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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Guilty guilty guilty on all counts. Murdered defendant Richard Allen

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Speaker 2: stonefaced as that Delphi jury hands down a verdict saying

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Speaker 2: he murdered Abby and Libby, leaving their bodies in the woods.

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Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 2: being with us. Guilty guilty on all counts in the

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Speaker 2: Delphi double murder trial. Richard Allen has just been found guilty.

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Speaker 3: Four days of deliberation, guilty on all counts.

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Speaker 4: Finally for Abby and Libby.

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Speaker 2: Justice is, sir, two charges of felony murder in two

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Speaker 2: charges of malice murders. Shouts of jubilation or shouts of

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Speaker 2: extreme relief As a court watcher comes out of the

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Speaker 2: courthouse and before they could get to the bottom of

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Speaker 2: the steps yelled out guilty. The crowd erupted.

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Speaker 1: For those of you just.

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Speaker 2: Joining us, Richard Allen has been found guilty on all

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Speaker 2: four counts in the murders of Abby and Libby.

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Speaker 1: It's over or is it?

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Speaker 2: Allan's wife comes out and clearly states it's not over yet.

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Speaker 2: Joining me an all star panel to make sense of

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Speaker 2: what we know right now, straight out to investigative reporter

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Speaker 2: Susan Hendrix, who's been on the case from the very

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Speaker 2: beginning and is the author of Down the Hill My

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Speaker 2: descended to the double murder in Delphi.

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Speaker 1: What happened in that courtroom when the verdict was read.

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Speaker 3: Judge Frank Gall gave them instructions everyone in the courtroom

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Speaker 3: when the verdict was read, that no one can make

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Speaker 3: any emotion. She says, she knows that both sides worked

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Speaker 3: very hard on this, the prosecution and the defense, and

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Speaker 3: then reading it very quickly, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. Then

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Speaker 3: asked Nick McCollen, the prosecutor, do you want the jury

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Speaker 3: polled here? He said no, Then you go to Baldwin.

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Speaker 3: Baldwin said yes, almost in a defiant manner.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know that's trial lawyering. One oh one. The

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Speaker 2: Phillip Dbay, a high profile lawyer in joining us out

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Speaker 2: of the la jurisdiction. He's the public defender there, which

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Speaker 2: means he tries a lot of cases. Philip Dubay, you

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Speaker 2: have to poll the jury, especially if you don't like

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Speaker 2: the verdict, because you never know.

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Speaker 1: And I've seen it happen.

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Speaker 2: Thank goodness, not in one of my cases, but I've

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Speaker 2: seen it happen where one of the gurrs goes, eho,

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Speaker 2: that's not my verdict, and it's just like the courtroom

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Speaker 2: will erupt in pandemonium.

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Speaker 1: Polling is when each juror is.

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Speaker 2: Asked individually in the courtroom as they're in the box,

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Speaker 2: the jury box, one after the next, is this your like,

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Speaker 2: mister debate jurr number one?

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Speaker 1: Is this your verdict? Was this your verdict? In the

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Speaker 1: jury room? Is it steal your verdict?

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Speaker 2: They're typically asked those three or semblances off those three questions.

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Speaker 2: And I have actually seen in real time a lady

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Speaker 2: juror start crying.

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Speaker 1: Her lips started, and she said, it's not my verdict.

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Speaker 2: So the judge said, okay, back in the jury deliberation room.

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Speaker 2: About an hour later they all came back and it

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Speaker 2: was her verdict by then.

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Speaker 1: And there's nothing wrong with that.

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Speaker 2: You can have a wavering mind or undecided or hung

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Speaker 2: up on some point, but.

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Speaker 1: That's why you pull the jury dubet. Of course it is.

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Speaker 5: And once in a while you do get one or

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Speaker 5: two during that process who have what I call the

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Speaker 5: unreasonable doubt. In other words, they kind of have buyer's remorse.

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Speaker 5: They see everybody in the gallery anxiously awaiting whether or

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Speaker 5: not this is your verdict. And now you're seeing truly

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Speaker 5: the effect of your verdict, and before you deliver it,

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Speaker 5: you need to make darn sure. But sometimes they got

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Speaker 5: to go back into that jury room just to console

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Speaker 5: that person, to remind them, you did not have a

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Speaker 5: reasonable doubt before we voted in the jury room. So

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Speaker 5: which is it, Do you have reasonable doubt or not?

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Speaker 5: And if they don't, they can stand their ground, and

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Speaker 5: you know what, that juror can hang it. And if

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Speaker 5: it's hung, so be it, and then you can give

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Speaker 5: them the Allen charge. In Indiana, by the way, they

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Speaker 5: don't do that dynamite or Alan charge. They abrogated it

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Speaker 5: by judicial fiat several years ago. Instead, they just reread

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Speaker 5: all the jury instructions because the court really has no

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Speaker 5: way of knowing if they're hung duey in transigence or

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Speaker 5: a misunderstanding of the law or some other grounds. So

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Speaker 5: they read everything and they go back so that there's

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Speaker 5: no coercive effect of the judge reading everything to them,

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Speaker 5: specifically that Alan charge. And yes, I have seen it,

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Speaker 5: and I've also seen it in the civil context as well.

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Speaker 1: When Philip D.

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Speaker 2: Bay is describing an Alan charge. When we say a

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Speaker 2: name like that, we're talking about a case. There was

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Speaker 2: an individual named Allen, and in that case, the jury

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Speaker 2: was out for a very long time, and the judge

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Speaker 2: gave them what I call dynamite, and that is the

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Speaker 2: judge brings the jury in.

