1
00:00:06,180 --> 00:00:08,920
Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

2
00:00:08,980 --> 00:00:11,100
Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. It's Saturday, so we have a vault

3
00:00:11,140 --> 00:00:13,100
Speaker 1: episode for you. This is going to be an episode

4
00:00:13,140 --> 00:00:16,160
Speaker 1: from last year's Star Trek week, as we're about to

5
00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,579
Speaker 1: venture into an all-new Star Trek week. This is our episode,

6
00:00:19,620 --> 00:00:23,880
Speaker 1: The Salt Vampires of Star Trek. This one originally published 9-9-2025,

7
00:00:23,900 --> 00:00:28,360
Speaker 1: and we're going to discuss The Salt Vampires of M-1.

8
00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:33,940
Speaker 1: from Star Trek, the original series. Let's dive right in.

9
00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:47,900
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey,

10
00:00:47,940 --> 00:00:50,260
Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is

11
00:00:50,300 --> 00:00:50,900
Speaker 1: Robert Lamb.

12
00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:52,600
Speaker 2: And my name is Joe McCormick.

13
00:00:53,050 --> 00:00:55,750
Speaker 1: Welcome to Star Trek Week right here on Stuff to

14
00:00:55,790 --> 00:01:00,750
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind. Yesterday was Star Trek Day. So-called because

15
00:01:00,850 --> 00:01:04,280
Speaker 1: Star Trek, the original series, debuted on September 8th, way

16
00:01:04,310 --> 00:01:09,080
Speaker 1: back in 1966. And the episode in question was The

17
00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,819
Speaker 1: Man Trap, which sounds maybe like it's going to be

18
00:01:12,860 --> 00:01:16,760
Speaker 1: some sort of a dating-based episode, but it's not. It

19
00:01:16,860 --> 00:01:21,720
Speaker 1: is really more of a horror-flavored creature feature episode.

20
00:01:22,340 --> 00:01:24,620
Speaker 2: I thought it would be about a trap, like a

21
00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,360
Speaker 2: literal trap. It really doesn't. Is there a trap in it?

22
00:01:27,410 --> 00:01:28,170
Speaker 2: I don't recall one.

23
00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,850
Speaker 1: I think the title goes back to earlier stages of

24
00:01:32,870 --> 00:01:36,250
Speaker 1: the script, I understand, where the basic idea is that

25
00:01:36,270 --> 00:01:38,270
Speaker 1: there would be some sort of an alien creature that

26
00:01:38,310 --> 00:01:43,410
Speaker 1: was using various illusion-based deceptions that were essentially a series

27
00:01:43,450 --> 00:01:43,950
Speaker 1: of traps.

28
00:01:44,410 --> 00:01:46,610
Speaker 2: But this is actually the episode that we're going to

29
00:01:46,650 --> 00:01:49,780
Speaker 2: be talking about on the podcast today. Now, I got

30
00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,900
Speaker 2: to go full disclosure for all of Star Trek Week.

31
00:01:53,490 --> 00:01:56,270
Speaker 2: I think, Rob, you're more of a Trekkie than I am.

32
00:01:56,810 --> 00:01:59,450
Speaker 2: I'm not like anti-Star Trek. I've always liked Star Trek.

33
00:01:59,470 --> 00:02:02,610
Speaker 2: I just, for whatever reason, never got deep into it

34
00:02:02,850 --> 00:02:04,590
Speaker 2: like a lot of people do. I think you have

35
00:02:04,630 --> 00:02:07,010
Speaker 2: maybe watched like a lot of The Next Generation at

36
00:02:07,050 --> 00:02:08,090
Speaker 2: least or something.

37
00:02:08,330 --> 00:02:11,370
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was definitely a Next Generation kid. I would

38
00:02:11,410 --> 00:02:14,290
Speaker 1: watch it every night on cable at like 9 p.m.

39
00:02:14,850 --> 00:02:16,970
Speaker 1: before I went to sleep. So I watched tons of

40
00:02:17,030 --> 00:02:20,680
Speaker 1: Next Generation, quite a lot of Deep Space Nine, and

41
00:02:20,900 --> 00:02:26,179
Speaker 1: then various films. But in terms of watching the original series,

42
00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,200
Speaker 1: it's just really only one or two episodes, three or

43
00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,640
Speaker 1: four episodes tops that I had ever seen that just

44
00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:34,340
Speaker 1: wasn't part of my Star Trek diet.

45
00:02:34,780 --> 00:02:36,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen a lot less than you. I've seen

46
00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,250
Speaker 2: like four or five episodes of the original series. I

47
00:02:40,290 --> 00:02:44,630
Speaker 2: watched all of the first season of The Next Generation,

48
00:02:44,690 --> 00:02:47,210
Speaker 2: which I'm to understand is not necessarily the cream of

49
00:02:47,230 --> 00:02:51,490
Speaker 2: the crop. And then I've seen most of the, at

50
00:02:51,530 --> 00:02:55,150
Speaker 2: least the original series cast movies. So I guess throughout

51
00:02:55,270 --> 00:02:57,510
Speaker 2: this week in our Star Trek episodes, you're going to

52
00:02:57,530 --> 00:02:59,900
Speaker 2: have to fill me in more where my Star Trek

53
00:02:59,940 --> 00:03:03,799
Speaker 2: knowledge has gaps. But anyway, I had the idea to

54
00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,540
Speaker 2: do this episode because I was reading about various Star

55
00:03:06,580 --> 00:03:10,260
Speaker 2: Trek creatures and I came across the idea of a

56
00:03:10,660 --> 00:03:15,940
Speaker 2: salt vampire. the creature that appears in the very first

57
00:03:16,020 --> 00:03:19,030
Speaker 2: episode of the show that ever aired, right? Because this one,

58
00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,970
Speaker 2: the man trap went on air before the pilot, right?

59
00:03:23,470 --> 00:03:26,669
Speaker 1: Right, right. The pilot episode, The Cage, wouldn't air until

60
00:03:26,710 --> 00:03:31,169
Speaker 1: I believe 1988 after receiving a VHS release in 86.

61
00:03:31,169 --> 00:03:34,890
Speaker 1: So this was indeed the public's first taste of Star Trek. Now,

62
00:03:34,950 --> 00:03:38,070
Speaker 1: narratively speaking, there's no particular reason this episode comes first.

63
00:03:38,090 --> 00:03:39,570
Speaker 1: This is not one of those episodes where it's like,

64
00:03:39,930 --> 00:03:43,250
Speaker 1: how did Spock meet Kirk or anything like that? Rather,

65
00:03:43,370 --> 00:03:46,050
Speaker 1: I'm to understand it was largely the network's call. They're like, OK,

66
00:03:46,070 --> 00:03:48,950
Speaker 1: here's one that feels a little scary. It's a little dark.

67
00:03:49,930 --> 00:03:51,190
Speaker 1: This is going to be the one we're going to

68
00:03:51,250 --> 00:03:53,790
Speaker 1: launch with. And it seems like it was the right

69
00:03:54,230 --> 00:03:57,850
Speaker 1: choice because it struck a chord with viewers and also

70
00:03:58,390 --> 00:04:01,110
Speaker 1: the press seemed to like it. So it must have

71
00:04:01,130 --> 00:04:01,810
Speaker 1: been the right choice.

72
00:04:02,270 --> 00:04:05,190
Speaker 2: There are some things about this episode that feel very

73
00:04:05,290 --> 00:04:08,330
Speaker 2: first episode, though. One example, if you know what I'm

74
00:04:08,370 --> 00:04:11,600
Speaker 2: talking about, is that We would later get this dynamic

75
00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:16,320
Speaker 2: throughout the original series where Spock there are constantly references

76
00:04:16,380 --> 00:04:19,900
Speaker 2: to Spock being unemotional. And there are sort of jokes

77
00:04:19,980 --> 00:04:22,640
Speaker 2: about this where, you know, he's kind of puzzled by

78
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:27,330
Speaker 2: other characters having an illogical emotional reaction to something in

79
00:04:27,550 --> 00:04:30,010
Speaker 2: the man trap. It actually goes a bit beyond that.

80
00:04:30,910 --> 00:04:34,150
Speaker 2: And there are moments where he seems confused by what

81
00:04:34,290 --> 00:04:37,730
Speaker 2: emotions are. It's like he's not even sure what you're

82
00:04:37,750 --> 00:04:39,980
Speaker 2: talking about when you explain having an emotion.

83
00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:45,940
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. In a way, compared to other episodes

84
00:04:45,980 --> 00:04:50,440
Speaker 1: or movies that I've seen, it seemed maybe Spock's relationship

85
00:04:50,460 --> 00:04:53,400
Speaker 1: to emotions was less developed at this point. Yeah.

86
00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,750
Speaker 2: That's why it feels distinctly early to me. There are

87
00:04:56,790 --> 00:04:59,590
Speaker 2: some elements that feel like they're still being worked out.

88
00:05:00,140 --> 00:05:03,089
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's also interesting how, at least in my viewing,

89
00:05:03,670 --> 00:05:06,930
Speaker 1: it really didn't feel like Kirk was a centerpiece to

90
00:05:06,950 --> 00:05:09,870
Speaker 1: the episode at all. I mean, insofar as he's the captain,

91
00:05:09,930 --> 00:05:14,230
Speaker 1: he's the centerpiece, but it really wasn't a Kirk-centric episode.

92
00:05:14,630 --> 00:05:17,670
Speaker 2: It's very ensemble, I'd say. You get time with a

93
00:05:17,690 --> 00:05:21,489
Speaker 2: lot of the characters. You get time with Kirk, especially

94
00:05:21,670 --> 00:05:25,390
Speaker 2: McCoy is kind of almost the centerpiece of it. But

95
00:05:25,470 --> 00:05:29,950
Speaker 2: also with Uhura, with Sulu, with Spock, and with some

96
00:05:29,990 --> 00:05:32,290
Speaker 2: other characters we never meet again. Or at least I

97
00:05:32,310 --> 00:05:33,969
Speaker 2: don't remember from other episodes.

98
00:05:34,430 --> 00:05:37,799
Speaker 1: So this episode was directed by Mark Daniels, who directed

99
00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,500
Speaker 1: 15 episodes of the original Star Trek, I believe. And

100
00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,660
Speaker 1: it was written by George Clayton Johnson, who had previously

101
00:05:43,700 --> 00:05:48,020
Speaker 1: penned seven episodes of the original Twilight Zone. And also

102
00:05:48,870 --> 00:05:51,609
Speaker 1: he wrote the story that served as the basis for

103
00:05:51,670 --> 00:05:54,930
Speaker 1: 1960s Ocean's Eleven. And then, of course, various remakes of that.

104
00:05:55,690 --> 00:05:58,110
Speaker 1: And he'd go on to co-author the novel that served

105
00:05:58,170 --> 00:06:02,469
Speaker 1: as the basis for 1976's Logan's Run. So the Twilight

106
00:06:02,490 --> 00:06:05,969
Speaker 1: Zone connection especially is often stressed in discussions of this

107
00:06:06,050 --> 00:06:07,750
Speaker 1: episode's darker take on things.

108
00:06:08,370 --> 00:06:12,360
Speaker 2: I might understand that there are some similarities in the

109
00:06:12,450 --> 00:06:15,280
Speaker 2: story of this episode to a Twilight Zone episode that

110
00:06:15,300 --> 00:06:15,700
Speaker 2: he wrote.

111
00:06:16,380 --> 00:06:19,000
Speaker 1: Yes, I believe you're right. There's an episode that he

112
00:06:19,060 --> 00:06:22,140
Speaker 1: penned for the Twilight Zone, season one, episode 13, the

113
00:06:22,220 --> 00:06:24,700
Speaker 1: four of us are dying. That has to do with,

114
00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,310
Speaker 1: this is one that I may have seen, but I

115
00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,390
Speaker 1: don't remember it really strongly, but it has a con

116
00:06:30,430 --> 00:06:33,570
Speaker 1: man that I believe has a shape-shifting ability. And so

117
00:06:33,589 --> 00:06:36,630
Speaker 1: you can see threads of that in the form this

118
00:06:36,730 --> 00:06:37,810
Speaker 1: episode ends up taking.

119
00:06:38,210 --> 00:06:41,540
Speaker 2: Right. Because that's a major theme. It's like the, Main

120
00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,940
Speaker 2: other thing about the alien in this episode, it is

121
00:06:44,980 --> 00:06:47,640
Speaker 2: a salt vampire, but also it is a shapeshifter.

122
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,420
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, we mentioned that this one has a has

123
00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:52,860
Speaker 1: a darker tone, maybe compared to some of the other

124
00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:57,180
Speaker 1: original series of Star Trek episodes. And it is notable because,

125
00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,370
Speaker 1: I mean, there's plenty of darkness in the Star Trek universe.

126
00:07:00,910 --> 00:07:02,590
Speaker 1: And certainly if you start making a list of things

127
00:07:02,630 --> 00:07:04,630
Speaker 1: that are dark about it, you can make a pretty

128
00:07:04,670 --> 00:07:07,640
Speaker 1: exhaustive list. But as we've come to know it over

129
00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,520
Speaker 1: the decades, it's the franchise's light that often captivates us

130
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,780
Speaker 1: the most, right? It's that sense of optimism, even in

131
00:07:14,820 --> 00:07:19,980
Speaker 1: divided or troubled times, be it 1966 or 2025. Because

132
00:07:20,020 --> 00:07:24,290
Speaker 1: Star Trek depicts a post-scarcity world in which the entire

133
00:07:24,330 --> 00:07:28,130
Speaker 1: planet Earth benefits from a united government and serves as

134
00:07:28,170 --> 00:07:31,610
Speaker 1: a key member of a largely benevolent United Federation of Planets.

135
00:07:32,330 --> 00:07:36,230
Speaker 1: And while we encounter plenty of philosophical conundrums and ethical dilemmas,

136
00:07:36,730 --> 00:07:40,230
Speaker 1: there's always this intense striving to do right by everyone.

