1 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe wisn't thal Joe? Do 3 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: you remember when you said you were going to base 4 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 1: your entire identity on repealing the Foreign Dredge Act of 5 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: nineteen o six, Right, yeah, I do so. I remember 6 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: we did an episode very recently about your cargo that's 7 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: still stuck on this ship outside Baltimore, and one of 8 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: the things that came up was that there is this 9 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: law from nineteen o six that prevents foreign dredging equipment 10 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 1: from operating in the United States. The United States doesn't 11 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: have a whole lot of high power dredging equipment. And 12 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: I found that really wild, and so I jokingly said, hey, 13 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: I was going to make that my whole identity, and 14 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: only half jokingly said, now we have to do an 15 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: episode on the Foreign Drudging Act of nineteen sex. I mean, 16 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: I don't think any of those should be jokes anymore. 17 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm into it. Let's start. And this is 18 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: not a joke to you at all. No, I stuff 19 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,559 Speaker 1: absolutely so. I have a personal interest in the health 20 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: of the US dredging industry. Let's put it that way. 21 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: Because all of my belongings are currently stuck on ever Forward, 22 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: this giant container ship that ran into the mud bank 23 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: in the Chesapeake Bay, it's still stuck there. There are 24 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: dredgers at work. They're going to unload all the containers 25 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: and see if they can refloat it. But again, one 26 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: of the things that's emerged from this entire incident is, 27 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: I guess years decades of under investment in the US 28 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: dredging industry, so that we actually don't have a lot 29 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: of dredging capacity. And our previous guest who was talking 30 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: about this, cell Mercogliano. Again, he has a great YouTube 31 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: channel if you're interested in what's going on with the 32 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: ever Forward, But he was saying that the dredgers that 33 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: are on the scene of the ever Forward right now 34 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: can move about sixty cubic yards of mud in each 35 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: you know, every time they sort of drudge the bottom, 36 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: whereas other types of drudgers, international judgers, the kind that 37 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: they had on scene with the Ever Given when it 38 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: was stuck in the Suez Canal, those can move seventy 39 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: thousand cubic yards of material in one hour. So that 40 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: gives you an insight into the different levels of drudging capacity. 41 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: We're talking about the other thing, and that is just 42 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: a wild divergence. That was the aspect that blew my mind. 43 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: And the fact that maybe a contributing factor to the 44 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: lack of drudging capacity as a law that was over 45 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: a century year old, that blew my mind. But you know, 46 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: as we've sort of looked into this, and we have 47 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: been talking about dudging within the context of freeing the 48 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: ship and the one in the Suez last year. The 49 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,519 Speaker 1: other thing that is, it may be that a lot 50 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: of infrastructure issues in the United States, when we talk 51 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: about constrained capacity at the ports, when we talk about 52 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: the fact that US ports don't necessarily have the capacity 53 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 1: to handle easily the world's biggest ships, part of that 54 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: may have to do with dredging. Absolutely. And you know, 55 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: we've been building these ships bigger and bigger, and at 56 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: the same time, the poor infrastructure hasn't grown alongside it. 57 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: The dredging infrastructure hasn't grown alongside it either. So it 58 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: is not just a problem of particular interest to me. 59 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: It's a problem that we should all be focused on. 60 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: And so here is an episode dedicated to the Foreign 61 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: Dredge Act of nineteen o six, and I can't wait. Yeah, 62 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: we we really do have the perfect guest for this one. 63 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: So we are going to be speaking with Howard Gutman. 64 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: He is the managing director of the Gutman Group consultancy 65 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: and also the former US Ambassador to Belgium. We're also 66 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: going to be speaking with Andrew Durant. He is a 67 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: managing director at Samuel's International Associates, another consultancy. But they're 68 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: going to be able to give us, you know, the 69 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: the pro repealing the Foreign Dredge Act. We're going to 70 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: have to do afterward, probably like keep the Foreign Dredge 71 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: Jack just out of fairness. But yeah, I'm very excited about. Okay, 72 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: let's do it. Howard and Andrew, welcome to the show. 73 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: Pleas for me here, So why don't we begin with 74 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: the very basic stuff? What is the Foreign Dudge Act 75 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: of nineteen o six and what happened in nineteen o 76 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: six or earlier to make the US think that it 77 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: only wants to have dredgers that are built and crewed 78 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: by Americans. And so what happened in nineteen o six 79 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: actually starts with what happened in and that is that 80 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:41,799 Speaker 1: there was a huge storm that hit Galveston, Texas directly. 81 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: Galveston at that time was, if I'm not mistaken, the 82 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: largest city in Texas. It was a thriving port town, 83 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: and the flood that ensued essentially wiped the town out, 84 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: killed and it maybe e to sixteen thousand people and 85 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: was an absolute catastrophe. So the town fathers decided that 86 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 1: what they needed to do was rebuilt. But they weren't 87 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: going to rebuild at the current elevation because they knew 88 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: it would just be a matter of time before another 89 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: storm would hit Galveston and do the same thing all 90 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: over again. So they decided they were going to raise 91 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: the town by ten ft. And so in order to 92 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: do that, they needed a massive drudging capacity that did 93 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: not exist in the United States. They put they put 94 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: this job up forbid. There were two bidders. The winning 95 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: bidder designed and built hopper drudges, which what we can 96 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: talk about in a little bit about the distinction between 97 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,799 Speaker 1: the different kinds of drudges. But they designed and began 98 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,559 Speaker 1: to build hopper drudges that would be able to carry 99 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: this job out. And so as that project got started, 100 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: uh in nineteen in nineteen o three, you know, for 101 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: Eventually there was a concern not from the shipbuilders themselves, 102 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: but from the Commissioner of Customs that hey, maybe this 103 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: is somehow gonna this is going to create a problem 104 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 1: for US. We need to put in place restrictions that 105 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: say that these stretches can only be built in U 106 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: S shipyards. And so by nineteen o six, the protectionist 107 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: argument that this has to be these ships have to 108 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: be built in the United States had one the day, 109 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: and that legislation was signed into law by Theodore Roosevelt. 