1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:05,039 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 2: For one hundred plus years, nobody had thought about this 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 2: case at all, but at the time it was probably 4 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 2: the most sensational murder case that had ever happened in 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 2: the city. People were, as you can imagine, mesmerized by 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 2: the details of all of this and then to have 7 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 2: it not resolve itself. 8 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 10 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,279 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked On Exactly Right. I've 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 12 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 13 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 14 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 15 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 16 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: never been published. Wicked Words is about the choices that 17 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: writers make, good and bad. It's a deep dive into 18 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:09,639 Speaker 1: the stories behind the stories. Mike Vance is an author 19 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: in Houston, Texas, and he's written a book called Murder 20 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,759 Speaker 1: and Mayhem and Houston. It's a compilation of true crime 21 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: stories in one of the states most historically fascinating cities. 22 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: And Mike tells me about a case from nineteen ten, 23 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: the brutal murder of an entire family that has many 24 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: unexpected twists. 25 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 2: Well, this is Houston in nineteen ten, and Houston in 26 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 2: nineteen ten was always a very southern city. Texans nowadays 27 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 2: like to talk about how they're not Southern and not Western, 28 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: that there's some sort of hybrid. That may be true 29 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 2: for parts of the state. It's not true for Houston. 30 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 2: Southeast Texas has always been part of the South, and 31 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 2: that was especially true in nineteen ten. The city, like 32 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 2: you would expect, was pretty rigidly segregated. That was also 33 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 2: true of the area where this crime took place, which 34 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 2: was technical a different town at the time. It was 35 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 2: Houston Heights, which now, of course is Interloop Houston, but 36 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 2: at the time it was a separate city. The Heights 37 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 2: was founded in early eighteen nineties by a group of 38 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 2: land developers from Nebraska who came down here and started 39 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 2: this planned community. It was very cutting edge at the time. 40 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 2: People now think of The Heights as an upscale part 41 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 2: of Houston, and it is, of course. The houses are 42 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 2: you can't touch one for under half a million bucks. 43 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 2: But in those days, there was an upscale part of 44 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: the Heights. Along Heights Boulevard. There were two industrial areas, 45 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 2: one at the northwest part of the Heights and one 46 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 2: at the southeast part of the Heights, which bordered on 47 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: the city of Houston, and not surprisingly, they had worker 48 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 2: housing to support those industrial areas. Houston Heights was a 49 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 2: segregated town, so there were white living areas and black 50 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 2: living areas, and this crime takes place in the white 51 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 2: worker housing area. The house was at seven point thirty 52 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 2: two Ashland, which was fifty feet from the Katie Railroad line. 53 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 2: Fifty feet fifty feet. 54 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: A train would go by your house. 55 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 2: Not desirable housing is what I'm saying. Described as a 56 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:17,399 Speaker 2: shack in the paper most of the time, and unpainted. 57 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: It was a rental. The people that lived there did 58 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 2: not own the property. But yes, it was certainly not 59 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 2: the upscale Houston Heights that people think of today. The 60 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 2: story broke on the sixteenth of March nineteen ten, and 61 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 2: to me, one of the most fascinating things about this 62 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 2: is what broke the day before. There was a guy 63 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 2: named Joseph Cullenan who was the founder of what became Texaco, 64 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 2: and at the time it was the Texas Company. He 65 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 2: was one of the most important rich guys in town, 66 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: and the newspaper the day before had headlines he had 67 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: been shot on a downtown street during lunch and a 68 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: disgruntled employee, guy named H. W. Glass, came walking across 69 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 2: the street. They had a very very brief argument. Glass 70 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: pistol and shot Cullanan, who then ducked behind a tiny 71 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 2: tree that was probably the size of your wrist trying 72 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: to get away from Glass. They disarmed him. Cullanan went 73 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 2: across the street and plopped down on a chair at some 74 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: office and called for his car to take him home 75 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 2: rather than go to the hospital. Oh wow, you would 76 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 2: think this is one of the biggest stories of the year. 77 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 2: The very next day it's knocked off the papers entirely 78 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 2: by this multiple homicide that happened in Houston Heights. 79 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 1: Well that's amazing, and so wait, tell me, Ultimately, what 80 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: happened with Cullinan is his name. 81 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 2: Ultimately not much happened with Culinan. He recovered at home, 82 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 2: He was not seriously wounded. He went on to become, 83 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 2: quite honestly one of my favorite guys in Houston history. 84 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: In that time of rigid segregation, he became an advocate 85 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 2: for African American I won't necessarily say equality, but he 86 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 2: is the guy that financed the Houston Negro Hospital in 87 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 2: the late nineteen twenties and rebelled against some of the 88 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 2: social norms of the time, to the point that once 89 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 2: a year he flew the Pirate flag over his Texas 90 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 2: company building. So I like Cullenan. Interestingly, his official biography 91 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 2: does not mention the fact that he got shot on 92 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 2: a downtown street, so that was nicely purged from the story. 93 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, the next day, how do you even 94 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: start this story? 