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Speaker 1: All lawyers are.

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Speaker 2: There, They put it on the record, and the judge says,

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Speaker 2: it's your duty to go deliberate and reach a verdict.

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Speaker 2: Now get back in there. That's what a dynamite charge is.

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Speaker 2: So in this case, he's right. In Indiana, what the

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Speaker 2: judge does is a set of dynamite. They reread the

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Speaker 2: jury charges again, hint, go deliberate.

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Speaker 1: So I think it has the same effect. But long

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Speaker 1: story short, this is what happened. Listen.

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Speaker 6: It took two minutes from the time the jury walks

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Speaker 6: into the courtroom and the verdict is announced. Richard Allen

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Speaker 6: guilty on all charges. Allan was found guilty of the

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Speaker 6: felony murder of Abby Williams and Libby Jermyan, and guilty

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Speaker 6: of knowingly and intentionally killing both girls. Judge Gull kept

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Speaker 6: a firm hand on the courtroom and there were no

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Speaker 6: outbursts inside the court room, but outside on the street,

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Speaker 6: shouts of guilty on all charges rang out in downtown Delphi.

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Speaker 2: Susan Henry's joining US investigative reporter and author of Down

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Speaker 2: the Hill, My Descent into the double murder in Delphi.

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Speaker 2: You're probably one of the few outsiders that weren't born

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Speaker 2: in Delphi that knows where.

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Speaker 1: That mon On High Bridge is. It's really hard to find,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: When I was driving there at the last time, Susan,

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Speaker 2: it was at night.

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Speaker 1: By the time I got.

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Speaker 2: Their dark, I missed the turn to Delphi, had to

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Speaker 2: backtrack much less find that bridge is really in a

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Speaker 2: very heavily wooded area.

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Speaker 1: Tell me this, Susan.

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Speaker 2: Everybody's still under a gag order until sentencing, which is

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Speaker 2: December twenty, we think, But that means nobody can speak publicly.

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Speaker 1: How is The families of the victims.

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Speaker 3: Relieved, absolutely relieved.

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Speaker 1: They didn't know what to think.

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Speaker 3: As the days went on, Kelsey saying, thank goodness, because

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Speaker 3: I've texted her something so and it's a sigh of relief.

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Speaker 3: They know it's not bringing the girls back. But boy,

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Speaker 3: on that fourth day, there were nerves joining me.

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Speaker 2: Now, cold case investigated Research Institute founder and star of

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Speaker 2: Hitting You podcast Zone seven. Cheryl McCollum, who has been

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Speaker 2: on the case from the very beginning, has analyzed forensics,

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Speaker 2: has spent many many days in.

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Speaker 1: Del fi re walking them on on High.

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Speaker 2: Bridge, Cheryl, can you believe it for just a moment

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Speaker 2: some people not naming names, were concerned this was going

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Speaker 2: to be hung.

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Speaker 4: You know as well as I do, Nancy. The rule

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Speaker 4: is for every day they spent, that's an hour of deliberation.

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Speaker 4: This jury did their due diligence, There's no question about it.

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Speaker 4: They even asked once again to see the video that

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Speaker 4: Libby took and the interrogation. It was important to them

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Speaker 4: to get it right on all four counts, and I

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Speaker 4: believe they did.

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Speaker 2: Now, Cheryl mcollum, when you say they wanted to see

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Speaker 2: the video and the interrogation, you know Richard Allen gave

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Speaker 2: over sixty confessions the defense at trialise, Yeah, it was

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Speaker 2: temporarily insane. Y had a psychotic break. Don't listen to

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Speaker 2: any of that. But Cheryl McCollum, when you say the

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Speaker 2: jury wanted to see the video and the interrogation, what

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Speaker 2: video and what interrogation?

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Speaker 1: That could be anything. Cheryl Well, I.

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Speaker 4: Think it was important to them to see the video

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Speaker 4: that Libby took on the bridge, and then to see

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Speaker 4: the video where Richard Allen becomes angry again. For us,

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Speaker 4: that was key to say they're leaning toward the prosecution here.

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Speaker 4: They wanted to see, can this man that we have

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Speaker 4: watched silently in court nodding some, he laughed some. He

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Speaker 4: would make gestures toward his wife like call me. He

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Speaker 4: would stare at all of us, He locked guys with everybody.

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Speaker 4: They wanted to know, let's watch this video again and

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Speaker 4: see do we see some rage? And they did, And

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Speaker 4: it's important Nancy to say, Okay, maybe they're comparing a

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Speaker 4: lot of other things. But as far as the confession,

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Speaker 4: even before he was incarcerated, he confessed to being there,

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Speaker 4: not just on the trails, but on the bridge. He

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Speaker 4: told him what he was wearing and where he was

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Speaker 4: part And then when they went back and went through

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Speaker 4: every confession, they saw where he gave information only the

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Speaker 4: killer would know about the White.

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Speaker 1: Vand Susan Hendrix. Let's follow up what Cheryl just said.

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Speaker 2: What the jury wanted to see at the end, and

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Speaker 2: they had a lot of jury questions. They asked for

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Speaker 2: a lot of things during deliberations, which some people take

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Speaker 2: as a bad sign.

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Speaker 1: I do not take that as a bad sign. They

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Speaker 1: wanted to see a video and an interrogation tape.

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Speaker 2: Specifically, I think it was the girl's video where she

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Speaker 2: somehow managed to get video of quote the bridge guy,

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Speaker 2: and one of the interrogations, which one wasn't Susan.

