863
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 2: we're here from eBay. It's kind of implied this is

864
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 2: on behalf of somebody else. So it's like, well, is

865
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 2: there a specific article you want me to take down?

866
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 2: Is there any traction you want me to post? What

867
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 2: did I do to giving them anything actionable?

868
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,240
Speaker 1: That's again this is a very like such a comprehensively

869
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,479
Speaker 1: incompetent effort, and part of you know, you can really

870
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 1: see the incompetence in the fact that so while they're

871
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 1: kind of waiting around. They get scared off from breaking

872
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: into the garage, but they keep showing up and doing

873
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: physical surveillance of the property because they don't have any

874
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 1: better ideas. While they're doing this kind of petty harassment,

875
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: And one day when they drive, when they're like stalking

876
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: them in a rental car, David Steiner gets a photo

877
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 1: out of his window of their rental car and he

878
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 1: sends it to the police, and the next time they

879
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: show up, an obvious undercover police car is parked out

880
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 1: by the house. Now, if I were doing this for

881
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: some reason, I would be like, oh shit, we've been made.

882
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 1: We should probably stop doing this.

883
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 2: Right.

884
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,439
Speaker 1: The police are taking this seriously and we clearly don't

885
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: know what we're doing. But bogg sends a WhatsApp message

886
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 1: to his colleagues gloating they're seeing ghosts now. Lol, We've

887
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 1: trapped them into having the police out in front of

888
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 1: their house. They're so scared at all we did was

889
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: threatened to murder them. We've got them jumping in shadows.

890
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: Now are not seeing ghosts, they are seeing obvious criminal activity.

891
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:05,839
Speaker 1: And the police have seen that activity now too, and

892
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 1: filmed it several times. A Natick. Detective who's trying to

893
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: Natick is like the suburb or whatever of Boston where

894
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: this is all happening, figures out what's going on, and

895
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,839
Speaker 1: he tracks the payment for the pizzas that had been

896
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 1: sent to the Steiner's house because they had to pay

897
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 1: for some of them, and they found out that the

898
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: pizzas had been paid for with a debit gift debit

899
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 1: card purchased in Silicon Valley, within a couple miles of

900
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 1: eBay corporate headquarters. The rental cars were also traced directly

901
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:39,360
Speaker 1: back to Bog's team, who were all eBay employees. Bog

902
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: the CIA man had taken virtually no precautions to protect

903
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 1: their identity from the New York Times quote. On August

904
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 1: twenty first, the detective showed up at the Ritz Carlton

905
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: to see miss After miss Z dodged him, the detective

906
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 1: called her phone as mister Bog was hustling her to

907
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: the airport. Mister Bog answered, pretended he was her husband,

908
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 1: and played dumb. Miss Z's flight was not for hours,

909
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 1: so they got a hotel room at the airport to

910
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 1: hide out. Mister Bogg sat on the couch and played

911
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,280
Speaker 1: a clip from the two thousand and three comedy Old School,

912
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: in which a husband answers the door to a fellow

913
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,439
Speaker 1: who says, I'm here for the gang Bang. He kept

914
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: watching it over and over and laughing, telling miss Z

915
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 1: to lighten up.

916
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 2: I feel like some listeners, because the nature of this show,

917
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 2: are waiting for us to get to the point where

918
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 2: the eBay execu you know, like have this couple killed.

919
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 2: We never get there. If the story had just been

920
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 2: this person wrote a bunch of stuff that eBay thought

921
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 2: was financially damaging, and they had hired a hitman to

922
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 2: have them murdered, I wouldn't have brought the story to

923
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 2: you because that's the kind of thing you think goes on.

924
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 2: This is so stupid and juvenile and weird. That's what

925
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 2: draw me to the story, because it's not just what

926
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 2: they did. Is this is not the most evil thing.

927
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 1: We've heard about inside on this show, but it is.

928
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

929
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 1: I think it is illustrative of a thought process that

930
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 1: in other organizations does lead to worse things. Right like this,

931
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 1: this kind of escalation of derangement and escalation of force

932
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: is not irrelevant if you're kind of concerned about how

933
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: people with power use it to hurt other people. Right,

934
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: This is just a particularly absurd example of that. I

935
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 1: think is a good way to look at it.

936
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 2: There's so many things at play here, because there's just

937
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 2: the corporate culture, and there's this weird group think, and

938
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 2: there's this way these guys are all egging each other on,

939
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 2: and the way the paranoia, the type of corporate paranoia

940
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 2: that you see with Elon Musk, Right, he seems convinced

941
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,879
Speaker 2: that every rando on Twitter is capable of taking him down.

942
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 2: That guy who's like, you know what's posting the location

943
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 2: of his private plane, He's like, well, they're trying to

944
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:55,239
Speaker 2: get me killed. They're trying to assassinate me. And it's

945
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 2: this weird type of madness that people who are not

946
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 2: acclimated to Twitter, I guess, or to the Internet somehow.

947
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 2: It's a type of madness. And I'm fascinated by this

948
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 2: because the outcome is exactly plays exactly the way if

949
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,359
Speaker 2: there's like a Danny McBride movie about, yes, this type

950
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 2: of he.

951
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 1: Would be the perfect guy to cast as Jim in this.

952
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 2: Where the guys like evil but also dumb, and he's

953
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 2: not harmless, but like if they had broken into that garage,

954
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 2: and if she had caught them in the garage, I

955
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 2: don't know what would have happened. The guy was going

956
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 2: to go in with a crowbar.