95 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 2: Well, the bodies were discovered almost a week after they 96 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 2: were probably killed. Oh no, the grizzly details are splashed 97 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 2: all over the front pages of the paper. It took 98 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 2: the city by storm. They were already a little on 99 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 2: edge over the fact that one of their leading citizens 100 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 2: gets shot on a downtown street and then five bodies 101 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,679 Speaker 2: are discovered. Wow, it's a young family and their border 102 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 2: and it's the Schultz family, Gus and Alice Schultz. Gus 103 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 2: is twenty three at the time, Alice twenty one. They 104 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 2: have a daughter, Bessie, who was three, and a child 105 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 2: that was five months old that I had a hard 106 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 2: time finding much about. Most of the newspaper accounts seemed 107 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: to indicate it was a female infant, but I've seen 108 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: later sources ascribe that to being a male. There was 109 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: no death certificate issued for that infant, so we couldn't 110 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: pin it down. Their border is a guy named Walter Eikman. 111 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 2: Aikman was twenty seven years old, divorced and had been 112 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 2: living there. So there are five people living in this 113 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: little three room shack. The front part is a parlor, 114 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 2: the middle part is a bedroom with two beds, and 115 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 2: the back part is the kitchen. Normally Aikman slept on 116 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,239 Speaker 2: a pallette in the kitchen. On Friday night, March tenth, 117 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 2: nineteen ten, they had a party. They had drinks, people 118 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 2: brought guitars. The Schultzes had in this weather down at 119 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 2: the Heels house. They had a piano wow and yeah, 120 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 2: and so Alice in particular wanted this piano. And they 121 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 2: sat around playing music and laughing, and about thirty eleven 122 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: o'clock party broke up and Gus went down to a 123 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 2: grocery store saloon combination place nearby and had a few 124 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 2: beers with his friends, went back home, and that's the 125 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 2: last anybody ever saw of them alive. 126 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: Tell me who they are, just as people. This is 127 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: a white working class family, right. 128 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 2: Yes, Gus was the only one that worked. Alice seemed 129 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 2: to spend most of the time at home. Gus worked 130 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: for Houston Lighting and Power, which is the forerunner of 131 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 2: Center Point NRG, all of those companies that broke away, 132 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 2: and he worked there and had a good job. The 133 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 2: neighbors later would talk about that they were a happy couple, 134 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 2: but very very shortly thereafter, all kinds of stories to 135 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 2: the contrary started to pop out, and the behavior of 136 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 2: the parents of both Gus and Alice also indicated that 137 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 2: they were anything but a happy couple. Friday, the party 138 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: was over, Gus go's back home. Nobody hears from them 139 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: on Saturday. On Sunday, guys that was at the party, 140 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 2: a guy named Sandy Sheffield happened to come walking by. 141 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: Now he lived about nine blocks away in the Heights, 142 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 2: nine blocks to the north and a few blocks to 143 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 2: the east. He comes walking by, happened to talk to 144 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 2: the neighbor. His story later was that one of the 145 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 2: cows was out of the fenced enclosure, and the neighbor 146 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 2: asks pointed out, you know, we haven't seen the Schultzes 147 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 2: for two days. Sheffield makes a joke. Maybe they all 148 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: went fishing and the whole family drowned. That's Sunday. On Wednesday, 149 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 2: a woman named Maggie Nelson, who was an African American 150 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 2: woman that lived nearby in the segregated black area of town. 151 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 2: She was their laundress and that was her job to 152 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 2: do laundry a lot of the different families in the area. 153 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: And she came by and noticed all the clothes that 154 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 2: she had put up there on Friday during the day 155 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: or still hanging there. 156 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: Oh wow. 157 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 2: She also sees three guns that are halfway under the house. 158 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 2: It's a peer and beam house, so it's raised up. 159 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 2: She sees the three guns. She talks to the neighbor, 160 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 2: who in turn calls the county sheriff. Being Houston Heights, 161 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: this is not City of Houston. It would be Harris 162 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 2: County Sheriff's. So Andy Anderson or Archie Anderson, I'm sorry, 163 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 2: who was the sheriff brings a deputy out. The house 164 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 2: is locked up tight. There's a front door and a 165 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 2: back door, they're both locked. They jimmy open a window 166 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 2: on the side, and this overpowering stench hits them in 167 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 2: the face. Anderson told the papers later that he had 168 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 2: to wait several hours before they could even physically go 169 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: inside the house. The smell was that overpowering. When they did, 170 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 2: they find five bodies piled on top of each other 171 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 2: in the center room, which is the. 172 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: Bedroom, piled on top of each other. 173 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 2: Gus is on the bottom, then Alice is on top 174 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: of Gus holding the infant into her arms, Bessie, the 175 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 2: three year old, on top of her mom, and then 176 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 2: Walter Aikman is on top of all of them. Iikman 177 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 2: had a piece of mosquito netting kind of wrapped around 178 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 2: his head. He had been sick at the party, pretty 179 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 2: much stayed back in the kitchen while everybody was having 180 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 2: a party in the parlor, so he never really emerged. 181 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 2: And the thought is that rather than sleep on his palate, 182 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 2: he was sleeping in the kid's bed on the night 183 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 2: that the murder took place. Later on, details were released 184 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 2: that they were not all killed in the bedroom. There 185 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 2: was major pools of blood elsewhere in the house. Some 186 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 2: of them were killed later and then moved into this 187 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 2: pile of bodies. The guns didn't figure into the murders 188 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 2: at all. They were beaten to death. Initially, sheriff thought 189 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 2: that there were two weapons, one sharp and one blunt. 