110 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: Can you just explain that a little bit for the 111 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: What specifically was the concern was that there is this 112 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: investment in domestic dredging, and the concern was that the 113 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: foreign competition to domestic dredging would undercut the market. Like 114 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,799 Speaker 1: what was the I'm trying to wrap my head around 115 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: the perceived threat that this law addresses. So the concern 116 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: was that somehow in in dredging up the sand, that 117 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: they were going to put it on barges and they 118 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: might take those barges somewhere else and use the sand 119 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: in another port or another location in the US. So 120 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: they were stealing US sand. Was the stealing US sand 121 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: became game kind of the concern, But as it evolved, 122 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: what really carried the day was that we should be 123 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: building these these US brudges in the United States. What 124 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: is the state of the U S dredging industry now 125 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: and how does it compare with the rest of the world. 126 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: So we had decades of protectionism and this law in 127 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: place mandating that dredgers be built in the U S 128 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: and crewed by Americans. What has been the result? So 129 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: today the thirty one largest dredgers in the world are 130 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: owned by two Belgian and two Dutch companies, the subsidiaries 131 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: of which the U S subsidiaries of which already are 132 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: major American companies. They build all the off shore wind mills, 133 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,679 Speaker 1: so those same companies are allowed to work in these 134 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: waters in the US waters building the offshore windmills, but 135 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: they also own the thirty one largest dredgers in the world, 136 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: many over forty thod cubic meters, so four times as 137 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: large as any vessel that exists in the US. The 138 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: US is trying to meet the dredge demand, to dredge 139 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: it sports and to do coastal protection. When it has 140 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: of the top fifty dredgers in the world, it has 141 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: three of them. It has number thirty two and then 142 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: two others in the top fifty. The rest are by 143 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: these large companies that are already American companies. They're allowed 144 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: to build the off shore wind mills. They create a 145 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: lot of jobs in America. They just can't alongside dig 146 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: in the sand because of this nineteen oh six law, 147 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: and it caused America millions or tens of millions of 148 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: dollars of jobs and billions of dollars. If you are 149 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: in Savannah, you spent over a billion dollars for report 150 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: deepening project that would have cost under five hundred million. 151 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: And if you are in Virginia right now, you are 152 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: spending it was supposed to be three d and fifty million, 153 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,079 Speaker 1: it's now four hundred and fifty million for a project 154 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: that should cost hundreds of millions less. So what do 155 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,839 Speaker 1: you actually walk us through the math here? A little 156 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: bit more specifically, because we've talked on this show a 157 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 1: number of times about the ports and pork bottlenecks and 158 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: pork capacity and the issue and we talked about this 159 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: in the intro, the issue of these very large ships 160 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: that are getting bigger and bigger and the difficulty that 161 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: they have entering U s ports, and we see at 162 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: the Port of Los Angeles, but obviously otherwise when you 163 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: throw out these numbers at US, explain why constrained US 164 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: dredge capacity adds so much more to the cost of 165 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: port expansions and thus makes it such that our ports 166 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: aren't as big, high capacity as they could be. So 167 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: let's take Houston for example. Houston should be the most 168 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: important port for America because producing oil and gas in 169 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: Houston is cheaper than producing it in the country of Georgia, 170 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,439 Speaker 1: for example. But Boston right now is getting its gas 171 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: from the country of Georgia than it is from Houston 172 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: because delivered the greatest country in the world cannot get 173 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: its gas delivered to Boston cheaper than it can get 174 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 1: it delivered from the country of Georgia because the port 175 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 1: in Houston is broken. What happened was they had two lanes. 176 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: At one time. Container ships would pass, tankers going in, 177 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: containers going out Andy. And I went to the port 178 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 1: and said, you've got less than a year left before 179 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: it's gonna get so narrow and so shallow that ships 180 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: will no longer be able to pass over two years 181 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: ago that came true. One of the ships containers coming 182 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: in refused to pass a tanker coming out. The port 183 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: of Houston was reduced to one wane and we said 184 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: this could be dredged in a year to the capacities 185 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: to allow the deepest tankers, the post Panamax tankers and 186 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: containers to go freely into Houston. That would reduce export 187 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 1: costs more than it would make our manufacturing goods and 188 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: agricultural goods going out of Houston competitive by more than 189 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: competitive by fient, and it would make our oil and 190 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: gas exports, let's say the Europe when you needed for 191 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: the Ukraine and Russia, way cheaper. It would make us 192 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,719 Speaker 1: a major energy exporter. All you have to do is 193 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: dredge Houston. There's enough money right now because if you 194 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 1: use one of the state of the art dredgers that 195 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: dredge the rest of the world, the cost is less 196 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: than half and the time to do it is less 197 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: than a third. So this can be done right right now. 198 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: And in support Director favored us doing that, the fight 199 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 1: men to protect the the Dredge Act of nineteen o six. 200 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 1: So instead of doing that, the Texas legislature met and 201 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: passed the law restricting contain large container ships from entering 202 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: the port of Houston to one a week so they 203 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 1: don't block the oil ships coming out. So now the 204 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: greatest country in the world has a law preventing container 205 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: ships from entering one of its greatest ports because they 206 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: cannot get them in. So if we just dredged Euston 207 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: at half the cost in the third time, that would 208 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: create and support over one point six million new American 209 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: jobs by lowering the costs of exports by over fifteen percent, 210 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: it would change our energy security picture. And by the way, 211 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: since we know Houston is gonna flood anyway, we've seen 212 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 1: what happens in Houston. These dredges that the state of 213 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: the art dredges. When they do a dredge project, they 214 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: would do the coastal protection project that would also protect Euston. 