137
00:07:40,550 --> 00:07:44,310
Speaker 2: You know, this weekend, I also, in addition to watching

138
00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,140
Speaker 2: this episode for the first time, I also watched the

139
00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:51,460
Speaker 2: first episode with the appearance of Ricardo Montalban as Khan.

140
00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:56,160
Speaker 2: He plays a spoiler alert for this old episode. He

141
00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:02,000
Speaker 2: plays a ruthless dictator reawakened from the 20th century, reawakened

142
00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,340
Speaker 2: far in the future. And he's sort of describing his

143
00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,160
Speaker 2: ideals to the crew of the Enterprise. And one thing

144
00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,200
Speaker 2: they tell him is basically, you're not going to like

145
00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:15,270
Speaker 2: the world you've just been awakened into. And there's a

146
00:08:15,940 --> 00:08:17,580
Speaker 2: nice bit of humor in there. It's kind of like

147
00:08:18,070 --> 00:08:21,930
Speaker 2: we've improved many things that make the world less amenable

148
00:08:22,010 --> 00:08:24,430
Speaker 2: to the ruthless dictators among us. Yeah.

149
00:08:25,890 --> 00:08:28,100
Speaker 1: That's a good point. And we'll come back to that

150
00:08:28,140 --> 00:08:30,360
Speaker 1: episode later on in the week. Now, how much of

151
00:08:30,380 --> 00:08:34,220
Speaker 1: that optimism is present in this episode? I would argue

152
00:08:34,460 --> 00:08:37,359
Speaker 1: quite a bit because on one hand, yes, it's an

153
00:08:37,420 --> 00:08:40,590
Speaker 1: alien threat episode. And the way they ultimately deal with

154
00:08:40,620 --> 00:08:42,870
Speaker 1: that alien threat is going to be on par with

155
00:08:42,890 --> 00:08:46,829
Speaker 1: the way alien threats are treated in most fiction. Despite

156
00:08:46,870 --> 00:08:50,830
Speaker 1: all of that, they apply logic and they apply compassion

157
00:08:51,230 --> 00:08:54,650
Speaker 1: in what I would argue would be the uniquely Star

158
00:08:54,670 --> 00:08:55,110
Speaker 1: Trek way.

159
00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,350
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would agree with that. And especially to zero

160
00:08:58,429 --> 00:09:01,890
Speaker 2: in on what you say about the deployment of logic

161
00:09:02,210 --> 00:09:05,109
Speaker 2: in the execution of the plot. That's a thing I

162
00:09:05,170 --> 00:09:06,849
Speaker 2: like in a lot of the Star Trek that I

163
00:09:06,890 --> 00:09:10,690
Speaker 2: have seen. Not just logic in the sense of being

164
00:09:10,730 --> 00:09:16,860
Speaker 2: the opposite of being the thing that Spock possesses, not

165
00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,360
Speaker 2: thinking emotionally, but also logic as a process, like seeing

166
00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,339
Speaker 2: the characters methodically work through steps in how to solve

167
00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,920
Speaker 2: a problem something that's often not depicted in you know

168
00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,040
Speaker 2: a lot of genre fiction where it's all action a

169
00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,000
Speaker 2: lot of my favorite stuff i've seen in star trek

170
00:09:35,070 --> 00:09:38,630
Speaker 2: art scenes of characters like sitting around a table discussing

171
00:09:38,730 --> 00:09:41,670
Speaker 2: what they're going to do to solve a problem.

172
00:09:41,530 --> 00:09:43,670
Speaker 1: Yeah and then as we see in this episode too

173
00:09:43,690 --> 00:09:48,609
Speaker 1: discussing the ramifications of all that. So, yeah, it's the

174
00:09:48,630 --> 00:09:51,620
Speaker 1: kind of stuff that makes an episode like this more memorable,

175
00:09:51,980 --> 00:09:54,520
Speaker 1: even after the dust is settled from the action itself.

176
00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,710
Speaker 1: All right, well, I'm going to provide a quick summary

177
00:09:58,830 --> 00:10:02,179
Speaker 1: of this episode. So, you know, fair warning, if you

178
00:10:02,220 --> 00:10:03,980
Speaker 1: haven't seen The Man Trap and you would like to

179
00:10:04,020 --> 00:10:06,340
Speaker 1: watch The Man Trap before we proceed with this episode

180
00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,770
Speaker 1: and then get into some of the science, because ultimately

181
00:10:08,809 --> 00:10:10,870
Speaker 1: that's where we're headed with this. We're going to talk

182
00:10:10,910 --> 00:10:15,470
Speaker 1: about how we might interpret some of the plot elements

183
00:10:15,530 --> 00:10:18,510
Speaker 1: and the creature through the lens of natural world science.

184
00:10:19,030 --> 00:10:21,900
Speaker 1: But Spoiler warning, if you want to dip out now,

185
00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,179
Speaker 1: watch the episode and come back, go ahead and do that.

186
00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,020
Speaker 1: All right, so this is not an episode I'd ever

187
00:10:27,070 --> 00:10:30,480
Speaker 1: watched before. And in my opinion, it's a pretty fun one.

188
00:10:31,250 --> 00:10:34,150
Speaker 1: The episode, having been digitally remastered like the rest of

189
00:10:34,190 --> 00:10:36,590
Speaker 1: the original series, I believe, looks great. And we have

190
00:10:36,630 --> 00:10:41,679
Speaker 1: some very vibrant colors as we orbit the mysterious planet M113,

191
00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,720
Speaker 1: as we venture into the gel-lit caverns on its surface.

192
00:10:46,450 --> 00:10:48,490
Speaker 1: And even aboard the Enterprise, we get to venture into

193
00:10:48,530 --> 00:10:51,210
Speaker 1: the botany department where we have a bunch of really

194
00:10:51,309 --> 00:10:53,929
Speaker 1: vibrantly colored plants on display.

195
00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,719
Speaker 2: That was one of my favorite moments. Sulu has a

196
00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,520
Speaker 2: screaming pet plant in this episode that's really good. That

197
00:11:01,580 --> 00:11:04,700
Speaker 2: kind of works like the dogs in Terminator. Like the

198
00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,540
Speaker 2: plant begins to scream when something is not right with

199
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:08,600
Speaker 2: one of the people in the room.

200
00:11:09,230 --> 00:11:11,270
Speaker 1: But you're right, we do get some nice George Takei

201
00:11:11,309 --> 00:11:14,290
Speaker 1: scenes here with his Sulu. We also get, as we

202
00:11:14,309 --> 00:11:18,080
Speaker 1: mentioned already, some nice scenes with Nichelle Nichols' Uhura. And

203
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,320
Speaker 1: then some nice Spock scenes with Leonard Nimoy. And then

204
00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:26,080
Speaker 1: DeForest Kelly's Dr. McCoy is arguably the centerpiece of the episode.

205
00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,730
Speaker 1: And as far as Shatner's Captain Kirk is concerned, it's

206
00:11:29,780 --> 00:11:31,809
Speaker 1: easy to look for all the cliches in any given

207
00:11:31,850 --> 00:11:35,850
Speaker 1: Kirk role, any Kirk performance, you know. But I don't know,

208
00:11:35,870 --> 00:11:37,650
Speaker 1: I feel like he was perfectly fine here, if not

209
00:11:37,670 --> 00:11:41,560
Speaker 1: a little bit in the background. Though I did find

210
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,640
Speaker 1: it amusing that the whole episode and therefore all of

211
00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,230
Speaker 1: Star Trek kicks off with him being kind of a

212
00:11:47,290 --> 00:11:50,950
Speaker 1: real jerk to McCoy. They're going on this mission, as

213
00:11:51,210 --> 00:11:53,130
Speaker 1: we're going to discuss. He's essentially going to visit an

214
00:11:53,250 --> 00:11:56,229
Speaker 1: ex and he's a little nervous about it. And so

215
00:11:56,370 --> 00:11:59,150
Speaker 1: he says, shall we pick some flowers, doctor? When a

216
00:11:59,190 --> 00:12:02,120
Speaker 1: man visits an old girlfriend, she usually expects something like that.

217
00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:03,920
Speaker 1: And I don't know, it just felt off like, oh

218
00:12:03,940 --> 00:12:07,320
Speaker 1: my God, that seems like a little cruel, Kirk. By

219
00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:08,760
Speaker 1: the end of the episode, I feel like maybe they've

220
00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,720
Speaker 1: grounded a little more in their rapport. But right off

221
00:12:11,740 --> 00:12:13,860
Speaker 1: the bat here, it felt a little mean.

222
00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,520
Speaker 2: If I have a critique, one thing I'll say about

223
00:12:16,570 --> 00:12:18,630
Speaker 2: the writing in this episode is that I think it's

224
00:12:18,730 --> 00:12:23,630
Speaker 2: pretty good, decent to good when it's on plot. And

225
00:12:23,670 --> 00:12:27,030
Speaker 2: when the characters are just chit-chatting, that's not some of

226
00:12:27,070 --> 00:12:30,770
Speaker 2: the best stuff. Yeah. And this is an example here.

227
00:12:31,260 --> 00:12:34,260
Speaker 2: But yeah, one thing I sometimes notice when I go

228
00:12:34,300 --> 00:12:39,270
Speaker 2: back and watch these original series episodes is that, especially

229
00:12:39,309 --> 00:12:43,010
Speaker 2: because I came to the original series cast backwards. I

230
00:12:43,130 --> 00:12:47,170
Speaker 2: saw the original series cast movies before I really ever

231
00:12:47,210 --> 00:12:48,790
Speaker 2: watched any of the show. And as I said, I

232
00:12:48,809 --> 00:12:51,110
Speaker 2: still haven't seen that much of the show. But I'm

233
00:12:51,190 --> 00:12:57,010
Speaker 2: often struck by how... How much more hot blooded and

234
00:12:57,150 --> 00:13:01,130
Speaker 2: emotional Kirk is in the movies than he is in

235
00:13:01,170 --> 00:13:03,100
Speaker 2: the show? Usually in the show, it seems to me

236
00:13:03,140 --> 00:13:06,140
Speaker 2: like he's closer to the Spock end of the spectrum.

237
00:13:06,179 --> 00:13:11,000
Speaker 2: He's kind of cool and logical and methodical and occasionally

238
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,179
Speaker 2: a bit, you know, acerbic or something. But he's not

239
00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:15,939
Speaker 2: like he is in the movies where he's more like

240
00:13:15,980 --> 00:13:19,420
Speaker 2: a hot blooded, you know, just bursting with feeling.

241
00:13:20,020 --> 00:13:23,059
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he is rather casual in this episode, even

242
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,100
Speaker 1: when things get stressful. You know, he's kind of cool

243
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:39,020
Speaker 1: as a cucumber and by the books. All right, so

244
00:13:39,370 --> 00:13:41,990
Speaker 1: the basic plot summary goes as follows. So the Enterprise

245
00:13:42,050 --> 00:13:46,870
Speaker 1: is conducting a routine medical check-in with Professor Robert Crater,

246
00:13:47,050 --> 00:13:51,580
Speaker 1: played by Alfred Ryder. and his wife, Nancy Crater, played

247
00:13:51,620 --> 00:13:55,660
Speaker 1: by Janine Ball, on the desolate planet of M113. So

248
00:13:55,740 --> 00:13:59,700
Speaker 1: it's a task that's low-stakes socially complicated, again, by the

249
00:13:59,740 --> 00:14:02,400
Speaker 1: fact that Nancy is McCoy's old flame from like a

250
00:14:02,460 --> 00:14:06,800
Speaker 1: decade ago. Our first hint of intrigue is that when

251
00:14:06,900 --> 00:14:11,300
Speaker 1: Nancy's introduced, she looks like a beautiful middle-aged woman to Kirk,

252
00:14:11,450 --> 00:14:14,370
Speaker 1: but to McCoy, she looks at least 10 years younger,

253
00:14:14,830 --> 00:14:18,390
Speaker 1: as young as he remembers her from their past relationships. And,

254
00:14:18,450 --> 00:14:19,970
Speaker 1: you know, that's all well and good, right? I mean,

255
00:14:19,990 --> 00:14:22,430
Speaker 1: the music, there's a little music sting here that makes

256
00:14:22,510 --> 00:14:25,570
Speaker 1: us think something's not right. But still, it's subjective how

257
00:14:25,610 --> 00:14:29,090
Speaker 1: you interpret someone's appearance. But then we have this crewman

258
00:14:29,170 --> 00:14:32,030
Speaker 1: Darnell with them, who is a total red shirt, even

259
00:14:32,050 --> 00:14:35,200
Speaker 1: though he's wearing a blue shirt. And he sees her

260
00:14:35,340 --> 00:14:38,280
Speaker 1: as an entirely different woman, a blonde lady that he

261
00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,980
Speaker 1: met on Wrigley's Pleasure Planet.

262
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, he actually says this out loud and he is

263
00:14:45,540 --> 00:14:48,210
Speaker 2: like scolded by Kirk. He's like, you can't say that.

264
00:14:48,950 --> 00:14:52,270
Speaker 2: He's sent outside to think about his sins.

265
00:14:52,910 --> 00:14:56,229
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we eventually come to learn that this creature

266
00:14:56,330 --> 00:14:59,190
Speaker 1: killed the real Nancy a year prior, but it took

267
00:14:59,230 --> 00:15:02,470
Speaker 1: on her form and continued on with the Professor. And

268
00:15:02,490 --> 00:15:04,170
Speaker 1: I think this is one of the more interesting wrinkles

269
00:15:04,210 --> 00:15:06,570
Speaker 1: in the plot here. So the Professor knows this is

270
00:15:06,630 --> 00:15:10,260
Speaker 1: not the real Nancy. The relationship between the Professor and

271
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,560
Speaker 1: the shape-shifting alien is is one of kind of consensual

272
00:15:13,620 --> 00:15:15,900
Speaker 1: delusion and ultimately real affection.

273
00:15:16,380 --> 00:15:21,210
Speaker 2: Yeah, because the professor is, so the creature begins killing

274
00:15:21,270 --> 00:15:24,810
Speaker 2: people in the Enterprise, of course. And they are, the people,

275
00:15:25,150 --> 00:15:28,070
Speaker 2: the crew members are found with these weird modeled faces.