957
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,319
Speaker 1: He probably had a gun. We have to assume this

958
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: guy probably carries a gun with them.

959
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 2: All.

960
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 1: He's got a police captain with him too, so that

961
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 1: guy could have had a piece, you know.

962
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 2: And he's you know, and he thinks he's been given

963
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 2: blank check to burn this person down. Like anything, anything

964
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 2: in all caps beats it over and over again, you'd

965
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:51,720
Speaker 2: do anything that's so weird. It's so weird.

966
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:54,839
Speaker 1: I do think you actually nailed the casting though. Danny

967
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 1: McBride is exactly who you'd want for this.

968
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 2: Oh, I've been picturing him all along.

969
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, everything, everything.

970
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 2: He says, like the way he's so over the top

971
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 2: dramatic and takes himself so seriously there, but there's such

972
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 2: like every idea he has is like some people described

973
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 2: Andy McBride's acting as like a child suddenly in an

974
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 2: adult's body.

975
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is like that, right where like that

976
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 1: you have been caught by the cops. You are now

977
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 1: subject to a serious criminal investigation, and you are just

978
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 1: playing the same clip from old school over and over

979
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 1: again as you hide.

980
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 2: In a hotel like and laughing and laughing you.

981
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 1: Worked for the CIA anyway, Once it became clear that

982
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 1: they were now the ones being watched, Bog had his

983
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 1: people embark on a half assed cover up. He gave

984
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 1: orders for his team to try again. The way places

985
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 1: his brain goes are marvelous, so he knows they've been

986
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 1: blown up. He knows that the cops are looking at

987
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 1: who was ordering these pizzas and who is operating this

988
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 1: burner account that's actually making the threats, because clearly that

989
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: person is involved the deliveries, because the threats are time

990
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 1: with the deliveries now because the fake name mis Pop

991
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: had used for that burner account was a Samoan name,

992
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 1: Jim Bogg says, you need to go find a Samoan

993
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 1: that we can blame for all this. That'll that'll throw

994
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 1: them off the case. Now. My favorite of Bog's CIA

995
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,439
Speaker 1: specials was his attempt to have his team make fake

996
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 1: dossier's slandering the Steiners and hand those over to the police.

997
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: From the US Attorney's charging document Honor about August fifteenth,

998
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, Bog directed Stockwell by a WhatsApp message to

999
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 1: prepare an eBay person of interest report that listed the

1000
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: Steiners as EBA's top persons of interest. Bog wrote in

1001
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 1: the narrative, I need you to write that they have

1002
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: made direct threats to eBay, eBay CEO and our employees

1003
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 1: in parentheses, make it up, trying to say just lie

1004
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 1: about them, Just lie about them, pretend there are top threats.

1005
00:53:57,680 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 2: Puts that in writing.

1006
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, brilliant. Now while they're trying to cover up an

1007
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:07,760
Speaker 1: ongoing criminal investigation. Stephanie Pop continued harassing the Steiners on Twitter.

1008
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 1: On the night of August twenty first, she used three

1009
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 1: separate Twitter accounts she had created the night before to

1010
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 1: fake a public conversation about the steiners many crimes. One

1011
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: account asked another for Ena Steiner's home address, the other

1012
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:25,399
Speaker 1: account posted it, while the other replied, guess I have

1013
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 1: to pay Ena a visit. Pop forwarded the tweets that

1014
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: she had just written to Bog, her boss, and Gilbert,

1015
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 1: the retired police captain, and wrote, ENA's really bringing out

1016
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 1: some angry Twitter users. One of the mysteries here is

1017
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: like what's going on with you, Stephanie? Like are you

1018
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 1: really angling for a promotion? Because you are you are

1019
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:47,760
Speaker 1: putting way too much effort into this job.

1020
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 2: And again, where's the same where's the voice of reason

1021
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 2: anywhere in the vicinity.

1022
00:54:55,719 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 1: Of this That voice bounced a while back, not.

1023
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 2: To say, hey, what we're doing is wrong, but to say, hey,

1024
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 2: what we're doing is only this only ends one way,

1025
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 2: with multiple ones of us going to jail. Like you understand,

1026
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 2: I don't care how mad you are at this, lady, Like,

1027
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 2: what we're doing is not going to be effected. It's

1028
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,280
Speaker 2: not going to accomplish our goals as a corporation.

1029
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:22,759
Speaker 1: That's the thing. Not even like what we're doing is wrong,

1030
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: but just like this is clearly not worked. We have

1031
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: gone as far as we can go without committing violence,

1032
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,759
Speaker 1: and it has not dissuaded them. And also now the

1033
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 1: cops are investigating. Stop tweeting about them, stop tweeting threats

1034
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 1: to them. But the same day that Pop fakes that

1035
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:45,359
Speaker 1: Twitter conversation, Bog has Gilbert execute what he called their

1036
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 1: White Night strategy, which is their last ditch attempt to

1037
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:52,800
Speaker 1: deflect blame for what they'd done. In this they have eBay,

1038
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 1: another chunk of the company, contact the Steiners to offer

1039
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: help about their ongoing harassment problems and also reach out

1040
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 1: as EBA to the cops and say, hey, we can

1041
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 1: help you with this investigation if you want. Genius. So

1042
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 1: Gilbert is the guy who sits down with the cops

1043
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 1: because he's a former police captain, and he claims falsely

1044
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: not to know any members of the eBay security team

1045
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 1: that the cops know by name and know by name