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Speaker 3: It was on October twenty sixth, twenty twenty two, with

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Speaker 3: Detective Jerry Holman, where he confronts him his home had

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Speaker 3: already been searched. It wasn't the first one on October thirteenth,

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Speaker 3: so it was home is searched. Now he's angry. Holman

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Speaker 3: brings in his wife.

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Speaker 1: They talk.

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Speaker 3: She says, you never told me that you were at

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Speaker 3: the bridge that day, So it's the wife and him,

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Speaker 3: back and forth. Holman did an excellent job. He comes in,

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Speaker 3: it gets confrontational. There's yelling, and Holman says, did you

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Speaker 3: see the girls in those woods? And he's like, arrest

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Speaker 3: me or send me home.

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Speaker 1: He's like gladly and he cuffed him.

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Speaker 3: And I believe they wanted to see that reached just

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Speaker 3: like Cheryl said, because the man in that courtroom is

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Speaker 3: nothing like the guy in that video.

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Speaker 1: The jurors needed to.

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Speaker 2: See crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: You know, Susan Hendricks.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned ten twenty six, twenty two, and that was

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Speaker 2: a very big day for investigators because officers searched his home,

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Speaker 2: I believe ten twenty six, twenty two, and they found,

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Speaker 2: as they called it, a bridge guy starter kit let

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Speaker 2: that sink in because the killer is the bridge guy,

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Speaker 2: all right, he's saying down the hill, and the girls

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Speaker 2: went down the hill and that's where they were murdered.

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Speaker 1: A bridge guy starter kit, a car heart. I'm reading

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Speaker 1: my notes because let me make sure I got it.

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Speaker 2: Right, a car heart and jacket that the bridge guy

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Speaker 2: was wearing, a sig sour pee as in Penny to

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Speaker 2: twenty six, an unspent forty caliber Smith and Weston cartridge

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Speaker 2: that was found in a hope box in Allan's bedroom.

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Speaker 2: They hit the jackpot, and it wasn't just one undetective

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Speaker 2: finding all of this. There were multiple detectives there watching

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Speaker 2: each other. So it's not as if one sneaky detective

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Speaker 2: went in there and planet a car heart, jacket, a

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Speaker 2: six hour p Twenty two, twenty six, and a forty caliber.

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Speaker 2: Well did that did not happen? It was all there,

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Speaker 2: no wonder. Richard Allen was angry.

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Speaker 3: He busted, yeah, and he thought he was going to

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Speaker 3: get away with it because during that interrogation he said,

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Speaker 3: nothing you have is going to connect me to that mean,

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Speaker 3: nothing you have.

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Speaker 1: He was confident.

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Speaker 2: He wo wait by bye bye, wait wait wait, Susan Hendricks,

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Speaker 2: can you say that very slowly one more time?

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Speaker 3: Nothing you have will connect me to those girls?

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Speaker 1: Okay, right there, Bill Daly, he's joining me.

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Speaker 2: Former FBI investigator, now expert in forensic photography, security expert. Bill,

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Speaker 2: you come to me and say I think you committed

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Speaker 2: XYZ murder. I'm not going to say you can't prove

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Speaker 2: it or you don't have enough evidence to convict me.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm going to say, no, I didn't.

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Speaker 2: I dare you, I double dog dare you to try

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Speaker 2: and prove that that did not happen.

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Speaker 1: I don't like him.

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Speaker 2: I mean the hair on the back of my neck

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Speaker 2: goes up when a suspect says, well, you can't prove it.

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Speaker 1: That's why basically what he said.

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Speaker 7: Bial yeah exactly. Certainly, his obstinence to the facts of

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Speaker 7: what they found certainly give your pause, but you don't

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Speaker 7: this more important things here.

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Speaker 8: I think the.

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Speaker 7: Fact is that this case, this case went on as

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Speaker 7: a cold case for close to five years. We talked about.

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Speaker 1: Twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 7: It's key that people remember is that it was only

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Speaker 7: because of going through some old records as you were

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Speaker 7: digitizing records in this case, did one of the analysts,

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Speaker 7: one of the investigators, find this call, this call from

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Speaker 7: Allan himself saying that put himself at the on the

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Speaker 7: bridge that day. And it was really because of that

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Speaker 7: call that this whole thing opened up in Blossom.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, we talked about jail.

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Speaker 2: You're absolutely correct, But I believe it was a volunteer,

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Speaker 2: Bill Daily, a volunteer named Kathy Shank who was going

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Speaker 2: through a lot of records, and she, being a local, realized.

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Speaker 2: I think it says something like Cheryl didn't say a

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Speaker 2: name on Allan Street and she said, there is no

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Speaker 2: Allan Street, and she figured out that that tip was

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Speaker 2: wonkey was reversed right.

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Speaker 4: She saw the name Richard Allen Whiteman and she knew

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Speaker 4: from living there white Man was the name of the street.

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Speaker 4: And then when they cross checked it, Richard Allen lived

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Speaker 4: on white men.

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Speaker 6: The jury of seven women and five men heard seventeen

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Speaker 6: days of testimony that included dozens of witnesses, disturbing jail

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Speaker 6: house videos of Richard Allen, and pictures of Abby and

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Speaker 6: Libby as they were found at the crime scene. The

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Speaker 6: jury deliberated for nineteen hours, spread out over parts of

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Speaker 6: four days, to come up with a unanimous verdict. Richard

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Speaker 6: Allen was found guilty of four counts, two counts of

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Speaker 6: fill any murder and two counts of knowingly and intentionally

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Speaker 6: killing Abby Williams and Libby Jermyan.