190 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 2: They couldn't find a weapon. For quite some time, the 191 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 2: sheriffs and others searched the house, searched the outbuildings, which 192 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 2: was a garden shed and an outhouse, searched the grounds, 193 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: walked up and down the railroad tracks. The first thing 194 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 2: that the sheriff had to say was that it was 195 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 2: some fiend, a murderous fiend satisfying his bloodlust, who had 196 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 2: come through on the railroad. 197 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: Makes sense, I mean, it's right there. You could just 198 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: hop off and hop on where there saw of sexual 199 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: assault on the women? No are the women? 200 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 2: No? There were not. Very shortly though, within a matter 201 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,839 Speaker 2: of forty eight hours or less, they settled on Sandy Sheffield. 202 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 2: Detail started to come out that Sandy had had an 203 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 2: ongoing torrid affair with Alice Oh No. The stories would 204 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 2: come out with every edition of the paper. The reporters 205 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 2: had found something new. Both the Post and the Chronicle, 206 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 2: as you can imagine, filled up for several days the 207 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 2: front pages with details. The music store a place called 208 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 2: Goggin's Music. There was one in Galveston and one in Houston. 209 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 2: That's where the piano came from. And interestingly, the Schultz 210 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,319 Speaker 2: has put the down payment on the piano, but then 211 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 2: Sandy Sheffield had made the monthly payments ever since then. 212 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: Huh. 213 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: There was a jewelry store that Alice had gone into 214 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: and had a conversation with the clerk and said that 215 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 2: there was only one man that she loved. It was 216 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 2: not the one that she was married to, and it 217 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 2: would be the only one that she ever loved. The 218 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 2: biggest detail that came out was where they had lived before, 219 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 2: was in a rooming house or apartment house, and the 220 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 2: landlady kicked him out because when Gus would leave for work, 221 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,719 Speaker 2: Sandy Sheffield would come over and spend the day, and 222 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 2: the landlady said, that's not the kind of establishment I'm running, 223 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: and she kicked him out and that's how they ended 224 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 2: up in this little rented house in the heights. 225 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: So this is real. This is not some media fabricated affair. 226 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: This sounds like this really happened. There are people who 227 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:32,599 Speaker 1: are verifying this. 228 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 2: There are people verifying it. Now, how much can you 229 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 2: tell what is being sensationalized to sell papers, especially in 230 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 2: that day. 231 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: That's William Hurst and yellow journalism at its finest right there. 232 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 2: Absolutely so, it's one hundred and ten years looking backwards, 233 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 2: it's tough to tell. There's no question in my mind 234 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 2: that there was a real affair going on. Where it 235 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 2: gets interesting and where the motive really arts to emerge, 236 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 2: is that Walter Aikman, the New Border, apparently was also 237 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 2: sleeping with Alice. 238 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: Alice. 239 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 2: There has even been speculation as to whether or not 240 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 2: she was some part time sex worker. Wow, although I've 241 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 2: found nothing in the press of the day to indicate that, 242 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 2: nor in any of the case files. That's modern speculation. 243 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 2: But nonetheless, the sheriff put forward the motive that Sandy 244 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 2: Sheffield had at that party seen in the other room 245 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 2: Alice hugging and kissing Walter Aikman, the Border. This went 246 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 2: into this rage Sandy Sheffield and a friend of his name, 247 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 2: Frank Turney, who was a carpenter. Sandy, by the way, 248 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,959 Speaker 2: I neglected to mention Sandy worked at a brewery as 249 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 2: a mechanic, fixing the ice machines, making sure that they 250 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 2: were always in working order at the Magnolia Brewery downtown Houston. 251 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 2: Sandy and Frank Turney left the party about nine pm 252 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 2: according to their calculations, and there were a lot of 253 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: people still left that, like I said, broke up and 254 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 2: then Gus went out for his beer. The sheriff held 255 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 2: Sandy Sheffield in jail about a week and admitted they 256 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 2: had no physical evidence whatsoever. At this point they had 257 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 2: not even found a murder weapon, so they released him. 258 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 2: He had retained a lawyer, a guy named James B. Brockman, 259 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 2: who was, without a doubt, the top criminal attorney in Texas. 260 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: How is that possible that a blue collar guy can 261 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: do that in nineteen ten? 262 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 2: Well, Sandy came from money. He may have been from 263 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 2: a blue collar job himself. His full name was Alexander 264 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 2: Horton Sheffield and his family was from Saint Augustine, Texas, 265 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 2: up in East Texas. One of his ancestors, a great 266 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 2: grandfather or grandfather, had been an aide de camp to 267 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 2: Sam Houston at Sanjacento. So they were a long time 268 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 2: Texas family and they had some cash. So presumably that's 269 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: who put up the money to hire Brockmen. Brockman's specialty 270 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 2: throughout his career was self defense, but this certainly was 271 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 2: not one of those cases that would present them way. 272 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 2: But nonetheless, Brockman had an astounding record of getting people 273 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: off for murders, and in some cases what would seem 274 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 2: otherwise a pretty open and shut case, he gets out 275 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: of jail and held a news conference, which meant all 276 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 2: print media on the porch of his house. If you 277 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: can imagine, these reporters gathered around. Sheffield's married and has children, 278 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 2: and his wife is standing there, his lawyer is standing there. 