1046
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 1: we're stalking the Steiners. When Gilbert learns that Natick police

1047
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 1: are investigating that prepaid debit card, he tells Bog, and

1048
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:31,400
Speaker 1: Bog orders the team to cook up a list of

1049
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: eBay persons of interest in the Bay that they could

1050
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 1: pin the crime on. Basically, anyone in Silicon Valley who's

1051
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 1: been mean at us on the internet. We can try

1052
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 1: and make it look like they sent the pizzas to

1053
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 1: these this random couple in Boston. Very believable. Gilbert dutifully

1054
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 1: handed over this list of persons of interest to the

1055
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 1: Natick police, who then interrogated him and another eBay employee

1056
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 1: about Stephanie Pop and Veronica Z. Gilbert claimed that Pop

1057
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: had ordered Z to investigate the Steiners on her own,

1058
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:04,359
Speaker 1: So at this point he's trying to throw them under

1059
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 1: the bus and make it look like it's just these

1060
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 1: two crazy gals, right, Pop, But this is.

1061
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:13,240
Speaker 2: Where you should be at this point, right where everyone

1062
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 2: in eBay should be is like, Okay, how do I

1063
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 2: make it look like I had nothing to do with this?

1064
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 2: In the lone ear goes down for.

1065
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 1: This right right. And obviously Pop especially is out of

1066
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: pocket on this, but they didn't start this. Right now,

1067
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: Pop does not help her case though, by continuing to

1068
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 1: harass the Steiners through Twitter, posting this On August twenty second,

1069
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 1: the Gay Day, Gilbert met with the Natick police and

1070
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 1: she like cites their newsletters Twitter account twenty years of

1071
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 1: lies and destroying families. Don't be proud of that, you

1072
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: worthless bitch. I will destroy your family and business too,

1073
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 1: see how you like it? And then in another message,

1074
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 1: when are we gonna visit her in Natick? Question mark?

1075
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 1: Question mark? Question mark? And she spells all of this

1076
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 1: and just just the a way people don't actually even

1077
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 1: type on the Internet. But I feel like that's that's

1078
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: almost punching down at this point. Now, by this stage

1079
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 1: in the degradation of this whole case, what's happening has

1080
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 1: finally reached eBay's legal team, and these are finally the

1081
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 1: first time anyone at eBay who is an intelligent person

1082
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 1: finds out what Jim and his team have been doing

1083
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 1: at the we'll say suggestion maybe, but not in a

1084
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:32,440
Speaker 1: legally binding way of the CEO and eBay as lawyers go,

1085
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 1: what the fuck you have been doing?

1086
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 3: What?

1087
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 2: How much money would you pay to be able to

1088
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 2: magically transport yourself to the room in the moment they

1089
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 2: found out fully what had been happening.

1090
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 1: Priceless, just beautiful. Yeah, I would look house.

1091
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 2: To be able to go just see them, see this

1092
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 2: room full of lawyers for this whatever twenty billion dollar corporation,

1093
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 2: and have it explained fully what exactly had been done,

1094
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 2: including with emails you sent them spiders, expensed rental cars.

1095
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 1: Flights, Yeah, you had a cop spray paint what on

1096
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: their house? Oh?

1097
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 2: Because you thought what?

1098
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 1: Because?

1099
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 2: Explain to me again why you you thought this was

1100
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 2: Oh Jesus, I can't.

1101
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:32,439
Speaker 1: A legal team starts to ship bricks and they also

1102
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 1: start asking questions of Bog and Bog panics and he

1103
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: calls Wimer, who is the communications like secretary. He's the

1104
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 1: like the one step down from the CEO. Right, he's

1105
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 1: the guy that Winnig is usually complaining to, and he's

1106
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 1: Bog's like person of contact on the c suite. So

1107
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 1: Jim leaves this message on Wimer's cell phone after the

1108
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 1: lawyers reach out to him. Hi, Wimer, this is Jim

1109
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 1: Bog's personal self. My team ran an op on our

1110
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 1: friend in Boston. Nothing illegal occurred, and we were actually

1111
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 1: intending to team up with her and get her on

1112
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: our side in a positive manner. However, small town police

1113
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 1: got a couple rental car plates and tracked it back

1114
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 1: to my people and the hotel we were staying at.

1115
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 1: They sent a note to eBay Investigations, who then passed

1116
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 1: it to legal and they are conducting an internal investigation

1117
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 1: on us. We are cooperating, but I know they realize

1118
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:23,040
Speaker 1: something is off. We will continue to cooperate, but not

1119
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 1: sure how long we can keep this up. If there

1120
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:27,479
Speaker 1: is any way to get some top cover, that would

1121
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 1: be great. If not, I just wanted you to have

1122
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:31,880
Speaker 1: a head up because they are aware that multiple members

1123
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 1: of our team are not a fan of that website,

1124
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 1: to include David and his wife. Again, no crime was

1125
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:40,120
Speaker 1: committed and the local police don't have a case. I

1126
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 1: don't want our legal team to give them one. Let

1127
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 1: me know if you want to discuss this weekend, you

1128
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 1: want to get that message from you here again, can't

1129
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:51,920
Speaker 1: emphasize enough. No crimes were committed. We wanted to get

1130
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 1: them on our side with the spiders that we sent them.

1131
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 2: The level of sophistication. Ry thinks. I know what's going

1132
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 2: to throw the cops off. I'm gonna send a message

1133
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 2: stating that we didn't do a crime.

1134
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 1: No crimes were committed. Yeah, amazing.