276
00:15:28,130 --> 00:15:31,450
Speaker 2: They've got these circles on their faces. And there's a

277
00:15:31,510 --> 00:15:34,100
Speaker 2: mystery plot throughout the whole middle of the episode where

278
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,120
Speaker 2: Kirk and Spock and everyone are trying to figure out

279
00:15:36,180 --> 00:15:38,200
Speaker 2: what's going on with these dead people. At first, they

280
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,140
Speaker 2: think that they have eaten a poisonous plant on the

281
00:15:41,180 --> 00:15:44,440
Speaker 2: surface of the planet. And then they rule that out.

282
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,970
Speaker 2: They say that doesn't make sense. And they realize they're

283
00:15:46,990 --> 00:15:49,210
Speaker 2: being attacked by some creature and they think the creature

284
00:15:49,270 --> 00:15:52,510
Speaker 2: is down on the planet, threatening the professor. Uh, but

285
00:15:52,550 --> 00:15:55,850
Speaker 2: then eventually they figure out, oh, it was there with

286
00:15:55,910 --> 00:15:58,390
Speaker 2: him all along. And when he is brought on board

287
00:15:58,410 --> 00:16:01,440
Speaker 2: the enterprise, they're trying to get his help in capturing

288
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,820
Speaker 2: the creature, which is shape-shifting and blending in among the crew,

289
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,100
Speaker 2: you know, trying to prey on members of the crew.

290
00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:10,880
Speaker 2: But the professor doesn't want to help because he loves

291
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,000
Speaker 2: the creature, the creature that killed his real wife. But

292
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,420
Speaker 2: in his lonely years there on the planet, because this

293
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,360
Speaker 2: creature can assume the shape of his wife, it has

294
00:16:20,420 --> 00:16:22,840
Speaker 2: just replaced her. It has just become her.

295
00:16:23,380 --> 00:16:26,330
Speaker 1: Yeah. And and so he's like, yes, I know it's

296
00:16:26,570 --> 00:16:29,010
Speaker 1: just it's an alien shapeshifter, but it's the closest thing

297
00:16:29,070 --> 00:16:31,910
Speaker 1: I have to the person I lost. And there's a sense, too,

298
00:16:31,970 --> 00:16:35,710
Speaker 1: that the alien like loves him as well, like needs

299
00:16:35,730 --> 00:16:40,520
Speaker 1: him as well. So it's again, the various other treatments

300
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,460
Speaker 1: of this basic idea would not have included this much compassion.

301
00:16:44,940 --> 00:16:47,500
Speaker 1: But of course, like you said, there's a lot of

302
00:16:47,580 --> 00:16:51,350
Speaker 1: running about in disguise on the Enterprise itself, chasing salt

303
00:16:51,380 --> 00:16:55,170
Speaker 1: shakers around even because that's what it wants, salt. And

304
00:16:55,210 --> 00:16:57,650
Speaker 1: eventually we're going to get to the point where McCoy

305
00:16:57,710 --> 00:17:00,410
Speaker 1: has to put the alien down with a phaser and

306
00:17:00,430 --> 00:17:02,130
Speaker 1: in doing so reveal its true form.

307
00:17:02,550 --> 00:17:05,190
Speaker 2: That's right. So through most of the episode, the creature

308
00:17:05,390 --> 00:17:07,859
Speaker 2: is a shapeshifter and we are only seeing it in

309
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,620
Speaker 2: the forms it takes. It basically it tries to take

310
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,639
Speaker 2: whatever form it thinks would be most appealing to the

311
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,460
Speaker 2: person it's dealing with. Often someone from the person's past

312
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,660
Speaker 2: or someone who reminds them of someone from their past

313
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,979
Speaker 2: or would seem familiar to them. And then in the end,

314
00:17:25,020 --> 00:17:27,659
Speaker 2: you finally see what it looks like. And it is

315
00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:31,899
Speaker 2: somewhat Morlock-ish, as we mentioned in our episode on the

316
00:17:31,940 --> 00:17:37,550
Speaker 2: time machine from 1960. It kind of has a gray-green skin,

317
00:17:37,570 --> 00:17:40,859
Speaker 2: a kind of puckered mouth with these fangs in it.

318
00:17:41,170 --> 00:17:43,429
Speaker 2: And you would think, oh, the fangs there, that's the

319
00:17:43,470 --> 00:17:46,530
Speaker 2: vampire part, right? That's what it's feeding. But no, remember,

320
00:17:46,570 --> 00:17:49,770
Speaker 2: the crew members who were found dead have these circles

321
00:17:49,869 --> 00:17:53,300
Speaker 2: on their skin, on their faces. What's all that about? Well,

322
00:17:53,340 --> 00:17:56,560
Speaker 2: we discover when we see the creature's final form, that

323
00:17:56,580 --> 00:18:00,240
Speaker 2: the creature is using its fingers for sucking the salt

324
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,679
Speaker 2: out of its victims. It has suction cups like on

325
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,570
Speaker 2: the arms of an octopus. And these are the cause

326
00:18:06,630 --> 00:18:09,270
Speaker 2: of the circles and the modeling on the face. It

327
00:18:09,330 --> 00:18:12,950
Speaker 2: is attaching to the victim's face, sucking all the salt

328
00:18:13,130 --> 00:18:16,530
Speaker 2: out of the victim's body and leaving them dead, which

329
00:18:16,609 --> 00:18:19,320
Speaker 2: by the way, I don't know if salt can be

330
00:18:19,380 --> 00:18:22,919
Speaker 2: extracted by itself in that way, but that would absolutely

331
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:24,400
Speaker 2: kill you. You need salt to live.

332
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:25,060
Speaker 1: Yeah.

333
00:18:25,220 --> 00:18:25,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

334
00:18:25,580 --> 00:18:28,550
Speaker 1: Yeah. I, uh, A lot of questions about the extraction

335
00:18:30,130 --> 00:18:32,810
Speaker 1: mechanism here. But, yeah, the idea that it would be

336
00:18:32,890 --> 00:18:37,040
Speaker 1: fatal absolutely checks out. Yeah, it's a pretty great monster design.

337
00:18:37,300 --> 00:18:42,120
Speaker 1: Clearly steering firmly into the monster category. Sad face, gray

338
00:18:42,140 --> 00:18:46,400
Speaker 1: hair and fur, suckers on those three fingers. One wonders, again,

339
00:18:46,460 --> 00:18:49,700
Speaker 1: what the teeth are for, if it feeds exclusively through

340
00:18:49,740 --> 00:18:53,120
Speaker 1: its fingers. But, I don't know, maybe the teeth stuck

341
00:18:53,140 --> 00:18:54,180
Speaker 1: around for one reason or another.

342
00:18:54,740 --> 00:18:58,359
Speaker 2: Well, as we will discover with, um, some of the

343
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,520
Speaker 2: creatures we'll get to in the scientific portion of this episode,

344
00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:05,060
Speaker 2: it may be that this, this creature actually has two

345
00:19:05,100 --> 00:19:08,139
Speaker 2: different feeding mechanisms. It has one for salt and another

346
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,600
Speaker 2: for the energy containing macronutrients that it consumes to live.

347
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,100
Speaker 2: So maybe it's getting its energy from sugars or proteins

348
00:19:16,140 --> 00:19:18,840
Speaker 2: or whatever, but then it also has salt suckers on

349
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,260
Speaker 2: its fingers for the salt that it needs to survive.

350
00:19:21,850 --> 00:19:25,770
Speaker 1: Yeah. At least on its fingers. Um, I was wondering

351
00:19:25,810 --> 00:19:28,230
Speaker 1: about this. I was thinking, well, I don't think we

352
00:19:28,260 --> 00:19:31,359
Speaker 1: ever see its feet, or certainly the bottoms of its feet.

353
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,760
Speaker 1: Might it have salt-absorbing suckers down there as well? And

354
00:19:35,780 --> 00:19:38,320
Speaker 1: I would argue, I think it would be reasonable to

355
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:42,369
Speaker 1: expect it might, especially if, on some level, salt absorption

356
00:19:42,380 --> 00:19:45,510
Speaker 1: through the hands and or the feet here originally evolved

357
00:19:45,550 --> 00:19:48,669
Speaker 1: as a kind of passive feeding or sensing from at

358
00:19:48,710 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 1: least a partially quadrilateral organism as it traversed its environment

359
00:19:53,540 --> 00:19:56,960
Speaker 1: before it, you know, became steadily became its presumably primary

360
00:19:57,020 --> 00:20:01,540
Speaker 1: mode of ingestion, its primary diet. Because we can look to,

361
00:20:01,540 --> 00:20:04,320
Speaker 1: you know, various natural world organisms that can, you know,

362
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 1: quote unquote, taste with their feet in that includes, as

363
00:20:07,859 --> 00:20:12,480
Speaker 1: we'll be getting into, butterflies, flies, bees, and crayfish. Additionally,

364
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,360
Speaker 1: we have organisms that can absorb water through drinking patches

365
00:20:15,420 --> 00:20:18,959
Speaker 1: on their skin, as we see in amphibians. And we

366
00:20:19,010 --> 00:20:21,330
Speaker 1: also have the thorny devil lizard of Australia that can

367
00:20:21,369 --> 00:20:25,070
Speaker 1: draw water up from its feet via capillary action. So

368
00:20:25,150 --> 00:20:26,969
Speaker 1: all it has to do is touch water with any

369
00:20:27,010 --> 00:20:29,610
Speaker 1: part of its body, and it can channel that water.

370
00:20:29,630 --> 00:20:33,669
Speaker 1: The channels in its skin will move that water up

371
00:20:33,710 --> 00:20:37,270
Speaker 1: to its mouth. So I don't know. I like to

372
00:20:37,290 --> 00:20:39,710
Speaker 1: think that it probably has suckers on the bottoms of

373
00:20:39,750 --> 00:20:40,430
Speaker 1: its feet as well.

374
00:20:41,150 --> 00:20:42,409
Speaker 2: I bet it's got suckers everywhere.

375
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,260
Speaker 1: I mean, why not? I included a few images of

376
00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:49,480
Speaker 1: the monster in our outline here, Joe. The fourth one

377
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,820
Speaker 1: you'll note is apparently, and listeners, you can find this

378
00:20:52,859 --> 00:20:55,350
Speaker 1: as well if you go to Memory Alpha and look

379
00:20:55,390 --> 00:20:58,370
Speaker 1: up the Salt Vampire, but apparently they did a redesign

380
00:20:58,609 --> 00:21:02,250
Speaker 1: of this creature for the 2009 Star Trek film but

381
00:21:02,290 --> 00:21:04,109
Speaker 1: ended up not using it. Hmm.

382
00:21:04,900 --> 00:21:07,100
Speaker 2: Is it going to be major plot element or just

383
00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:08,740
Speaker 2: like a fan service cameo?

384
00:21:08,780 --> 00:21:11,879
Speaker 1: I guess it was more of a cameo, uh, because it, it, it's,

385
00:21:12,060 --> 00:21:14,310
Speaker 1: it seemed to have never made it into even any

386
00:21:14,350 --> 00:21:17,169
Speaker 1: deleted scenes as far as I know. But you can

387
00:21:17,190 --> 00:21:20,129
Speaker 1: see the design here and it, it, it looks obviously

388
00:21:20,190 --> 00:21:23,790
Speaker 1: updated still, I guess, true enough to the original concept. Uh,

389
00:21:23,869 --> 00:21:27,630
Speaker 1: but I don't know, lacking that signature sad face because

390
00:21:27,670 --> 00:21:29,850
Speaker 1: we should get that sense of sadness. It's a survivor

391
00:21:29,869 --> 00:21:32,790
Speaker 1: and the last survivor of a now, uh, you know,

392
00:21:32,890 --> 00:21:33,810
Speaker 1: vanished species.

393
00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and there are many sad things in this episode.

394
00:21:37,619 --> 00:21:41,120
Speaker 2: For example, I think we were talking about this off mic,

395
00:21:41,140 --> 00:21:42,899
Speaker 2: I think. We haven't said this in the episode yet.

396
00:21:42,940 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 2: There is one scene where the leaders of the Enterprise

397
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,420
Speaker 2: are sitting around a table discussing what to do. They're

398
00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:53,310
Speaker 2: aware now that the shape-shifting creature is among them on

399
00:21:53,350 --> 00:21:56,100
Speaker 2: the ship and what they're going to do to stop it.

400
00:21:56,790 --> 00:22:00,629
Speaker 2: And the creature in disguise, I believe as McCoy says,

401
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,420
Speaker 2: suggests why don't we just give this creature the salt

402
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,780
Speaker 2: it needs and let it go away yeah and it's

403
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,100
Speaker 2: already killed many of their friends at this point so

404
00:22:10,510 --> 00:22:14,970
Speaker 2: maybe he's not grasping why exactly that they wouldn't want

405
00:22:14,990 --> 00:22:17,250
Speaker 2: to just let it go but at the same time

406
00:22:17,869 --> 00:22:21,630
Speaker 2: You get a plea for mercy, essentially, from the monster's

407
00:22:21,710 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 2: own lips. It's just like, it just needs the salt

408
00:22:23,780 --> 00:22:25,679
Speaker 2: to survive. Why not just give it the salt and

409
00:22:25,859 --> 00:22:26,420
Speaker 2: let it go?

410
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,400
Speaker 1: Like, it does what it needs to survive. And it's

411
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:34,390
Speaker 1: also brought up, well, look at humans. Humans also historically

412
00:22:34,650 --> 00:22:37,689
Speaker 1: killed to survive and killed to eat and so forth. So, yeah,

413
00:22:37,710 --> 00:22:41,750
Speaker 1: we do get some nice logical consideration here of everything. But, yeah,

414
00:22:41,830 --> 00:22:43,369
Speaker 1: I kept coming back to the idea that it's like,

415
00:22:43,410 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 1: this could have all been avoided if we just had

416
00:22:45,820 --> 00:22:48,729
Speaker 1: been honest about all of this. and the Federation could

417
00:22:48,750 --> 00:22:51,930
Speaker 1: have just supplied this one creature with just unlimited salt.