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Speaker 2: Guilty on all counts. This case has been so divisive.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure why, but many people still insisting Richard

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Speaker 2: Allen was framed.

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Speaker 1: Well, you can't have it both ways.

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Speaker 2: You can't claim that law enforcement on this case was

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Speaker 2: so haphazard, so terrible, so sloppy. But yet they managed

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Speaker 2: to frame Richard Allen and it's still being kept a secret.

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Speaker 2: You have to pick one of those. They cannot coexist.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't happen. Now here's another person that insists he's innocent.

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Speaker 2: Richard Allen's wife bully stating this is an.

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Speaker 1: Over at all.

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Speaker 2: That's from our friends at wt got to be a question,

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Speaker 2: a burning question. I didn't see it happen in the courtroom,

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Speaker 2: Susan Hendrix or Cheryl McCollum. Did you ever see Richard

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Speaker 2: Allen use his glasses, his reading glasses he had perched

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Speaker 2: on top of his head. Did anybody see him actually

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Speaker 2: use them? One time? One time? In how many weeks?

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Speaker 2: Four weeks? He acted like he was using his glasses.

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Speaker 1: Okay, the defense.

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Speaker 2: Used a lot of smoking mirrors. They said, hey, don't

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Speaker 2: look at that bullet. That bullet proves nothing. Don't listen

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Speaker 2: to these sixty one confessions. He was in the middle

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Speaker 2: of a side cotic break.

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Speaker 1: He's not the bridge guy.

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Speaker 2: I know he places himself at the scene of the

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Speaker 2: crime at.

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Speaker 1: The time the murders were committed.

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Speaker 2: I know he states voluntarily he was wearing the very

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Speaker 2: same outfit as is the bridge guy. I know it

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Speaker 2: looks like him, I know it sounds like him, but

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Speaker 2: it's not him. Ps the Bridge guy didn't commit the murder.

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Speaker 2: Those were the defenses. But to Dr Bethany Marshall renow

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Speaker 2: it psycho and was joining us out of Beverly Hills,

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Speaker 2: author of deal Breaker. At Doctor Bethany marshall dot com.

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Speaker 2: You can see her on Peacock. Now, Doctor Bethany, I

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Speaker 2: have a problem with temporary insanity temporary psychosis when I

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Speaker 2: watch you intermittently for four weeks of trial and you

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Speaker 2: act perfectly sane.

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Speaker 1: As Cheryl McCollum was pointing out, you take notes, you speak.

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Speaker 2: To the lawyers around you, you look over when somebody

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Speaker 2: walks in, You look at me dead in the face

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Speaker 2: before your lawyers block me. You mouth things to your wife,

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Speaker 2: totally and completely coherent in court. How could he have

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Speaker 2: been temporarily insane because he was in solitary, which, Bethany,

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Speaker 2: He had a tablet, It's like an iPad. He had

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Speaker 2: a constant companion outside his door. He was fed routinely,

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Speaker 2: He had many many meetings with his lawyers and his wife,

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Speaker 2: phone calls, FaceTime.

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Speaker 1: Chats, you name it, doctor Bethany. That was his solitary.

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Speaker 2: So how do you go from being perfectly sane in

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Speaker 2: the courtroom, not one blip in four weeks of trial,

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Speaker 2: but yet your claim is temporary psychosis.

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Speaker 1: Well, Nancy, let's think about this.

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Speaker 9: Earlier in the show, you talked about the evidence found

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Speaker 9: in his house that he had to gun in one place,

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Speaker 9: the jacket the other. He was preparing a bridge guide kit,

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Speaker 9: but it was in essence a killer kit, and yet

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Speaker 9: he had the good sense to dismantle it and put

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Speaker 9: it in various parts of the house and then to

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Speaker 9: brag that they would never tie him to the killing.

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Speaker 9: That's somebody who is a very coherent.

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Speaker 1: Consistent, cunning and calculated. The psychologist at the jail said.

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Speaker 9: That he did not have flight of ideas. That means

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Speaker 9: ideas that are not related to each other, and he

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Speaker 9: did not have loose associations. So and look at his

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Speaker 9: affect in court. People who are psychotic usually have a

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Speaker 9: strange affect, meaning a strange facial appearance, appearance. We do

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Speaker 9: not see that, as you pointed out.

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Speaker 1: At all in court.

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Speaker 2: You know, one thing that was argued, or that was

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Speaker 2: stated by the shrinks is that he was co dependent

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Speaker 2: on his wife.

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Speaker 1: That's not a mental illness.

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Speaker 9: It's not a mental illness. But it's interesting that when

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Speaker 9: Kathy walks out of the court, she says it is

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Speaker 9: not over. She's going to go down fighting for him.

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Speaker 9: My impression is this is a mother child relationship and

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Speaker 9: she does not care about those two little girls who

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Speaker 9: were murdered, so she's going to get her baby out

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Speaker 9: of jail, come hell or high water. So yes, he

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Speaker 9: was very dependent on her, and the clinical psychologist diagnosed

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Speaker 9: him with something called passive dependent personality disorder that means

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Speaker 9: you have an overly dependent posture on others in order

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Speaker 9: to avoid taking responsibility for your own life.

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Speaker 2: Susan Hendrix, a investigative reporter on the case from the

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Speaker 2: very beginning. Is it true that Richard had over seven

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Speaker 2: hundred phone calls from behind mars.