1135
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 2: They will cancel the investigation when they hear that. Yeah.

1136
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 2: Oh no, guys, No, no, he said they didn't do

1137
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 2: any crimes. Yeah, we owe him an apology. I just

1138
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 2: heard the message. No he said they didn't.

1139
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, we repeatedly said no crimes were committed. Could not

1140
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 1: have been clear about that.

1141
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:25,440
Speaker 3: Now.

1142
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 1: From this point on, the game was up. A flurry

1143
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 1: of deletions of text messages followed, right alongside messages from

1144
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:33,800
Speaker 1: the company legal counsel not to do that. Please, for

1145
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 1: the love of God, don't delete your messages. That will

1146
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 1: just make all this worse. Please stop committing crimes now.

1147
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:46,040
Speaker 1: Mister Winnig, the CEO, had been smart enough to avoid

1148
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 1: giving any direct orders to carry out illegal acts in

1149
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 1: a way that we can prove, or at least he

1150
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 1: had been vague enough to give his extremely expensive lawyers

1151
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 1: the wiggle room they needed. I can't. I have no

1152
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:58,560
Speaker 1: evidence that he committed any kind of crime. He has

1153
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 1: not been convicted of a crime, no evidence that he

1154
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 1: personally had anything deleted. He was, however, implicated in aspects

1155
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 1: of the breaking scandal in a way that I think

1156
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:11,800
Speaker 1: we have adequately laid out here, right. And so when

1157
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 1: all of this comes out, and this starts becoming the

1158
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 1: news articles that you read and then sent me a

1159
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 1: message saying you should do this as an episode, it

1160
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 1: has become clear to everybody Devin Winning can't stay CEO

1161
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 1: of eBay. He resigns later that same month with an

1162
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 1: exit pay package of fifty seven million dollars fair salary

1163
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 1: for good word less. You know learned you wasted a

1164
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:40,640
Speaker 1: shitload of the company money on a bar, You lost

1165
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:44,840
Speaker 1: a bunch of market share to Amazon, You presided over

1166
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:48,600
Speaker 1: a company where the security guy carried out a spider crime,

1167
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 1: and then you get fifty seven million to leave. Nice

1168
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: work if you can get it.

1169
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:57,560
Speaker 2: To be clear, even if his role in all of

1170
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 2: this had been to not even about the blog lady,

1171
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:06,600
Speaker 2: and to simply be oblivious to what his security team

1172
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 2: was doing in his name, that would be enough to

1173
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 2: get him fired, right, Yes, you would think so without

1174
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:16,720
Speaker 2: clear fifty seven million dollars in my opinion, So.

1175
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 1: We don't get sued. He doesn't get fired. He resigns,

1176
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 1: and he says that I'm not on the same page

1177
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 1: as the board. Right, legally, this is not firing. Do

1178
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 1: I think that what happened was the rich guy version

1179
01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 1: of getting fired? Sure, but not in a way that

1180
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 1: he can sue me over saying, because Devin Winnigs seems

1181
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 1: like he might be kind of the guy who does

1182
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 1: some suing. Maybe not. Now, laylow Devon. That's a good

1183
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:48,720
Speaker 1: good advice for all you Devon's out there listening right now.

1184
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:51,680
Speaker 1: By the way, always lay low if you're a Devon. Anyway,

1185
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 1: mister Wimer, who is one step below Winnick, gets caught.

1186
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:58,880
Speaker 1: He stays working for eBay for like another year. But

1187
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:01,520
Speaker 1: he he is the one we know deleted a bunch

1188
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:05,040
Speaker 1: of messages, and specifically he deleted messages between himself and

1189
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 1: bog And who knows what those message may or may

1190
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:12,640
Speaker 1: not have implicated him or winning in, but Weimer is

1191
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:18,360
Speaker 1: fired after this becomes clear, and obviously massively disgraced. He

1192
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:20,440
Speaker 1: never has another Oh no, sorry. He went on to

1193
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:23,680
Speaker 1: run the Boys and Girls Club of Silicon Valley. My bad,

1194
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:27,200
Speaker 1: that's fine, That's probably the guy you want molding young minds,

1195
01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:30,840
Speaker 1: though right seems like he'd be good at that. He

1196
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:33,400
Speaker 1: claims that he had no point, no idea what Bog

1197
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:36,959
Speaker 1: was really doing until the story broke, which I don't

1198
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:40,800
Speaker 1: consider very credible, but again, he is not criminally convicted

1199
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:45,200
Speaker 1: of anything. Bog and five other employees are initially charged

1200
01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 1: with cyber stocking and a couple of other different crimes

1201
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 1: like interfering with an investigation. Some of the people charged,

1202
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:55,479
Speaker 1: like miss Z, are temporary employees who also immediately lose

1203
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:58,440
Speaker 1: their job with no severance, in addition to becoming functionally

1204
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:01,920
Speaker 1: unemployable as their careers are getting started. And these young

1205
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 1: women that I actually do feel bad for, they did

1206
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:06,640
Speaker 1: get caught up to a degree where like you should

1207
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 1: have known better, But they were very young, much younger

1208
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 1: than Bog. You know, then certainly the C suites at

1209
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 1: this company, and it sucks that they're the ones who

1210
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 1: suffer the most from this, Right, because they are. They

1211
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:23,320
Speaker 1: are seriously fucked as a result of all this, and

1212
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 1: they're not the ones that I think most of the

1213
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 1: blame should actually land on, But that is where most

1214
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 1: of the blame lands now. The attention drawn to the

1215
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:35,920
Speaker 1: case ensures that there are further charges. In July of

1216
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:38,920
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, almost a year after the story broke, another

1217
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:43,800
Speaker 1: eBay employee, Philip Cook, is also charged with cyberstalking. Cook

1218
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 1: is a retired decorated police captain, the second police former

1219
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 1: police officer involved in this series of crimes. In addition

1220
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:53,960
Speaker 1: to the CIA man, Cook.