418
00:22:52,350 --> 00:22:54,510
Speaker 1: How much salt would be required to keep it from

419
00:22:54,550 --> 00:22:57,410
Speaker 1: killing people? Surely that is a price that the Federation

420
00:22:57,450 --> 00:22:58,250
Speaker 1: would be willing to pay.

421
00:22:58,710 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also I would say, general plausibility question, I

422
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,620
Speaker 2: feel like on a barren planet like you see with

423
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 2: M113 here, it would probably be harder to find food

424
00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:11,220
Speaker 2: than it would be to find salt. The food is

425
00:23:11,340 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 2: in energy-containing molecules.

426
00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:17,350
Speaker 1: And it's just also hard to imagine a world where

427
00:23:17,369 --> 00:23:20,430
Speaker 1: the salt has been used up. I was looking into

428
00:23:20,470 --> 00:23:23,850
Speaker 1: this a little bit. Where'd all the salt go? Again,

429
00:23:23,910 --> 00:23:28,970
Speaker 1: salt is cheap and readily available in most places. And

430
00:23:28,990 --> 00:23:32,930
Speaker 1: I was reading about this in an article, or I

431
00:23:32,950 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 1: guess this was a chapter, in Chemistry and Science Fiction

432
00:23:35,619 --> 00:23:40,420
Speaker 1: from 2025 by Karsten Mueller. And the author here points

433
00:23:40,460 --> 00:23:42,859
Speaker 1: out that, yeah, we have to tweak our interpretation of

434
00:23:42,900 --> 00:23:45,980
Speaker 1: this to file it away logically. The author here writes,

435
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,959
Speaker 1: The salt requirement seems to be so high that the

436
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,330
Speaker 1: species eventually became extinct because all the salt on M113

437
00:23:53,369 --> 00:23:55,929
Speaker 1: was used up at some point. It can't really be

438
00:23:56,070 --> 00:23:58,930
Speaker 1: used up. No matter what chemical reaction you do with salt,

439
00:23:58,990 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 1: the sodium and chlorine atoms from which it is built

440
00:24:02,190 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: remain as such, and the total amount on the planet

441
00:24:04,780 --> 00:24:08,300
Speaker 1: does not change. Nevertheless, it is conceivable that at some

442
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 1: point all the table salt is used up in the

443
00:24:11,700 --> 00:24:14,939
Speaker 1: sense that we use up water. Water is not destroyed

444
00:24:14,980 --> 00:24:17,850
Speaker 1: when washing and drinking. It is still water. However, it

445
00:24:17,890 --> 00:24:22,150
Speaker 1: becomes contaminated, meaning it is dirtier after use than before.

446
00:24:22,690 --> 00:24:24,649
Speaker 1: It is used up in the sense that it is

447
00:24:24,690 --> 00:24:27,869
Speaker 1: still there but can no longer be used immediately. Something

448
00:24:27,930 --> 00:24:30,550
Speaker 1: similar could have happened with the salt on M113.

449
00:24:31,950 --> 00:24:36,170
Speaker 2: So some kind of planet-wide contamination process by which all

450
00:24:36,210 --> 00:24:39,820
Speaker 2: of the salt is fouled throughout the whole environment.

451
00:24:40,630 --> 00:24:42,900
Speaker 1: And I also get the sense maybe salt is more

452
00:24:42,940 --> 00:24:45,460
Speaker 1: delicious if you pull it out of a humanoid's face.

453
00:24:45,950 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: Because she only chases salt shakers around so much. And

454
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,580
Speaker 1: I don't remember any comment of anybody saying the storehouses

455
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,860
Speaker 1: of salt on the Enterprise have been completely depleted. The

456
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 1: replicators are all fried because somebody's been replicating nonstop salt. No,

457
00:25:03,660 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: it just goes straight for the face anyway.

458
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 2: Well, in the same way that like a teaspoon of

459
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,580
Speaker 2: salt by itself is disgusting, but a teaspoon of salt

460
00:25:10,660 --> 00:25:13,619
Speaker 2: on food with other natural flavors with some sweetness and

461
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,980
Speaker 2: some acidity balancing it all out is delicious.

462
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: You get some of that face oil in there. It

463
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,379
Speaker 1: really flavors it up nicely.

464
00:25:19,700 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 2: Right.

465
00:25:30,140 --> 00:25:32,070
Speaker 1: All right. Well, let's go ahead and make our transition

466
00:25:32,310 --> 00:25:34,850
Speaker 1: out of the world of science fiction and into the

467
00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:36,290
Speaker 1: natural world of biology.

468
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,750
Speaker 2: Right. So I found the idea of a salt vampire

469
00:25:40,830 --> 00:25:43,290
Speaker 2: so intriguing. I had to wonder, as we often do,

470
00:25:43,869 --> 00:25:46,949
Speaker 2: is there such an organism in the real world on

471
00:25:47,190 --> 00:25:51,110
Speaker 2: our planet? I think there's nothing exactly like the salt

472
00:25:51,150 --> 00:25:54,149
Speaker 2: monster in the episode, but there are things that are

473
00:25:54,210 --> 00:25:57,370
Speaker 2: close and there are a number of fascinating animal adaptations

474
00:25:57,430 --> 00:26:01,770
Speaker 2: that have evolved in nature's desperate quest for salt. Because

475
00:26:01,850 --> 00:26:05,270
Speaker 2: as we mentioned earlier, in the real world, salt is

476
00:26:05,350 --> 00:26:10,010
Speaker 2: very important. Animals need salt. We need many dietary minerals

477
00:26:10,090 --> 00:26:13,780
Speaker 2: in some quantities, magnesium, potassium, and things like that. But

478
00:26:14,220 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: sodium chloride is especially important because salt is necessary for

479
00:26:18,540 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 2: the proper functioning of nerves and muscles. Sodium ions present

480
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,419
Speaker 2: in the water content of our bodies, they help us

481
00:26:26,900 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: regulate fluid pressure. So if an animal has a serious

482
00:26:30,820 --> 00:26:33,980
Speaker 2: enough deficiency of salt, that will kill it. It will

483
00:26:34,020 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 2: suffer systematic collapse and eventually die. So again, like it's

484
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 2: shown in the episode, if you suck all the salt

485
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,580
Speaker 2: out of a person, that will kill them. Salt deficiency

486
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,139
Speaker 2: is not usually a problem for humans in industrialized societies

487
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 2: because we tend to get a lot of extra salt

488
00:26:50,740 --> 00:26:52,060
Speaker 2: in our diet. Oh, yeah.

489
00:26:52,140 --> 00:26:54,629
Speaker 1: Like we're hardwired to want it because we need it,

490
00:26:55,060 --> 00:26:58,410
Speaker 1: and therefore we like a lot of it. Yeah. Think

491
00:26:58,450 --> 00:27:01,390
Speaker 1: about what you had to eat during the last 48 hours.

492
00:27:01,670 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: And there was probably a fair amount of salt involved

493
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: in the process.

494
00:27:06,060 --> 00:27:08,340
Speaker 2: Yeah. And a lot of foods we eat have some

495
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 2: salt content naturally, but then we add even a lot

496
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,460
Speaker 2: more extra salt to that because, I mean, because it

497
00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:17,340
Speaker 2: tastes good. It boosts flavors. It makes things taste more

498
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,140
Speaker 2: like themselves. You know, it's a great dietary additive. So

499
00:27:21,260 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 2: it's no mystery why chefs use a lot of salt.

500
00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:27,700
Speaker 2: It is a great part of the pleasure sensation of eating.

501
00:27:28,420 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's much more likely that you're getting way

502
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: more salt than you need than that you're not getting enough.

503
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,940
Speaker 2: But of course there are exceptions to this. I mean,

504
00:27:38,340 --> 00:27:41,479
Speaker 2: you can, for example, we've talked on the show before

505
00:27:41,660 --> 00:27:46,810
Speaker 2: about hyponatremia, where maybe you go out hiking, you're sweating

506
00:27:46,850 --> 00:27:49,850
Speaker 2: a lot, you're drinking a lot of water, and You

507
00:27:49,900 --> 00:27:53,750
Speaker 2: find yourself getting, oh, experiencing unpleasant symptoms. Maybe you feel dizzy.

508
00:27:53,770 --> 00:27:56,410
Speaker 2: You've got a headache. You feel like, what, am I dehydrated?

509
00:27:56,450 --> 00:28:00,210
Speaker 2: So you just keep drinking more water and that's not helping.

510
00:28:00,250 --> 00:28:03,270
Speaker 2: In fact, maybe you're feeling worse. And it turns out

511
00:28:03,690 --> 00:28:06,310
Speaker 2: what sometimes is happening in these cases is actually your body,

512
00:28:06,350 --> 00:28:08,750
Speaker 2: you've had too much water and not enough salt and

513
00:28:08,770 --> 00:28:10,710
Speaker 2: you've been sweating a lot. So you're losing a lot

514
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,180
Speaker 2: of salt and now your body is salt deficient. You're

515
00:28:13,220 --> 00:28:16,270
Speaker 2: not like in the state of death yet. but you

516
00:28:16,690 --> 00:28:18,550
Speaker 2: are critically low on salt and you need to eat

517
00:28:18,570 --> 00:28:22,570
Speaker 2: some pretzels or something. This has actually happened to people

518
00:28:22,609 --> 00:28:27,460
Speaker 2: I know while hiking in the desert. They were being

519
00:28:27,500 --> 00:28:30,220
Speaker 2: very careful to stay hydrated, didn't think about the other

520
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,939
Speaker 2: end of the scale. You need water and salt. But

521
00:28:34,260 --> 00:28:38,780
Speaker 2: in nature, also, you can run into real salt deficiency issues.

522
00:28:39,380 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 2: And so turning to nature, I would like to look

523
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,670
Speaker 2: at some moths that crave salt. And we'll go to shocking,

524
00:28:46,890 --> 00:28:50,970
Speaker 2: disgusting lengths to get it. So as a bit of

525
00:28:51,030 --> 00:28:55,380
Speaker 2: background here, moths are a large group of insects in

526
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 2: the order Lepidoptera, along with their cousins, the butterflies. Exactly

527
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 2: how to taxonomize moths is a problem that has existed

528
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 2: for a while. But the insects that we call moths

529
00:29:07,260 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: are sometimes described as like those species of order Lepidoptera

530
00:29:11,780 --> 00:29:15,070
Speaker 2: that are not butterflies. The reality is a little more

531
00:29:15,110 --> 00:29:18,540
Speaker 2: complicated because it seems basically that butterflies are a type

532
00:29:18,700 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: of moth, like butterflies are a branch from the moth

533
00:29:21,940 --> 00:29:26,260
Speaker 2: family tree. There are thought to be more than 160,000

534
00:29:26,260 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 2: species of moths, most but not all of which are nocturnal,

535
00:29:31,180 --> 00:29:34,430
Speaker 2: so generally moths are among the children of the night.

536
00:29:35,070 --> 00:29:38,750
Speaker 2: And along with butterflies, moths go through a multi-stage life

537
00:29:38,810 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: cycle where they hatch from eggs, they become caterpillars, which

538
00:29:42,580 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 2: are these fat larval eating machines. And then when sufficiently fed,

539
00:29:47,060 --> 00:29:49,410
Speaker 2: they find a place to chill out and enter the

540
00:29:49,450 --> 00:29:52,970
Speaker 2: pupa stage where their outside usually hardens into a shell

541
00:29:53,010 --> 00:29:56,570
Speaker 2: of some sort. Their insides basically turn into full goo.

542
00:29:56,970 --> 00:30:01,210
Speaker 2: This is called histolysis. And then they reform and emerge

543
00:30:01,430 --> 00:30:06,150
Speaker 2: as a sexually mature moth with wings, which will fly around, mate,

544
00:30:06,430 --> 00:30:09,469
Speaker 2: and if female, lay eggs and eventually die. And then

545
00:30:09,510 --> 00:30:10,610
Speaker 2: the cycle begins again.

546
00:30:11,270 --> 00:30:13,930
Speaker 1: Moths are amazing. And it is kind of interesting to

547
00:30:13,970 --> 00:30:18,340
Speaker 1: think about butterflies and moths from the human perspective. We often,

548
00:30:18,630 --> 00:30:21,700
Speaker 1: I think maybe it's because we see butterflies as denizens

549
00:30:21,740 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: of the day and moths as nuisances of the night.

550
00:30:25,180 --> 00:30:27,820
Speaker 1: You know, we tend to go gaga over butterflies, and

551
00:30:27,860 --> 00:30:30,310
Speaker 1: maybe we find the moths a little annoying, quit trying

552
00:30:30,330 --> 00:30:32,670
Speaker 1: to come into my house when the doors open at night,

553
00:30:34,850 --> 00:30:36,670
Speaker 1: get away from my light bulbs and all that. But,

554
00:30:36,710 --> 00:30:39,770
Speaker 1: of course, we've talked about some amazing moths on here before,

555
00:30:39,790 --> 00:30:44,500
Speaker 1: you know, ant colony infiltrators and so forth. And, you know,

556
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: it was just maybe several weeks back, my wife spotted

557
00:30:49,140 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: a hummingbird moth. in our yard. And those are amazing.

558
00:30:53,940 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: At first you think it is a hummingbird, but it

559
00:30:55,460 --> 00:30:59,340
Speaker 1: is in fact a moth. So there's so many amazing

560
00:31:00,060 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: body morphs and lifestyles out there among the moth kind.

561
00:31:04,030 --> 00:31:06,370
Speaker 2: Absolutely true. And I like that you went to the

562
00:31:06,410 --> 00:31:09,930
Speaker 2: hummingbird moth because one thing that the hummingbird has that

563
00:31:09,970 --> 00:31:13,390
Speaker 2: makes it notable, of course, is that long needle-like beak.