279 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 2: He's holding his daughter, Mildred in his arms. It's this 280 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 2: wonderful American scene. His daughter's squirming and looking up at 281 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 2: her dad, and he says, you know, I figured the 282 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 2: sheriffs would come around and arrest me eventually. I knew 283 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: they were going to but I didn't have anything to 284 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 2: do with it. I'm totally innocent. 285 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: And he's denying the affair too. 286 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 2: I'm assuming the papers were unclear about that. The fact 287 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 2: that he openly admitted he knew they were going to 288 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 2: come after him leads me to believe that maybe he 289 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: wasn't completely denying the affair. Much like the neighbors had 290 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: spoken of the Schultz being a happy couple. Neighbors speak 291 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 2: of the Sheffields. The wife is named Katherine. They speak 292 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 2: of them as being a happy couple, although several people 293 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: say that Catherine is one of the phrases was pathetically clingy. 294 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 2: So that also, if you look at the human nature, 295 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 2: may mean that she knew that her husband was having 296 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 2: affairs and really wanted to hang on to him. A 297 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 2: year goes by before they take any further action. The 298 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 2: case is just kind of in limbo. In the meantime, 299 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 2: the sheriffs had searched everything but the railroad itself had 300 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 2: railroad detectives. They went back and looked again, searched the 301 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 2: same place as the sheriffs had, and this time they 302 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 2: turned up both a pistol in the little garden shed 303 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 2: that supposedly the sheriffs had missed, and using a grappling 304 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 2: hook down the well, which again allegedly the sheriffs had 305 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 2: already searched, they pulled up a hatchet. It was a 306 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 2: garden tool with a blunt side and a sharp hatchet. 307 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: I was wondering about that. I just did a case 308 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: about a hatchet that was like that too. And I thought, okay, 309 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: that's a convenient blunt and sharp instrument. 310 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 2: At the same time, it had been sitting in several 311 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 2: feet of water, and yet the newspapers reported that there 312 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 2: was still blood on it, which I find impossible to 313 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 2: believe if it had been sitting down there for at 314 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 2: that point two to three weeks. 315 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: Now, at that point in nineteen ten, what could a 316 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: pathologist or what could anyone a forensic scientists do with blood? 317 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 1: Is that even blood typing at this point, No, they 318 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: couldn't even prove it wasn't cowblood. I mean, how could 319 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: they prove it was anything? 320 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 2: Right exactly? But the forensics our standards looking back on it, 321 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 2: this has CSI fail written all over it. The sheriff 322 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 2: when they first jimmied that window open there was a 323 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 2: bloody thumbprint on the windowsill. Now, what was not unknown 324 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 2: at that point as fingerprint evidence that had started back 325 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 2: in France and then Britain in the nineteen oh four Worlds. 326 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,360 Speaker 2: At Saint Louis there was a Scotland yard fingerprint expert 327 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: that showed up and that was a big draw at 328 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 2: the fair. People would come in and they'd learned that 329 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 2: fingerprints are all different a lot of police departments were 330 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 2: using fingerprint evidence. Evidently the Harris County sheriffs were not 331 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 2: among them. That never got mentioned again. Any physical evidence 332 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 2: that may have been there disappeared very quickly because in 333 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 2: order to identify them, the sheriffs lined the bodies up 334 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 2: out in the parlor, so they moved them from their 335 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 2: original place, which was of course not the original killing 336 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 2: place to begin with, but they lined them up out 337 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 2: in the parlor. The neighbor, a woman named missus Jenkins, 338 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 2: the one who had called the sheriff in the first place, 339 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 2: came over and identified who everybody was. Before the families came. 340 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:44,719 Speaker 2: They moved them all out in the front yard so 341 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 2: they could have more space. So they at this point 342 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 2: the bodies had been moved in some cases four times. 343 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 1: Oh wow. 344 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 2: So the family comes by and identify the bodies, and 345 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 2: because they were in some decomposition at that point, they 346 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 2: were all buried within twenty four hour. Interestingly, the Hodgkins family, 347 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 2: which was Alice's parents, did not let her be buried 348 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 2: with her husband and children. So that's one of those 349 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 2: indicators that they knew that this was not a good marriage, 350 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: or in their mind, a real marriage. She was buried 351 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 2: at one cemetery, Hollywood Cemetery here in town. The Schultzes 352 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 2: were all buried at what was then called the German 353 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 2: Cemetery it's now Washington Cemetery next to Glenwood, and that 354 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 2: includes the kids. Gus was the seventh son and there 355 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 2: were eleven children in the family. The Schultzes are a 356 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 2: large family. 357 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: Big German American family. 358 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 2: It sounds like yes, indeed, and they took over everything 359 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 2: they came in, wanted nothing to do with the crime scene. 