1221
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 4: Had gotten yeah no comment, Yeah yeah, And he had

1222
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 4: been one of these guys who got bored in retirement

1223
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 4: decided to take private security jobs in the tech industry.

1224
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:08,240
Speaker 1: He was brought on as senior manager of Security Operations

1225
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 1: for eBay's Global security team, working directly under Jim Bogg.

1226
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 1: His salary was one hundred and eighty five thousand dollars

1227
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:16,120
Speaker 1: a year. If you are wondering, one one hundred and

1228
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:19,760
Speaker 1: eighty five thousand dollars buys you in terms of actual work.

1229
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 1: Here's a summary of his activities during the height of

1230
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 1: Bog's criminality, written by Ours Technica Cook left for a

1231
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:28,600
Speaker 1: trip to Asia, Europe in the Middle East on August eighth,

1232
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. While overseas, where he was traveling alone, mister

1233
01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:35,560
Speaker 1: Cook drank heavily, the sentencing memorandum said. On August twentieth,

1234
01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, while in India, mister Cook saw and responded

1235
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:41,040
Speaker 1: to a draft Twitter message from Gilbert That's the other

1236
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 1: former police guy, to which he acquiesced with a thumbs

1237
01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:46,520
Speaker 1: up emoji, and later assented to a plan to use

1238
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 1: multiple accounts to send the message string with a copy

1239
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 1: all At this time, Cook was unaware that his co

1240
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 1: conspirators had attempted surveillance in Massachusetts, and he was not

1241
01:06:55,720 --> 01:06:58,320
Speaker 1: aware that colleagues might have engaged in role play at

1242
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:01,480
Speaker 1: the victim's house or directed creation a fake person of

1243
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:06,120
Speaker 1: interest reports to conceal their activities. The memorandums said. So

1244
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:10,600
Speaker 1: Cook's defense, you know, as being clearly implicated in all

1245
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:13,320
Speaker 1: of this illegality and in the planning stages of it,

1246
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:15,320
Speaker 1: is I was drunk, and I didn't know that they

1247
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 1: were doing anything right, solid.

1248
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:20,920
Speaker 2: Plant drunk on the other side of the planet.

1249
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:23,600
Speaker 1: Right right now. He would also claim it sentencing that

1250
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:26,800
Speaker 1: the drinking company culture at eBay had led him to

1251
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:30,080
Speaker 1: develop a problem and that the poor judgment that resulted

1252
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 1: from this was part of what had happened. And I

1253
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:35,080
Speaker 1: don't think that's entirely unfair, because Cook claimed that drinking

1254
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:37,520
Speaker 1: on the job at eBay was common and a lot

1255
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:41,800
Speaker 1: of the decisions here do make sense if you add alcohol, right.

1256
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:43,720
Speaker 2: There's a lot of drunk energy too. Yah.

1257
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:48,960
Speaker 1: Yes, I don't think he's entirely lying here. Cook, though,

1258
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 1: does make claims that I think were entirely attempts to

1259
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 1: protect himself. For example, he was found to have deleted

1260
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:57,720
Speaker 1: numerous messages with his boss related to the criminal schemes

1261
01:07:57,760 --> 01:08:00,640
Speaker 1: that Bog had cooked up. In court, Cook claimed he

1262
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:03,880
Speaker 1: deleted those emails because Bog just sent him so much

1263
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:07,800
Speaker 1: crazy shit he assumed it was all jokes. This does

1264
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 1: not hold up in court. Ultimately, Cook and six other

1265
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:14,480
Speaker 1: eBay employees, including Bog, pled guilty to a variety of charges.

1266
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:17,519
Speaker 1: This included the two members of the senior team the

1267
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:20,280
Speaker 1: senior security team who get convicted are Bog and Cook.

1268
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 1: There are two members of the executive leadership team, Weimer

1269
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 1: and Winnig, who are implicated but not charged. Of the

1270
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:31,280
Speaker 1: people who are convicted. Bog receives the toughest sentence, fifty

1271
01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:36,559
Speaker 1: seven months in prison. David Harville, eBay's former global resiliency director,

1272
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:39,719
Speaker 1: gets twenty four months. Stephanie Popp is handed a little

1273
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:42,840
Speaker 1: over a year. Former police Captain Brian Gilbert has pled

1274
01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:45,800
Speaker 1: guilty and not yet been sentenced, while Philip Cook got

1275
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:49,120
Speaker 1: eighteen months in federal prison and three years of house arrest.

1276
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 1: eBay agreed to pay three million dollars in order to

1277
01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:56,240
Speaker 1: defer prosecution. Now, I will say that seems like a

1278
01:08:56,240 --> 01:08:59,400
Speaker 1: slap on the risk from eBay, who I think is

1279
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 1: more responsible than three million dollars of this.

1280
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:05,160
Speaker 2: They pay the three million to this to the couple.

1281
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:08,519
Speaker 1: I think it's a mix of that and like you know, honestly, Jess,

1282
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:10,479
Speaker 1: I will cut in here when I find that out.