564
00:31:14,470 --> 00:31:16,770
Speaker 2: And the studies that we're going to be looking at

565
00:31:16,830 --> 00:31:19,730
Speaker 2: here about moths are very concerned with a moth body

566
00:31:19,770 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 2: part that's equivalent called the proboscis. This is the elongated

567
00:31:24,420 --> 00:31:27,550
Speaker 2: appendage coming off of the animal's head. It's sort of

568
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:30,850
Speaker 2: a tubular mouth part used for feeding, like a big

569
00:31:30,930 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 2: hollow needle or a biological straw. Many insects will use

570
00:31:36,130 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 2: a proboscis to eat, for example, to suck nectar up

571
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 2: from inside a flower. And moths have a proboscis as well,

572
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,230
Speaker 2: which is used for various things. To kick off this

573
00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:51,490
Speaker 2: spooky moth journey, I want to begin by looking at

574
00:31:51,570 --> 00:31:55,690
Speaker 2: some papers I found from the late 1960s by a

575
00:31:55,810 --> 00:32:00,830
Speaker 2: Swiss entomologist named Hans Bonsicker, at the time affiliated with

576
00:32:00,870 --> 00:32:04,580
Speaker 2: the Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, who seems to

577
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 2: have specialized in moths. And this part was what made

578
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 2: me think we've really got to talk about these papers today.

579
00:32:11,060 --> 00:32:15,990
Speaker 2: Specialized in letting moths access his own personal body fluids

580
00:32:16,330 --> 00:32:20,250
Speaker 2: with biological equipment that seems to come from the Hellraiser universe.

581
00:32:21,170 --> 00:32:22,870
Speaker 2: So the first paper I want to look at is

582
00:32:22,950 --> 00:32:27,459
Speaker 2: from 1969. This was published in the Journal of Medical

583
00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:31,940
Speaker 2: Entomology by Hans Banziger and a co-author named Wilhelm Budecker.

584
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: And it's called Records of Eye-Frequenting Lepidoptera from Man.

585
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:37,870
Speaker 1: Hmm.

586
00:32:38,390 --> 00:32:41,830
Speaker 2: The authors start this paper off by discussing a curious

587
00:32:41,950 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 2: observation among a big family of moths. The first ones

588
00:32:46,380 --> 00:32:50,020
Speaker 2: they identify are the ones called the noctuids. A number

589
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:55,700
Speaker 2: of species of noctuid moths have been observed swarming around

590
00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: the eyes of large vertebrate animals. This is not just

591
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 2: in one place or in one species. It's a semi-global phenomenon.

592
00:33:05,980 --> 00:33:10,140
Speaker 2: It's been documented among various noctuids in South Africa, in

593
00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 2: modern-day Tanzania, in Cambodia, Thailand, India, and elsewhere since throughout

594
00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:20,020
Speaker 2: Africa and Asia. What kind of animal eyes do these

595
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,700
Speaker 2: moths seek out? Well, they don't seem to be super picky.

596
00:33:24,050 --> 00:33:28,470
Speaker 2: The eye swarming has been observed in domestic cattle, sheep, deer,

597
00:33:28,650 --> 00:33:33,870
Speaker 2: water buffalo, pigs, antelope, mules, horses, and elephants. It seems

598
00:33:33,930 --> 00:33:37,740
Speaker 2: the most common observations are in bovines, like cows. And

599
00:33:37,820 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: the authors note that there are some cases where you'd

600
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: come up on a single cow and it would have

601
00:33:43,380 --> 00:33:46,660
Speaker 2: literally a dozen moths crowded around the edge of a

602
00:33:46,740 --> 00:33:49,820
Speaker 2: single eye at one time. So it's like, imagine, you know,

603
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,250
Speaker 2: animals crowded around a shrinking watering hole in the desert

604
00:33:53,570 --> 00:33:56,870
Speaker 2: with just moths around a cow's eye. Now, why would

605
00:33:56,910 --> 00:33:59,930
Speaker 2: a moth want to land on a cow's eye or

606
00:33:59,950 --> 00:34:02,410
Speaker 2: a pig's eye or an elephant's eye and try to

607
00:34:02,450 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 2: hang out there? Wouldn't delicate moths usually want to avoid

608
00:34:07,140 --> 00:34:11,330
Speaker 2: large animals entirely for fear of being eaten or swatted

609
00:34:11,430 --> 00:34:14,049
Speaker 2: or crushed? You would think this is the danger zone

610
00:34:14,090 --> 00:34:14,450
Speaker 2: for them.

611
00:34:14,530 --> 00:34:17,370
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you would think. Stay away from the large

612
00:34:17,430 --> 00:34:20,740
Speaker 1: creatures that, you know, they might not have opposable thumbs

613
00:34:20,980 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: and fingers to swat at their own faces, but they

614
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,819
Speaker 1: still have ways of fighting you off. You know, an

615
00:34:26,900 --> 00:34:28,620
Speaker 1: elephant certainly can use that trunk.

616
00:34:29,310 --> 00:34:31,010
Speaker 2: I mean, they can certainly just shake around.

617
00:34:31,050 --> 00:34:31,230
Speaker 1: Yeah.

618
00:34:31,270 --> 00:34:34,790
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah. Or they could roll over on you. Like, yeah, you, you,

619
00:34:35,010 --> 00:34:37,380
Speaker 2: these are big. These animals are big compared to you.

620
00:34:37,450 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 2: Like it seems evident there must be something of value

621
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 2: to the moth around the animal's eye that would justify

622
00:34:43,660 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 2: the risk of doing like the human equivalent of parachute

623
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 2: landing on Godzilla's face.

624
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

625
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 2: Uh, so the authors note what the draw for the

626
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 2: moth seems to be, and it is lacrimal secretions, a.k.a.

627
00:34:59,010 --> 00:34:59,490
Speaker 1: Tears.

628
00:35:00,460 --> 00:35:03,420
Speaker 2: These moths are crawling up to the elephant's eye or

629
00:35:03,460 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 2: the pig's eye to drink its tears.

630
00:35:08,340 --> 00:35:09,980
Speaker 1: It's suffering. They want the suffering.

631
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: The suffering may or may not be incidental. Actually, the

632
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 2: suffering does seem to me to be part of the

633
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 2: process because you've got to kind of make sure that

634
00:35:20,219 --> 00:35:24,770
Speaker 2: the eyes are watering enough. So they also note that

635
00:35:24,850 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 2: some species of Lepidoptera have been found with traces of

636
00:35:28,820 --> 00:35:31,540
Speaker 2: blood detected in their stomachs. We'll come back to that

637
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,299
Speaker 2: in just a bit. But the real focus of this

638
00:35:34,340 --> 00:35:39,500
Speaker 2: paper begins with a curious, almost offhand comment. So Bonsegger

639
00:35:39,700 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: and Budecker write, quote, during nocturnal field studies of the biology, behavior, etc.

640
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 2: of eye-frequenting lepidoptera-infesting mammals, it often happens that such moths

641
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 2: fly about near the face of the human observer and

642
00:35:53,580 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 2: try to alight at its eyes. My God, I love

643
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 2: when I'm reading of like an older biology paper and

644
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,739
Speaker 2: you get to a comment like this and it's like

645
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,620
Speaker 2: at the beginning of the experimental section and you can

646
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,540
Speaker 2: start to feel it shifting. It's like, is this going

647
00:36:08,580 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 2: where I think it's going?

648
00:36:10,550 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: Yes, it is.

649
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,169
Speaker 2: The rest of this paper is about observations of these

650
00:36:15,230 --> 00:36:18,730
Speaker 2: moths trying to get access to human eyes and the

651
00:36:18,850 --> 00:36:22,190
Speaker 2: author just letting them going the extra step and seeing

652
00:36:22,250 --> 00:36:25,340
Speaker 2: what happens if he lets the moths go. So I'm

653
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,620
Speaker 2: going to read from a few of these examples experienced

654
00:36:27,690 --> 00:36:31,109
Speaker 2: by the authors, mainly Banziger himself, but also there are

655
00:36:32,190 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 2: some experiences described by his co-authors and employees and collaborators. Warning,

656
00:36:38,380 --> 00:36:39,940
Speaker 2: there is some eye squick coming.

657
00:36:40,380 --> 00:36:41,820
Speaker 1: And I want to go ahead and front load a

658
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: little additional squick here. We'll get into this, but I

659
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,220
Speaker 1: just want to remind everyone, butterflies don't just land on flowers.

660
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:53,569
Speaker 1: Moths don't just land around lightbulbs. these creatures land on

661
00:36:53,710 --> 00:36:57,089
Speaker 1: very gross things. So keep that in mind when all

662
00:36:57,130 --> 00:36:58,890
Speaker 1: the eyeball drinking takes place.

663
00:36:59,250 --> 00:37:03,839
Speaker 2: That's part of this paper's conclusion, actually. So, yeah. So,

664
00:37:04,460 --> 00:37:07,140
Speaker 2: first case he describes, this takes place in Muag Lek,

665
00:37:07,260 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 2: which is in central Thailand, in August 1965. And this

666
00:37:12,140 --> 00:37:14,739
Speaker 2: is Hans Bonsiger talking about his own experience. He says, quote,

667
00:37:15,380 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: while I was collecting specimens of three different eye-frequenting species...

668
00:37:19,850 --> 00:37:29,100
Speaker 2: Lobocraspis grisifusa, Philodes fulvidorsalis, and Peonea aureolalis. In a herd

669
00:37:29,140 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 2: of cattle, the latter pyrolid made continuous attempts for several

670
00:37:33,500 --> 00:37:36,940
Speaker 2: minutes to alight on my face. Finally, it alighted on

671
00:37:36,980 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 2: my left cheek near the nose and started immediately to

672
00:37:40,020 --> 00:37:43,540
Speaker 2: climb to the lower eyelid, where it imbibed the lacrimal

673
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,390
Speaker 2: secretion for about 15 seconds. The proboscis of the moth

674
00:37:48,340 --> 00:37:52,100
Speaker 2: could be felt probing over the eye surface. The eye

675
00:37:52,180 --> 00:37:56,900
Speaker 2: produced a considerable flow of lacrimation, and the irritation caused

676
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 2: by the moth was uncomfortable, although not at all painful.

677
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,969
Speaker 2: The moth remained feeding for 15 seconds, after which it

678
00:38:04,010 --> 00:38:08,029
Speaker 2: was collected for identification and fixation prior to dissection. So

679
00:38:08,070 --> 00:38:13,270
Speaker 2: joke's on you, moth. Then he describes another case, this

680
00:38:13,310 --> 00:38:17,270
Speaker 2: next one at the Chiang Mai Zoological Gardens in northern Thailand.

681
00:38:17,350 --> 00:38:21,030
Speaker 2: This is October 1965, where he says he's collecting some

682
00:38:21,180 --> 00:38:24,660
Speaker 2: eye-frequencing moths from the enclosure of a sambar deer. He

683
00:38:25,500 --> 00:38:28,380
Speaker 2: says one of the moths suddenly landed on his lips,

684
00:38:29,060 --> 00:38:32,430
Speaker 2: Bonsiger's lips, not the deer's, started trying to insert its

685
00:38:32,489 --> 00:38:36,230
Speaker 2: proboscis into his nose. And then after trying this for

686
00:38:36,250 --> 00:38:38,240
Speaker 2: a few seconds, it crawled up to his left eye,

687
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,489
Speaker 2: started stabbing his eyelid and his eyeball with its proboscis

688
00:38:42,550 --> 00:38:45,810
Speaker 2: at intervals of one to two seconds, which caused Banziger

689
00:38:45,850 --> 00:38:48,890
Speaker 2: to tear up, and then the moth drank the tears. Quote,

690
00:38:49,290 --> 00:38:52,250
Speaker 2: the painful effects could be described as resembling the pricks

691
00:38:52,350 --> 00:38:55,469
Speaker 2: of minute pins on the surface of the eye, not

692
00:38:55,530 --> 00:38:58,950
Speaker 2: the lid, although the proboscis was felt on the eyelids too.

693
00:38:59,950 --> 00:39:02,230
Speaker 2: And it drank his tears for about three minutes and

694
00:39:02,270 --> 00:39:06,370
Speaker 2: then flew away. There are a lot more accounts, again,

695
00:39:06,910 --> 00:39:11,009
Speaker 2: both firsthand of the author, And collaborators and employees, where

696
00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:14,350
Speaker 2: the moth attacks the eye, it inserts the feeding proboscis

697
00:39:14,570 --> 00:39:18,030
Speaker 2: into or around, like, into the eye, around the eyelid.

698
00:39:18,489 --> 00:39:22,230
Speaker 2: It stabs or scrapes for several minutes, causing varying degrees

699
00:39:22,270 --> 00:39:25,630
Speaker 2: of pain, irritation, and tearing up. And then eventually it

700
00:39:25,670 --> 00:39:27,190
Speaker 2: gets enough and it flies away.

701
00:39:27,989 --> 00:39:30,460
Speaker 1: Even in the name of science, they're just... like they're

702
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:31,700
Speaker 1: being way too lenient here.

703
00:39:31,980 --> 00:39:34,819
Speaker 2: There's one final case I have to mention. This is

704
00:39:34,900 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 2: the best one. This is the sixth case he describes.

705
00:39:38,500 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 2: This was in northern Thailand in October 1966, and I'm

706
00:39:42,020 --> 00:39:46,540
Speaker 2: just going to read from his description here. Quote, In

707
00:39:46,580 --> 00:39:49,940
Speaker 2: this experiment in my bungalow, I kept, he mentions two

708
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,260
Speaker 2: species of eye-frequenting moths, in my mosquito net for about

709
00:39:54,260 --> 00:39:56,650
Speaker 2: 50 hours without offering them any food.

710
00:39:56,910 --> 00:39:57,250
Speaker 1: Oh, no.

711
00:39:57,550 --> 00:40:00,530
Speaker 2: After having slept the entire night undisturbed by the moths,

712
00:40:00,690 --> 00:40:03,890
Speaker 2: I was attacked in the early morning by L. grisifusa.