360 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 2: They emptied out all the clothes, all the furniture, piled 361 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 2: at the front yard and burned it. Whatever evidence might 362 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 2: have been there that's gone. 363 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: It sounds like the sheriff's apartment just lost control of 364 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 1: this case. 365 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 2: There's one other thing that jess cements that after they 366 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 2: had done whatever looking around they initially did, the house 367 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 2: was left open and the neighbors who were curious. The 368 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 2: paper talks about people either going three blocks out of 369 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 2: their way to avoid walking past the murder house or 370 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 2: going in it or going in it, and at some 371 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: points there were people lined up out front waiting to 372 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 2: tromp through and look at the bloodstains. So any hope 373 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 2: of any physical evidence that was not gathered the first 374 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 2: time is long gone, which makes it really I don't 375 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 2: know if i'd use the word suspect, but certainly interesting. 376 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 2: They found this pistol and what they thought was the 377 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 2: murder weapon two or three weeks after the fact, and 378 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 2: after everything had been searched. All the railroads employed detectives. 379 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 2: Part of their job would be to kick off what 380 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 2: at the time were called hobos riding the rails. How 381 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 2: much they really knew about investigative technique tough to say. 382 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: I wonder why they didn't call on the Texas Rangers, 383 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: who would have been available for them at that point. 384 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 2: I think that was the same time period where the 385 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 2: Mexican Revolution had just started, and it's the front end 386 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 2: of that time period where the Rangers are committing their 387 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 2: own atrocities all along the Rio Grande. So they were 388 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 2: pretty tied up. 389 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: Are you thinking at this point, either the Sheriff's department 390 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 1: is horrible and missed this blunt and sharp object, the 391 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: axe that was at the bottom of the well, and 392 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: then missed it pistol. 393 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 2: Well, the pistol was in the garden shed. 394 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: Did they miss these or were they planted. 395 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 2: Tough to say. The pistol in the garden shed would 396 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 2: have been almost impossible to miss. It's described as sitting 397 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 2: on a shelf days before the sheriffs had searched the outbuildings. 398 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 2: Now they said they had searched the well, but it's 399 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 2: certainly possible that using a grappling hook and several feet 400 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 2: of water, they had neglected to pull up the hatchet. 401 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: And also, if this is five people who have been 402 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 1: bludgeoned today, there's no gun involved. And this is Texas 403 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: where everybody seems to have guns, especially in the nineteen 404 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds. Maybe they didn't think that this was 405 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: this pistol or this gun was an important piece of information, right. 406 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 2: Well, that's possible. The three guns that were under the 407 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 2: house were two rifles and a shotgun. They determined that 408 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 2: they had not been fired in a long time, months 409 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 2: or even years, and the fact that they were under 410 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 2: the house. The significance that was assigned to that was 411 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 2: that they leaned against the door, and that they thought 412 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 2: the killer was somebody familiar with the house who had 413 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 2: broken in and disposed of those guns to put them 414 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 2: out of reach. Should the sleeping people, specifically, the two 415 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 2: young men. Yeah, should they awake that way, they couldn't 416 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 2: go for the guns that were leaning against the door. 417 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,239 Speaker 2: That was the speculation from the Sheriff's department about that. 418 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 2: But you're right, they weren't shot. But still I would 419 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 2: imagine there would have been some mention. They wouldn't have 420 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 2: just found a pistol and left it there going back. 421 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: I hate to ask God some questions, but do we 422 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: really think that Gus does not know that his wife 423 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: has had affairs with particularly the person that is living 424 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: with them. 425 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 2: I don't know the answer to that, and there's a 426 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 2: lot of things that we will never know the answer, 427 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 2: and that gets into what happens a year down the 428 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 2: road in June of nineteen eleven, So at this point 429 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,479 Speaker 2: we're well over a year past the discovery of the bodies, 430 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 2: past the murders. Frank Turney supposedly told one of his 431 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 2: relatives that on the night of the murder, about midnight 432 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 2: or night after the party, that he had gone with 433 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 2: Sandy Sheffield and at the time a seventeen year old 434 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 2: woman named Lydia Howell, who had been one of the 435 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 2: people at the party that Sandy had Lydia and Frank 436 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 2: go with him back to the house and stand guard 437 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 2: outside while he crawled through a window and went inside, 438 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 2: or went through the door. He may have locked the 439 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 2: doors under this scenario on his way out and then 440 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,479 Speaker 2: crawled out a window. Supposedly they stood guard outside. Now 441 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 2: keep in mind, this is pitch black. There are no 442 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,479 Speaker 2: street lights. There were in downtown Houston, but there are 443 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 2: no street lights in the heights at that point, certainly 444 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 2: not in this neighborhood. The relative that Frank Turney allegedly 445 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 2: told about this went to the Houston Police, not their jurisdiction, 446 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 2: but that's who he went to. They immediately dispatched these 447 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 2: two detectives. The story gets a little murky here as 448 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 2: to whether they picked up Frank Turney first and had 449 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 2: him arrange a meeting with Sandy Sheffield, or whether coincidentally 450 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 2: he was going to meet with Sandy Sheffield. Either way, 451 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 2: the two detectives, in what would have been the nineteen 452 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 2: ten version of wiretapping, I suppose, went out and they 453 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 2: laid on their bellies in a ditch oh next to 454 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 2: where Tourney and Sheffield were talking. 455 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: So they were eavesdropping essentially. 