1283
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:12,880
Speaker 1: I should have checked on that. I think it's some

1284
01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:15,960
Speaker 1: of its damages and some of it's like fines. But

1285
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:19,400
Speaker 1: it is worth noting that litigation is ongoing. They will

1286
01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:22,280
Speaker 1: probably wind up paid. They will certainly settle for more.

1287
01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:25,840
Speaker 1: This is the result of the criminal investigation. Ina and

1288
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:29,240
Speaker 1: David Steiner are suing eBay, as well as Devin Winnig

1289
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 1: and Steve Weimer, and that's they're suing the other people

1290
01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:34,600
Speaker 1: who are all convicted too. And I think there's a

1291
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:38,519
Speaker 1: good chance they are certainly going to settle for something there, right,

1292
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:41,080
Speaker 1: like the Steiner making addiction out of this.

1293
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:43,840
Speaker 2: That the amount that they settle for will be much

1294
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:46,559
Speaker 2: less than the fifty seven million dollars that, yes, that

1295
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:48,639
Speaker 2: guy got. That was the number, wasn't it.

1296
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 1: Yes, fifty seven million was Winnigs exit package. And Winnig.

1297
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 1: In case you're worried about our buddy, Devin is just fine.

1298
01:09:55,479 --> 01:09:57,680
Speaker 1: He is on the board of General Motors to this

1299
01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 1: day and as a director at Cruz Audit, the autonomous

1300
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:04,160
Speaker 1: vehicle company. In June of twenty twenty one, he was

1301
01:10:04,240 --> 01:10:07,559
Speaker 1: named to the Salesforce Global Advisory Board. So it's good

1302
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:11,200
Speaker 1: to know Devin's still doing great. I'm sure he is

1303
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:15,679
Speaker 1: utilizing their security resources in a responsible and legally ethical manner.

1304
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:20,960
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, somewhere, I'm just imagining some eBay employee is right

1305
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:23,800
Speaker 2: now getting fired because they were caught working remote and

1306
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:26,720
Speaker 2: using like a mouse jiggler to appear to be online,

1307
01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:30,200
Speaker 2: and they're accused of stealing one hundred and forty dollars

1308
01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 2: worth of the company's time. Yeah, and will be fired

1309
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:36,400
Speaker 2: with cause and we'll have difficulty finding another job for

1310
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:40,880
Speaker 2: months or years. And anyway, I.

1311
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:44,360
Speaker 1: Love the justice system and I have no issues with

1312
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:47,320
Speaker 1: any of this. This is all. This is all capitalism

1313
01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:49,759
Speaker 1: working the best way it can possibly work.

1314
01:10:50,040 --> 01:10:53,400
Speaker 2: No notes, Well, here's the thing. I know that there

1315
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:57,599
Speaker 2: are people like really want to abolish the prison system,

1316
01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:00,160
Speaker 2: and I get it. It's not good at reforming people. Well,

1317
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:02,360
Speaker 2: it doesn't do what it's supposed to do other than

1318
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:05,200
Speaker 2: warehouse people for a while. Like in theory, you cannot

1319
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:07,639
Speaker 2: commit another crime while you're locked up in there, unless

1320
01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:10,879
Speaker 2: you're committing against your other inmates, which is exactly what happens.

1321
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 2: But I will say that in my perfect utopian society,

1322
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:16,960
Speaker 2: I do not know what I would do with this

1323
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:21,880
Speaker 2: Danny McBride ass freek who drove this whole thing. If

1324
01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:24,559
Speaker 2: not prison, I don't know what you'd do with that guy.

1325
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:30,639
Speaker 1: I you know, this is all fantasy stuff, but if

1326
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:34,080
Speaker 1: I were responsible for punishments, not just for Jim but

1327
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:38,760
Speaker 1: for guys like Defan winning, it would be like you

1328
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:42,240
Speaker 1: are going to have a comfortable one bedroom apartment and

1329
01:11:42,280 --> 01:11:44,360
Speaker 1: you are going to work forty hours a week at

1330
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:48,200
Speaker 1: a job with you know where you're like doing some

1331
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:52,479
Speaker 1: sort of like direct facing like customer service role. Right,

1332
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:54,720
Speaker 1: Like you're going to be working as a barista, you're

1333
01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:57,160
Speaker 1: going to be waiting tables, you're going to be working

1334
01:11:57,200 --> 01:11:59,760
Speaker 1: at a call center, some sort of like actual job

1335
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:02,479
Speaker 1: where you do something and you just have to do

1336
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:04,479
Speaker 1: that for a period of years. Because to a guy

1337
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:07,680
Speaker 1: who gets a fifty seven million dollar pay package, I

1338
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:10,080
Speaker 1: can't think of a worse punishment than having to live

1339
01:12:10,240 --> 01:12:13,960
Speaker 1: a normal working class life for like five years. You

1340
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:15,880
Speaker 1: have no access to your money, you have no access

1341
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:18,400
Speaker 1: to your vacation homes. You just have to work a

1342
01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:21,719
Speaker 1: job every day like a regular person and have no power.

1343
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:24,120
Speaker 1: I think that would be worse than them than going

1344
01:12:24,120 --> 01:12:25,719
Speaker 1: to club fed for a couple of years.

1345
01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:29,439
Speaker 2: I really do, not even as a punishment, but just

1346
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:32,880
Speaker 2: to acclimate to the world you're living in I think

1347
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:34,360
Speaker 2: the rest of us live in, right.