713
00:40:04,550 --> 00:40:06,890
Speaker 2: I suddenly tried to drive the moth away, but it

714
00:40:06,950 --> 00:40:10,760
Speaker 2: returned instantly and endeavored to attach itself near my nose, lips,

715
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,340
Speaker 2: or ears. After a few minutes of unsuccessful probing, it

716
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,300
Speaker 2: located my left eye and immediately started to feed, remaining

717
00:40:18,380 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 2: quietly below the eyelid. I felt the usual irritating stings

718
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,009
Speaker 2: of short duration and closed my eyes in order to

719
00:40:25,070 --> 00:40:27,510
Speaker 2: find out whether this would cause the moth to withdraw

720
00:40:27,570 --> 00:40:30,709
Speaker 2: its proboscis. Interesting experiment. Close your eyes, see what it does.

721
00:40:30,890 --> 00:40:32,930
Speaker 2: I would have thought that he would have closed his

722
00:40:33,030 --> 00:40:35,460
Speaker 2: eyes in one of the earlier experiments, like he was

723
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,650
Speaker 2: able to resist earlier. But he goes on, he's like,

724
00:40:38,670 --> 00:40:42,250
Speaker 2: I'm going to try closing my eyes, see what happens. Quote, however,

725
00:40:42,330 --> 00:40:45,290
Speaker 2: the insect continued to suck from the eyelid from whence

726
00:40:45,350 --> 00:40:48,730
Speaker 2: I felt extremely sharp pain, which could be compared with

727
00:40:48,790 --> 00:40:52,870
Speaker 2: gradually penetrating stings. Whenever I opened my eyes, the pains

728
00:40:52,930 --> 00:40:55,230
Speaker 2: were felt on the surface of the eye. When I

729
00:40:55,330 --> 00:40:58,030
Speaker 2: closed them again, the moth resumed feeding on the lid.

730
00:40:58,489 --> 00:41:00,950
Speaker 2: The pains were relatively slight at the beginning of each

731
00:41:01,030 --> 00:41:04,149
Speaker 2: resumption of feeding on the lid. but they commenced immediately

732
00:41:04,270 --> 00:41:08,240
Speaker 2: and increased in strength considerably as feeding continued. The lacrimal

733
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,460
Speaker 2: secretion was very much stimulated by.

734
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,540
Speaker 1: The activity of the moths.

735
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:17,940
Speaker 2: I cried a lot. I cried so much. After 30 minutes,

736
00:41:18,060 --> 00:41:20,430
Speaker 2: my eye was so irritated that I was forced to

737
00:41:20,510 --> 00:41:24,230
Speaker 2: interrupt the experiment. A red discoloration of the eye and

738
00:41:24,290 --> 00:41:26,980
Speaker 2: the inner side of the eyelid was then apparent. The

739
00:41:27,020 --> 00:41:30,290
Speaker 2: inflammation lasted for the entire day, during which difficulty was

740
00:41:30,350 --> 00:41:32,470
Speaker 2: experienced in keeping the eye open.

741
00:41:32,730 --> 00:41:33,450
Speaker 1: Oh, my Lord.

742
00:41:33,630 --> 00:41:37,569
Speaker 2: And then he's got selfies. In 1960, whatever this is,

743
00:41:37,660 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 2: the 60s, it's got selfies of the author with a

744
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: moth in his eye with the proboscis stabbing in.

745
00:41:43,940 --> 00:41:48,049
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. And the second photo especially looking pretty rough. Yeah. Yeah.

746
00:41:48,790 --> 00:41:52,070
Speaker 2: Anyway, so the authors document a bunch of these attacks

747
00:41:52,390 --> 00:41:55,250
Speaker 2: on eyeballs of animals and humans, and they make a

748
00:41:55,290 --> 00:41:58,170
Speaker 2: few general comments at the end of the paper. They

749
00:41:58,190 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 2: say the attacks would be infrequent. You know, it's not

750
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,700
Speaker 2: all the time, and it doesn't seem to be all

751
00:42:03,900 --> 00:42:07,859
Speaker 2: of the individuals of this species. Sometimes you might get

752
00:42:07,980 --> 00:42:11,439
Speaker 2: no attacks for weeks, sometimes multiple attacks in the same night.

753
00:42:12,250 --> 00:42:17,060
Speaker 2: Some species seem to explore the face more, crawling around

754
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 2: to various wet spots or spots of dried secretions on

755
00:42:20,820 --> 00:42:23,100
Speaker 2: the face. I think that would mean like snot or

756
00:42:23,180 --> 00:42:27,859
Speaker 2: sweat or saliva before tending to gravitate toward the eye.

757
00:42:28,390 --> 00:42:31,089
Speaker 2: Others are more like a heat seeking missile straight to

758
00:42:31,110 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 2: the eye. No funny business. Different species produce different levels

759
00:42:35,739 --> 00:42:38,990
Speaker 2: of pain. Only some seem to be able to attack

760
00:42:39,030 --> 00:42:41,549
Speaker 2: through closed lids, like he was talking about in the

761
00:42:41,870 --> 00:42:46,860
Speaker 2: mosquito net example. And the authors note the relevance of

762
00:42:46,900 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 2: this behavior to animal and human epidemiology. They say insects

763
00:42:50,620 --> 00:42:54,540
Speaker 2: like this may actually be an important vector for infections.

764
00:42:54,890 --> 00:42:57,010
Speaker 2: They say some of the moths that feed on mammal

765
00:42:57,030 --> 00:43:00,870
Speaker 2: eyes may also be sticking their proboscis, if that's the plural,

766
00:43:00,910 --> 00:43:04,830
Speaker 2: I guess, their nose parts, their mouth parts, into animal dung,

767
00:43:04,989 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 2: into decaying organic matter such as rotting bodies. Those tubes

768
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:11,100
Speaker 2: are going in all kinds of stuff.

769
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're gross. This is butterflies and moths, by the way.

770
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: So don't think for a second that your daytime butterflies

771
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,100
Speaker 1: are somehow immune to this behavior.

772
00:43:22,650 --> 00:43:25,170
Speaker 2: My daughter actually has a children's book that we received

773
00:43:25,250 --> 00:43:28,399
Speaker 2: as a gift from our co-worker Tracy Wilson of Stuff

774
00:43:28,420 --> 00:43:31,020
Speaker 2: You Missed in History class called Butterflies Are Pretty Gross.

775
00:43:31,060 --> 00:43:33,340
Speaker 2: It's about how they're pretty and they're gross.

776
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: Oh, that's awesome.

777
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,819
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's a great book, and it has all

778
00:43:37,860 --> 00:43:41,250
Speaker 2: kinds of stuff about this in it. They are pretty gross. Anyway,

779
00:43:42,230 --> 00:43:47,390
Speaker 2: this tear-drinking activity is known as lacrophagy, which comes from

780
00:43:47,410 --> 00:43:52,410
Speaker 2: the words meaning tear-eating, tear-consumption. It is seen most often

781
00:43:52,610 --> 00:43:55,590
Speaker 2: in moths and butterflies, but it has also been observed

782
00:43:55,730 --> 00:44:00,109
Speaker 2: in flies and some bees. And while tears contain some

783
00:44:00,170 --> 00:44:05,459
Speaker 2: amount of protein and other dietary nutrients, entomologists generally think

784
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 2: that one of the main reasons for drinking tears, this

785
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,220
Speaker 2: brings us back to the salt monster, is to acquire sodium.

786
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 2: Fluids that come from animal bodies are salty. They have

787
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,509
Speaker 2: to be for the reasons we talked about earlier. Salt

788
00:44:19,620 --> 00:44:23,570
Speaker 2: is so important for the functioning of muscles and nerve

789
00:44:23,630 --> 00:44:27,850
Speaker 2: cells and fluid maintenance. It is not very hard for

790
00:44:28,050 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: carnivorous animals to get the salt they need because animal

791
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,939
Speaker 2: bodies are salty. So if you eat animals, you get

792
00:44:35,060 --> 00:44:39,020
Speaker 2: salt naturally from your diet. Herbivores, on the other hand,

793
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,100
Speaker 2: are often at the more desperate end of the quest

794
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,350
Speaker 2: for salt. Plants tend to be low in sodium content.

795
00:44:45,780 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 2: So herbivores have to find other ways to acquire salt

796
00:44:49,460 --> 00:44:50,460
Speaker 2: from the environment.

797
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that leads to the reality of salt licks,

798
00:44:55,420 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 1: various herbivores seeking out salt even in caves over vast distances.

799
00:45:02,700 --> 00:45:06,100
Speaker 1: I imagine a number of you have seen documentary footage

800
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,069
Speaker 1: at this point of elephants seeking out salt in caves.

801
00:45:09,660 --> 00:45:12,609
Speaker 1: It's quite remarkable. But yeah, when you understand that it's

802
00:45:12,630 --> 00:45:16,930
Speaker 1: just not as... potent a part of their natural diet,

803
00:45:16,969 --> 00:45:19,290
Speaker 1: you understand why they have to supplement it this way.

804
00:45:19,570 --> 00:45:21,890
Speaker 1: And sometimes carnivores, of course, have to supplement as well.

805
00:45:21,989 --> 00:45:25,690
Speaker 1: But when they eat the meat, they get the salt.

806
00:45:26,350 --> 00:45:29,689
Speaker 2: Right. But tear drinking moths, if they eat anything other

807
00:45:29,730 --> 00:45:32,850
Speaker 2: than tears in their winged adult stage, they're herbivores. So

808
00:45:33,250 --> 00:45:36,509
Speaker 2: they need the salt. Now, of course, tears are not

809
00:45:36,570 --> 00:45:40,710
Speaker 2: the only way to get extra salt. There are other

810
00:45:40,770 --> 00:45:44,069
Speaker 2: places an insect could probe if looking for salt. And

811
00:45:44,150 --> 00:45:48,290
Speaker 2: that brings me to something called the vampire moth. I

812
00:45:48,330 --> 00:45:51,049
Speaker 2: think this might be the closest example in nature to

813
00:45:51,150 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 2: something like the salt vampire from Star Trek. The term

814
00:45:55,340 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 2: vampire moth has been used to refer to several species

815
00:45:58,780 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 2: of the moth genus Calyptra. Most often the species Calyptra thalictree.

816
00:46:04,540 --> 00:46:09,370
Speaker 2: These are moths mostly found in tropical and subtropical Asia that, yes,

817
00:46:09,550 --> 00:46:13,609
Speaker 2: actually do drink blood. And by golly, you know what?

818
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,100
Speaker 2: I found a paper from the 60s where good old

819
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,569
Speaker 2: Hans Bonsiger is like, what happens if I let one

820
00:46:20,590 --> 00:46:22,470
Speaker 2: of these guys go to town on my flesh?

821
00:46:22,630 --> 00:46:25,550
Speaker 1: Oh my God, he's just far too lenient. Of course

822
00:46:25,590 --> 00:46:26,189
Speaker 1: it's this guy.

823
00:46:27,550 --> 00:46:32,490
Speaker 2: The paper is called Preliminary Observations on a Skin-Piercing Blood-Sucking Moth.

824
00:46:32,860 --> 00:46:36,819
Speaker 2: He gives the taxonomy in Malaya. This is in the

825
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 2: Bulletin of Entomological Research, 1968. So this paper starts off

826
00:46:41,620 --> 00:46:44,529
Speaker 2: with the author talking about how Among some of the

827
00:46:44,810 --> 00:46:49,410
Speaker 2: eye-frequenting moths discussed previously, dead specimens have been found with

828
00:46:49,550 --> 00:46:52,669
Speaker 2: blood in their stomachs. Remember that? It came up last time.

829
00:46:53,050 --> 00:46:57,970
Speaker 2: How'd that get there? What's that doing there? Well, entomologists

830
00:46:58,170 --> 00:47:02,870
Speaker 2: observed the answer in fieldwork in Southeast Asia between 1965

831
00:47:02,870 --> 00:47:07,170
Speaker 2: and 67, where they saw firsthand two different kinds of

832
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:12,310
Speaker 2: blood-consuming behavior in moths. what the authors call bloodsuckers and

833
00:47:12,590 --> 00:47:18,900
Speaker 2: skin lickers. Bloodsuckers have a strong proboscis, which pierces animal

834
00:47:18,940 --> 00:47:21,940
Speaker 2: skin like a needle, allowing them to suck blood out

835
00:47:22,020 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 2: like a mosquito. Except these moths are, of course, larger

836
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,990
Speaker 2: than mosquitoes. So, you know, you're dealing with a meatier

837
00:47:30,050 --> 00:47:34,549
Speaker 2: kind of piercing organ, usually. Skin lickers, on the other hand,

838
00:47:34,730 --> 00:47:38,750
Speaker 2: tend to have a weaker proboscis, incapable of punching through

839
00:47:38,770 --> 00:47:41,939
Speaker 2: an animal's skin, And these moths instead get their blood

840
00:47:42,140 --> 00:47:46,310
Speaker 2: either by sucking it from an open wound or by

841
00:47:46,570 --> 00:47:50,950
Speaker 2: sucking up little droplets left behind on a mammal's skin

842
00:47:50,969 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 2: by mosquitoes. Kind of a mosquito cleanup crew. And some

843
00:47:56,500 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 2: of these skin lickers, by the way, also drink tears

844
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:00,940
Speaker 2: from the eyes like the ones we talked about earlier.

845
00:48:01,020 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 2: So there are multiple strategies. This paper is particularly focused

846
00:48:05,940 --> 00:48:12,590
Speaker 2: on a blood-sucking moth called Calyptra eustrigata. This kind has

847
00:48:12,730 --> 00:48:16,270
Speaker 2: a powerful proboscis that can puncture skin and suck blood directly.

848
00:48:16,890 --> 00:48:19,230
Speaker 2: And these moths have been observed to drink blood from

849
00:48:19,350 --> 00:48:23,810
Speaker 2: large mammals like deer, antelope, water buffalo, and the tapir.

850
00:48:25,090 --> 00:48:29,819
Speaker 2: After cataloging field observations, the author is like, Raider, yes, yes,

851
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,970
Speaker 2: I will let this moth suck my blood. And so here,

852
00:48:33,030 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 2: once again, I just have to read from Banziger's firsthand

853
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 2: account of how he gets it to drink his blood.