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Speaker 3: He did Nancy. What stood out to me was never

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Speaker 3: mentioning his daughter she was on the stand. The mom

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Speaker 3: Kathy wasn't there the only day when her daughter was

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Speaker 3: on the stand. I don't think that's a relationship that

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Speaker 3: is steady. I don't think the daughter is in Richard

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Speaker 3: Allen's life or Kathy's and seeing her on the stand

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Speaker 3: she answered three questions for the defense. But I found

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Speaker 3: it interesting that it feels like that relationship is broken. Ever,

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Speaker 3: doess he mentioned does my daughter still love me? Just

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Speaker 3: his wife and mother in those phone calls.

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollums seven hundred plus phone calls.

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Speaker 2: Visits from lawyers, visits from your wife, A constant companion

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Speaker 2: outside your door. That doesn't sound much like solitary confinement

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Speaker 2: to me.

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Speaker 4: Not solitary. He was never alone. He had access to lawyers, psychologists,

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Speaker 4: other inmates, guards, phone calls with his wife and mom

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Speaker 4: and Nancy. I want to point out something about one confession,

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Speaker 4: when he tells law enforcement in chronological order what he

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Speaker 4: did that day, that proves to me, without a doubt,

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Speaker 4: he was not suffering in any way with some type

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Speaker 4: of psychosis. He was able to maintain what he did

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Speaker 4: from start to finish, and somebody that is delusional or

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Speaker 4: having other issues cannot do that. Libby should be twenty one.

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Speaker 4: You know, the two of them, the two of them joking,

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Speaker 4: talking about movies, talking about boys, talking about what they

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Speaker 4: would name their own babs, their girls matter.

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Speaker 2: For me, it all boils down to forensics joining me.

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Speaker 2: Renowned professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath

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Speaker 2: My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit series Body

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Speaker 2: Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan, and for my Purposes, a

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Speaker 2: death investigator who has processed well over one thousand death scenes, suicides, accidents, homicide,

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Speaker 2: natural causes. Actually, I think the number is much bigger

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Speaker 2: than that Joe Scott, what is the number.

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Speaker 8: I have no way of measuring that, Nancy Hishey, it

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Speaker 8: was a long career. I'm glad I'm here with you now.

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Speaker 2: Though, So, Joe Scott, what it boils down to me

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Speaker 2: is hard evidence, hard evidence, and what I find very

401
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Speaker 2: very probative is that the hard evidence disproved the theory

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Speaker 2: that these two girls were killed elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: Their bodies brought back here.

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Speaker 2: The claims of odinism, that the real killers worshiped.

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Speaker 1: The North North gods and this.

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Speaker 2: Had been basically a cult killing with many people there

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Speaker 2: if it was ritualistic.

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Speaker 1: But the evidence proves otherwise.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, it does, and particularly Nancy, this is a bleeding

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Speaker 8: if you will. You know the doctor, doctor cor I

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Speaker 8: think is the correct pronunciation of his name. He actually

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Speaker 8: postulated that it took Libby up to five to ten

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Speaker 8: minutes to die. That blood was concentrated in that particular

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Speaker 8: area around about that area, So it's not like they

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Speaker 8: were killed somewhere else. You had blood droplets that were

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Speaker 8: leading from some obscure location to that particular location. They

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Speaker 8: were killed in that specific vicinity. You have this kind

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Speaker 8: of saturated area that's there, Nancy, and this was I

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Speaker 8: think a lot of people are kind of maybe they're

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Speaker 8: taking comfort in it that this was quick. It was not.

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Speaker 8: This was a lingering death. These girls would have had

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Speaker 8: an awareness as they slipped off into unconsciousness. The biggest

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Speaker 8: thing that's missing here, I think, is when we think

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Speaker 8: about the type of weapon that was used. You know,

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Speaker 8: the forensic pathologist had kind of what they describe as

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Speaker 8: evolving thoughts about this, and it led him to the

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Speaker 8: conclusion in his workshop of all places, Nancy, that what

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Speaker 8: they were dealing with was not a serrated weapon as

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Speaker 8: had been put forward, or another blade, but it actually

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Speaker 8: turned out to be a box cutter. And you know, Nancy,

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Speaker 8: I thought a lot about this. I thought about all

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Speaker 8: those nights when he's working as an assistant store manager

433
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Speaker 8: or whatever the hell he did for the drug store.

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Speaker 8: He's having to stock those shelves in that store while

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Speaker 8: nobody else is there. He had a lot of practice

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Speaker 8: with a box cutter, slicing those boxes open, taking out

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Speaker 8: each item, putting them on the shelf, then going on

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Speaker 8: to the next to the next box he would cut open.

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Speaker 8: He would have specific well, first off, he'd have access

440
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 8: to that type of weapon, and secondly, he'd have proficiency

441
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 8: with it, Nancy, guys.

442
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 1: The trial went on for seventeen days. Listen.

443
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 10: The trial had seventeen days of testimony, with the prosecution

444
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 10: presenting forty two witnesses as evidence and Richard Allen's defense

445
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 10: team calling twenty two witnesses. Richard Allen did not testify,

446
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 10: neither did his wife Kathy. The jury deliberated for nineteen

447
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 10: hours over parts of four days before reaching their unanimous

448
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 10: verdict four.

449
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 1: Weeks of trial.

450
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 2: So to you, Cheryl McCollum, neither Richard Allen, which, of course,

451
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,640
Speaker 2: under the Fifth Amendment, don't tune up, Phillip D. Bay.