1348
01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:37,760
Speaker 1: I think there's an actual rehabilitative aspect to that. Like

1349
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:41,040
Speaker 1: some number of these people would just stay shitty, but

1350
01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:44,240
Speaker 1: a couple of them, you assume, would actually realize, like, oh,

1351
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:47,240
Speaker 1: these are the regular people. My entire life has been

1352
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:49,960
Speaker 1: built on fucking over Like it might actually help. I

1353
01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:52,639
Speaker 1: don't know not. My primary person for wanting.

1354
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:54,599
Speaker 2: To do the flaw on our plan is that you

1355
01:12:54,640 --> 01:12:58,200
Speaker 2: can't do that to their co workers at the Starbucks.

1356
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:01,320
Speaker 2: They're working that because you're in them on those people

1357
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:02,519
Speaker 2: and they do not deserve that.

1358
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:05,800
Speaker 1: We would need a special government run coffee house where

1359
01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:08,639
Speaker 1: you know everyone working there is a white collar crime. Hey,

1360
01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:10,360
Speaker 1: you want to go to that coffee house and like

1361
01:13:10,439 --> 01:13:13,080
Speaker 1: spit on the former CEO of JP Morgan.

1362
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:16,280
Speaker 2: Be the worst place to get coffee?

1363
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:24,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it would be dog shit americanas anyway, Jason, you

1364
01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:26,720
Speaker 3: have some books, plug them?

1365
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:30,559
Speaker 2: Yes, the book that is out just if you're hearing

1366
01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:32,240
Speaker 2: this hot off the presses in the books just a

1367
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:35,040
Speaker 2: couple of weeks away. It is on September twenty fourth.

1368
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:38,519
Speaker 2: It is called I'm starting to worry about this Black

1369
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:41,719
Speaker 2: Box of Doom. It is not a part of any

1370
01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:44,000
Speaker 2: series I've ever read before. If you've never read any

1371
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:46,280
Speaker 2: of my books, this is as good a place as

1372
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:48,080
Speaker 2: any to start, even though it is by far the

1373
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:51,240
Speaker 2: most expensive of the books, because it is new that

1374
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:56,720
Speaker 2: it is up for pre order now in every format ebook, audio, hardcover.

1375
01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:01,599
Speaker 2: If you're if you are in this after September twenty fourth.

1376
01:14:01,640 --> 01:14:04,200
Speaker 2: It's on a shelf at a cool indie bookstore somewhere.

1377
01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:06,599
Speaker 2: Go buy it that way instead of getting from Amazon.

1378
01:14:07,320 --> 01:14:10,400
Speaker 1: By Jason's books, I always do, and Jase, before we

1379
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:11,640
Speaker 1: were all that, actually I should have asked you this

1380
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:14,760
Speaker 1: right after we finished. Does any of this make more

1381
01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:17,080
Speaker 1: sense to you? You had asked me to do this

1382
01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:20,360
Speaker 1: Now that we've gone over, I think everything available on

1383
01:14:20,439 --> 01:14:23,880
Speaker 1: this case. Does any of this make any more sense?

1384
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:26,519
Speaker 1: Or is it still just as much of like a mystery?

1385
01:14:28,720 --> 01:14:32,160
Speaker 2: No? But I have been in times in my life

1386
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:35,760
Speaker 2: I've been in a circle of other weirdos and we've

1387
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:40,760
Speaker 2: gotten worked up about something that in retrospect, looking back,

1388
01:14:40,920 --> 01:14:43,439
Speaker 2: especially in my early twenties, looking bank, it's like it

1389
01:14:43,479 --> 01:14:46,800
Speaker 2: was somebody else, you know, we got really mad about

1390
01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:50,320
Speaker 2: somebody online or something. In looking back, it's like, man,

1391
01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:52,439
Speaker 2: we were just we had nothing else going on in

1392
01:14:52,479 --> 01:14:55,360
Speaker 2: our lives, and we got two worked up. I get

1393
01:14:55,400 --> 01:14:59,280
Speaker 2: that dynamic, especially among a bunch of dudes, or a

1394
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:01,200
Speaker 2: bunch of dudes in a bunch of young women or

1395
01:15:01,240 --> 01:15:04,519
Speaker 2: whatever the mix of people here was. I cannot make

1396
01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:10,400
Speaker 2: heads or tails of why they chose this particular person,

1397
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 2: this woman this blogger. I can't. I can't get there,

1398
01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:18,800
Speaker 2: because every organization in the world, every company, every every group,

1399
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:22,240
Speaker 2: every club has got somebody out there writing mildly critical

1400
01:15:22,240 --> 01:15:25,000
Speaker 2: stuff about them that doesn't it's not unique. You have

1401
01:15:25,120 --> 01:15:29,679
Speaker 2: it wherever you go. I've had that since the late nineties.

1402
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:33,960
Speaker 2: I've you know, it's not fun to have people criticizing you,

1403
01:15:34,000 --> 01:15:36,960
Speaker 2: but it's just part of being a public figure, even

1404
01:15:37,040 --> 01:15:41,559
Speaker 2: a minor public figure. I can't get I can't. I

1405
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:43,599
Speaker 2: guess I would have to be in the room. I

1406
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 2: can't think of another example where this has played out

1407
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:50,559
Speaker 2: this way. Again, Companies pulled dirty tricks, but it's cases

1408
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:54,400
Speaker 2: where they have, you know, they're overthrowing a government to

1409
01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:58,160
Speaker 2: try to get cheaper labor on the rubber plantation. It's

1410
01:15:58,240 --> 01:16:01,040
Speaker 2: not it's not this whatever this was.