854
00:48:39,700 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 2: He says, quote, By breathing upon the moths, their attention

855
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:48,930
Speaker 2: was drawn to moistened fingers held inside the cages. Isn't

856
00:48:48,969 --> 00:48:54,210
Speaker 2: there something kind of almost romantic about that? Anyway, as

857
00:48:54,290 --> 00:48:57,330
Speaker 2: soon as the moth encountered the fingers, it settled on

858
00:48:57,450 --> 00:48:59,650
Speaker 2: one of them and began to palpate the skin with

859
00:48:59,710 --> 00:49:04,530
Speaker 2: its proboscis. and shortly thereafter thrust the proboscis vertically against

860
00:49:04,610 --> 00:49:07,839
Speaker 2: the skin and tried to pierce it. The spots most

861
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,780
Speaker 2: commonly pierced appeared to be the pores of the hairs.

862
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,710
Speaker 2: The dagger-shaped sclerotized tip of the proboscis was pressed against

863
00:49:15,790 --> 00:49:19,569
Speaker 2: the skin, so the whole proboscis became curved. At the

864
00:49:19,610 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 2: same time, the moth's head began to oscillate, rather like

865
00:49:23,060 --> 00:49:26,779
Speaker 2: the balance wheel of a watch. This movement induced the

866
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,810
Speaker 2: middle part of the proboscis to vibrate so rapidly that

867
00:49:29,850 --> 00:49:34,910
Speaker 2: the whole resembled a spindle. Whenever the skin proved impenetrable,

868
00:49:34,950 --> 00:49:38,489
Speaker 2: the moth tried again at another point nearby. As soon

869
00:49:38,530 --> 00:49:42,009
Speaker 2: as the proboscis successfully perforated the skin, the subject felt

870
00:49:42,130 --> 00:49:45,340
Speaker 2: strong burning pains, which were described as being like those

871
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 2: caused by a hot needle. Thereafter, the rate of penetration

872
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,620
Speaker 2: was more rapid, probably because the tissue encountered was softer,

873
00:49:53,020 --> 00:49:56,180
Speaker 2: and the sawing mechanism worked more efficiently as the barbs

874
00:49:56,239 --> 00:50:00,210
Speaker 2: of the proboscis gripped the tissues. Once inserted, the proboscis

875
00:50:00,270 --> 00:50:04,030
Speaker 2: remained straight, whilst the oscillating movements of the head continued.

876
00:50:04,590 --> 00:50:07,219
Speaker 2: It was possible to study the working of the mouthparts

877
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,620
Speaker 2: with a magnifying glass. When they were in operation, the

878
00:50:10,660 --> 00:50:13,940
Speaker 2: two halves of the proboscis moved rapidly along their longer

879
00:50:14,100 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 2: axis in opposite directions. This mechanism was effective, provided that

880
00:50:18,660 --> 00:50:21,450
Speaker 2: at the outset sufficient force could be brought to bear

881
00:50:21,530 --> 00:50:25,310
Speaker 2: to thrust the proboscis into the tissues, because one half

882
00:50:25,530 --> 00:50:28,570
Speaker 2: of the proboscis could then anchor itself within the tissues

883
00:50:28,630 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 2: whilst the other penetrated more deeply. It goes on describing

884
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,240
Speaker 2: the action, the oscillating motion of the head, the boring

885
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,320
Speaker 2: action of the proboscis going up and down at regular

886
00:50:39,420 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 2: intervals with a hole in the skin. There's a lot

887
00:50:43,020 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 2: of stuff about the fluids here. Like sometimes the moth

888
00:50:45,780 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 2: is leaking some saliva out around the wound. Sometimes some

889
00:50:49,300 --> 00:50:52,620
Speaker 2: blood gets out, like it maybe regurgitates some blood and

890
00:50:52,660 --> 00:50:56,710
Speaker 2: then sucks it back up. He says, yeah, after the

891
00:50:56,790 --> 00:51:00,489
Speaker 2: blood was regurgitated, it was quickly re-ingested. Uh, the sawing

892
00:51:00,550 --> 00:51:03,700
Speaker 2: motion continues. So there's a lot going on here. It

893
00:51:03,780 --> 00:51:06,700
Speaker 2: is a laborious process from the moth's point of view. Uh,

894
00:51:07,340 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 2: and apparently feels like a hot needle going into the skin.

895
00:51:11,380 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 2: Bonsaker did this 26 times. In 16 of those times,

896
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:18,900
Speaker 2: the moth sucked his blood. In four, the moth sucked

897
00:51:18,940 --> 00:51:21,940
Speaker 2: blood from an existing open wound that he made with

898
00:51:21,980 --> 00:51:25,950
Speaker 2: a knife. Um, In six cases, the moth did not

899
00:51:26,010 --> 00:51:28,330
Speaker 2: seem to care. It either did not pierce his skin

900
00:51:28,410 --> 00:51:33,450
Speaker 2: because it wasn't trying or because it wasn't able to. Eventually,

901
00:51:33,590 --> 00:51:35,989
Speaker 2: in each case, the wound would start to swell. He

902
00:51:36,030 --> 00:51:39,739
Speaker 2: says the penetration was generally about six millimeters deep. And

903
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:42,700
Speaker 2: across these different feeding events, blood sucking went on anywhere

904
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:55,830
Speaker 2: from 10 to 60 minutes. Now, the really interesting thing

905
00:51:55,890 --> 00:52:01,030
Speaker 2: about these blood-sucking vampire moths is that they come from taxa,

906
00:52:01,110 --> 00:52:06,089
Speaker 2: from insect groups that typically use their sharp mouthparts to

907
00:52:06,350 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 2: pierce and suck fruit, not animal flesh. And even Calyptra

908
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 2: eustrogata itself has been observed piercing fruit. So these are

909
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:20,420
Speaker 2: also fruit suckers in addition to being blood suckers. The

910
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:24,620
Speaker 2: author argues it is likely. that these vampire moths evolved

911
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 2: the blood sucking behavior as a repurposing of adaptations that

912
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:33,379
Speaker 2: were originally for fruit sucking. And there are a couple

913
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 2: of possible benefits to switching from fruit to blood, or

914
00:52:37,460 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 2: at least adding blood to the repertoire of your fruit

915
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 2: piercing behaviors. First of all, ripe fruit can in some

916
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 2: cases be seasonally limited. Animal blood is going to be

917
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:51,649
Speaker 2: available throughout the year generally. And also, blood has some

918
00:52:52,010 --> 00:52:54,990
Speaker 2: things that you don't usually get in fruit. It's likely

919
00:52:55,030 --> 00:52:57,410
Speaker 2: to have some protein that is not present in fruit

920
00:52:58,030 --> 00:53:03,940
Speaker 2: and precious salts. So again, most moths are herbivores. As

921
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:08,219
Speaker 2: with other herbivores, acquiring salt is a major concern. And

922
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,620
Speaker 2: whether through tears or blood, animal body fluids are an

923
00:53:11,900 --> 00:53:17,950
Speaker 2: excellent place for otherwise herbivorous animals to stock up on salt. Now,

924
00:53:18,150 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 2: the question is, how did these different behaviors evolve? We

925
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,700
Speaker 2: looked at the idea that blood drinking is probably an

926
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:28,780
Speaker 2: exaptation of mouthparts originally used to pierce and suck juices

927
00:53:28,860 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 2: from ripe fruits. But when we go back to the

928
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:37,390
Speaker 2: tear drinking example, a commonly accepted theory is that lacrophagy

929
00:53:37,489 --> 00:53:43,270
Speaker 2: evolved from mud puddling behavior. where these lepidopterans, these moths

930
00:53:43,310 --> 00:53:46,210
Speaker 2: and butterflies, would get salts and other nutrients by consuming

931
00:53:46,430 --> 00:53:50,190
Speaker 2: mud or damp soil, because generally there is some salt

932
00:53:50,310 --> 00:53:50,990
Speaker 2: in the soil.

933
00:53:51,610 --> 00:53:54,390
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is something you can observe on nature walks.

934
00:53:54,489 --> 00:53:57,150
Speaker 1: There'll be some gross mud, and the butterflies are all

935
00:53:57,230 --> 00:54:00,390
Speaker 1: over it, or the moths are on it. And it's

936
00:54:00,430 --> 00:54:03,049
Speaker 1: my understanding, too, that the term puddling is kind of

937
00:54:03,090 --> 00:54:06,890
Speaker 1: a catch-all for not only lighting on mud and mud puddles,

938
00:54:06,950 --> 00:54:09,490
Speaker 1: but also dung and carrion, like we've been discussing.

939
00:54:10,170 --> 00:54:12,090
Speaker 2: That's right. I mean, even when it's just mud, it

940
00:54:12,130 --> 00:54:15,460
Speaker 2: seems to be it's it looks like they're intentionally choosing

941
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:18,580
Speaker 2: the grossest patches of mud. When I've seen this in nature,

942
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,219
Speaker 2: it always looks like it's somewhere really nasty. Yeah.

943
00:54:21,380 --> 00:54:24,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Like there's probably something dead in there, too. Yeah.

944
00:54:24,300 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: So so you can imagine if these things are landing

945
00:54:27,300 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 1: on gross mud and certainly if they're landing on rotting bodies,

946
00:54:32,140 --> 00:54:33,780
Speaker 1: it's not that big of a step to then move

947
00:54:33,910 --> 00:54:37,070
Speaker 1: on to just sleeping bodies or the bodies of scientists

948
00:54:37,110 --> 00:54:41,100
Speaker 1: that seem surprisingly inviting. and open-eyed.

949
00:54:43,410 --> 00:54:45,810
Speaker 2: So there are some more interesting things about this I

950
00:54:45,850 --> 00:54:48,590
Speaker 2: want to get into. So there's one last paper I'm

951
00:54:48,610 --> 00:54:51,870
Speaker 2: going to bring up. This one is by Sharon R. Hill,

952
00:54:51,969 --> 00:54:57,509
Speaker 2: Jennifer Zaspel, Susan Weller, Bill Hansen, and Richard Ignell called

953
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 2: To Be or Not to Be a Vampire, a Matter

954
00:55:01,219 --> 00:55:05,980
Speaker 2: of Syncyllum Numbers in Calypterothelictry. This was published in Arthropod

955
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,690
Speaker 2: Structure and Development in the year 2010. couple of things

956
00:55:09,750 --> 00:55:12,029
Speaker 2: I want to discuss from this paper. One is the

957
00:55:12,170 --> 00:55:15,630
Speaker 2: purpose of the blood meal. And the second thing is

958
00:55:15,950 --> 00:55:22,620
Speaker 2: what separates the vampire moths from non-vampires of the same species.

959
00:55:23,940 --> 00:55:26,779
Speaker 2: So for the first question, the authors get into this

960
00:55:26,820 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 2: in their background section. Generally, in the Calyptra species that

961
00:55:31,780 --> 00:55:36,350
Speaker 2: suck blood, only the males do it. That's interesting. And

962
00:55:36,390 --> 00:55:38,370
Speaker 2: that's kind of an inversion of things we've seen in

963
00:55:38,430 --> 00:55:42,250
Speaker 2: other species. Like, Rob, isn't it the case with mosquitoes

964
00:55:42,350 --> 00:55:45,010
Speaker 2: that generally only the females consume a blood meal?

965
00:55:45,410 --> 00:55:46,290
Speaker 1: This is true. Yes.

966
00:55:46,810 --> 00:55:49,750
Speaker 2: Opposite thing going on here. In the Calyptra, only the

967
00:55:49,790 --> 00:55:52,259
Speaker 2: males drink blood. And in the cases where they do

968
00:55:52,300 --> 00:55:56,299
Speaker 2: drink blood, most insects that suck blood are, of course,

969
00:55:56,380 --> 00:55:59,500
Speaker 2: able to digest that blood. That makes sense. You want

970
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 2: to get nutrition from the blood. So there's going to

971
00:56:01,260 --> 00:56:04,319
Speaker 2: be protein content in the blood. And you want your

972
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:07,760
Speaker 2: digestive system to break down that protein and get energy

973
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:11,180
Speaker 2: from it. So you have these enzymes called proteases. These

974
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:15,590
Speaker 2: enzymes break down and get energy from proteins. But calyptromoths

975
00:56:16,070 --> 00:56:20,070
Speaker 2: do not express these proteases. So they are not actually

976
00:56:20,170 --> 00:56:25,310
Speaker 2: getting a caloric nutritional benefit from the protein content of

977
00:56:25,350 --> 00:56:30,450
Speaker 2: the blood they drink. The author is right, quote, And

978
00:56:30,510 --> 00:56:33,390
Speaker 2: in fact, the majority of red blood cells are found

979
00:56:33,530 --> 00:56:37,390
Speaker 2: densely packed and intact in the anal excreta from the

980
00:56:37,430 --> 00:56:41,930
Speaker 2: male post-blood meal. So they're drinking blood, but they're not

981
00:56:41,969 --> 00:56:45,730
Speaker 2: getting protein nutrition from the blood. They're just pooping out

982
00:56:45,770 --> 00:56:50,370
Speaker 2: the red blood cells. On the other hand, male moths

983
00:56:50,410 --> 00:56:54,730
Speaker 2: have been found to be incredibly efficient at storing salt

984
00:56:54,870 --> 00:56:59,060
Speaker 2: contents from various sources. from a blood meal, or from

985
00:56:59,100 --> 00:57:04,580
Speaker 2: other sources, preserving up to 95% of the salt consumed.

986
00:57:04,700 --> 00:57:08,259
Speaker 2: Like males of other moth species have been observed keeping

987
00:57:08,340 --> 00:57:12,450
Speaker 2: internal salt caches from things like tear drinking. Now we

988
00:57:12,489 --> 00:57:15,770
Speaker 2: know that salt is important for organisms, that you need

989
00:57:15,810 --> 00:57:18,050
Speaker 2: it for various things in the body, but what are

990
00:57:18,090 --> 00:57:22,070
Speaker 2: the males doing with all that stored up salt? Well,

991
00:57:22,190 --> 00:57:24,790
Speaker 2: some researchers named Adler and Pearson in 1982 proposed an

992
00:57:24,810 --> 00:57:31,020
Speaker 2: answer here. And it's called the male dowry hypothesis, or

993
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:35,420
Speaker 2: what you might call like romantic salt gift, the sexy salt.