452
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 2: Under the Fifth Amendment right to remain silent, defendant doesn't

453
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 2: have to take the stand, but the jury can certainly speculate, Wow,

454
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 2: if he's telling the truth, why not take the stand

455
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 2: and tell us what happened? And interestingly, his wife never

456
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 2: took the stand. It's all well and good.

457
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 1: For her to come out on the courthouse steps and go.

458
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 2: It's not over yet, But why did she take the

459
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 2: stand to state what happened that day, to answer questions

460
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 2: and submit herself to cross examination?

461
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 4: Cheryl, she knew she could, She knew if she was

462
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 4: on the stand under oath that that jury would know.

463
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 4: There's no way you didn't recognize him. There's no way

464
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 4: you didn't know that wall, that gate, that manner of dress.

465
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 1: You knew that boy.

466
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 4: We can recognize people from high school from a distance.

467
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 4: There's no way you didn't know him. And to prove it,

468
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 4: when you found out he wasn't just on the trail

469
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 4: but was on the bridge, the first thing you said

470
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 4: to him is you never told me you were on

471
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,919
Speaker 4: the bridge. She had to have that feeling in her

472
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 4: good that he did this.

473
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: Philip D.

474
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 2: Bay, if the wife had taken the stand and you

475
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 2: were on the state's side, how would you have cross

476
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 2: examined her.

477
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,479
Speaker 5: The first thing I would have gone into is all

478
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 5: the recorded jail calls. Isn't it a fact, ma'am that

479
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 5: you had multiple conversations with your husband while he was

480
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 5: behind bars. Yes, in fact, I'd like to play what

481
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 5: has been previously marked as states one in evidence. Do

482
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 5: you remember this conversation where he's telling you that he

483
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,360
Speaker 5: did it and he'd like to apologize to the children's families.

484
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,479
Speaker 5: Do you remember that conversation, ma'am? You didn't say anything

485
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 5: at the time, like that's not true. You're lying. Don't

486
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 5: make this stuff up. Instead, you kind of went along,

487
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 5: didn't you. It would have backfired on the defense, and

488
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 5: it would have been devastating.

489
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: And also, Philip Dubay, she could have been cross examined

490
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 2: on no prior mental history, no prior psychotic breaks. As

491
00:27:54,840 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 2: Cheryl said, what happened on the Valentine's Day day immediately following.

492
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 2: Remember the date of the offense was Feb thirteen, Feb fourteen,

493
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 2: the bodies were found. On cross exam, she would have

494
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: been questioned about saying you never told me you were

495
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 2: on the bridge, About where that gun is kept, why

496
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 2: that bullet was kept in a different location, About any

497
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,959
Speaker 2: potential box cutters that she saw in the home, about

498
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 2: the outfit he wore that day, any number of things.

499
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: So, Philip Dubay on the converse.

500
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 2: If you put her on the stand, which they chose,

501
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,479
Speaker 2: the defense chose not to do, which I think was wise.

502
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 2: What could she have offered that would have helped the

503
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 2: defense that would have outweighed the danger on cross exam during.

504
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 5: The course in scope of your marriage, Miss Allen, did

505
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 5: you ever know your husband to be on antipsychotics? Did

506
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 5: you ever have to take him to a shrink and

507
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 5: get him on heldall and did a doctor, in fact,

508
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 5: ever talk him out of taking these types of drugs

509
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 5: and absent those types of drugs. Did you ever see

510
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 5: him go through these types of fits of peak, to

511
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 5: this type of delirium, to this type of delusional system

512
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 5: if you never saw that before and you're seeing it now,

513
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 5: would you attribute it then to the hell doll that

514
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 5: was given to him involuntarily while behind bars?

515
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 10: Nothing further major past. Cicero says there was a voluminous

516
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 10: amount of blood at the crime scene, but most of

517
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 10: it came from Libby German.

518
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 6: Cicero says Libby was moving and basically walking in blood.

519
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 10: Abby Williams died in the same spot where she was attacked.

520
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 11: And she may have been restrained or unconscious when her

521
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 11: throat was slashed. Rich Allen left the courthouse in handcuffs,

522
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 11: and the safekeeping order that it required Alan to be

523
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 11: housed at the Wabash Valley Correctional Facility has not been lifted.

524
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 11: Allan will probably remain there until he is sentenced nine

525
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 11: December twentieth at nine am. The judge has kept the

526
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 11: gag order in effect for all parties involved in the

527
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 11: case until after Allan is sentenced.

528
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: The law enforcement that so dog of worked this case

529
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 2: has been under fire from day one. The amount of

530
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: evidence that they produced, finding that bullet and a blanket

531
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: of leaves covered in branches, sticks and twigs is amazing,

532
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 2: but they found it. No one ever comments on the

533
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 2: great work they did, but listen, we are going to.

534
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 12: Continue a very methodical and committed approach to ensure that

535
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 12: if any other person had any involvement in these murders

536
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 12: in any way, that personal persons will be held accountable.

537
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 12: Since the murders of Abbey and Libby two eighty six

538
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 12: days ago, the Daily Investigative Teams red tirelessly.

539
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: Crime Stories With Nancy Grace, we are going to.

540
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 12: Continue very methodical and committed approach to ensure that if

541
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 12: any other person had any involvement in these murders in

542
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 12: any way, that personal or persons will be held accountable.

543
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 12: Since the murders of Abbey and Libby two and eighty

544
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 12: six days ago, the Daily Investigative Team is red tirelessly.

545
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum. He was literally counting the days. That was

546
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 2: Superintendent Doug Carter from Indiana State Police. At that time

547
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 2: it was two thousand and eighty six days had passed.

548
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 2: They never gave up, but they are assailed from every side.

549
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: I don't get it.

550
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 4: I don't get it either. And when you start talking

551
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 4: about law enforcement and they're saying things like they're incompetent

552
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 4: and unprofessional, and there's jury canther in, they're uneducated, they're corrupt.

553
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 4: But then twelve String came together and unanimously said none

554
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 4: of that was true. They understood, they understood the confessions,

555
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 4: they understood what was found at the crime scene, they

556
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:18,719
Speaker 4: understood the unsent cartridge. They got it. And overwhelmingly, I

557
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 4: believe that's what people should take away, that you can

558
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 4: be as the negative as you won't hide behind a keyboard.

559
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 4: So when it came down to it, they believed law enforcement.

560
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: And also I can say the same thing for the

561
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: Carroll County prosecutors.

562
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: Listen, there are many dates.

563
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 13: In a lifetime that you're going to remember.

564
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 14: Date your children are born, the date you're married, the

565
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 14: date you buy a first house. The data Abbey and

566
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 14: Livy went missing. One of those dates was last Friday,

567
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 14: October twenty eight, twenty two. At that time, we had

568
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 14: gathered evidence to formulate a PC that was submitted to

569
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 14: the court and the judge did find probable cause for

570
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 14: arrest of Richard Allen. He's been charge of two council

571
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 14: murder for the murder of Abia Williams and Liberty German.

572
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: They like law enforcement, never gave up on seeking the

573
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 2: truth to Susan Hendrix joining US, investigative reporter and author

574
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 2: on the Delphi murders joining us. So Richard Allen leaves

575
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 2: the courthouse in handcuffs. When the verdict was announced, he

576
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:24,239
Speaker 2: was stony faced, showed no emotion whatsoever, and he is

577
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 2: headed to the Walbash County the Walbash Valley CI Correctional Institute.

578
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 2: Tell me about what happens next. The gag order is

579
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 2: in place at least until December twenty.

580
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 3: Exactly, and the sentencing hearing Judge gall said it could

581
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 3: be one day, but she'll let it go too if

582
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 3: needed to have different witnesses on the standard. I'm wondering

583
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 3: is that when we will hear from Kathy and he

584
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 3: will be sentenced on that day. But of course there

585
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 3: were so many questions. Is the gag order lifted it

586
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 3: was announced No, you know, I'm.

587
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 2: Very curious, Susan Hendricks nothing compared to law enforcement. But

588
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 2: Cheryl and I have been subjected to so much hate

589
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 2: venom vile. I don't understand where all the hatred is

590
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 2: coming from. I hope that has not been directed at

591
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 2: you as well.

592
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: I'm sure that it has.

593
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 3: I try not to read the comments, but it comes

594
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 3: at me. Like you said, I think Superintendent Doug Carter

595
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 3: is such a class act.

596
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: You're right, they got criticized.

597
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 9: We do.

598
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 3: I think the defense attorneys added fuel to the fire

599
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 3: with that memorandum that came out in September where they

600
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 3: mentioned the odness. But again, it was for full circle

601
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 3: moment for me with Doug Carter. He hugged, embraced the prosecutor,

602
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 3: Nick McCleland after the fact, and I.

603
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: Felt full circle.

604
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 3: They were both underestimated and criticized.

605
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: You know, Philip D.

606
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 2: Bay. Right now, the defense is filing a motion for

607
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 2: new trial. That's the first step where you go back

608
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 2: to the same trial judge that tried the cases and

609
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 2: you write the defense rights, Well, the judge did.

610
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: This wrong and that wrong, and this wrong and that wrong.

611
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 2: What judge in the right mind is going to say, Yeah,

612
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 2: I really screwed up after this one.

613
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: But good, Yeah you get a new trial.

614
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 2: Okay, that's not happening, but that is the first step

615
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 2: in the appellate procedure.

616
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: After that it goes on to appeal.

617
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 2: And I can tell you right now, one of the

618
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 2: things the defense is going to argue is that the

619
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 2: third party guilty.

620
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 1: I call it sod some other dude did it.

621
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 2: You know what, I think the judge did them a

622
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:25,479
Speaker 2: really big favor by not allowing them to argue that

623
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:32,479
Speaker 2: thor worshipers, the Odists, the Pagans did it. They would

624
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 2: have been laughed right out of that courthouse. She didn't

625
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 2: have a huge favor. Yet they're going to appeal that

626
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 2: she followed the law.

627
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 5: As much as I sympathize with counsel and being deprived

628
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 5: of a defense under Indiana law, it's not enough that

629
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 5: there was some cult, some organization out there, some organized

630
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 5: religion that had the means, the motive, an opportunity to

631
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 5: commit the crime absent pinpointing with some type of surgical precision.

632
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 5: Who in the galaxy else could have done this as

633
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 5: opposed to some group in a vacuum. In the abstract,

634
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 5: the court was correct in not allowing that defense because

635
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 5: the work just a.

636
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 2: Minute, Philip Dubay, there have been plenty of UFO sidings.

637
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: I could very easily use that. Okay, you've read the

638
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 1: increminent in Rianna. I could get out and I can say, hey,

639
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 1: little green men from ours did it. That's right up

640
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: there with Odinus. The judge did them a huge favor.