1411
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:03,639
Speaker 1: No, it's so weird to because like I have had

1412
01:16:03,720 --> 01:16:07,040
Speaker 1: death threats, I've had what I thought really unfair criticisms

1413
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:08,880
Speaker 1: of me online. I had a guy because of who

1414
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:11,720
Speaker 1: I was, break my hand at a street fight with

1415
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:14,599
Speaker 1: a baton, and like, after I found out he'd lost

1416
01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:17,479
Speaker 1: his job in his car, I was like, I probably

1417
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:19,600
Speaker 1: don't need to keep going after this guy. Sounds like

1418
01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:22,640
Speaker 1: that's about enough, right, Like I didn't have the and

1419
01:16:23,200 --> 01:16:25,400
Speaker 1: maybe I should have, but like I didn't have the

1420
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:28,439
Speaker 1: energy to get and that guy broke my boat. Like

1421
01:16:29,240 --> 01:16:31,679
Speaker 1: I can't get in the head of this guy going

1422
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:35,240
Speaker 1: after this lady and making very mild criticisms. It's just wild.

1423
01:16:36,200 --> 01:16:39,360
Speaker 2: And I get the issue with the drinking and there

1424
01:16:39,400 --> 01:16:41,760
Speaker 2: being a culture of drinking at a company that that's

1425
01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:44,559
Speaker 2: definitely a thing that occurs. And I can definitely get

1426
01:16:44,840 --> 01:16:47,200
Speaker 2: a bunch of dudes getting drunk and thinking it's very

1427
01:16:47,240 --> 01:16:51,440
Speaker 2: funny to find a website where you can order animal fetuses,

1428
01:16:51,479 --> 01:16:53,200
Speaker 2: and it's like, oh, let's mail her one of these,

1429
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:57,960
Speaker 2: ha ha. It's when you're on the plane flying to

1430
01:16:58,080 --> 01:17:00,240
Speaker 2: her house that I think you have to wake up

1431
01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:03,880
Speaker 2: and think. Me and there's a record of us by

1432
01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:08,960
Speaker 2: these plans must our minds. We're going to trespass on

1433
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:12,919
Speaker 2: her property. We're gonna put a tracker on her car,

1434
01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:16,880
Speaker 2: and we're gonna follow her around, and we're gonna start intivity,

1435
01:17:16,960 --> 01:17:20,280
Speaker 2: like we're gonna let's be clear. Maybe you could argue

1436
01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:23,960
Speaker 2: that the stuff we did mailing her weird stuff is

1437
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:27,360
Speaker 2: a misdemeanor. Maybe you can get off like that's something

1438
01:17:27,640 --> 01:17:29,840
Speaker 2: chart type of charges the company can make go away.

1439
01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:32,880
Speaker 2: Once you show up at somebody's house, and once you've

1440
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:35,120
Speaker 2: bought a crowbar to try to break into their house,

1441
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:38,960
Speaker 2: that's now real crime stuff. And then once the cops

1442
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:42,479
Speaker 2: fight out you're there, maybe on the orders of the

1443
01:17:42,520 --> 01:17:47,479
Speaker 2: freaking CEO of eBay. That's now front page news, that's

1444
01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:49,840
Speaker 2: now an article in the New York Times. That's the

1445
01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:53,920
Speaker 2: kind of thing you can't possibly be unaware of. So

1446
01:17:55,160 --> 01:17:57,240
Speaker 2: I get it. The world is full of weirdos and

1447
01:17:57,280 --> 01:17:59,919
Speaker 2: people I don't understand. But it's one thing to not understand,

1448
01:18:00,120 --> 01:18:04,040
Speaker 2: say Jeffrey Dahmer, who clearly was extremely ill and had

1449
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:08,679
Speaker 2: totally lost touch with reality. And here where you had

1450
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:12,720
Speaker 2: a bunch of people sending messages back and forth, in

1451
01:18:12,880 --> 01:18:15,960
Speaker 2: all of them nodding along with like, yes, crusher, burn

1452
01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:19,320
Speaker 2: her to the ground, leave nothing but ashes behind. I

1453
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:21,640
Speaker 2: don't get it. I'll never get it. I'm glad that

1454
01:18:21,680 --> 01:18:22,360
Speaker 2: I don't get it.

1455
01:18:23,479 --> 01:18:27,799
Speaker 1: Well, that is our final word on the story until

1456
01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:31,960
Speaker 1: next time. If your boss tells you, hey, I need

1457
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:34,360
Speaker 1: you to fly to Boston in order to place a

1458
01:18:34,439 --> 01:18:38,400
Speaker 1: GPS tracker on this blogger's car, don't do that. You

1459
01:18:38,479 --> 01:18:41,000
Speaker 1: might go to prison for a year. Anyway, this has

1460
01:18:41,040 --> 01:18:44,519
Speaker 1: been Life Advice with Robert Evans, a co production of

1461
01:18:44,600 --> 01:18:49,360
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards Jason Thank you for coming on the

1462
01:18:49,439 --> 01:18:57,760
Speaker 1: show by Jason's book Slash Books. We're Done. Behind the

1463
01:18:57,800 --> 01:19:00,760
Speaker 1: Bastards is a production a cool Zone Media. For more

1464
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:04,639
Speaker 1: from Cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia dot com

1465
01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:08,040
Speaker 1: or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1466
01:19:08,120 --> 01:19:09,680
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.