994
00:57:36,340 --> 00:57:40,870
Speaker 2: Under this model, in habitats where access to sodium through

995
00:57:40,890 --> 00:57:45,970
Speaker 2: the moth's normal plant diet is limited, sequestered salts held

996
00:57:46,050 --> 00:57:49,900
Speaker 2: in reserve by a male moth are transferred to a

997
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:54,410
Speaker 2: female during reproduction as a gift to help the female

998
00:57:54,510 --> 00:57:57,690
Speaker 2: replenish salts that she's going to lose during the production

999
00:57:57,730 --> 00:58:00,850
Speaker 2: of eggs. And the authors of the paper here cite

1000
00:58:00,910 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 2: Banzaker for the idea that this general principle is also

1001
00:58:05,020 --> 00:58:08,220
Speaker 2: what's seen in the sequestration of salts by male calyptra

1002
00:58:08,260 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 2: moths after a blood meal. So it seems very possible

1003
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 2: that's what's going on here. When these male calyptra moths

1004
00:58:15,180 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 2: come up to a guy and they pierce his finger

1005
00:58:17,780 --> 00:58:20,310
Speaker 2: and drink blood from it yet again, They are hoping

1006
00:58:20,350 --> 00:58:22,890
Speaker 2: to be able to store this up as a gift

1007
00:58:22,990 --> 00:58:26,530
Speaker 2: for a future mating partner to help her replenish salt's

1008
00:58:26,630 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 2: loss during oviposition. Oh, wow. Now, that second question I

1009
00:58:31,660 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 2: posed was, what separates the vampire moths from the non-vampires

1010
00:58:36,100 --> 00:58:39,850
Speaker 2: of the same species? To set that up, I'm going

1011
00:58:39,870 --> 00:58:42,630
Speaker 2: to read from the author's abstract here because they sort

1012
00:58:42,650 --> 00:58:45,710
Speaker 2: of explain how they get to this question. Quote, The

1013
00:58:45,810 --> 00:58:49,350
Speaker 2: mechanisms by which blood feeding in insects has evolved are unclear,

1014
00:58:49,450 --> 00:58:52,820
Speaker 2: primarily because there has been no access to species in

1015
00:58:52,860 --> 00:58:56,140
Speaker 2: which there is a mixture of same-sex blood feeding and

1016
00:58:56,260 --> 00:59:00,580
Speaker 2: non-blood feeding individuals. The discovery of a subset of male

1017
00:59:00,660 --> 00:59:06,230
Speaker 2: Calyptera thalictarii that blood feed under constrained experimental conditions, while

1018
00:59:06,270 --> 00:59:09,710
Speaker 2: the majority of these males do not, provides a unique

1019
00:59:09,730 --> 00:59:01,190
Speaker 2: opportunity I like that two-word verb there, blood feed. So

1020
00:59:01,210 --> 00:59:02,610
Speaker 2: what made the difference here? Why do some of these

1021
00:59:02,670 --> 00:59:28,189
Speaker 2: moths eat blood and some don't? Previously, researchers could not

1022
00:59:28,250 --> 00:59:31,590
Speaker 2: find any morphological differences between males that drank blood and

1023
00:59:31,610 --> 00:59:34,060
Speaker 2: those that did not. But in this experiment, the authors

1024
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 2: did find a difference. They found that males that drank

1025
00:59:38,340 --> 00:59:43,140
Speaker 2: blood had differences on their antennae, which made them less

1026
00:59:43,580 --> 00:59:48,860
Speaker 2: sensitive to particular olfactory compounds. They were less sensitive to

1027
00:59:48,900 --> 00:59:54,410
Speaker 2: certain smells. What smells are those? Well, the volatiles associated

1028
00:59:54,530 --> 00:59:58,990
Speaker 2: with vertebrate animal bodies, things the authors mentioned like ammonia

1029
00:59:59,270 --> 01:00:04,090
Speaker 2: and short chain carboxylic acids. These are compounds that I

1030
01:00:04,110 --> 01:00:06,110
Speaker 2: guess they're going to be hovering in the air, I think,

1031
01:00:06,150 --> 01:00:10,230
Speaker 2: around most vertebrates. And the normal reaction of a moth

1032
01:00:10,370 --> 01:00:14,360
Speaker 2: to these chemical cues in the air is repulsion. I

1033
01:00:14,430 --> 01:00:17,250
Speaker 2: smell a Godzilla. I smell a big thing around me.

1034
01:00:17,260 --> 01:00:17,960
Speaker 1: Stay out of its face.

1035
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. Get away from it. Avoid this thing. It could

1036
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:24,220
Speaker 2: hurt me. Because the big animal is usually only a threat,

1037
01:00:24,380 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 2: not an opportunity. The morphological difference in blood-drinking moths of

1038
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:32,950
Speaker 2: the same species is that they are the ones that

1039
01:00:33,050 --> 01:00:38,930
Speaker 2: are less sensitive, apparently, to big vertebrate animal smell. Thus,

1040
01:00:38,990 --> 01:00:43,050
Speaker 2: the repulsion reaction is less likely to be triggered. Thus,

1041
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:45,980
Speaker 2: they're more likely to just land on you and start

1042
01:00:46,100 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 2: probing around for salt juice.

1043
01:00:47,780 --> 01:00:48,660
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1044
01:00:49,660 --> 01:00:52,180
Speaker 2: So I like that too. You might've, you might've imagined

1045
01:00:52,220 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 2: a different mechanism making the difference. I don't know, like

1046
01:00:54,420 --> 01:00:57,500
Speaker 2: a special need for salt or something else, but it

1047
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:00,600
Speaker 2: seems like maybe the big difference here is that all

1048
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:03,620
Speaker 2: these moths could benefit from getting some extra salt and

1049
01:01:03,660 --> 01:01:06,340
Speaker 2: they have the, you know, the needle like mouth parts

1050
01:01:06,430 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 2: to jab in through the skin and get to it.

1051
01:01:08,630 --> 01:01:12,690
Speaker 2: But some of the moths, uh, are more fearless than others.

1052
01:01:12,770 --> 01:01:16,950
Speaker 2: They're less afraid of the, to them, Godzilla sized vertebrate

1053
01:01:17,030 --> 01:01:18,230
Speaker 2: animal wandering around.

1054
01:01:18,250 --> 01:01:19,190
Speaker 1: Oh, wow.

1055
01:01:19,930 --> 01:01:22,950
Speaker 2: So tear drinking moths and blood drinking moths. I propose

1056
01:01:23,010 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 2: these as the best real world counterpart to the salt

1057
01:01:27,580 --> 01:01:29,100
Speaker 2: vampire of Star Trek.

1058
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 1: Wow. I think so. I think that's a, it's a

1059
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 1: pretty solid lock and hopefully everyone will look at moths

1060
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 1: a little differently now too. And again, not all moths

1061
01:01:37,180 --> 01:01:41,040
Speaker 1: do this, but, uh, but, you know, now you might

1062
01:01:41,100 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 1: imagine them on their behavior a little differently. Um, Man,

1063
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 1: and this whole bit about Dr. Hans Banziger, fascinating. I

1064
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:52,500
Speaker 1: had to look him up. I couldn't find, I think

1065
01:01:52,540 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 1: he might still be with us. Really? Yeah, it looks

1066
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:59,430
Speaker 1: like he was, at least as recently as 2012, he

1067
01:01:59,470 --> 01:02:03,430
Speaker 1: was still active, living in Thailand, but getting up in age.

1068
01:02:04,230 --> 01:02:09,790
Speaker 1: I did not find anything concerning his obituary, so maybe

1069
01:02:09,830 --> 01:02:14,430
Speaker 1: he's out there right now. Still discovering and chronicling new

1070
01:02:14,470 --> 01:02:16,590
Speaker 1: species of moth in the wild. Maybe.

1071
01:02:16,650 --> 01:02:18,250
Speaker 2: I didn't follow up on his biography.

1072
01:02:18,990 --> 01:02:24,070
Speaker 1: There's an interesting article titled Vampire Moths, Dastardly Orchids, and

1073
01:02:24,150 --> 01:02:29,170
Speaker 1: Tear-Sipping Bees, Dr. Hans Banziger's Fascinating Finds. And this was

1074
01:02:29,550 --> 01:02:31,370
Speaker 1: published in City Life Chiang Mai.

1075
01:02:31,910 --> 01:02:33,490
Speaker 2: Oh, you'll have to share that in the chat. I

1076
01:02:33,510 --> 01:02:35,050
Speaker 2: want to read that after we're done recording here.

1077
01:02:35,430 --> 01:02:38,190
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. It's brief. It goes over some of the

1078
01:02:38,210 --> 01:02:41,310
Speaker 1: stuff we already talked about here, but gives a little

1079
01:02:41,350 --> 01:02:46,030
Speaker 1: more biographical information about him. So I do recommend it. Well,

1080
01:02:46,070 --> 01:02:47,760
Speaker 1: you know, I'd say I don't have too much else

1081
01:02:47,780 --> 01:02:51,660
Speaker 1: to say about salt vampires other than in the Star

1082
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 1: Trek episode, coming back again to its desire and maybe

1083
01:02:57,160 --> 01:03:00,580
Speaker 1: need to be loved. I couldn't help but think about

1084
01:03:01,540 --> 01:03:05,350
Speaker 1: the way Various non-human animals, but especially dogs and cats,

1085
01:03:05,910 --> 01:03:10,090
Speaker 1: worm their way into our affection by essentially mimicking lovable

1086
01:03:10,170 --> 01:03:13,930
Speaker 1: or cute features that we find admirable in human infants,

1087
01:03:14,030 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 1: you know? Yeah, yeah. The cat, and certainly the kitten,

1088
01:03:16,910 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 1: kind of looks like a baby. The puppy feels like

1089
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 1: a baby. And so they manage to hijack our emotions.

1090
01:03:23,660 --> 01:03:26,500
Speaker 1: The salt vampire engages, though, obviously, in a more direct

1091
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 1: form of this.

1092
01:03:27,860 --> 01:03:31,910
Speaker 2: Right, because the salt vampire... doesn't just have to resemble

1093
01:03:31,970 --> 01:03:34,880
Speaker 2: a human baby in some kind of, you know, in

1094
01:03:35,340 --> 01:03:38,580
Speaker 2: physical appearance or affect. It can literally look exactly like

1095
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:40,820
Speaker 2: your actual family members or loved ones.

1096
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

1097
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:44,860
Speaker 2: And I, well, you know what? I was going to say,

1098
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:47,240
Speaker 2: I wonder if there is anything like this in nature,

1099
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:49,560
Speaker 2: but there are things like this in nature, especially in

1100
01:03:49,980 --> 01:03:50,820
Speaker 2: the insect world.

1101
01:03:51,050 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1102
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:54,890
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't research this going into the episode,

1103
01:03:54,910 --> 01:03:58,220
Speaker 2: but I know I've read before about... In fact, some lepidopterans,

1104
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:02,930
Speaker 2: I believe. Aren't there butterflies and caterpillars that can mimic

1105
01:04:03,010 --> 01:04:05,430
Speaker 2: the scent of an ant queen and be taken into

1106
01:04:05,470 --> 01:04:08,770
Speaker 2: the ant's hive or colony and be accepted as the queen? Like,

1107
01:04:08,950 --> 01:04:10,270
Speaker 2: I am the one you really care about.

1108
01:04:10,830 --> 01:04:14,350
Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah. And another example is, of course, the famous

1109
01:04:14,450 --> 01:04:18,730
Speaker 1: death's head hawk moth. This is the silence of the

1110
01:04:18,770 --> 01:04:22,490
Speaker 1: lambs moth, for those of you who are unfamiliar. These

1111
01:04:22,550 --> 01:04:25,070
Speaker 1: are famous infiltrators of beehives.

1112
01:04:25,590 --> 01:04:26,130
Speaker 2: Mm, yeah.

1113
01:04:26,790 --> 01:04:29,850
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's all manner of deception that goes on

1114
01:04:29,870 --> 01:04:32,450
Speaker 1: in the moth world. All right, we're going to go

1115
01:04:32,470 --> 01:04:36,150
Speaker 1: ahead and close things up here. But stay tuned. Star

1116
01:04:36,190 --> 01:04:40,810
Speaker 1: Trek Week continues. Tomorrow's Monster Fact episode is, of course,

1117
01:04:40,850 --> 01:04:42,290
Speaker 1: going to be Star Trek themed. We're going to be

1118
01:04:42,330 --> 01:04:45,230
Speaker 1: back on Thursday with another Star Trek themed core episode.

1119
01:04:45,570 --> 01:04:48,190
Speaker 1: And then on Friday on Weird House Cinema. We will

1120
01:04:48,250 --> 01:04:52,010
Speaker 1: discuss a Star Trek motion picture, and based on some

1121
01:04:52,030 --> 01:04:53,790
Speaker 1: of the things we discussed in this episode, you may

1122
01:04:53,870 --> 01:04:56,990
Speaker 1: already be able to guess what that movie is going

1123
01:04:57,010 --> 01:04:57,270
Speaker 1: to be.

1124
01:04:57,750 --> 01:05:01,680
Speaker 2: Huge thanks, as always, to our excellent audio producer, J.J. Posway.

1125
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 2: If you would like to get in touch with us

1126
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:05,900
Speaker 2: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1127
01:05:05,980 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 2: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

1128
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:19,520
Speaker 2: you can email us at contact at stufftoblowyourmind.com. Stuff to

1129
01:05:19,540 --> 01:05:22,300
Speaker 2: Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeartRadio. For more

1130
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:26,130
Speaker 2: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are

1131
01:05:26,150 --> 01:05:27,770
Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.