215 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,079 Speaker 1: It's called the Kelike project. But there's no way that 216 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: could ever be done with US dredgers, not in the 217 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: next twenty or thirty years. Is the issue this law 218 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 1: and the restrictions around who can dredge, or is the 219 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: issue under investment in that particular industry. So, you know, 220 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 1: we do have an American dredging industry, but it seems 221 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: like it hasn't actually grown that much, even though it 222 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: is mandated to do all this work and doesn't necessarily 223 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,839 Speaker 1: have competition to do it. It's who can dredge. It's 224 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: not under investment that these ships that we're talking about, 225 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,479 Speaker 1: they're not built in China. They're built in the Netherlands, 226 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 1: where the cost of labor and the cost of energy 227 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: is higher. These aren't Chief ships or the like. We 228 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: don't have a shipyard in the US that could build 229 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,719 Speaker 1: one of these dredges. We don't have the technology to 230 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 1: know how, and we don't have the investment because there's 231 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: only three companies that own basically three vessels that or 232 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: even can do a port dredging. So those three get 233 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: all the business. They're happy if we have to wait 234 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: twenty five years for report to be done, it's still 235 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: their work. So the three company protection is m is 236 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 1: what's swimmiting it if in fact you open the dredge 237 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: law and allow these big ships to come in and 238 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: join the all the marine work they're doing for off 239 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: shore wind these companies work all union, they have signed 240 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: project labor agreements. The foreign companies, it would be all 241 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: union of American employment with the same exact workers, but 242 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: we would have coastal protection projects and poort deepning projects 243 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: being done for half the cost, So we could actually 244 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: have dredges available to do Houston and Corpus and Browns. 245 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: Will eliminate the supply chain problem that we have that 246 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: we can't get ships into our ports. We were the 247 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: costs of energy and our exports, and we would still 248 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: have ships to do coastal protection. There is a plan 249 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: right now, as I mentioned, According to center Schumer, ninety 250 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: thousand New Yorkers have to be relocated from south of 251 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: Wall Street by twenty fifty, that's twenty eight years. In 252 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: the next twenty eight years, Wall Street will be flooded. 253 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: There are two proposals to address that. A ten billion 254 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: dollar project wall and building sevent dred acres onto Lower Manhattan. 255 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: We would have Manhattan become fifteen percent larger. Both projects 256 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: are routine for the rest of the world. There have 257 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: been projects adding acres, so projects that are four times 258 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: larger in the rest of the world done by these dredgers. 259 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: Can you imagine the value of adding fifteen percent to 260 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: Lower Manhattan the value of that project, It's the money 261 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: would pays for itself. Center Schumer was told when he 262 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: went to the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers, we 263 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: will not have the dredging capacity nor the money to 264 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: build the wall, let alone the additional acreage onto Lower Manhattan. 265 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: We don't have a coastal protection policy. I so, you know, 266 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: I've I've I've read about and heard about some of 267 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: these ideas to add land to Manhattan, and I was like, Oh, 268 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: that's fanciful. That's never gonna happen. It's just like something 269 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: that people like to think about. But hey, it is 270 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: interesting that I guess it could actually happen. But be 271 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: it comes back to this Act of six, the lack 272 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: of dredging capacity. Now, before we move on, I want 273 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: to ask one more question. You mentioned the fact that 274 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: cheap oil and gas from Houston isn't making its way 275 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: by ship to Boston, where they're instead important gas from 276 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: the country of Georgia. I was under the impression that 277 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: that had something to do with the Jones Act. And 278 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: that's like, it seems like the two laws often are 279 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: associated with each other, but hey, can you sort of 280 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: talk about how the two laws relate, And you also 281 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: say that that one is more well known. It seems 282 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: to be a little bit more controversial. You say that 283 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: you could we could get value from repealing the Dredge 284 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 1: Act without necessarily repealing the Jones Act. In fact, appealing 285 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: the Dredge Act protects the Jones Act. The companies were 286 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: talking about, our construction companies, they don't own a transportation ship, 287 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 1: so the Jones Act protects transportation of goods and people 288 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,959 Speaker 1: in US waters. That's a transportation issue, and that's very 289 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: important in this country, and nobody is arguing to touch 290 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: that in the least. We can build the ships to 291 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: transport people and goods if they can get in and 292 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: out of our ports. We're not talking about touching the 293 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: transportation industry, and the law currently proposed to repeal the 294 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: Dredge Act would not touch the Jones Act if that 295 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: law passed. What we're talking about is the construction industry. 296 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: We're talking about port contractors. The issue is getting ships 297 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: that are the right size into our port. Obviously, we 298 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: can't get them in at being three times larger than 299 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: the standard ship if they're going to get stuck in 300 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: Baltimore on the bottom of the port. So what we 301 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: need to is get it deeper once they're there. That 302 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: will make up most of the cost. The Dredge Act 303 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: can be amended, and the proposal to do so that's 304 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: currently in front of the Senate would do so without 305 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: touching the Jones Act. But what happens here is the 306 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: three or four companies that are the small you know, 307 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: companies to five thousand people who work in dredging in 308 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: the US, almost all of whom would continue to work 309 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: in dredging, just on a lot larger projects with the 310 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,959 Speaker 1: same project labor agreements. The owners of those companies say, oh, 311 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: they're really seeking to attack the Jones Act, and they 312 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: bring in all the shipping interests to protect the Dredge 313 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 1: Act when they have nothing to do with one another. 