456 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,479 Speaker 2: Yes, so you have two HPD detectives laying on their 457 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 2: bellies in this ditch while Tourney is asking Sheffield, what 458 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 2: are we going to do? And Sheffield says nothing. You 459 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 2: keep your mouth shut. The only other person that could 460 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 2: say anything is somewhere that she can't talk, and he 461 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 2: allegedly is referring to Lydia Howell, who at that point 462 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 2: had been committed to an asylum. Oh no, draw your 463 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 2: own conclusions again. The sheriff's conclusion was that the pressure 464 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 2: of knowing she was involved in this grisly five person 465 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 2: homicide is what drove her to the insane asylum. She 466 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 2: is in San Antonio at what was the Southwest Insane 467 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 2: Asylum was the name of it. I believe Frank Turney 468 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 2: and Sandy Sheffield are immediately indicted on five counts of murder. 469 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 2: They pretty quickly, which Tourney to five counts of accessory. 470 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 2: Before the fact. Tourney never addresses the fact that if 471 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 2: Sheffield had gone in there and committed these acts, that 472 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 2: he would have been covered in the worst possible gore 473 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 2: When he came out of the house. 474 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: Was there blood just everywhere? There must have been five 475 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: people and potentially an axe. I mean, my goodness, it 476 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: must have just gone everywhere everywhere. 477 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 2: They were beaten. All of them were beaten around the head. 478 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 2: It was as horrid a description as you can possibly imagine. 479 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 2: And they talked about blood in that bedroom, especially being 480 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 2: halfway up to the ceiling. 481 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: Well the small house of course, right. 482 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 2: And covering everything. And then there's at least one of 483 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 2: them is killed in another room. Horrible, So that's never addressed. 484 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 2: Sheffield again, his family has some kind of means he 485 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 2: is bonded out of jail. Tourney is not. Tourney stays 486 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,239 Speaker 2: in jail for the better part of a year. They 487 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 2: finally end up dropping the charges against him entirely, and 488 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 2: the DA issues a statement that says we can't use 489 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,360 Speaker 2: the evidence we have, meaning the confession, not the way 490 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 2: it was obtained. He stops just short of saying that 491 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 2: the police beat a confession out of him. He very 492 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 2: plainly says, we can't use this. 493 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: That is just in case people don't know. I did 494 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: not know until I started researching American Sherlock. Beating a 495 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: suspect is the third degree. When police in the turn 496 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: of the century, in the nineteen hundreds did it many times. 497 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 2: Well, you know, looking back, the solve rate on homicides 498 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 2: certainly in Harris County, but nationwide the solve rate is 499 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 2: really low, less than twenty five percent. That jumped dramatically 500 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 2: when everybody started using fingerprint evidence, But prior to that time, 501 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 2: unless they caught somebody in the act, or unless they 502 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 2: had a hand it yeah, or had a really really 503 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 2: good witness or two, there was not much that they 504 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 2: could do, especially when they're up against lawyers like James Brockman. 505 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 2: Sheffield ended up staying under indictment for five counts of 506 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 2: murder until May of nineteen thirteen, and they dropped all 507 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 2: of the indictments. They had never found any physical evidence 508 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 2: that tied him directly to this. It's also very telling. 509 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 2: The newspapers in Houston did not even mention they had 510 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 2: dropped the indictments. There was no statement. The paper in 511 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 2: Galveston ran a little tiny, about a two inch story 512 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 2: saying that the indictments had been dropped the aftermath for 513 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 2: these three that were accused of the crime. In Sheffield's case, 514 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 2: I think it's very telling. He stayed married after he 515 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 2: got out. He went back to work at the Magnolia Brewery. 516 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 2: When prohibition hit. He lost the job at the brewery, 517 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 2: but ended up working at an ice plant, so still 518 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 2: something related. He never moved away. You would think somebody 519 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 2: that had that kind of accusation would have left town 520 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 2: to try to start over. Stayed married, raised three children, 521 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 2: ended up living on the East side of Houston, and 522 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 2: lived until nineteen sixty eight without ever moving away. Lydia 523 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 2: Howe got out of the institution, moved back to the 524 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 2: Heights and lived there for several more years with her parents, 525 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 2: and then she just dropped off the planet. For all 526 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 2: of my research, I looked in surrounding counties to try 527 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 2: to see if she got married. I mean, that's the 528 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 2: usual thing where a woman's name surname changed. I did 529 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 2: not find a record of her being married, so I 530 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 2: don't know what happened to her. Frank Turney is just 531 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 2: the sad story out of this. Out of those three, 532 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 2: apparently became a very bitter old man. Also stayed in Houston, 533 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 2: lived up on the north side in a semi rural 534 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 2: area at the time, had a bunch of kids, The 535 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 2: Attorney kids had a family, the Bigs children that were 536 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 2: their arch enemies in the neighborhood, and apparently argued and 537 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,959 Speaker 2: fought with the other kids all the time, and in 538 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,239 Speaker 2: nineteen forty one, they were having an argument over a 539 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: toy who it belonged to, and Frank Turney apparently came 540 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 2: out of the house with a shotgun to stop the 541 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 2: kids from fighting with one another. The oldest Biggs boy, 542 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 2: Marvin Biggs, who was sixteen at the time, went in 543 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 2: his house and came out with a rifle. 544 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: So the two Remember why I said about everybody in 545 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: Texas having guns, Yeah, especially in that time period. 