641
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: Can't they see that?

642
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 5: Well, I don't know about that, if we're honest. One

643
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 5: of the reasons why the judge excluded it is because

644
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 5: the court did not want the jury to find what

645
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 5: we call an unreasonable doubt. The crux of third party

646
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 5: culprit is to identify the true culprit, not some green

647
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 5: humanoid that's somewhere in the galaxy or a slender man.

648
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 5: You know, there has to be some true, actual living

649
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 5: human being in that area that you could point the

650
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 5: blame to, as opposed to just some group, some organized religions,

651
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 5: some cult that performs human sacrifices in the abstract. So

652
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 5: I think the court was accurate. No higher court will

653
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 5: reverse that ruling.

654
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 11: During ninety minutes of testimony and showing photos, Sergeant Page

655
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 11: testified about the area where the bodies were found. A

656
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 11: large area of leaves and rough ground still saturated with

657
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 11: blood the day after the girls were found, as well

658
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 11: as dry blood on a nearby tree trunk.

659
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 10: In the court room, as the photos were being described,

660
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 10: noises are heard throughout the court room, sniffles, gas, family

661
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 10: members embracing jurors, squirming in their seats and uncomfortable.

662
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 12: I believe in a God of justice and righteousness.

663
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 13: Today I believe that same God has provided us with

664
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:47,240
Speaker 13: justice for aving and living.

665
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: I earnestly thanked those who prayed for this moment in time.

666
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 13: We now moved forward through the Indiana criminal justice system,

667
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 13: allowing the system to provide its due diligence and process

668
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 13: in providing that justice which is owed Abby and Libby

669
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 13: their families in this community.

670
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 2: You are hearing then, Sheriff Toby Lizzenbee speaking out. You

671
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: know the other day in court, Abby and Libby's family

672
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 2: gave me this. Okay, it says forever in our hearts.

673
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 2: Okay to doctor Bethany Marshall, can you believe we finally

674
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,800
Speaker 2: got a verdict, a guilty verdict?

675
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: Nancy?

676
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 9: It is so difficult to believe. Over seven years later,

677
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 9: and do you know what's happened while all this time

678
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 9: has passed living, Affey's classmates have reached milestone's, gone to proms,

679
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 9: graduated from school, and these two little girls were deprived

680
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 9: of that.

681
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: All of that Bill Day former FB.

682
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 2: What is it like to devote your heart and soul

683
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: to a case and finally see it culminate in a

684
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 2: guilty verdict?

685
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 15: Yeah, it certainly.

686
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 7: It brings a full circle.

687
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 15: It brings relief to those people who were criticized, as

688
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 15: we mentioned before, I think it also does a great

689
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 15: support to law enforcement to say that over these many years,

690
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 15: as they've maintained their noses steadfast focus on this, but

691
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 15: they also maintain focus on change, custody, and evidence, and

692
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,280
Speaker 15: none of that seemed to be called into focused focus here.

693
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 15: Maybe on appeal, But from my view, they did a

694
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 15: tremendous job, and the tremendous job to the memories of

695
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 15: these two innocent angels.

696
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 2: I agree, Susan Hendrix. What do you think we finally

697
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 2: got a verdict?

698
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 3: I'm thrilled for the families, I'm absolutely thrilled, and for

699
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 3: law enforcement as well.

700
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: They work diligently, and they work together.

701
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 3: They care about this family. They cared about Abby and

702
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 3: Libby and I'm so happy that we got the resolution

703
00:39:58,080 --> 00:39:58,439
Speaker 3: we did.

704
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 2: To Cheryl McCollum, can you believe it? Or finally here

705
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 2: we have been reporting this, investigating on this for so

706
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:09,439
Speaker 2: long it doesn't even seem real.

707
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 4: Nancy. I appreciate you sending me to Delphi, letting me

708
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 4: get to know Libby's family, especially her sister Kelsey. And

709
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,839
Speaker 4: I'm going to tell you when I knew you were

710
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 4: sick to be boots on the ground and you were

711
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 4: going to walk into that courtroom, here's all I know.

712
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 4: It's not the amount of time that was spent, it's

713
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 4: that time was spent. And I appreciate you, Nancy.

714
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 2: Like wise, Cheryl likewise, Cheryl, you know I've been wearing

715
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 2: this ever since the family gave it to me, forever

716
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 2: in our hearts. I wish we could go back in

717
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,760
Speaker 2: time and change everything and that the girls were still alive.

718
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 2: You know, nobody really leaves the courtroom and celebrates nobody's

719
00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:00,479
Speaker 2: un quirking champagne. Everybody leaves with a broken heart. Yes,

720
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 2: they get justice of sorts, and it would be so

721
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,879
Speaker 2: much worse if they did not get justice. There will

722
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 2: be a whole in these families hearts forever until they

723
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 2: go to their graves and they are joined with Abby

724
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 2: and Libby in heaven. Now, at the end of every program,

725
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:30,280
Speaker 2: we remember an American hero. These are our heroes today.

726
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 2: Abby and Libby just fourteen and thirteen.

727
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: They solved this.

728
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 16: Murder their own murders, and their memory will be with

729
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 16: us forever. I wish it was them, but their memory

730
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:56,240
Speaker 16: will be with us forever. Our two heroes, Liberty German

731
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 16: and Abby Williams. Thank you to our guests for being

732
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 16: with us, but especially to you for being with us

733
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 16: throughout this long saga. Finally, justice for Abby and Libby.

734
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: Good Night friend,