314 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: M what are the other impediments to amending or repealing 315 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: the Dredge Act? I mean, I imagine environmental concerns must 316 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: figure in their one way or another, and for instance, 317 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: the situation with the ever forward. I know people are 318 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: starting to worry about the impact on on crabbing season, 319 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: which is coming up in Maryland. And look, I've already 320 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: declared my interest in higher dredging capacity because I love 321 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: my couch, but I also love Maryland crab cakes. And 322 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: you know, ideally I would have both. Ideally I would 323 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: sit on my couch while eating crab cakes. But you know, 324 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 1: what are the environmental concerns around dredging and how would 325 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: repealing the act affect the health of US coasts? Andy, 326 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: why do you tell them about Miami? Sure? Well, so 327 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: a few a few things, Tracy. The first is that, yeah, 328 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: if you look at actually the modern drudges that are 329 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: that are being built in in UH and European shipyards 330 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: that are being used around the world, unfortunately just not 331 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: in the United States, you see a couple of differences 332 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: that actually make them more environmentally friendly. The first is 333 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: that the newest than most modern dredges are using l 334 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: n G as opposed to marine diesels, so they're they're 335 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: a manting a lot a lot less emissions as they're working. 336 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: The second issue, and this was a real tragedy in Miami, 337 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: is is because the dredges that we use are so 338 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: called cutter drudges, but they weren't powerful enough to to 339 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: chew basically through some of the rock that they needed 340 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: to remove in order to create a deeper channel for 341 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: cruise ships. They had to use blastic and so in 342 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: blasting that creates a lot of turbidity. That's you know, 343 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: a lot of sand, a lot of debris kind of 344 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: gets moved around that wound up on coral and it 345 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: actually wound up bleaching and killing a lot of the 346 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: coral and creating a huge environmental disaster. If you have 347 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: again the new state of the art Hopper dredges, you 348 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 1: can control much more for to a bidity. You can 349 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: therefore do it without disturbing the vegetation and the coral 350 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: that's around it. And so that's why you can see, 351 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: for example, that that the companies that were taught that 352 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: we'd like to be able to bring into the US 353 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: do very sensitive environmental projects, say along ports in Australia 354 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 1: that are adjacent to the Great Barrier reef with with 355 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: very intensive environmental monitoring done by the Australian government, by 356 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 1: mng O S and by the companies that are doing 357 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:39,239 Speaker 1: the work themselves. So um, the other point that I make, 358 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: as long as we're on the environment, is that in 359 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: a lot of cases, uh, these same dredges are actually 360 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: very important if you're going to create coastal features or 361 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,360 Speaker 1: if you're going to try to restore wetlands, that will 362 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:54,719 Speaker 1: do a couple of things. One, it will serve as 363 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: a barrier with when you have major storms that are 364 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: that are heading or population centers. But the second and 365 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: more pervasive is that they will create barriers from salt 366 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: water incursion, like the kind of incursion that we're seeing 367 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: in Louisiana, which you know, once you get salt water 368 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: into an environment, it's it's gonna it's gonna devastate the 369 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: natural environment that was there. Can you talk a little 370 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: bit more about the two types of dredgers and the 371 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 1: different technologies, because I think there's interesting. You know, our 372 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: our listeners definitely are interested in the law and investment 373 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: and stuff, but actually hearing the two different approaches to 374 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: dredging would be really helpful. And then these new dredges 375 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: or the state of the art dredges, what do they 376 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: you know, what do they have? What what makes them unique? 377 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: So I would say the easiest way to look think 378 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: about it is is you've got hopper dredges, which is 379 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 1: essentially state of the art, which is used again in 380 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: the rest of the world. That's that's what most people 381 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: will have in their main fleet. I think of them 382 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: as very large vacuum cleaners. So they're gonna they're gonna 383 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: vacuum material up that needs to be moved. They're going 384 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: to store that material in the hull of the ship, 385 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: and then they're gonna sail off with that material and 386 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: they're either going to go to a deposit site that's 387 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: off shore and the bottom of the hull is going 388 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: to open up and that material is going to fall 389 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: down into into the place that the coast guard has 390 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: has said it should be put, or they're going to 391 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: use that material and they're going to use it to 392 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: create They're going to replenish your beach, or they're gonna 393 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: they're gonna build a barrier island, or they'll do something 394 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: else that's called beneficially used. So those are hopper dredges. Again, 395 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: if you look around at the rest of the world 396 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: and see what they're using for their for their jobs, 397 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: most of the most of that work is going to 398 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: be done using hopper dredge. The other type, and the 399 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: type that the US industry is very reliant upon, are 400 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: called counter suction dredges. Think of them as kind of 401 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: big grinders that are just sort of chewing through the 402 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: soil and chewing through the rock. They're they're sucking it 403 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 1: up but they're sucking it up and putting it onto barges. 