546 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 2: So Tourney fires a shot against the side of his 547 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 2: own garage a load of buckshot to scare the kids 548 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 2: and break them up, and Marvin Biggs goes to shoot 549 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 2: Frank Turney with the rifle and instead killed his own 550 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 2: little sister. Oh no, Frank Turney was arrested briefly for 551 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 2: instigating the whole thing by bringing the gun out to 552 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 2: begin with, but they ended up letting him go. He 553 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 2: died in nineteen fifty so another child killed, not directly 554 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 2: by him. But it's just a sad story all the 555 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 2: way around. The interesting PostScript to all of this Bill James, 556 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:57,959 Speaker 2: who is the famous baseball statistical guy that created saber 557 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 2: metrics in baseball. All of these the plane of statistical research. 558 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 2: He and his daughter wrote a book a few years 559 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 2: ago about a railroad serial killer, and they obviously used 560 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 2: the chapter that I wrote for my book, and they 561 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 2: followed the story. But they readily say that this is 562 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 2: the one that convinces them that this railroad serial killer 563 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 2: more than any other case they found. I'm not convinced well, 564 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 2: because in their rundown they ignore some of the local stories. 565 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 2: It's a tough one to figure out. 566 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: Well, what do you think I mean, if we lay 567 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: this out, You've got five people whose lives are entangled 568 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: to kids, which you've got a wife and a husband 569 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: and somebody she's sleeping with, and then this other boyfriend. 570 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,479 Speaker 1: And this is bloody and it's personal. But I do 571 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: have some questions. Why kill the kids, particularly the five 572 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,479 Speaker 1: month old who is not going to be away? And 573 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: really is is it a three year old? Is the 574 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: other one is three? Yes? These are not material witness? 575 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: Is really? What to you? Does that say? 576 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 2: It says enormous rage or somebody blood list? Yes, like 577 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 2: the serial killer. The James book talks about that one 578 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 2: of the threads that they see is a pre pubescent girl. 579 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 2: I think that's a bit of a stretch. We're talking 580 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: about a three year. 581 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: Old, right, that's not pre pubescent. 582 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, yeah, not really exactly. We're talking 583 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,479 Speaker 2: about a three year old. There's no sexual assault on 584 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 2: any of them. 585 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: The railway killer had sexual assaulted everybody else. 586 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,239 Speaker 2: I don't know if that's a correct statement or not, 587 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 2: but it's one of the threads that they talk about. 588 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 2: They talk about the pre pubescent girls, and they talk 589 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 2: about their faces being covered. The only face being covered 590 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 2: was Walter Aikman, who was on top of the pile 591 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 2: and had mosquito netting over his head. In Houston at 592 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 2: that time, if the night was warm at all, the 593 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 2: windows would have been open a little bit. They would 594 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 2: have been under mosquito netting. Window screens were not really 595 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 2: a thing. So it's very likely that if he was 596 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 2: sleeping in the kid's bed because he was sick, that 597 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 2: when he stood up that he was under mosquito netting. 598 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 2: I think it may be a little bit of a 599 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 2: stretch to ascribe that to some sort of signature of 600 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 2: a serial killer. I can't rule it out entirely. Like 601 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 2: I said, there's no resolution to this case. 602 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: Did Historically these two families, Alice's family and Guss's family. 603 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: Did they get along? I mean, it's a German family 604 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: versus what American. 605 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 2: Or Hodgkins English or were. 606 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: These families that were happy? Do you know about the 607 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: marriage to begin with? I know, I'm kind of going 608 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: backwards here. 609 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a very fair question. The fact 610 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 2: that the Hodgkins had their daughter buried separately would indicate 611 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 2: that they absolutely did not get along with Gus. The 612 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 2: other thing that is really just mind blowing to me 613 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 2: the Hodgkin parents. Alice's parents lived in a little community 614 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 2: called Brunner, which is basically, for those that know the 615 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 2: city of Houston, it's basically I ten or Buffalo Bayou 616 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 2: and Shepherd Drive. So we're talking again way inside the loop. 617 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 2: At the time, it was a separate community just south 618 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 2: of the Heights. And yet they had never seen, by 619 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 2: their own admission, the five month old infant son and 620 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 2: a strange family. 621 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,280 Speaker 1: This seems like what we had just said, classic overkill, 622 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: very personal. I know this is an odd question, but 623 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: I ask odd questions all the time on this podcast. 624 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: Was somebody more brutalized than the others. Was there any 625 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: sort of focus or did everybody receive the same amount 626 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: of rage. 627 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 2: Everybody seemed to receive a similar amount of rage. Gus 628 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 2: was killed first. If Eikman had been sick, then maybe 629 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 2: Gus was the bigger threat. I mean, obviously those are 630 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 2: two guys in their twenties. They're the ones that are 631 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 2: going to be physically threatening to whoever comes in there. 