404 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: So then you've got to move. Just like we're talking 405 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: about with the ever forward right now, that material is 406 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: going up onto barges, then those barges have to be 407 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: have to be towed away, and you have to It's 408 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 1: just a longer, more laborious, and more expensive process. But Joe, 409 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: don't get confused that this is a difference in approach 410 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: and what regardless of whether it's cutters or hoppers, if 411 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: there's if you don't have if you only have three 412 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 1: dredges in your country that the world would even consider 413 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: to use for a project like this, and you are 414 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: using things that are meant for small rivers. The issue 415 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: is what difference would it mean for America if you 416 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: wet these thirty one dredgers that are bigger than anything 417 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: we have, that are more environmentally friendly than anything we 418 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 1: have crewed by American labor, the same America who crew 419 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,959 Speaker 1: who cruise the construction vessels for these same companies when 420 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: they build off shore wind the project labor agreements with 421 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: American labor, What difference would it be whether it's cutter 422 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: or hopper to the to what we could achieve in America, 423 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 1: we could fix the supply chain by opening up these 424 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: ports that are long awaiting each of the projects. If 425 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 1: I were in Virginia and I just waste wasting two 426 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: hundred million dollars of my taxpayer money because the same 427 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: union people could be doing the same exact job for 428 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: two hundred million less in the same waters by the 429 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: company that's already building my offshore wind project anyway, So 430 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: it's the same labor in the same orders, it's just 431 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: a different and who owns the company and I that's 432 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: cost me two hundred million more, I'd be upset or 433 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: or the est it is doing really more ivy upset um. 434 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: And so the question is whether it's cutter or it's hopper. 435 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: We need more capacity. We have endless projects, and we 436 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: have projects for that will keep all of the US 437 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: register in existence now busy. It's just we can we 438 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: can get to these other projects. We can do coastal 439 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 1: protection in Virginia. When they are done with that project 440 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: of dredging the port, they will still have to relocate 441 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: the naval base in Norfolk because they did not have 442 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: the capacity nor the money to come up with the 443 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: project that would deepen the port in Virginia and save 444 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: the naval base from flooding. Right now, the policy is 445 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: where boots the naval base and Norfolk floods, so they 446 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: are going to still have to move it. That project 447 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: could be done in a way, presumably we have to 448 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: have be designed in a way that the naval base 449 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't have to be relocated because we would be able 450 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: to do coastal protection when we did our our poor drection. 451 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: I still don't quite understand, you know. So I take 452 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: the point that by far the most advanced judges that 453 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: we have available are made and owned by companies in 454 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: Belgium or in the Netherlands. But I don't understand why 455 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: the US can't compete on this. And I guess you know, 456 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: clearly the Netherlands has a long history of building canals 457 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,959 Speaker 1: and dredging and a lot of expertise in this kind 458 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: of thing, and so does Belgium. But why can't the 459 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: US catch up with its domestic industry. What's the sort 460 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: of the issue there are the roadblock? That's a great question, 461 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: and I think I think the answer really kind of 462 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: comes back to what do you see your market as? Right? 463 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: So the US dredging market right now, maybe it's a 464 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 1: billion dollars. Maybe with with coastal protection becoming more urgent, 465 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: and you know, even beach replenishment becoming a much more 466 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 1: are of kind of an every year thing if you're 467 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: going to save your tourist season in North Carolina. The 468 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: markets may be more than a billion, but it's not 469 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 1: a huge market. And in fact, the global drudging market 470 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: is probably about twenty billion dollars. So if you're only 471 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: looking at the US market and you're saying it's a 472 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: billion dollars a year um, then you make investment decisions 473 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: based on a billion dollar market. If, on the other hand, 474 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 1: you're saying we are we the the European dredging companies 475 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: look at it and say, this is a global market. 476 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: We can work in any country in the world except 477 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: for the United States. Right now, while plenty of countries 478 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: have various restrictions on maritime shipping that are akin to 479 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: address the Jones Act, no country in the world, except 480 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: for China, which has its own massive dredging fleet, has 481 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: any restrictions at all on allowing foreign dredgers to come 482 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: in and clean up their harbors deep in them. Modern 483 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: uners them allow that economy to be more competitive. The 484 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: US is the only one that has that kind of restriction. 485 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: So for for the European companies, they look at a 486 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: world market and say, okay, it's about a twenty billion 487 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: dollar a year market, it's going to be growing. We're 488 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: going to invest to be able to compete and win 489 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: projects all around the world. And in fact, that's what 490 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: they're doing. And that's why between these four European dredging 491 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: companies that want to be allowed to work in the US, 492 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: if you look at global open bid dredging projects, they're 493 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: going to be winning of all the projects year after year. 494 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: They compete a lot with each other. It's a very 495 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: competitive global market. That's what they're looking at. They're looking 496 00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: at it as a world market and so their rights 497 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: eising their investment and right sizing their fleet. Whereas here 498 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: in the US, and you really have to ask, you know, 499 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: you have to go back thirty years to basically try 500 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: to figure out why did the US industry stop investing 501 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: in its streateging industry and why do we have not 502 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: only ships that are really very small, but also ships 503 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: that are really very old as well, So why have 504 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: we underinvested? I think The answer is because they're looking 505 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: at a protected market. They're saying it's one billion dollars. 506 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:36,719 Speaker 1: They're saying of the U. S. Army Corps dredging bids 507 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: are are single bid contracts or so therefore, of all 508 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: the jobs, it's either nobody else bids or one other 509 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: company bids. So it's a very small market. There are 510 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: only really three companies that compete for projects here in 511 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: the US, and so you know, for them, maybe it's 512 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: not this isn't such a big deal. They can continue 513 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: to kind of plug along with with what they have 514 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: built a new drudge every four or five years or so. 515 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: Eventually you have to retire the old dredges so that 516 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: the capacity doesn't really change. But that's why, in my opinion, 517 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: they haven't kept up. And now that they're thirty or 518 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 1: forty years behind, and they don't have any experience in 519 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: bidding for international projects anywhere outside the United States, you know, 520 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: it's very tough for them to suddenly say that they're 521 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: going to catch up. And Joe and Tracy to think, now, well, 522 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: why doesn't Blackrock or Blackstone or Apollo just started investing 523 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: in forty thou cubic meter ships UM we build a 524 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: dredge every three or four years, there is not to 525 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: qualify under the Dredge Act. It has to be built 526 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: in the US. There is not a shipyard that could 527 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: repair right now a forty six thousand cubic metership. When, if, if, 528 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: and when the Dredge Act is finally amended to let 529 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: these ships in, these Belgian means who have invested a 530 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: ton in the US series will start investing into these 531 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: shipyards so they can do little construction work needed to 532 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: allow these shipyards to repair these ships, which would be 533 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: part of what we would which would happen if the 534 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: legislation opened, So the boom to the U. S shipyards 535 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: would be massive from opening the dredging market. The repair 536 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: and maintenance work would produce far more work than the 537 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: new dredgers and the ancillary vessel work, the tugs, the 538 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: barges that you need to surround you would be a 539 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: boon for U. S shipyards. That's what's happened with the 540 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: US windmill industry. The one ship that actually puts the 541 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: monopy the foundation and the monopyle on the foundation to 542 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: build the windmill that we don't have the capacity to do. 543 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 1: It's being done by the Europeans, but now the ship 544 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: orders have increased to do all the ancillary services. One 545 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: of the American dredge companies is building a new ship 546 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: to drop rocks at windmill sites where the windmills themselves 547 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: are built by these European companies. Dominion is building a 548 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: five million dollars ship that will put the install the 549 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: turbines on monopause, the last step in it. Because we 550 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: now have a windmill industry. The windmill itself will be 551 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: built by one of these four Belgian companies, but the 552 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: last step the turbine installation. So just in the last 553 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: two years, the U s shipbuilding industry has had a 554 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: boom from the ancillary vessels needed to support the offshore 555 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: wind industry, which is anchored by the same four companies. 556 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: The same exact thing would happen if you repealed the 557 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: Foreign Tredge Act and had them do the main work 558 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: with the ancillary American vessels. But I'm curious, from the 559 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: perspective of either repealing or amending the nineteen o six 560 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: Act and your experience, how much is the difficulty domestic 561 00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: opposition from the existing US dredging industry, which I think 562 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: you mentioned is about five thousand employees, so it's not huge. 563 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: How much is opposition versus how much is indifference because 564 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: it doesn't look like much gets done these days in 565 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: d C regardless, and so how much should The challenge 566 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,360 Speaker 1: is just most people in d C probably do not 567 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: have that much appetite given everything else that's going on 568 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: to address. It's opposition because they make two arguments that 569 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,760 Speaker 1: this is going to repeal the Jones Act. We've already 570 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: addressed that it has nothing to do with the transportation sector. 571 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: It's the construction sector. And they threaten the unions that 572 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: these companies will come in, they'll do they'll do the 573 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 1: Port of Houston and corpus them, they'll leave, and then 574 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 1: you'll be without us the American dredging companies. But in 575 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: fact we now know that there will be offstra windmill 576 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: projects at least through so these companies have become big 577 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: US subsidiaries with US offices, US labor agreements. Of the 578 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: five thousand people you said are in the industry, almost 579 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: all continue to work on the same exact projects of 580 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: the Virginia. At the end of the Virginia project were 581 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: open bid and that last seventy million were bid for 582 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,439 Speaker 1: thirty million, not seventy million, for example, and we save 583 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: forty million in Virginia, the same people would do the job. 584 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 1: It's the same labor agreement, the same unions. It would 585 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: just be on the vessel that was much more efficient 586 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: for it, and we could take that and use the 587 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 1: savings to design how to save the Port of Norfolk. 588 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,280 Speaker 1: So it's purely it appears to be truly the domestic 589 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: because if there was indifference, a project that will save 590 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: ninety thousand New Yorkers from having to relocate by building 591 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: seven ftent more to Manhattan, that is of interest to 592 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: the unions, It is of interest to every real estate developer. 593 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: Can you imagine if Manhattan had fifteen percent more real 594 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 1: estate to to have commerce on what that would be 595 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: Just the World Trade Center rebuilding was a massive boom 596 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: for the construction unions and for New York. Think about 597 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 1: that at of New Manhattan, what that would be valued. 598 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 1: That project is eminently doable. There are eight projects in 599 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: the world bigger than that project that have already been 600 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,320 Speaker 1: done in less than three years UM. So that project 601 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: is doable. But there's not a chance that could be 602 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: done in the next forty years with the dredging capacity 603 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: of the dredging technology that currently exists. Uh, and therefore, 604 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: without changing the Foreign Dredge Act, can I just ask 605 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: on the Jones Act my understanding, And you know, I 606 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: fully admit my understanding is only just developing right now, 607 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: so it's probably not worth much. But my understanding is 608 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 1: that hopper judges do have to be Jones Act compliance 609 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: since they end up transporting you know, sound and mud 610 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:03,720 Speaker 1: from their dredging activities, which then falls under the Jones Act. 611 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: So here's you, well, yes and no. So the proposals 612 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: to amend the Dredge Act simply say, for purposes of 613 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: this Act, the movement of sand in the construction project 614 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: is not transportation. Sure, if you wanted to ship new 615 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: bags of sand from New York to Savannah and put 616 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,800 Speaker 1: it on a barge and ship him, that's transportation. This 617 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: is construction. It's like saying when a kid plays in 618 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 1: a sandbox, he's engaging in transportation. Digging is not transportation. 619 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: So it's this easy to fix. You just have to 620 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: on the legislation that amends the Dredge Act, you just 621 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: have to say, for purpose of any other legislation named 622 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: with the Jones Act. If sand happens to move because 623 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: you dig it's in construction, that's not considered transportation. So 624 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: when we're talking about construction, sand moving because you're digging 625 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: it in construction, if you just say that's not transportation, 626 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,479 Speaker 1: that's construction, that leads to Jones Act perfectly in place 627 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: while amending the Dredge Act. How much you know. Another 628 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: thing you're talking about wind, But another big energy story 629 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: in the United States is ellen Gy and in particular 630 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: Ellergy exports. In particular, they're Llergy exports to Europe to 631 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: theoretically allow Germany and other countries to wean themselves off 632 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: of Russian natural gas. To what degree is lack of 633 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: dredging capacity a contributor to lack of export capacity for 634 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: ellen Gy? Joe? You know, as you know, there are 635 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: a couple of things, and I think for Ellergy, one 636 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: of the bigger concerns right now is just how many 637 00:38:55,560 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: Ellergy character carriers exist that are not under long term 638 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 1: contract that could mobilize to carry that supply chain. That 639 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: huge difference in supply chain. And you also get into 640 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:15,320 Speaker 1: export terminals. If we go back to Houston right for example, again, 641 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: you know what's what's happened in Baltimore right now is 642 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: obviously we should see not just as a tragedy for 643 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 1: Tracy's and belongings, we should also see that as a 644 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: real cautionary tale. Okay, because if that happens in Houston, 645 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 1: where again, as we mentioned, you know you had can 646 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: you imagine we're the greatest country in the world. Texas 647 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: takes pride. Everything is bigger in Texas. And what are 648 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,799 Speaker 1: they doing in Texas two years ago? They're they're essentially saying, 649 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,359 Speaker 1: here's how we're going to divide up a shrinking pie 650 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 1: in the port of Houston because we can't we can't 651 00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: deepen and expand the shipping chain helm to allow modern 652 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:09,320 Speaker 1: container ships and and modern tankers right L and G tankers, 653 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 1: oil tankers to pass each other safely in the shipping channel. 654 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: So the fact that we have to do that, right 655 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 1: that we have to pass the law that regulates how 656 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 1: much of this this resource can be used when the 657 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 1: rest of the world. By the way, while we're trying 658 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:33,320 Speaker 1: to get to fifty feet as as we've discussed container ships, 659 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 1: tanker ships, everything is getting bigger because the economics support 660 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 1: being bigger as opposed to being smaller. Other ports are 661 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: getting down to sixty five feet, they're getting down to 662 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: seventy ft. I mean, we're trying to get to fifty 663 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: ft and it's a herculean task and Houston is probably 664 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 1: gonna be you know, Houston's gonna be years before they 665 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,920 Speaker 1: can get there. Meanwhile, the rest of the world is 666 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 1: moving forward. So so I think it does have an 667 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,800 Speaker 1: impact and how we're going to supply Europe going forward 668 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 1: to help it meet its energy needs. But I don't 669 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 1: think it is that's not the leading issue. I think 670 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,759 Speaker 1: that's you know, that's about the Corpus, the project and 671 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,720 Speaker 1: Corpus that's even deeper than the fifty well in in Corpus, 672 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 1: what what they wanted to do is to build a 673 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: loading facility for the largest crude carriers. The largest crude 674 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: carriers in the world require a hundred feet of draft. 675 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,239 Speaker 1: The only way you're ever going to get down to 676 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 1: a hundred feet in the US is if you have 677 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: if you allow these these European dredging companies to come 678 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: in and work on projects. There's absolutely no way that 679 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,800 Speaker 1: we can use all of the resources that we have 680 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,439 Speaker 1: to deal with to get that one large crude carrier bill. 681 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,760 Speaker 1: Because keep in mind, because the US industry is so small, 682 00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:01,240 Speaker 1: anytime there's a major storm and a poor gets blocked 683 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,359 Speaker 1: in by by silts, right that's washed down safe from 684 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: the Mississippi. This happens in the Port of New Orleans 685 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 1: all the time. They will have to that the Army 686 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 1: Corps has the right to call the U S. Dredgers 687 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: away from so called capital dredging right where you're actually 688 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: trying to deepen afford to get it down to fifty. 689 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: They will say, we have an emergency. We have what 690 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 1: they call showing, So we have sholing that's taken place 691 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 1: that's reducing the clearance in New Orleans. So we're calling 692 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,920 Speaker 1: you off the project in Savannah. You've now got a 693 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: sail over to New Orleans. You've got to deal with 694 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 1: this urgent problem. And then if there's time before we 695 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 1: get into turtle season, then you can go back to 696 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: Savannah and you can get back to that project. But 697 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,359 Speaker 1: if if if the timing doesn't work out, then that's 698 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 1: another year that's lost. So that's that's that's the situation 699 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,839 Speaker 1: that we're dealing with, that we have such limited resources 700 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: that we can't do aintenance dredging. We can't respond to 701 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 1: natural huge disasters like Hurricane Harvey, which was a huge disaster, 702 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: not only certainly for the people of Houston and of Texas, 703 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: also brought a lot of debris and a lot of 704 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,239 Speaker 1: material into the Port of Houston. We just don't have 705 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 1: the capacity to deal with natural disasters. At the same time, 706 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:28,239 Speaker 1: we tried to do capital dredging to improve and modernize 707 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,360 Speaker 1: our ports. Van it was bid. It was supposed to 708 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,040 Speaker 1: be a seven hundred million dollar project. Was the lowest 709 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,440 Speaker 1: did the Europeans that said they would do it for 710 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:42,440 Speaker 1: guaranteed four million because of the difference in their capacity. 711 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 1: But it was supposed to be seven hundred million, and 712 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,759 Speaker 1: the project came in and over a billion one. Some 713 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 1: of the dredges have been called off to go do 714 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 1: shoaling elsewhere, and by the time they come back costs 715 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,320 Speaker 1: sir rup, so we end up spending I believe it 716 00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: was a billion one for a project that should have 717 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,839 Speaker 1: been four hundred million and took three times as long 718 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,719 Speaker 1: Savannah got done. But taking all that time and money, 719 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 1: that prevents us using those resources elsewhere. There is plenty 720 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 1: to keep The major American dredging companies busy and to 721 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 1: greatly increase the labor that's working for them, and continues 722 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: under the same exact project labor agreements, the same unions, 723 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: under the same project labor agreements doing the rest of 724 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:27,239 Speaker 1: the dredging on ships that are built, you know, meant 725 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 1: to do these kinds of projects while our shipyards boom 726 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: from the ancillary vessels. Can I just ask totally hypothetical 727 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 1: question here, But if I were to call up a 728 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,959 Speaker 1: company like van Ord and say I want to hire 729 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,799 Speaker 1: your your very best dredger, your hopper dredger or whatever, 730 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,080 Speaker 1: and I wanted to dig out the ever forward, Let's 731 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,799 Speaker 1: let's pretend that they said yes. Um, I assume they 732 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 1: would say no, mostly because I wouldn't be able to 733 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 1: pay them, but for other reasons too. What would happen, 734 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: Like what happens if you actually end up in contravention 735 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:05,840 Speaker 1: of the six Judging Act the dredge, Yeah, the dredge, 736 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:11,840 Speaker 1: They seize the drudge, yea okay, and forfeit you forfeit 737 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: the dredge unless unless they get a waiver, they're not 738 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,160 Speaker 1: going to work here. And Tracy, we're willing to play 739 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,360 Speaker 1: a good word in with you for you with the 740 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: Van Nords, but I don't think your household is worth 741 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: the dredge. No, no, they probably want to keep that. Well, 742 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:30,239 Speaker 1: Howard and Andrew, that was a great recap of the 743 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: H six Drudge Act, and we really appreciate you coming 744 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,799 Speaker 1: on to explain not to us. Thank you, thanks so much. 745 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:53,960 Speaker 1: Stay says, all right, well, Joe, are you prepared to 746 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,560 Speaker 1: make repealing the Drudge Act of six the center of 747 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 1: your new identity? You know? Original I just thought it 748 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,239 Speaker 1: was this sort of like amusing little law, kind of 749 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,000 Speaker 1: a quasi irrelevancy. But I thought they made a pretty 750 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 1: compelling case that it's actually pretty important, and I do 751 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:15,880 Speaker 1: think it's very interesting, even setting aside dredges. This tension 752 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,960 Speaker 1: of how do you nurture a domestic industry? This is 753 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 1: like actually really important beyond dredges, like and it comes 754 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,880 Speaker 1: up in the semiconductor conversation, So how do you nurture 755 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 1: a domestic industry without making it so that it's uncompetitive 756 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,440 Speaker 1: and weak? And so you could imagine a sort of 757 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,719 Speaker 1: effort to say, yeah again, semi conductors or something. You 758 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,280 Speaker 1: boost domestic players, but if there's sort of a market 759 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,960 Speaker 1: that's some competitive, they can fall behind it's a very 760 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,799 Speaker 1: separate question, but it does raise some really interesting things 761 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:49,200 Speaker 1: about this broader project of building up domestic industry well totally, 762 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,760 Speaker 1: and also the idea that Howard and Andrew they touched 763 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,279 Speaker 1: on this, but this idea that US dredgers view it 764 00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,480 Speaker 1: as this sort of one note market, right, It's just 765 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,520 Speaker 1: a mary that they can dredge in and that's a 766 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,440 Speaker 1: limited pool of money, whereas someone who's over in Belgium 767 00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:08,040 Speaker 1: or the Netherlands is going to see it as this 768 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:10,600 Speaker 1: global market. The other thing that's kind of crazy to 769 00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,480 Speaker 1: me is just the idea in general that because a 770 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,840 Speaker 1: customs official was worried about foreign dredgers taking away Texans 771 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,040 Speaker 1: sand in the early nineteen hundreds, that more than a 772 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,399 Speaker 1: hundred years later, it's like how the world works, right, yeah, yeah, 773 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 1: but it's sort of it's an interesting cause and effect, 774 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,840 Speaker 1: you know, even like I went on YouTube before this 775 00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,279 Speaker 1: and I will watch some videos of like the two 776 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,880 Speaker 1: different types of dredgers. But it's interesting to think about, 777 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,640 Speaker 1: like even something that kind of doesn't seem that high tech, 778 00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:41,880 Speaker 1: like a big vacuum cleaner, it's like there is a 779 00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,560 Speaker 1: level of know how that exists at European companies, at 780 00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,280 Speaker 1: least so they claim. But it may be true, especially 781 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,400 Speaker 1: if they're calling on them for technical support that doesn't exist. 782 00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,480 Speaker 1: So again, you know, semi conductors are one thing, but 783 00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:58,640 Speaker 1: even just something like digging up sand, there's technical knowledge 784 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,799 Speaker 1: and compartmentalized knowledge. If that is not a globally diffused right, 785 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,160 Speaker 1: Also kind of amazing that the foreign dredgers can't actually 786 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,759 Speaker 1: dig anything up here, but they can be consulted for 787 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,080 Speaker 1: their knowledge and expertise. All right, um, well here is 788 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,000 Speaker 1: full of them. I wouldn't I wouldn't take the call, Okay, 789 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:15,840 Speaker 1: but we do have to do another one. We have 790 00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,120 Speaker 1: to get the domestic perspective. I mean, look, I fully 791 00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:22,200 Speaker 1: declared my interest on this topic, but yes we should. 792 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:24,839 Speaker 1: Can I just say one more thing, Tracy, I am 793 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:26,960 Speaker 1: very sorry that you don't have your coach, but I 794 00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,880 Speaker 1: am very happy that we're getting lots of content. So 795 00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,440 Speaker 1: I'm I'm like secretly kind of happy about you know, 796 00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 1: it's all fun in games until they start on loading 797 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:41,360 Speaker 1: the containers and my one like drops into the sea. Yeah. Alright, 798 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,279 Speaker 1: fingers crossed. Everyone. Shall we leave it there? Let's leave 799 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,600 Speaker 1: it there. This has been another episode of the all 800 00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:49,279 Speaker 1: thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on 801 00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,080 Speaker 1: Twitter at Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Hasn't Thought. You 802 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,920 Speaker 1: can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwarts. Follow our 803 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:59,200 Speaker 1: producer Carmen Rodriguez on Twitter at Carmen Arman. Followed the 804 00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Kind Of podcast Francesco Levi at Francesco Today, and 805 00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,000 Speaker 1: check out all of our podcasts at Bloomberg under the 806 00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:11,560 Speaker 1: handle at podcasts. Thanks for listening. Hey, there are All 807 00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,680 Speaker 1: Thoughts listeners. We are very excited to let you know 808 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:19,600 Speaker 1: that All Thoughts is nominated for a Webby Award. You know, Tracy, 809 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,200 Speaker 1: I'm not normally like a big awards person or get 810 00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:25,880 Speaker 1: excited about that, but now that I saw that we 811 00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:29,719 Speaker 1: were nominated for the Webby for Best Business Podcast, and 812 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,560 Speaker 1: suddenly I'm feeling very competitive and I want you really 813 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,759 Speaker 1: want it? Yeah? Okay, Well, on that note, listeners, if 814 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,160 Speaker 1: you enjoy a lots, if you like what we do, 815 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:40,760 Speaker 1: we would really appreciate it. If you take two minutes 816 00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,880 Speaker 1: of your time and head over to vote dot Webby 817 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,040 Speaker 1: Awards dot com. You can find A Thoughts in a 818 00:49:47,360 --> 00:50:04,960 Speaker 1: Business Podcast category. Three years it