632 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 2: Gus is killed first, and he's on the bottom of 633 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 2: the pile. If that motive that the shrif ufs ascribe 634 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 2: to the whole thing is true, that Sheffield is the 635 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 2: killer and did that because he saw Alice with Walter Aikman, 636 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 2: then you would think that Alice and Aikman would be 637 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 2: the main focus. Unfortunately, the coroners report the inquest none 638 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 2: of it really specified other than that they were brutally beaten, 639 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,760 Speaker 2: mostly in the face and front of the head. Gus 640 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 2: had a major wound, probably the killing wound was on 641 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 2: the back of. 642 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: His head, but they didn't indicate defensive wounds on any 643 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: of them. 644 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 2: Was there a fight A couple of them put up 645 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:39,760 Speaker 2: some sort of defense. Again, unfortunately they didn't specify which ones. 646 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 2: You would have to assume that it's the adults. 647 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 1: Did this railway killer attack families or was it usually 648 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 1: by themselves, people by themselves. 649 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,280 Speaker 2: It was families or family groups, a portion of families. 650 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: That just seems so crazy to me. I mean, just like, 651 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 1: what a risk. 652 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,439 Speaker 2: You know, they're both plausible in a sense, and yet 653 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 2: they both have things that indicate to me that it 654 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 2: could be the other side. 655 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: For Sheffield. What is your cons on why this doesn't 656 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: make any sense that he did it for Sheffield. 657 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 2: Top of the list for me is the fact that 658 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 2: he stayed in town. Even if you had not done it, 659 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 2: If you're accused of this, you finally get the cloud 660 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 2: out from over your head move away. 661 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: I mean, come on, he doesn't have to, right. 662 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 2: You're going to walk down the street for the rest 663 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 2: of your life in this city and people are going 664 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 2: to be looking going, yeah, that's he got away with it. 665 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 2: But that's the guy that killed five people. 666 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: Do you think that happened? Do you think people still 667 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: suspected him no matter what till he died? 668 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 3: Oh? 669 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 2: I think they had to look at virtually every other 670 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 2: case where somebody gets away with gets an acquittaled, there's 671 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 2: always somebody that thinks that they were let off on 672 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 2: a technicality or you know whatever. There's always somebody that's 673 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 2: convinced that the jury or judge got it wrong. 674 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: What piece of information do you need in order for 675 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 1: you to be kind of swayed one way or the 676 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 1: other or any direction, or if there's like mystery person number. 677 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 2: Three who did this, I'd never even honestly thought about 678 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 2: mystery person number three. Thanks for bringing that up. 679 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:09,319 Speaker 1: You never know. 680 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 2: I don't know the answer to that question. I looked 681 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 2: at everything that was available here, and the primary source 682 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 2: are the newspaper stories. There really was not a lot 683 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 2: of case file. They tried to actually bring this to 684 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 2: a trial twice and did not succeed. The first time 685 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,800 Speaker 2: it was the defense that they were missing from the courtroom. 686 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 2: The second time it came up, there was a prosecution witness, 687 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 2: a woman named Sally McClure, who supposedly had overheard a 688 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 2: conversation where Sandy Sheffield had threatened to do harm or 689 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 2: kill the Schultz family. Whether or not she ever resurfaced 690 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 2: or not, I don't know, but she was not there 691 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 2: the second time they tried to bring this to trial, 692 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 2: and the prosecution asked for and got a continuance, and 693 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 2: then ultimately the charges were all dropped against Sheffield, and 694 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 2: it never came up to trial, so we don't know 695 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 2: whether Sally McClure's evidence was compelling or totally hanging by 696 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 2: a thread. If I could go back in time, certainly 697 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 2: have lessons to impart to the Sheriff's department. Yeah, next time, 698 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,399 Speaker 2: and look at that bloody thumb print. But as far 699 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 2: as being able to cover the story, looking back on it, 700 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,879 Speaker 2: you have to be careful not to put too much 701 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 2: stock in every single thing that's written, because, like you said, 702 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 2: some of it is going to be for sensationalism. And 703 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 2: there's no doubt that reporters were scouring the town to 704 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 2: find those connections between Sandy Sheffield and Alice Schultz, but 705 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:42,919 Speaker 2: they didn't have to look hard. 706 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,320 Speaker 1: So we don't know if Sandy Sheffield got away with murder. 707 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 2: That's correct. 708 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, did he survive? 709 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,800 Speaker 3: He did, wow, And he remembers everything, including really important 710 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 3: details that contradict her account to the police, which is 711 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 3: that he recalls seeing his daughter chatting softly like a 712 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 3: friend with one of the intruders, and her arms are 713 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 3: not tied behind her back while she was led around 714 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:14,840 Speaker 3: the house. 715 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,800 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my books, 716 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 1: American Sherlock and Death in the year this has been 717 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: an exactly right tenfold more Media Production. Alexis and Morosi 718 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,919 Speaker 1: is our producer, Andrew Eapan is our sound designer. Ellen 719 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,320 Speaker 1: Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis Heath does the composition, 720 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: Nick Toga did the artwork, and ILSA Brink designed the website. 721 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:50,320 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. 722 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 723 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. If you are 724 00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 1: an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, go to 725 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,720 Speaker 1: midrold slash ads. And if you know of a historical 726 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 1: true crime story that could use some attention from the 727 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 1: crew at tenfold more. Wicked, email us at info at tenfoldmore. 728 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,720 Speaker 1: Wicked dot com, listen, subscribe and leave us a review 729 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts.